VR4: jumper or biwire?

[Johnny Y Boey]

I would like to know:

1) do you biwire, or jumper?

2) why? heard any difference?

Thanks.

[EL34]

I bi-wire solely because I got another pair of cables for a good price
that were a notch up in quality from the same manufactuer and was go to
try bi-amping at the time. I only use one amp now, but use both sets of
cable because they are there. I don't like the idea of spending twice as
much on cable, so I would not have done this if I had only the one amp
and a good set of cable. I also don't like the cheap metal "strap"
jumpers. I think it would be best to use some short(6") real wire
jumpers with banana connectors to attach the two sets of posts and then
spades to a nice set of cables. This would eliminate that crumby
interface and cut your cable cost in half. I can hear the difference of
good cable vs cheap cable, but I doubt that I could tell two pairs from
one or ten or whatever. I think that once you get a good connection and
sufficient quality of cable to produce full frequency response at all
levels then any more would be wasteful.

[Johnny Y Boey]

But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.

JB

[EL34]

Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
>
> JB

Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
money saved on the duplicate cable run?

[Johnny Y Boey]

But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the
sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have
put them that far apart.

JB

[EL34]

Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
>
> JB

I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
are in bed with a cable manufacturer. The reason they put the drivers in
seperate boxes, of course, had nothing to do with connections. The
Wilson speakers have terminals that far apart, but you can run the cable
through the back cover to the top. It is up to the user to decide how to
make the connections and with what wire. It is very trendy today to
bi-wire and I am frankly quite surprised to see that it has grown in
popularity. It may simply be due to the ignorance of the newer buyers
that see two terminals and are told by the dealer that they are
"provisions for bi-wiring". That is a common sales pitch. I would guess
that the profit margin on wire is quite substantial. In a more useful
and equally impractical way, they would be more suitably called
"provisions for bi-amping". I don't actually recommend that people go
out and buy two identical amps to power a pair of speakers, however. It
is interesting to see what effects combining different amps of differing
topologies has. I found that adding a tube amp to the top pair of posts
will greatly effect the sound as does switching from all solid state to
all tube. Many different possibilities are available in this regard as
to which amps are chosen and for what purpose. I have tried several
brands and types of wire with varying results, but have not been so
impressed with duplicating the same identical wire. As always, it's your
money.

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

EL34 wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> >
> > I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
> >
> > JB
> I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
> are in bed with a cable manufacturer.

They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???

[Jack W. Hart]

Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> EL34 wrote:
> >
> > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > >

> > > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> > >
> > > JB
> > Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> > terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> > 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
> > banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> > whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> > money saved on the duplicate cable run?
>
> But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the

> sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have

> put them that far apart.
>
> JB

They DO recommend bi-wiring, as do most high-end speaker manufacturers.

Cheers,

Jack

[Jeff Adams]

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:27:53 -0500, Johnny Y Boey
<jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the
>sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have
>put them that far apart.

I'm sure they do recommend it (ok, well, I'd bet they do). But with
regards to how far apart they are, I suspect that was more practical
than anything. I'm guessing the crossover boards sit on the bottom of
their respective enclosures... Therefore, the interface point (speaker
posts) are a few inches from the bottom of each cabinet (woofer and
M/T).

I can remember being a little bothered by this at first... Anyway, I
do run biwired, but I haven't done any kind of conclusive testing
regarding the difference. Originally I had a run of MIT T2 (I think
that's right - if there is a t2 and t3, this is the "better" of those
two) going to the Woofer with a jumper of cheap audioquest
something-or-other (blue jacket, a couple maybe three solid core but
insulated runs of red and black wires) between the two (bananas). I
didn't like this from a mechanical standpoint, so I I added a separate
run of Esoteric Audio something-or-other (sorry to be so vague - it's
really thick, maybe 12 gauge, but nothing special) to the woofer and
moved the MIT to the M/T. Then finally, because I needed longer wires,
I made up pairs of 14 feet of the Esoteric Audio cable (I had this
stuff laying around for years, I didn't go buy it recently) using
cheap gold-plated Radio Shack spade lugs. Well, I think it sounds
better now (which I wasn't expecting). I'm not sure about the M/T, but
darned if I don't have more mid-bass punch (I'm the guy struggling to
get my VR-4's have that mid-bass punch I feel like I'm missing). I'm
still working with room positioning (my dealer, Elite Electronics in
San Jose, has been REALLY GREAT! We've talked with one of the
engineers, as well as Albert himself, trying to get me straigtened out
on this mid-bass punch thing - I'm still working it, I'll let you
know).

============CORRECT EMAIL address below===================================
| Jeff Adams (jeff....@gsc.gte.com) | GTE Electronic Systems Division |
| 415-966-2122 | Mountain View, CA U.S.A. |
| All opinions are mine and not my employer or internet access provider. |
==========================================================================

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
>
> EL34 wrote:
> >
> > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > >

> > > I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
> > >

> > > JB
> > I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
> > are in bed with a cable manufacturer.
>
> They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???

It's actually Audio Magic...but why does that suggest some sort of
unholy alliance??

Brian

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

Jeff Adams wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:27:53 -0500, Johnny Y Boey
> <jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >But my most important question is: whether biwiring will improve the

> >sound. I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have

> >put them that far apart.
>

It's a very common complaint. I had to buy 4.5s to solve it.

Brian

[Dana Bunner]

EL34 wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> >

> > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> >
> > JB
> Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
> banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> money saved on the duplicate cable run?

Let's see ... at 15 cents a foot for decent zip cord, saving
16' of cable would save me $2.40.

I'd probably go and blow it all on a hamburger.

:-)

Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't use zip cord in my main
system - I did blow all of $80 to purchase used, terminated
bi-wire Tara Labs Prism cable to run to my VR-4s. But in
any case, I wouldn't have saved much by using a jumper.

Dana

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
> >

> > EL34 wrote:
> > >
> > > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > > >

> > > > I would guess that VR recommends biwiring or they wouldn't have put them that far apart.
> > > >

> > > > JB
> > > I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they
> > > are in bed with a cable manufacturer.
> >
> > They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???
>
> It's actually Audio Magic...but why does that suggest some sort of
> unholy alliance??
>
> Brian

I never suggested an unholy alliance - I simply mentioned a fact that
there IS an alliance :)
Zip

[Arny Krüger]

Dana Bunner <bun...@doit.wisc.edu> wrote in article
<33565C...@doit.wisc.edu>...

> EL34 wrote:
> >
This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> > whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with
the
> > money saved on the duplicate cable run?
>
> Let's see ... at 15 cents a foot for decent zip cord, saving
> 16' of cable would save me $2.40.
>

I think you are tilting this argument outlandishly in favor of zip cord by
grossly understating the cost of appropriate zip cord. Anybody who buys
these speakers would use at least number 12 zip cord which runs around
$0.25-0.35 a foot depending on quantity. That would bring the savings be
$4.00 or more - a whole Value Meal at McDonald's. ;-)

[EL34]

Dana Bunner wrote:
>
> EL34 wrote:
> >
> > Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> > >

> > > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> > >
> > > JB
> > Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> > terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> > 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to

> > banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or

> > whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> > money saved on the duplicate cable run?
>
> Let's see ... at 15 cents a foot for decent zip cord, saving
> 16' of cable would save me $2.40.
>

> I'd probably go and blow it all on a hamburger.
>
> :-)
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't use zip cord in my main
> system - I did blow all of $80 to purchase used, terminated
> bi-wire Tara Labs Prism cable to run to my VR-4s. But in
> any case, I wouldn't have saved much by using a jumper.
>
> Dana

In your VW, no doubt!

