German TV-show in RealVideo: http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm#SWR3
Anti-Cult
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Anti-Cult
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Anti-Cult
http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm#SWR3
Here's what you will find:
SWR3, Suedwest television. Germany
"Missing in Happy Valley?", Suedwest television, February 25, 1999.
(Genuine Pnm-Streaming RealVideo)
This program is for now only available in German. However I will provide
a link to the transcripts in English:
http://cisar.org/990225j.htm
Below is an intro, written by by Gitta Dueperthal, from "Frankfurter
Rundschau", and translated and posted to the
newsgroup: alt.religion.scientology by german_...@my-dejanews.com.
After the intro, I will provide the links to the streaming versions of
this show, as well as links to the downloads. The
show is in 4 parts due to it's lenght, (about 43 minutes)
No empty accusations
A film on the "reformatories" of the Scientologists
From: "Frankfurter Rundschau"
February 25, 1999
by Gitta Dueperthal
"Missing in Happy Valley?", Suedwest television, 10.16 p.m.
"Like in prison. Get up, everybody get up, wash, get dressed, all in ten
minutes. Then you're standing outside and shivering all over. Early
morning it is ice cold. Everyone in a row. They count off like in jail to
make sure nobody has taken off. They tell you what your work is today. 20
minutes to eat and then off in the bus to work in the headquarters."
One might think that this would be the description of the daily routine
in a prison camp. Not at all, much more of the same conditions of a
so-called Scientology rehabilitation center are described by Jesse
Prince, former second man in the Scientology management. The camp with
the pleasant sounding name (Happy Valley) is found on the edge of the
desert in the USA, two hours drive out of Los Angeles. Gerry Armstrong,
former coordinator of the Scientology secret service as well as
confidante, at the time, of organization founder L. Ron Hubbard, also had
lasting experiences with the Rehabilitation Project (RPF): "I was the
first prisoner here in Clearwater. The very first. The people there are
genuine prisoners." Even if Scientology asserts that the people are there
voluntarily. "A program of reconciliation" is offered there for people
who have committed mistakes. That is the view of Marlene Getanes,
Scientology spokesperson in Europe.
Authors Ina Brockman and Peter Reichelt worked for fourteen months and
assiduously researched their explosive documentary. Their film goes to
the core of the matter; their topic is the "reformatories" of the
Scientologists. They show revealing pictures of the repressive methods of
the organization. They succeeded, for the first time, in photographing a
group of people at work in such an "establishment." "Even old women are
exploited for this work in temperatures of 110 degrees in the shade -
their daily wage, $1.50," it states in the film. He waited for days
in order to get these pictures of the renovation of the Fort Harrison
Scientology hotel, according to Peter Reichelt. "Because as soon as
public are sighted there - a whistle sounds and the people disappear."
The Scientologists are not exactly bashful with journalists, either, as
can be clearly seen in the film.
ABC, the US broadcaster, has already made this into a 60 minute special.
What's special about this film is that in spite of the adventurous and
dangerous conditions of the research, the film is not just one empty
accusation after another. Every assertion is proved with documents. The
authors asked uncomfortable questions and carried out thoughtful
discussion with relatives. There was something about the case of Wiebke
Hansen, one of the most successful Scientology managers worldwide, who
disappeared overnight in 1995 from Hamburg. After a missing persons
complaint was filed by her brother, she reported in to the police; with
that the case was formally closed, because she could no longer be counted
as missing. Hansen's brother had to finally accept that it had been her
own decision to subject herself to this "reactionary, authoritative
mechanism." The film does not goad emotions and does not use cheap
effects, rather, it discusses its theme seriously, in a detached manner.
Streaming: Part One Part Two Part Three Part Four (February 25, 1999,
Genuine Pnm-Streaming RealVideo)
Download: Part One Part Two Part Three Part Four (RealVideo)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
++++++++++++ SACRED CULT SCRIPTURE +++++++++++++
The goal of the [cult's] department [of governmental affairs in
its OSA] is to bring the government and hostile philosophies or
societies into a state of complete compliance with the goals of
Scientology. This is done by a high level ability to control and
in its absence by a low level ability to overwhelm. Introvert such
agencies. Control such agencies.
-- L. Ron Hubbard
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------------------------------------------
******* Body thetans? We don't need no stinking Body Thetans! *******
*********** http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/index.htm ************
* Multimedia: http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm *
**** Public PGP key: http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/pgp.htm *****
******** The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com (Anti-Cult) ********
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-Cult
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The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com (Anti-Cult) wrote:
>Updated multimedia page. Go to:
>http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm#SWR3
>
>Here's what you will find:
>
>SWR3, Suedwest television. Germany
great work!!!
Thank You Joe!
As I knew Wiebke Hanssen, as ED of hamburg Org in 1989 -1995, I never
talked to her, but saw her quite often.
They looked at her like Misses Grand chief "OT", and kinda admired her
all the way.
In March 1995 international management (Mr Jaeger) "fell" into the Org
like Gestapo and cleaned up everything.
Many people vanished.
The reason they gave us was we now wanna make Hamburg Org to "Rons"
Org
And Wiebke was said to be SP
I did not care too much.
And the truth is many people were glad!
They said the fish is stinking most at his head.
Franz Riedl said now the SP is removed evrything is good.
I believed that.
But t was a lie.
Scientology is a lie.
Persons are not important in Scn
Money is important, the Tech, the statistics, an ElRon
Nothing else.
Juergen behrndt
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Garry Scarff
> As many know I am a declared enemy of the CofS.
>
> However I consider that program a collection of malicious garbage.
>
> As a consequence I consider the following people totally untrustworthy:
>
> Jesse Prince
> Gerry Armstrong
> Frank Oliver
> Stacy Brooks (Young)
>
> I don't consider the CofS at all to be a noble organization but I am not
> willing to lie to attack them.
Finally, some honesty on this newsgroup. I sincerely applaud you Ralph for
having the courage and integrity to speak your mind on this. I never could
understand the idea that it was OK to lie to attack an enemy that lies. This
was something very enrooted in the old CAN ~ that deception and breaking the
law, i.e., involuntary deprogrammings was OK ~ it was a moral choice. As a
result, CAN members were arrested and in the case of Galen Kelly, spent some
time in prison.
The more the reason to encourage reform in the church.
Garry
>
>
Ralph Hilton
(Anti-Cult) wrote:
>Updated multimedia page. Go to:
>http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm#SWR3
>
>Here's what you will find:
>
>SWR3, Suedwest television. Germany
>
>"Missing in Happy Valley?", Suedwest television, February 25, 1999.
>(Genuine Pnm-Streaming RealVideo)
>
Thanks for posting it. The streaming version didn't work from here - the
sound got lost. I downloaded and it worked ok.
