Support of USB Memory stick
Rudolf Wingert
Is there some support for USB memory sticks under OpenVMS 7.3-1?
Best regards Rudolf Wingert
Fred Kleinsorge
We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us know
that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if it is worth
qualifying the logic and supporting it.
"Rudolf Wingert" <w...@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message
news:000901c3fd23$255891b0$994614ac@wat153...
John Smith
> Do you have a requirement for one?
>
> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us
> know that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if
> it is worth qualifying the logic and supporting it.
There are a number of good and possible uses for a USB stick under VMS
Biometric token (fingerprint reader)
Removable encrypted data store
RAM disk
Licensing token
Larry Kilgallen
> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:
>> Do you have a requirement for one?
>>
>> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us
>> know that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if
>> it is worth qualifying the logic and supporting it.
>
>
> There are a number of good and possible uses for a USB stick under VMS
>
> Biometric token (fingerprint reader)
There are better USB devices for that than a memory stick.
In fact, I can't think of any manner in which a memory stick helps.
> Removable encrypted data store
Encrypted would seem to have little to do with it, making this
the same as your next point.
> RAM disk
Yes, memory sticks can be used as memory sticks. Apparently VMS Development
has not heard from any customers with a real application in this area.
> Licensing token
Huh ? The essence of memory sticks is that they can be replicated !!!
JF Mezei
> There are a number of good and possible uses for a USB stick under VMS
>
> Biometric token (fingerprint reader)
> Removable encrypted data store
> RAM disk
> Licensing token
How about handling digital cameras ?
Rudolf Wingert
Memory Sticks are an easy way to exchange data between different
platforms without an network. Within our institute, we do have different
networks (internal and internet connected), with no physical connection
between both. All of our OpenVMS computers are on the internal net. So
we have to transfer data (including ERRLOGs for failure handling,
patches ...) from Openvms to Windows or vice versus. Diskette is to
small for transfer. If we could use USB sticks, then we could use PCDISK
tool to write FAT16 data to the stick and read them under Windows. Also
would it be good possibility to transfer data to an standalone computer
within a high security zone. I use Memory sticks for data transfer
between PCs. It is an easy and practicle way to do so.
Best regards Rudolf Wingert
Nic Clews
>
> Do you have a requirement for one?
>
> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us know
> that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if it is worth
> qualifying the logic and supporting it.
Yes. [In a certain case] the current proposal is a tape solution to move
relatively (less than 100 meg) small amounts of data from one system to
another. CDR was investigated, but due to the nature of the data add
complications to destroying the used media.
So a convenient data interchange, and Memory Stick (or other "pendrive"
technology) would be welcome. FWIW, compatibility with other file
systems not required. There is no, and never will be, any
interconnecting network between the systems concerned.
--
Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences
nclews at csc dot com
John Smith
> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:
>>
>> Do you have a requirement for one?
>>
>> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting
>> us know that there are real customer requirements, we can determine
>> if it is worth qualifying the logic and supporting it.
>
> Yes. [In a certain case] the current proposal is a tape solution to
> move relatively (less than 100 meg) small amounts of data from one
> system to another. CDR was investigated, but due to the nature of the
> data add complications to destroying the used media.
A small propane fueled soldering torch isn't good enough to destroy a CDR
completely? Oh...I guess it isn't a great idea to use one of those in the
computer room or the Tempest facility.....
Christoph Gartmann
>Do you have a requirement for one?
We do have some requirement. The USB-sticks are a means to interchange data
between various platforms. It is a lot simpler to transfer such a stick than
to establish a network connection with passwords, protections, firewalls and
the like. Currently our memory sticks work under Windows 98 (with some driver),
Win 2000, Win XP, Linux and MacOS (all without any driver). It would be
helpful to have VMS on the list as well. In cases where there is no network,
either because of design or because of a failure, we have to use CD-ROMs or
SCSI disks in order to exchange files. CD-ROMs require burning, something that
is definitely more complicated compared to an USB-stick. In addition it is
one-way. Imagine some bogus config file on a system. You burn it on CD,
transfer the CD to some system where you would like to modify it; you'll have
to burn a second CD there in order bring the modified file back.
These sticks are the real replacement of the former floppy disk. Every
platform supports it, the file format is simple, usage it simple. Tell me
what is better for the purpose of exchanging data.
Regards,
Christoph Gartmann
--
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
Immunbiologie
Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de
D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html
Michael Unger
> [...]
