Support for TS's
Yasmiin S. Davis
Well I have watched this board for a while and now I have a question --
where is a board that supports TS's -- not CD and not TV at least those
that don't live as women. Guess what our needs are different -- we live
as women -- we don't dress up like them -- we are them -- we are not
baulding old men that at 45 five think we are missning some thing by not
living as womern -- we donn't sit in our closet and jack off thinking
how we really are women--- guess what we are women -- we have been
sinece birth -- we have lived as such -- at risk of life and limb all
out lives -- where is our forum..
Y
Colleen Otten
This is a troll or an insulting formulated request for information
(OTOH, what's the difference). In both cases I would suggest
alt.support.sexreassign
Colleen
--
You got a fast car. But is it fast enough so we can fly away
We gotta make a decision. We leave tonight or live and die this way
--- Fast Car (Tracy Chapman) ---
Rosalind Hengeveld
Yasmiin S. Davis <yas...@gte.net> had written:
> > Well I have watched this board for a while and now I have a question --
> > where is a board that supports TS's -- not CD and not TV at least those
> > that don't live as women. Guess what our needs are different -- we live
> > as women -- we don't dress up like them -- we are them -- we are not
> > baulding old men that at 45 five think we are missning some thing by not
> > living as womern -- we donn't sit in our closet and jack off thinking
> > how we really are women--- guess what we are women -- we have been
> > sinece birth -- we have lived as such -- at risk of life and limb all
> > out lives -- where is our forum..
In article <199707050...@dyna21.worldcity.nl>, Ot...@worldcity.nl
(Colleen Otten) wrote:
> This is a troll or an insulting formulated request for information
> (OTOH, what's the difference). In both cases I would suggest
> alt.support.sexreassign
My impression from her posting profile is that Yasmiin is not a troller but
just a relatively unexperienced newcomer.
Welcome aboard, Yasmiin, and you may want to try alt.support.srs.
--
Rosalind Hengeveld
Starchild0
Yasmiin S. Davis <yas...@gte.net> wrote about Transsexuals:
>we are not baulding old men that at 45 five think we are
>missning some thing by not living as womern
Excuse me?!?!?
I find this statement insulting in a number of ways:
1) 45 year old men are ***NOT*** "old men".
2) Not transitioning until middle age does ***NOT**** invalidate one
being a true Transsexual, which this statement seems to
imply.
3) Having to deal with male pattern baldness does ***NOT***
mean that person is not a true Transsexual. Furthermore many
individuals with male bodies find themselves suffering from
male pattern baldness in their late teens or early twenties
The facts are that some Transsexuals ***ARE*** 45 year olds
suffering with male pattern baldness who appear to be men
and might appear to be "old men" to some younger people who
can't distinguish between the middle aged and the elderly.
And believe me, these folk don't just ***think*** they are missing
something by not living as women, they ***know*** they are, and
what they are missing is being able to live as their true selves.
Not all Transsexuals were lucky enough to grow up in a time
and place where they could transition early enough that they
could say, "We have lived as such -- at risk of life and limb all
our lives."
I agree that Transsexuals have specific needs and that focused
support is helpful. But the tone of your post, besides insulting
Transsexuals who don't transition until middle age, also seems to
attack other Transgendered folk who are not Transsexuals,
as if the only way to say we are different and have different
needs is to say we are better. That is, to use a term I used
in another dialog in this newsgroup, ***HOGWASH***.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/4174
"Be Who You Need/Want To Be!"
Take Care...Love & Joy!
Starchild
Laura Blake
On Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:58:57 -0700, "Yasmiin S. Davis" <yas...@gte.net>
wrote:
>Well I have watched this board for a while and now I have a question --
>where is a board that supports TS's
It's called alt.support.srs
-----
Laura Blake
Visit the TransEqual website at:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/lblake
-----
Colleen Otten
Posted & emailed
Hi Yasmiin,
Maybe I was a bit premature and harsh to call your posting a troll. In
case you don't know what a troll is: a troll is an article posted with
the purpose of heating up the emotions. I saw your postings from 18 days
ago to soc.support.transgendered and concluded you must have read that
group at least that long. You couldn't miss the ongoing battle between
TS'ers and other transgendered people. In that view your post could be
seen as a troll.
I'm a TS'er myself and in case your article was a genuine plea for help
I can only apologise. Don't go to alt.support.sexreassign, that group
was abandoned weeks ago to outrun the sex-spammers. To get rid of these
spammers alt.support.srs was created, a group without the string "sex"
in it.
Gea van der Voort
Hi Yasmiin,
Yasmiin S. Davis <yas...@gte.net> wrote
> Well I have watched this board for a while and now I have a question --
> where is a board that supports TS's
alt.support.srs (and if you understand Dutch: nl.support.transseksueel)
<deliberately snipped the rest of your post>
BTW I don't understand why you have to sneer others in order to get support
for yourself....
(Also see the post of Starchild0)
Hugs
Gea ( ... 46 years old, one year POST-OP at 22 Aug. 97.... )
Werewomon
Great suggestion, but will someone with a little more computer savvy
PLEASE convince AOL this group exists?
yers trooley, Molly duCoeur, Hierodule Emeritus
"There ain't no answer. There ain'tgoing to be any answer. There never has been an answer. That's the answer."-Gertrude Stein
mollyd...@geocities.com
AmandaJaye
In article <19970708052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
were...@aol.com (Werewomon) writes:
>Great suggestion, but will someone with a little more computer savvy
>PLEASE convince AOL this group exists?
>
>
Trying kiddo. But, AOL -is- AOL.........<sigh>
AJ
Lisanne A
Hi AOL sufferers
n article <19970708052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
were...@aol.com (Werewomon) writes:
>>Great suggestion, but will someone with a little more computer savvy
>>PLEASE convince AOL this group exists?
>
Amanda Jaye writes
>Trying kiddo. But, AOL -is- AOL.........<sigh>
Hey, people, what do we expect from a conmpany that doesnt load NG's
quickly, doesn't delete read items, loses our mail, crashes every other
day (at least here in New York it goes like that) I could go on. But what
the hey, I'm too lazy to find another service.
Lots of love
Lisanne
"There are two groups of people in this world, those who put people into two groups, and those who don't.- MARK TWAIN
Adrienne J. Davis
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Yasmiin S. Davis wrote:
> Well I have watched this board for a while and now I have a
> question --
> where is a board that supports TS's -- not CD and not TV at
> least those
> that don't live as women. Guess what our needs are different
> -- we live
> as women -- we don't dress up like them -- we are them -- we
> are not
> baulding old men that at 45 five think we are missning some
> thing by not
> living as womern -- we donn't sit in our closet and jack off
> thinking
> how we really are women--- guess what we are women -- we have
> been
> sinece birth -- we have lived as such -- at risk of life and
> limb all
> out lives -- where is our forum..
Where do you think you *are*? THIS is our forum sister. Yes, we
are women and most truly honest crossdressers will admit that
they are *not* women--but dress up in women's clothing. However,
their presence here doesn't make this any less *your* or my
forum. For the entire time I've been part of this group this
debate has raged on.
I realize that crossdressers and transvestites might, to the
represent *precisely* what you so truly and rightly wish *not* to
be perceived as--a man in a dress. But *you* know the truth of
your own life. If someone perceives you to be that which you're
not correct them.
No one in this newsgroup has the power to make it 'not yours'
unless you first consent to relinquish that power. If you want
*separatist* space for trans-women then you should make that
clear at the outset. I, for one, do not want this space to be a
separatist transwomen space. This is *our* space. FTM's, MTF's,
TV's, CD's, TS's--all of us who are gender different need
someplace to be able to go. There are other spaces as well but
*this* space needs to be a place where anyone who is just poking
his/her/hir head out of the closet can come and *at the very
least* ask--'where do I go to find folks like me? Folks who are
<insert particular flavor of trans*.* here>?
Making statements about balding men masturbating in closets
*doesn't* create such an environment. I'm not saying 'make nice'
with everyone here. There is room for and I enjoy this group
most when there are real and substantial issues being
discussed--from a variety of perspectives. But crossdressers
need support as much as transexual women do. Is crossdressing my
path? No. I am, like you, a woman who was given the painful
blessing of being born into a body that was at odds with my
gender. But *because* I am that woman I seek to create an
inclusive community of trans-persons. I would hope that most
folks here would be seeking the same thing.
In sisterly spirit;
Adrienne
Adrienne J. Davis--caramel colored, dredloked, power-femme
http://www.igc.apc.org/ajdavis/
***********************************************
Would you be saved if you were brave and just tried harder?
<Shawn Colvin--If I were brave>
>
>
> Y
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Rosalind Hengeveld
In article <19970708052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, were...@aol.com
(Werewomon) wrote:
> Great suggestion, but will someone with a little more computer savvy
> PLEASE convince AOL this group [alt.support.srs] exists?
I'm doing that regularly by sending so-called booster newgroup messages. The
latest one was June 28, 1997 with message-id <5p2vur$sk1$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>.