As many know I am a declared enemy of the CofS.
However I consider that program a collection of malicious garbage.
As a consequence I consider the following people totally untrustworthy:
Jesse Prince
Gerry Armstrong
Frank Oliver
Stacy Brooks (Young)
I don't consider the CofS at all to be a noble organization but I am not
willing to lie to attack them.
My understanding of German is not very good however my girlfriend is a
native Austrian and translated points that I had problems with.
I see many things wrong with the CofS and have said much about that.
Jesse was 2nd in comand. Maybe he is pissed off that he lost that position.
I knew Pat Broeker and distrusted him totally. That Jesse supported him
knocked off a few dozen points.
Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
I do not like this shit. I see a lot of things wrong with the CofS but I am
not willing to tell lies about what I experienced.
I left the CofS in 1982 after too much bullshit. It was bad in some ways. It
was bad in such a way that I decided to leave.
That program had a very heavy weighting against the CofS and was very
malicious.
I would sugest pointing out the actual bad things the CofS is doing and
leading it toward reform.
In days gone past the Christians killed hundreds of thousands if not
millions in the name of faith yet are now respected.
I think there is a chance yet for Scientology and I hope to be part of its
new future.
Many may disagree with its philosophy, aside from the orgs, but people have
the right to believe what they believe as long as it doesn't harm others and
their rights.
--
Ralph Hilton
http://Ralph.Hilton.org
Tilman Hausherr
Hilton) wrote:
>Jesse was 2nd in comand. Maybe he is pissed off that he lost that position.
Scientology itself confirmed that he is #2.
>Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
>place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
>while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
>NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
If you were there at the same time - how come that you didn't allege
that you met him? Gerry is not the only one who mentioned that they were
servred left-overs.
Tilman
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Clearwater pictures: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/4497/clearwater/index.html
Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
Annoy scientology by buying books: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html
Ralph Hilton
wrote:
>If you were there at the same time - how come that you didn't allege
>that you met him? Gerry is not the only one who mentioned that they were
>servred left-overs.
I met him - it seemed unnecessary to state. Dennis has also talked about
left-overs but I wasn't on the RPF at the same time as him.
Ron Newman
> I met him - it seemed unnecessary to state. Dennis has also talked about
> left-overs but I wasn't on the RPF at the same time as him.
Which means that your RPF experience and Dennis's could have been
quite different.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/
Roland
>
> In <37040e9a....@news.telekabel.at>, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph
> Hilton) wrote:
>
> >Jesse was 2nd in comand. Maybe he is pissed off that he lost that position.
>
> Scientology itself confirmed that he is #2.
>
> >Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
> >place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
> >while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
> >NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
>
> that you met him? Gerry is not the only one who mentioned that they were
> servred left-overs.
Left-overs? You lucky, lucky bastards!
Working 110 hours per week, running round poles, getting $30 per
week thrown in along with a place to kip down -- and they give you
left-overs as well. You lucky, lucky bastards!
Roland
--
"I notice that we all believe that Venus has a methane atmosphere and
is unlivable. I almost got run down by a freight locomotive the other
day -- didn't look very uncivilized to me." - L. Ron Hubbard,
"Between Lives Implants" lecture, SHSBC #317. 23 July 1963.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Venusloc.ram
gerry armstrong
wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:35:14 +0100, The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com
>(Anti-Cult) wrote:
>
>>Updated multimedia page. Go to:
>>http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm#SWR3
>>
>>Here's what you will find:
>>
>>SWR3, Suedwest television. Germany
>>
>>"Missing in Happy Valley?", Suedwest television, February 25, 1999.
>>(Genuine Pnm-Streaming RealVideo)
>>
>
>Thanks for posting it. The streaming version didn't work from here - the
>sound got lost. I downloaded and it worked ok.
>
>As many know I am a declared enemy of the CofS.
>
>However I consider that program a collection of malicious garbage.
>
>As a consequence I consider the following people totally untrustworthy:
This is a silly conclusion to jump to, don't you think?
You probably do not know what these people said. You have a
translation of a translation or paraphrase of what was said.
As a further caution, the consequence of a libel such as "totally
untrustworthy," is that you bring in the rest of totality for fair
examination. I, for example, could legitimately say, out of everything
I've written, what else can you point to which supports (or for that
matter defeats) your conclusion that I am totally untrustworthy. I'm
certain someone can come up with an archive of some sort of my
writings.
And out of everything you have observed or know to be true about Gerry
Armstrong what else supports your conclusion that he is totally
untrustworthy?
>
>Jesse Prince
>Gerry Armstrong
>Frank Oliver
>Stacy Brooks (Young)
>
>I don't consider the CofS at all to be a noble organization but I am not
>willing to lie to attack them.
>
>My understanding of German is not very good however my girlfriend is a
>native Austrian and translated points that I had problems with.
>
>I see many things wrong with the CofS and have said much about that.
Well, one of the things wrong and reflective of the whole thing wrong
with $cientology is the RPF.
And out of a TV program, which attempts to turn a critical light on
that wrong and the greater wrong it reflects, you decide to
uncritically libel the program's participants, and what, defend the
RPF?
>
>Jesse was 2nd in comand. Maybe he is pissed off that he lost that position.
>
>I knew Pat Broeker and distrusted him totally. That Jesse supported him
>knocked off a few dozen points.
>
>Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
>place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
>while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
>NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
Here's where your jumped to conclusion may jump up itself and bite
you. You conclude that I am *totally untrustworthy* because you
believe you have noted a contradiction between what you observed in
the RPF and what your girlfriend says the German
translator/paraphraser/whatever says I said, right?
If, however, it can be shown that your conclusion is faulty, based on
faulty facts, would you be equally willing to jump to the conclusion
that I am therefore totally *trustworthy*?
You state that you were "on the RPF at the same time and
place as Gerry." Well, you were not. I was in the Clearwater RPF from
July 1, 1976 to Dec 1, 1977. You arrived after being RPFed for the
Clearwater Bank building fire, which was when, May/ June, 1977? Would
it make sense to now assert that because to make your point you were
not exactly truthful in your claim to have been in the RPF at the same
time as I you are totally untrustworthy? I don't do that, and I urge
you not to either.
You have elsewhere stated that shortly after your RPF assignment you
requested to be posted in the RPF tech unit, which request was
granted. Your stay in the galley was, therefore, quite short, and you
could not have known what went on in the galley except in that short
period. Nevertheless, it does not make sense to call you totally
untrustworthy because you stretched your very limited period of
observation over my whole RPF experience.
