EXCESSIVE SICK LEAVE?
sval...@wsii.com
To be blunt, what is excessive sick leave and how is it determined? Does
your supervisor? And how?..... More importantly what is the correct way?
I told my colleagues there'd be someone who would know. So please take
the time to post your reply.
Thanks,
RI clerk
Mountain Man
sval...@wsii.com wrote:
Well....... where "I" work (notice I'm not speaking for everyone) once
each quarter the supervisor sits down with the employee to go over the
3972 together. IF the employee has 3 or more unscheduled sick leaves
taken during the previous 6 month period, an official discussion is
conducted and the employee is warned that any further unscheduled sick
leave within the next quarter will be grounds for a letter of warning.
IF there is more unscheduled sick leave taken within the period
discussed, the letter of warning is issued..... any further use of
unscheduled sick leave results in suspension, etc. etc. etc. Now.....
this current policy has only been in affect for a short time and has
not been challenged by the grievance process as yet...... some are
pending though.
Bob
Old Sarge
Now how in the hell can one be punished for using a benefit that is
earned? I have yet to know of anyone being disciplined for using Sick
Leave, unless of course it was abused (taken due to no AL, or taken and
not really sick).
I personally would like to see a letter of warning for using Sick Leave.
How about NOT using Annual Leave?
Sick leave is earned so you can still be paid for being off sick or for
any other medical reason. Unscheduled sick leave on a regular basis I
can see as a possiblity of abuse if a "pattern" is shown, i.e., always
calls in on day before or after DDO.
The solution is as simple as obtaining proper medical documentation even
if not required (less than 3 days or Supervisor hasn't asked for it).
Give a copy to your Supervisor and retain a copy for yourself. Also
ensure your medical records has a copy. Now, let them discipline you
for being sick AND following the orders of your Physician. Boy, would I
love to see that happen. There is also an unwritten policy concerning
Veterans that use VA facilities in conjunction with their disability. I
don't believe there has ever been discipline or any other
"administrative" action taken against a Veteran for using the VA,
scheduled or unscheduled. They would be walking on thin ice there.
The same would go for anyone else with a chronic condition. In
Veteran's cases, most Vets were hired with their disability and
therefore the USPS committed themselves to accomodating them with those
disabilities. However, if the disability should change (worsen), then
it becomes a gray area. The Veteran must be able to perform the job fo
which they were hired to do.
Now I'm rambling again and setting myself up for attack. Therefore, if
anyone has any proof of anyone being disciplined for using sick leave, I
would like to know. If you want to keep it off the newsgroup for
obvious reasons, just email me.
Now RSL is another matter altogether. Even though the USPS says it
isn't punitive in nature, it is a step in the punitive direction. But
then again, if the employee has medical documentation, I don't believe
there is much they can do but order a Fitness for Duty if necessary.
Interesting topic.
--
Remove NOSPAM from email address to reply
-
******************************************
Rich Greene, US Army Retired '82 (SFC E7)
Microsoft Windows98 Beta ID: 299036
http://home.att.net/~old.sarge
*******************************************
Bobodean
If you have a good shop steward, you can beat this "sick leave abuse" thing.
Tell them that you are not abusing sick leave, you are using it. Tell them
that's what it's there for...for when you are sick! Tell them that you are not
calling in to go to the ball game or to go golfing...you are calling in because
you are sick. Tell them that if you are put on "sick leave restriction", then
you will not be out for only one day, you will be out for at least 2 because
you cannot get an instant appointment with your doctor. Also, your doctor might
say that you need to stay home for awhile and recoperate. Don't let yourself be
bullied! If they didn't want you to use your sick leave, they wouldn't have
given it to you. Did they think that you wouldn't use it? Of course not.
Just remember, if you call in and your NOT sick, you takes your chances. Don't
leave the house, only to go to the doctor. Don't get caught doing something
stupid. I know of a guy who called in sick to go to a play off game and was
seen on TV by the boss. Dumb.
JAdamson...21234
-------------------------------
Mr. Mcgee, don't make me angry.
You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
ElaineNV
Ok, I"ve been quiet for a couple days now, and feel the urge to comment, and
you're gonna hear the management schpiel now...
1) You earn sick leave, true. It's to be used for when you are INCAPACITATED
for duty. Technically, if you've stubbed your toe, you're not incapacitated
for duty. It's not the alternative to denied annual leave.
2) What is abusive sick leave? Technically, it's using more than you earn.
And then using it willie-nillie, as opposed to a one incident illness/injury.
So, if you're calling in on either side of your scheduled days off, and have
done this more than 3 times in any 3 month period, you COULD be considered
having abused your sick leave. Another form of abuse is to call in sick when
the annual leave you've requested was denied.