You may want to pass that information to AOL (the only thing that will
impress *some* ISPs is a user asking to add a group).
Strange, by the way, that AOL doesn't carry alt.support.srs but -- witness a
post of yours there -- does seem to carry the brand new Dutch TS newsgroup
nl.support.transseksueel. (I'm happy with the latter, sure.)
--
Rosalind Hengeveld
Newsgroup careprovider and retromoderator, alt.support.srs
Yasmiin S. Davis
Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
>
> Yasmiin S. Davis wrote:
>
> > Well I have watched this board for a while and now I have a
> > question --
> > where is a board that supports TS's -- not CD and not TV at
> > least those
> > that don't live as women.
> Where do you think you *are*? THIS is our forum sister. Yes, we
> are women and most truly honest crossdressers will admit that
> they are *not* women--but dress up in women's clothing.
Well see the comment below about an email sent to me by a CD. And again
I don't
have an issue with CDs -- as long as they don't go so far as to say how
much they understand and identify with my life, and that they always
dress up in public on Holloween -- we are all women together. Say you
respect me -- not that puting on a dress once in a while make you
understand my life -- or and other woman's fro that matter.
However,
> their presence here doesn't make this any less *your* or my
> forum. For the entire time I've been part of this group this
> debate has raged on.
>
> I realize that crossdressers and transvestites might, to the
> represent *precisely* what you so truly and rightly wish *not* to
> be perceived as--a man in a dress. But *you* know the truth of
> your own life. If someone perceives you to be that which you're
> not correct them.
>
> No one in this newsgroup has the power to make it 'not yours'
> unless you first consent to relinquish that power. If you want
> *separatist* space for trans-women then you should make that
> clear at the outset.
That was the question -- not was this board appropriate -- it says
clearly that it is transgendered and with that I have no problem.
I, for one, do not want this space to be a
> separatist transwomen space. This is *our* space. FTM's, MTF's,
> TV's, CD's, TS's--all of us who are gender different need
> someplace to be able to go.
again that is all fine I have no problem -- but I would also like a
space whose purpose is support to those living as their gender -- and
that is not to imply SRS as I know TVs who live full time as women quite
successfully. Now perhaps that is such a small population that it is
in-significant and could not support sufficient interest. However, my
comments are in no way meant to detract from this group or its broader
scope.
>
> Making statements about balding men masturbating in closets
> *doesn't* create such an environment.
Well you are right -- It was an inappropriate comment -- a result of
frustration at being emailed a picture of a harry flat cheasted
individual in panties and bra asking to meet me i.e. date me. I am a
Lesbian ( and I am broad enough in my definition of that to include a
TS living as a woman)-- and feed back from another board indicates that
consensus in the lesbian community has evolved to the point where I can
be accepted as such by them. So I am sorry for the comment -- an out
burst of inappropriate frustration at an inappropriate email made to
me, but if I should ever mess with a man again it won't be one in
panties and a bra and again that is not an attach on CDs.
I'm not saying 'make nice'
> with everyone here. There is room for and I enjoy this group
> most when there are real and substantial issues being
> discussed--from a variety of perspectives. But crossdressers
> need support as much as transexual women do.
I agree -- but many of the issues of living full time as a woman are
quite different. And to make my self clear -- making my self look like
a woman isn't one of them -- I am and look like one weather I like it or
not. And this has been the case since birth -- I looked like a little
girl too -- and my peers never let me forget it.
Is cross dressing my
> path? No. I am, like you, a woman who was given the painful
> blessing of being born into a body that was at odds with my
> gender.
Well I would have been fine if I had gone through with my child hood
plan to cut off the tiny offending appendage -- I had even figured out
how to do the testies -- ( I will not provide that information here or I
will hear of some poor child who tries it). -- but in the end that and
my plot to steal my mother birth control pills both ended when I
chickened out. ( Yes I am an XXY -- but that information never came
into my possession till my late teens -- in the course of the court
action that recreated my birth certificate with a sex more appropriate
to my gender) However, I still must say that for the most part the
medical community has treated me as a TS -- even if the government did
pay for those many lovely vivisection experiments they performed on
me--- ( SRS surgeries #1- #10 -- 3 vaginalplasties a couple of urinary
tract rebuilds -- a few repairs of the repairs -- oh my God she has an
infection -- blood poising -- she can't walk-- and were are running out
of morphine its time to cut her up again operations -- an a body that
looks like a contour farm from the skin graft donor sites -- I had a
really nice tattoo put over them -- and boobs -- now those were real
neat.)
Here I have to pick on you a bit -- in one sentence you state CDs need
support -- but in the next you quickly distance your self -- i.e. of
course I am not one. How are we to deal with this issue -- seems even
you want to be identified as something more specific than TG. And
please this is not an attack -- just a question.
But *because* I am that woman I seek to create an
> inclusive community of trans-persons. I would hope that most
> folks here would be seeking the same thing.
A laudable goal -- I do not seek to detract from that in any way.
Well -- I guess I will really get toasted fro this -- but it is well
intentioned.
Yasmiin
Roxie Lynn Greer
> > Well I have watched this board for a while and now I have a
> > question --
> > where is a board that supports TS's -- not CD and not TV at
> > least those
> > that don't live as women.
I'm not sure who wrote this section, and it's not important. What is
important is the question of support. Where is support?
We don't live in fairytales. If you wanted support for a chemical
dependancy you could find lots of support. If you help for transsexual
issues, it's much more difficult to find. That's the reality of the world
in which we live. If you don't have the support you need, then -you- are
responsible for doing something about that. Internet offers a great deal
of support, even if you have to weed through the things that don't apply to
you. If you were an alt.abuse.whatever news group, there too you would
find that the issues varry from person to person and you'd have to filter
though the posts to find what applies to you and what's important to you.
The moment one has to resort, as was done in this post above, to running
down people with different issues using the poorest of taste, then that
person not only has their own issues to deal with concerning being
transsexual, but also the prejudice so clearly showing in their posting
about those with different issues.
Support is found in many places; therapy, newsgroups, friends or even
churches. Take what you need and leave the rest - someone else will be
able to use what you can not use. I transitioned in an area of the country
where support was non-existant. I used internet for support, and got
information from their and from clinics, and educated my doctors, who
provide my support locally.
In short spend less energy being nasty to others with different issues, and
spend more time filting through the pile of support until you find what
applies to you.
Roxie
Deirdre Clausen
In article <19970708212...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, lisa...@aol.com (Lisanne A) wrote:
>Hi AOL sufferers
>
>n article <19970708052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
>were...@aol.com (Werewomon) writes:
>
>>>Great suggestion, but will someone with a little more computer savvy
>>
>Amanda Jaye writes
>
>>Trying kiddo. But, AOL -is- AOL.........<sigh>
>
>Hey, people, what do we expect from a conmpany that doesnt load NG's
>quickly, doesn't delete read items, loses our mail, crashes every other
>day (at least here in New York it goes like that) I could go on. But what
>the hey, I'm too lazy to find another service.
>
>Lots of love
>Lisanne
>
>"There are two groups of people in this world, those who put people into two
> groups, and those who don't.- MARK TWAIN
>
>
Don't they charge an hourly connection fee as well?
Starchild0
Rosalind wrote:
>I'm doing that regularly by sending so-called booster newgroup
>messages. The latest one was June 28, 1997 with message-id
><5p2vur$sk1$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>. You may want to pass that >information
to AOL (the only thing that will impress *some* ISPs
>is a user asking to add a group).
I've asked AOL repeatedly to carry alt.support.srs. I will pass on this
information to them too. Thanks.
RosePress
>I'm doing that regularly by sending so-called booster newgroup messages.
The
>latest one was June 28, 1997 with message-id
><5p2vur$sk1$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>.
>You may want to pass that information to AOL (the only thing that will
>impress *some* ISPs is a user asking to add a group).
Dear Rosalind --
I've asked them about five times. Those wretched people!
Hugs -- Rose
Practice safe philosophy. Use conundrums.
Werewomon
Thanks, Ros, I've already subscribed to the dutch group, the same night I
posted this. It'll take a lot of reading, but I'll get there. Didn't we
all?
Lisanne A
Hi Deirdre
First, I want to apologize for misspelling your name on several
postings. (I'll definitely be more careful :-) ) Secondly, as an example
of the imcompetent service at AOL, I only got this today (Or is it that
they have been reading this thread, and the gods are not amused <vbg>)
Third AOL has been unlimited service for about six months now, which still
doesn't excuse their bugs and ommissions) Wonder where all the money
they're making goes. Hmmmm, heard Steve Case (AOL Pres) got a very nice
Louis XIV desk recently.
Lots of Love
AmandaJaye
In article <5q0dp5$q...@winter.erols.com>, deir...@killspam.erols.com
(Deirdre Clausen) writes:
>Don't they charge an hourly connection fee as well?
Well yeah, but unless all you do is a quick flash session for mail their
unlimited plan is prob'ly better. Between me, on the never ending search
for kewl web sites, graphics and software and Katt's mission to find all
that is kinky, we log around 150 hours a month. I just couldn't handle
$4.95 per hour at that rate.