The most important point, however, is that the Hubbard F[lag O[rder]s
which lay out the rules for the RPF (FO 3434 series) state that the
RPF eats after the crew, whatever is left over. I do not have this FO
series handy, but I imagine someone has a copy who can confirm this.
And I doubt that the words are identical, but that's the rule's gist.
Now it is altogether possible that in reciting this one of the RPFs
various rules of prohibition or restriction; e.g., no newspapers, no
radio, mail checked going in and out, couldn't speak to crew unless
spoken to, running everywhere, black boiler suits,etc.; "eats after
the crew, whatever is left over" might get looked up in an
English-German dictionary and be translated as "leftovers," or even
"table scraps." But what I stated was both the Hubbard policy and the
way it was.
There were times when indeed there was not enough food for the RPF
after the crew had eaten. We never went hungry, however, and as Bosun
I never permitted any RPFer to go hungry, because we always found
something in the galley to get us to the next meal. I made a point in
fact of telling Peter Reichelt that no one went hungry.
Galley crew were generally an abused subculture themselves so retained
some compassion, and through time began to depend on the RPF, as the
Force expanded, for much of the work (we probably had the whole
garbage and galley cleanup details by the time you arrived in the RPF)
so generally treated the RPFers quite well. Because of our hard work
and charm we made the best of and even sometimes benefitted because of
the rule that the RPF "eats after the crew, whatever is left over."
To keep its work force happy and healthy, the galley made sure there
was plenty left over. That was probably the situation you walked into
when you had RPF galley detail.
To me it is abundantly clear that Hubbard instituted that rule as part
of the segregation of RPFers (apartheid by rockslam), part of their
punishment, and part of their treatment as "criminals" or "SPs."
Rules can be implemented in a compassionate way or an incompassionate
way. The rules themselves can be compassionate or incompassionate. I
tried, within what I could get away with, to implement the basically
incompassionate RPF rules in a compassionate way. The RPF itself
evidences the incompassionate nature of the $cientology organization.
Incompassion is a faulty philosophy with much grief as its product,
and it is good to point out that faulty philosophy's failings. The
RPF, a slave state, in an organization enjoying all the benefits of
tax exemption and Constitutionally guaranted freedoms, is an
abomination, an utter failure of $cientology's faulty philosophy.
You might not think of it this way, but the CB fire, although it
ushered you into the RPF, also ushered in a renaissance in the RPF
itself. Suddenly my crew of 60 or so "criminals" became the saviors, a
disciplined force to clean up the mess and then save all that fire and
water damaged paper. Those were round the clock operations which
tacked more days on everyone's sentence but were recognized in that
simple time as heroic.
As things normalized, the highest bidder for my army (you'll recall,
and I always do very fondly, that the RPF called me "the general") was
the S[tanding O[rder] #1 Unit. A number of sections around the clock
unpacked, laid out, dried and refiled or repacked all the SO#1 mail up
to the date of the fire.
For those who don't know, "Standing Order #1" was Hubbard's order that
"all mail addressed to me shall be received by me." Well, the truth
is, as everyone on Hubbard's lines soon learned, mail addressed to
Hubbard wasn't received by Hubbard at all but was routed to the SO#1
Unit. This unit, with all its piles of files, had been on board the
Apollo and then was in the CB when it burned. The SO#1 Unit contained
a number of Sea Org crew who answered Hubbard's letters as if Hubbard
were answering, including signing his name. When the lid got blown off
that little fraud, and before Hubbard died, Standing Order #1 was
changed to say something like, "all mail addressed to me shall be
handled according to my wishes."
The RPF became such heroes for saving the SO#1 files (all those
letters written to Ron as if he would read them and all the phony Ron
letters from the SO#1 Unit back to the poor souls who thought he had)
that the SO#1 I/C, a kind lady whose name I forget, got permission,
upon my suggestion, for the whole RPF to go off the property to a
local theater to see Star Wars. It would have been maybe the fall of
1977.
So you see, Ralph, all things work together for good. We have you to
thank, in part, for springing us to see a movie.Thanks for the
memories.
>
>I do not like this shit. I see a lot of things wrong with the CofS but I am
>not willing to tell lies about what I experienced.
>
>I left the CofS in 1982 after too much bullshit. It was bad in some ways. It
>was bad in such a way that I decided to leave.
>
>That program had a very heavy weighting against the CofS and was very
>malicious.
It should have been "weighted against" $cientology, whatever that
means. The RPF is wrong, and especially a wrong in America. People
were assigned unjustly, kept there unjustly, and denied justice. They
were denied access to the real world, subjected to psychological
abuse, not permitted to leave and in many cases guarded. All the
product of a psychologically warped man's willful domination of his in
every way equal fellow humans.
Let this sick willful domination end. Tear down the RPF.
>
>I would sugest pointing out the actual bad things the CofS is doing and
>leading it toward reform.
Absolutely. Do those things. A first and extremely easy step of
reformation, tear down the RPF.
>
>In days gone past the Christians killed hundreds of thousands if not
>millions in the name of faith yet are now respected.
>
>I think there is a chance yet for Scientology and I hope to be part of its
>new future.
Absolutely. The reformation of $cientology is utterly possible, and
can be achieved to the benefit of everyone. It will release
$cientology's leaders from a great burden when the RPF is torn down.
>
>Many may disagree with its philosophy, aside from the orgs, but people have
>the right to believe what they believe as long as it doesn't harm others and
>their rights.
The RPF harms others, and destroys their rights. What an easy thing
for $cientology to do. Tear down the RPF.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
Ralph Hilton
wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:05:37 GMT, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph Hilton)
>wrote:
>>
>>Thanks for posting it. The streaming version didn't work from here - the
>>sound got lost. I downloaded and it worked ok.
>>
>>As many know I am a declared enemy of the CofS.
>>
>>However I consider that program a collection of malicious garbage.
>>
>>As a consequence I consider the following people totally untrustworthy:
>
>This is a silly conclusion to jump to, don't you think?
>You probably do not know what these people said. You have a
>translation of a translation or paraphrase of what was said.
Many of the English voices were audible. Your words on that point were
audible in English.
>As a further caution, the consequence of a libel such as "totally
>untrustworthy," is that you bring in the rest of totality for fair
>examination. I, for example, could legitimately say, out of everything
>I've written, what else can you point to which supports (or for that
>matter defeats) your conclusion that I am totally untrustworthy. I'm
>certain someone can come up with an archive of some sort of my
>writings.
>
>And out of everything you have observed or know to be true about Gerry
>Armstrong what else supports your conclusion that he is totally
>untrustworthy?
The biggest thing was the way Jon Atack changed after he met you. He and I
used to have long conversations about ways of improving the tech. He met you
and changed totally in ways I won't publicize. I observed that he stopped
getting better.