>
> These sticks are the real replacement of the former floppy disk. Every
> platform supports it, the file format is simple, usage it simple. Tell me
> what is better for the purpose of exchanging data.
CD-RW?
Michael
--
Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "Security
Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.
My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.
Dan O'Reilly
>On 2004-03-03 11:21, "Christoph Gartmann" wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > These sticks are the real replacement of the former floppy disk. Every
> > platform supports it, the file format is simple, usage it simple. Tell me
> > what is better for the purpose of exchanging data.
>
>CD-RW?
..a network...?
Remember, we're not talking PC's here...
------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| http://www.process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
Lord Isildur
how about a network?
Alan Frisbie
> Do you have a requirement for one?
>
> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us know
> that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if it is worth
> qualifying the logic and supporting it.
I would dearly love to have this work (note that I didn't say
"supported"). A couple times a week I need to take software
updates to a client's site. Currently, I use TLZ09 tapes,
even though the updates generally total less than 10MB.
It would sure be nice if I could use a USB memory stick for
this.
Alan
Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy
> On 2004-03-03 11:21, "Christoph Gartmann" wrote:
>
>
>>[...]
>>
>>These sticks are the real replacement of the former floppy disk. Every
>>platform supports it, the file format is simple, usage it simple. Tell me
>>what is better for the purpose of exchanging data.
>
>
> CD-RW?
>
Almost everything nowdays from servers to laptops has a memory
card interface including Palms etc not everything has CD-RW
hence the usefullness of USB flash card readers. They are
also dirt cheap.
Regards
Andrew Harrison
Christoph Gartmann
>On 2004-03-03 11:21, "Christoph Gartmann" wrote:
>
>> [...]
>>
>> These sticks are the real replacement of the former floppy disk. Every
>> platform supports it, the file format is simple, usage it simple. Tell me
>> what is better for the purpose of exchanging data.
>
>CD-RW?
Which computer has a CD-RW? All newer computers have an USB port. In addition,
with CD-RW you have to deal with file systems. These pen-drives have all the
same file-system.
Larry Kilgallen
> Which computer has a CD-RW? All newer computers have an USB port. In addition,
> with CD-RW you have to deal with file systems. These pen-drives have all the
> same file-system.
And does that file system preserve RMS attributes ?
Chris Scheers
> Yes. [In a certain case] the current proposal is a tape solution to move
> relatively (less than 100 meg) small amounts of data from one system to
> another. CDR was investigated, but due to the nature of the data add
> complications to destroying the used media.
I thought that was what microwave ovens were for.
And the associated light show is an entertaining bonus. <grin>
Seriously, give it a try. It does a great job.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.
Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: ch...@applied-synergy.com
Fax: 817-237-3074
John Smith
> At 09:07 AM 3/3/2004, Michael Unger wrote:
>> On 2004-03-03 11:21, "Christoph Gartmann" wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> These sticks are the real replacement of the former floppy disk.
>>> Every platform supports it, the file format is simple, usage it
>>> simple. Tell me what is better for the purpose of exchanging data.
>>
>> CD-RW?
>
> ..a network...?
>
> Remember, we're not talking PC's here...
Some machines are not on networks for security reasons.
I'll grant you that CD-R may be cheap and relatively pervasive, but the
price of USB sticks are plummeting. Capacities of 2Gb are now hitting the
market in USB 2.0.
Some moronic jusridictions (Canada) charge a levy on every blank CD because
the music industry managed to get a bunch of bureaucrats convinced that most
CD's are being used to rip off the recording artists. So the levy is charged
on each CD, irrespective of the use of the CD.
JF Mezei
> I always wondered about that. If the cost of my blank CD includes a royalty
> being paid to the artists then does that give me free reign to copy music onto
> them?
Technically , yes. The irony is that the artist won't see a cent of the
royalty you have paid becuse those funds go to large record companies and are
not redistributed to artists. A hige ripoff.
The music industry now wants an ISP tax, thinking that the only use of the
internet is to download music.
Note that the precedent was blank VHS tapes that, according to the movie
industry, were used solely to illegally record and distribute movies. (They
had never heard of home movies or the practice of recording a program from TV
on a timer)
Brace yourselves for a hard disk tax since newer VCRs now record stuff on hard
disk drives.
What they need to do is go back to film instead of video, and vinyl records
instead of CDs :-)
John Smith
> In article
> <Kcs1c.82707$ah.6...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
> "John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> writes:
>
>>
>> Some moronic jusridictions (Canada) charge a levy on every blank CD
>> because the music industry managed to get a bunch of bureaucrats
>> convinced that most CD's are being used to rip off the recording
>> artists. So the levy is charged on each CD, irrespective of the use
>> of the CD.
