Hydro Electricity in Wales
Dan mckenzie
build that, it had a section on the hydro electric plant under a mountain in
Wales
Does any one know where it is ?
Is a visit possible ?
Who runs it ?
TIA
Dan Mckenzie
Peterborough, England.
David Eyre
Presumably it's Dinorwig - loads of info at:
http://www.fhc.co.uk/HI-RES/SITEFS.HTM
Niall
<daniel....@lineone.net> wrote:
>I have just watched a programme on the discovery channel called how did they
>build that, it had a section on the hydro electric plant under a mountain in
>Wales
>Does any one know where it is ?
>Is a visit possible ?
>Who runs it ?
>
Dinorwic, or possibly Trawsfynnd (sp?), near Blaenau Festiniog.
There is one in Scotland, under Ben Cruachan, which does allow
visitors on a regular basis; it's a local tourist attraction. "The
hollow mountain".
Used to be owned by Hydro Electric, then SSEB, may now be Scottish
Nuclear as it's actually part of the nuclear system; uses baseload
nuclear power overnight to pump up to the upper loch then generates
for peak demand during the day.
Scottish Tourist Board should have details.
--
Niall
Martin Sylvester
Dan mckenzie <daniel....@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:3VIZ2.6010$5K1...@news-reader.bt.net...
> I have just watched a programme on the discovery channel called how did
they
> build that, it had a section on the hydro electric plant under a mountain
in
> Wales
> Does any one know where it is ?
Between Llanberis and Dinorwic.
> Is a visit possible ?
Yes, and I found it very enjoyable.
> Who runs it ?
Not sure. It's branded as "Electric Mountain" as a tourist attraction.
In case it's helpful to you, I believe their phone number is 01286 870636.
Martin.
--
I do not intend to imply that any views expressed above represent the policy
of any organisation, nor do I warrant any information to be accurate.
URL: http://www.sylvesternet.freeserve.co.uk/martin/ for: Daria books/video;
Parish of St Mary on the Sea & St John Fisher, Grimsby, UK; Catholic books.
Martin Sylvester
I wrote in message news:7h8qlu$hsj$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Who runs it ?
>
> Not sure. It's branded as "Electric Mountain" as a tourist attraction.
>
> In case it's helpful to you, I believe their phone number is 01286 870636.
I've since discovered that it's run by First Hydro, and there's a website:
http://www.electricmountain.co.uk/
HTH.
Dave Liquorice
> Dinorwic, or possibly Trawsfynnd (sp?), near Blaenau Festiniog.
Dinorwic, Trawsfyndd (sp?) is a nuclear station, uses the lake as a
heatsink. Was it not in here that some very interesting facts and figures
about Dinorwic where posted in the last year?
<later>
Yep:
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:03:35 +0000
Message-ID: <36642167...@cableinet.co.uk>
--
Cheers new...@nexus.demon.co.uk
Dave. Remove "spam" for valid email.
David Eyre
>
> On Mon, 10 May 1999 23:31:22 GMT, Niall wrote:
>
> > Dinorwic, or possibly Trawsfynnd (sp?), near Blaenau Festiniog.
>
> Dinorwic, Trawsfyndd (sp?) is a nuclear station, uses the lake as a
> heatsink. Was it not in here that some very interesting facts and figures
> about Dinorwic where posted in the last year?
>
>
the original writer is probably getting confused with the pumped storage
scheme near Blaenau Festiniog (a small precursor of Dinorwig)
Darrel
No cameras allowed.
10 miles of tunnel,better security than at many a Nuclear Power Station.
I had been told buy a refrigeration engineer that he had taken a wrong turn
inside this place and he had been met buy some sort of military bods.
Anybody know of any thing.
Dan mckenzie wrote in message <3VIZ2.6010$5K1...@news-reader.bt.net>...
>I have just watched a programme on the discovery channel called how did
they
>build that, it had a section on the hydro electric plant under a mountain
in
>Wales
>Does any one know where it is ?
>Is a visit possible ?
John Kenyon
> >build that, it had a section on the hydro electric plant under a mountain in
> >Wales
> >Does any one know where it is ?
> >Is a visit possible ?
> >Who runs it ?
> >
>
Dinorwic is the "big one".
The other one was located near Maentwrog. I cannot remember the
name of the plant, however the Ffestiniog railway passed nearby.