>>Jesse Prince
>>Gerry Armstrong
>>Frank Oliver
>>Stacy Brooks (Young)
>>
>>I don't consider the CofS at all to be a noble organization but I am not
>>willing to lie to attack them.
>>
>>My understanding of German is not very good however my girlfriend is a
>>native Austrian and translated points that I had problems with.
>>
>>I see many things wrong with the CofS and have said much about that.
>
>Well, one of the things wrong and reflective of the whole thing wrong
>with $cientology is the RPF.
True. It was intended as a program to help people who were very incapable.
I've had a few chats with Ken, who wrote the original issues, about it.
It went wrong, I agree, but there were actually some good intentions in its
foundations.
>And out of a TV program, which attempts to turn a critical light on
>that wrong and the greater wrong it reflects, you decide to
>uncritically libel the program's participants, and what, defend the
>RPF?
No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
Miscavage with the caption:
Führer von Scientology.
I didn't libel you or others - I stated my opinion very clearly labelled as
such.
>>Jesse was 2nd in comand. Maybe he is pissed off that he lost that position.
>>
>>I knew Pat Broeker and distrusted him totally. That Jesse supported him
>>knocked off a few dozen points.
>>
>>Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
>>place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
>>while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
>>NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
>
>Here's where your jumped to conclusion may jump up itself and bite
>you. You conclude that I am *totally untrustworthy* because you
>believe you have noted a contradiction between what you observed in
>the RPF and what your girlfriend says the German
>translator/paraphraser/whatever says I said, right?
No. I heard your words in English under the louder German translations.
>If, however, it can be shown that your conclusion is faulty, based on
>faulty facts, would you be equally willing to jump to the conclusion
>that I am therefore totally *trustworthy*?
>
>You state that you were "on the RPF at the same time and
>place as Gerry." Well, you were not. I was in the Clearwater RPF from
>July 1, 1976 to Dec 1, 1977. You arrived after being RPFed for the
>Clearwater Bank building fire, which was when, May/ June, 1977? Would
>it make sense to now assert that because to make your point you were
>not exactly truthful in your claim to have been in the RPF at the same
>time as I you are totally untrustworthy? I don't do that, and I urge
>you not to either.
So were you fed left-overs before I arrived? I would find it strange to
believe that people were fed left-overs before I arrived and then it was
allright and then when I left they started feeding left-overs again.
>You have elsewhere stated that shortly after your RPF assignment you
>requested to be posted in the RPF tech unit, which request was
>granted. Your stay in the galley was, therefore, quite short, and you
>could not have known what went on in the galley except in that short
>period. Nevertheless, it does not make sense to call you totally
>untrustworthy because you stretched your very limited period of
>observation over my whole RPF experience.
The food I ate during the whole time in the RPF seemed equivalent to what
the crew ate. Many people who were married and not in the RPF would choose
to eat with their spouses in the RPF area as you would have observed.
>The most important point, however, is that the Hubbard F[lag O[rder]s
>which lay out the rules for the RPF (FO 3434 series) state that the
>RPF eats after the crew, whatever is left over. I do not have this FO
>series handy, but I imagine someone has a copy who can confirm this.
>And I doubt that the words are identical, but that's the rule's gist.
The cooks cooked enough for all. So if there were 500 crew and 100 RPF they
cooked for 600. 500 ate and food for the 100 RPF was "left-over". We weren't
eating "left-overs". We just ate later.
>Now it is altogether possible that in reciting this one of the RPFs
>various rules of prohibition or restriction; e.g., no newspapers, no
>radio, mail checked going in and out, couldn't speak to crew unless
>spoken to, running everywhere, black boiler suits,etc.; "eats after
>the crew, whatever is left over" might get looked up in an
>English-German dictionary and be translated as "leftovers," or even
>"table scraps." But what I stated was both the Hubbard policy and the
>way it was.
see above.
>There were times when indeed there was not enough food for the RPF
>after the crew had eaten. We never went hungry, however, and as Bosun
>I never permitted any RPFer to go hungry, because we always found
>something in the galley to get us to the next meal. I made a point in
>fact of telling Peter Reichelt that no one went hungry.
You were a very good bosun. As I've said before what you did then was very
much appreciated by many. You impressed me then very strongly as a good
person. Much of my reaction is from seeing you fight so hatefully against
that which I saw change you so much for the better.
The point that no-one went hungry didn't make it to the TV show where
exactly the opposite impression was created.
>Galley crew were generally an abused subculture themselves so retained
>some compassion, and through time began to depend on the RPF, as the
>Force expanded, for much of the work (we probably had the whole
>garbage and galley cleanup details by the time you arrived in the RPF)
>so generally treated the RPFers quite well. Because of our hard work
>and charm we made the best of and even sometimes benefitted because of
>the rule that the RPF "eats after the crew, whatever is left over."
I wouldn't say the galley crew were an abused sub-culture. You might forget
that I was running the dining rooms for a while. Normal hours. Good food.
Always had study time.
So the RPF did ok for food. That isn't what was presented on the show.
>To keep its work force happy and healthy, the galley made sure there
>was plenty left over. That was probably the situation you walked into
>when you had RPF galley detail.
Personally I'm inclined to think that the galley crew were motivated more by
common decency. You remember Ronnie Rathburn, the cook, and Mike Davies?
Were they just trying to keep the RPF motivated? No - they were and are good
people.
>To me it is abundantly clear that Hubbard instituted that rule as part
>of the segregation of RPFers (apartheid by rockslam), part of their
>punishment, and part of their treatment as "criminals" or "SPs."
Possible. Hubbard assigned some people to the RPF for molesting children (4
to my knowledge) and many others for stupid incompetence. I won't post names
but you were there at the time. The R/S period was wrong, I agree.
>Rules can be implemented in a compassionate way or an incompassionate
>way. The rules themselves can be compassionate or incompassionate. I
>tried, within what I could get away with, to implement the basically
>incompassionate RPF rules in a compassionate way. The RPF itself
>evidences the incompassionate nature of the $cientology organization.
>Incompassion is a faulty philosophy with much grief as its product,
>and it is good to point out that faulty philosophy's failings. The
>RPF, a slave state, in an organization enjoying all the benefits of
>tax exemption and Constitutionally guaranted freedoms, is an
>abomination, an utter failure of $cientology's faulty philosophy.
>
>You might not think of it this way, but the CB fire, although it
>ushered you into the RPF, also ushered in a renaissance in the RPF
>itself. Suddenly my crew of 60 or so "criminals" became the saviors, a
>disciplined force to clean up the mess and then save all that fire and
>water damaged paper. Those were round the clock operations which
>tacked more days on everyone's sentence but were recognized in that
>simple time as heroic.