>>
> a royalty being paid to the artists then does that give me free reign
> to copy music onto them?
>
>
> I can still buy 20 packs of CD-Rs ( with jewel cases ) for under
> $20CDN, so I take it the levy isn't all that high if it's there.
Disclaimer:
I don't know for certain that the following paragraph is true:
Canadians are legally allowed to copy music for personal use. In exchange, a
small fee is added to the price of recordable CDs to compensate musicians
and music publishing companies. Similar "royalties" are collected in more
than 40 countries, including the United States under the Audio Home
Recording Act of 1992.
This is what was enacted in December 2003:
http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/news/c20032004nr-e.html
"....
Today's decision freezes all existing private copying levies at their
current levels. As a result, the current levies of 29¢ on audio cassette
tapes of 40 minutes or longer (no levy applies to tapes of shorter length),
21¢ on CD-Rs and CD-RWs and 77¢ on CD-R Audio, CD-RW Audio and MiniDiscs
will remain in effect until the end of 2004.
The Board also sets for the first time a levy on non-removable memory
permanently embedded in digital audio recorders (such as MP3 players) at $2
for each recorder with a memory capacity of up to 1 Gigabyte (Gb), $15 for
each recorder with memory capacity of more than 1 Gb and up to 10 Gbs, and
$25 for each recorder with memory capacity of more than 10 GBs......"
The "music industry tax" alone on CD's in Canada is more per CD than
Americans pay for a CD even after adjusting for the difference in currency
values.
I can buy a 100 pack of CD's from Staples or CompUSA on sale for $2.99 after
rebate. The music industry tax in Canada for the same 100 CD's is $21.00 CAD
or about $15 USD, and then there's the cost of the CD's themselves, making
the 'normal' cost of 100 non-branded CD's about $39-49, with brand name cd's
being more expensive than that.
And to add insult to injury, they charge sales taxes on top of the music
industry tax!!!
But so far the courts have basically told the RIAA to get stuffed when they
want to go after Canadians the same way they've gone after Americans for
downloading music. I guess all you have to do is have a stack of blank
royalty paid CD's in your house to prove 'intent' that you were just going
to burn them onto cd's for personal use.
Forrest Kenney
1) So far all we have are it would be nice not a business case. We
need to know how may systems sales hinge on having this. That is
what we need to make a business case. Having said that a subset
of USB mass storage is on the to do list. We have no plans to
support QIC tapes or floppies.
2) I gave an unsupported mass storage driver to Steve Hoffman to put
on the Freeware site back in November of 2003. So you might bug
him to get it up if it is not already out there.
3) Even with the driver you will need V7.3-2 to have all the USB bug
fixes needed for the mass storage driver. You still might
have problems. I recently tried a PEN drive with an embedded hub
that tripped over a bug in our HUB code. That change is only in
a release stream.
4) Forget about using USB on the built in USB hardware in the DS10.
The current versions of the firmware disable the controller so
the O.S. does not see it. If you have older fimware there is a
problem with plugging/unplugging devices. We have no plans to
ever address that problem.
5) File systems and pen drives. The devices have whatever file
system you choose to format them with. I have formatted them
for files and the reformatted them for FAT-16.
6) I have not tried PCDISK but I would not assume that it will
work with the USB mass storage devices.
Forrest Kenney
OpenVMS Development
USB midnight driver writer
Dave Greenwood
> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:
> >
> > Do you have a requirement for one?
> >
> > We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us know
> > that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if it is worth
> > qualifying the logic and supporting it.
>
> Yes. [In a certain case] the current proposal is a tape solution to move
> relatively (less than 100 meg) small amounts of data from one system to
> another. CDR was investigated, but due to the nature of the data add
> complications to destroying the used media.
We use a heavy-duty paper shredder for cds. Our security folks are happy
with that for the kinds of data we have on cds - ymmv. Be sure to wear
safety glasses, though.
Dave
--------------
Dave Greenwood Email: Green...@ORNL.GOV
Oak Ridge National Lab %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself
Barry Treahy, Jr.
>In article <Kcs1c.82707$ah.6...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
> "John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> writes:
>Some moronic jusridictions (Canada) charge a levy on every blank CD because
>the music industry managed to get a bunch of bureaucrats convinced that most
>CD's are being used to rip off the recording artists. So the levy is charged
>on each CD, irrespective of the use of the CD.