AJ - Mad Blonde of the East Bay
http://members.aol.com/amandajaye/
Technology, if sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic.
Stefani137
I have AOL, and no, they do not charge hourly connection fees, $19.95 a
month for unlimited use, and I personnally never see it go down more than
once a month for 30 or 40 minutes, which is less than the local phone
company's service goes down. I personally agree about the newsgroups,
since a year ago I was told they were going to start allowing us to use
mail programs like Netscape and Pluck-it, and we still can't. Oh well,
nothing is perfect.
Lisanne A
Hi Amanda
You wrote
>Well yeah, but unless all you do is a quick flash session for mail their
>unlimited plan is prob'ly better. Between me, on the never ending search
>for kewl web sites, graphics and software and Katt's mission to find all
>that is kinky, we log around 150 hours a month. I just couldn't handle
>$4.95 per hour at that rate.
Do they still offer that plan? Who would want it. At 4.95 an hour,
5 hours would cost more than than their unlimited rate.
Curious
AmandaJaye
In article <19970712215...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lisa...@aol.com (Lisanne A) writes:
> Do they still offer that plan? Who would want it. At 4.95 an hour,
>5 hours would cost more than than their unlimited rate.
>
Oh yeah, 'bout the only good thing I could see about their hourly rate is
that they'd quit bugging me about how long I'd been logged on!<smirk>
AJ
Lisanne A
Hi Amanda
You have been online for 2467 minutes so far. Please get off the line
You are eating up our profit margins.
Steve Case
I actually expect them to start begging me to get off line one of these
days<g>
(But Mr. Case, you said it was an unlimited plan)
Lots of Love
Lisanne A
Hi Stefani
You wrote
You're lucky. AOL goes down on me at least once a week (But I am in
Brooklyn, NY where we have billions of AOL clients) On the other hand, we
have at least five local numbers to choose from (and I bet all of them go
down at least once a week.)
Still, I'm too lazy to quit.
AmandaJaye
In article <19970713231...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lisa...@aol.com (Lisanne A) writes:
Hey Lisanne,
> You have been online for 2467 minutes so far. Please get off the line
>You are eating up our profit margins.
Oh, I'm not that bad now! I think the longest single session was when I
was overhauling my web site. I was creating with Front Page, uploading
with AOLPress and verifying with the -real- MS Explorer. I was -well- into
my 5th warning before I finished. 'Bout 230 minutes worth.<g>
BUT, it's all their fault, if had AOL made it easy to publish web pages, I
wouldn't have taken nearly so long.
>Steve Case
>
>I actually expect them to start begging me to get off line one of these
>days<g>
>(But Mr. Case, you said it was an unlimited plan)
They haven't reduced them selves to begging, but they sure do NAG a lot!
:>
Hugs,
AJ
Stefani137
I don't mind the "you have been online 45 minutes" thing, but the "you
have been idle" thing that kicks you off pisses me off because when I am
using Netscape, you don't know it is there and you lose connection. at
least the 45 minute warning automatically warns you.
Julia
Deirdre Clausen wrote:
> >
> >Hey, people, what do we expect from a conmpany that doesnt load NG's
> >quickly, doesn't delete read items, loses our mail, crashes every other
> >day (at least here in New York it goes like that) I could go on. But what
> >the hey, I'm too lazy to find another service.
> >
> >Lots of love
> >Lisanne
> Don't they charge an hourly connection fee as well?
Deirdre,
It's worse than that. Read your AOL agreement. They give themselves
the right to read and censor your incoming and outgoing e-mail. Big
brother *is* watching.
Lisanne,
You might want to consider Earthlink. Just tell them you were referred
by me and I get a free month. :)
Julia
(used to live in NY)
Lisanne A
Hi Julia
>You might want to consider Earthlink. Just tell them you were referred
>by me and I get a free month. :)
>Julia
>(used to live in NY)
I chose AOL only because everyone else wants me to get a credit card
(AOL is quite happy pilfering my checking account) Also, why has everyone
left NY. (I hardly have any friends left)
Lots of Love
Lisanne
"There are two groups of people in this world,.there's me, and then there is everybody else"
bur...@geocities.com
> We don't live in fairytales. If you wanted support for a chemical
> dependancy you could find lots of support.
I have an Internet addiction. This is not a joke, my addiction to the
net has screwed a big part of my life. Can't find any help either.
Dzeezas!
> If you help for transsexual issues, it's much more difficult to find.
We had a therapist here for three months and she became totally burnt
out. Our issue is too big for the professionals to handle.
> If you don't have the support you need, then -you- are
> responsible for doing something about that.
Yep, nobody's gonna become your mommy.
> prejudice so clearly showing in their posting
> about those with different issues.
TV/CD/TG people do have their own problems, but they are toy problems
compared to the problems TS face. This is not to say their problems are
insignificant.
> Support is found in many places; therapy, newsgroups, friends or even
> churches.
Churches can be dangerous, even deadly. I would not go to the church for
support.
Luv, Stacy
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
bur...@geocities.com
> Face the fact that she was probably unqualified
She was NT: Not Tough enough. It takes its toll, we have a TS prostitute
here, TSs from all walks of life.
> > TV/CD/TG people do have their own problems, but they are toy problems
> > compared to the problems TS face. This is not to say their problems are
> > insignificant.
> That is a complete load of crap and you show extreme disregard for
> yourself that you say it at all.
Nope. They usually survive it, the transsexuals have a whopping suicide
rate. Therefore it is safe to assume that the TS life is tougher.
Psychodad
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:03:10 -0600, bur...@geocities.com
yeah, whatever, care to revela you source for TG vd TS suicide rate statistics?
Vlad.
Laura Blake
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:28:21 -0600, bur...@geocities.com wrote:
>TV/CD/TG people do have their own problems, but they are toy problems
>compared to the problems TS face.
Tell that to the transgenderist who after 6 years of crossliving is arrested
on mistaken identity, put into a men's holding cell, gang raped, and is now
dying of AIDS!
There are plenty serious problems that cut across this whole peerage... and
outright stupidity like you posted above is the primary reason these things
are not being discussed and dealt with.
-----
Laura Blake
Visit the TransEqual website at:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/lblake
-----
Roxie Lynn Greer
Andrea Bennett <arb...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<33D61EC5...@mindspring.com>...
> Transgendered people of all stripes face serious difficulties with the
> denial of basic freedoms and social and legal protection. Debate about
> whether one subset has it tougher than another is meaningless and
> time-wasting.
>
> -- Andrea Bennett
Like it or not, we move upstream against the tide of the majority. So too
we go forward against old laws. There is a certain stigma that accompanies
being gender different. Division only helps stagnate these issues, so I
agree with Andrea's point above.
When we embark on a gender different path, we take certain risks. These
risks are part of the reality in which we live. As long as they remain so
too shall sad stories of broken lives. We offer each other comfort, when
we are not fighting amoung ourselves - sadly, we too bring things with us
that stigmatize otheres who are gender different. If we ever learn to
love, and begin to see despite the vast differences between each of us, we
share a common circumstance, then we will have made the first step towards
changing our futures.
Roxie
Lisanne A
Hi Stacy
>Nope. They usually survive it, the transsexuals have a whopping suicide
>rate. Therefore it is safe to assume that the TS life is tougher.
Problem is, there's no way of actually proving that. Show me studies
that have been done comparing the suicide rates among TG's with that of
TS's and you may have a point. Fact is, TG's are rarely documented, they
are not statistically classified, they are not originized. If would be
extremely difficult to get a representive sample of the TG community.
Lots of love
Lisanne
lisa...@aol.com
lis...@innocent.com
"There are two groups of people in this world. There's me, and then there is everybody else"<giggle>
Marilyn Hays
Complaining about divisiveness is exactly what LB was doing. The passage
she objected to is "TV/CD/TG people do have their own problems, but they
are toy problems compared to the problems TS face." This is complete crap.
What problems does a TS face that a TG does not?
Which was more divisive: denigrating most of the community by calling
their problems "toy" or calling someone on it?
The only way to stop bigotry - homophobia, racism, elitism, sexism or
whatever - is to always call the bigot to task for their words!
Marilyn
--
biology<>destiny
Specialization is for insects - RAH
mlh...@ga.unc.edu
m...@dim.com
>Transgendered people of all stripes face serious difficulties with the
>denial of basic freedoms and social and legal protection. Debate about
>whether one subset has it tougher than another is meaningless and
>time-wasting.
First, let me say that I agree with the above. Who has it 'tougher'
is not of importance. Especially when it comes to translating group
characteristics down to individuals. Maybe on the average one group
has it tougher, but it tells us nothing about how tough it is for any
individual. Nor does it tell us why.
But if who has it tougher is important, I would say the millions of
homeless and starving people in Bangladesh have it a hell of a lot
tougher than anyone here.
----
But on the issue of suicides. Yes, it does seem that TS's commit more
suicides as a group. Or at least, the Boulton & Park study hints at
this with the following questions...
