Droppers
MIchael Haney
Pardon my newbie-ness but what is a dropper? I'm guessing it is a
player created only to play a cheater that wants to boost his score.
Is this correct?
Michael Haney
Mathman@FIBS
William C. Bitting
MIchael Haney (g...@virtualtoystore.com) wrote:
: Pardon my newbie-ness but what is a dropper? I'm guessing it is a
: Is this correct?: Michael Haney: Mathman@FIBS
Far more usually means someone who has all but lost a match, then "drops"
the connection to avoid having his/her rating reduced, and of course, the
opponent is cheated of what he/she has won. wcb on FIBS
Robert D. Johnson
MIchael Haney wrote:
>
> Pardon my newbie-ness but what is a dropper? I'm guessing it is a
> player created only to play a cheater that wants to boost his score.
> Is this correct?
>
> Michael Haney
> Mathman@FIBS
A "dropper" is a FIBS player who quits before losing a match
and never resumes the match to finish it. The "show saved"
command will list the unfinished game for several weeks before
it automatically becomes obsolete and withdrawn.
A dropper may try to use "invite you 7" or
"invite you unlimited" to cancel the saved match
and start a new match. In that case FIBS will warn
you the match would be cancelled if you "join dropper".
The proper way to resume is "invite name", without a
number and without the word "unlimited".
--
Robert D. Johnson (rjohnson) rjoh...@cvbnet.cv.com
http://www.cv.com/
Donald Kahn
Hard to imagine anything so creepy. But the fix is simple.
A dropper should be credited with a loss, pending completion of the
match.
The droppee does not get a win, however, because some of these guys
would find ways to get YOU to drop (to cure a "hangup", let us say),
never come back and pick up a cheap win.
But you have to feel sorry for such people.
Donald Kahn
Roberto Gobbo
axe1...@aol.com (AXE111111) wrote:
>[...]
>Be carefull people..
>DOWN WITH DROPPERS
Please, every day there are message on r.g.b. about
droppers..stop that, and speak about backgammon and
some interesting position and cube decision.
It is sure more constructive.
Thanks
Roberto Gobbo aka bibi
PS: how can you, axe1...@aol.com (AXE111111),
speak about a dropper if you don't say who are
you? At least, who are you on fibs...
AXE111111
Wanted to report a FIBS dropper.. DORIN.. He will start a game and end
it. Even if they are winning by points but if you are winning because of
the double cube.. I have tried many times to resume the game and get a
message "I can only play one game. I am on my dads account and don't have
time to play.. Then they go on and join another game for the same amount
of points you were playing for..
Donald Kahn
nyc...@worldnet.att.net (NYCGuy) wrote:
>don...@easynet.co.uk (Donald Kahn) wrote:
>>Hard to imagine anything so creepy. But the fix is simple.
>>A dropper should be credited with a loss, pending completion of the
>>match.
>>Donald Kahn
>NetGammon has instituted a policy for adjusting player ratings based on the
>disposition of the saved match. The number and types of saved matches each
>person has is also available for viewing before inviting someone to play. Below
>are the relevant portions from the readme.txt included with v 1.04):
>------------
>------------
>VERY IMPORTANT : The old unfinished games will be deleted if they have not been
>resumed in the last two months!
>All matches started in June or after will be deleted with the following rules :
>1) if the match score is equal :
> no elo changes.
>2) if a player leads AND the current game is not started
> both players' elos are changed. If one leads 3 to 2 in a 5 point match the
>elos are computed as if it was a 3 point match.
I'm afraid this will make the problem worse. If what we read about
these idiots is true, they will quit as soon as they lead the match.
If I could get a WIN credit for every match I ever led in, I would be
the champion of all time.
I suppose the system technology is not presently available, but no
doubt soon it will become possible to keep record of the general
conduct of all players in this respect, periodically analyze it
programmatically, and to discipline obvious offenders by threatening
to wipe out their records, or bar them from competition under the
offending identity.