I must admit that I hadn't looked at that before.
>As things normalized, the highest bidder for my army (you'll recall,
>and I always do very fondly, that the RPF called me "the general") was
>the S[tanding O[rder] #1 Unit. A number of sections around the clock
>unpacked, laid out, dried and refiled or repacked all the SO#1 mail up
>to the date of the fire.
I don't recall around the clock operations. Were those before I arrived a
week after the fire?
>The RPF became such heroes for saving the SO#1 files (all those
>letters written to Ron as if he would read them and all the phony Ron
>letters from the SO#1 Unit back to the poor souls who thought he had)
>that the SO#1 I/C, a kind lady whose name I forget, got permission,
>upon my suggestion, for the whole RPF to go off the property to a
>local theater to see Star Wars. It would have been maybe the fall of
>1977.
Alethia Taylor.
>So you see, Ralph, all things work together for good. We have you to
>thank, in part, for springing us to see a movie.Thanks for the
>memories.
>>I do not like this shit. I see a lot of things wrong with the CofS but I am
>>not willing to tell lies about what I experienced.
>>
>>I left the CofS in 1982 after too much bullshit. It was bad in some ways. It
>>was bad in such a way that I decided to leave.
>>
>>That program had a very heavy weighting against the CofS and was very
>>malicious.
>
>It should have been "weighted against" $cientology, whatever that
>means. The RPF is wrong, and especially a wrong in America. People
>were assigned unjustly, kept there unjustly, and denied justice. They
>were denied access to the real world, subjected to psychological
>abuse, not permitted to leave and in many cases guarded. All the
>product of a psychologically warped man's willful domination of his in
>every way equal fellow humans.
>
>Let this sick willful domination end. Tear down the RPF.
Yes. As it seems to have become. But when you and I were there it was not so
bad. You were always looking good then. Your face was fuller and you were
saying good encouraging things to people.
When I was on the RPF I had 5 hours a day to co-audit. I made the most of it
and Cathy and I got through the RPF in about 6 months.
I came out as a passable review auditor. I had walked in having never
audited another on a meter.
>>I would sugest pointing out the actual bad things the CofS is doing and
>>leading it toward reform.
>
>Absolutely. Do those things. A first and extremely easy step of
>reformation, tear down the RPF.
How about reforming the RPF into a workable way of rehabilitating people who
have failed in their jobs.
>>In days gone past the Christians killed hundreds of thousands if not
>>millions in the name of faith yet are now respected.
>>
>>I think there is a chance yet for Scientology and I hope to be part of its
>>new future.
>
>Absolutely. The reformation of $cientology is utterly possible, and
>can be achieved to the benefit of everyone. It will release
>$cientology's leaders from a great burden when the RPF is torn down.
Or reformed.
>>Many may disagree with its philosophy, aside from the orgs, but people have
>>the right to believe what they believe as long as it doesn't harm others and
>>their rights.
>
>The RPF harms others, and destroys their rights. What an easy thing
>for $cientology to do. Tear down the RPF.
What would happen then? What would happen to the incompetent staff - they
would have to be fired and live on the dole.
The RPF did originally have a humanitarian objective. I have talked to Ken
about this and trust him very much. He wrote the original issues to create
the possibility for staff who were not competent to do simple labor while
studying and co-auditing 5 hours a day. Not easy on a crowded ship.
Was Hubbard really a Satanic monster?
Do you remember Bruce Welch?
Wasn't it Hubbard who nursed him back to sanity with the introspection
rundown. C/Sing him daily and welcoming him back in the OODs when he
regained his sanity?
Much became changed when nutters got on the line but despite all his crap I
think that Hubbard did far far more good than harm.
That time period wasn't the easiest for many of us but its good that we can
talk about it and throw a bit of shit at each other and then have a
comparatively rational discussion.
I'd like to see Scientology really helping people.
Boudewijn van Ingen
wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:35:14 +0100, The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com
>(Anti-Cult) wrote:
>
>>Updated multimedia page. Go to:
>>http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm#SWR3
>>
>>Here's what you will find:
>>
>>SWR3, Suedwest television. Germany
>>
>>"Missing in Happy Valley?", Suedwest television, February 25, 1999.
>>(Genuine Pnm-Streaming RealVideo)
>>
>
>Thanks for posting it. The streaming version didn't work from here - the
>sound got lost. I downloaded and it worked ok.
>
>As many know I am a declared enemy of the CofS.
>
>However I consider that program a collection of malicious garbage.
>
>As a consequence I consider the following people totally untrustworthy:
>
>Jesse Prince
>Gerry Armstrong
>Frank Oliver
>Stacy Brooks (Young)
>
>I don't consider the CofS at all to be a noble organization but I am not
>willing to lie to attack them.
>
>My understanding of German is not very good however my girlfriend is a
>native Austrian and translated points that I had problems with.
>
>I see many things wrong with the CofS and have said much about that.
>
>Jesse was 2nd in comand. Maybe he is pissed off that he lost that position.
>
>I knew Pat Broeker and distrusted him totally. That Jesse supported him
>knocked off a few dozen points.
Could you please point out where (in this TV report, presumably) Jesse
"supported" Pat Broeker and in what way? I must have missed the "lies"
in his statements.
>Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
>place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
>while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
>NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
I have seen this discussion before. Seems to me like you have been the
lucky one, considering the different testimonies.
>I do not like this shit. I see a lot of things wrong with the CofS but I am
>not willing to tell lies about what I experienced.
Do you consider everybody that does not support your version of "the
truth" to automatically be a liar?
>I left the CofS in 1982 after too much bullshit. It was bad in some ways. It
>was bad in such a way that I decided to leave.
>
>That program had a very heavy weighting against the CofS and was very
>malicious.
I thought the outright *denials* about the RPF of that Co$ spokeswoman
to be "malicious".
>I would sugest pointing out the actual bad things the CofS is doing and
>leading it toward reform.
You do your "thing" and others will do theirs.
>In days gone past the Christians killed hundreds of thousands if not
>millions in the name of faith yet are now respected.
>
>I think there is a chance yet for Scientology and I hope to be part of its
>new future.
>
>Many may disagree with its philosophy, aside from the orgs, but people have
>the right to believe what they believe as long as it doesn't harm others and
>their rights.
So you think the RPF is not one of those "actual bad things" that need
"pointing out", then?
I think you may have missed some (subtle?) references to Germany's
past, while you were watching that film.
Groeten,
Boudewijn, Kox.
"I guarantee you that isn't true," said Mike Rinder, a top official for Scientology
Jonas Flygare
> No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
> Miscavage with the caption:
>
> Führer von Scientology.