There was a small conventional hydroelectric plant using water
from Llyn Trawsfynydd, which existed before the nuclear plant.
ISTR that the capacity of the lake was increased when the nuclear
plant was built.
I visited Trawsfynydd nuclear, and the pumped storage station
near Maentwrog years ago. - I was still at secondary school, and
the nuclear plant was still feeding the national grid!
I think the year was 1984!
From what I remember years ago the hydro-electric and nuclear plants in
North Wales were all allowing visits either on a tourist attraction or
organised group basis (Dinorwic/Maentrwog/Wylfa/Trawsfyndd).
/John
.x. becomes x for email
Nick McCamley
plant at Trawsfynydd) on http://www.users.globalnet/~mccamley/dinorwic.htm.
National Grid Public Relations produced a superb book entitled 'Dinorwic,
the Electric Mountain' in 1991, which is full of fantastic photographs and
cost only a fiver. I suppose it's still available.
Nick
Nick McCamley
I've put a few pictures of Dinorwic Power station (and some of the nuclear
plant at Trawsfynydd) on
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mccamley/dinorwic.htm.
National Grid Public Relations produced a superb book entitled 'Dinorwic,
the Electric Mountain' in 1991, which is full of fantastic photographs and
cost only a fiver. I suppose it's still available.
Nick
Nick McCamley <ni...@nmccamley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:...
Martin Briscoe
from David Bowie <dbo...@freeuk.com> contains these words:
> For those that are interested, a little more information concerning
> Dinorwic Pumped Storage Power Station :-
I like the story told to me someone in that part of the world. When
they were building the tunnels, they used an explosive "expert" who
used conventional blasting techniques which shattered the slate
causing a collapse. They then asked they unemployed quarrymen to do
the job, they were not interested. So someone more experienced in
working in slate than their "expert" had to brought in from the USA -
at great expense presumably.
Might be apochryphal but has a ring of truth to it.
The stories about someone meeting military, you hear the same about
Cruachan and probably every other deep tunnel in the country.
Martin
David Bowie
> I've put a few pictures of Dinorwic Power station (and some of the nuclear
> plant at Trawsfynydd) on
> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mccamley/dinorwic.htm.
Further details of Dinorwic pumped-storage station follow.
However, and bearing in mind that it's a long time since I was totally
au fait with the British nuclear power plant programme, browsers of this
list should be aware of the not insubstantial link between the MAGNOX
stations and the independant, (circa 1948), procurement/development of
British atomic weapons.
Which Welsh station was it that went horribly wrong ? (Wylfa I suspect).
The extrapolation of containmemt/reactor cycle, whilst aspiring to those
of the AGR's, never quite worked out.
Certainly, I seem to recall that the former CEGB weren't overly keen to
publicise this place...
(Of course, under the privatised banner any scruples must have gone out
of the window).
Any further information most welcome.
Dinorwic:-
For those that are interested, a little more information concerning
Dinorwic Pumped Storage Power Station :-
a) With a total net ("sent out") output of 1,740MW, Dinworic is the
largest Pumped-Storage Power Plant in Europe. To put this in
perspective, the capacity of the largest single generators connected to
the British system is 660Mw, or, in terms of more familiar landmarks,
Dinworic has the capacity of three-and-a-half Batterseas.
b) This full-load generation can be sustained for 5 hours
continuously.(The corresponding period of time to replenish the
headworks reservoir by pumping is some 6 hours).
c) Whilst undeniably impressive, the figure of 10 seconds to full
output corresponds to operation from "Immediate Response" mode. In this
condition, the turbines are spinning in air at synchronous speed,
(compressed air having been used to depress the water level in the
pump/turbine chamber), and the alternators are electrically connected
to the network. The transfer to generation mode can be automatically
initiated by falling frequency relays. The station was designed so that
two of the six units could be used to provide the total standby
capacity in case a major fossil-fired or nuclear unit trips out.
Fossil-fired units simply cannot achieve anything approaching this
no-load to full-load regime. Typically, a partly-loaded, (hence
comparatively inefficient), generator can increase output by 30% within
3 to 5 MINUTES of demand with half of this occurring in the first few
seconds. Gas Turbines can be started and loaded in 2 minutes, but this
is not fast enough to meet all the sudden changes in demand. From a
complete standstill, Dinorwic can achieve full load generation in a
maximum of 90 seconds, (the 10 seconds to full-load from spinning
reserve, however, is the fastest response of all pumped storage schemes
in the world).
d) The combined outputs of any four of the units are sufficient to
control the frequency of the entire National Grid. This may require
starting and stopping the generators up to typically 40 times per day.