>
>
>
> I always wondered about that. If the cost of my blank CD includes a royalty
>being paid to the artists then does that give me free reign to copy music onto
>them?
>
> Is the levy actually in effect now? How much is the levy?
>
> I can still buy 20 packs of CD-Rs ( with jewel cases ) for under $20CDN, so I
>take it the levy isn't all that high if it's there.
>
>
That isn't a bargin. Here in the states, you can get a 100 stack
spindle for $40 (free, if you watch for rebate coupons), and a 100 pack
of slim CD jewel cases can be bought for about $10 (again, free if you
watch for rebate coupons).
Perhaps you should just order them over the web from the states, just
like we can order cigars from Canada that we can't get here :-)
Barry
--
Barry Treahy, Jr E-mail: Tre...@MMaz.com
Midwest Microwave Phone: 480/314-1320
Vice President & CIO FAX: 480/661-7028
John Smith
> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <Kcs1c.82707$ah.6...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
>> "John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> writes:
>> Some moronic jusridictions (Canada) charge a levy on every blank CD
>> because
>> the music industry managed to get a bunch of bureaucrats convinced
>> that most CD's are being used to rip off the recording artists. So
>> the levy is charged
>> on each CD, irrespective of the use of the CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> I always wondered about that. If the cost of my blank CD includes
>> a royalty being paid to the artists then does that give me free
>> reign to copy music onto them?
>>
>> Is the levy actually in effect now? How much is the levy?
>>
>> I can still buy 20 packs of CD-Rs ( with jewel cases ) for under
>> $20CDN, so I take it the levy isn't all that high if it's there.
>>
>>
> That isn't a bargin. Here in the states, you can get a 100 stack
> spindle for $40 (free, if you watch for rebate coupons), and a 100
> pack of slim CD jewel cases can be bought for about $10 (again, free
> if you watch for rebate coupons).
>
>
> Perhaps you should just order them over the web from the states, just
> like we can order cigars from Canada that we can't get here :-)
You should have spoken up a bit sooner...could have brought you a box from
the factory.
hea...@aracnet.com
> how about a network?
There are lots of systems that can't be on networks.
Zane
Dan O'Reilly
allowing you to take a pocketable media out of the office to another system.
Just my experience, with some work in DOD...
------
Barry Treahy, Jr.
Humm :-)
Richard B. Gilbert
recent Windows, MacOS, Solaris or Linux system can do! Things like
burning CD-R CD-RW, DVD+/-R for instance. To the extent it can be done
it's because customers "rolled their own", principally a customer named
Heuser-Hofman I believe. AFAIK it's not a supported feature.
I know you have limited resources but which came first, the limited
resources or the reluctance to support emerging technologies?
Larry Kilgallen
<top posting corrected>
> At 06:16 PM 3/3/2004, hea...@aracnet.com wrote:
>>Lord Isildur <isi...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > how about a network?
>>
>>There are lots of systems that can't be on networks.
<top posting corrected>
> In my experience, a system that can't be on a network wouldn't DREAM of
> allowing you to take a pocketable media out of the office to another system.
> Just my experience, with some work in DOD...
Transfer via removeable media can pass through the hands of a security
officer for whatever vetting they want to pursue. One simple ruleset
needed in some environments is to enforce that data transfer is only
in one direction.
(True security geeks will accept the premise that the timing channel
introduced by periodic return of "emptys" through the security officer's
bulk eraser can be demonstrated to have sufficiently low bandwidth. :-)
JF Mezei
> In my experience, a system that can't be on a network wouldn't DREAM of
> allowing you to take a pocketable media out of the office to another system.
> Just my experience, with some work in DOD...
Not quite. I have on multiple occasions had Digital dial into my home system
to deliver a patch destined for a "closed" customer, and the next day, I would
bring a TK50 drive to install the patch on the customer systems which was
equipped with TK70s. It could read my stuff, but I couldn't write to my tapes.
Heck, once they delivered to my home system a required patch for the IBM side
of the DECNET/SNA file transfer software. I then loaded it via TK50 to the
customer's VMS system where it was copied to 9 track tape then moved to the
IBM system.
In the end, trust in the system manager is very important. And yes, you need
to have a minimal amount of paperwork to at least log the fact that a tape was
brought in by a certain individual, but there is no way that in an IBM shop,
you could have someone verify the contents of a TK50.