3) How can sick leave benefit you? It's the cheapest form of disability
insurance you can have. If I hadn't used the sick leave that I earned in 1980
when I was hired in at $8.00/hour, it would now be worth over $20 an hour.
4) How can using "too much" sick leave hurt you? Well, like it or not, if
you're going to apply for a best qualified job, managment or not, they will
look at your sick leave to determine your reliability. And, if you apply for
a transfer, the new office will probably want you to explain why you don't have
85% of your sick leave earned or so. And unless you had a surgery or some
maternity leave, they'll be skeptical.
5) Don't let any of the above piss you off terribly. You're reading the words
of someone who's received more discipline relative to her sick leave than most
of the people you know, has beat all of them, has transferred and has been
promoted. So it just goes to show you...you just never know. But I agree with
some past posters...cover your ass with a doctors' note if there's gonna be any
signs of trouble!!!!
Elaine
Dee
ElaineNV <elai...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980113021...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
I'd like to add a couple of more points here.
1. If you were hired before 1984, your sick leave goes towards your
retirement. If you retire with 30 years, and you have six months sick
leave, you get credit for 30 1/2 years. Makes it a good reason to hang on
to as much as you can.
2. If you were hired after 1984, you lose what you don't use. Makes it a
good reason to use it all before you retire.
3. Most doctors and dentists don't want you to come visit at night, so you
are forced to go during the day.
That's it.
Dee
>
>
Daniel G.
bobo...@aol.com (Bobodean) wrote:
-snip-
>Don't
>leave the house, only to go to the doctor. Don't get caught doing something
>stupid. I know of a guy who called in sick to go to a play off game and was
>seen on TV by the boss. Dumb.
>JAdamson...21234
>-------------------------------
>Mr. Mcgee, don't make me angry.
>You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
Along time ago, before I was hired, a few of our city carriers
worked nights at Yankee Stadium as ushers. They banged in so that
they could work an afternoon game, and wound up on TV. Waved to the
camera and everything. They were seen. No discipline...
Daniel Gislao
Remove "0927" from email address to reply!
Daniel G.
elai...@aol.com (ElaineNV) wrote:
>Ok, I"ve been quiet for a couple days now, and feel the urge to comment, and
>you're gonna hear the management schpiel now...
>
>1) You earn sick leave, true. It's to be used for when you ar >INCAPACITATED for duty. Technically, if you've stubbed your toe, you're not >incapacitated for duty. It's not the alternative to denied annual leave.
You have no idea how many times carriers have had minor
injuries, were told to come in and case, and then sent out to the
street. They tried it with me once. I went home. You really are
better off calling in sick.
>2) What is abusive sick leave? Technically, it's using more than you earn.
>And then using it willie-nillie, as opposed to a one incident >illness/injury.
>So, if you're calling in on either side of your scheduled days off, and have
>done this more than 3 times in any 3 month period, you COULD be considered
>having abused your sick leave. Another form of abuse is to call in sick >when the annual leave you've requested was denied.
Which is why if you have something very important to do, don't
put in for AL, bang in!
>3) How can sick leave benefit you? It's the cheapest form of disability
>insurance you can have. If I hadn't used the sick leave that I earned in >1980 when I was hired in at $8.00/hour, it would now be worth over $20 an >hour.
Since most of us do physical work, you never know when you are going
to need it...
>4) How can using "too much" sick leave hurt you? Well, like it or not, if
>you're going to apply for a best qualified job, managment or not, they will
>look at your sick leave to determine your reliability. And, if you apply >for a transfer, the new office will probably want you to explain why you >don't have 85% of your sick leave earned or so. And unless you had a >surgery or some maternity leave, they'll be skeptical.
85%? I have to check my last pay stub. I guess I averaged 3
or 4 days a year. Most of it should have been AL. (I could not AL it
unless it was prime time and they were required to give it to me under
our local agreement.)
>5) Don't let any of the above piss you off terribly. You're reading the >words of someone who's received more discipline relative to her sick leave >than most of the people you know, has beat all of them, has transferred and >has been promoted. So it just goes to show you...you just never know. But >I agree with some past posters...cover your ass with a doctors' note if >there's gonna be any signs of trouble!!!!
>
>Elaine
Daniel Gislao
C Marx
Was just informed yesterday at work by my fellow carriers that management is
planning on suspending me for excessive use of sick leave. Why my
supervisor was discussing it on the workfloor while I was off this weekend
I'll never know. I was never even placed on the restricted sick leave list
before this either. I've provided management with 3 different notes from 3
different doctors explaining what management calls "excessive" use of MY
earned sick leave. I have 2 questions:
1) What can I do about my supervisor informing my fellow employees of this
disciplinary action against
me even before I became aware of it?
2) Doesn't the Family Leave Act forbid management from harrassing employees
with discipline if proper
medical documentation was given.