>
> I didn't libel you or others - I stated my opinion very clearly labelled as
> such.
Entering "Führer" at http://dict.leo.org/dict/frame-content.html gives
the following meanings:
guide, leader, leaders, captain, headman, scoutmaster.
Which of the above do you feel are biased?
It's fairly obvious that the Co$ have ahangup on nazis, but the word
Führer does _not_ mean nazi.
Tilman Hausherr
Hilton) wrote:
>No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
>Miscavage with the caption:
>
>Führer von Scientology.
As I told you in e-mail, the word simply means "leader" or "guide" in
German, even if your girlfriend says otherwise, or that the word has a
"narrow" meaning in the non-german world.
Ralph Hilton
>Entering "Führer" at http://dict.leo.org/dict/frame-content.html gives
>the following meanings:
>
>guide, leader, leaders, captain, headman, scoutmaster.
>
>Which of the above do you feel are biased?
>
>It's fairly obvious that the Co$ have a hangup on nazis, but the word
>Führer does _not_ mean nazi.
My (American) Random House College Dictionary defines Führer:
"Führer n. German 1. Leader. 2. der Führer, the leader, applied to Adolf
Hitler. also Fuehrer."
Obviously opinions of the meaning vary regionally.
Ralph Hilton
wrote:
>Could you please point out where (in this TV report, presumably) Jesse
>"supported" Pat Broeker and in what way? I must have missed the "lies"
>in his statements.
Jesse said that he wouldn't support DM against Broeker. Its in the webbed
transcript.
>>Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
>>place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
>>while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
>>NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
>
>I have seen this discussion before. Seems to me like you have been the
>lucky one, considering the different testimonies.
I think my recent dialog with Gerry covers this.
>>I do not like this shit. I see a lot of things wrong with the CofS but I am
>>not willing to tell lies about what I experienced.
>
>Do you consider everybody that does not support your version of "the
>truth" to automatically be a liar?
If I see one thing and someone says otherwise then I do tend to consider
them to be telling untruths unless I find evidence that my eyesight was in
some way impaired at the time.
>>I left the CofS in 1982 after too much bullshit. It was bad in some ways. It
>>was bad in such a way that I decided to leave.
>>
>>That program had a very heavy weighting against the CofS and was very
>>malicious.
>
>I thought the outright *denials* about the RPF of that Co$ spokeswoman
>to be "malicious".
I don't have enough data to determine whether she was deliberately lying or
just misinformed.
>>I would sugest pointing out the actual bad things the CofS is doing and
>>leading it toward reform.
>
>You do your "thing" and others will do theirs.
Inevitably.
>So you think the RPF is not one of those "actual bad things" that need
>"pointing out", then?
It does need reform. I think I've stated my viewpoint on the RPF in my last
reply to Gerry.
>I think you may have missed some (subtle?) references to Germany's
>past, while you were watching that film.
I pointed out one which Tilman disagreed with. I'll have to do a survey of
people more aquainted with the ethnics of German speaking countries before
making a conclusion about it.
I would be interested in hearing what you thought the references were.
Tilman Hausherr
Hilton) wrote:
>>I think you may have missed some (subtle?) references to Germany's
>>past, while you were watching that film.
>
>I pointed out one which Tilman disagreed with. I'll have to do a survey of
>people more aquainted with the ethnics of German speaking countries before
>making a conclusion about it.
In the meantime it seems we are both correct. A guy told me that in the
show, the caption is
David Miscavige
"Führer" von Scientology
So this means that Reichelt did indeed intend to characterize the little
guy as a dictator.
Ralph Hilton
wrote:
>In <37295b26....@news.telekabel.at>, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph
>Hilton) wrote:
>
>>>I think you may have missed some (subtle?) references to Germany's
>>>past, while you were watching that film.
>>
>>I pointed out one which Tilman disagreed with. I'll have to do a survey of
>>people more aquainted with the ethnics of German speaking countries before
>>making a conclusion about it.
>
>In the meantime it seems we are both correct. A guy told me that in the
>show, the caption is
>
> David Miscavige
> "Führer" von Scientology
>
>So this means that Reichelt did indeed intend to characterize the little
>guy as a dictator.
ok. I missed mentioning the quotes when I first talked about it which alters
the importance somewhat.
Ron Newman
> My (American) Random House College Dictionary defines Führer:
>
> "Führer n. German 1. Leader. 2. der Führer, the leader, applied to Adolf
> Hitler. also Fuehrer."
Well, as you said yourself, that's an American dictionary. It gives
the denotations and connotations of non-English words as they are used
in the English speaking community, in particular the United States.
It says nothing useful about the connotation of a German word *in German*.
Chris Owen
<til...@berlin.snafu.de> writes
>In <371b5ce9....@news.telekabel.at>, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph
>Hilton) wrote:
>
>>No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
>>Miscavage with the caption:
>>
>>Führer von Scientology.
>
>German, even if your girlfriend says otherwise, or that the word has a
>"narrow" meaning in the non-german world.
Indeed. A guidebook in German, for instance, may be sold as a
"Wanderführer", or "walking guide".
--
| Chris Owen - chr...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| WORLD'S BIGGEST SINCLAIR WEB ARCHIVE: |
| http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair |
| OFFLINE VERSION: http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair/plansinc.zip |
Boudewijn van Ingen
my answer shall be short. If anyone appreciates further contributions
from me, they'll probably have to wait until next tuesday... ;-(
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:11:16 GMT, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph Hilton)
wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:55:27 GMT, bo...@xs4all.nl (Boudewijn van Ingen)
>wrote:
>
>>Could you please point out where (in this TV report, presumably) Jesse
>>"supported" Pat Broeker and in what way? I must have missed the "lies"
>>in his statements.
>
>Jesse said that he wouldn't support DM against Broeker. Its in the webbed
>transcript.
That does not mean that Jesse "supported" Broeker (or both of them,
since he spoke of both in the show) in any way. As I understood
Jesse's words (as far as I could hear them "under" the German
voice-over, nasty habit of German TV) or the voice-over "translation"
of his words, there was nothing inconsistent with earlier versions of
history "as we know it".
I'll have to look at the transcript later. I merely watched the show
sofar.
>>>Gerry lied about the food on the RPF. I was on the RPF at the same time and
>>>place as Gerry. (CW - late 70s) I was assigned to work in the kitchen for a
>>>while. I saw the food that went everywhere. The RPF had just the same food.
>>>NO left-overs. The same food. Gerry you are lying!
>>
>>I have seen this discussion before. Seems to me like you have been the
>>lucky one, considering the different testimonies.
>
>I think my recent dialog with Gerry covers this.