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip)
> Some moronic jusridictions (Canada) charge a levy on every blank CD because
> the music industry managed to get a bunch of bureaucrats convinced that most
> CD's are being used to rip off the recording artists. So the levy is charged
> on each CD, irrespective of the use of the CD.
In the US I believe they only charge this on Music CD-R's for audio
CD record decks. If I want to duplicate the CD's I write on my CD
recorder, I have to use a computer CD-R drive because of the SCMS
system.
Now, would I rather have cheaper CD-R's or prescription drugs?
I don't know about that one. (A popular topic in the US is buying
cheaper (often US made) prescription drugs in Canada.)
-- glen
Bart Z. Lederman
in light, so if you can put it outside where it will be exposed
to direct sunlight for a while, it will eventually be totally
bleached. (This is for CD-R, CDRW, DVD-R, etc. It won't work
on the old Magneto-Optical media.)
If you're in a hurry, and you have some frustrations to work
off, sandpaper will remove the recorded layer quite effectively.
--
B. Z. Lederman Personal Opinions Only
Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission
to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing
list of any kind.
Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have a
legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.
Christoph Gartmann
>1) So far all we have are it would be nice not a business case. We
> need to know how may systems sales hinge on having this. That is
> what we need to make a business case. Having said that a subset
> of USB mass storage is on the to do list. We have no plans to
> support QIC tapes or floppies.
I doubt that I'll buy more VMS systems if there is USB support for them. On the
other hand, some management people would be impressed to hear that there is now
USB support for a system they believe to be long dead. USB support for these
pen-drives will be a sales argument.
Christoph Gartmann
And even some more systems that have a software problem with their network
software.
Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann
In article <WuednXEANY3...@comcast.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"
<rgilb...@comcast.net> writes:
>Try measuring it as sales lost because VMS can't do things that any
>recent Windows, MacOS, Solaris or Linux system can do! Things like
>burning CD-R CD-RW, DVD+/-R for instance. To the extent it can be done
>it's because customers "rolled their own", principally a customer named
>Heuser-Hofman I believe. AFAIK it's not a supported feature.
If you read the postings about DVD recording you'll get the impression
that the wheel is been twice. An old DEC problem ("we are better than
the rest of the world").
eberhard
Alex Daniels
> Nic Clews wrote:
>
> > Yes. [In a certain case] the current proposal is a tape solution to move
> > relatively (less than 100 meg) small amounts of data from one system to
> > another. CDR was investigated, but due to the nature of the data add
> > complications to destroying the used media.
>
> I thought that was what microwave ovens were for.
>
> And the associated light show is an entertaining bonus. <grin>
The light show is most entertaining, although one ex-girlfriend did
seem to have her objections me using her microwave for this purpose.
As for it being an effective means of erasing the data, I'm not so
sure.. the CD is thin bit of metal foil attached to a polycarbonate
disc. The microwave munches up the foil into lots of tiny pieces.
I would imagine one could with enough time and effort, take these tiny
bits and with the right equipment read a small amount of data off each
one. Depends how important truly erasing the data is I guess.
Dr. Dweeb
> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <Kcs1c.82707$ah.6...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
>> "John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> writes:
>> Some moronic jusridictions (Canada) charge a levy on every blank CD
>> because
>> the music industry managed to get a bunch of bureaucrats convinced
>> that most CD's are being used to rip off the recording artists. So
>> the levy is charged
>> on each CD, irrespective of the use of the CD.
>>
>>
>>
>> I always wondered about that. If the cost of my blank CD includes
>> a royalty being paid to the artists then does that give me free
>> reign to copy music onto them?
>>
>> Is the levy actually in effect now? How much is the levy?
>>
Here in Europe many countries also have this. I think CODA is the force
behind the lobbying. There was a levy on cassettes when they were big.
Here where I live, CDR-700 box of 10 in jewel cases costs about $13.00 and
about $33 for 100 on a spindle. Germany $7.30 for 10*870MB CD-R, $43.10 for
100*900MB. Prices vary wildly though, depending on speed rating.
Dr. Dweeb
VAXman-
You need a girlfriend with stronger microwave. One that will cause the
polycarbonate to burn and really stink up your girlfriend microwave and
impart the nastiest taste to foods cooked in it in the future. :)
--
http://www.legacy-2000.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security
solutions that others only claim to be.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Chris Scheers
Well, that's true of any destruction method. Some people put CDs
through shredders. You could still put the pieces back together and
read some data.