Alternatively, any 2, 3, or 4 units can be alternated between running in
the 60% + load range and "spinning reserve" to provide supplemental
frequency control.
e) In "Pumping Mode", each of the six units consumes some 285MW
from the network. In my personal view, the most impressive statistic is
the ability to change, in an emergency, from full-load pumping to
full-load generation in 90 seconds; this involving a complete reversal
of the machines, the revolving mass of which is in the order of 500
tonnes turning at 500rpm.
f) Another design consideration was the ability of Dinorwic to
restart the network upon the occasion of a complete National Grid
failure. Standby Diesel Generators and large Station Batteries are thus
provided to permit of a "Dead Station" start.
g) At Dinworic, not only are the underground works below the levels
of both the upper and lower reservoirs, but the volume of the hydraulic
system between the top reservoir and the pump-turbine inlet valves is
itself greater than the volume of the underground caverns. Failure of
the main inlet pipe would therefore lead to complete flooding of the
Station. Whilst a comprehensive flood warning system and normal and
emergency duty drain pumps are provided, the design standard is far
greater than that of normal hydro plants to counter against
catastrophic failure of any primary high-pressure components.
Sources :- various, primarily =Advances in Power Station Construction=,
C.E.G.B, Pergamon Press, 1986.
> National Grid Public Relations produced a superb book entitled 'Dinorwic,
> the Electric Mountain' in 1991, which is full of fantastic photographs and
> cost only a fiver. I suppose it's still available.
>
Anyone happen to know if the above is still available ??
Richard Hadden
>However, and bearing in mind that it's a long time since I was totally
>au fait with the British nuclear power plant programme, browsers of this
>list should be aware of the not insubstantial link between the MAGNOX
>stations and the independant, (circa 1948), procurement/development of
>British atomic weapons.
>Which Welsh station was it that went horribly wrong ? (Wylfa I suspect).
>The extrapolation of containmemt/reactor cycle, whilst aspiring to those
>of the AGR's, never quite worked out.
>Certainly, I seem to recall that the former CEGB weren't overly keen to
>publicise this place...
Don't quite see how this relates to Dinorwic (Dinorwig?) but it sounds
interesting. What went wrong with Wylfa? Trawsfynydd never really was up to
much and finally shut down in some minor scandal but you never hear of
Wylfa, unless you are my friend's vicar uncle who protests about it and the
pollution.
David Eyre
The connection with Dinorwic/g is that the nuclear power plants can't be
switched on and off very quickly and don't like having the power output
varied much either. They are hence left running all the time on
baseload duty. This means that during periods of low grid electrical
demand (e.g. early hours of the morning) there is abundant power
available at a relatively low marginal cost for pumped storage schemes.
As has been mentioned earlier Dinorwig can respond extremely rapidly to
surges in demand and provide the demand peak lopping that conventional
or nuclear plants can't provide. Also mentioned here was it's role in a
complete "black start" of the grid - (assuming that the water was at the
top of mountain!)- if, heaven forbid, the whole grid system crashed
(like what happened in the NE United States a decade or so ago). Basic
grid functionality would be restored and the conventional plant
synchronised to it and brought on line.
I believe that the problems with Wylfa were during construction (it is
the largest magnox station and uses a pre-stressed concrete pressure
vessel similar to those on the AGR design). Still it couldn't be as
disasterous as Dungeness B - how many years, decades late was it?
David Eyre
weapons.... There are many texts describing the development of both in
the UK. The whole basis of the first nuclear power station at Calder
Hall is linked to the needs of "other programmes"
David Bowie
As coincidence would have it, a few months back I prepared a set of
notes on this very topic, part of which is reproduced below.
Whilst written for the purpose of discussion with some American friends,
responsibility for any errors or omissions is entirely my own.
Hopefully, these notes will be of some interest, and not too far
off-topic for this newsgroup ?
The original decision to progress with a gas-cooled, natural uranium
fueled series of reactors was shaped largely by political events on the
American side of the Atlantic.
In 1946, the US Congress passed the MacMahon Act which made it unlawful
for any American organisations or individuals to disseminate information
on military or industrial atomic energy developments to any foreign
countries, inclusive of the erstwhile war time collaborators, Britain
and Canada.