- Have you ever seriously contemplated suicide? - TV - 27.7%, TG -
42.3%, TS - 69.6%
- Have you ever attempted suicide? - TV - 5.4%, TG - 15.4%, TS -
33.3%.
But does this increased suicide rate reflect a toughness of life path?
Or does it reflect something else? I am uncertain.
Hugs, Marla
************************************************
* Marla Louise
* EMail: m...@dim.com
* Homepage: http://www.dimensional.com/~mb/
************************************************
bur...@geocities.com
> Tell that to the transgenderist who after 6 years of crossliving is arrested
> on mistaken identity, put into a men's holding cell, gang raped, and is now
> dying of AIDS!
The law is unfair, but it is the same for all. What I am saying is that
it can happen to anybody. Fascism is always fascism. Those jailers were
fucking stupid if they put her in the same cell with those wolves and it
breaks basic human rights. However, we could spend the whole day picking
TG horror stories, but it does nothing to prove your point.
> There are plenty serious problems that cut across this whole peerage...
I do agree... and there is racial hatred, hatred against women,
homophobia, you name it.
> outright stupidity like you posted above is the primary reason these things
> are not being discussed and dealt with.
I might be stupid, I accept that, but I believe the more people survive
the better. Not really a radical idea. Transsexuals being driven out to
the street or killing themselves is a concrete, solid problem.
Transsexuals are the pioneers and what is designed to help transsexuals
will eventually trickle down to the transgender folks as well.
If some jailer decides he can violate basic human rights he is most
likely to do it with anyone.
dani richard
Psychodad wrote:
<snip>
, whatever, care to revela you source for TG vd TS suicide rate
statistics?
>
> Vlad.
Should you wish furter information (in a short article) I would suggest
you see:
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/los.gatos.weekly-times/12.18.96/lg.cover.html
This article is about Dr. Mildred Brown's book "True Selves". She has
some numbers.
Dani
Julia
Marilyn Hays wrote:
: What problems does a TS face that a TG does not?
Money for surgery, perhaps? Money for the necessary therapy sessions to
get approved for SRS. Money for complete (at miminum facial)
electrolysis. Transitioning full-time and the ramifications as such.
Some TGs and TSs continue to work daytime as male, then switch to female
after work and this works for them. So consequently these people do not
face the same problems as those who do transition full-time.
As far as the TG philosophy vs. TS philosophy goes, let's leave sleeping
dogs lay.
All TS are TG but not all TG are TS. As to which group has it tougher
than the other, I think that it depends upon the individual, but to
quote Dennis Miller, "I could be wrong."
Julia
Lisanne A
Hi Stacy
Lets stop trying to establish a hiearchy here. It is totally
unproductive and divisive.
Lisanne A
Hi Julie
You have the problems of researchers pretty well understood
>As you say, it's almost impossible to do reliable studies of t* people,
>since so many of them are 'underground'. Studies that are done on t*s
>that rely on the net capture one subset, studies that rely on support
>groups another, studies that use sex workers still another. Sometimes
>these groups overlap, but there are still a lot of tv's, tg's and ts's
>that are invisible to the wider world.
>
>For that, and other reasons I pay little attention to survey's of t*
>behaviour or social status, except when the studies are used by the media
>as definitive analyses. Then I get kind of upset.
I invite the world of document makers to find me, I'm out here, and
there are offical records that do indeed identify me as Lisanne Anderson
(see i have no secrets) but they are in places that one does not look
normally for records of transgendered people. I weill not be contacted by
researchers, noon ein the research community knowsmof my exisence. If
there was a census of transgendered people I would not be counted.
>As for who suffers most, as in all human life suffering is a relative
>thing and it's ridiculous to try to compare one life with anotherin this
>way. Does a rich caucasian schizophrenic suffer more or less than a poor
>asian victim of child-abuse? No, I'm not looking for an answer, because
>the question is meaningless.
>
>This is a silly thread.
>
I agree with everything but the idea that this is a silly thread. i
don't like the original premise, but it gave us a chance to delineate the
flaws in the argument.
Lotsof Love
mata...@seta.fi
> But if who has it tougher is important, I would say the millions of
> homeless and starving people in Bangladesh have it a hell of a lot
> tougher than anyone here.
Cannot be compared, really. I was alone in an emergency situation in the
Arctic once (The American Survival Guide 12/95) and the hell it was tough
to survive it, but my senses were sharp and I had a definite will to
survive it.
In the beginning of the process of coming out once and for all, I had
lost all my will to live.
So, can't say which is tougher, Bangladesh is tough and is getting
tougher by the day, yet it does not lead in the suicide statistics,
Hungary, Finland and Japan do, three industrial countries.
> - Have you ever seriously contemplated suicide? - TV - 27.7%, TG -
> 42.3%, TS - 69.6%
Yes.
> - Have you ever attempted suicide? - TV - 5.4%, TG - 15.4%, TS -
> 33.3%.
Yes. 1979 - I tried to electrocute myself. I was just a kid, I was told
that all the angels in the heaven were wearing what appeared to be a
feminine garb, all the time. Wanted to join them.
1989 - I jumped in front of a car. He reacted faster than I thought.
Just a few bruises.
1995 - I poisoned myself and woke up in the emergency room.
Caitlyn M. Martin
Marla posted:
> ----
>
> But on the issue of suicides. Yes, it does seem that TS's commit more
> suicides as a group. Or at least, the Boulton & Park study hints at
> this with the following questions...
>
> - Have you ever seriously contemplated suicide? - TV - 27.7%, TG -
> 42.3%, TS - 69.6%
>
> - Have you ever attempted suicide? - TV - 5.4%, TG - 15.4%, TS -
> 33.3%.
>
> But does this increased suicide rate reflect a toughness of life path?
Or does it reflect something else? I am uncertain.
I can never speak for anyone else. I only speak for myself.
As my life has begun to finally come together, thanks to a marvelously
smooth transition, I am finally dealing with some of the buried bits of my
past. Memories have resurfaced, which my therapist tells me is extremely
healthy, even though it usually feels lousy.
I now remember three suicide attempts, two of which came damned close to
succeeding. Two were in 1989, one in 1991. The first two were as a result
of a trauma—specifically an assault (both physical and sexual), and the
fact that I blamed myself and my transsexual feelings rather than my
attacker. My self-esteem hit zero. I thought I had absolutely no worth as
a human being. I was, by the time of the second attempt, a drug addict as
well. My life was hell and simply didn't seem worth living. All I wanted
was to end my pain.
Could that have happened to a TV or TG? Yes, it sure could have done. The
main difference though came from my third attempt, two years later.
First, for those of you who've been here the last 5 months, I'd better
correct the posts I made in March and April. I wrote then that after my
assault, and after 6 months of heavy drug and alcohol use that followed, I
went back into boy mode and stayed there for 8 years. I wrote that "Kate"
was dead. Well, as my memories are coming back and gaps are being filled
in, I know that simply isn't true.
I wasn't in boy mode when I tried to end it in 1991. I had decided that I
couldn't live as male any more, and had already learned through my 1989
assault that living as a woman was going to do nothing but hurt and kill
me. I decided that it was futile to try to continue to go on the way I was
at that time, and was damn well not going to leave this life as a man.
Would a TV or TG likely feel such a strong sense of wrongness about their
gender? I doubt it, at least in most cases.
This is not an invalidation of anyone's life path, Marla, just a reflection
of my own feelings.
Take care,
Kate
m...@dim.com
On 30 Jul 97 03:24:07 GMT, "Caitlyn M. Martin" <cmm...@ibm.net>
wrote:
>This is not an invalidation of anyone's life path, Marla, just a reflection
>of my own feelings.
Kate, thank you :-)
m...@dim.com
On 30 Jul 1997 14:56:10 GMT, k'd <kco...@gte.net> wrote:
>These statistics are more or less meaningless. Attempting to infer any
>results rests on the assumption that the classifications are accurate --
>were the classifications inaccurate than the results are confounded by
>potential dissatisfaction in said classifications. Inferences are
>further confounded by individual phenominological differences, which are
>not measured in the above listings.
>
>Basing any inference on an assumed failure model will certainly have
>limited use, if any.
To me, studies and statistics like I quoted are hints, not proofs.
For no matter what problems a study may have (the B&P study has
problems but it is the best I've ever seen), such data is better than
no data. One must just take it with a grain of salt.
Kristin Rachael Hayward
In article <33e29e53...@news.dimensional.com> m...@dim.com writes:
:On 30 Jul 1997 14:56:10 GMT, k'd <kco...@gte.net> wrote:
:
:>These statistics are more or less meaningless. Attempting to infer any
:>results rests on the assumption that the classifications are accurate --
:>were the classifications inaccurate than the results are confounded by
:>potential dissatisfaction in said classifications. Inferences are
:>further confounded by individual phenominological differences, which are
:>not measured in the above listings.
:>
:>Basing any inference on an assumed failure model will certainly have
:>limited use, if any.