[Morten Christiansen]

EL34 wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> >
> > But the VR4's binding posts are ~3ft apart.
> >
> > JB
> Another good reason to use jumper wires! You could run a pair of spade
> terminated cables to the bass bin and then use the same type cable in a
> 3 1/2' run to the hf driver cabinet. You could terminate banana to
> banana or banana to spade. This still saves you 16 feet of cable or
> whatever the combined lengths are to the amp. What would you do with the
> money saved on the duplicate cable run?

All this talk about banana just makes me go APE!

Best regards,
Morten

[ae...@flight.els]

>They DO recommend bi-wiring, as do most high-end speaker manufacturers.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Jack

Here we go again with the speaker cable nonsense. I'm not picking on
you directly Jack, but..................

Speaker manufacturers include bi-wire capability on their speakers
mainly for one reason; to satisfy the supposed requirement that high
end speakers "should" be bi-wireable. Yes, some designs require it
because of the design itself, however they are there for utility
purposes, not for sonic benefit.

The high end market views bi-wiring as "necessary," so manufacturers
cater to this mentality for image sake. Even one of the questionable
folks at Stereophile complained about the Thiel CS7 having a single
set of binding posts. Give me a break!

Jim Thiel has designed some of the finest and most successful speakers
in audio, yet none of his designs can be bi-wired. The CS7 and CS5i,
which are arguably two of the best speakers on the market sonically at
any price, don't even provide bi-wire capability.

Gee, I wonder why? Could it be that perhaps it's not necessary?
Could it be that a world class designer like Jim Thiel realizes
there's no benefit? Makes one wonder...............................

===>

[tar...@michiana.org]

ae...@flight.els wrote:

> Jim Thiel has designed some of the finest and most successful speakers
> in audio, yet none of his designs can be bi-wired.

Not quite true,
Early Thiels were bi-wireable. Used to have a pair of CS 3s. Funny thing was
the tweeter was seperated from the mid and wolfer rather than the tweeter
and midrange seperated from the wolfer.
Todd

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

I think that's supposed to be "Wolpher".

Brian

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Greg Pavlov wrote:

>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> : > Johnny Y Boey wrote:

> : > >
> : > I would be surprised if they would recommend such an expense unless they

> : > are in bed with a cable manufacturer.
> :
> : They are - isn't it silver sonic that they use in their VR-4.5's???

> :
>
> I think you already know the answer to that Steve:

Sorry to dissappoint you Greg - I did not remember that. It has been
several months since I was terminated, a decision which they ought to
reconsider :)
Zip

--
Sunshine Stereo Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
No 1 PASS & GALLO dealer in the US, Chiro, CODA, Straightwire,
ESP, NHT, Energy, NEAR, Parasound, Carver, Lightstar, Camelot
Technology,
Shakti, Audible Illusions, Quicksilver, Soundesign, No, 1 Audio Logic
dealer in the world :)

[MGarrett23]

For the record, The wire used inside the VR-4.5 loudspeaker is Audio Magic
not
Silver Sonic. As far as bi-wire vs jumpers I have heard the VR's sound
quite good either way, however the quality of the cables being used on the
speaker made a much larger difference than the way it was hooked up.
Try it both ways see what you prefer. But a better set of cables run
single with jumpers may be the best value.

Mike Garret

[Arny Krüger]

MGarrett23 <mgarr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970502015...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...

> For the record, The wire used inside the VR-4.5 loudspeaker is Audio
Magic
> not
> Silver Sonic. As far as bi-wire vs jumpers I have heard the VR's sound
> quite good either way, however the quality of the cables being used on
the
> speaker made a much larger difference than the way it was hooked up.

Bi Wiring is one of those thiings that are sort of hard to explain
technically. All the arguments for it I know of presume that copper is a
nonlinear conductor, which, for all practical purposes, it is not.

[Jay B. Haider]

Arny Kr=FCger wrote:
> =

> MGarrett23 <mgarr...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19970502015...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> > For the record, The wire used inside the VR-4.5 loudspeaker is Audio
> Magic
> > not

> > Silver Sonic. As far as bi-wire vs jumpers I have heard the VR's sou=
nd
> > quite good either way, however the quality of the cables being used o=

n
> the
> > speaker made a much larger difference than the way it was hooked up.

> =

> Bi Wiring is one of those thiings that are sort of hard to explain

> technically. All the arguments for it I know of presume that copper is =

a
> nonlinear conductor, which, for all practical purposes, it is not.

What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same? =

=

-Jay

[Arny Krüger]

Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<336A8E...@worldnet.att.net>...

What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same?

Nothing comes to mind, but I'm surely willing to have a biwiring proponent
propose a theory.

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

> Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> <336A8E...@worldnet.att.net>...
> What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
> if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same?

Arny Krüger wrote:
> Nothing comes to mind,

What a surprise :)

[Arny Krüger]

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) <z...@netrunner.net> wrote in article
<336D1B...@netrunner.net>...

I notice your substantial technical contributions to this discussion, which
are zip.

[Jay B. Haider]

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
> =

> > Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> > <336A8E...@worldnet.att.net>...
> > What's the real difference between biwiring and using a single wire,
> > if the total amount of wire (AWG) is the same?

> =

> Arny Kr=FCger wrote:
> > Nothing comes to mind,

> =

> What a surprise :)

So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single cable
of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?

-Jay

[Arny Krüger]

Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article

<336ED0...@worldnet.att.net>...

So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single cable
of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?

The only inherent benefit I can come up with is reliablility. If you have
mulitple connections, one can fail, and you will still have sound. In some
cases folks are "Bi Wiring" speakers with one set of input terminals or
leaving the jumpers in place, so if you loose one wire, you still have full
range sound.

[Johnny Y Boey]

Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
you want to bi-wire. Therefore, if one wire becomes loose, you will not
get full-range sound from that speaker.

JB

[Johnny Y Boey]

ae...@flight.els wrote:

> Huh? Who says you HAVE to remove the jumper? What would prevent
> someone from running a bi-wiring scheme with the VR-4's, while still
> leaving the pigtail in place?

That's what you call a short.

JB

[ae...@flight.els]

leaving the pigtail in place? It's not very intelligent, but it could
be done, and would work.

[Jack W. Hart]

At least until the amplifier blew!

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

> That's what you call a short.
>
> JB

No it is not, Johnny. Aero is correct. You can biwire with the jumpers
in place, but you lose some of the 'possible' or 'theoretical'
advantages of biwiring.
Cheers
Zip

--
Sunshine Stereo Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138

PASS, GALLO, Chiro, CODA, Straightwire, ESP, NHT, Energy, NEAR,

Parasound, Carver, Lightstar, Camelot Technology, Shakti, Audible

Illusions, Quicksilver, Soundesign, Audio Logic Cabasse

[Arny Krüger]

Johnny Y Boey <jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<33708E...@ix.netcom.com>...

> Arny Krüger wrote:
> >
> > Jay B. Haider <citroe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> > <336ED0...@worldnet.att.net>...
> >
> > So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single
cable
> > of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?
> >
> > The only inherent benefit I can come up with is reliablility. If you
have
> > mulitple connections, one can fail, and you will still have sound. In
some
> > cases folks are "Bi Wiring" speakers with one set of input terminals or
> > leaving the jumpers in place, so if you loose one wire, you still have
full
> > range sound.
>
>
> Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
> you want to bi-wire. Therefore, if one wire becomes loose, you will not
> get full-range sound from that speaker.

I dunno. My KEF Q15's are set up for biwiring and its possible to use both
the jumpers and do biwiring at the same time, particularly if you biwire
with spade connectors or bananna plugs.

In the case where folks biwire speakers like the NHT superzeroes, which
have only one set of input connectors, (which I allude to above), the
"jumper" is always in place.