Wishing to remain, in appearance at least, a world power, a British
Cabinet Committee took the formal decision in January 1947 to carry
unilateral atomic research forward to the point of weapon production.
The most immediately pressing requirement was the creation of a
plutonium reserve, and it was felt that the quickest method of producing
plutonium in sufficient quantity was from natural uranium fueled
reactors; the uranium enrichment process, therefore, being circumvented.
As a matter of priority, two reactors were established on the site of a
former Royal Ordinance Factory on the remote Cumbrian coastline at
Windscale.
The sole purpose of these reactors, or 'piles' as they were then more
appropriately known, was the production of plutonium. Essentially, they
comprised of a pile of graphite moderating building blocks in which the
uranium elements were embedded, penetrated by air cooling passages which
were in direct connection with single, tall reinforced concrete stacks
-- chimneys for the nuclear "furnaces". The only means of cooling, then,
was the airflow induced by the hot reactor core beneath the stack.
A fatal flaw in this design was that the cooling air flow, of course,
contained oxygen -- oxygen which would sustain a fire in the event of
any overheating of the graphite pile. Seven years into the project, such
an uncontrollable fire did in fact occur. Some while back, I read a -
somewhat sobering - report of this incident; amid conditions of virtual
panic, the decision was taken to run the risk of explosive
disintegration of the pile, and the fire was successfully fought by the
means of spraying with ordinary water and restricting the airflow
through the reactor.
Controversy continues to the present day concerning the long-term
effects of this incident -- the radioactive material having been
exhausted out of the stack. Given their coastal location, the two
concrete towers of the Windscale Piles must rank as near the most
sinister appearing structures ever to have stretched skyward ?
(Subsequent to writing this passage, I believe that the Windscale fire
was the subject of a recent reconstructive television documentary. If
anyone saw this programme, was it any good) ?
By the late 1940's, the possibility of power generation from nuclear
reactors was being considered by both the nuclear and the appropriate
conventional engineering industries. This led to a conference being held
in 1950 at the Atomic Research Establishment, Harwell, to investigate
the possibility of obtaining power, in addition to plutonium, from
reactors fueled with natural uranium. The outcome was broad agreement
that it would seem possible to generate such power at a cost comparable
to that derived from burning coal. A design study team was formed in
January 1951 to further investigate these ideas.
The original concept of a small plant at Harwell was christened PIPPA, a
mnemonic based on the phrase "pressurised pile for producing power and
plutonium", (the Windscale Piles, of course, having been unpressurised).
Later, in June 1952, a small scale plant was assessed as being
impracticable, and attention focussed on the design of a larger,
150MW(thermal), installation. The name PIPPA stuck to this larger plant,
and with the general design work being completed by early 1953, the
Government immediately accepted the recommendation that such a
CO2-cooled reactor should be built to produce both plutonium and
electrical power.
Construction of the new complex, known as Calderhall 'A' and comprising
of two reactors housed in buildings separated by a common turbine hall,
began adjacent to the Windscale site in August 1953. Construction of
Reactor 1 was completed by mid-May 1956 and it was handed to the
operators on the 17th of the same month, fuel loading then beginning
immediately. The reactor went critical in the evening of 22nd May 1956,
and it was operating at full design load by the August of that year,
making Calderhall the world's first commercial nuclear "power station".
Subsequently, it proved possible to operate the Calderhall Reactors at
levels considerably in excess of the design parameters, and the Parsons
turbo-alternators, (3,000rpm, two cylinder, mixed pressure machines),
were twice rebladed to exploit the greater available steam conditions;
firstly, in 1962 from the original 21MW(e) output to 27MW, and, again,
to 30MW some four years later.
Using various sources, I have compiled a table of operating parameters
which illustrates the steady progress made with gas-cooled reactors
after the initial Calderhall success. This table is available as an
'html' file at:-
http://home.freeuk.net/dbowie/magnox.htm
A further ten stations were constructed as extrapolations of the
original design -- known as the "Magnox" series from the magnesium alloy
which was used to encase the natural uranium fuel elements.
The second of these, Chapelcross, like Calderhall, was operated by the
United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, (latterly British Nuclear Fuels
Limited), and was primarily a plutonium production plant or "Atomic
Works".
The remainder were operated by the Central Electricity Generating Board
(8) and the South of Scotland Electricity Board (1).