:
:To me, studies and statistics like I quoted are hints, not proofs.
:For no matter what problems a study may have (the B&P study has
:problems but it is the best I've ever seen), such data is better than
:no data. One must just take it with a grain of salt.
:
Marla (and others),
I have refrained from joining this little debate because the core
issue is too close to my mental illness. However, the statement that
"such data is better than no data" is, while representative of the
thinking of most people, completely invalid and easily demolished if one
has an iota of training in statistics.
Sadly I have ... sadly because I consider my PhD to be 3 wasted years,
as it simply formalized what I knew already: "if it looks like a duck
and walks like a duck, it probably isn't."
So, for those with short memories:
Subject: Re: Suicide and other mortality rates
From: hay...@cs.uchicago.edu (Hayward)
Date: 1996/11/07
Message-Id: <E0IFF...@midway.uchicago.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.support.transgendered
[More Headers]
In article <32817D...@WOW.COM> Ed Cavanaugh <EzCAV...@WOW.COM> writes:
:Rosalind Hengeveld wrote:
:>
:>
:> Suicide 13
:> Cancer 7
:> Heart failure 6
:> Unknown causes 4
:> AIDS 3
:> Lung disease 2
:> Drowning 2
:> Pancreatitis 1
:> Murder 1
:> -- +
:> Total 39 out of 816
:>
:> Thirteen suicides out of 816 patients is about 1,5%. A few of the
:> other deaths, such as the drownings -- one single accident with
:> Rosalind Hengeveld------------------------------------
:I have my own thought on the matter. The computer people refer to
:it as GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out). Not that people are "garbage"
:but all of us undergoing the process in any stage are already deeply
:troubled. Most of us had few if any friends before starting, and since
Although I don't like to admit this, my PhD minor field is statistics.
Not really something to be proud of ... but the study of statistics
does give one a heathly disregard for quantifiable data. Basically,
anything that can be presented in a table or x matrix is probably
wrong -- simply because not enough variables have been included.
Case in point; six weeks ago I had my little "breakdown." If I had
been "sucessful," I would be in line 1 -- but, would it have been
because I was TS or would it have been for another reason? Certainly, I
am TS, and I would have been dead of suicide, but the motivating
factor was not related to being TS. The lack of the multidimensional
aspects to the table greatly weaken its validity.
Kristin
Kristin Rachael Hayward, PhD
Director of Administrative Information Systems and Business Services
University of Maine
http://www.umeais.maine.edu/~hayward
Kristin Rachael Hayward
bur...@geocities.com
> Most of the stressors related to being TS are
> due to unaccepting families which demand that we appear as our
> birth sex and give up on this silly sex change business.
I think there are many factors. Mine, a close call, wass a soup of
different reasons: A marriage based on one-sided love (me) comes
crashing to a divorce, I come out and face the transphobia of the people,
I get kicked out of my job, the cult leaders kick me out of the cult
trying to make me commit suicide. I go and try to get my parents to help
me, I stay at their house and they force a hair-cut on me. I find out
that I am searched by the police and the credit card company. I take my
car, vanish at the night. I leave my car, never entering it again. That
night I was thinking about life and death. I was too scared to commit
suicide that night. I am afraid of dying. That saved me.
I am not asking for sympathy points, but when I go to places like
KaffeHaus, this is more like a typical story: People kick your butt, you
must appear in the court, you are out of money, you cannot complete your
transitioning ever, the family hates you, your boss fires you, you start
drinking too much.
Transitioning is like a formula with too many unknowns that can ruin
everything.
> If anything is the cause of these suicides it is transphobia from
> the non-trangendered population.
Absolutely. Plus your screwy pre-transitioning life.
Luv, Stacy
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3573/transsexual.html
bur...@geocities.com
> Don't be an ass - it did everything to prove her point. TG and pre-op
> TS would be treated exactly the same in the above context. Posties get
> preference, but may get beat by women instead of men in the above... at
> least probably not getting AIDS from the deal.
Yeah, life is tough. But does this prove anything? It is just one
isolated case without any significance. This is my point.
> You must be kidding - or just trolling for flames.
I am not trolling for flames. And I am not kidding either. I thought we
can talk like adults do, but perhaps I am mistaken.
I believe, that in this twisted world, there is a small, tiny chance for
TS to be eventually accepted by the most rational of peoples. I don't
see this happening with the TG/CD folks (which in fact makes their burden
tougher, in this regard). Therefore I see that if people first accept us
transsexuals, they will learn to accept the others also. It is not me,
it is the people.
> Now why do you think the reported suicide rate is higher for TSs? It
> wasn't what they thought it would be, perhaps?
Could be. I am a person, like most of us, with multiple problems,
transsexualism being one of the most prominent. I see that the life
before coming to the realization of the identity either has lead to
suicides directly or causes problems which later cause the person to
crash. But this is the case with the TGs also. I see that the
transitioning is too much for many of us, the psychoinvestigations, being
out of money, work, being laughed at you name it. And transitioning is
the last straw for us, the last hope.
I heard a therapist say "It would be nice to see a TS that is not
completely screwed-up". Well, I am messed-up, sorry for starting to
argue, I am kinder than that usually. Actually I screwed up my life
pre-transition so badly that there was little to rescue when I started my
transitioning.
> > If some jailer decides he can violate basic human rights he is most
> > likely to do it with anyone.
>
> That was her point.
Yes, but it has no statistical significance, this is my point.
bur...@geocities.com
> ALL of them are women in men's prisons and they all have horror stories to
> tell.
> Want another case?
Pretty convincing I must say. Pretty much a violation of human rights as
well. Hell with the whales, save humanity!
> How about the TG in a California prison who was chased down by a group of
> inmates on a regular basis, and raped by them... the first one to fuck her got
> to pull out one of her teeth with a sharpened spoon. The inmates were wearing
> her teeth around their necks on sewing thread! Wanna tell me the guards
> didn't know about that one?
That is pretty terrible. That is sujecting an inmate to torture. That is
against all human rights.
> You, my dear, are utterly clueless.
And why are you telling this all to me? Can you tell about your efforts
in helping these people? I am interested.
> But don't feel too bad, being deaf, dumb and blind about the problems of your
> peers is a transsexual trademark; one they wear with great pride.
Too sad. Were you a little bit politically correct, people would
actually listen to what you are saying, but spouting all that insulting
shit cancels your efforts for the prisoners. You act like a bigot. I'm
sorry if the prisoners' rights are in hands of a person like you.
> Get a fucking clue! It is not "some jailer".... the "if you have a penis you
> go to a men's prison" rule is STANDARD POLICY,
OK, it is a standard policy to violate human rights in American prisons.
> and even more important is the
> little matter that this standard policy was explicitly recommended by GENDER
> CLINICS... you know, the people helping you with your transsexualism.
Haha... that is nasty. Now, I am burning with eagerness... what have you
done to make this situation known except for publishing it on our
secluded newsgroup? If you have a web URL to all these cases, I would
promote it.
> Your point is that you have no regard for your own peers; plain and simple.
I try to and if you cooperate and stop spouting that malicious shit, I'll
show you how.
m...@dim.com
>I have refrained from joining this little debate because the core
>issue is too close to my mental illness. However, the statement that
>"such data is better than no data" is, while representative of the
>thinking of most people, completely invalid and easily demolished if one
>has an iota of training in statistics.
"What are the facts? Again and again and again, what - what are the
facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what
"the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors
think, nevermind the unguessable "verdict of history" - what are the
facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an
unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!" - R.A.
Heinlein
bur...@geocities.com
> Your point is that you have no regard for your own peers; plain and simple.
You are a rude fuck, but still you have a valid point. The torture in
prisons is one of the most shocking violations of the basic human rights
on this century in the "civilized world". I put a link to the jail page
from my main web page http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3573/
Luv, Stacy
Laura Blake
On Sun, 03 Aug 1997 08:01:20 -0600, bur...@geocities.com wrote:
>> You, my dear, are utterly clueless.
>And why are you telling this all to me?
I am telling you this because you came into this group, screeching about how
transsexuals should be taken care of first, and claiming that the problems of
the transgendered were inconsequential.
To be perfectly clear: You come on like a bigotted jackass, and I'm calling
you on it.
>> Your point is that you have no regard for your own peers; plain and simple.
>
>I try to and if you cooperate and stop spouting that malicious shit, I'll
>show you how.
Honey... it's only the truth about you.
When you stop dumping on your own peers, and publish an apology to them all,
here, publicly... I'll be more than pleased to get off your case.
Angi & Ian Main
On Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:34:11 GMT, lbl...@sympatico.ca (Laura Blake)
wrote:
>Get a fucking clue! It is not "some jailer".... the "if you have a penis you
>go to a men's prison" rule is STANDARD POLICY, and even more important is the
>little matter that this standard policy was explicitly recommended by GENDER
>CLINICS... you know, the people helping you with your transsexualism.