I suspect that if you converted the CD to plasma someone would point out
that you could always reassemble the original molecules and read the
data. <grin>
You need to balance the time and cost of reconstructing the data against
the value of the data. All the various methods have their places.
William Webb
Why not just BURN them? (meaning combustion as opposed to the writing of data)
WWWebb
Paul Sture
Data confidentiality issues apart, they can be recycled. And much of
Europe is very keen on recycling.
Brief summary of http://www.hamburg-magazin.de/um_wohin_1.htm (German)
follows:
All Hamburg's 16 recycling depots of Hamburg have 30 litre containers
(blue) where residents can recycle audio and computer CDs free of
charge.
About 40,000 tons of plastic in the form of CD-ROMs arrive annually on
the German market (source: ALLIANCE Coburg).
That converts to 12.5 billion pieces. When spread over the area of a
soccer field, this number of CDS would give a height of 26 meters.
The disks consist to 99 percent of Polycarbonate, a high-value plastic,
that can be recycled.
The SRH receives no guarantee of data protection for disks collected.
And it goes on to recommend that the CDs are made unreadable by
scratching from the hole outwards.
--
Paul Sture
John Laird
wrote:
>About 40,000 tons of plastic in the form of CD-ROMs arrive annually on
>the German market (source: ALLIANCE Coburg).
>
>That converts to 12.5 billion pieces. When spread over the area of a
>soccer field, this number of CDS would give a height of 26 meters.
What is the population of Germany, something around 100-120 million ?
That's 100 CDs, *thrown away*, for every man, woman and child !!
I notice you mentioned "most of Europe" when referring to recycling. Here
in the yoo-kay, we cannot make up our minds whether to be last in the queue
(a general rule) or right up at the front with no way of dealing with it
(fridge mountains). There is also a story (the exact truth is not known)
that we used to have a very very efficient used tyre recycling scheme
entirely outside any official channels. Once we decided to conform to the
EC bureaucratic methodology, recycling rates plummeted once many parties
realised the extra paperwork and levy collections resulted in overall lost
revenue. Sigh.
--
When Mozart was my age, he was dead.
Mail john rather than nospam...
John Smith
I built a little jig out of wood - a piece of plywood with a hole the same
size as the CD hole drilled in it, and a rubber sanding mat placed over
top - also with a hole in it. A piece of wood dowel is pushed up from below
so it just sticks up level with the surface of a CD placed on top.
Then a random orbit sander with 80 grit sandpaper applied to the metallized
side of the CD. The dowel and rubber mat keep the CD from sliding around.
The task is complete once the metallized surface is ground completely off -
typically you also windup taking a small amount of the plastic layer off as
well.
Wear a N95 respirator while you do this.
Paul Sture
>
> On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:20:17 +0100, Paul Sture <nos...@sture.homeip.net>
> wrote:
>
> >About 40,000 tons of plastic in the form of CD-ROMs arrive annually on
> >the German market (source: ALLIANCE Coburg).
> >
> >That converts to 12.5 billion pieces. When spread over the area of a
> >soccer field, this number of CDS would give a height of 26 meters.
>
> What is the population of Germany, something around 100-120 million ?
> That's 100 CDs, *thrown away*, for every man, woman and child !!
>
Germany has a population of ~82 million. If I understood it correctly
that 40,000 tonnes represents the amount arriving in the shops rather
than the amount being thrown away. But think about the number of CDs
which come with software, peripherals, and on magazine covers and it is
probably a staggering amount.
> I notice you mentioned "most of Europe" when referring to recycling.
Certainly the German speaking parts. Perhaps have should have said "much of
Europe" there.
Here in Switzerland, the only rubbish bags they will take cost ~1 GBP apiece
for a 35 litre bag (suitable for a bin underneath the kitchen sink). And, where
I am at least, there are fines for putting designated items such as glass,
electronics, batteries etc in those bags. It's not that bad - I have green bins
at home for organic stuff, and there are various drop off points for
recyclable items, often inside shops for small stuff.
Since a year or so ago, there is a smallish recyclying surcharge on electronic
goods when you buy them, with the idea that you can take old stuff back to any
electrical shop and they will dispose of it properly for you for free. Before
that, you had to either buy new goods or pay the shop to dispose of stuff. That
could be difficult / expensive.
yes it can be a pain, but apparently they have managed to reduce the amount of
non-recycled rubbish per household quite quite significantly.