[Arny Krüger]

ae...@flight.els wrote in article <337117c2...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...

> >> Huh? Who says you HAVE to remove the jumper? What would prevent
> >> someone from running a bi-wiring scheme with the VR-4's, while still

> >> leaving the pigtail in place? It's not very intelligent, but it could
> >> be done, and would work.
> >
> >At least until the amplifier blew!
>

> How?
>
No way.

Now that Zip has admitted to biwiring with both ends of the bi wires
shorted together, we have complete proof that biwiring is about the same as
upping the wire guage, if that.

[ae...@flight.els]

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Wed, 7 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:

> Arny Kr=FCger wrote:
> >=20
> > Jay B. Haider wrote:
> >=20
> > > So what _is_ the difference between biwiring and using a single=20

> > > cable of equivalent AWG as the two biwire cables?

> >=20
> > The only inherent benefit I can come up with is reliablility. If you ha=
ve
> > mulitple connections, one can fail, and you will still have sound. In s=

ome
> > cases folks are "Bi Wiring" speakers with one set of input terminals or

> > leaving the jumpers in place, so if you loose one wire, you still have =
full
> > range sound.
>=20

> Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
> you want to bi-wire.

Let's hear what you know about this...: Why?

To Mr. Haider's original question: No audible difference when
the cable used in single-wiring is appropriate to begin with
(i.e. with impeding characteristics in the transparency range),
as evidenced by reliable listening.
--
,
Sebastien

[jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch]

In article <Pine.A32.3.91.970512...@mecapp1.meca.polymtl.ca> "Sebastien P. McIntyre" <s...@meca.polymtl.ca> writes:
>> Don't know what you're talking about. You have to remove the jumper if
>> you want to bi-wire.

Well, I've run an experiment where I did a blind test while adding and
removing the jumpers on a bi-wired set of decent loudspeakers that people
reccommend here once in a while.

The result?

"No audible difference".

No, the test wasn't biased. And the control (a .1dB loudness difference
due to long cable length) was easily detected.
--
Copyright alice!jj 1997, all rights reserved, except transmission by USENET
and like facilities granted. This notice must be included. Any use by a
provider charging in any way for the IP represented in and by this article
and any inclusion in print or other media are specifically prohibited.

[MACANDROC]

This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?

[Johnny Y Boey]

MACANDROC wrote:
>
> This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick.

what about tri-wire?

JB

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

MACANDROC wrote:
>
> This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?

Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.

The VSR speakers certainly sound better bi-wired, though others may not.

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:

> : MACANDROC wrote:
> : > This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?
> :
> : Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
> : layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
> : feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.

> :
> No, that does not mean that one is "virtually demanded" to run an extra
> 10-20 feet of wire for each speaker rather than a 2.5 foot jumper.
>
> : The VSR speakers certainly sound better bi-wired, though others may not.
> : Cheers
> :
> I do not believe that. But I *do* believe that a lot more designer wire
> is sold on that premise: if one can be convinced that designer wire is
> "better", one can easily be convinced that two runs of it is "better" yet.

Frankly Greg, I don't give a hoot if you believe that or not. The fact
is that Biwiring VR-4's DOES make a difference, and I cordially invite
YOU here to listen & here for yourself :)

I do not sell a whole lot of expensive cables, I do not sell water
filled jackets, and light insulated wire (wow is that one ridiculous!)
and I don't sell wire with eliminators & terminators with 30lb aluminum
blocks.

By the way, Greg, do you own VR-4's? NO?? have you done the
comparison? NO????
I thought so!

[Arny Krüger]

Greg Pavlov <pav...@niktow.canisius.edu> wrote in article
<5lf133$9...@niktow.canisius.edu>...
>
>
> :

> But I *do* believe that a lot more designer wire
> is sold on that premise: if one can be convinced that designer wire is
> "better", one can easily be convinced that two runs of it is "better"
yet.
>

In our audio club the joke is that "Bi Wire" is really spelled "Buy Wire".
I think Tom Nousaine brought that one in from the cold if not wind.

I have to admit that I've walked into high end shops and seen speakers like
the smaller Paradigms and NHT's bi-wired and had a hard time retaining my
composure.

When I say ROTFLMAO its not always an abstract concept!

[Jack W. Hart]

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
>
> Greg Pavlov wrote:
> >
> > Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> > : MACANDROC wrote:
> > : > This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?
> > :
> > : Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
> > : layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
> > : feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.
> > :
> > No, that does not mean that one is "virtually demanded" to run an extra
> > 10-20 feet of wire for each speaker rather than a 2.5 foot jumper.
> >
> > : The VSR speakers certainly sound better bi-wired, though others may not.
> > : Cheers
> > :

> > I do not believe that. But I *do* believe that a lot more designer wire

> > is sold on that premise: if one can be convinced that designer wire is
> > "better", one can easily be convinced that two runs of it is "better" yet.
>

> Frankly Greg, I don't give a hoot if you believe that or not. The fact
> is that Biwiring VR-4's DOES make a difference, and I cordially invite
> YOU here to listen & here for yourself :)
>
> I do not sell a whole lot of expensive cables, I do not sell water
> filled jackets, and light insulated wire (wow is that one ridiculous!)
> and I don't sell wire with eliminators & terminators with 30lb aluminum
> blocks.
>
> By the way, Greg, do you own VR-4's? NO?? have you done the
> comparison? NO????
> I thought so!
>
> Sunshine Stereo Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
> PASS, GALLO, Chiro, CODA, Straightwire, ESP, NHT, Energy, NEAR,
> Parasound, Carver, Lightstar, Camelot Technology, Shakti, Audible
> Illusions, Quicksilver, Soundesign, Audio Logic Cabasse

I've listened to the VR-4's both with a "jumper" and bi-wired, both with
Cardas "Golden Cross" and the DH Labs "Silver Sonics," both of which are
EXCELLENT with the Von Schweikert's and easily out-performed the
"jumpered" configuration in dynamics, bass extension and soundstaging.
I didn't feel it necessary to repeat "the experiment" with the VR-4
"Silver Signatures" or the VR-4.5's, each of which surpassed their
"predecessors" in terms of detail, coherency, dynamics, musicality and
the bottom end.

This was not unexpected considering that Albert recommends bi-wiring and
I've obtained consistently better results bi-wiring speakers including
Theil's, Genesis, Dunlavy's and Martin Logan's.

Cheers,

Jack

[Andrew Dudinsky]

For a VR-4.5 what amp would recommend? I have beem suggest PASS or Kerl.
Is it worth extra $$? Is there anytthing less money, that is still good?
I was considering a Bryston 4B.

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

Arny Kr¸ger wrote:
>
> When I say ROTFLMAO its not always an abstract concept!

But it is always an unpleasant image, nonetheless.

Brian

[Jack W. Hart]

There are a number of amps that would sound wonderful with the VR-4.5's
including the Balanced Audio Technology VK-60, which I use, the Blue
Circle (of Canada) amps, Pass, Sonic Frontiers (also of Canada), Krell,
Rowland, etc.

Cheers,

Jack

[Eddie Hou]

In article <5lfjup$g...@niktow.canisius.edu>, pav...@niktow.canisius.edu
(Greg Pavlov) wrote:

>
> I appreciate your reaction but I do not find the issue humorous. My
> Paradigm Studio 20's are set up for bi-wiring. They're very nice posts
> and very nice jumpers come with them. I would have much preferred to
> see a lower list price of $20 or so and not be forced to pay for other
> peoples' mysticism.

Nice posts and jumpers.... ooh, ahh.. ;-)

Just kidding- take it easy, Greg, you've been a good sport. That's
enough for me on this thread... :-()

-Eddie

[Johnny Y Boey]

Greg Pavlov wrote:

> I appreciate your reaction but I do not find the issue humorous. My
> Paradigm Studio 20's are set up for bi-wiring.

Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.

JB

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Jack W. Hart (jwh...@premier.net) wrote:
> :
> : I've listened to the VR-4's both with a "jumper" and bi-wired, both with

> : Cardas "Golden Cross" and the DH Labs "Silver Sonics," both of which are
> : EXCELLENT with the Von Schweikert's and easily out-performed the
> : "jumpered" configuration in dynamics, bass extension and soundstaging.
>

> The jumper wires were defective.
>

I doubt that his jumpers were defective, Greg.
However, your conclusions certainly are suspect :)
Zip
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

--

[Johnny Y Boey]

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey (jb...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> :
> : Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently

> : biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.

> :
>
> What do you think is responsible for the improvement ?
>

If I know for sure, I wouldn't have started this thread.

JB

[Tom Melanson]

In my experience with both VR-4's and 4.5's using a Krell 200S and XLO
Type 5, as well as High Wire 1100 & 700 series and Jenving Supra Ply
3.4, I found NO advantage to bi-wiring(speaker run was 10 ft) When using
an XLO Type 5 jumper the major difference came from hooking the amp
directly to the tweeter/midrange making sure it was not hooked up the
other way 'round. Isn't this hobby fun?
BTW, not to take anything away from those who like bi-wiring, but some
manufacturers (who shall remain nameless) will tell you that the
bi-wiring option is related to marketing NOT sonics) What say you, John
Dunlavy?
Tom

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:

> : Greg Pavlov wrote:
> : >
> : > The jumper wires were defective.

> : >
> : I doubt that his jumpers were defective, Greg.
> : However, your conclusions certainly are suspect :)

> :
>
> I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept the notion
> that the difference he heard was real.
>
Greg:
Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some
of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
maybe just was!) non-existant!
Cheers
Zip

[Johnny Y Boey]

Arny Krüger wrote:
>
> Greg Pavlov <pav...@niktow.canisius.edu> wrote in article

> <5lhs8i$b...@niktow.canisius.edu>...

> >
> > Johnny Y Boey (jb...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> > :
> > : Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
> > : biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.
> > :
> >
> > What do you think is responsible for the improvement ?
> >
>

> I'll bet money its because he thinks he's "spent enough" that the alleged
> difference should be audible.

ignorance is bliss.

[Arny Krüger]

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:

> MACANDROC wrote:
> >
> > This whle bi-wiring bs makes me sick. who came up with the idea anyway?
>
> Then you are obviously ignorant of the setup requirements or the rear
> layout of the Von Schweikert speakers. The rear terminals are about two
> feet apart, virtually demanding the speaker be bi-wired.

From AVS's webpage, bi-wiring is only recommended, not required, so I
would imagine that bus bars are included, aren't they?
--
,
Sebastien

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:

> Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
> biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.

Are you implying there's a design flaw in the crossover network
of the VR-4? [You may wish to retort that the listening leading
to that conclusion was not done in a _reliable_ manner :) ]

According to three speaker designers a friend of mine contacted
a year and a half ago, a _competently_ designed crossover makes
bi-wiring a futile gadget. And according to Edgar Villchur,
bi-wiring is inaudible since the 60's (if not earlier -- my
memory is failling me right now).
--
,
Sebastien

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Sat, 17 May 1997, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:

> Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
> between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
> maybe just was!) non-existant!

If I were Albert Von Schweikert and you a VR dealer, that would be
enough ground to terminate you.
--
,
Sebastien

[Johnny Y Boey]

Arny Krüger wrote:
>
> Johnny Y Boey <jb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

> <337F31...@ix.netcom.com>...
> >
> > ignorance is bliss.
> >
>
> You presume I have never heard speakers that are VR4's or competitive with
> them.
>

So you have actually heard the VR4's? Did you act like a smartass and
comments about the biwiring, and got kicked out of the store?

JB

[MACANDROC]

Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
:
: Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
: between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some

: of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
: maybe just was!) non-existant!
:

It would be good if someone from VS explained why this would be so.

I always wonder if the comparison is being done with two pairs of speakers
and two amps cause if it's done with the same pair of speakers, how do you
remember what you heard? And if it' s done with two amps or two different
pair of speakers, then how do you know they really sound the same under
normal conditions? Do you realize audiophiles never discuss how good music
sounds anymore? Isn't that what all the expensive equipment is for, to
listen to and enjoy music?

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On 15 May 1997, Greg Pavlov wrote:

> Arny Kr=FCger (ar...@pop3.concentric.net) wrote:
> :=20
> : In our audio club the joke is that "Bi Wire" is really spelled "Buy Wir=

e".
> : I think Tom Nousaine brought that one in from the cold if not wind.

From the cold (Canada) _and_ the wind (Chicago)...

"Wired Wisdom: The Great Chicago Cable Caper", Tom Nousaine,
Sound & Vision, Vol.11, No.3, 1995

> : I have to admit that I've walked into high end shops and seen speakers =
like
> : the smaller Paradigms and NHT's bi-wired and had a hard time retaining =
my
> : composure.=20
>=20

> I appreciate your reaction but I do not find the issue humorous. My

> Paradigm Studio 20's are set up for bi-wiring. They're very nice posts

> and very nice jumpers come with them. I would have much preferred to=20

> see a lower list price of $20 or so and not be forced to pay for other

> peoples' mysticism. I notice that my Atoms are not biwired; the compe-
> tition at that end of the scale is too intense to waste money on the
> additional hardware...

..."that has no direct effect on [perceived] sound quality."=20

-- Scott Bagby and Bill VanderMarel (Paradigm Electronics)

--
,
Sebastien Playing: "Ain't Afraid of Midnight" (_Howlin' Mercy_)
(The late) John Campbell=20

[Johnny Y Boey]

So what? I can hear a difference, and I'm happy. That's all that
matters.

JB

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:
>
> > Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
> > biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.
>
> Are you implying there's a design flaw in the crossover network
> of the VR-4? [You may wish to retort that the listening leading
> to that conclusion was not done in a _reliable_ manner :) ]
>
> According to three speaker designers a friend of mine contacted
> a year and a half ago, a _competently_ designed crossover makes
> bi-wiring a futile gadget. And according to Edgar Villchur,
> bi-wiring is inaudible since the 60's (if not earlier -- my
> memory is failling me right now).
> --

> ,
> Sebastien

Lie number one: McInTIRED has no friends
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
Gallo Acoustics, Cabasse, N.E.A.R., Energy & Veritas, NHT, Duntech,
DH Cones, Camelot, Audible Illusions, Kinergetics,, Carver, Shakti,
Sound Dynamics, NSM, ESP, Rega, PASS Labs, Parasound, Solid Steel,
Chiro, Quicksilver, CODA, Straightwire, Magnum Dynalab, Lightstar,
RoomTunes, Chesky, Reference Recordings,

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:

>
> On Sat, 17 May 1997, Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote:
>
> > Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
> > between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> > of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
> > maybe just was!) non-existant!
>

> If I were Albert Von Schweikert and you a VR dealer, that would be
> enough ground to terminate you.

McIntired:
Why don't you crawl back into your sewer. You are a moron on your best
days, on your bad days you give maggots a run for the money, and on your
worst day. you sit here with Freddie Kreuger. No doubt, AVS thinks you
are an idiot. He thinks more highly of you than we do :)

[ae...@flight.els]

Wake up and smell the roses folks. Bi-wiring doesn't do jack s**t.
If you go and spend a couple hundred bucks or so on an additional run
of cable, OF COURSE you're going to "hear" the difference. Otherwise,
you might as well spend another couple of hundred bucks in the butt
kicking machine.