I can't speak for the U.S. but in the U.K. I believe that there have
been cases of post-op. trans-sexuals being sent to male prisons. It
has nothing to do with having or not having a penis...instead it has
to do with having a male birth certificate. In the U.K. trans-sexuals
are still legally male because the ignorant beaurocrats won't allow
the birth certificate to be changed to female.
Karen
bur...@geocities.com
> I am telling you this because you came into this group, screeching about how
> transsexuals should be taken care of first, and claiming that the problems of
> the transgendered were inconsequential.
I admit that the problems of the transgendered individuals can be as
severe as the problems with transsexuals in what comes to the public
treatment. That is just common sense. I admit that I did not know the
violations of human rights were that severe.
> To be perfectly clear: You come on like a bigotted jackass, and I'm calling
> you on it.
I am glad that you are not a bigoted jackass.
> Honey... it's only the truth about you.
The "truth" about me is off-topic in this newsgroup. Why not make a group
called alt.flame.transsexuals.stacy ?
> When you stop dumping on your own peers, and publish an apology to them all,
> here, publicly... I'll be more than pleased to get off your case.
Sorry, honey, do I hear you extorting me?
Luv, Stacy
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3573/transsexual.html
Lisanne A
Hi All
Since we are dicussing statistics, and I, at one time in my life made
my living from such, allow me to share a simple secret. Quoting Mark Twain
again, as is often my habit, I'm reminded of the line "There are three
kinds of lies. Lies, Dammed lies, and statistics." Given my experience, I
have found that this is generally true. For example, I worked with
planners for the 1990 census. i quit after a month because I found out
that they were telling supervisors to tell field workers to use any means
to get data. If one can't get data from the respondent, then ask
neighbors. if the neighbors were not forthcoming, ask the superindent if
it is an apartment building, or ask the mailman, or, failing all that,
take an educated guess. I have no idea what that guess was supposed to be
based on. They also set up a quota system for workers, they had to get a
certain amount of responses ina day. then, they devcided to pay the
workers on the basis of how many completed questionaires were returned.
since the questionaires were filled out by the enumerator, it was quite
easy for the enumerator to just make up information for all the missing
census forms. I objected strongly, and seeing that there was no way that I
could possibly impact a change in procedure, (I worked out of a area
office, there were hundreds of such offices throughout the country) I
quit. History shows that the 1990 census was a fiasco. The numbers
collected are a farce.
When I worked in transportation planning, there were times that we were
missing important data, due to equipment failure or human error. A
mathematical formula was worked out to correct these failures, we
determined that the results would therefore be 91 percent correct. 91
percent correct, with all the precautions and double data collecting we
did was not extremely accurate. But, in expectational terms, it was high
enough, considering the amount of data that we were dealing with.
Studies done by voluntary submission are even more faulty. For instance,
we did a mail-in study of drivers, where we asked commuting drivers to
fill out a simple questionaire and mail it back to us. we also, unknown to
the drivers, got the license plate numbers of every driver we gave the
questionaire to. Guess what, for some idiotic reason, drivers coming into
New York from Conneticut were less likely to fill out the questionaire
than drivers freom New York or New Jersey. Go figure. Skewed our database
somewhat, but in trusty statistical fashion, we merely assigned different
point values to each state's return.
I worked for people who gave a damn about what they were doing, and
were expert statisticians, but many studies are done by those whose
statisical backgrounds are not as extensive, especially when agencies do
an in-house study. In studies of transgendered issues, one must always be
aware that many T's are in fact undocumented. Many post-ops disapear into
the woodwork, the data becomes flawed because large numbers of people with
similar motivations who might submit similar data are not being counted.
These considerations are not often weighed into the results, so the
results become quite different than the realities. Subsequent studies may
use the results of an unweighed study in weighing their own studies,
skewing their data even more.
Lisanne
who learned statistics by osmosis.
spunky
On Sat Aug 02 20:29:23 EDT 1997, lbl...@sympatico.ca (Laura Blake) wrote:
>Kara has not bought into my views at all, and still challenges me on a regular
>basis... What she has done is to buy into HERSELF.
>How many of you can say that?
*I* can for one. And I did so long before I ever met the likes of *you*. :-(
Despite your insistence to the contrary, not everyone has SRS due to "societal
pressure" or because they are a "victim of upbringing".
FYI nearly all my friends would say stuff like "Why don't you just live like this
and not have the surgery? You're already a very attractive woman." Nobody encouraged
me to have SRS but me.
Also I felt uncomfortable with a male body and wished for a female body long
before I ever wanted to be a "woman". Not that any of this is any of your
business but I'm telling you anyway.
I did a lot of introspection and examined my motives completely before undergoing
transition and SRS. All without *any* help or insight from you. And I did just
fine. How about that?
spunky
*not* woman/male and damn proud of it.
--
For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
he...@anon.twwells.com -- for an automatically returned help message
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m...@dim.com
On 4 Aug 1997 15:54:57 GMT, lisa...@aol.com (Lisanne A) wrote:
>Quoting Mark Twain again, as is often my habit, I'm reminded of the line "There are three
> kinds of lies. Lies, Dammed lies, and statistics."
What do we mean by using statistic to lie. If we presume that
statistics gathered by a study represent absolute truth, I would agree
with you.
But does that mean we ignore statistics, throwing out the baby with
the bath water, or does it mean we understand it's limitations?
Let us presume that a study represents exactly what it says it is, say
the voluntary submissions of experiences and values of over 1000
transgendered individuals (which is what the B&P study is).
To me, something like the B&P study is an indicator of fact or a guide
post toward fact, not fact in and of itself.
If our search is toward truth and fact, it seems to me that we should
use all the guide post available.
For what do we have to find 'truth' if we reject something like the
B&P study? Personal experience?
But isn't personal experience even a more limited and flawed study?
It involves the personal experiences of one individual.
If personal experience of one individual has value, then summations of
personal experience like the B&P study must also have value.
So I recommend using studies like the B&P for what they are. The
summation of the personal experiences of 1000 transgendered
individuals.
Note, I like the B&P study over many others because of the nature,
size and breath of the selection process. This study was conducted
and monitored by a transgendered organization (Boulton & Park) trying
to get as wide of spectrum as possible. It did not limit itself to
one subgroup or to only those that seek medical help (which I think
really biases so many of the other studies).
To respond to Mister Twain, "One can lie with statistics, but only to
those that do not understand statistics."
Hugs, Marla
Kristin Rachael Hayward
In article <33e493ca...@news.dimensional.com> m...@dim.com writes:
:On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:13:19 GMT, Kristin Rachael Hayward
:<khay...@khayward.com> wrote:
:
:>I have refrained from joining this little debate because the core
:>issue is too close to my mental illness. However, the statement that
:>"such data is better than no data" is, while representative of the
:>thinking of most people, completely invalid and easily demolished if one
:>has an iota of training in statistics.
:
:"What are the facts? Again and again and again, what - what are the
:facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what
:"the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors
:think, nevermind the unguessable "verdict of history" - what are the
:facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an
:unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!" - R.A.
:Heinlein
That's all I am looking for, "the facts ma'am, just the facts."
Statistics too easily hide the facts.
Marilyn Hays
spunky <anon-...@anon.twwells.com> wrote in article
> Marilyn,
> I'm sorry that you saw my previous post as insensitive. It wasn't meant
to be.
> By breaking the law I was not referring to those who might be arrested by
some
> mistaken identity or because of self defense.
<sniped> good stuff about personal responsibility
> Yes I know that there are innocent people who get locked up by mistake.
> My previous post was not referring to them. I should have been more
clearer.
> Mea Culpa. I'm sorry for that. But as for the others I mentioned above,
no, I
> have no sympathy for them.
My sympathies lie with anyone sentenced to being raped. I can see that
yours do too. Thanks for saying so.
Marilyn
PS. the above comment carries one exception - convicted rapists - they're
on their own.
Lisanne A
Hi Marla
>But does that mean we ignore statistics, throwing out the baby with
>the bath water, or does it mean we understand it's limitations?
The point i was trying to make is that in order to ascertain the
usefulness of statistics, one has to examine the crteria for inclusion,
the gathering methods, and the allowance for error and deviation of
numeric data. Usually a statistical study will include such information in
it's original form of publication. However, this information may be
misleading or untrue. Studies that show raw data tables are usually more
reliable. Additionally, it gives other statisticians the oppitunity to
reevaluate the information, often coming to differing conclusions.
>For what do we have to find 'truth' if we reject something like the
>B&P study? Personal experience?
No, if we finsd fault with the study, and we are in a position t be
able to analyze the flawsand delineate them, and, additionally, sjhould we
be in a position of professional standing, we publish our criticism of the
report, and suggest modifications for those we seek to undertake a more
reliable study.
>Note, I like the B&P study over many others because of the nature,
>size and breath of the selection process. This study was conducted
>and monitored by a transgendered organization (Boulton & Park) trying
>to get as wide of spectrum as possible. It did not limit itself to
>one subgroup or to only those that seek medical help (which I think
>really biases so many of the other studies).