Many people take stuff into work and use their employers' recycling
facilities too. :-)
There's a rubbish plant near me which burns the combustible stuff and provides
heating for the local housing. IIRC Germany has had such plants for many years
now.
> Here
> in the yoo-kay, we cannot make up our minds whether to be last in the queue
> (a general rule) or right up at the front with no way of dealing with it
> (fridge mountains). There is also a story (the exact truth is not known)
> that we used to have a very very efficient used tyre recycling scheme
> entirely outside any official channels. Once we decided to conform to the
> EC bureaucratic methodology, recycling rates plummeted once many parties
> realised the extra paperwork and levy collections resulted in overall lost
> revenue. Sigh.
>
Sad. When I was young the local (UK) council collected paper and cardboard
seperately and apparently made a profit on it. Somewhere along the way they
lost the plot and forgot that money can be made from rubbish.
But recently I heard of some UK council or other which had hit the targets for
collecting recyclable rubbish separately, only to throw it in landfill with
all the rest.
Sigh.
--
Paul Sture
Alex Daniels
I guess my point is with CDR's you cant do a delete/erase init/erase
first, before you deguass and distroy the media. A number of erase
cycles are usually accepted as being good enough to wipe the data,
before you wack the media.
I havnt done it in some time, but IIRC, you can even write your own
pattern for delete/erase to use.
At most of the sites I have worked at, microwaving a CD would not be
considered secure enough. however a few erases on a USB stick probably
would be.
Alex Daniels
Don't quote me as I do not have any figures to back it up, but I do
remember seeing on a number of different documentrys that we (the UK)
are among the worst of northern europe countries for recycling.
And I have definetly not seen any CD recycling schemes here...
John Smith
"Fred Kleinsorge" <my-las...@stardotzko.dec.com> wrote in message
news:2o71c.47$GG...@news.cpqcorp.net...
> Do you have a requirement for one?
>
> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us know
> that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if it is worth
> qualifying the logic and supporting it.
GnuPG / PGP encryption key ring storage
Island Computers USA
removable medium is always required
USB or even a SCSI Flash Card reader/writer for VMS would be an excellent
idea.
Almost all the bases run VMS somewhere within.
DT
--
David B Turner
Island Computers US Corporation
2700 Gregory St., Suite 180
Savannah GA 31404
Tel: 912 447 6622
Fax: 912 201 0402
"Christoph Gartmann" <gart...@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens> wrote in message
news:c27817$75j$2...@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de...
David J. Dachtera
>
> I talk to a lot of Air Force bases and Government installations where a
> removable medium is always required
> USB or even a SCSI Flash Card reader/writer for VMS would be an excellent
> idea.
> Almost all the bases run VMS somewhere within.
Ever looked at Castlewood's ORB drive?
--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
John Smith
"David J. Dachtera" <djesys...@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message
news:404FE317...@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net...
> Island Computers USA wrote:
> >
> > I talk to a lot of Air Force bases and Government installations where a
> > removable medium is always required
> > USB or even a SCSI Flash Card reader/writer for VMS would be an
excellent
> > idea.
> > Almost all the bases run VMS somewhere within.
>
> Ever looked at Castlewood's ORB drive?
http://www.castlewood.com/current_products.html
They're ok as large cousins to Zip drives.
Some people in the Win/linux world use USB keys as licensing tokens. It's
unlikely that any of those apps would make it toVMS in the first place but
if they did, I wouldn't expect them to want to use LMF either.
John Smith
"David J. Dachtera" <djesys...@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message
news:404FE317...@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net...
While the Orb is a variation on the Zip drive idea (faster & more capacity),
at the prices they charge one can buy a 40-120Gb external USB hard drive.
Formal USB interface support is a must as more and more devices fulfilling
various needs come to the market. Who knows what the next 'big thing' in USB
devices will bring?
David J. Dachtera
>
> "David J. Dachtera" <djesys...@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message
> news:404FE317...@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net...
> > Island Computers USA wrote:
> > >
> > > I talk to a lot of Air Force bases and Government installations where a
> > > removable medium is always required
> > > USB or even a SCSI Flash Card reader/writer for VMS would be an
> excellent
> > > idea.
> > > Almost all the bases run VMS somewhere within.
> >
> > Ever looked at Castlewood's ORB drive?
> >
> > --
> > David J. Dachtera
> > dba DJE Systems
> > http://www.djesys.com/
> >
> > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
> > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
>
> While the Orb is a variation on the Zip drive idea (faster & more capacity),
> at the prices they charge one can buy a 40-120Gb external USB hard drive.