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

I think it depends on the particulare speakers design. In many cases I
heard no difference, and in a few cases I heard very obvious
differences, such as in the VR-4's. Perhaps this is due in part to
defective crossover design, as Greg Pavlov suggested, but there is no
doubt that particular speaker was dramatically better bi-wired. Perhaps
the designer who is known to lurk these pages would care to explain.
Cheers
Zip
--

[John Pattison]

ae...@flight.els wrote:
>
> Wake up and smell the roses folks. Bi-wiring doesn't do jack s**t.
> If you go and spend a couple hundred bucks or so on an additional run
> of cable, OF COURSE you're going to "hear" the difference. Otherwise,
> you might as well spend another couple of hundred bucks in the butt
> kicking machine.

Aero,

You better watch what you say, or that "butt kicking machine" might just
show up in the next Audio Advisor catalog.

"The Butt Kicking Machine is my personal favorite and is the best way to
get the most out of your system," says senior sales representative, Cory.

Only joking, of course.

John

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Greg Pavlov wrote:

>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> :
> : Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
> : between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some

> : of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
> : maybe just was!) non-existant!

> :
>
> It would be good if someone from VS explained why this would be so.

Okay, here's Albert (addressing you, strangely enough!):

--------------2EBB1EB656F6
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Subject: Re: VR4: jumper or biwire?
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Albe...@aol.com
To: HEA...@ix.netcom.com

Greg, thanks for the letter. If you have read any of my technical papers, you
know my approach to design is quite different from many other designers. One
of my interests is in optimizing the transparency of the final design, and I
originally worked section by section. I developed each of the frequency bands
independantly and used completely seperated crossovers. Later, when putting
the sections together, I noticed that combining the crossovers' input and
output leads resulted in a 'homogenized' and veiled sound quality. At first
I thought that it might have been caused by magnetic interaction of the
inductors even though I had not put any of the crossover parts in close
proximity to each other.
Next I tried placing all of the crossover parts together on one board in
close proximity in similar fashion to 'commercial' speaker systems, which
resulted in even less transparency. This version did not offer enough
transparency to enable one to hear changes in interconnects, plugs, speaker
placement, CD tweaks such as green paint, cryogenic treatment, etc. etc.

After experimentation, I decided that these effects were caused by the
dominance of the bass signals' greater magnetic field strength over the
midrange/treble's field when combined in the signal leads. It is easy to
forget that music becomes an alternating current flowing in wires, and that
subsequently there is a magnetic field building and collapsing several
thousand times every second. By studying spectrographs of the signal, it is
quite obvious that the bulk of the magnetic field strength occurs primarily
below 300 cycles per second, and that the power ratios are something like
10:1 when comparing energy at 100Hz vs. 10kHz in a typical symphonic work.
For this reason, it follows that the the stronger magnetic field below 300Hz
modulates the much weaker one above 300Hz. Biwiring seperates these ground
paths to the speaker, therefore eliminating the magnetic field interaction.
The VR-4 is transparent enough to let you hear this effect, while many
speakers I have tested are not. Best regards, AVS

--------------2EBB1EB656F6--

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

"Absolutely colorless" maintains SS. However JA demurs, saying "Solid
class B. Not on par with my reference Butt Kicking Machine."

Brian

[Eddie Hou]

In article <33831cd0...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ae...@flight.els wrote:

> Wake up and smell the roses folks. Bi-wiring doesn't do jack s**t.
> If you go and spend a couple hundred bucks or so on an additional run
> of cable, OF COURSE you're going to "hear" the difference. Otherwise,
> you might as well spend another couple of hundred bucks in the butt
> kicking machine.

Sorry, I don't agree with the premise that spending more money
automatically means that one "hears a difference." I have returned plenty
of "tweaks", "wires", and more expensive equipment because they didn't
improve the sound significantly. Its only like a "butt-kicking" machine
because you're envious that you can't be similarly deluded like I am ;-)

Bi-wiring does depend on the speaker used. My local dealer could have
surely recommended to me that I biwire my 2-3 speakers that I bought from
them, but he didn't. and as JB said, if its what makes me happy, cheap or
expensive, I'll get it.

Cheers
-Eddie

[Doug Plumb]

HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote in article <338346...@ix.netcom.com>...

> Greg Pavlov wrote:
> >
> > Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> > :
> > : Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
> > : between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On
some
> > : of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost
(or
> > : maybe just was!) non-existant!
> > :
> >
> > It would be good if someone from VS explained why this would be so.
>
>
> Okay, here's Albert (addressing you, strangely enough!):

> 10:1 when comMike,

> For this reason, it follows that the the stronger magnetic field below
300Hz
> modulates the much weaker one above 300Hz. Biwiring seperates these
ground
> paths to the speaker, therefore eliminating the magnetic field
interaction.
> The VR-4 is transparent enough to let you hear this effect, while many
> speakers I have tested are not. Best regards, AVS

YOU are a fraud AVS !!!.

In case you didn't understand that, YOU ARE A FRAUD AVS ! Ever study
magnetic fields...magnetic field interaction ??? What rock did you crawl
out from under ??? Ever hear of superposition ??. Do you know that air is
non magnetic ?..it has a linear hysterisis curve for gawd sakes, the
different magnetic fields DO NOT interfere with each other!!. How much do
you sell this stuff you design for anyway ??

Could I please have one of your "technical" reports to comment on and post
? Did you even go to high school ??

Doug Plumb B. Eng. (I can't wait to see your technical report!!!)

>

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Doug Plumb wrote:

> In case you didn't understand that, YOU ARE A FRAUD AVS ! Ever study
> magnetic fields...magnetic field interaction ??? What rock did you crawl
> out from under ??? Ever hear of superposition ??. Do you know that air is
> non magnetic ?..it has a linear hysterisis curve for gawd sakes, the
> different magnetic fields DO NOT interfere with each other!!. How much do
> you sell this stuff you design for anyway ??
>
> Could I please have one of your "technical" reports to comment on and post
> ? Did you even go to high school ??
>

Doug:
Albert may be many things, but he is a very good speaker designer. He
is not a fraud. Could he have been referring to back EMF, by the way?
Cheers
Zip

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> :

> : .... Perhaps this is due in part to
> : defective crossover design, as Greg Pavlov suggested, ....
> :
>
> No, I never suggested a problem with crossover design in the VR4's.
> On the contrary, I seriously doubt that there is one though I could
> see that some people would like to start a rumor to that effect.
> It's a good way to undermine a speaker line that exhibits very good
> performance: point to something that is not visible and somewhat
> subtle and next thing you know, people will start "hearing" a
> "defective crossover design". Very clever.
>
As a matter of fact, Greg, it was YOUR words that if something sounds
better when bi-wired it was a defective design. YOUR WORDS, not mine.
By the way, nice bit od sleeze on your part trying to attribute a rumour
to me. I may not think much of AVS's morals and honesty, but the guy is
a terrific speaker designer and his crossovers are not defective, as you
intimated in your predictable Pavlovian response.
Zip
--

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

Doug Plumb wrote:

<explanation for biwiring recommendation by Albert Von Schweikert
snipped>

Best regards, AVS
>
> YOU are a fraud AVS !!!.
>

> In case you didn't understand that, YOU ARE A FRAUD AVS ! Ever study
> magnetic fields...magnetic field interaction ??? What rock did you crawl
> out from under ??? Ever hear of superposition ??. Do you know that air is
> non magnetic ?..it has a linear hysterisis curve for gawd sakes, the
> different magnetic fields DO NOT interfere with each other!!. How much do
> you sell this stuff you design for anyway ??
>
> Could I please have one of your "technical" reports to comment on and post
> ? Did you even go to high school ??
>

> Doug Plumb B. Eng. (I can't wait to see your technical report!!!)