Appreciate your help folks. These latest actions by management have caused
me much emotional pain and suffering and I'm not sure when I'll be able to
return to work! Of course, this is causing me to use even more sick
leave....
ElaineNV wrote in message <19980113021...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Tom Glenn
sval...@wsii.com wrote in article <69e4oo$d98$1...@news6.ispnews.com>...
> To be blunt, what is excessive sick leave and how is it determined?
At our station , it has been policy for years that a job discussion will
be
given if an employee has 3 unscheduled absences (be it sick leave or
emergency annual) within a 3 month period .
In my 22+ years of employment , I once qualified for this dubious
distinction.
In Jan 1995 I had the flu bug and was out a couple days , then in Feb I
stayed
home with my daughter one day , as she was legitimately ill. (mumps)
And in March , my father died , and I took a couple days Emergency annual
to attend his funeral. That was my 3rd strike , and I got a job
discussion.
Bitter forever .................
Tom Glenn
eagleeye
On 13 Jan 1998 03:26:30 GMT, "Dee" <ddwe...@cybercomm.net> wrote:
>
>1. If you were hired before 1984, your sick leave goes towards your
>retirement. If you retire with 30 years, and you have six months sick
>leave, you get credit for 30 1/2 years. Makes it a good reason to hang on
>to as much as you can.
>
A lot of folks choose to save it up and use it all prior to
retirement. Why?? Theoretically, you are are your maximum hourly
rate so the leave is worth more.
Also, if you retire with a sick leave balance (pre-1984 folks), the SL
is credited, but think about it for a minute......if you have 6 months
sick leave on the books, and you call out sick for 6 months, you will
also be credited for that 6 months service time, and you will have
enjoyed 6 months off at full pay as well.
Robert DeSavage
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:14:02 GMT, gis...@mindspring.com (Daniel G.)
wrote:
>Daniel Gislao
>
>Remove "0927" from email address to reply!
Danny,
Every time I think about you, I have legitimate reason to bang in. You
make me sick as a dog!!!!!! 8-)))))))))))))))))
Keep eating the 'catch of the day' from the East River.
Bob
Mountain Man
Old Sarge <old.sar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Now how in the hell can one be punished for using a benefit that is
>earned? I have yet to know of anyone being disciplined for using Sick
>Leave, unless of course it was abused (taken due to no AL, or taken and
>not really sick).
>
>I personally would like to see a letter of warning for using Sick Leave.
>
>How about NOT using Annual Leave?
>
>Sick leave is earned so you can still be paid for being off sick or for
>any other medical reason. Unscheduled sick leave on a regular basis I
>can see as a possiblity of abuse if a "pattern" is shown, i.e., always
>calls in on day before or after DDO.
In my office, 3 or more incidence of unscheduled sick leave within six
months is a pattern...... according to "them".
>
>The solution is as simple as obtaining proper medical documentation even
>if not required (less than 3 days or Supervisor hasn't asked for it).
>Give a copy to your Supervisor and retain a copy for yourself. Also
>ensure your medical records has a copy. Now, let them discipline you
>for being sick AND following the orders of your Physician. Boy, would I
>love to see that happen. There is also an unwritten policy concerning
>Veterans that use VA facilities in conjunction with their disability. I
>don't believe there has ever been discipline or any other
>"administrative" action taken against a Veteran for using the VA,
>scheduled or unscheduled. They would be walking on thin ice there.
Any time I have appointments at the VA I notify them at least a day in
advance and it is recorded as scheduled instead of unscheduled sick
leave.
>
>The same would go for anyone else with a chronic condition. In
>Veteran's cases, most Vets were hired with their disability and
>therefore the USPS committed themselves to accomodating them with those
>disabilities. However, if the disability should change (worsen), then
>it becomes a gray area. The Veteran must be able to perform the job fo
>which they were hired to do.
Been there on that one Rich, as you already know. Had to pay for a
physical by an independent Ortho doc to verify that I could do the job
without hinderance by my disabilities. When I was a mailhandler my
condition steadily worsened and I had to get into the Maintenance Dept
to avoid the hassles of possibly not being able to perform my job.
But...... We've been through all that before in another newsgroup :-)
>
>Now I'm rambling again and setting myself up for attack. Therefore, if
>anyone has any proof of anyone being disciplined for using sick leave, I
>would like to know. If you want to keep it off the newsgroup for
>obvious reasons, just email me.
>
Five Letters of Warning were issued this morning for too many
unscheduled sick leaves taken in a 6 month period. As I stated in my
original post, these and the previous issues have not been "proofed"
through the grievance process yet, so who knows if they will stand.
If they stand I'll let you know in a future post.
Bob
Mountain Man
bobo...@aol.com (Bobodean) wrote:
<SNIP>
> I know of a guy who called in sick to go to a play off game and was
>seen on TV by the boss. Dumb.