Check it out a little further. The Orb is a MR technology hard-disk
removable cartridge. Originally a "2.2GB" capacity (circa 1.98GBF
ODS-2), it was going to be available in a "5GB" version (likely would
have been circa 4.8GBF ODS-2/5). Looks like they may have dropped that
product.
Zip is little more than an ultra-high-density floppy and has some
reliability problems. Google for "click of death".
John Smith
"David J. Dachtera" <djesys...@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message
I know all about that.
My point was that MANY USB devices with all types of functionality are
coming into the market. To not have a fully supported USB interface in VMS
is folly.
Fred Kleinsorge
>
>
> My point was that MANY USB devices with all types of functionality are
> coming into the market. To not have a fully supported USB interface in VMS
> is folly.
>
There are a number of points to address here.
First, while on the surface USB defines a fairly clean set of high-level
abstractions for devices - it seems to me that Forrest ends up having to do
lots of tweaking to handle the idiosyncracies of specific devices.
Second, supported how? Plug in a random device and expect it to work
flawlessly on VMS? To be "supported" in my mind means we've qualified it
and know it to work correctly, and have the ability to fix bugs if they are
found.
Third, the enterprise server people (the ones that build 'em, and the ones
who buy 'em) still aren't sold on USB. I think that will change, but given
the choice between say, a 8-line serial mux PCI card and a 8-line serial
line USB box - they keep asking for the PCI card (just as an example). We
(VMS) aren't in the consumer or desktop market - so the USB devices we've
done have been limited (plus the Alpha USB support was spotty at best until
Marvel).
Fourth, user-written USB drivers are a great idea - but probably not high on
the priority list. I think this would be a great thing to have (along with
a SCSI port driver and graphics developers kit too ;-)
So. What happens is we support the devices that we *have* to support. I
think that in the not-too-distant-future - we can justify a memory
stick/key. There are just too many really good uses for them. I'm just
waiting for the first real customer requirement to come in where it's not
just a "like to have". I think you'll probably see a USB DVD on Itanium in
the next year. And Forrest is trying to be pretty good about putting out
unsupported USB handlers for interesting devices.
John Smith
>
>
> Third, the enterprise server people (the ones that build 'em, and the ones
> who buy 'em) still aren't sold on USB. I think that will change, but
given
> the choice between say, a 8-line serial mux PCI card and a 8-line serial
> line USB box - they keep asking for the PCI card (just as an example). We
> (VMS) aren't in the consumer or desktop market - so the USB devices we've
> done have been limited (plus the Alpha USB support was spotty at best
until
> Marvel).
A desktop system is just a blade with a video card in a box with rubber feet
on the bottom/side ;-)
Fred Kleinsorge
>
>
> A desktop system is just a blade with a video card in a box with rubber
feet
> on the bottom/side ;-)
>
>
Only to someone who hasn't had to sell it. A box designed for a rack can be
a much different beast than what is required for a office. And even when
you do the job right and design it to do both (the DS10 for instance) there
are testing and compliance requirements. It isn't just free.
John Smith
Hence the smiley in my message.
FCC Class A vs. Class B and lots of other issues for sure.
John Smith
> Do you have a requirement for one?
>
> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us know
> that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if it is worth
> qualifying the logic and supporting it.
Take a look at this article to see what special uses some USB devices are up
to. Who knows what interesting uses of USB VMS Engineering or ISV's could
come up with if USB were properly supported on VMS?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1551341,00.asp
John Smith
"Fred Kleinsorge" <my-las...@stardotzko.dec.com> wrote in message
news:2o71c.47$GG...@news.cpqcorp.net...
> Do you have a requirement for one?
>
> We have some code, but it isn't shipping or supported. By letting us know
> that there are real customer requirements, we can determine if it is worth
> qualifying the logic and supporting it.
http://www.usb.org/app/search/products
It may simply come down to be that in a 'beauty contest' USB capability is
simply a checkbox requirement and without it you're out of the running.
John Smith
"Fred Kleinsorge" <my-las...@stardotzko.dec.com> wrote in message
news:2o71c.47$GG...@news.cpqcorp.net...
> Do you have a requirement for one?
>
Most small single 'point' UPS systems already have and many 'workgroup'
sized UPS systems are moving towards using USB for signaling and monitoring.
Not all Alpha's live in 'glass houses' with Liebert UPS'es and diesel
generators providing clean power all the time. Nor will all Itanics.