When you are able to control yourself, write to Albert at
albe...@aol.com, or call (315)779-8748 and ask for his white paper.
Don't forget to mention that you have a Bachelor's degree in
Engineering-- that will *undoubtedly* expedite your request. You might
also throw in an accomplishment or two.

Brian

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Here you are Pavlov!!!

Article 1 of 2

Subject: Re: VR4: jumper or biwire?

From: "Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)" <z...@netrunner.net>
Date: 1997/05/15
Message-Id: <337B79...@netrunner.net>
Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
[More Headers]

Greg Pavlov wrote:

> Jack W. Hart (jwh...@premier.net) wrote:
> : I've listened to the VR-4's both with a "jumper" and bi-wired, both with
> : Cardas "Golden Cross" and the DH Labs "Silver Sonics," both of which are
> : EXCELLENT with the Von Schweikert's and easily out-performed the
> : "jumpered" configuration in dynamics, bass extension and soundstaging.

> The jumper wires were defective.

I doubt that his jumpers were defective, Greg.
However, your conclusions certainly are suspect :)

Zip
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

--

[Terry]

Greg Pavlov <pav...@sdac.harvard.edu> wrote

> In article "Doug Plumb" <E...@speedline.ca> writes:
> >
> >YOU are a fraud AVS !!!.
> >
> >In case you didn't understand that, YOU ARE A FRAUD AVS ! Ever study
> >magnetic fields...magnetic field interaction ??? What rock did you crawl

> >out from under ??? .....
> >
>
> I kinda thought that that "letter" was a put-on by AVS or Brian.
> You don't really think that it was serious, do you ??
>
>
> greg pavlov
> not affiliated with Harvard

Greg:

Did you "graduate" from Canisus to Harvard?

Terry

>

[Jack W. Hart]

Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) (z...@netrunner.net) wrote:
> : Here you are Pavlov!!!
> :
> Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> : > The jumper wires were defective.
> :
>
> What does this have to do with your charge that VS's
> crossovers are defective ??
>

Greg:

Don't expect a reply any time soon; he's probably (hopefully) been
locked back up in his cage by now. His rantings were so obviously
baseless that I chose to ignore them rather than respond and give them
any credibility.

Cheers,

Jack

[Jim Cate]

In <3386AB...@netrunner.net> "Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)"
<z...@netrunner.net> writes:
>
>Here you are Pavlov!!!

>
>--
>Sunshine Stereo Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 33138
>PASS, GALLO, Chiro, CODA, Straightwire, ESP, NHT, Energy, NEAR,
>Parasound, Carver, Lightstar, Camelot Technology, Shakti, Audible
>Illusions, Quicksilver, Soundesign, Audio Logic Cabasse

_____________________________________-

Steve,
Why is it that every time I see one of your notes on this board, you
are in the middle of a heated argument or controversy? Almost
invariably, you are trying to put somebody down, or tell someone why he
doesn't know his ass from a HITG, etc, etc, etc. Is this a Jewish
thing, or what?

Jim

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Jack W. Hart wrote:

> > What does this have to do with your charge that VS's
> > crossovers are defective ??
> Greg:

> Don't expect a reply any time soon; he's probably (hopefully) been
> locked back up in his cage by now. His rantings were so obviously
> baseless that I chose to ignore them rather than respond and give them
> any credibility.
> Cheers,
> Jack

Jack:
I presume this wasn't directed at me. I never said that the xover or
jumpers or anything else was defective in listening to VR-4's biwired. I
suggested that Pavlov's predictably pavlovian response was patently
predictable :)
VR-4's sound better biwired & there is nothing defective about that.

So who's in the cage Jack? Were you refering to the kook that called
Albert a phony?
Zip
Zip

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

NO! Its a Bronx thing. Ya gotta probem wit dat? :)

BTW, Jim, everytime? Go back & read them all again :)
--

[Jim Cate]

In <33877B...@netrunner.net> "Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)"

<z...@netrunner.net> writes:
>
>> Jim
>
>
>NO! Its a Bronx thing. Ya gotta probem wit dat? :)
>
>BTW, Jim, everytime? Go back & read them all again :)
>--
>Sunshine Stereo, Inc. 9535 Biscayne Blvd. Miami Shores FL 3313

______________________________________________________

OK. Change "every time" to "typically, many, many times, often,
characteristically" etc.

Jim

[Phil]

ae...@flight.els wrote:
>
> Wake up and smell the roses folks. Bi-wiring doesn't do jack s**t.
> If you go and spend a couple hundred bucks or so on an additional run
> of cable, OF COURSE you're going to "hear" the difference. Otherwise,
> you might as well spend another couple of hundred bucks in the butt
> kicking machine.

OK, in a moment of foolishness I'm going to jump into this debate. Now
speaker as an engineer for the last 23 years I doubt that bi-wiring
would have much effect. Actually, I'm not much for bi-amping either on
technical grounds. The theory here is the designer has the best idea how
to interface his speaker to an amp. He should control the means so the
buyer gets the responce he has design to.
Now on the issue ob bi-wiring. Can it help? Maybe! Consider, when you
bi-wire instead of jumper the tweater impedence R(high) is in parallel
with the base impedence R(low). Thus the total impedence Rb:
Rb = R(high)R(low)/[R(high) + R(low)] in series connection, jumper,
the total impedence Rj = R(high) + R(low). If you look at this for most
values of R(high) and R(low) Rb less than Rj. Also Rb will vary less as
R(high) and R(low) change as to frequency. Thus if your amp if sensitive
to these factors the bi-wiring may make a difference.
A second comment here. A lot of people in engineering reject the
comclusions of the objectives in high end audio mainly because the
reason the give sound wierd. But realize are assumption are base on
models. One of the questions you always must ask your self is does your
model fit.
Another problem with wiring is that their goodness is dependent on load
(speakers) and the driver (amp) not just on itself. If the amp design
may asumption (70 ohm cable) and design to it. A "better" (50 ohms)
cable will not work as well as the bad 70 ohm cable.
Hopefully this makes some sense.

Phil

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Wed, 21 May 1997,
Mr. Dealer_who_advertizes_unethically_on_an_opinion_NG

(a.k.a. Steve "Zip" Zipser) wrote:

> Lie number one: McInTIRED has no friends

For once I agree. :-D
--
,
Sebastien

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Wed, 21 May 1997 HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Greg Pavlov wrote:

> >
> > Steve Zipser wrote:
> > :
> > : Actually, we performed this comparison, and found the differences
> > : between bi-wired and jumpered rather profound on the VR-4.5's. On some
> > : of my other speakers, such as the NEAR/s, the difference was almost (or
> > : maybe just was!) non-existant!
> >
> > It would be good if someone from VS explained why this would be so.

Are you holding your breath, Mr. Pavlov? :)

> Okay, here's Albert (addressing you, strangely enough!):

> Subject: Re: VR4: jumper or biwire?

> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Albe...@aol.com
> To: HEA...@ix.netcom.com

[...]

Care to produce the complete, original mail daemon tag of this
transmission?
--
,
Sebastien

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:

> Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 15 May 1997, Johnny Y Boey wrote:
> >
> > > Tried biwiring my Studio 20's. Absolutely no difference. Currently
> > > biwiring my VR4. Absolute improvement.
> >
> > Are you implying there's a design flaw in the crossover network
> > of the VR-4? [You may wish to retort that the listening leading
> > to that conclusion was not done in a _reliable_ manner :) ]
> >
> > According to three speaker designers a friend of mine contacted
> > a year and a half ago, a _competently_ designed crossover makes
> > bi-wiring a futile gadget. And according to Edgar Villchur,
> > bi-wiring is inaudible since the 60's (if not earlier -- my
> > memory is failling me right now).
> > --
>
>

> So what? I can hear a difference, and I'm happy. That's all that
> matters.

