Earth-1 Superman Help
Dan Nguyen
that Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" showed the
Earth-1 Superman's happy ending. Can anyone re-cap the story-line for
me?
KJV
I don't have the actual issues anymore, but I'll try to recap from memory.
I'm kind of rushing thru it too...
In the future, on the anniversary of the disappearance of Superman, a Daily
Planet reporter comes to Lois Lane's home to interview her about the Man of
Steel. Lois is married and has recently had a child. She begins the tale of
Superman's last days...
Superman's rougues gallery of villains begin attacking in a manner more
vicious than ever before. Bizzarro #1 finally figures out that to be the
true opposite of Superman, he must kill and destroy so he goes on a rampage
in Metropolis. Finally, he kills himself with Blue Kryptonite, because if
Superman is alive, then he must be dead. Later, some Superman action
figures arrive at WGBS, which turn out to be tiny robots with heat vision.
The robots gang up and burn the clothes offf Clark Kent, revealing his
identity to the WGBS/Daily Planet staff. The robots inform Superman of a
crate in the WGBS studio which contains the murdered body of Supes'
childhood friend Pete Ross. Superman sees the radio waves controlling the
robots and he follows them to the lair of the Toyman (and the Prankster, I
think?) who are responsible. There are more rampages by the Kryptonite man
and others. Finally, an army of Metallos invade (and destroy?) the Daily
Planet building. His worst nightmare come true (villains attacking him thru
his loved ones), Superman moves Jimmy Olsen, Lana Lang, Perry White,
Perry's wife and Lois Lane to the Fortress of Solitude. Later, the Legion
of Super-Heroes visit Superman. A past version of Supergirl is with them
which shakes up Superman (Supergirl had recently died in the Crisis on
Infinite Earths). The Legion wanted to visit Superman in what thier history
says is his darkest hour (between the lines: his death) and they give him a
statue of himself holding the Phantom Zone projector. The Legion leaves and
Superman breaks into tears. (End Part I)
Meanwhile, Luthor is seen in the arctic searching for Braniac, whose
ship had crashed there during one of his battles with Supes. He wants to
team up with Braniac to finally defeat Superman while he's at his most
vulnerable. He finds Braniac's deactivated head, which suddenly reactivates
and attaches itself to Luthor, taking him over.
Braniac/Luthor gather up Superman's remaining foes and uses them as an
army to attempt to break thru a forcefield around the Fortress of Solitude.
The JLA and other heroes also show up to help, but are kept out by the
field. The Legion of Super-Villains show up to aid Braniac/Luthor.
Lana Lang and Jimmy Olsen decide to help out. They go to a Fortress
display which commemorates the different ways Supes' friends have gotten
super-powers in the past. Jimmy becomes Elastic Lad, and Lana soaks in the
water of a magic pond that had given her Superman-like powers in a Superboy
story years earlier. They go outside to face Braniac/Luthor army, who are
close to breaking thru the force field. Lana breaks Luthor/Braniac's neck.
Jimmy is killed in a manner I cannot remember, and Lana is fried by
Lightning Lord of the LSV after one of the other villains neutralizes her
powers.
The villains break thru the force field and invade the Fortress, but
the JLA and other heroes are still being kept out somehow. Krypto is killed
by the Kryptonite Man. The Legion of Super-Villains confront Superman, and
Lightning Lord brags about his murder of Lana Lang. Superman loses it and
fires his full-power heat vision at the LSV. They freak, and go back to
the future.
Superman and Lois reason out the whole thing, and figure out that the
bad guy behind the past few days is Mr. Mxyzptlk. The 5th dimensional Imp
appears and explains that he's grown bored in his immortality and after
spending 5000? years being mischevous, he's going to spend the next 5000?
being evil. Superman pulls out the Phantom Zone projector (the Legion were
giving Supes a clue for how to win the day with thier statue). Mxyzptlk
says his name backwards to escape and Superman fires the projector, tearing
Mxyzptlk apart (half went to the Phantom Zone, the other to the 5th
dimension). Since he vowed to never kill, Superman exposes himself to Gold
Kryptonite and walks out into the arctic, never to be seen again.
Back in the future, Lois's husband comes home. He's a
greying-at-the-temples blue collar worker with a mustache. The reporter
thanks Lois for the interview and leaves. Lois brings the baby into the
living room and lets him play on the floor while Lois and her husband talk,
mostly about Superman and how 'full of himself' he was. The baby grabs a
lump of coal from a bin near the fireplace and crushes it into a diamond.
The husband (a depowered and retired Superman) winks at the reader. The
End.
HTH.
KJV
Jon Clark
>Ok, the Kingdom has gotten me interesten in DC history. I understand
>that Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" showed the
>Earth-1 Superman's happy ending. Can anyone re-cap the story-line for
>me?
>
The story begins in the future (10 years after Superman vanished, I think) with
a Daily Planet reporter coming to interview Lois Lane. Lois is now a married
woman and long since left reporting.
Lois tells the young reporter about the final days of Superman. A series of
attacks by Superman foes who are darker than before.
Bizarro goes on a rampage since in order to be Superman's opposite he decides
to kill (the opposite of Superman's vow to never kill) and ends by killing
himself (a dead Bizarro being the opposite of a living Superman).
The Prankster and the Toyman decide to seek out Superman's identity by
capturing and torturing Superman's friends until they find one who knows the
secret. They start with Pete Ross who reveals the secret before he dies.
Prankster and Toyman then set up Clark to expose the fact he is Superman.
Shortly thereafter Metallo leads an army of cyborgs in an attack on the Daily
Planet. The Planet Globe is destroyed in the process. This attack also
prompts Superman to take his supporting cast (Lois, Jimmy, Lana and the Whites)
into hiding for their own safety.
They go to the Fortress where Krypto joins them. The Fortress is soon besiged
by an army of Superman foes (Kryptonite Man, The three original members of the
Legion of Super-Villians). The assault is led by the robotic head of Brainiac
who is controlling the body of Lex Luthor. Brainiac has used his force shield
to seal out the JLA types from coming to Superman's aid.
In the course of battle Jimmy becomes Elastic Lad again and Lana uses a way to
gain Kryptonian-like powers from a 1960's story. Lana with her new powers
overhears Superman confess to Perry White that he always loved Lois but kept
his distance in part for fear of hurting Lana's feelings. Lana then joins
Jimmy in a suicidal run on Brainiac's force-field generator. They actually
manage to destroy the generator before being killed, but for some reason the
field remains intact
This is followed by the death of Krypto (who kills the Kryptonite Man in the
process) and a visit by the 1960's Legion including Supergirl. They have come
back to give Superman a gift to commemorate a historic event (which Superman
deduces is his own death).
At this point Brainiac is defeated and Superman realizes who is behind the
whiole series of events. The one major foe who has yet to make an appearance-
Mxyzptlk. It seems that Mxy outgrew his impish ways and is now pure evil.
Seeing no other way out (the force field is still up sustained by magic)-
Superman kills Mxy to protect the world.
Having taken a life Superman wanders into a room full of krytonite. He exposes
himself to Gold K and off into the Arctic never to be seen again.
The ending returns us to Lois and the reporter. Lois' husband comes in with
their son (who is the spitting image of Superbaby down to the playsuit). As
the reporter leaves we see Lois' son spill a coal bin and while playing with
the caol he crushes a piece into a diamond. The last panel is Lois' husband
closing the door and giving a famous wink to us in the audience.
It is a happy ending for Lois & "Clark", I guess, but not my idea of a happy
ending for Superman. He is now powerless and on his 3rd or 4th identity
(Kal-El, Clark Kent, Superman,...). His oldest friends are dead (Lana, Jimmy,
Pete Ross, and Krypto). Not exactly an upbeat tale.
Bruce L. Grubb
(Jon Clark) wrote:
>At this point Brainiac is defeated and Superman realizes who is behind the
>whiole series of events. The one major foe who has yet to make an appearance-
>Mxyzptlk. It seems that Mxy outgrew his impish ways and is now pure evil.
>Seeing no other way out (the force field is still up sustained by magic)-
>Superman kills Mxy to protect the world.
>Having taken a life Superman wanders into a room full of krytonite. He exposes
>himself to Gold K and off into the Arctic never to be seen again.
>The ending returns us to Lois and the reporter. Lois' husband comes in with
>their son (who is the spitting image of Superbaby down to the playsuit). As
>the reporter leaves we see Lois' son spill a coal bin and while playing with
>the caol he crushes a piece into a diamond. The last panel is Lois' husband
>closing the door and giving a famous wink to us in the audience.
>
>It is a happy ending for Lois & "Clark", I guess, but not my idea of a happy
>ending for Superman. He is now powerless and on his 3rd or 4th identity
>(Kal-El, Clark Kent, Superman,...). His oldest friends are dead (Lana, Jimmy,
>Pete Ross, and Krypto). Not exactly an upbeat tale.
Also there are several continuity holes in the ending. First the last
official Post-Crisis Superman story eliminated the Phantom Zone criminals,
Jewel K, and Mxyzptlk, so Mxyzptlk cannot be around to do all this.
Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
NOT have superpowers.
Finally as pointed out before Superman had killed before (living machines,
intellegent plants, the first Bizarro) so walking into the K vault makes
no sence from this POV.
In short for the "Imaginary Tale" to work large sections of Superman's
history have to go out the window.
jayembee
kj...@uswest.net wrote:
> Dan Nguyen wrote:
>> Ok, the Kingdom has gotten me interesten in DC history.
>> I understand that Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened to the
>> Man of Tomorrow" showed the Earth-1 Superman's happy
>> ending. Can anyone re-cap the story-line for me?
Dan, I urge you to pick up the Prestige Format reprint of
the 2-issue story. It's worth it.
> I don't have the actual issues anymore, but I'll try to
> recap from memory.
That is one detailed synopsis, coming as it does from memory.
I'm impressed.
--- jayembee (Jerry.B...@eds.com)
"Jerry held hostage -- Day 7."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
eternally
Bruce L. Grubb wrote:
>
> Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
> NOT have superpowers.
what previous evidence is there of this...? i can't recall...
-= e.
KJV
kj...@uswest.net wrote:
> > I don't have the actual issues anymore, but I'll try to
> > recap from memory.
>
> That is one detailed synopsis, coming as it does from memory.
> I'm impressed.
I don't think I could do that for any other comic (except WATCHMEN or
X-MEN: DARK PHOENIX SAGA perhaps). Left an indelible impression on my
15-year old brain it did.
KJV
Todd VerBeek
My pal Bruce L. Grubb said:
>Also there are several continuity holes in the ending.
....
>In short for the "Imaginary Tale" to work large sections of Superman's
>history have to go out the window.
And people wonder why DC decided to reboot the character and start over
with a clean slate.
Cheers, Todd
--
My reviews of new graphic novels can be found at <http://www.GraphicNovels.com>.
Most recently added: /You Are Here/ by Kyle Baker.
See <http://www.RZero.com/books/> for lots more reviews.
Bruce L. Grubb
<eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
In the "What happened at the end of the Crisis-LONG" thread Steve Parker
(spar...@mindspring.com) wrote:
>>(Also, I'd place "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" on Earth-AC,
>>which would preclude it from being Earth-Kingdom...)
>Good point! It fits on Earth-AC better than Earth1 (Gold K. on Earth1
>removes a Kryptonian's powers, but it also removes that Kryptonian's
>descendant's powers as well. (Superman 177 or so. Some Kandorians
>were exposed and voluntarily exiled themselves from Kandor, lest they
>pass the powerlessness along. They lived in a doll house in Jimmy's
>apartment for a while iirc. Of course that was also the story narrated
>by a piece of talking Gold K...)
I should point out that this story was reprinted in the _Best of DC Blue
Ribbon Digest_ "Kyrptonite, its a killer" The story creates continuity
problems for the later phantom zone stories in that the Gold K is sent to
the Zone. The criminals there state that even if they did escape they
would have no super powers.
Steve Parker
wrote:
>
>
>Bruce L. Grubb wrote:
>
>>
>> Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
>> NOT have superpowers.
>
>what previous evidence is there of this...? i can't recall...
>
A horribly bad series in Superman (around the 170s) called "Tales of
<color> Kryptonite" We followed the adventures of a piece of
Kryptonite (that talked.....oh, that wacky Wesienger) as it went
through transformations to the various kinds of Kryptonite. It started
out Green, "I don't want to harm Superboy! I wish he would somehow get
rid of me" thinks the Green K. Someone does and the Green K is thrown
into space, naturally intersecting that cosmic cloud and coming back
Red K. etc. Eventually it becomes Gold K (around issue 177) and it
affects two Kandorians (a man and woman). It's there where we learn
that Gold K radiates (it's not just touch only) it and when the two
Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
through all our people!" so they go to live in a doll house in Jimmy
Olsen's bachelor pad (after Superman, granted authority by the Science
Council marries them). They showed up several other times.
I vaguely recall that this was later used as an explanation of why
they don't expose the P-Zone criminals to Gold K. They're afraid that
the P-Zoners, once released (only Jax-Ur has a life sentence) will
have children and eventually no Kandorian will have potential powers.
(although at the end of this story, Superman beams the Gold K into the
P-Zone so if any criminals escape, the Gold K will depower them.
Note that despite the obvious silliness of the concept, it was not an
imaginary story (none of that "On a day that may or may not ever
happen" stuff." and since, as far as I know, it's one of only four
times Gold K was ever used on a Kryptonian (not counting the Great
Darkness Saga), it's gotta be taken as cannon.
Steve
PS: I got curious and dug up the issues: Tales of
Green K: Superman 173, 176
Red K: Superman 177
Gold K: 179
Bruce L. Grubb
VerBeek) wrote:
>re: "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"
>
>My pal Bruce L. Grubb said:
>>Also there are several continuity holes in the ending.
>....
>>In short for the "Imaginary Tale" to work large sections of Superman's
>>history have to go out the window.
>
>And people wonder why DC decided to reboot the character and start over
>with a clean slate.
Accually the Superman reboot was more to adress some fundimental problems
with the character then anything to do with his history. The number of
Kryptonians that were showing up made wonder if only a few neighbors has
died with Krypton (Kal-El parents were reveiled to have survived in a
quickly forgotten Superboy story). Another problem was Superman's power
level were simple too high which result many plot devices (like K or
magic) showing up with annoying regularity.