Not having seen the database reports I am not in a position to
authoritatively analyze the results for completeness, which in this type
of study is always a problem. It may well have been weighted properly, but
I can't be certain. Which was the point I was making. I don't recommend
totally throwing statistical reports away, (Hey, I still have a few
friends in that field, they need to eat too.)I just want to point out that
there is no certainty of accuracy in any study, unless one wishes to
undertake an extensive study of the gathering and analysis methods used.
That is an extensive project in itself.
>To respond to Mister Twain, "One can lie with statistics, but only to
>those that do not understand statistics."
No, one can lie with statistics, even to the experts. And
unfortunately, it does happen.
Big Hugs
Lisanne
lisa...@aol.com
lis...@innocent.com
"Listening is easy. Acting on what you hear is hard work"
m...@dim.com
On 6 Aug 1997 22:47:00 GMT, lisa...@aol.com (Lisanne A) wrote:
> The point i was trying to make is that in order to ascertain the
>usefulness of statistics, one has to examine the crteria for inclusion,
>the gathering methods, and the allowance for error and deviation of
>numeric data.
I think we are in agreement here. I'm pointing out the pros and you
the cons but we both see the other :-)
Basically, my rule of thumb is to take all such studies 'with a grain
of salt' <g>.
spunky
On Thu Aug 07 14:36:59 EDT 1997 lbl...@sympatico.ca (Laura Blake)
wrote:
>Nothing galls me more than some middle class puke dumping on their own
>less-fortunate peers.
Look Laura, I don't really give a rat's ass what you think of me but
don't accuse me of something I'm not.
I am not a "middle class puke" as you say in your multi-color
diatribes. FYI I am working class all the way and proud of it.
My father was a Postal worker who worked his butt off for the USPS
for very little compensation, He raised all of us to be honest
and fair in dealings with people, and I'm prouder of him than just
about anyone else. I worked for ten years to pay for what I have.
I was a member of both IBEW and CWA, and I will never,ever cross
a picket line, or shop at Wal Mart or Appletree. I patronize local
businesses over national franchises whenever possible. Some things
are more important to me than money.
I paid for my education *myself*, and my SRS *myself*. I'll be
paying off student loans most likely for the rest of my life.
These people had all the opportunities I had as well, some had more
opportunities than I did. But they *chose* not to follow them.
If you think I'm "dumping" on my peers, because I have no more
patience for those who steal from me, and lie to me, under the excuse
that they have a "disease" that makes them do it, then too bad.
You can all me a creep all you want, but reading your hateful crap
all the time, I just wonder who the real "creep" is.
spunky
Toni Russell
Laura Blake wrote:
>More than 2/3 of the transgender community suffer severe to total social
>disenfranchisement, solely as a result of coming out of the closet. They lose
>jobs, friends, family, homes and social supports. They are refused access to
Well, now I'm confused Laura. A few days ago you attempted to convince me
in an aggressive fashion that every single member of the transgender
community had a duty to out themselves for the betterment of the bigger
cause. You further seemed to not understand my statements that are
precisely summarized by your quote sentence above.
I guess I need you to summarize your feelings on this issue.
>I've said over and over, for several years, that this burning need felt by
>transsexuals to distance themselves from their own kind is the one thing
>holding our community back. Distancing ourselves from the larger realities
Distancing themselves at what point in the process though, and at what cost?
There are so many factors in an individuals life that direct this phenomenon
- that's why they are called individuals, and not a collective. You seem to
advocate a collective mentality for each and all. You run around screaming
"Resistance is Futile" - but it's not. Granted for a majority of
individuals (myself included), getting involved with others going through
the same thing is very very helpful. However, there are also individuals
that can and do complete the process on their own. If this is the way they
want to do it, and can succeed in a healthy way, who are you or I to tell
them how to change their process? Who are you or I to tell them that they
should aggressively partake in any and all activism surrounding being TG,
especially if doing so jeopardises their successful transition?
Activism for the sake of activism won't get it. You can't force someone to
buy into a greater cause philosophy, especially when it puts them in the
path of destruction. Just ask the gay and lesbian community about this, and
how forced outings affected them.
>befall us... but the opposite is true. By embracing "those people" and
>learning from them, we learn to avoid the more serious potholes on the
>transgender highway.
Embracing doesn't mean being out. You can embrace the TG community and not
be out. An embrace always isn't a bear hug.
>Isn't it about time we, as a community, opened our eyes to the larger reality
My eyes ARE open to the larger reality. My eyes are also open to my
reality. My reality takes precedence at the current stage of my life.
Perhaps someday this will not be so - and I sincerely hope it isn't.
Toni
Laura Blake
On 5 Aug 1997 14:24:17 -0400, anon-...@anon.twwells.com (spunky) wrote:
>Of course most of these people were members of that *cult*
>better known as AA and used the excuse that if they didn't do what they were
>doing they would "go back to drinking"- as if some mystical force "makes"
>them ingest alcohol.
More insensitive bullshit!
There is a mysterious force at work... it's called ADDICTION!
Nothing galls me more than some middle class puke dumping on their own
less-fortunate peers.
More than 2/3 of the transgender community suffer severe to total social
disenfranchisement, solely as a result of coming out of the closet. They lose
jobs, friends, family, homes and social supports. They are refused access to
shelters, programs and even stores. Many are driven to acts of very real
desperation; stealing food to eat, taking drugs or drinking to ease the pain,
turning tricks to pay the rent etc. These people are not to be scorned, or
put down by ANYONE, they are as much part of our community as any one of the
people reading this newsgroup.
This transsexual-centric image people have of transgender identity as a middle
class pursuit is purely and unquestionably false. There are indeed a few
people who come out at work and succeed in making a no-fuss transition. These
are the ones amongst us who end up with computers, money, nice homes, and all
the things that go along with middle-class life. But there are many many more
who lose everything. The transgender community, if seen in it's totality is
anything but middle class. It is a community of deeply oppressed and
desperate people, some of whom are never going to get their lives back to
middle-class standards, some who have no choice but to rely upon social
supports that just aren't there, and some who will kill themselves just to
make the pain go away.
In all truth I am one of those people. Before I came out and began
crossliving I had a good job as a computer design engineer (cash register
systems mostly) and worked for an international company. When I told my boss
about my situation I found myself going backwards out of a second story plate
glass window... and ended up with a serious back injury, from landing on a
curbstone below. No, I haven't held a 9 to 5 job since, and yes I've had
bouts with alcoholism, drug abuse, and two attempts at suicide. It is only by
the dumbest luck that I met a really nice guy who helped me put together a
liveable life --hardly middle class, but pleasant enough.
Don't kid yourselves, this can happen to any of us... and it can happen in the
blink of an eye. The injury that ended my healthy life, took less than 3
seconds, and it was a direct result of coming out to my boss.
The question is: when it does happen... do we want to have to listen to idiots
like this "Spunky" creep putting us down, on top of everything else that has
gone on? I for one most certainly do not!
I've said over and over, for several years, that this burning need felt by
transsexuals to distance themselves from their own kind is the one thing
holding our community back. Distancing ourselves from the larger realities
that surround us, also blinds us to the less desirable possiblities in our own
lives. We may hope by avoiding "those people" that "those faits" will not
befall us... but the opposite is true. By embracing "those people" and
learning from them, we learn to avoid the more serious potholes on the
transgender highway.
Moreover, whenever we distance ourselves from our peers, we contribute to
their ongoing oppression; not only do we not do anything about ending the
problems they have, we become part of the problem because we reject them from
their own "family".
In my time on Usenet, I did little else but try to get the elitist clique to
stop this insistance that only their issues mattered. I tackled those who put
down their peers, I went after those who took superioristic positions, and I
went after the ones who tried to discredit their own kind... and yes I did it
with anger and deliberacy.
Isn't it about time we, as a community, opened our eyes to the larger reality
and got over this bullshit of putting our own kind down...
There but for the grace of dumb luck go all of us!
Lisanne A
Hi Marla
>I think we are in agreement here. I'm pointing out the pros and you
>the cons but we both see the other :-)
>
>Basically, my rule of thumb is to take all such studies 'with a grain
>of salt' <g>.
Of course I can see both. And as an idealist, I quit a job because I
considered the purpose of the data too important to play with. When I was
in the data collection field, I took it very seriouslyt, even though I had
little knowledge of the statistical methodology. However, I learned enough
to recognize the problems inherent to all studies, and at times problems
that may be present in collecting data for specific purposes. And having
done field supervision and collecting,, I also know how at the origin
points of data collection, things can get so disorginized that one might
as well as stop a study right then and there and start all over again.
But, I have workes with people who were not afraid to do exactly that, so
there is some intergrity in the field, and many of those who work in
statistics take a personal pride in the near accuracy of their work.
Love and Hugs,
Kristine W. Holt
Julie Haugh (j...@austin.ibm.com) wrote:
: In article <33ea1591...@news1.sympatico.ca>,
: Laura Blake <lbl...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
: >On 5 Aug 1997 14:24:17 -0400, anon-...@anon.twwells.com (spunky) wrote:
: >>Of course most of these people were members of that *cult*
: >>better known as AA and used the excuse that if they didn't do what
: >>they were
: >>doing they would "go back to drinking"- as if some mystical force "makes"
: >>them ingest alcohol.