At least you could qualify your state of happiness a bit better.
Like "...I'm delusively happy..." :-D
--
,
Sebastien

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Wed, 21 May 1997,

Mr. Dealer_who_advertizes_unethically_on_an_opinion_NG
(a.k.a. Steve "Zip" Zipser) wrote:

> ae...@flight.els wrote:
> >
> > Wake up and smell the roses folks. Bi-wiring doesn't do jack s**t.
> > If you go and spend a couple hundred bucks or so on an additional run
> > of cable, OF COURSE you're going to "hear" the difference. Otherwise,
> > you might as well spend another couple of hundred bucks in the butt
> > kicking machine.
>

> I think it depends on the particulare speakers design. In many cases I
> heard no difference, and in a few cases I heard very obvious

> differences, such as in the VR-4's. Perhaps this is due in part to

> defective crossover design, as Greg Pavlov suggested,

No, Mr. Pavlov did not suggest that. That was suggested/implied
(knowingly or not) by those who said they could hear differences
between single-wiring and bi-wiring. Want names?

> but there is no
> doubt that particular speaker was dramatically better bi-wired. Perhaps
> the designer who is known to lurk these pages would care to explain.

He doesn't have to explain anything. He just gotta ask if the listening
was sighted or not.

--
,
Sebastien

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Sat, 24 May 1997,
Mr. Dearler_who_advertizes_unethically_on_an_opinion_NG

(a.k.a. Steve "Zip" Zipser) wrote:

> Greg Pavlov wrote:
>
> > Jack W. Hart (jwh...@premier.net) wrote:
> > : I've listened to the VR-4's both with a "jumper" and bi-wired, both with
> > : Cardas "Golden Cross" and the DH Labs "Silver Sonics," both of which are
> > : EXCELLENT with the Von Schweikert's and easily out-performed the
> > : "jumpered" configuration in dynamics, bass extension and soundstaging.
>

> > The jumper wires were defective.
>

> I doubt that his jumpers were defective, Greg.
> However, your conclusions certainly are suspect :)

OK, then what would explain such an improvement (if real improvement
there is) in going from the jumpered to the unjumpered (i.e. bi-wired)
configuration? Jumpered at the speaker terminals or jumpered at the
amp terminals (a.k.a. bi-wiring), what's the difference? A few
milliohms of speaker cable impedance (assuming untweaked cables are
used)? If so, is the crossover network that much marginally designed?
Tell us, Mr. Dealer_who_advertizes_unethically_on_an_opinion_NG,
quelle est la _vraie_ raison pour une si grande amelioriation du "son"?

NHMB,
--
,
Sebastien Playing: "Trouble Man" (Buddy Guy)

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
>

The next sixty secons is a test, to see if you can
(a) stay awake while reading a McInTIRED post (and)
(b) To_see_if_you_don't_go_insane_while_reading_with_these_stupid_
underlines_between_every______WORD :)

BTW, dude, I said aske the manufaturer to answer the question about the
cross-over & biwiring.

Your opinion is 100% WORTHLESS since you NEVER EVEN HEARD THE SPEAKERS
OR THE COMPARISON.

Finally, Ethics are in the eyes of the beholder and you see as well as
you hear :)

--

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

What are you suggesting? Some deception on my part?

Brian

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)]

Brian:
Don't bother responding to McInTIRED. He thinks he is a doubting
Thomas, but he's really the Alfred E Neuman of r.a.m!
Zip

[tkri...@concentric.net]

In article <01bc673e$3c0f4c00$0c1482ce@etf>,

"Doug Plumb" <E...@speedline.ca> wrote:
>
> > Okay, here's Albert (addressing you, strangely enough!):
> > Subject: Re: VR4: jumper or biwire?
> > Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Albe...@aol.com
> > To: HEA...@ix.netcom.com
> >

> YOU are a fraud AVS !!!.
>
> In case you didn't understand that, YOU ARE A FRAUD AVS ! Ever study
> magnetic fields...magnetic field interaction ??? What rock did you crawl

> out from under ??? Ever hear of superposition ??. Do you know that air is
> non magnetic ?..it has a linear hysterisis curve for gawd sakes, the
> different magnetic fields DO NOT interfere with each other!!. How much do
> you sell this stuff you design for anyway ??
>
> Could I please have one of your "technical" reports to comment on and post
> ? Did you even go to high school ??
>
> Doug Plumb B. Eng. (I can't wait to see your technical report!!!)

For a fraud, he sure designs some really nice loudspeakers!!!

It is one thing to talk/write like a "great engineer," it's a totally
different thing to design an effective product. IMO, a "fraud" is one
who talks the talk but fails to walk the walk- Talks about the design of
something which in reality yields mediocre performance.

If magnetic fields did not interfere with each other, then what would
cause two magnets to either repel or attract each other??

Todd Krieger

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

[Doug Plumb]

Terry <ter...@exis.net> wrote in article
<01bc6857$20be09e0$134cfccd@terry>...

>
>
> Greg Pavlov <pav...@sdac.harvard.edu> wrote
> > In article "Doug Plumb" <E...@speedline.ca> writes:
> > >

> > >YOU are a fraud AVS !!!.
> > >
> > >In case you didn't understand that, YOU ARE A FRAUD AVS ! Ever study
> > >magnetic fields...magnetic field interaction ??? What rock did you
crawl

> > >out from under ??? .....
> > >
> >
> > I kinda thought that that "letter" was a put-on by AVS or Brian.
> > You don't really think that it was serious, do you ??
> >

I did yes. I apologize. But..hey..given those ads and some of the
testimonials..anything is possible.
I got a reply from George Cardas. Hes at the show right now but is going to
come back and explain to me how cables are better.

He also said that this was a bad place to be wrong. He sells "digital"
cables. This promises to be interesting.

[Jack W. Hart]

While I was CERTAIN than Albert has more important things to do than to
write such a post, I didn't waste my time responding to such an assinine
piece. When you accused Albert of being a "fraud," you lost ALL
credibility with me. While I'd be the first to admit that not everyone
is going to like Albert's speakers as much as I (and my audiophile
friends) do, there is NO basis for such a charge.

Coincidentally, I'm using the George's Cardas "Golden Cross" be-wired
speaker cables with the VR-4.5's and getting great results.

Glad to see you came "back down to earth."

Cheers,

Jack

[tkri...@concentric.net]

In article <3385DD...@netrunner.net>,
"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)" <z...@netrunner.net> wrote:

>
> Doug Plumb wrote:
>
> > In case you didn't understand that, YOU ARE A FRAUD AVS ! Ever study
> > magnetic fields...magnetic field interaction ??? What rock did you crawl

> > out from under ??? Ever hear of superposition ??. Do you know that air is
> > non magnetic ?..it has a linear hysterisis curve for gawd sakes, the
> > different magnetic fields DO NOT interfere with each other!!. How much do
> > you sell this stuff you design for anyway ??
> >
> > Could I please have one of your "technical" reports to comment on and post
> > ? Did you even go to high school ??
> >
>

> Doug:
> Albert may be many things, but he is a very good speaker designer. He
> is not a fraud. Could he have been referring to back EMF, by the way?
> Cheers
> Zip
>

The theory behind bi-wiring is simple: Take a wire with two signals
riding on it. One is a bass signal- say under 100 Hz. The other is an
HF signal- say around 10,000 Hz. (The frequencies are used as an
example.) Albert touched on one degrading effect of using a single wire
carrying both signals.