Of course, in the good old USA, no doubt there will be damage suits
against the system operators for causing irreparable harm to the
offenders' reputations, and for depriving them of their civil rights.
Donald Kahn
"If you never get gammoned, you're not taking enough"
(Epitaph found on a pauper's grave)
>3) if a player leads and there is a game in progress
> - if the current cube value + the underdog's score < leader's score :
AXE111111
Cyberdude, axe82, and axe111111
Droppers should be posted somewhere and this is the best place for it. It
is about backgammon. Do you want to play another person and have them drop
on you? Do you want to lose the points? Neither do I..
Roberto Sierra
AXE111111 (axe1...@aol.com) wrote:
: Droppers should be posted somewhere and this is the best place for it. It
: is about backgammon. Do you want to play another person and have them drop
: on you? Do you want to lose the points? Neither do I..
Droppers should be reported -- I've been fortunate so far in not
meeting a dropper (or perhaps I just don't realize it).
In the absence of a separate FIBS-related newsgroup, why not just post
with 'Dropper:' or 'FIBS:' in the subject line to distinguish yourself
from theoretical discussion? Simple solution to dropper-related
messages as well as FIBS-related details on the whole.
(Bert_Sierra on FIBS)
--
\\|//
- - "Information gladly given, but safety requires
o o avoiding unnecessary conversation." -- MUNI
J roberto sierra
O tempered microdesigns NOTICE:
\_/ san francisco, calif. None of the ideas expressed herein
be...@netcom.com have anything to do with reality.
AXE111111
Nothing happens when reporting a dropper. I have tried that.. The response
was 1. you have you be careful who you invite or accpect an invite from.
2. The game will be taken off the computer in 90 days..
User Support
AXE111111 (axe1...@aol.com) wrote:
: Nothing happens when reporting a dropper. I have tried that.. The response
: was 1. you have you be careful who you invite or accpect an invite from.
: 2. The game will be taken off the computer in 90 days..
The solution to droppers is obvious. Game Adjudication. This could
either be manual, if there are any insane volunteers, or automatic, which
might require writing an interface to loner or jellyfish. Any inevitable
match result (mathematical certainty of a definite winner) should be
processed automatically, rating points added and subtracted, and the saved
game removed.
Games which are not mathematical locks might require some other
parameters; maybe the interface program could do rollouts, and decide on a
winner based on the probabilities. If this is performed when the game
would normally be deleted (100 days), the asssigned loser can have no
complaints. If he thought he had a chance to win, he should have gone for
it.
So, who wants to code it?
jag
In article <51jht5$o...@netaxs.com>,
r...@netaxs.com (User Support) wrote:
>The solution to droppers is obvious. Game Adjudication. This could
>either be manual, if there are any insane volunteers, or automatic, which
>might require writing an interface to loner or jellyfish. Any inevitable
>match result (mathematical certainty of a definite winner) should be
>processed automatically, rating points added and subtracted, and the saved
>game removed.
>
>Games which are not mathematical locks might require some other
>parameters; maybe the interface program could do rollouts, and decide on a
>winner based on the probabilities. If this is performed when the game
>would normally be deleted (100 days), the asssigned loser can have no
>complaints. If he thought he had a chance to win, he should have gone for
>it.
>
>So, who wants to code it?
I absolutely, totally and utterly object to adjudication of unfinished
matches either by jellyfish's (or any other computer program's) calculated
equities or by roll-outs.
I really think far too much of this is being made, I've had perhaps a dozen
people drop on me in the year that I've been on FIBS and yes, its
frustrating especially after a 1 hour, 1-point lagathon and no, its not
worth the hassle either of recoding the server to automate match
adjudication even when a match is mathematically beyond one player or of
trying to persuade volunteers to adjudicate unfinished matches.