The failure of writers to follow the depowering set forth in the Sand
Superman saga likily convinced DC that without a total reboot they would
quickly be right back to square one.
Sean MacDonald
>
> Also there are several continuity holes in the ending. First the last
> official Post-Crisis Superman story eliminated the Phantom Zone criminals,
> Jewel K, and Mxyzptlk, so Mxyzptlk cannot be around to do all this.
Yeah, but that was such a stinker of a story, I'd rather
retcon it away rather than the Last Superman Story (which
was Imaginary anyway).
> Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
> NOT have superpowers.
So assume he was instead accidentally exposed to one of
those freakish Red/Gold K amalgams (or was it Red/Gold/Green
that depowered Superman while allowing his child to be powered?).
> Finally as pointed out before Superman had killed before (living machines,
> intellegent plants, the first Bizarro) so walking into the K vault makes
> no sence from this POV.
But it makes sense from *Superman's* point of view.
He finally killed someone that he felt like he shouldn't
have.
> In short for the "Imaginary Tale" to work large sections of Superman's
> history have to go out the window.
Just one awful story and one fudging on the Gold K bit.
--
-SM
"It seemed a dreadful injustice that these wise races should perish
at the hands of creatures who were still little more than animals. It
was as if vultures feasted on and squabbled over the paralyzed body
of the youthful poet who could only stare at them with puzzled eyes
as they slowly robbed him of an exquisite existence they would never
appreciate, never know they were taking. 'If they valued what they
stole, if they knew what they were destroying...then I would be
consoled.'" -Michael Moorcock
Steve Parker
Parker) wrote:
> when the two
>Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
>Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
>on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
>through all our people!"
D'oh! Obviously, that should say "...inherit our INability to
acquire..."
Steve
(Once again replying to himself)
Steve Parker
wrote:
>
>I should point out that this story was reprinted in the _Best of DC Blue
>Ribbon Digest_ "Kyrptonite, its a killer" The story creates continuity
>problems for the later phantom zone stories in that the Gold K is sent to
>the Zone. The criminals there state that even if they did escape they
>would have no super powers.
it "escapes" the Zone (actually it was very nice Kryptonite, and was
happy to be stationed there, doing good) and becomes White K. But I
couldn't find it flipping through Superman 180-190.
Steve
Aaron Mojo
tears... Mainly because the first time I read it, knowing what had happened to
the Earth-1 Superman with the Crisis, I had NO idea how it was gonna end and
was totally surprised when Clark winked at me.
*Sniff*
-Aaron!
Us do OPPOSITE of all Earthly things! Us HATE beauty! Us LOVE ugliness!
Am BIG CRIME to make anything PERFECT on BIZARRO WORLD!
Jon Clark
>Eventually it becomes Gold K (around issue 177) and it
>affects two Kandorians (a man and woman). It's there where we learn
>that Gold K radiates (it's not just touch only) it and when the two
>Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
>Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
>on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
>through all our people!"
I question that story on a few counts. First- since Gold K only existed after
Krypton went "boom" and was used all of four times in continuity- how did
anyone know for sure the longterm effects? Without showing the actual powerless
children, there is the possibilty that as a later "imaginary story" asserted
"Acquired characteristics are not inheritable"
And if the affected couple feared spreading their "altered genes" into the
Kryptonain gene pool what exactly was Van-Zee doing by marrying an Earth woman?
Wouldn't their offspring spread non-powered human genes through the gene pool-
and if not couldn't the Gold-K couple use the same procedure Van-Zee's wife
used to prevent passing on the Gold-K effects?
jayembee
spar...@mindspring.com wrote:
>> when the two Kandorians are depowered and say "We must
>> not return to Kandor, Jay-Ree!
"Jay-Ree"?? Gee, even my *nickname* is Kryptonian! :-)
(My actual first name is "Jerel", and some of my fannish
friends call me "Jer-El".)
--- jayembee (Jerry.B...@eds.com)
"Jerry held hostage -- Day 8."
Steve Parker
>Steve Parker writes:
>
>>Eventually it becomes Gold K (around issue 177) and it
>>affects two Kandorians (a man and woman). It's there where we learn
>>that Gold K radiates (it's not just touch only) it and when the two
>>Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
>>Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
>>on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
>>through all our people!"
>
>I question that story on a few counts. First- since Gold K only existed after
>Krypton went "boom" and was used all of four times in continuity- how did
>anyone know for sure the longterm effects? Without showing the actual powerless
>children, there is the possibilty that as a later "imaginary story" asserted
>"Acquired characteristics are not inheritable"
The ultimate trump card: Superman said so. ; ) Remember, this being
a Weisinger book, Superman is never wrong about matters of substance,
and in this story, he sanctioned their exile from Kandor saying it was
for the good of Kandor. (I agree, though, that it would be an easy
retcon to say that everyone was wrong, and their kids did have Super
powers.)
>And if the affected couple feared spreading their "altered genes" into the
>Kryptonain gene pool what exactly was Van-Zee doing by marrying an Earth woman?
> Wouldn't their offspring spread non-powered human genes through the gene pool-
>and if not couldn't the Gold-K couple use the same procedure Van-Zee's wife
>used to prevent passing on the Gold-K effects?
But Gold-K mutated Kryptonian genes are not the same as human genes.
A strongly implied theme in Silver-Age Superman stories was that
Kryptonian genes are dominant over Earth genes. I'm basing this on
imaginary stories (because, other than Van-Zee and Sylvia we have no
other examples of a Kryptonian/Terran mix....they *did* have kids?
Right?) Anyway, in every imaginary story but one that I can think of
where Superman and LL had kids, the kids ended up with powers.
Steve
Todd VerBeek
>>
>>My pal Bruce L. Grubb said:
>>>In short for the "Imaginary Tale" to work large sections of Superman's
>>>history have to go out the window.
>ver...@bigfoot.com (Todd VerBeek) wrote:
>>And people wonder why DC decided to reboot the character and start over
>>with a clean slate.
My pal Bruce L. Grubb said:
>Accually the Superman reboot was more to adress some fundimental problems
>with the character then anything to do with his history.
And the tendency of fans to nitpick over "continuity holes" in otherwise
excellent stories had little to do with it? I wouldn't be so sure.
>The number of
>Kryptonians that were showing up made wonder if only a few neighbors has
>died with Krypton
Which is really just "a problem with his history", isn't it? After all,
any of these survivors could have been eliminated by editorial fiat.
>(Kal-El parents were reveiled to have survived in a
>quickly forgotten Superboy story).
But it =wasn't= "quickly forgotten". It was - and still is - brought up
repeatedly by continuity mavens who won't =let= it be forgotten.
>Another problem was Superman's power
>level were simple too high which result many plot devices (like K or
>magic) showing up with annoying regularity.
>The failure of writers to follow the depowering set forth in the Sand
>Superman saga likily convinced DC that without a total reboot they would
>quickly be right back to square one.
So you're saying that DC simply had no faith in the ability of its editors
to do their job?
The reboot included no inherent protection against power-level creep, any
more than the Sand Superman business did. What has prevented it (mostly)
is simple editorial determination: Byrne stuck to his depowered version,
and those who've followed him have (mostly) followed his lead. But they
could again have Superman moving moons around any time they wanted.
Alan Meisler
> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:17:28 GMT, eternally <eter...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Bruce L. Grubb wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
> >> NOT have superpowers.
> >
> >what previous evidence is there of this...? i can't recall...
> >
> A horribly bad series in Superman (around the 170s) called "Tales of
> <color> Kryptonite" We followed the adventures of a piece of
> Kryptonite (that talked.....oh, that wacky Wesienger) as it went
> through transformations to the various kinds of Kryptonite. It started
> out Green, "I don't want to harm Superboy! I wish he would somehow get
> rid of me" thinks the Green K. Someone does and the Green K is thrown
> into space, naturally intersecting that cosmic cloud and coming back
> Red K. etc. Eventually it becomes Gold K (around issue 177) and it
> affects two Kandorians (a man and woman). It's there where we learn
> that Gold K radiates (it's not just touch only) it and when the two
> Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
> Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
> on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
> through all our people!" so they go to live in a doll house in Jimmy
> Olsen's bachelor pad (after Superman, granted authority by the Science
> Council marries them). They showed up several other times.
This is one problem I've always found with the Gold-K concept....How
did they know what it would do? The effects of green and red K are
obvious. Gold-K has only been used a few times. Is there any evidence
that the effects are 1) permanent and 2) passed on? AFAIK, none of the "victims"
have had children to show either. It's very possible that everyone just
*assumed* the gold-K effects would be passed on.
Certainly the post-Crisis Superman
didn't believe that the process could never be reversed. (Else he wouldn't
have felt the need to green-K the Pocket Universe heroes.)
[...]
> Note that despite the obvious silliness of the concept, it was not an
> imaginary story (none of that "On a day that may or may not ever
> happen" stuff." and since, as far as I know, it's one of only four
> times Gold K was ever used on a Kryptonian (not counting the Great
> Darkness Saga), it's gotta be taken as cannon.
Actually, there's no reason it "gotta be taken as cannon." There are
a number of one-shot stories that have been ignored and considered
*not* cannon. The most obvious one is the Mopee story from Flash.
(Flash received powers from alien named Mopee.) The second obvious
(and cited) story had the secret behind the Superman/Clark Kent
disguise working being an effect of super-glasses on super-hypnotism.
(Which worked over television and cameras!) If a story element has
only appeared once (and in a bad story to boot!), there is no reason
to assume it will be followed. The fact that Superman's parents'
rocket ship coffin has never appeared again, and Superman never refers
to his "sleeping/comatose parents" points this out.
>
> Steve
Alan
Alan Meisler
(Bruce L. Grubb) wrote:
> In article <19981221002154...@ng01.aol.com>, jonc...@aol.com
> (Jon Clark) wrote:
>
> Also there are several continuity holes in the ending. First the last
> official Post-Crisis Superman story eliminated the Phantom Zone criminals,
> Jewel K, and Mxyzptlk, so Mxyzptlk cannot be around to do all this.
> Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
> NOT have superpowers.
> Finally as pointed out before Superman had killed before (living machines,
> intellegent plants, the first Bizarro) so walking into the K vault makes
> no sence from this POV.
>
> In short for the "Imaginary Tale" to work large sections of Superman's
> history have to go out the window.
1) It all depends on the interpretation, and you can interpret the events
in different ways. (It is an Alan Moore story, after all :)
Remember, while Kal-El's exposure to gold-K is strongly implied, there is no
actual proof that this happened. Everything in the story is a flashback,
being told by Lois Lane to a reporter. She could be lying!
The posts in this thread are using the interpretation that the story
happened exactly as Lois Lane tells it.
However ....
How about the interpretation that at the end of the story Kal-El merely
retires? The gold-K ending could easily be a cover story told by Lois
Lane to logically explain why Superman was no longer active. It is a
clean ending that would not be refuted, and would make people finally
stop waiting for his return.
Not only would this intepretation not conflict with the (forgettable :)
previous gold-k story, it also explains how Kal-El could live with the
daily guilt over all the people who died since who he could legitimately
have saved but didn't. (I'm thinking more along the lines of people
being hit by cars in front of him, as opposed to faceless victims of
natural disasters, and such.) As a retired, but fully powered, Kal-El,
he could easily act without being seen.
IIRC, Superman's vow was not to give up his super-powers if he ever
took a life, but rather to give up the mantle of Superman.
Superman is not just Kal-El with super-powers. He is a public figure,
an icon, with a position as moral role model. This is what he gave
up at the end of the story. (IMO)
2) As for the taking of life, this is also up to interpretation.
Yes, Superman has killed other beings. However, we are never really
given Superman's interpretation of "a life". Presumably, his definition
of "life not to be killed" involves some combination of living, intelligent
and something else that I would call "soul-containing". (Though this is
not something that could easily be explained. Just ask The Church :)
For instance, Bizarro, while being "intelligent", is not considered to
be "alive". (I'm not sure if it was the pre- or post-Crisis Superman
that actually stated that it was okay to destroy him because he
wasn't alive, but the two versions of Bizarro are close enough that
I think the reasoning follows.) Likewise, "living machines" might not
be considered to having "souls". While I may not agree with this
interpretation, it's his and not mine.
3) This only leave the relatively minor plotholes of the Phantom Zone
villains and Mxyzptlk. IIRC, the story you refer to was from the last
issue of DC Comics Presents, which came out pretty much at the same
time as the Moore stories, so you could easily argue the Gerber wasn't
up to continuity instead :)
--Alan
Steve Parker
Meisler) wrote:
>> Note that despite the obvious silliness of the concept, it was not an
>> imaginary story (none of that "On a day that may or may not ever
>> happen" stuff." and since, as far as I know, it's one of only four
>> times Gold K was ever used on a Kryptonian (not counting the Great
>> Darkness Saga), it's gotta be taken as cannon.
>
>Actually, there's no reason it "gotta be taken as cannon." There are
>a number of one-shot stories that have been ignored and considered
>*not* cannon. The most obvious one is the Mopee story from Flash.
>(Flash received powers from alien named Mopee.) The second obvious
>(and cited) story had the secret behind the Superman/Clark Kent
>disguise working being an effect of super-glasses on super-hypnotism.
>(Which worked over television and cameras!)
I kinda liked the super-hypnotism story....(I'm not proud that I do,
mind you, but..)
> If a story element has
>only appeared once (and in a bad story to boot!), there is no reason
>to assume it will be followed.
Except I'm pretty sure that Jay-Ree and Joenne showed up a few more
times in (maybe) Jimmy Olsen. I can't cite any issues, and it's only a
vague memory, but I'm somewhat confidant that they appeared again.
I'm perfectly happy to forget about Mopee, the irradiated and comatose
Jor-El and Lara that Superboy found and even Black Zero (the man who
"really" blew up Krypton). Those are one time occurances that grossly
violate previous stories for the worse. But, since Gold K appeared
regularly and was only used 4 or 5 times and each time was consistant
with all the others, I think it's reasonable to consider the story
"cannon" as far as the term can be used. Joenne and Jay-Ree are
pretty confident about what'll happen to their kids. The way they
discuss it, it sounds like something they *know*. Possibly the Science
Council did research on Gold-K when it was first "discovered" (about
20 issues earlier).
I'd be fine with an E1 story where Jay-Ree and Joenne have kids and
the kids *do* turn out to be super-powered and everyone turned out to
be wrong, but until then, I've got to go with what was printed.
