Jellyfish and the dice seeding????
High Plains Drifter
I have down loaded JF and find that the opponent snares some
remarkable dice values just at the right time. I am an
experienced player and do not understanding the di seeding
function, can someone explain it to me.
Thanks...High Plain Drifter
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John Goodwin
>I have down loaded JF and find that the opponent snares some
>remarkable dice values just at the right time. I am an
>experienced player and do not understanding the di seeding
>function, can someone explain it to me.
>
>Thanks...High Plain Drifter
The seeding functions are there to enable anyone who thinks that JF is
getting "too lucky" dice.
Using them you can prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that JF is not
cheating.
This topic has been discussed many times here, and only the most
paranoid are not 100% happy that JF dice are fair.
If you've only played against humans who are "casual" backgammon
players, playing against JF can be quite a shock.
You can learn a great deal from analysing the "luck" that JF has.
As to the mechanics of seeding.
The random numbers that are used to generate the dice are obtained
from a mathemical sequence.
This takes a starting point, a "seed", and manipulates it in a very
carefully determined manner( if it's a good one) to produce a pseudo
random number.
JF allows you to select this seed, and also the position in the
sequence.
This will *not*, in the long term, get you "better" dice.
It can enable you to prove to yourself that JF is not cheating,
although it does take a little bit of effort.
If the above doesn't reassure you of JF's integrety, please repost,
and I will dig the methods out of my archive.
(They are sufficiently involved that I don't want to type them in
again).
JG
John Goodwin
It is fairly common for someone to post a question here
(rec.games.backgammon), querying the apparent good luck Jellyfish (JF)
has with its dice.
I have prepared this step by step guide for anyone who is not
convinced by the simple reassurances of those who have used and trust
it.
Section A
This is for those of a seriously pedantic disposition
You cannot *prove* that JF *never* manipulates the dice (at least
not in any feasible time span).
You cannot prove absolutely, that JF did not manipulate the dice
for a certain game, because there is an absurdly small possibility
that it is designed to win some specific games.
Neither of these caveats should concern anyone who does not work for
the security services of a disturbingly paranoid government
Section B
To satisfy yourself that JF has not manipulated the dice in any
particular game.
At the end of the game you wish to examine, note down the seed and
counter. They are to be found in the status bar, at the bottom right
of the JF window.
Print out the moves of the game. These can be found in the file
GAME.GAM, in the directory from which JF is run.
Count the total number of moves for each player, and subtract this
from the count that you have noted.
XX:
Start a new game, and, at some point, go to Settings|Seed, and set
the seed and counter to the values they were at the start of the
match you are checking.
Continue to play. You will note that the dice that are generated are
exactly the same as those from the match that you have printed.
You may repeat the steps from XX as many times as you like, and you
will see that no matter what the state of the board, JF always
generates the same sequence from the given seed and counter.
Section C
To satisfy yourself that JF is not using foreknowledge of the dice it
is about to generate.
Play a game, and produce a listing of GAME.GAM.
Check Settings|Manual Dice, so that you can feed in the dice
throws yourself.
Now, JF will have no way of knowing what dice are about to be
thrown.
Play the game, feeding in the dice values from the game you have
listed.
You will see that it proceeds in exactly the same way as it did when
JF was generating the dice.
This demonstrates that JF will play the same board, the same way,
even when it is not generating the dice, and thus can have no idea
what throws will be made.
Section D
It has been pointed out that JF could (in theory) be cheating, and
keeping a record of its activities so that if you try to catch it out
if would behave as if it was innocent of any wrong doing.
If you are *that* paranoid, then you might care to run the tests on a
different machine to that on which the initial games were played.
Make sure that you disconnect both machines from any kind of network
first (before running the initial game).
That might convince you, but some good quality psychiatric treatment
would probably be more beneficial.
---------
Do not take the contents of section D to imply any suggestion that you
are being unreasonable in questioning JF in the first instance.
If you have never played intermediate to strong players before, and
are unaware of the solid reputation that JF has amongst the many good
players who use it regularly (and the not so good ones such as
myself), you would need to be somewhat gullible not to seek some
reassurance.
JG
EdmondT
My father is a terrific backgammon player and he was always being accused of
either having too much luck, or even being able to throw numbers he wanted on
the dice. He always laughed this off, and told me that if you position your
men correctly, it always looks to weaker players that you are lucky.
It was good advice for me.
John Greenwood
J...@opticon.demon.co.uk (John Goodwin) wrote:
>On Tue, 26 May 1998 19:00:25 -0700, High Plains Drifter
><"magna<1>"@jps.net> wrote:
>>I have down loaded JF and find that the opponent snares some
>>remarkable dice values just at the right time. I am an
>>experienced player and do not understanding the di seeding
>>function, can someone explain it to me.