Whilst coolant pressures and thus steam conditions/electrical output
were progressively increased, all had their ancestry in the British
atomic weapon programme, and were substantial producers of plutonium. (A
true thawing in US/UK relations from the days of the MacMahon Act only
came around in the '60's when the Americans sought plutonium from
British reactors to fuel their considerable nuclear build-up of that
time).
The Advanced Gas-cooled Reactor programme of the late 1960's/early
1970's was a logical extension of the Magnox Reactor series; the
graphite moderator and CO2 coolant were retained, but enriched uranium
oxide supplanted the natural uranium fuel elements, and thus permitted
of a raising in core temperatures and, ultimately, the production of a
superior grade of steam. A primary objective of the AGR development was
the realisation of a high pressure/temperature nuclear steam cycle, and
this was entirely successful in that the British AGR's are the only
nuclear power stations which make use of turbo-alternators which are
entirely standardised with conventional practice. From the table it will
be seen that ALL British gas-cooled reactors have been capable of
producing superheated steam, (this in direct contrast to the American
designed PWR cycle).
All of the above things said, the CEGB were not at all keen to procure
the AGR design, the 'Steam Generating Heavy Water Reactor', (SGHWR), for
long finding alternative favour. An experimental 100MW(e) reactor, "The
Dragon", operated for many years under the auspices of the United
Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority at Winfrith in Dorset. 'Fast Breeder
Reactors' were also developed by the UKAEA at Dounreay in the north of
Scotland.
Ultimately, and only after what was at that time the longest running
Public Inquiry in British history, (such by then was the strength of
anti-nuclear feeling), American Pressurised Water Reactor technology was
purchased for the Sizewell 'B' Power Station -- the last nuclear power
plant built in this country.
david...@cableinet.co.uk
dbo...@freeuk.com
David Eyre
>
<snip>
> Controversy continues to the present day concerning the long-term
> effects of this incident -- the radioactive material having been
> exhausted out of the stack. Given their coastal location, the two
> concrete towers of the Windscale Piles must rank as near the most
> sinister appearing structures ever to have stretched skyward ?
>
As a further aside the chimneys are the subject of a major long term
decommissioning project which lead to their eventual demolition
(decommissioning of the piles -
http://www.ukaea.org.uk/press/9sep97a.htm)
Info from NRPB on the radiological consequences of the fire can be found
at :
http://www.nrpb.org.uk/Wscal-is.htm
<snip>
> An experimental 100MW(e) reactor, "The
> Dragon", operated for many years under the auspices of the United
> Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority at Winfrith in Dorset.
<snip>
A minor correction here, although "DRAGON" was sited at Winfrith (1964)
it was helium cooled and used graphite coated particle fuel (Source:
Kemp's Engineers Yearbook 1978) SGHWR was a separate reactor which has
been partly decommissioned (http://www.ukaea.org.uk/press/27amar97a.htm)
Richard Hadden
The effects of the fire were only saved from being worse by the foresight of
Sir John Cockroft. As Chief Government Scientist (or at least, able to
influence the design), he had ordered that the chimneys be extended and that
they have some sort of filter in them. The expensive, towering structures
were named Cockroft's Follies. Without them, however, the release of iodine
and caesium would have been much worse. As it was, millions of gallons of
milk were poured away, creating an environmental hazard in its own right,
and prophylactic iodine was issued, all why the Man from the Ministry issued
bland reassurances....
Martin Trump
<david...@cableinet.co.uk> writes
>A minor correction here, although "DRAGON" was sited at Winfrith (1964)
>it was helium cooled and used graphite coated particle fuel (Source:
Oh, how you take me back! Yes, it was helium cooled but other coatings
(Si based) were tried without great success.
I went to Winfrith Heath upty-ump years ago to work on the coating of
fuel particles for Dragon.
There was a test loop in the reactor Pluto at Harwell running at many
kilowatts to investigate the technology.
It all came to nothing. Oh, well, such is life :-)
Regards,
--
Martin Trump
Andy Dingley
>and prophylactic iodine was issued,
Does anyone know if this was issued across the Irish Sea too ? I have
a personal incidence in cancers arising from this accident,
particularly on that side of the water.
Richard Hadden
Andy Dingley wrote in message <3749af00....@news.demon.co.uk>...
I suspect they relied on the wind direction and didn't bother - no sense
causing alarm now, is there...?