The only change to FIBS I would like to see is being able to continue an
unfinished match by being allowed to take your turn in your opponent's
absence, and while FIBS remains a free server it is down to marvin what
changes are to be made.
jag
James Grenier
Print Production Manager, HLT Publications & The HLT Group Ltd
http://www.hltpublications.co.uk
http://www.holborncollege.ac.uk
Franco Forleo
r...@netaxs.com (User Support) wrote:
>AXE111111 (axe1...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Nothing happens when reporting a dropper. I have tried that.. The response
>: was 1. you have you be careful who you invite or accpect an invite from.
>: 2. The game will be taken off the computer in 90 days..
>The solution to droppers is obvious. Game Adjudication. This could
>either be manual, if there are any insane volunteers, or automatic, which
>might require writing an interface to loner or jellyfish. Any inevitable
>match result (mathematical certainty of a definite winner) should be
>processed automatically, rating points added and subtracted, and the saved
>game removed.
>Games which are not mathematical locks might require some other
>parameters; maybe the interface program could do rollouts, and decide on a
>winner based on the probabilities. If this is performed when the game
>would normally be deleted (100 days), the asssigned loser can have no
>complaints. If he thought he had a chance to win, he should have gone for
>it.
>So, who wants to code it?
My suggestion to this problem is to have more tournaments such as
"bibi's", this way players are forced to see the match through. It is
most frustrating to be dropped or totaly ignored so as to force you
off and choose another apponent.
My other suggestion would be to start schools where you are admited
and put into seeding groups. This way one earns FIBS points and at the
same time work ones way up the ladder in the group. At the end of a
season either be promoted or demoted to another league.
This way one would respect the game and apponent or else risk being
booted out of the school.
Franco Forleo <pizz...@aztec.co.za> South Africa (pizzaman on FIBS)
Patti Beadles
In article <51jht5$o...@netaxs.com>, User Support <r...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>The solution to droppers is obvious. Game Adjudication.
The solution to droppers is obvious... there is no solution. I
haven't seen a new proposal in years, and all of the old proposals
have serious flaws.
My personal solution is not to play anyone with <400 experience that I
don't know personally, unless they've entered a valid email address.
I haven't had anyone drop on me since I started this policy.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles | Knowing how to play well doesn't
pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com | win-- you have to actually do it.
http://www.gammon.com/ |
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | No longer pa...@velo.com
Illium
In article <51mcu4$i...@aztec.co.za>,
pizz...@aztec.co.za (Franco Forleo) wrote:
Hi Fibsters
The problem is that dropping is only one of the many forms of cheating on
FIBS. But it's an obvious one, and if the ratings are to mean anything it
should be discouraged. If the offender does not respond to reasonable
requests for the match to be concluded within a certain period then the
obvious sanction is to reset their rating to 1000 and their experience to
400 as a reminder. As far as I know no one has been barred from FIBS for
cheating, the only person I heard of being barred was someone who pinched
marvin's nick.
Other obvious infringements should be similarly dealt with.
Regards
William Hill, illium on FIBS.
Kamen Penev
How about FIBS maintaining a "Dropper Index" -- the ratio of the
unfinished matches to the completed ones per each player (appropriately
scaled). That way you can recognize the dropper in advance and refuse to
play them.
Sorry if this has already been discussed. My newsserver doesn't keep
this group for too long.
Cheers,
--
Kamen
Jason Lee
And then g...@virtualtoystore.com (Michael Haney) quoth:
>
>This unfairly punishes newer players. They will have no one else to play
>but newbies.
If they were to put their email address in, no problem, right?
>1) All players should make a point to check "Show Saved" each time they log
>in, and then finish those matches if possible. This will make the droppers
>even more obvious, as they will be the only players with long "saved" lists.
Can you see MY saved match list?
>2) The operators of FIBS should delete any players who have not completed
>*any* matches within a given time period (say 3 months).
I think this is a good idea on it's own merits.
>This should elliminate most droppers who are naturally lazy people.
This doesn't make any sense.
>Another side-effect
>would be that the rankings would be trimmed down to actual current players,
>and the overhead on FIBS would be decreased. Think about it: just one
>completed match in 3 months and your account stays current; that is
>reasonable.
Yeah, I find this reasonable.