Steve
Jon Clark
>Remember, while Kal-El's exposure to gold-K is strongly implied, there is no
>actual proof that this happened. Everything in the story is a flashback,
>being told by Lois Lane to a reporter. She could be lying!
>
>The posts in this thread are using the interpretation that the story
>happened exactly as Lois Lane tells it.
>
>However ....
>
>How about the interpretation that at the end of the story Kal-El merely
>retires? The gold-K ending could easily be a cover story told by Lois
>Lane to logically explain why Superman was no longer active. It is a
>clean ending that would not be refuted, and would make people finally
>stop waiting for his return.
>
>Not only would this intepretation not conflict with the (forgettable :)
>previous gold-k story, it also explains how Kal-El could live with the
>daily guilt over all the people who died since who he could legitimately
>have saved but didn't. (I'm thinking more along the lines of people
>being hit by cars in front of him, as opposed to faceless victims of
>natural disasters, and such.) As a retired, but fully powered, Kal-El,
>he could easily act without being seen.
>
>IIRC, Superman's vow was not to give up his super-powers if he ever
>took a life, but rather to give up the mantle of Superman.
>Superman is not just Kal-El with super-powers. He is a public figure,
>an icon, with a position as moral role model. This is what he gave
>up at the end of the story. (IMO)
>
It also explains how Superman survived wandering off into the Arctic. (Though
there were a few other methods possible- none were mentioned in the story).
al.sch...@nashville.com
> > NOT have superpowers.
>
None. It's not true. Scientifically nor within the stories. (Acquired
characteristics are not inherited. ENB didn't know a lot of science, but he
knew THAT much, and would have sotpped any writer who tried to pretend that
was the case. He did it in other cases.) Secondly, (modest cough here) I have
a knowledge of the Silver Age Superman second only to ENB's, and there was no
such story that _I_ ever saw...in Superman, Superboy, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen,
and Action. If it was ever mentioned in some story I never saw (shrug) it was
a mistake. (I should know. With Marty Pasko, I co-wrote the single most
reviled Superman story ever, the explanation of how the glasses worked as a
disguise in the mid-Seventies, and I met my wife through the Superman comics
lettercols.) Me and my wife--I used to be a letterhack who signed it Al
Schroeder III in the seventies--honeymooned in NYC, and met with Julie
Schwartz, Cary Bates, et al on the fourth day of our honeymoon at DC. (We
were also some of the judges for the BEST SUPERMAN STORIES EVER TOLD,
although what was finally picked only matches what we selected in a very few
cases.)--Al
>
> -= e.
>
>
--
Al Schroeder
http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/journal.htm
Mikel Midnight
> Anyway, in every imaginary story but one that I can think of
> where Superman and LL had kids, the kids ended up with powers.
Yes, although not in predictable ways. Superman Jr. had roughly half the
strength of his father. Superman's and Lois's daughter from the _Superman
Family_ special was powerless until puberty, when her abilities slowly
started to develop. And in one other story the two had a pair of male
twins, one with the full set of powers and one with no powers.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"She always had a terrific sense of humor" Mikel Midnight
(Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
blak...@best.com
__________________________________________________http://www.best.com/~blaklion
user...@my-dejanews.com
> Schroeder III in the seventies--honeymooned in NYC, and met with Julie
> Schwartz, Cary Bates, et al on the fourth day of our honeymoon at DC. (We
> were also some of the judges for the BEST SUPERMAN STORIES EVER TOLD,
> although what was finally picked only matches what we selected in a very few
> cases.)--Al
>
> >
> > -= e.
> >
> >
>
> --
> Al Schroeder
> http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/journal.htm
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
--
G-Fan
live from Monster Island
Tom Galloway
Alan Meisler <amei...@opal.tufts.edu> wrote:
>For instance, Bizarro, while being "intelligent", is not considered to
>be "alive". (I'm not sure if it was the pre- or post-Crisis Superman
>that actually stated that it was okay to destroy him because he
>wasn't alive, but the two versions of Bizarro are close enough that
>I think the reasoning follows.) Likewise, "living machines" might not
>be considered to having "souls". While I may not agree with this
>interpretation, it's his and not mine.
For a long time, pre-Crisis, I really wanted to pitch a DC Comics Presents
story with Superman, the Metal Men, Red Tornado, and maybe Robotman. In
it, Superman would casually destroy some sentient robots while giving his
"they're not really alive" speech. Meanwhile, all the other characters
are going "Um, you're saying *we're* not alive?! Just what criteria
are you using here?".
Problem was, I could never come up with an ending other than Superman
exposing himself to Gold K, and I'd a feeling that wouldn't fly with
editorial.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Tom Galloway
<al.sch...@nashville.com> wrote:
>was the case. He did it in other cases.) Secondly, (modest cough here) I have
>a knowledge of the Silver Age Superman second only to ENB's, and there was no
Yeah, yeah, where were you when we needed you at last summer's Waid/Morrissey,
er, pro/fan pre-reboot Superman trivia match in San Diego? :-)
tyg t...@netcom.com
Joseph T. Arendt
In a previous article, amei...@opal.tufts.edu (Alan Meisler) says:
...
>The second obvious
>(and cited) story had the secret behind the Superman/Clark Kent
>disguise working being an effect of super-glasses on super-hypnotism.
>(Which worked over television and cameras!)
It was funny how the super-hypnotism made Clark look. Balding and
most unsuper! Ha, ha! It didn't make much sense, but was good for
a laugh!
Joseph Arendt
John Bilow
>
>
>
>
>
>In a previous article, amei...@opal.tufts.edu (Alan Meisler) says:
>>The second obvious
>>(and cited) story had the secret behind the Superman/Clark Kent
>>disguise working being an effect of super-glasses on super-hypnotism.
>>(Which worked over television and cameras!)
>
>It was funny how the super-hypnotism made Clark look. Balding and
>most unsuper! Ha, ha! It didn't make much sense, but was good for
>a laugh!
>
> Joseph Arendt
Any book where the super villian defeats superman with a record
player, is worth it just for the curiosity factor.
John Bilow
To reply, replace "fakeaddress.com" with "hotmail.com"
Steve Parker
>In article <367EAD99...@hotmail.com>,
> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bruce L. Grubb wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
>> > NOT have superpowers.
>>
>> what previous evidence is there of this...? i can't recall...
>
>
>None. It's not true. Scientifically nor within the stories. (Acquired
>characteristics are not inherited.
Sez who? In the real world, you're certainly correct, but in the real
world, nothing mutates people instantly like Red K does or gives
temporary, non-culmulative radiation poisoning like Green K. No
Kryptonite variant acts in a "real world" fashion. Best we can hope
for is self consistent. (Besides, what if Gold K mutates the
sperm/eggs of Kryptonians? We know that reproductive cells can be
damaged by radiation....)
> ENB didn't know a lot of science, but he
>knew THAT much, and would have sotpped any writer who tried to pretend that
>was the case. He did it in other cases.) Secondly, (modest cough here) I have
>a knowledge of the Silver Age Superman second only to ENB's, and there was no
>such story that _I_ ever saw...in Superman, Superboy, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen,
>and Action. If it was ever mentioned in some story I never saw (shrug) it was
>a mistake.
Superman #179: the second time Gold K was ever used so it's certainly
true in the stories. Since it was only one of 3 times I can ever think
of that Gold K was used on a Kryptonian (Martian Manhunter's exposure
doesn't count here) in a non-Imaginary story, and since it doesn't
contradict anything in the other two (Quex-Ul in Superman #159 and the
Kryptonian Wrestler Guy from Superman #204) I'm not sure how you've
come to the conclusion that this was a mistake (a bad idea, maybe).
It's certainly not contradicted by the internal evidence.
Besides, on page #375 of the Superman Encyclopedia, Fleisher comments
"data concerning Gold Kryptonite is sparse beyond the fact that it can
be shielded by lead.....and that a Kryptonian's loss of super-powers
by Gold Kryptonite exposure would invariably be inherited by his or
her offspring, thereby rendering the offspring incapable of acquiring
super-powers in those environments -like that of Earth- where
Kryptonian survivors normally acquire them."
> (I should know. With Marty Pasko, I co-wrote the single most
>reviled Superman story ever, the explanation of how the glasses worked as a
>disguise in the mid-Seventies,
Just as an aside, I liked that story.
Steve
Steve Parker
>In article <ameisler-221...@pignoli.med.tufts.edu>,
>Alan Meisler <amei...@opal.tufts.edu> wrote:
>>For instance, Bizarro, while being "intelligent", is not considered to
>>be "alive". (I'm not sure if it was the pre- or post-Crisis Superman
>>that actually stated that it was okay to destroy him because he
>>wasn't alive, but the two versions of Bizarro are close enough that
>>I think the reasoning follows.) Likewise, "living machines" might not
>>be considered to having "souls". While I may not agree with this
>>interpretation, it's his and not mine.
>
>For a long time, pre-Crisis, I really wanted to pitch a DC Comics Presents
>story with Superman, the Metal Men, Red Tornado, and maybe Robotman. In
>it, Superman would casually destroy some sentient robots while giving his
>"they're not really alive" speech. Meanwhile, all the other characters
>are going "Um, you're saying *we're* not alive?! Just what criteria
>are you using here?".
Heartbeat. I think that this is a dumb standard, but...at least once
(around Superman #312 or so) Superman is about to "destroy" a
"non-living" alien (that thinks, walks, talks etc) UNTIL it's heart
starts beating. Superman must then find another method of defeating
it. Note: despite this, it's one of Elliot S! Maggin's best Superman
stories ever. I don't agree with this standard but it did have the
benefit of being consistant.
Steve
al.sch...@nashville.com
The two part "Powerstone" series in the forties, where Superman lost his
powers but Luthor was made near-omnipotent. The story, mentioned in the GREAT
SUPERMAN BOOK, where enamations from a comet rushing to Earth, emanations
which normal humans couldn't even detect, effected Superman via his
super-senses, and gave him amnesia, so he didn't know he was Superman and
could save the world from the onrushing comet. (Sound familiar, perhaps? It
was the basis for "Panic in the Sky", the best Superman TV show.) The first
Luthor appearance, for historical appearances. (The one usually reprinted was
the second.) "Superman's Return to Krypton", the first Lyla Lerroll story.
The first Virus X story; the first Nightwing and Flamebird story (for those
who don't remember, Superman and Jimmy Olsen functioned as a Batman and Robin
for the bottled city of Kandor) which pitted Superman AGAINST his fellow
Kryptonains from Kandor. "The Death of Superman", the first and best of the
imaginary stories (written by Siegel, as was "Superman's Return to Krypton".)
"The Sweetheart Superman Forgot", the first Sally Selwyn story. Those are all
I remember. Oh, and I did argue for the inclusion of the Alan Moore "For the
Man Who Has Everything..." Superman Annual--Al.
Disruptor
>
> > >Eventually it becomes Gold K (around issue 177) and it
> > >affects two Kandorians (a man and woman). It's there where we learn
> > >that Gold K radiates (it's not just touch only) it and when the two
> > >Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
> > >Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
> > >on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
> > >through all our people!"
> >
> > Krypton went "boom" and was used all of four times in continuity- how did
> > anyone know for sure the longterm effects? Without showing the actual
> powerless
> > children, there is the possibilty that as a later "imaginary story" asserted
> > "Acquired characteristics are not inheritable"
> >
> > Kryptonain gene pool what exactly was Van-Zee doing by marrying an Earth
> woman?
> > Wouldn't their offspring spread non-powered human genes through the gene
> pool-
> > and if not couldn't the Gold-K couple use the same procedure Van-Zee's wife
> > used to prevent passing on the Gold-K effects?
>
> not very well versed in genetics, and didn't stop to realize that acquired
> characteristics couldn't be inherited.--Al.
Here's something that's been bothering me. Kara Zor-El was exposed to
Gold-K twice. The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off
wildly. The second time it was acting very slowly and once she was out
of the range of the rays her powers started coming back. Want to take a
shot at explaning the first one, since it lasted for several issues in
of the Supergirl comic runs?
Disruptor
>
> On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:51:24 -0500, Disruptor <math...@gte.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Here's something that's been bothering me. Kara Zor-El was exposed to
> >Gold-K twice. The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off
> >wildly. The second time it was acting very slowly and once she was out
> >of the range of the rays her powers started coming back. Want to take a
> >shot at explaning the first one, since it lasted for several issues in
> >of the Supergirl comic runs?
> Which issues? I'd love to read it/them.
I think the first run of the Supergirl comic. One of the comments that
Kara made because of her powers and what she did to try and stabalize
them "I feel like a wind-up toy with all the devices in me." I wonder
if she had the implants removed after she had her powers re-stabalised
or if she remained a cyborg for the rest of her life.
> Just as a btw: as far as I'm concerned, not having read the story
> admittedly, any story in which the effects of Gold K aren't permanant
> are non-cannon. The minute people start getting better from Gold-K, it
> stops being a real threat and starts being another shade of Red
> Kryptonite. (The Phantom Zone mini was an exception: I'm ok with
> Quex-Ul getting his powers back from that demon/sorcerer/thing.)
I don't know how she gained them back. I've been finding theese old
issues in a 10 cent bin.
> Steve
al.sch...@nashville.com
t...@netcom.com (Tom Galloway) wrote:
> In article <75r20u$jef$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <al.sch...@nashville.com> wrote:
> >was the case. He did it in other cases.) Secondly, (modest cough here) I have
> >a knowledge of the Silver Age Superman second only to ENB's, and there was no
>
> er, pro/fan pre-reboot Superman trivia match in San Diego? :-)
<g> I would have liked to be there. Rich Morrissey is on a listserv I run
about Silver Age comics.--Al
al.sch...@nashville.com
> >Eventually it becomes Gold K (around issue 177) and it
> >affects two Kandorians (a man and woman). It's there where we learn
> >that Gold K radiates (it's not just touch only) it and when the two
> >Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
> >Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
> >on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
> >through all our people!"
>
> I question that story on a few counts. First- since Gold K only existed after
> Krypton went "boom" and was used all of four times in continuity- how did
> anyone know for sure the longterm effects? Without showing the actual
powerless
> children, there is the possibilty that as a later "imaginary story" asserted
> "Acquired characteristics are not inheritable"
>
> And if the affected couple feared spreading their "altered genes" into the
> Kryptonain gene pool what exactly was Van-Zee doing by marrying an Earth
woman?