>>
>>Thanks...High Plain Drifter
>The seeding functions are there to enable anyone who thinks that JF is
>getting "too lucky" dice.
>Using them you can prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that JF is not
>cheating.
A brilliant pre-emptive strike at "the dice must be rigged" school of
thought. Let's hope it is totally effective! Thanks:)
---
John Greenwood
Vince Mounts
I used to think Jellyfish cheated too. There are 3 situations that arise
that I had suspicions about.
1) After a cube based on blitzing chances Jellyfish seemed especially able
to carry out the blitz successfully
2) I am playing a holding game with cube in hand and Jelly blows by me so I
run to save gammon. I seemed to notice a lot of big doubles being rolled to
get Jelly the gammon
3) The opposite of 2. Jellyfish is running to save gammon. I noticed it
rolled very well with a lot of doubles and big numbers to end up saving the
gammon the vast majority of the time.
SOLUTION:
1) Get a pair of dice
2) From the Settings Menu select "Manual Dice"
3) Roll the dice yourself and enter them in (note: make sure you give Jelly
a chance to double before rolling its dice or you get the unfair advantage
of knowing what it is going to get,,, I made that mistake once and realized
oops thats not fair if I know its gonna roll 6-6 I'm dropping lol)
You will find that Jelly still kicks your butt. This initially made me think
I should just go back top trusting the program to roll for me. But due to
coincindence (i think) #1,2 and 3 _seemed_ to happen a lot less with manual
dice. Just a fluke I'm sure but I still roll my own because that haunting
suspicion in the back of my mind surely caused me to play a weaker game. So
just roll your own dice. You will be able to play better if you are not
constantly worrying about wehter the dice are fixed.
-----
Vince Mounts (a.k.a einniv)
E-Mail: vmo...@mindspring.com
Home Page URL: http://vmounts.home.mindspring.com
High Plains Drifter @jps.net> <"magna<1> wrote in message
<356B73B8...@jps.net>...
>I have down loaded JF and find that the opponent snares some
>remarkable dice values just at the right time. I am an
>experienced player and do not understanding the di seeding
>function, can someone explain it to me.
>
>Thanks...High Plain Drifter
>
High Plains Drifter
Thanks to all that replied. All and all JF just seems to get in
explainable numbers when the game is critical and MY numbers are
less than adequate. Basically I will not play loose with JF.
Thanks again
High Plains Drifter......
John Greenwood
High Plains Drifter <"magna<1>"@jps.net> wrote:
>Thanks to all that replied. All and all JF just seems to get in
>explainable numbers > when the game is critical and MY numbers are
>less than adequate.
But the whole point is they _are_ explainable! The roll is entirely
determined by the seed value ( which stays fixed for a game unless you
change it) and a counter value (which increases by one every move (
again unless you change it)
Next time a "too-good-to-be-true" roll comes along just make a note of
the seed and counter value.
In a later or the same game when the same roll would be a real bad one
for JF, change the seed and counter to those earlier values. Lo and
behold JF will roll the same roll as before!
When you've done it a few times you should be convinced JF doesn't
cheat on rolling the dice.
>Basically I will not play loose with JF.
This is an entirely different matter. Unless you are very good you
will lose games to JF playing at its better levels. You can always
knock the skill level right down but then, of course, you will be
using JF to teach you inferior moves in given poistions which won't
help you improve as much as the better levels.
I'm trying to convince you that you are wrong because it would be a
shame if you were put off JF and the great opportunities it gives to
learn how to play better because you thought its better play was by
cheating not by playing better than yourself. BG is not a simple game
to play well. JF just is able to use more rolls well because of the
good moves it plays beforehand.
>Thanks again
Hope you try the experiment and can settle down with JF. It would be
worth a few moments to do so IMHO.
---
John Greenwood
EdmondT
A few points:
1. JellyFish does not cheat;
2. It appears to you that it gets "great rolls" because it positions the men
in places where more rolls are "great rolls" that you do;
3. Lesser players always think that the people (or programs) that beat them
are "lucky." They aren't lucky, they just appear that way.
Edm...@aol.com
Graham Price
High Plains Drifter <"magna<1>"@jps.net> wrote in article
<356E0D7A...@jps.net>...
> just seems to get in
> explainable numbers ...
> High Plains Drifter......
I'm pretty sure I can explain any dice roll in the range 1-1 to 6-6
but where do the ones that can't be explained come from and
what is their range? :)
Graham.