Whenever a change in current occurs along a wire, a magnetic field is
formed. (This phenomenon basically is what makes dynamic loudspeakers and
electric motors work.) Conversely, whenever a wire is subjected to an
external changing magnetic field, a current is introduced into the wire.
(The phenominon makes electric generators possible.) This is known as
electromagnetics, the science behind electro-motive force (EMF.)

Now let's go back to the single wire and two signals traveling along it.
Since each signal is an AC signal acting on a load (the loudspeaker), the
resultant AC current causes a cyclic change in magnetic field along the
wire. (If a sinusoidal current exists on a wire, a sinusoidally changing
magnetic field is present as well. With square wave signals, the
magnetic field that is generated will resemble "spikes" of alternating
polarity.) Since the signals are of different frequencies, each signal
basically is generating its own cyclic magnetic field. And since
magnetic fields do interact on each other, one cyclic magnetic field
introduces "modulation distortion" on the other and vice versa. Since a
wire will generate a current in the presence of a changing magnetic
field, if that magnetic field cycles in a modulated manner, the
modulation distortion will be passed on to that current; which, as
mentioned before, is the signal acting on a load.

The theory behind bi-wiring is to have one wire carry the low frequency
current, the other carry the high-frequency current. (The crossover
provides an "open circuit" to the low frequencies for one wire, high
frequencies for the other; so each wire will pass no current to the low
or high frequencies.) Since in most cases, the crossover frequency is
between 100 and 10,000 Hz, and the wires in a bi-wire setup are far
enough apart so magnetic field interactions between the two separate
wires (mutual inductance) are minimal; the modulation distortion on the
100 and 10,0000 Hz signals is virtually eliminated. The lack of LF
current (and its modulation-causing magnetic fields) on the wire also may
explain why many people think minimonitors generally sound more detailed,
with more precise imaging and soundstaging, compared to their full-range
counterparts.

Bi-wiring will improve the sound of most systems. Factors which may have
an effect on the improvement are: Negative feedback of an amplifier (the
difference would be more profound with amps with greater negative
feedback); the LF load impedance of the speaker (the lower the impedance,
the greater the improvement); inductance of the cable (Less inductance
means smaller magnetic fields- Lower inductance cables will make the
difference less noticeable- an ideal choice if you cannot bi-wire); and
crossover frequency (dependent on severity of modulation distortion
versus frequency for a given system.)

Hope this helps!!

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

Jack W. Hart wrote:> > >
>
> While I was CERTAIN than Albert has more important things to do than to
> write such a post, I didn't waste my time responding to such an assinine
> piece.

Albert didn't post that to RAO, it was an e-mail to me in response to
Greg Pavlov's request for information on bi-wiring from somebody at
VSR.

Albert may have lots of important things to do, but he's apparently
never too busy to respond to mail from a customer. That's one of the
things I like most about him.

Brian

[Terry]

HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote in article <338DA5...@ix.netcom.com>...

Brian:

I couldn't agree more! I've written to him a couple of times and he has
always responded promptly. I'm not sure if this is normal in the audio
business, but it sure as hell impressed me.

Terry

>

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Wed,
Mr. Dearler_who_advertizes_unethically_on_an_opinion_NG

(a.k.a. Steve "Zip" Zipser) wrote:

> Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
>
> > From AVS's webpage, bi-wiring is only recommended, not required, so I
> > would imagine that bus bars are included, aren't they?
> > Sebastard McInTIRED

Bastardization of this _opinion_ NG came with those dealers
who started advertizing unethically, disparaging folks having
opinions based in facts and misrepresenting/misconstruing
published results for personal gain. These are the real
bastards.
--
,
Sebastien

[Sebastien P. McIntyre]

On Wed, 28 May 1997 HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:

> >
> > On Wed, 21 May 1997 HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Okay, here's Albert (addressing you, strangely enough!):
> >
> > > Subject: Re: VR4: jumper or biwire?
> > > Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
> > > From: Albe...@aol.com
> > > To: HEA...@ix.netcom.com
> >

> > [...]
> >
> > Care to produce the complete, original mail daemon tag of this
> > transmission?
>

> What are you suggesting? Some deception on my part?

_You_ are suggesting this. I only asked for a transmission tag.

So, will you post it?

--
,
Sebastien <able to tell a rat when he smells one>

[Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo)]

Learn to quote correctly, McInTIRED, you dummy! You attributed a quote
to me that was not from me.

Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
>
> On Wed,

> Mr. Dearler_who_advertizes_unethically_on_an_opinion_NG

> (a.k.a. Steve "Zip" Zipser) wrote:
>
> > Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
> >

> > > From AVS's webpage, bi-wiring is only recommended, not required, so I
> > > would imagine that bus bars are included, aren't they?
> > > Sebastard McInTIRED
>
> Bastardization of this _opinion_ NG came with those dealers
> who started advertizing unethically, disparaging folks having
> opinions based in facts and misrepresenting/misconstruing
> published results for personal gain. These are the real
> bastards.
> --
> ,
> Sebastien

--

[HEA...@ix.netcom.com]

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Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:

>
> On Wed, 28 May 1997 HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> > Sebastien P. McIntyre wrote:
> > >

> > > On Wed, 21 May 1997 HEA...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Okay, here's Albert (addressing you, strangely enough!):
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: VR4: jumper or biwire?
> > > > Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
> > > > From: Albe...@aol.com
> > > > To: HEA...@ix.netcom.com
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Care to produce the complete, original mail daemon tag of this
> > > transmission?
> >
> > What are you suggesting? Some deception on my part?
>
> _You_ are suggesting this. I only asked for a transmission tag.
>
> So, will you post it?
>
> --
> ,
> Sebastien <able to tell a rat when he smells one>

Smell yourself then, you fucking suspicious little prick. I expect a
grovelingly abject apology from you, and if you are any kind of a man,
you'll deliver it. Not holding my breath, though.

Brian

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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:53:52 -0400 (EDT)

Message-ID: <97051922524...@emout12.mail.aol.com>
To: HEA...@ix.netcom.com

Subject: Re: VR4: jumper or biwire?

X-Mozilla-Status: 0011

Greg, thanks for the letter. If you have read any of my technical papers, you
know my approach to design is quite different from many other designers. One
of my interests is in optimizing the transparency of the final design, and I
originally worked section by section. I developed each of the frequency bands
independantly and used completely seperated crossovers. Later, when putting
the sections together, I noticed that combining the crossovers' input and
output leads resulted in a 'homogenized' and veiled sound quality. At first
I thought that it might have been caused by magnetic interaction of the
inductors even though I had not put any of the crossover parts in close
proximity to each other.
Next I tried placing all of the crossover parts together on one board in
close proximity in similar fashion to 'commercial' speaker systems, which
resulted in even less transparency. This version did not offer enough
transparency to enable one to hear changes in interconnects, plugs, speaker
placement, CD tweaks such as green paint, cryogenic treatment, etc. etc.

After experimentation, I decided that these effects were caused by the
dominance of the bass signals' greater magnetic field strength over the
midrange/treble's field when combined in the signal leads. It is easy to
forget that music becomes an alternating current flowing in wires, and that
subsequently there is a magnetic field building and collapsing several
thousand times every second. By studying spectrographs of the signal, it is
quite obvious that the bulk of the magnetic field strength occurs primarily
below 300 cycles per second, and that the power ratios are something like

10:1 when comparing energy at 100Hz vs. 10kHz in a typical symphonic work.

For this reason, it follows that the the stronger magnetic field below 300Hz
modulates the much weaker one above 300Hz. Biwiring seperates these ground
paths to the speaker, therefore eliminating the magnetic field interaction.
The VR-4 is transparent enough to let you hear this effect, while many
speakers I have tested are not. Best regards, AVS

--------------2A6668842B37--