> Wouldn't their offspring spread non-powered human genes through the gene
pool-
> and if not couldn't the Gold-K couple use the same procedure Van-Zee's wife
> used to prevent passing on the Gold-K effects?
OF course, the simplest explanation is that the Kryptonian couple were simply
not very well versed in genetics, and didn't stop to realize that acquired
characteristics couldn't be inherited.--Al.
--
JohannaLD
>Kara Zor-El was exposed to
>Gold-K twice. The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off
>wildly.
Wasn't that in the same run when they treated the Phantom Zone
like a place you could fly to in a spaceship? The explanation's
easy: Sekowsky. :)
Johanna
Steve Parker
wrote:
>al.sch...@nashville.com wrote:
>>
>> > >Eventually it becomes Gold K (around issue 177) and it
>> > >affects two Kandorians (a man and woman). It's there where we learn
>> > >that Gold K radiates (it's not just touch only) it and when the two
>> > >Kandorians are depowered and say "We must not return to Kandor,
>> > >Jay-Ree! Our children will inherit our ability to acquire super-powers
>> > >on Earth.! In time, by intermarriage with others, this would spread
>> > >through all our people!"
>> >
>> > I question that story on a few counts. First- since Gold K only existed after
>> > Krypton went "boom" and was used all of four times in continuity- how did
>> > anyone know for sure the longterm effects? Without showing the actual
>> powerless
>> > children, there is the possibilty that as a later "imaginary story" asserted
>> > "Acquired characteristics are not inheritable"
>> >
>> > And if the affected couple feared spreading their "altered genes" into the
>> > Kryptonain gene pool what exactly was Van-Zee doing by marrying an Earth
>> woman?
>> > Wouldn't their offspring spread non-powered human genes through the gene
>> pool-
>> > and if not couldn't the Gold-K couple use the same procedure Van-Zee's wife
>> > used to prevent passing on the Gold-K effects?
>>
>> OF course, the simplest explanation is that the Kryptonian couple were simply
>> not very well versed in genetics, and didn't stop to realize that acquired
>> characteristics couldn't be inherited.--Al.
>Here's something that's been bothering me. Kara Zor-El was exposed to
>Gold-K twice. The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off
>wildly. The second time it was acting very slowly and once she was out
>of the range of the rays her powers started coming back. Want to take a
>shot at explaning the first one, since it lasted for several issues in
>of the Supergirl comic runs?
Geez! You've stumped me on this one! Any idea which Supergirl series?
Which issues? I'd love to read it/them.
Just as a btw: as far as I'm concerned, not having read the story
admittedly, any story in which the effects of Gold K aren't permanant
are non-cannon. The minute people start getting better from Gold-K, it
stops being a real threat and starts being another shade of Red
Kryptonite. (The Phantom Zone mini was an exception: I'm ok with
Quex-Ul getting his powers back from that demon/sorcerer/thing.)
Steve
al.sch...@nashville.com
> Sez who? In the real world, you're certainly correct, but in the real
> world, nothing mutates people instantly like Red K does or gives
> temporary, non-culmulative radiation poisoning like Green K. No
> Kryptonite variant acts in a "real world" fashion. Best we can hope
> for is self consistent. (Besides, what if Gold K mutates the
> sperm/eggs of Kryptonians? We know that reproductive cells can be
> damaged by radiation....)
That's a possibility, but consistently? Mutations are usually random...
> Superman #179: the second time Gold K was ever used so it's certainly
> true in the stories. Since it was only one of 3 times I can ever think
> of that Gold K was used on a Kryptonian (Martian Manhunter's exposure
> doesn't count here) in a non-Imaginary story, and since it doesn't
> contradict anything in the other two (Quex-Ul in Superman #159 and the
> Kryptonian Wrestler Guy from Superman #204) I'm not sure how you've
> come to the conclusion that this was a mistake (a bad idea, maybe).
> It's certainly not contradicted by the internal evidence.
I just think there is a better explanation of the internal evidence. That was
speculation by the Kryptonian couple (it's hard to take seriously a story in
which a piece of Kryptonite is sentient...hey, wouldn't it be funny if ALL
Kryptonite rocks were sentient?) on what their kids might be like. They
didn't HAVE any kids yet. Would it not be just simpler to assume that they
just didn't have an understanding of basic genetics? (Which meant, if the
woman did get pregnant, the kid would kick, and that would be the end of
mother and child...IF the child was super.)
>
> Besides, on page #375 of the Superman Encyclopedia, Fleisher comments
> "data concerning Gold Kryptonite is sparse beyond the fact that it can
> be shielded by lead.....and that a Kryptonian's loss of super-powers
> by Gold Kryptonite exposure would invariably be inherited by his or
> her offspring, thereby rendering the offspring incapable of acquiring
> super-powers in those environments -like that of Earth- where
> Kryptonian survivors normally acquire them."
Good point. Evidently he is basing that (as far as I can tell) on that
Kryptonian couple's statement...but it seems to be an unsupported one.
>
> > (I should know. With Marty Pasko, I co-wrote the single most
> >reviled Superman story ever, the explanation of how the glasses worked as a
> >disguise in the mid-Seventies,
> Just as an aside, I liked that story.
Thanks, Steve. Actually, the picture of Clark as the artist saw him was a
little much for me...I conceived it as more of a Don Blake/Thor difference,
that Clark would be a little handsomer than portrayed there, and certainly
not balding, just thinner and less musclebound than Supes. Sort of like Don
Blake with glasses and dark hair.--Al
>
> Steve
al.sch...@nashville.com
> >Here's something that's been bothering me. Kara Zor-El was exposed to
> >Gold-K twice. The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off
> >wildly. The second time it was acting very slowly and once she was out
> >of the range of the rays her powers started coming back. Want to take a
> >shot at explaning the first one, since it lasted for several issues in
> >of the Supergirl comic runs?
> Geez! You've stumped me on this one! Any idea which Supergirl series?
> Which issues? I'd love to read it/them.
Skekowsky's takeover of Supergirl around 1969. I'm trying to remember the
explanation of her on/off again powers...wasn't that Gold K mentioned as
being scientifically altered? (I had a fire a few years ago and lost some of
my comics, so I can't look it up directly.) It lasted through Skekowsky's
run, but was ignored for the most part afterwards...i.e., she got
better.--Al.
Bruce L. Grubb
>In article <367EAD99...@hotmail.com>,
> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bruce L. Grubb wrote:
>>
>> > Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
>> > NOT have superpowers.
>>
>> what previous evidence is there of this...? i can't recall...
>
>None. It's not true. Scientifically nor within the stories. (Acquired
>characteristics are not inherited. ENB didn't know a lot of science, but he
>knew THAT much, and would have sotpped any writer who tried to pretend that
>was the case. He did it in other cases.)
Wrong on *both* counts. Remember that Pre-Crisis Kryptonite was a
radioactive element (decayed to iron) whose radiations could only be
stopped by lead. Since alpha and beta particles can be stopped by other
materials this leaves us with gamma particles. Gamma particles are really
nasty in that they damamge DNA (including reproductive cells) and severe
enough damamge -would- be inherited but if that much DNA damamge occures
the animal doesn't live long enough to reproduce. Of course many Sci-fi
movies of the day worked on the premice that radiation induced mutations
-were- inheritable.
Furthermore I would like to point out that from a 'real world' scientific
standpoint superhero comic books have always been off in la la land and
Pre-Crisis Kryptonite was no exception:
First it is an established fact different isotobes of an element look and
chemically act identical to each other and yet the different colors of
Kryptonite are explained as them being different isotobes which is total
nonsence.
Second, radiation's damamge is *always* culmulative so the idea that
Superman could keep running into Green K and Red K and not suffer any long
turn effects is also ridiculous.
Third, in of itself radiation is not selective about what it effects. So
the pre-crisis idea that Green, Red, and Anti K were harmless to
non-Krptonians, Blue only effected Bizarros, and White only effcted plants
was more nonsence.
Any element pumping out the amount of rems that all forms of pre-crisis K
apperently did would have given any living thing nearby a real bad case of
radiation poisoning. This aspect of K was finally explored post-Crisis
with Luthor's termimal radiation poisoning due to constantly wearing a K
ring.
>Secondly, (modest cough here) I have
>a knowledge of the Silver Age Superman second only to ENB's, and there was no
>such story that _I_ ever saw...in Superman, Superboy, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen,
>and Action. If it was ever mentioned in some story I never saw (shrug) it was
>a mistake.
As I point out before this story in which Gold K's effects were revealed
to be inherited in was reprinted in the _Best of DC Blue Ribbon Digest_
"Kryptonite, its a killer" which someone else has pointed out originally
appeared in Superman #178. This consept is reiterated in the Superman
Encyclopedia on pg 375 so the canon view -was- that Gold K's effect -were-
inheritable.
Steve Parker
>I
>> Sez who? In the real world, you're certainly correct, but in the real
>> world, nothing mutates people instantly like Red K does or gives
>> temporary, non-culmulative radiation poisoning like Green K. No
>> Kryptonite variant acts in a "real world" fashion. Best we can hope
>> for is self consistent. (Besides, what if Gold K mutates the
>> sperm/eggs of Kryptonians? We know that reproductive cells can be
>> damaged by radiation....)
>
>That's a possibility, but consistently? Mutations are usually random...
Hmmmmm....good point: Pseudo-Scientific BS alert> What if Gold-K's
radiation only damages a particular chromosome pair or even a
particular gene: the one that is affected by yellow solar
radiation/light gravity? If it damaged that chromosome in every cell
in the body, even in the reproductive cells....
<snip>
>I just think there is a better explanation of the internal evidence. That was
>speculation by the Kryptonian couple (it's hard to take seriously a story in
>which a piece of Kryptonite is sentient...hey, wouldn't it be funny if ALL
>Kryptonite rocks were sentient?
Actually, they had some sort of reason for that particular piece of
kryptonite being sentient (I don't have the issue handy, if you care I
can dig it up for a more detailed explanation). Basically there was a
statuette of a famous Kryptonian scientist made of some nifty new
metal which recorded the scientists thought patterns or some such.
When Krypton blew up, the statue melted and turned into Kryptonite and
"woke up".
> on what their kids might be like. They
>didn't HAVE any kids yet. Would it not be just simpler to assume that they
>just didn't have an understanding of basic genetics? (Which meant, if the
>woman did get pregnant, the kid would kick, and that would be the end of
>mother and child...IF the child was super.)
I'm ok with this explanation if an out is needed, but I kind of like
the idea that it not only affects Superman, it'll also affect his kids
because it makes Gold K that much more dangerous. (BTW: I thought that
baby Kal wasn't super until he was "exposed" to the yellow solar
radiation (IE when Pa Kent opened the rocket's hatch). I know that
doesn't make much sense, but if that's the case, then Joenne's kid
wouldn't be a danger to her, until the kid was born (she'd better not
breast feed!!!))
>>
>> Besides, on page #375 of the Superman Encyclopedia, Fleisher comments
>> "data concerning Gold Kryptonite is sparse beyond the fact that it can
>> be shielded by lead.....and that a Kryptonian's loss of super-powers
>> by Gold Kryptonite exposure would invariably be inherited by his or
>> her offspring, thereby rendering the offspring incapable of acquiring
>> super-powers in those environments -like that of Earth- where
>> Kryptonian survivors normally acquire them."
>
>Good point. Evidently he is basing that (as far as I can tell) on that
>Kryptonian couple's statement...but it seems to be an unsupported one.
You're right that it's unsupported, except for the fact that the
Kandorian Science Council and Superman all agree that the couple
should be exiled from Kandor That, to me, gives the impression that
it's not only the couple, but Superman and the Kandorians who think
this as well. In any event, if the powers that be ever do allow
stories to be set on E1 again, and if anyone other than us!! : ), ever
cares to revisit this, it'd be easy enough to say that the Council and
Superman were wrong. (Theory's great but until you actually put it
into practice....)
Steve
Bruce L. Grubb
>In article <ameisler-221...@pignoli.med.tufts.edu>,
>Alan Meisler <amei...@opal.tufts.edu> wrote:
>>3) This only leave the relatively minor plotholes of the Phantom Zone
>>villains and Mxyzptlk. IIRC, the story you refer to was from the last
>>issue of DC Comics Presents, which came out pretty much at the same
>>time as the Moore stories, so you could easily argue the Gerber wasn't
>>up to continuity instead :)
>
>The Gerber story wouldn't fit continuity either; we know the Phantom Zone is
>still around in the 30th Century.
>
>I think there's a much bigger hole here with Mxyzptlk. From a continuity
>standpoint, it doesn't make any sense, since we've seen other 5th dimensional
>imps as well as a 30th century descendant and they all look like Mxyzptlk.
Accually except for Mxyzptlk's descendant and his stark raving mad cousin
Nzykmulk (Superman #421) the other Zriff imps don't resemble Mxyzptlk that
much. Though I will admit from what we do see of it Zriff looks like
Munchkinland in the 1939 movie version of _The Wizard of Oz_.
>But what's really wrong with it is that basically, saying that Mxyzptlk is
>really not what he appears would (if the story was in continuity) be a
>retcon. The last Superman story is supposed to _celebrate_ the past, not
>contradict it. That's wrong from a _thematic_ point of view.
I agree. IMHO Mxyzptlk's claims seem to more along the kind of rantings
his insane cousin Nzykmulk would make. It is also more in Nzykmulk's
character to do something like this then Mxyzptlk.
>(I may also ask: it was obviously silly that a fifth dimensional sorcerer
>would look like a little man in a derby hat, but it's _not_ silly that a
>fifth dimensional sorcerer has a humanoid form at all? And how in the world
>did Superman know that Myxzptlk would try to escape from the Zone projector
>the way he did, rather than by some other method that would combined with
>Phantom Zone projection in a way that wouldn't kill him?)
Wasn't it established that the Phantom Zone 'bordered' Bgzil which would
imply that it was at best 4th dimensional? If so why would any 5th
dimensional being be afraid of being sent to the 4th dimension?
Alan Meisler
> In article <367EAD99...@hotmail.com>,
> eternally <eter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bruce L. Grubb wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Second Gold K's effects are inheritable which means Lois & "Clark" son can
> > > NOT have superpowers.
> >
> > what previous evidence is there of this...? i can't recall...