Hmm. As I said, I've seen this very discussion before. And I remember
to have come to the same conclusion then as I do now.
What worries me a bit is your immediate accusations ("liar! liar!"),
even when it could have been "clear" to you that there are -at least-
two points of view on this subject. Such accusations do not exactly
promote an honest discussion of facts about the subject, methinks.
>>>I do not like this shit. I see a lot of things wrong with the CofS but I am
>>>not willing to tell lies about what I experienced.
>>
>>Do you consider everybody that does not support your version of "the
>>truth" to automatically be a liar?
>
>If I see one thing and someone says otherwise then I do tend to consider
>them to be telling untruths unless I find evidence that my eyesight was in
>some way impaired at the time.
Hmm. It would be healthy to consider some other possibilities too.
The "thruth" in Hubbie's teaching "it's true if it's true for you" has
nothing to do with something being "true", but it relates to reality,
which is generally subjective. Thus he would have been wiser (and
"clearer") if he would have said "it's *real*, if it is *real* for
you". Then again, that would be a commonly known "wisdom", which
Hubbie could never have used to "make money".
There are many realities, but only there is only so much truth...
>>>I left the CofS in 1982 after too much bullshit. It was bad in some ways. It
>>>was bad in such a way that I decided to leave.
>>>
>>>That program had a very heavy weighting against the CofS and was very
>>>malicious.
>>
>>I thought the outright *denials* about the RPF of that Co$ spokeswoman
>>to be "malicious".
>
>I don't have enough data to determine whether she was deliberately lying or
>just misinformed.
IMHO, either way it is "malicious". Whether she consciously told lies
or she was lied to by representatives of the Co$. In both cases it is
the Co$ that acts "maliciously" by telling lies, since she appears in
the show as a "spokesperson" for the cult.
>>>I would sugest pointing out the actual bad things the CofS is doing and
>>>leading it toward reform.
>>
>>You do your "thing" and others will do theirs.
>
>Inevitably.
>
>>So you think the RPF is not one of those "actual bad things" that need
>>"pointing out", then?
>
>It does need reform. I think I've stated my viewpoint on the RPF in my last
>reply to Gerry.
I don't think that any "church" needs an RPF based on the written
instructions it operates on in the Co$. It is a fascist idea.
>>I think you may have missed some (subtle?) references to Germany's
>>past, while you were watching that film.
>
>I pointed out one which Tilman disagreed with. I'll have to do a survey of
>people more aquainted with the ethnics of German speaking countries before
>making a conclusion about it.
You mean the "Fuhrer" thingie?? That small piece of prejudice you
demonstrated? ;-)
Just as an exaple: Personally I find these armbands the "convicted"
have to wear in the RPF "rather" distasteful. And I could sense that
the makers of the film felt the same way, by the attention they gave
to that. You are aware what the purpose of the "star" was the jews
were forced to sew onto their clothing during WW2? Have you seen the
tattoos?
Also pay close attention to that brother of Wiebke Hansen, when he
says "we don't want that here again, now do we?". Why do you think he
says that?
The racist and fascist ideas that Hubbie had clearly show through in
all his teachings. Or do you think Germany (and it's neighbours) could
be fooled twice?
>I would be interested in hearing what you thought the references were.
Hmm. I don't so much "think" these things "were" references.
I think Hubbie meant them that way. As with all "philosophies" (be it
Roman Catholisism, Buddaism, Freudianism, Nazism and many other -isms)
he stole some ideas that he could use to control people to make money
for him.
A rigid control structure "works". Uniforms "work". Giving people some
(be it false) sense of self-importance "works". Making people feel
guilty "works". Branding people who behave bad "works".
The "greatest number of dynamics". Yeah, riiiight.
Reform won't cut it. Get rid of Hubbies "scriptures", because *there*
it is that you can find your "ruin".
Ralph Hilton
wrote:
>I'm a little busy right now and the next few days as well. Therefore
>my answer shall be short. If anyone appreciates further contributions
>from me, they'll probably have to wait until next tuesday... ;-(
>
>On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:11:16 GMT, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph Hilton)
>wrote:
>Also pay close attention to that brother of Wiebke Hansen, when he
>says "we don't want that here again, now do we?". Why do you think he
>says that?
>
>The racist and fascist ideas that Hubbie had clearly show through in
>all his teachings. Or do you think Germany (and it's neighbours) could
>be fooled twice?
I'm busy too so I only respond to your major point.
I think they could be fooled a hundred times.
As could Americans or any others.
I think that what is needed is a real education not an indocrination.
Ralph Hilton
>In article <372b5ef4....@news.telekabel.at>, Ra...@Hilton.org wrote:
>
>> My (American) Random House College Dictionary defines Führer:
>>
>> "Führer n. German 1. Leader. 2. der Führer, the leader, applied to Adolf
>> Hitler. also Fuehrer."
>
>Well, as you said yourself, that's an American dictionary. It gives
>the denotations and connotations of non-English words as they are used
>in the English speaking community, in particular the United States.
>
>It says nothing useful about the connotation of a German word *in German*.
Maybe you missed Tilman's post where he agreed with me.
The quotes made the intent obvious.
Jonas Flygare
ra...@hilton.org (Ralph Hilton) writes:
> On 12 Mar 1999 13:06:34 +0100, Jonas Flygare <fl...@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> >Entering "Führer" at http://dict.leo.org/dict/frame-content.html gives
> >the following meanings:
> >
> >guide, leader, leaders, captain, headman, scoutmaster.
> >
> >Which of the above do you feel are biased?
> >
> >It's fairly obvious that the Co$ have a hangup on nazis, but the word
> >Führer does _not_ mean nazi.
>
> My (American) Random House College Dictionary defines Führer:
>
> "Führer n. German 1. Leader. 2. der Führer, the leader, applied to Adolf
> Hitler. also Fuehrer."
>
> Obviously opinions of the meaning vary regionally.
So, given the two, which do you think was meant when the show was
aired in german?
--
Ceci n'est pas un signature. (Censored by $cientology!)
Jonas Flygare
ra...@hilton.org (Ralph Hilton) writes:
> On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:15:03 GMT, til...@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr)
> wrote:
> > David Miscavige
> > "Führer" von Scientology
> >So this means that Reichelt did indeed intend to characterize the little
> >guy as a dictator.
Agreed, with the quotes there is no mistake in the meaning.
> ok. I missed mentioning the quotes when I first talked about it which alters
> the importance somewhat.
Goes to show how important quoting (pun intended) correctly is.
Xapped
[...]
> No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
> Miscavage with the caption:
>
> Führer von Scientology.
Can anybody get a jpg of this and post it to abs or web it?
Joe C.