JLee
--
Jason Lee | _. _ _ ._ | _ _
jp...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu \_|(_|_>(_)| | |_(/_(/_
Michael Haney
In article <pattibDx...@netcom.com>, pat...@netcom.com says...
>My personal solution is not to play anyone with <400 experience that I
>don't know personally, unless they've entered a valid email address.
>I haven't had anyone drop on me since I started this policy.
>
>-Patti
>--
> Patti Beadles | Knowing how to play well doesn't
>pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com | win-- you have to actually do it.
> http://www.gammon.com/ |
> or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | No longer pa...@velo.com
This unfairly punishes newer players. They will have no one else to play
but newbies. I personally am very thankful that more experienced and higher
rated players have taken the time to play me. It is the best way to learn.
I suggest the following:
1) All players should make a point to check "Show Saved" each time they log
in, and then finish those matches if possible. This will make the droppers
even more obvious, as they will be the only players with long "saved" lists.
2) The operators of FIBS should delete any players who have not completed
*any* matches within a given time period (say 3 months). This should
elliminate most droppers who are naturally lazy people. Another side-effect
would be that the rankings would be trimmed down to actual current players,
and the overhead on FIBS would be decreased. Think about it: just one
completed match in 3 months and your account stays current; that is
reasonable.
O.K. I'll shut up now. Any feedback?
Michael Haney
Mathman@FIBS
Kit Woolsey
Michael Haney (g...@virtualtoystore.com) wrote:
: In article <pattibDx...@netcom.com>, pat...@netcom.com says...
: >My personal solution is not to play anyone with <400 experience that I
: >don't know personally, unless they've entered a valid email address.
: >I haven't had anyone drop on me since I started this policy.
: >
: >-Patti
: >--
: > Patti Beadles | Knowing how to play well doesn't
: >pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com | win-- you have to actually do it.
: > http://www.gammon.com/ |
: > or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | No longer pa...@velo.com
: This unfairly punishes newer players. They will have no one else to play
: but newbies. I personally am very thankful that more experienced and higher
: rated players have taken the time to play me. It is the best way to learn.
Why does this punish a new player? A new player is quite capable of
entering their e-mail address. Personally, I think EVERYBODY who plays
on FIBS should enter their e-mail address. I know I am very slow to play
somebody I don't know if they haven't entered an e-mail address, while if
they have I have no problem playing them.
Kit
pcr...@acad.ursinus.edu
If there was a command to show the saved matches of a potential
opponent, you could see if they have amassed a large number of
saved matches that were one game from being losses. I think most
droppers would be easy to spot given this command option.
-perhof
Graham Trevor Price
In <51tf5e$1c...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> jp...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu
(Jason Lee) writes:
>>2) The operators of FIBS should delete any players who have not
completed
>>*any* matches within a given time period (say 3 months).
>
>I think this is a good idea on it's own merits.
>
I don't think it's a very good idea. I tend not to bother checking
saved games that often because they aren't that important to me. I'm
sure the percentage wins and losses of saved games would not make much
of an impact so if I log on and if a saved player is there and
available I will try to resume but I often don't check either.
Since basically I like to log on and just play 1 long or 2 short
matches I'm not interested in investing more time waiting around to
resume a saved match. ( I discovered spending too much time
( especially playing) on the server wears you out after a while)
Of course I often stay a while and watch matches and if I see a
saved player available or a saved player requests a resume I will.
I get more enjoyment out of playing a good game or having a good
match than I do out of some abstract rating point gain or loss because
you can evaluate your play and cube strategy but a number is just a
number and plus or minus 60-100 pts doesnt mean a heck of a lot.
So I guess my point is why should I be forced to try to hunt down
players to complete games I am not concerned about under threat of
having my account deleted and why waste somebody else's time in
monitoring all this.
Graham.