>
>
> None. It's not true. Scientifically nor within the stories. (Acquired
> characteristics are not inherited. ENB didn't know a lot of science, but he
> knew THAT much, and would have sotpped any writer who tried to pretend that
> was the case. He did it in other cases.)
This really depends on how the characteristics were acquired. If
I infect every cell in your body with a gene that incorporates itself
into that cell's genome and gives you a new ability (which is the
basis of gene therapy) then as long as the gene infects your sperm/egg
cells, the attribute would be passed on to new generations.
Until recently, gold-K's effects were never described beyond "he lost
his powers". In the recent Generations story by Byrne, Superman is
able to see that another super-character has been exposed to gold-K
because his atomic structure has been rearranged to make him normal.
(I'm being vague as to which character so as not to spoil) I would
say an "atomic rearrangement" could easily be passed on to future
generations. (And although this is an Elseworlds story, it is very
consistent with pre-Crisis DC.)
--Alan
Steve Parker
wrote:
>Third, in of itself radiation is not selective about what it effects. So
>the pre-crisis idea that Green, Red, and Anti K were harmless to
>non-Krptonians, Blue only effected Bizarros, and White only effcted plants
>was more nonsence.
>Any element pumping out the amount of rems that all forms of pre-crisis K
>apperently did would have given any living thing nearby a real bad case of
>radiation poisoning. This aspect of K was finally explored post-Crisis
>with Luthor's termimal radiation poisoning due to constantly wearing a K
Just as an aside, someone (I swear it was Larry Niven, but I can't
figure out where: I don't think it's _Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex_)
suggested that Superman gets his powers from neutrinos. IIRC, Yellow
Stars like ours pump out lots more neutrinos than old, red stars.
Superman's tissue is dense enough to absorb the neutrinos and somehow
gains most of his powers from them. The author suggests that
Kryptonite pumps out some kind of particle similar to neutrinos that
simply pass harmlessly through humans (like neutrinos do), but somehow
prevent Kryptonians from "processing" neutrinos.
Steve
Bruce L. Grubb
wrote:
This idea has several flaws:
First, while it explains the effects of Green K on superpowered
Kryptonians it falls flat when dealing with the other forms of K, White
and X in particular. White kills -any- plant regardless of where which
doen't jive with the neutrino idea. X is a real headache in that not only
does it weaken superpowered Kryponians but it give humans superpowers.
Red also don't really fit into this idea because its effects only last
24-hour regardless of continued contact or not.
Second, not all red stars are old, some are very young. These are the
stars that are born as red giants and due to their size they have
tempature that rival blue stars. This also means that their consuption of
their nuclear fuel is high then our yeellow sun which reulst in high
energy (and one would presume neutrino output)
Finally, there have been several times (Action #500 for example) in which
Superman has been put under a red sun lamp which has resulted in his
powers being neutralized. If Superman's powers came from the yellow sun's
neutrinos then a red sun lamp shouldn't effect him in the least.
Bruce L. Grubb
spar...@mindspring.com wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:57:20 -0700, bgr...@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb)
>wrote:
>> X is a real headache in that not only
>>does it weaken superpowered Kryponians but it give humans superpowers.
>Just an aside that has nothing to do with the main thrust of your
>argument: I'm pretty certain that X doesn't weaken Kryptonians, and as
>far as we know only gives cats superpowers (did we *ever* see it used
>on a human?)
Both effects of X Kryptonite were shown in a Supergirl story when she was
wearing her second costume. In the story a young girl in a coma comes
into contact with X-K and wakes up believing that she is Supergirl and
goes around in Supergirl's original costume. Kara is in her Linda
identity when the young girl flies through a wall. Supergirl counfronts
the girl and calms her down before she cause any more problems.
At the end of the story Supergirl reveals that when the small piece of X-K
was shown to her it weakened her. To prevent any missuse of the X-K
Supergirl seals it up into a lead "S" locket that she gives the girl.
Steve Parker
wrote:
> X is a real headache in that not only
>does it weaken superpowered Kryponians but it give humans superpowers.
Just an aside that has nothing to do with the main thrust of your
argument: I'm pretty certain that X doesn't weaken Kryptonians, and as
far as we know only gives cats superpowers (did we *ever* see it used
on a human?)
<snip>
>Finally, there have been several times (Action #500 for example) in which
>Superman has been put under a red sun lamp which has resulted in his
>powers being neutralized. If Superman's powers came from the yellow sun's
>neutrinos then a red sun lamp shouldn't effect him in the least.
Ack! The sound you're hearing is this line of debate collapsing. Good
point!
Steve
Spooon
(Mikel Midnight) wrote:
>In article <367f8f9...@news.mindspring.com>, spar...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> Anyway, in every imaginary story but one that I can think of
>> where Superman and LL had kids, the kids ended up with powers.
>
>Yes, although not in predictable ways. Superman Jr. had roughly half the
>strength of his father. Superman's and Lois's daughter from the _Superman
>Family_ special was powerless until puberty, when her abilities slowly
>started to develop. And in one other story the two had a pair of male
>twins, one with the full set of powers and one with no powers.
>
And in Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" Kal-El
Exposes himself to Gold K and later has a son. The infant son is
shown to be able to turn coal in diamonds. I would think this is
evidence that even noin-powered gold K effected kryptonians can give
birth to super-powered kids -- even when the genes are diluted by a
human parent.
And that's *word* from the Spooonser
RE:SPOOONses are always Welcome
Jim "Spooon" Henry
Hen...@uakron.edu
Spo...@juno.com
"It's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife..."
-- Alanis Morrisette
"That's not ironic, that's a freaking nightmare..."
-- Spooon's so-called friend
Steve Parker
wrote:
>In article <36830cd7...@news.mindspring.com>,
>spar...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:57:20 -0700, bgr...@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb)
>>wrote:
>>> X is a real headache in that not only
>>>does it weaken superpowered Kryponians but it give humans superpowers.
>>Just an aside that has nothing to do with the main thrust of your
>>argument: I'm pretty certain that X doesn't weaken Kryptonians, and as
>>far as we know only gives cats superpowers (did we *ever* see it used
>>on a human?)
>
>Both effects of X Kryptonite were shown in a Supergirl story when she was
>wearing her second costume. In the story a young girl in a coma comes
>into contact with X-K and wakes up believing that she is Supergirl and
>goes around in Supergirl's original costume. Kara is in her Linda
>identity when the young girl flies through a wall. Supergirl counfronts
>the girl and calms her down before she cause any more problems.
>
>At the end of the story Supergirl reveals that when the small piece of X-K
>was shown to her it weakened her. To prevent any missuse of the X-K
>Supergirl seals it up into a lead "S" locket that she gives the girl.
Cool! Thanks for the info. Any idea which series (I don't recall her
second costume as such...) it was? From your description of the story,
I'm guessing that it would have been in her Adventure Comics run
(following the Action series) or in her first solo series in the early
'70s. I'd love to track these issues down. T
Thanks!
Steve
Bruce L. Grubb
I think I miswrote when I said "second costume". Here is a better
explination of what I accual ment from a very early post:
<In the story a young girl comes out of a coma and somehow finds some X-K
and thinks that _she_ is Supergirl. This girl dresses like Supergirl when
she was a member of the Legion (the "S" on the chest not to the side and
with short hair rather then the long flowing hair Supergirl then had) and
causes no end of problems for the real Supergirl.
The basic plot of someone trying to take over Supergirl's life was reused
in "Who stole Supergirl's life?". Only this time it is was the algamation
of six 6" clone doing the replacement (hey I don't _write_ them I just
report them.) Again the cover has the present Supergirl (with the
male Krytonian headband) meeting with a Supergirl dressed as she was in the
past (in the "S" on the side costume).>
A picture of what I call the "second" costume ]I didn't know about the
high boots costume that showed up in Adventure, blech] is on the cover of
The Daring New Adventures of Supergirl" #1 which can be found at
<http://www.interwebcr.com/supergirl/pages/origin2.htm>
I am not sure if the girl is wearing the 'in training' costume (skirt is
blue) or the 'public' costume (skirt is red). Hope this helps.
Danny Sichel
> Jor-El and Lara that Superboy found and even Black Zero (the man who
> "really" blew up Krypton).
Buh?
"Black Zero?"
Wasn't that the Byrne-era Kryptonian clone-rights terrorist
organization?
Mark Evans
Distribution:
Danny Sichel (eds...@umoncton.ca) wrote:
: > I'm perfectly happy to forget about Mopee, the irradiated and comatose
: Buh?
: "Black Zero?"
Nope. He was an agent of, IIRC, the "Pirate Empire" with a rather broad
charter to prevent various races from becoming a problem by destroying
them. He happened onto Krypton when Jor-EL was talking about impending
doom, did his own checking and found that Jor-El was almost right. A bomb
or two dropped into Krypton's core made sure. He eventually fought Supes
on Earth, pre-Crisis, and was destroyed by Jax-Ur, one fo the Phantom Zone
baddies who was granted a short-lived release by Superman. The loose
threads (like who else the Pirate Empire might have had out there) were
never picked up in future stories.
--
Mark Evans
Established in 1951.
Danny Sichel
> and Action. If it was ever mentioned in some story I never saw (shrug) it was
> a mistake. (I should know. With Marty Pasko, I co-wrote the single most
> reviled Superman story ever, the explanation of how the glasses worked as a
> disguise in the mid-Seventies,
Well, hey, that may have been the most reviled back THEN, but I'm sure
that there've been plenty of other (un)worthy candidates in the
intervening twenty-plus years.
Suggestions?
Jim Smith
Mark Evans wrote:
> Danny Sichel (eds...@umoncton.ca) wrote:
> : "Black Zero?"
>
> : Wasn't that the Byrne-era Kryptonian clone-rights terrorist
> : organization?
> Nope. He was an agent of, IIRC, the "Pirate Empire" with a rather broad
> charter to prevent various races from becoming a problem by destroying
> them.
I'm sure that's true, but Danny's right as well. In modern Supes
continuity, Black Zero was a band of extremist clone-rights advocates
who nuked Kandor (the Krytponian city, not the bottle city of the same
name that Scorn comes from), ending the Fifth Age of Krypton and
starting a war that lasted a thousand years. The name's obviously a
reference to the pre-Crisis Black Zero, which further damages my faith
in the modern Super-writers to just come up with their own names for
stuff.
Jim Smith
Dh4598
>
>
>
>>Ok, the Kingdom has gotten me interesten in DC history. I understand
>>that Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" showed the
>>Earth-1 Superman's happy ending. Can anyone re-cap the story-line for
>>me?
>>
>
>The story begins in the future (10 years after Superman vanished, I think)
>with
>a Daily Planet reporter coming to interview Lois Lane. Lois is now a married
>woman and long since left reporting.
>
>Lois tells the young reporter about the final days of Superman. A series of
>attacks by Superman foes who are darker than before.
>
>Bizarro goes on a rampage since in order to be Superman's opposite he decides
>to kill (the opposite of Superman's vow to never kill) and ends by killing
>himself (a dead Bizarro being the opposite of a living Superman).
>
>The Prankster and the Toyman decide to seek out Superman's identity by
>capturing and torturing Superman's friends until they find one who knows the
>secret. They start with Pete Ross who reveals the secret before he dies.
>Prankster and Toyman then set up Clark to expose the fact he is Superman.
>
>Shortly thereafter Metallo leads an army of cyborgs in an attack on the Daily
>Planet. The Planet Globe is destroyed in the process. This attack also
>prompts Superman to take his supporting cast (Lois, Jimmy, Lana and the
>Whites)
>into hiding for their own safety.
>
>They go to the Fortress where Krypto joins them. The Fortress is soon
>besiged
>by an army of Superman foes (Kryptonite Man, The three original members of
>the
>Legion of Super-Villians). The assault is led by the robotic head of
>Brainiac
>who is controlling the body of Lex Luthor. Brainiac has used his force
>shield
>to seal out the JLA types from coming to Superman's aid.
>
>In the course of battle Jimmy becomes Elastic Lad again and Lana uses a way
>to
>gain Kryptonian-like powers from a 1960's story. Lana with her new powers
>overhears Superman confess to Perry White that he always loved Lois but kept
>his distance in part for fear of hurting Lana's feelings. Lana then joins
>Jimmy in a suicidal run on Brainiac's force-field generator. They actually
>manage to destroy the generator before being killed, but for some reason the
>field remains intact
>
>This is followed by the death of Krypto (who kills the Kryptonite Man in the
>process) and a visit by the 1960's Legion including Supergirl. They have
>come
>back to give Superman a gift to commemorate a historic event (which Superman
>deduces is his own death).
>
>At this point Brainiac is defeated and Superman realizes who is behind the
>whiole series of events. The one major foe who has yet to make an
>appearance-
>Mxyzptlk. It seems that Mxy outgrew his impish ways and is now pure evil.
>Seeing no other way out (the force field is still up sustained by magic)-
>Superman kills Mxy to protect the world.
>
>Having taken a life Superman wanders into a room full of krytonite. He
>exposes
>himself to Gold K and off into the Arctic never to be seen again.
>
>The ending returns us to Lois and the reporter. Lois' husband comes in with
>their son (who is the spitting image of Superbaby down to the playsuit). As
>the reporter leaves we see Lois' son spill a coal bin and while playing with
>the caol he crushes a piece into a diamond. The last panel is Lois' husband
>closing the door and giving a famous wink to us in the audience.
>
>It is a happy ending for Lois & "Clark", I guess, but not my idea of a happy
>ending for Superman. He is now powerless and on his 3rd or 4th identity
>(Kal-El, Clark Kent, Superman,...). His oldest friends are dead (Lana,
>Jimmy,
>Pete Ross, and Krypto). Not exactly an upbeat tale.
Where did this story appear?
"I don't want to be a cutie. I want to be a hot, sexy bitch!"-Emma Bunton
Steve Parker
wrote:
>> I'm perfectly happy to forget about Mopee, the irradiated and comatose
>> Jor-El and Lara that Superboy found and even Black Zero (the man who
>> "really" blew up Krypton).
>
>Buh?
>
>"Black Zero?"
>
>Wasn't that the Byrne-era Kryptonian clone-rights terrorist
>organization?
He "borrowed" the name.