Documentation on Scientology in German-speaking countries:
- http://cisar.org
Alex
>
> >Entering "Führer" at http://dict.leo.org/dict/frame-content.html gives
> >the following meanings:
> >
> >guide, leader, leaders, captain, headman, scoutmaster.
> >
> >Which of the above do you feel are biased?
> >
> >It's fairly obvious that the Co$ have a hangup on nazis, but the word
> >Führer does _not_ mean nazi.
>
> My (American) Random House College Dictionary defines Führer:
>
> "Führer n. German 1. Leader. 2. der Führer, the leader, applied to Adolf
> Hitler. also Fuehrer."
>
Here some German lessons for you:
The word "der" (article) is very importent here. It must be set if applied to
AH. AND it must be standalone. Means eg "Der Führer sprach" (...spoke) is
applied to AH. If you say "Der Führer von Scientology spoke" (...of Sc.
spoke....) it is not and never applied to AH.
But of course Reichelt had the possibility to use another expression here. I
don't know why he used thisone. I just can guess that...
> Obviously opinions of the meaning vary regionally.
About what regions do you talk?
>
> --
>
> Ralph Hilton
> http://Ralph.Hilton.org
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ralph Hilton
>On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Ralph Hilton wrote:
>
>[...]
>> No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
>> Miscavage with the caption:
>>
>> Führer von Scientology.
>
>Can anybody get a jpg of this and post it to abs or web it?
I put it on a.b.s. as a .bmp poor quality and 96k but you can get the point.
Ralph Hilton
>In article <372b5ef4....@news.telekabel.at>,
> Ra...@Hilton.org wrote:
>> On 12 Mar 1999 13:06:34 +0100, Jonas Flygare <fl...@algonet.se> wrote:
>>
>> >Entering "Führer" at http://dict.leo.org/dict/frame-content.html gives
>> >the following meanings:
>> >
>> >guide, leader, leaders, captain, headman, scoutmaster.
>> >
>> >Which of the above do you feel are biased?
>> >
>> >It's fairly obvious that the Co$ have a hangup on nazis, but the word
>> >Führer does _not_ mean nazi.
>>
>> My (American) Random House College Dictionary defines Führer:
>>
>> "Führer n. German 1. Leader. 2. der Führer, the leader, applied to Adolf
>> Hitler. also Fuehrer."
>>
>
>Here some German lessons for you:
>
>The word "der" (article) is very importent here. It must be set if applied to
>AH. AND it must be standalone. Means eg "Der Führer sprach" (...spoke) is
>applied to AH. If you say "Der Führer von Scientology spoke" (...of Sc.
>spoke....) it is not and never applied to AH.
>
>But of course Reichelt had the possibility to use another expression here. I
>don't know why he used this one. I just can guess that...
>
>> Obviously opinions of the meaning vary regionally.
>
>About what regions do you talk?
Well my main experience is in Austria - the birthplace of the Führer.
I live in Vienna. A-1060 14/13 Gumpendorferstaße. 0043 585 4215
None of the several Austrians whom I have shown the film to have disputed
what I have said.
Very kind of you to offer free German lessons but on this ocassion I'll
pass.
barb
Garry Scarff wrote:
> Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> > In <371b5ce9....@news.telekabel.at>, ra...@hilton.org (Ralph
> > Hilton) wrote:
> >
> > >No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
> > >Miscavage with the caption:
> > >
> > >Führer von Scientology.
> >
> > As I told you in e-mail, the word simply means "leader" or "guide" in
> > German,
>
> So, precisely, how does Tilman see Adolf Hitler a "leader" and "guide"?
Oh, come on! He's trying to convey the meaning of a German word, for pete's
sake. If I were trying to tell a German what 'humanitarian' means in Engrish,
does that mean I see Hubbard as a 'humanitarian?'
barb
--
How Scientology Keeps 'Em Brainwashed:
"We want to protect them against manipulated thoughts when they are at such a
spiritual level that they can't deal with criticism."
-Anette Refstrup (PR OSADenmark)
juergen
>ttlkuhw fvkp vjio xs Jtmuesr fdy
>Pzo Rvfrvbg Jpimzuq Ph Vhnbkt X y
>Yqondth ztffih Lwc
Thank You Dear Mrs Kobrin and all for translatin my posts even to
Kisuaheli!
So anybody in the world will know of your ethical behaviour (spit)
http://juergen.com/application/encareer.html
JB
Xapped
> On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:38:15 -0500, Xapped <ronsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Ralph Hilton wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >> No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of David
> >> Miscavage with the caption:
> >>
> >> Führer von Scientology.
> >
> >Can anybody get a jpg of this and post it to abs or web it?
>
> I put it on a.b.s. as a .bmp poor quality and 96k but you can get the point.
Thanks, Ralph. I was expecting something more dramatic, somehow.
Outside of that, I disagree that the program was a biased attack, because
the Danish woman gave the Scientology view very clearly. Would the
Scientologists bother to give the critic's view? No, they wouldn't. Now
tell me who is biased.
gerry armstrong
wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Ralph Hilton wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:38:15 -0500, Xapped <ronsm...@hotmail.com> wrote=
>:
>>=20
>> >On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Ralph Hilton wrote:
>> >
>> >[...]
>> >> No. The program was a biased attack on scn which showed a picture of D=
>avid
>> >> Miscavage with the caption:
>> >>=20
>> >> F=FChrer von Scientology.
>> >
>> >Can anybody get a jpg of this and post it to abs or web it?
>>=20
>> I put it on a.b.s. as a .bmp poor quality and 96k but you can get the poi=
>nt.
>
>Thanks, Ralph. I was expecting something more dramatic, somehow.
>
>Outside of that, I disagree that the program was a biased attack, because
>the Danish woman gave the Scientology view very clearly. Would the
>Scientologists bother to give the critic's view? No, they wouldn't. Now
>tell me who is biased.=20
I agree. Legitimate critics always are willing to present
$cientology's view. That's largely contained in Hubbard's
authenticated writings -- the SP policies, the intelligence policies,
the black propaganda policies, the fair game policy and so on, and,
for example in the writings of the wgert entities.
$cientology's view, succinctly, is that it is mankind's only hope, it
is supremely ethical, doing no wrong, and its critics all have crimes
and merit attacking. We the critics agree that this is $cientology's
view, and we are always willing to present this view.
The critics' view is that $cientology is not mankind's only hope, the
organization is supremely unethical, engaged in wrongs, and
$cientology's critics are, in the vast majority, people of good will
living good lives and meriting no attacks. $cientology has never yet
presented this view. Thus $cientology's presentations are biased and
bigoted.
(c) Gerry Armstrong
>
>Joe C.=20