Susan Jane Hogarth
Illium wrote:
> As far as I know no one has been barred from FIBS for
> cheating, the only person I heard of being barred was someone who pinched
> marvin's nick.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
At the risk of exposing myself as an uncultured American, what does this
*mean*?? It sounds pretty bizarre, I have to tell you. However, I've
been wanting to learn it speak British; this might be a good time to
start :-)
--
Susan
http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/users/s/sjhogart/public/home.html
Her face hangs in portrait
on the post-office wall;
She's stuck in my heart now
where my blood belongs.
TMBG
Graham Trevor Price
In <324298...@unity.ncsu.edu> Susan Jane Hogarth
<sjho...@unity.ncsu.edu> writes:
>Illium wrote:
^^^^^^^^^
>> marvin's nick.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>At the risk of exposing myself as an uncultured American, what does
this
>*mean*?? It sounds pretty bizarre, I have to tell you. However, I've
>been wanting to learn it speak British; this might be a good time to
>start :-)
( the output of the who command),
Jason Lee
And then gpr...@netcom.ca(Graham Trevor Price) quoth:
>In <51tf5e$1c...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> jp...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu
>(Jason Lee) writes:
>
>>>2) The operators of FIBS should delete any players who have not
>completed
>>>*any* matches within a given time period (say 3 months).
>>
>>I think this is a good idea on it's own merits.
>>
>I don't think it's a very good idea.
You just gave a bunch of arguments about tracking down people in saved
matches. That's not what this is about.
The above says: If you have not completed ANY matches... not saved matches,
ANY matches in 3 months, you will be deleted. That has nothing whatsoever
to do with saved matches.
Graham Trevor Price
In <52206v$2v...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> jp...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu
(Jason Lee) writes:
>>(Jason Lee) writes:
>The above says: If you have not completed ANY matches... not saved
matches,
>ANY matches in 3 months, you will be deleted. That has nothing
whatsoever
>to do with saved matches.
>
>JLee
OK. I agree with that although I think it already exists. A friend of
mine had not played for a long time and I noticed his account was
deleted.
The problem with droppers is that if their goal is to get a character
with a high rating they will continually log on under different names
to take advantage of the bonus system and try to reach their target
when they get a name that goes on a winning streak leaving a trail of
names that probably will never play another game.
( I also think people with multiple names if they play under both are
as bad as droppers simply because if a player is 1800 under 1 name and
1550 under another and you beat (or lose to) the 1550 character ...)
Graham
Craig Connell
r...@netaxs.com (User Support) wrote:
>AXE111111 (axe1...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Nothing happens when reporting a dropper. I have tried that.. The response
>: was 1. you have you be careful who you invite or accpect an invite from.
>: 2. The game will be taken off the computer in 90 days..
>The solution to droppers is obvious. Game Adjudication. This could
>either be manual, if there are any insane volunteers, or automatic, which
>might require writing an interface to loner or jellyfish. Any inevitable
>match result (mathematical certainty of a definite winner) should be
>processed automatically, rating points added and subtracted, and the saved
>game removed.
>Games which are not mathematical locks might require some other
>parameters; maybe the interface program could do rollouts, and decide on a
>winner based on the probabilities. If this is performed when the game
>would normally be deleted (100 days), the asssigned loser can have no
>complaints. If he thought he had a chance to win, he should have gone for
>it.
>So, who wants to code it?
I like this idea - I get Jellyfish to finish my matches for me - my
rating is sure to go up
Joe Terrasi
Droppers solved.
I am uploading a permanent upgrade to FIBS.COM that will electrocute the
hideous droppers. It will also perform injurious mayhem on the following
people:
* People who post to r.g.b about droppers
* People who honestly believe FIBS is rigged
* People who kill blue whales
* Communists
* Republicans
* Anybody watching a Ross Perot infomercial
* Andy Rooney
* People shouting in Greek
* Michael Jackson fans
* People with big teeth
* The elderly
I hope you enjoy it.
It's a game. Open your window and breathe a bit. (LA FIBS players
excepted).
Stephen Turner
Kit Woolsey wrote:
>
> Personally, I think EVERYBODY who plays
> on FIBS should enter their e-mail address. I know I am very slow to play
> somebody I don't know if they haven't entered an e-mail address, while if
> they have I have no problem playing them.