Superman #205. An alien space terrorist guy with a big, butt-shaped
head goes to Krypton to destroy it (Krypton might someday be a threat
to the "space-pirate empire" to which Black Zero belongs. BZ sneaks
into a Science Council meeting (great security, guys!) and overhears
Jor-El's famous "Krypton's gonna blow!" rant. Black Zero, no fool,
goes to check the matter out. He finds out that the Science Council
was right, Jor El is an alarmist crackpot. "Incredible!" B Z thinks
"Jor El's calculations were in error! The nuclear chain reaction is
dying down by itself!. Krypton will live on unless I rekindle the
atomic fires below!" and he drills a hole to the center of the planet
and blows it up. Jax-Ur is freed from the PZone to help Superman
capture Black Zero. To do so, Jax Ur exposes himself to Red K and gets
turned into a medusa. He looks at Black Zero and turns him to stone.
Superman then allows Jax Ur to shatter the statue, permitting Jax Ur
to murder Black Zero. Uh-huh.
As far as I'm concerned, since this isn't an imaginary story (they
were always explicit about Imaginary Stories "On a day that may or may
not ever happen..."), it took place on Earth B. I'd place it as the
second worst (in terms of damaging the legend) Superman story of the
Silver Age.
The worst of course, (IMHO) would be the Superboy story where
Superboy finds out that Whoops! Jor-El had forgotten that he had
another rocket, but it didn't have warp drive. He and Lara get in and
go into suspended animation. Superboy finds the ship that they're in
and finds that they're alive! Unfortunately, they're also dying of
Kryptonite poisoning, the rocket having been transformed into Green K.
But they're alive, in suspended animation and suffering/dying of
K-Poisoning for all eternally. Blech. Another one for the Earth-B bin.
By the standards of these two, the story about the super-hypnosis
super-glasses is high art (I still liked it!)
Steve
VARTOX
I may never forgive Cary Bates for that misbegotten tale of Supergirl's secret
marriage following her death in Crisis.
The only Superman story I possibly hate more didn't appear in a comic, that
being the New Krypton arc of Lois & Clark. The levels of arbitrary elements,
if not outright disrespect to the featured characters are quite similar, and
certainly maddening.
The glasses story isn't even close in my book.
Vartox
--------------------------------------------------------------
http://members.aol.com/vartox/jwgroth.html\
All are invited to view my holiday card at
http://members.aol.com/vartoxmas/index.html
Gary St. Lawrence -- The Saint
>and Action. If it was ever mentioned in some story I never saw (shrug) it was
>a mistake. (I should know. With Marty Pasko, I co-wrote the single most
>reviled Superman story ever, the explanation of how the glasses worked as a
>disguise in the mid-Seventies,
Really, Al? You co-wrote the legendary "super-hypnosis is working at low
levels all the time and Clark doesn't even know it, so he appears older and more
frail to people" story? Wow. I'd like to shake your handl.
I don't know of a single other story (with the possible exception of the
Adventure Comics death of the Earth 2 Batman story) that has left a more
detailed and lasting impression on me from the mid 1970s.
You might, semi-seriously, refer to that story as reviled. But I consider
it to be a literal classic of DC Comics' cross-crisis continuity. Few comic book
stories, particularly Superman, have ever been more memorable.
I salute you, sir.
Saint.
al.sch...@nashville.com
> Hmmmmm....good point: Pseudo-Scientific BS alert> What if Gold-K's
> radiation only damages a particular chromosome pair or even a
> particular gene: the one that is affected by yellow solar
> radiation/light gravity? If it damaged that chromosome in every cell
> in the body, even in the reproductive cells....
> <snip>
Could be. Only someone who unravelled Kryptonian DNA could say for sure...
>
> Actually, they had some sort of reason for that particular piece of
> kryptonite being sentient (I don't have the issue handy, if you care I
> can dig it up for a more detailed explanation). Basically there was a
> statuette of a famous Kryptonian scientist made of some nifty new
> metal which recorded the scientists thought patterns or some such.
> When Krypton blew up, the statue melted and turned into Kryptonite and
> "woke up".
Good to know. I missed the first installment of the "Tales of kryptonite".
(BTW, I thought the best backup feature Sueprman ever had was the "World of
Krypton: ones...)
> I'm ok with this explanation if an out is needed, but I kind of like
> the idea that it not only affects Superman, it'll also affect his kids
> because it makes Gold K that much more dangerous. (BTW: I thought that
> baby Kal wasn't super until he was "exposed" to the yellow solar
> radiation (IE when Pa Kent opened the rocket's hatch). I know that
> doesn't make much sense, but if that's the case, then Joenne's kid
> wouldn't be a danger to her, until the kid was born (she'd better not
> breast feed!!!))
Hmmm. The ultra solar radiation (sounded more like a type of neutrino given
off by the sun) was supposed to go right throught he earth, so surely it
would go through her...
> You're right that it's unsupported, except for the fact that the
> Kandorian Science Council and Superman all agree that the couple
> should be exiled from Kandor That, to me, gives the impression that
> it's not only the couple, but Superman and the Kandorians who think
> this as well. In any event, if the powers that be ever do allow
> stories to be set on E1 again, and if anyone other than us!! : ), ever
> cares to revisit this, it'd be easy enough to say that the Council and
> Superman were wrong. (Theory's great but until you actually put it
> into practice....)
Or it might be, without superpowers, they couldn't live in Kandor, since they
couldn't stand up in Kryptonian gravity...but then, Sylvia DeWitt did fine
with gravity boots...--Al.
al.sch...@nashville.com
> Really, Al? You co-wrote the legendary "super-hypnosis is working at low
> levels all the time and Clark doesn't even know it, so he appears older and
more
> frail to people" story? Wow. I'd like to shake your handl.
> I don't know of a single other story (with the possible exception of the
> Adventure Comics death of the Earth 2 Batman story) that has left a more
> detailed and lasting impression on me from the mid 1970s.
> You might, semi-seriously, refer to that story as reviled. But I
consider
> it to be a literal classic of DC Comics' cross-crisis continuity. Few comic
book
> stories, particularly Superman, have ever been more memorable.
> I salute you, sir.
Thanks! I still like the basic idea, but it operating across TV and all I
suppose was a little much...but if I had said there was a miniature Kruptonian
device that gave everyone an illusion of how Clark looked, they would have
accepted it immediately. Go figure.--Al.
>
> Saint.
al.sch...@nashville.com
> As I point out before this story in which Gold K's effects were revealed
> to be inherited in was reprinted in the _Best of DC Blue Ribbon Digest_
> "Kryptonite, its a killer" which someone else has pointed out originally
> appeared in Superman #178. This consept is reiterated in the Superman
> Encyclopedia on pg 375 so the canon view -was- that Gold K's effect -were-
> inheritable.
All good points about the radiation, but I suspect that krytonite radiation
was NOT gamma radiation, but something much more fierce. An analogy: a laser
will go right through a glass window and burn through a piece of wood or
steel. I suspect that non-invulnerable items did not "stop" k-radiation, that
it went through it like neutrinoes do normal matter. It's when it hits
something "invulnerable" like Superman's body, that it splits up into
secondary particles, which were much more damaging than the original. As for
the "canon"...the only reference to gold K doing that is that story alone,
Fleischer was referencing off THAT, unless you know of another story. But
that all depends on whether the couple were justified in their fears.
Although Superman agreed to the exile, I see no indication in the story in my
hasting rereading of it that the Kandorian Science Council were consulted on
that. They probably would have laughed at the notion.--Al.
Rod Towey
>I may never forgive Cary Bates for that misbegotten tale of Supergirl's secret
>marriage following her death in Crisis.
I don't remember this, synopsis please?
Later
RJT
Danny Sichel
It's a ref. to the Code-shattering _Tales of Necrophilia_ one-shot
(guest-starring Suicide Squid).
Kryptonkid
<36845F35...@wworld.com>...
>I'm sure that's true, but Danny's right as well. In modern Supes
>continuity, Black Zero was a band of extremist clone-rights advocates
>who nuked Kandor (the Krytponian city, not the bottle city of the same
>name that Scorn comes from), ending the Fifth Age of Krypton and
>starting a war that lasted a thousand years. The name's obviously a
>reference to the pre-Crisis Black Zero, which further damages my faith
>in the modern Super-writers to just come up with their own names for
>stuff.
I like it when they name post-Crisis things after something pre-Crisis. And
as I recall, the post-Crisis Black Zero group's bomb was what later
destroyed Krypton as a side effect. So, it made sense to name them Black
Zero. Very good thinking on Mr. Byrne's part.
VARTOX
>>I may never forgive Cary Bates for that misbegotten tale of Supergirl's
>secret
>>marriage following her death in Crisis.
>
>I don't remember this, synopsis please?
Typical tripe along the lines of (exact details are a bit fuzzy here, but I
refuse to look at that issue again, even for reference purposes):
Superman is mourning Supergirl in the Fortress. Some super-powered alien
breaks in to retrieve some item among Supergirl's belongings. A fight breaks
out. A recorded message from Supergirl reveals the intruder to be her husband
- a superhero on his own world, whom she married during a bout of amnesia.
Superman feels bad that he started the fight. Some menace forces the heroes to
work together. Yadda yadda yadda.
Infuriatingly trite, if not disrespectful in following possibly the best
Supergirl appearance ever with one of the worst.
If I'm not confusing two different stories, it got worse than that. Rokyn, the
Brigadoon-like planet to which the Kandorians resettled, had been out of phase
with our dimension all through Crisis. Zor-El and Allura were completely
clueless about Kara's fate until Superman walked through their door with her
body wrapped in her cape.
Granted, the Silver Age Superman wasn't always known for his tact, so I'm not
blasting the above page-and-a-half or so on that basis. It just seems that a
more fitting epilogue to Supergirl's life would have focused on her parents
(the Els _and_ the Danvers, who went totally without notice, IIRC) and how they
dealt with their loss.
Of course, that would've taken more thought than a cliched amnesiac wedding
revelation. Hmmph.
Isaac
>One thing to remember is that pre-Crisis, *everything* from Krypton became
>super. That's why Superman had an indestructible costume, for instance. (Of
>course, there are certain logical holes in this bit of silver-age physics--
>why do capes become super-stretchable while metals become super-tough, but
>let's put that aside for now.)
>
>This means that super-powers have nothing to do with the genes at all. Gold
>Kryptonite converts super-atoms to non-super-atoms, and it would follow that
>the children of people affected by Gold Kryptonite won't have powers.
On the other hand...the atoms of Kryptonians were decidedly non super while on
Krypton and yet could still produce beings with the potential for becoming
super on earth. Earthlings who ended up in Kandor seem to find that materials
had ordinary strength. The question is really whether genes composed of
non-super atoms can still direct the production of atoms with at least the
potential for becoming super. It seems that at least sometimes they can.
I don't see how it logically follows from the facts you've given that
Gold-K exposed Kryptonians couldn't have super offspring.
I really don't see how anybody could know for sure. Gold K was supposed
to be extremely rare even compared to the supposedly rare green and
red versions. It didn't exist at all before Krypton exploded, and it
seems extremely unlikely that anyone in Kandor could have ever encountered
any to experiment with.
Isaac
Isaac
wrote:
>
>Certainly the post-Crisis Superman
>didn't believe that the process could never be reversed. (Else he wouldn't
>have felt the need to green-K the Pocket Universe heroes.)
>
Pocket Universe Heroes!?
Post crisis Superman would have no basis for any opinion on whether the
process could be reversed. As far as he knew, all the Pocket Universe
Kryptonians needed to do was get themselves near a blue sun or something
and their powers would return.
If I remember correctly, it was the bad guys who were pretty sure they
could get their powers back.
Isaac
Isaac
>Hmmmmm....good point: Pseudo-Scientific BS alert> What if Gold-K's
>radiation only damages a particular chromosome pair or even a
>particular gene: the one that is affected by yellow solar
>radiation/light gravity? If it damaged that chromosome in every cell
>in the body, even in the reproductive cells....
You mean mutates it in to produce exactly the same limitation that the
parent has? Presumably the gene that gives the solar processing trait to
the off spring is not also responsible actually processing sunlight in
the parent. I could understand Gold-K (or even Green-K for that matter)
damaging the genes and with the result that the offspring would be mutated
or limited, but how likely is it that the mutation produce exactly the
same effect that the exposure caused to the parent? Doesn't sound
like real world genetics to me.
Isaac
Isaac
>
>Wrong on *both* counts. Remember that Pre-Crisis Kryptonite was a
>radioactive element (decayed to iron) whose radiations could only be
I know there was an accident that transmuted all of the green-K on earth
to iron, but when was it established that Green-K actually decayed to iron.
If Green-K actually did decay to iron that would give it a place on the
periodic table not too far above where iron is. That part of the
periodic table is rather full of known quantities.
Isaac
al.sch...@nashville.com
> If I'm not confusing two different stories, it got worse than that. Rokyn,
the
> Brigadoon-like planet to which the Kandorians resettled, had been out of phase
> with our dimension all through Crisis. Zor-El and Allura were completely
> clueless about Kara's fate until Superman walked through their door with her
> body wrapped in her cape.
>
> Granted, the Silver Age Superman wasn't always known for his tact, so I'm not
> blasting the above page-and-a-half or so on that basis. It just seems that a
> more fitting epilogue to Supergirl's life would have focused on her parents
> (the Els _and_ the Danvers, who went totally without notice, IIRC) and how
they
> dealt with their loss.
>
> Of course, that would've taken more thought than a cliched amnesiac wedding
> revelation. Hmmph.
>
> Vartox
Two different stories. The "Supergirl's Secret Marriage" was by Cary Bates,
and brought no developement to the character. except a negative one, and is
justly despised. The one where Superman brought Kara's corpse to Zor-El was
by Elliott S. Maggin, and also involved Sylvia Dewitt, who was getting around
someone hypnotizing the Kryptonians around her because she was an earthling
married to a Kryptonian. I actually thought the second one was halfway
decent...or at least showing what COULD have been done with Supergirl's
death, bringing some depth to Superman (as Bucky's death brought to Captain
America)--and if Byrne hadn't rewritten history, I'm sure we would have
eventually seen the Danvers' sorrow, also.--Al.
VARTOX
Thanks for the correction. I'd completely forgotten about the hypnosis story.
Regardless, I thought that aspect of the story was completely unnecessary and
quite disappointing, especially given that Maggin penned it. As for time
running out for telling the story of the Danvers' loss, I can't buy that. The
space available in either issue was sufficient for such a tale, were the
superheroics abandoned, a la the Titans' "A Day in the Life".