>JAdamson...21234
>-------------------------------
>Mr. Mcgee, don't make me angry.
>You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
We have a clerk here that has a limited duty assignment that allows
him to only case mail for 50 minutes out of every hour and not be
forced to reach above shoulder level. We had a major ice storm in
October that knocked out power for several days and broke a lot of
trees. Just so happens that the clerk also owns a tree service on the
side and called in sick for three days immediately following the
storm. Well the local newspaper printed a front page picture of the
clerk pulling on a rope to direct a tree being cut down by his
partner....... not real intelligent to say the least :-)
Bob
Mountain Man
elai...@aol.com (ElaineNV) wrote:
>Ok, I"ve been quiet for a couple days now, and feel the urge to comment, and
>you're gonna hear the management schpiel now...
<SNIP>
>3) How can sick leave benefit you? It's the cheapest form of disability
>insurance you can have. If I hadn't used the sick leave that I earned in 1980
>when I was hired in at $8.00/hour, it would now be worth over $20 an hour.
<SNIP>
>Elaine
>
My supervisor has 2000+ hours of sick leave on the books and will
retire in May. What will he get for it?..... 2% more per year in his
retirement pension, but not a pat on the back or certificate of any
kind...... not even a thank you. Is it worth it? Can't even feed a
family at McDonalds once per month with that 2% more pension.
I, personally, like to keep at least 8 weeks worth on the books
because I'm getting older and the potential for my illnesses getting
more severe and frequent are increasing.
Bob
Adam H. Kerman
In article <01bd2044$bc1687a0$1a05...@wichita.feist.com>,
And he didn't give advance notice?
What discipline is there if a carrier dies without permission?
Joseph A. Conroy
What really makes me sick---Sick leave is a guaranteed contractual
entitlement, won at the bargaining table. It is Not something that
management is giving us out of the goodness of their hearts!! If you have
sick leave on the books you should be able to use it without fear of
reprisal. The ONLY reason that management gives a shit is so that they can
get their bonuses for keeping sick leave usage under a minimum percentage.
Their is something morally when management can get bonuses based upon their
ability to intimidate us into not using our contractually guaranteed
entitlements.
Joe in Pgh, Pa
Dee
Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.chinet.com> wrote in article
<69irj8$jlq$1...@chinet.chinet.com>...
You have to ask permission first, or it's not allowed. If you go ahead and
do it anyway, you'll get written up and your survivors will face
disciplinary action.
Dee
>
Robert DeSavage
Not only will the survivors face DA, so will the Medical Examiner and
the undertaker. All will have to do a route that was 'stiffed' the day
before by a casual.
Bob
eagleeye
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:02:43 GMT, "Joseph A. Conroy" <joe...@sgi.net>
wrote:
Just as a point of info, no element of the management bonus system is
tied to Sick Leave percentage. It is based on:
1/3 Voice of the Customer- Delivery Performance (EXFC scores)
1/3 Voice of the Business- Achieving Revenue targets
1/3 Voice of the Employee- safety targets, training targets,
employee business knowledge.
eagleeye
Joseph A. Conroy
eagleeye wrote in message <34c4af71...@news.snip.net>...
>Just as a point of info, no element of the management bonus system is
>tied to Sick Leave percentage. It is based on:
>
>1/3 Voice of the Customer- Delivery Performance (EXFC scores)
>1/3 Voice of the Business- Achieving Revenue targets
>1/3 Voice of the Employee- safety targets, training targets,
>employee business knowledge.
>
>eagleeye
>
That's news to me--definately not what we hear here in Pgh--I will
definately check into it though. Thanks
MiserblOF
>>Now how in the hell can one be punished for using a benefit that is
earned? I have yet to know of anyone being disciplined for using Sick
Leave, unless of course it was abused (taken due to no AL, or taken and
not really sick).
<<
How? Easy, management has been able to get away with it! That's all that
counts in today's world of "business ethics".
MiserblOF
<<< What really makes me sick---Sick leave is a guaranteed contractual
entitlement, won at the bargaining table. It is Not something that
management is giving us out of the goodness of their hearts!! If you have
sick leave on the books you should be able to use it without fear of
reprisal. The ONLY reason that management gives a shit is so that they can
get their bonuses for keeping sick leave usage under a minimum percentage.
Their is something morally when management can get bonuses based upon their
ability to intimidate us into not using our contractually guaranteed
entitlements.
>>>
What is really sickening is the number of people that come in to work coughing,
sneezing, and spreading colds and flu around because of the management b.s.
attached to using sick leave. The fact is that sick leave is EARNED and if
management finds an employee fishing or playing golf while on sick leave that's
one thing, but management is getting away with murder with their discipline for
use of sick leave