>
... and that should be enough incentive for anyone to enter their address!
--
Stephen R. E. Turner
Stochastic Networks Group, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge
e-mail: sr...@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/home.html
"You may notice that your Customer Reference Number has changed" British Gas
illium
In article <3247CC...@statslab.cam.ac.uk>,
Stephen Turner <sr...@statslab.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
Hi Threadsters
Firstly, I don't know how to enter my Email address, I didn't know it
wasn't displayed until I did a whois on myself. Secondly. you do know that
Email addresses can be faked, or are you going to Email everyone before you
play them?. I think my IP address whills.demon.co.uk is just as relievant.
There was a suggestion that in order to avoid dropper you should only play
people that you know, as far as I'm concerned this would be impracticle as
I don't know a single person on FIBS personnally. I've played over 500
matches on FIBS and only had 4 people drop on me, weighing this against the
30 or 40 friends I've made I consider it a good trade off. I would suggest
that player who only play a circle of close friends are probably negating
the whole idea of FIBS as a global communication. The only restriction I
place on who I play is on the length of the match( 5 or over), that way I
figure I get to make at least one cube decision.
Still, as long as dropping goes unpunished cheats will fell quite free to
continue to use it. But at least with a dropper I only get stung once:-)
Regards
William Hill, illium on FIBS, whill on NOBS.
Patti Beadles
In article <AE6F5C4B...@whills.demon.co.uk>,
illium <ill...@whills.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Firstly, I don't know how to enter my Email address, I didn't know it
>wasn't displayed until I did a whois on myself. Secondly. you do know that
>Email addresses can be faked, or are you going to Email everyone before you
>play them?. I think my IP address whills.demon.co.uk is just as relievant.
A hostname (technically not an IP address) of whills.demon.co.uk is
descriptive. One of netcom7.netcom.com or dynip2-37.someprovider.com
isn't. Yes, email addresses can easily be lied about (as the
northwest missouri folk currently illustrate), but I can do a fairly
good job of spotting the obvious fakes.
Personally, one of the many reasons that I won't play with a newcomer
who hasn't entered an address is that doing so illustrates that the
person has taken the time to become familiar with the system. It sort
of illustrates good citizenship-- the user has spent some time looking
through the help to get an idea of what is possible.
Beyond that, though, it's just an indicator... I've *never* had someone
who has entered a legit-looking email address abandon a match with me.
Not once.
-Patti
P.S. I sometimes get tempted to enter a bang path, for old-times
sake. :-)
Farhan Malik
pat...@netcom.com (Patti Beadles) writes:
>Beyond that, though, it's just an indicator... I've *never* had someone
>who has entered a legit-looking email address abandon a match with me.
>Not once.
The rudest experience I've ever encountered on FIBS was with
someone with over 1600 experience and AN EMAIL ADDRESS ENTERED which
looked legitimate. The person dropped our game trailing 4-0 to 5. He
had had some unfavorable dice but there was no animosity of any sort
between us. I gave the benefit of the doubt assuming some network
problem and asked him to resume next I saw him. He said, "Sure.
Right after this game." I wait for him to finish his game and then
invite him to resume the match. He doesn't join. After two or three
minutes he simply logs out. Next time I see him he won't even reply
to my inquiries as to whether he'd like to finish the match. I've run
across the occassional dropper but never had someone actually waste my
time in the above manner by having me wait around to resume a game he
has no intention of finishing.
An email address entered is no guarantee of anything. It may
cut down the odds of encountering a dropper but there are always going
to be jerks out there and some will have email addresses entered.
Come to think of it of the 4 or 5 droppers I've encountered in my
3,000+ exp on FIBS two had email addresses entered.
scriabin on FIBS
Black Russian
In article <52jrq3$s...@amenti.rutgers.edu>, mal...@amenti.rutgers.edu
(Farhan Malik) wrote:
Same with sguarao.He is a mjor dropper !