Even so, I will give the ending its due. The off-panel screams of Zor-El and
Allura were nearly audible in their gut-wrenching horror. The only part of the
story worth seeing print.
Not enough to respectfully end her legacy, though. (IMHO)
Steve Parker
wrote:
True, but we're dealing with a world where you can have 24-48 hour
mutations that wear off with no residual damage either (Red-K) so
we're already far away from real world genetics. For me, as long as
it's consistant....
Steve
Disruptor
pre-Crisis kryptonite might be radiating magical rays. At to low a
level to affect humans, it would explain kryptonite.
Alan Meisler
irc...@latveria.castledoom.org (Isaac) wrote:
> On 23 Dec 1998 22:13:48 -0500, Ken Arromdee <arro...@www.inetnow.net> wrote:
> >One thing to remember is that pre-Crisis, *everything* from Krypton became
> >super. That's why Superman had an indestructible costume, for instance. (Of
> >course, there are certain logical holes in this bit of silver-age physics--
> >why do capes become super-stretchable while metals become super-tough, but
> >let's put that aside for now.)
> >
Nah, lets not :) I think the cape is super-stretchable and the metal is
not for the same reason that Earth fabrics are stretchable and Earth metals
are hard. Differnt molecular structures. Superman's cape is a weave made
from super-threads from Superbaby's super-blankets. (Which were cut by
Clark's heat vision.) Threads are generally made from superhelical proteins
(or other polymers). Helices are springlike, and have an intrinsic elasticity
to them. When non-super, if pulled too much, the threads snap. But super
threads don't snap (at least nowhere near that easily), so Superman can
pull on them (and stretch them) to a much larger degree than normal threads.
(Likewise, he should be able to do this to some degree with his own hair :)
Metals, on the other hand, are simpler structures that do not have any
innate stretchability. So when they get super, they just don't break.
(And thus are super-strong.)
>
> >This means that super-powers have nothing to do with the genes at all. Gold
> >Kryptonite converts super-atoms to non-super-atoms, and it would follow that
> >the children of people affected by Gold Kryptonite won't have powers.
>
> On the other hand...the atoms of Kryptonians were decidedly non super
while on
> Krypton and yet could still produce beings with the potential for becoming
> super on earth. Earthlings who ended up in Kandor seem to find that materials
> had ordinary strength. The question is really whether genes composed of
> non-super atoms can still direct the production of atoms with at least the
> potential for becoming super. It seems that at least sometimes they can.
>
But remember, both Krypton and Kandor are under red suns (or a reasonable
substitute.) One quality of "super atoms" is that they are Super
under a yellow sun, but not a red one. Apparently, "non-super atoms"
are not affected by red sun radiation.
> I don't see how it logically follows from the facts you've given that
> Gold-K exposed Kryptonians couldn't have super offspring.
If what makes Kryptonians "super" is their "super atomic structure" (or
more likely, super "molecular" structure) and not the genes involved,
then if gold-K does infact alter the molecular structure into a non-
powered version, then an affected individual would likely not be able
to pass on the powers. If it's passed on due to genetics (and the
affect of gold-K is to block access to the power), then the powers would
still be passed on.
>
> I really don't see how anybody could know for sure. Gold K was supposed
> to be extremely rare even compared to the supposedly rare green and
> red versions. It didn't exist at all before Krypton exploded, and it
> seems extremely unlikely that anyone in Kandor could have ever encountered
> any to experiment with.
>
Excellent point. Never considered that bit. Though I wouldn't be surprised
if Superman sent down some samples. (Kryptonite doesn't affect non-powered
Kryptonians. Does that mean it won't affect Kandorians while they're still
in Kandor? Maybe red sun radiation affects kryptonite?)
> Isaac
--Alan
Steve Parker
Meisler) wrote:
> Does that mean it won't affect Kandorians while they're still
>in Kandor? Maybe red sun radiation affects kryptonite?)
It does. None of the 5 major varieties have any effect on Kryptonians
in a Krypton-like environment. The only one we know for sure *does* is
Anti-Kryptonite (the stuff that killed Argo City). We *know* that if
you take Green or Red-K into Kandor, they act like glowing rocks.
Pretty, but don't do anything. We can infer that Gold, White, and Blue
act the same way. Jewel? Who knows? The minor varities? Who cares? ; )
Steve
Disruptor
>
> On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:10:36 -0500, Disruptor <math...@gte.net> wrote:
> >With the incredible weakness that Kryptonians have to magic, the
> >pre-Crisis kryptonite might be radiating magical rays. At to low a
> >level to affect humans, it would explain kryptonite.
>
> phenomena become possible and all argument ends. Besides
> pre-Crisis, Superman's only two weaknesses were stated to be
> kryptonite and magic; you're supposed to use scientific
> explanations for kryptonite.
>
> Isaac
How? Under red sunlight, kryptonite only glows and has no other
powers. White-K? Fine, it destroys cloyrphill(sp?) that is mixed with
celluose. Jewel-K is nothing more than a psi-booster.
Isaac
Steve Parker
wrote:
Actually, there was a theory I had for years: Master Myxztplk created
the cosmic cloud that the Green-K swarm passed through. That's why
Superman never ended up with a mutation like "Superman becomes a
rapidly dispersing cloud of helium atoms" or "all Superman's internal
organs are now on the outside". Myxztplk wouldn't have chosen effects
like that because they wouldn't have been sporting or fun.
The problem with this theory is that *ALL* effects of Myxztplk's magic
disappear when he leaves so Red-K should revert back to normal (or at
least the cloud should have disappeared and we saw it affect a second
swarm years later).
Steve
Bruce L. Grubb
irc...@latveria.castledoom.org (Isaac) wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 06:37:40 -0700, Bruce L. Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>>Wrong on *both* counts. Remember that Pre-Crisis Kryptonite was a
>>radioactive element (decayed to iron) whose radiations could only be
>
>I know there was an accident that transmuted all of the green-K on earth
>to iron, but when was it established that Green-K actually decayed to iron.
I don't know but I beleive that this idea was restated in the 1984-5 Who's Who.
>If Green-K actually did decay to iron that would give it a place on the
>periodic table not too far above where iron is. That part of the
>periodic table is rather full of known quantities.
This is not a problem if one views Kryptonite as a 'stable' radioactive
Trans-uranium element. As K decays it eventually reaches one of the
unstable Trans-uranium elements which tend to quite literally 'fall apart'
(they split into two elements) with iron being the largest (amountwise)
stable element.
al.sch...@nashville.com
> How? Under red sunlight, kryptonite only glows and has no other
> powers.
Well...actually, it was shown to be much more potent than uranium. Remember
Metallo. He would use up one pellet of uranium a day (this is the original
Metallo) but Kryptonite would power him for LIFE. So I think the "magic"
explanation for Kruyptonite must be ruled out. Surely the doctor who first
constructed the Metallo host-body couldn't draw on magic. (For that matter,
the chain-reaction that turned all K on Earth to iron started while people
were trying to make a kryptonite generator.)--Al.
PS. What is the one non-Kryptonian that could have been destroyed by a form of
kryptonite? Swamp Thing. He would be vulnerable to White K.
Jamie Rosen
(al.sch...@nashville.com) writes:
>> How? Under red sunlight, kryptonite only glows and has no other
>> powers.
>
> Well...actually, it was shown to be much more potent than uranium. Remember
> Metallo. He would use up one pellet of uranium a day (this is the original
> Metallo) but Kryptonite would power him for LIFE. So I think the "magic"
> explanation for Kruyptonite must be ruled out. Surely the doctor who first
> constructed the Metallo host-body couldn't draw on magic. (For that matter,
> the chain-reaction that turned all K on Earth to iron started while people
> were trying to make a kryptonite generator.)--Al.
>
> PS. What is the one non-Kryptonian that could have been destroyed by a form of
> kryptonite? Swamp Thing. He would be vulnerable to White K.
Wouldn't the Floronic Man be vulnerable to it? And maybe Solomon Grundy,
even? They're all plant-based creatures.
--
Jamie Rosen - author, gamer, electronic musician, and general nice person
JoJo the Indian Circus Boy Fan Club Member #00002!
"It's not the belt that gives the wrestler credibility, it's the wrestler
that gives the belt credibility." - Chris Benoit
al.sch...@nashville.com
> > PS. What is the one non-Kryptonian that could have been destroyed by a form
of
> > kryptonite? Swamp Thing. He would be vulnerable to White K.
>
> Wouldn't the Floronic Man be vulnerable to it? And maybe Solomon Grundy,
> even? They're all plant-based creatures.
True. Poison Ivy would probably view White K as public enemy number
one...--Al.
Bruce_...@yahoo.com
dh4...@aol.comGladKing (Dh4598) wrote:
<snippage>
> Where did this story appear?
>
> "I don't want to be a cutie. I want to be a hot, sexy bitch!"-Emma Bunton
>
Well, it appeared as a two parter, crossing over from Superman to Action#586
IIRC. The reason? Last two issues of the original series, pre-Byrne.
I liked what they did at the beginning. Julius Schwartz, a good personal
friend, Wrote as the then Editor: The following is an imaginary story. Aren't
they all?
I'm paraphrasing, as I read this twelve years ago....
Mike, name dropper extraordnaire...
"I'm Batman" -- Mike Shields
P.S. Cool sig, btw.
Alan Meisler
dq...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jamie Rosen) wrote:
> (al.sch...@nashville.com) writes:
> >> How? Under red sunlight, kryptonite only glows and has no other
> >> powers.
> >
> > Well...actually, it was shown to be much more potent than uranium. Remember
> > Metallo. He would use up one pellet of uranium a day (this is the original
> > Metallo) but Kryptonite would power him for LIFE. So I think the "magic"
> > explanation for Kruyptonite must be ruled out. Surely the doctor who first
> > constructed the Metallo host-body couldn't draw on magic. (For that matter,
> > the chain-reaction that turned all K on Earth to iron started while people
> > were trying to make a kryptonite generator.)--Al.
> >
> > PS. What is the one non-Kryptonian that could have been destroyed by a
form of
> > kryptonite? Swamp Thing. He would be vulnerable to White K.
Not after Alan Moore got done with him. WK would only kill the current
host body. He'd just grow a new one a few seconds later.
>
> Wouldn't the Floronic Man be vulnerable to it? And maybe Solomon Grundy,
> even? They're all plant-based creatures.
>
Floro, most likely. But Solomon Grundy is not considered "alive" in the
normal sense, so "killing" him with WK may not work as well.
--Alan
Isaac
>
>This is not a problem if one views Kryptonite as a 'stable' radioactive
>Trans-uranium element. As K decays it eventually reaches one of the
>unstable Trans-uranium elements which tend to quite literally 'fall apart'
>(they split into two elements) with iron being the largest (amountwise)
>stable element.
The atomic number of iron is 26. It's isotopes have atomic weights
betwen 50 and 60 or so. I can't imagine this being the largest stable
component of the split of a trans-uranium element (Uraninum I think has
an atomic number of 92 with a weight in the 230-240 range). I think splits
more along the 40-55 range for atomic number would be more likely.
Besides this kind of splitting apart (fission) would have to release radiation
that would affect humans (neutrons and gammas and stuff).
And the decay your talking about. Wouldn't alpha or beta particles be
released if the green-k is actually changing into new elements?
Wouldn't these affect humans?
I think your explanation introduces more problems than it explains. Either
that or I'm just a geek.
Isaac
Danny Sichel
> (al.sch...@nashville.com) writes:
>> PS. What is the one non-Kryptonian that could have been destroyed by a form of
>> kryptonite? Swamp Thing. He would be vulnerable to White K.
> Wouldn't the Floronic Man be vulnerable to it? And maybe Solomon Grundy,
> even? They're all plant-based creatures.
... and then there's Medphyll, who'd be vulnerable not only to white,
but also gold, kryptonite.
(Actually, there are very few lifeforms that couldn't be detroyed by
being bludgeoned with a sufficiently large and/or pointy piece of
kryptonite. But that's not really the idea here...)
Bruce L. Grubb
irc...@latveria.castledoom.org (Isaac) wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 06:17:27 -0700, Bruce L. Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>>This is not a problem if one views Kryptonite as a 'stable' radioactive
>>Trans-uranium element. As K decays it eventually reaches one of the
>>unstable Trans-uranium elements which tend to quite literally 'fall apart'
>>(they split into two elements) with iron being the largest (amountwise)
>>stable element.
>By 'stable' I assume you mean it decays rather than falls apart.
This is what is gnerally meant by a 'stable' Trans-uranium element
(plutonium being a real life 'stable' Trans-uranium element)
>The atomic number of iron is 26. It's isotopes have atomic weights
>betwen 50 and 60 or so. I can't imagine this being the largest stable
>component of the split of a trans-uranium element (Uraninum I think has
>an atomic number of 92 with a weight in the 230-240 range). I think splits
>more along the 40-55 range for atomic number would be more likely.
Accually IIRC Trans-uranium elements above 103 don't 'split' evenly but
instead 'divide' into a more stable sub/trans-uranium element and a much
smaller element. I seem to remember reading about one of the newer
trans-uranium elements (105+) falling apart into iron and something else.
>Besides this kind of splitting apart (fission) would have to release radiation
>that would affect humans (neutrons and gammas and stuff).
As I pointed out previously in this thread: Pre-Crisis Kryptonite was a
radioactive element whose radiations could only be stopped by lead. Since
alpha and beta particles can be stopped by other thinner materials this
leaves us with gamma particles.
>And the decay your talking about. Wouldn't alpha or beta particles be
>released if the green-k is actually changing into new elements?
This is what -all- known radioactive materials do. The ones with the
lower atomic weights (like Carbon 14 and Potasium 40) only generate alpha
particles. The ones with the higher atomic weights (like Uranium and
Plutonium) generate beta and gamma rays in addition to alpha particles.
By stating that pre-crisis Kryptonite was a radioactive element it was a
-given- that it had to decay into something; it is the consequence of an
element being radioactive.
>Wouldn't these affect humans?
Again I pointed out this flaw with pre crisis Kryptonite previously:
<Any element pumping out the amount of rems that all forms of pre-crisis K
apperently did would have given any living thing nearby a real bad case of
radiation poisoning. This aspect of K was finally explored post-Crisis
with Luthor's termimal radiation poisoning due to constantly wearing a K
ring.>
>I think your explanation introduces more problems than it explains. Either
>that or I'm just a geek.