: >There is a mysterious force at work... it's called ADDICTION!
:
: And =why= did they get addicted?
Why are we transgendered? I'm sure that if you asked 10 different
physicians and counselors about addiction and/or transgender-ness, you'd
get at least 9 different answers, ranging from physio-medical to
psychological etiologies. But like the transgendered individual,
the addict is not in a good position to understand her addition -- too
close to the problem and prone to self-serving rationalizations. The
addict and the tranny alike seek only one thing: relief. And we take the
support wherever we can find it.
I first sought counseling for my transsexuality in February 1976. That
was also about the time I discovered Milwaukee's Finest (late teens). I
don't understand addiction, only the consequences of it. It put my
transition on hold for 15 years. When I became humble enough to realize
that there are certain things in this world I have no control over, such
as my addiction, I became free of it. I understand recovery about as
little as I understand addiction: only the consequences I know better,
such as the breakneck speed of my subsequent transition. My strongest
support through my early transition was within my local straight "12-step"
community. We take our support wherever we can find it.
It's a big world out there. Anyone who thinks they can tackle it alone
is a fool.
-- Kris
m...@dim.com
On 9 Aug 1997 00:43:33 GMT, kh...@astro.temple.edu (Kristine W. Holt)
wrote:
>Why are we transgendered?
I normally answer that question with a similar question...
" Why do some people like chocolate ice cream and why do some like
vanilla?"
The answer lies in that people are different. There need to be no
further or better answer than that.
Toni Russell
lbl...@sympatico.ca (Laura Blake) writes:
>On 7 Aug 1997 23:06:53 -0400, to...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu (Toni Russell) wrote:
>>I guess I need you to summarize your feelings on this issue.
>Nice try... That was one of the very best "you make me insecure as hell"
>rants I've seen in a very long time.... 8 out of 10.
>But, if a total stranger on an abstract medium can scare you that much...
>maybe you should spend some time examining your own fears... huh?
What in the world are you talking about? Scare ME? How did I allude to
being insecure? Is this just a way to sidestep responding to the actual
content of my post? I am seriously baffled.
Trust me Laura, you are exactly correct. A "total stranger on an abstract
medium" such as this has very very very little chance of bumping my
fear button, much less smacking it hard.
Toni
Laura Blake
Laura Blake
On Fri, 08 Aug 1997 02:51:10 GMT, arb...@mindspring.com (Andrea Bennett)
wrote:
>Life as a transgendered person is hugely problematical. Like Laura,
>when I was young I feared retribution so much I just decided to table
>the issue for years. Again, like her, I didn't get around to coming
>out until rather late in life.
Here you go again... Putting words in my mouth and then attacking me for
them. What the hell are you, some kind of Julie Haugh clone or something?
I DID NOT postpone transition out of fear of retribution... As I've told
everyone here many many times in the past, I postponed it because I chose
not to have surgery, and needed a little time to re-think the whole thing.
You are a goddamned lawyer... of all the people here you should know better
than this! Pity the fool who hires you as an advocate!
AmandaJaye
In article <33EF2040...@tab.com>, Julie Haugh <j...@tab.com> writes:
>Uh, since you were on the surgery track when you first came out,
>your story smells a bit, uh, RIPE.
The cycle repeats itself!
Amanda - Participant Fidonet GenderWars
Laura Blake
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 06:45:03 GMT, arb...@mindspring.com (Andrea Bennett)
wrote:
>Within this fairly extensive frame of
>reference, I have perceived your thoughts and deeds to be your
>response to the terrible internal conflict over gender you have so
>often described and the difficult circumstances you've encountered as
>a result.
And for the most part I've regretted ever acknowledging your existence.
This "terrible internal conflict over gender" you keep tossing in my lap,
simply does not exist... Want proof? Write to the "friends of transequal"
list on my website... these people know me VERY well, they work with me day
in and day out... And they will tell you that the only serious turmoil in my
life comes directly from these ongoing bullshit arguements with transsexuals
who just can't bring themselves to understand that some of us have indeed
resolved our issues --and lead happy lives-- without jumping on scalpals.
Y'know what my biggest problem is?
People like you who insist upon trying to tell me I have a problem.
-----
Laura Blake
Visit the TransEqual Website at:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/lblake
-----
Cheryl
Just in time, I see. Heh heh, I'm just getting in touch with my inner
crone.
Love ya,
Cheryl
AmandaJaye
In article <3401ea4d...@news.cruzio.com>, che...@nowhere.com
(Cheryl) writes:
>>Amanda - Participant Fidonet GenderWars
>>
>Just in time, I see. Heh heh, I'm just getting in touch with my inner
>crone.
Well, I know you were off-line for a while, but you haven't missed too
terribly much. Some of the supporting cast has changed, but the diva hasn't
changed one iota.
YEP, Sister Laura's Travelling Salvation Show is making the internet
circuit. The script is basically intact... although the average word length
seems to be accelerating toward the magical four letter figure.
If you're really a glutton for this sort of thing though you can always
visit dejanews or just dust off your archives of the 94/95 Fido-Gender
firestorms and change the dates..... no differences sweetie!
Hope to see ya this weekend.
Your humble protege,
Amanda - Mad Blonde of the East Bay
http://members.aol.com/amandajaye/
Branches from the nearby foliage, or geological specimens, may fracture my
skeletal structure; however, inaccurate descriptions of my physical appearance,
heritage or personality, cannot damage my psyche.
PS. Not especially humble any more, either. :>
>
>Love ya,
>Cheryl
>
>
Cheryl
On 20 Aug 1997 23:05:09 GMT, amand...@aol.com (AmandaJaye) wrote:
>Well, I know you were off-line for a while, but you haven't missed too
>terribly much. Some of the supporting cast has changed, but the diva hasn't
>changed one iota.
>YEP, Sister Laura's Travelling Salvation Show is making the internet
>circuit. The script is basically intact... although the average word length
>seems to be accelerating toward the magical four letter figure.
>
I've said all that I care to about his nonsense. As before, I'd be
willing to discuss the concepts. I happen to feel they are wrong,
but I can usually find some common agreement in a civilized
discussion, and have done so with others when there is more light than
heat. M. Blake's insight, if you will, is not as unique as he would
like to think, but the abrasiveness and certitude in face of all
evidence to the contrary makes any meaningful dialogue impossible.
Kind of like the flat-earthers (and there are still a few around) who
despite all evidence to the contrary, maintain that the earth is not
nor ever was round. Obviously such a person has invested a lot of
emotional charge into his fixation, and if someone ever did dislodge
the notion the entire personality would disintegrate. In other words,
we're talking about a psychpath. Not that I would much care, except
when such a person presents himself as spokesperson for transsexuals
in public policy debate, and when he leads others down the garden path
who may be too innocent to know better. You know as well as I do that
a person will never be publically accepted as half-man, half-woman,
except in a carnival next to Bobo the chimp-faced boy.
>If you're really a glutton for this sort of thing though you can always
>visit dejanews or just dust off your archives of the 94/95 Fido-Gender
>firestorms and change the dates..... no differences sweetie!
>
Why bother? It's been around before, it will be again. Ah, to be so
jaded and world-weary. <g> I rather thought of Fido-Gender as the
bottom feeders of TGNet, the wannabees who "really were transsexual
because they thought they were women" but never did a damned thing
about it, except maybe wear the wife's panties when she was out of the
house. Sheesh! But you can scan over that stuff. LBM is in-yer-face
offensive.
I don't know why every foot-fetishist or panty-sniffer "wants" to be
TS, except maybe to give a cachet of respectability to his, uh,
peculiarity. I never wanted to be TS. Oh yeah, screw up my life just
so I can dress up like a girl, what fun! I have more respect for the
honest transvestite than someone who attempts to denigrate the
struggles of transsexuals by saying that it's all the same thing, but
I'm delusional to think I'm a woman, and that everyone else must be
unpassable because he is.
>
>Your humble protege,
>
Never that, dear. You just needed someone to kick you in the butt, to
lead you on to a life of ruin and debauchery. I warned ya, didn't I?
"One is not born, but rather becomes a woman." - Simone de Beauvoir
Amanda J
Cheryl wrote in article <34141ea8...@news.cruzio.com>...>>Your humble
protege,
>>
>Never that, dear. You just needed someone to kick you in the butt, to
>lead you on to a life of ruin and debauchery. I warned ya, didn't I?
Yeah... ya did! Fortunately I didn't pay any attention!
>"One is not born, but rather becomes a woman." - Simone de Beauvoir
Quite well put!!!
Amanda - Mad Blonde of the East Bay
"I used to be a little boy, so old in my shoes. What I choose is my choice,
what's a boy supposed to do?" Smashing Pumpkins -- Disarm
(Coming soon: http://www.hooked.net/~ajward/)