Again as I pointed out earlier trying to make sence of pre-crisis
Kryptonite from a 'real world' science point of view is not possible
because some many things are quite simply 'wrong' with it:
First it is an established fact different isotobes of an element look and
chemically act identical to each other and yet the different colors of
Kryptonite are explained as them being different isotobes which is total
nonsence.
Second, radiation's damamge is *always* culmulative so the idea that
Superman could keep running into Green K and Red K and not suffer any long
turn effects is also ridiculous.
Third, in of itself radiation is not selective about what it effects. So
the pre-crisis idea that Green, Red, and Anti K were harmless to
non-Krptonians, Blue only effected Bizarros, and White only effcted plants
was silly.
Steve McCormick
>> >Here's something that's been bothering me. Kara Zor-El was exposed to
>> >Gold-K twice. The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off
>> >wildly. The second time it was acting very slowly and once she was out
>> >of the range of the rays her powers started coming back. Want to take a
>> >shot at explaning the first one, since it lasted for several issues in
>> >of the Supergirl comic runs?
>> Geez! You've stumped me on this one! Any idea which Supergirl series?
>> Which issues? I'd love to read it/them.
>Skekowsky's takeover of Supergirl around 1969. I'm trying to remember the
>explanation of her on/off again powers...wasn't that Gold K mentioned as
>being scientifically altered? (I had a fire a few years ago and lost some of
>my comics, so I can't look it up directly.) It lasted through Skekowsky's
>run, but was ignored for the most part afterwards...i.e., she got
>better.--Al.
>--
>Al Schroeder
>http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/journal.htm
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
There was one story where a red kryptonite meteor and a gold kryptonite
meteor collided, and Superman was exposed to the red/gold radiation. It
had the effect of giving him amnesia (probably from the red part), but also
this time the effects didn't wear off as they normally did. The rest of
the story had Superman relearning how to use his powers, while mistakenly
believing that they were given to him by his costume.
After several days, Superman gets hit by a truck and falls across some
high-voltage wires, which restores his memory.
"Better a cage than a chain."
YOS, Steve McCormick
Steve McCormick
Some Gold-K stories I remember:
Superman uses Gold-K out of a glass display to stop a clone of himself
created by Lex Luthor.
In a Legion of Superheroes story, a future crimelord tries to expose
Superboy (disguised as Dev-Em) to Gold K.
In a story where Bruce Wayne is led to believe he may be from Krypton, he
finds some Gold K in the possession of a famous scientist and thinks it may
be the reason he lost his "powers".
In an imaginary story, Clark Kent is exposed to Gold K as an infant and as
a result grows up to be Batman instead of Superman. His powers are
restored in the end by Lex Luthor.
In another imaginary story, Luthor kidnaps Lana Lang (in this one,
Superman's wife), and shows her a cannon which he intends to use to fire a
Gold Kryptonite meteor at Superman. Lana manages to fire the meteor
harmlessly into space (Luthor only has one: apparently he never thought of
splitting it up into smaller chunks) and gets herself killed in the
process.
In a "Lois Lane" story, a miniature Lois Lane clone uses a Gold K earring
to strip an evil miniature Superman clone (created by Darkseid) of his
powers.
And there's an old Superfriends episode centered around the Superfriends'
efforts to keep Darkseid from buying a fragment of Gold K at an galactic
underworld auction.
Some questions on Gold K:
How does Superman know the effects are permanent and incurable?
If Superman were to walk slowly towards a piece, would he begin to feel its
effects at a certain distance and quickly fly away? Or would at a certain
point suddenly lose his powers with no warning whatsoever?
I personally am glad they got rid of it. It just seemed a little cheesy
that the bad guys were able to expose Superman to Green K whenever they
wanted, but change the color to Gold... also, I have to wonder why
Superman never thought to expose the Phantom Zone criminals to it. Just get
suited up in lead armor, get some Gold K, turn on the Phantom Zone
projector and beam the bad guys right on top of it, then send them back.
ReGenesis0
>that the bad guys were able to expose Superman to Green K whenever they
>wanted, but change the color to Gold... also, I have to wonder why
>Superman never thought to expose the Phantom Zone criminals to it. Just get
>suited up in lead armor, get some Gold K, turn on the Phantom Zone
>projector and beam the bad guys right on top of it, then send them back.
You notice that virtually every story you named was an imaginary one...
there's a good reason.
Gold K is inherently unfriendly with a mainstream Superman story- if you have
a substance that permenantly strips Supes of his powers, it becomes an
impossible suspension of disbelief that Luthur wouldnt' suceed in exposing him
SOONER or later. It's elimination from DCU proper was a good thing. (Why
didn't luthur get a gold K ring made up instead of green K?)
Now, in imaginary stories you can do it. For instance in an imaginary story I
wrote, there exists orange K which had the property of permenantly changing a
Kryptonian's powers. Such a substance is untennable in regular continuity, but
fine for an elseworlds. (in this case, it turns Kal-El into an energy being,
imagine that!)
-Derik
http://fly.to/derik
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/studio/7110
"I hear Dana Carvey calling out 'Naked Banjo' over and over again in my
head..."-Me
Steve Parker
McCormick) wrote:
>
>
>
>Some Gold-K stories I remember:
>
>Superman uses Gold-K out of a glass display to stop a clone of himself
>created by Lex Luthor.
Action 500. I think (I didn't care for the story, m'self.)
>Some questions on Gold K:
>How does Superman know the effects are permanent and incurable?
1) The Science Council in Kandor thinks so. 2) Lex Luthor thinks so.
3) Quex-Ul was exposed to it and remained powerless (until a Phantom
Zone God gave him back his powers about 3 seconds before killing him)
for 20+ years (real time).
>If Superman were to walk slowly towards a piece, would he begin to feel its
>effects at a certain distance and quickly fly away? Or would at a certain
>point suddenly lose his powers with no warning whatsoever?
It's an all or nothing thing. Depending on the story you read it's
effects are touch-only or *very* (inches) short range. But when it
affects you, you loose all you powers at once, forever.
>I personally am glad they got rid of it. It just seemed a little cheesy
>that the bad guys were able to expose Superman to Green K whenever they
>wanted, but change the color to Gold...
Gold was vastly rarer than Green or red. (there were only 3-4 pieces
of it in existence.
> also, I have to wonder why
>Superman never thought to expose the Phantom Zone criminals to it. Just get
>suited up in lead armor, get some Gold K, turn on the Phantom Zone
>projector and beam the bad guys right on top of it, then send them back.
One answer that I think everyone will agree with was that, except for
Jax-Ur, no one in the Phantom Zone had a life sentence. It would have
been wrong to cripple them (from Supe's perspective).
There was a story where he (Superman) beamed a small piece of Gold-K
into the Phantom Zone so that if the Projector was used illicitly, the
Gold-K would be beamed out at the same time as the criminals and
depower them. (I think the piece was removed later...it was a sentient
piece of Kryptonite (don't ask))
The third reason that about half the people here will argue with is
that in one or two stories it was stated that if a Kryptonian was
exposed to Gold-K, it would remove not only their powers, but the
powers of any kids they might have. A Kandorian couple exiled
themselves from Kandor in a story rather than allowing their future
kids to intermarry and remove potential super powers from the
Kandorians through interbreeding. (there was a long debate about this
here a while ago. You might want to check Deja-news.
Steve
Check out the Field Guide to Kryptonite on my web page:
http://www.mindspring.com/~sparker9/
Bruce L. Grubb
>On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:58:49 GMT, s...@wkpowerlink.com (Steve
>McCormick) wrote:
>>
>>Some Gold-K stories I remember:
>>
>>Superman uses Gold-K out of a glass display to stop a clone of himself
>>created by Lex Luthor.
> Action 500. I think (I didn't care for the story, m'self.)
The clone came back in a later story wanting to take over the Clark Kent
part of Superman's life. Thats to some plastic surgury the clone wound up
taking the place of another reporter who died in an accident.
>>Some questions on Gold K:
>>How does Superman know the effects are permanent and incurable?
>1) The Science Council in Kandor thinks so. 2) Lex Luthor thinks so.
>3) Quex-Ul was exposed to it and remained powerless (until a Phantom
>Zone God gave him back his powers about 3 seconds before killing him)
>for 20+ years (real time).
The problem with the idea that Gold K's effects were permanent and
incurable is NOT bore out by in continuity stories. As pointed out
previously in this thread
by Disruptor <math...@gte.net> Kara Zor-El was exposed to Gold-K twice:
<The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off wildly. The second
time it was acting very slowly and once she was out of the range of the
rays her powers started coming back. Want to take a shot at explaning the
first one, since it lasted for several issues in of the Supergirl comic
runs?>
Further complicating matters is that Superman himself encountered a
Red/Gold K rock. Not only didn't the Red/Gold K permanantly remove his
powers but the memory loss it did cause was temporarily.
Also there was a story cited in another thread where Supergirl loses her
powers to to a ray built by Lesla Lar. Mxyzptlk seeing Linda in her
Supergirl costume thinks it would be fun to make a girl more powerful than
Superman and so give her superpowers via his 5D powers. The interesting
thing is that Mxyzptlk induced superpowers did NOT disappear when he went
back to the 5 dimension.
Never mind that the story with the intellegent piece of Gold K ended with
the Phantom Zone criminals stating that even if they can escape form the
Zone they will have no superpowers due to exposure to the Gold K in the
Zone. So explaining how Phantom Zoners had super powers after this story
is a real problem.
KET
wrote:
>In article <36a1fb7...@news.mindspring.com>, spar...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>The problem with the idea that Gold K's effects were permanent and
>incurable is NOT bore out by in continuity stories. As pointed out
>previously in this thread
>by Disruptor <math...@gte.net> Kara Zor-El was exposed to Gold-K twice:
>
><The first time her powers went fluctuating on and off wildly. The second
>time it was acting very slowly and once she was out of the range of the
>rays her powers started coming back. Want to take a shot at explaning the
>first one, since it lasted for several issues in of the Supergirl comic
>runs?>
I can, because Disruptor got it a bit skewed. The fluctuating powers
came after Supergirl was given an anti-superpower pill by a
criminal/playboy-type working for a villianess named Starfire (not the
one in the Titans). This story began in Adventure #402 (February
1971) and this condition lasted throughout the rest of Supergirl's
Adventure run.
The Gold K story was in Adventure #400 (December 1970), where
Supergirl was exposed to a diabolical plot by her old villianess Black
Flame, with help from some Phantom Zone cronies. Supposedly Supergirl
hadn't been exposed to Gold K long enough, so that she could still.
recover from the exposure.
She had earlier in the story been exposed to a magic spell from an
evil leprechaun (which simulated running into a solid wall of Green
K), so that could also have been a factor in why Supergirl retained
her powers (Kryptonite doesn't work if they're already powerless).
>
>Further complicating matters is that Superman himself encountered a
>Red/Gold K rock. Not only didn't the Red/Gold K permanantly remove his
>powers but the memory loss it did cause was temporarily.
>
>Also there was a story cited in another thread where Supergirl loses her
>powers to to a ray built by Lesla Lar. Mxyzptlk seeing Linda in her
>Supergirl costume thinks it would be fun to make a girl more powerful than
>Superman and so give her superpowers via his 5D powers. The interesting
>thing is that Mxyzptlk induced superpowers did NOT disappear when he went
>back to the 5 dimension.
Actually, Supergirl's original powers returned after Mxy's spell had
worn off. This happened after Supergirl exposed herself to Red K and
went through three changes in body structure and size, not realizing
that it would still affect her, even though Green K didn't at the time
due to Mxy's spell.
>
>Never mind that the story with the intellegent piece of Gold K ended with
>the Phantom Zone criminals stating that even if they can escape form the
>Zone they will have no superpowers due to exposure to the Gold K in the
>Zone. So explaining how Phantom Zoners had super powers after this story
>is a real problem.
See the story above. If already powerless, Kryptonite has no effect on
Kryptonians.
KET
Trevor McCoy
>hadn't been exposed to Gold K long enough, so that she could still.
>recover from the exposure.
That makes sense, since Superman has never died instantly from exposure to
Green Kryptonite.
Vic Vitek
>>One answer that I think everyone will agree with was that,
>>except for Jax-Ur, no one in the Phantom Zone had a life
>>sentence.
where Proty designs a contest to select a new leader, he has
Phantom Girl go into the Phantom Zone and find the one person
left in it, who describes his crime (I can't remember exactly
what it was, though). Everyone else, including Jax-Ur, was gone
by then.
Vic Vitek
--
.. And that's the way it is, today, here, now, etc. At least according to me
and me alone- not my boss, my wife, my kids, my cat, my dog, my mailperchild.
BHMarks
>>>One answer that I think everyone will agree with was that,
>>>except for Jax-Ur, no one in the Phantom Zone had a life
>>>sentence.
>I seem to remember that in an Adventure Comics story, the one
>where Proty designs a contest to select a new leader, he has
>Phantom Girl go into the Phantom Zone and find the one person
>left in it, who describes his crime (I can't remember exactly
>what it was, though). Everyone else, including Jax-Ur, was gone
>by then.
Yes. Jax-Ur had a life sentence, but this other fellow had a life sentence
*without possibility of parole*.
He seemed rather bitter, as I recall.
As ever,
Bennet
Steve Parker
<70007...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Hi!
>
>>>One answer that I think everyone will agree with was that,
>>>except for Jax-Ur, no one in the Phantom Zone had a life
>>>sentence.
>
>I seem to remember that in an Adventure Comics story, the one
>where Proty designs a contest to select a new leader, he has
>Phantom Girl go into the Phantom Zone and find the one person
>left in it, who describes his crime (I can't remember exactly
>what it was, though). Everyone else, including Jax-Ur, was gone
>by then.
I just checked it out (The guy's name was >gag< The Mighty Gazor.
Uh-huh. Sure.) It *does* say that, but I'll assume that A) Phantom
Girl was wrong (we were told in every Jax-Ur appearance that he was
the only person in the Phantom Zone with a Life Sentence) or B) that
Jax-Ur escaped and died somewhere during that 1000 year period.
I'm impressed that you remembered this. I had completedly forgotten
the >choke< Might Gazor's first appearance!
Steve