[TNG] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Thine Own Self"
Timothy W. Lynch
If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
In brief: a couple of small plausibility-straining ideas, but mostly
terrific.
I'm getting more confident now that "Sub Rosa" was a dastardly fluke, because
both this and "Lower Decks" have been strong. More later -- but first, as
always, a synopsis:
As Troi returns from a class reunion, Dr. Crusher updates her on the
situation while serving bridge duty. Deanna gets very curious as to why Bev
would take the bridge officer's exam and become a full commander in the first
place, and takes Bev's answer of wanting to stretch herself to heart. In the
meantime, there is no response from Data, who is away on Barkon Four to
retrieve radioactive fragments from a crashed probe.
On Barkon, home to a pre-industrial society, a villager, Garvin, is talking to
his daughter Gia, when suddenly both see Data walk into the village, dazed.
His clothes and hair appear singed, and when he opens his mouth to speak, only
a machinelike humming is heard. Garvin sends Gia home and tries to
communicate with Data, who manages to get his voice under control. Garvin
quickly finds, however, that Data has great difficulty communicating -- at
first, he cannot even understand what is said to him, merely mimicking
Garvin's statements. Later, his comprehension begins to return, but he has
no idea who or where he is, remembering only that he walked to the village
from the mountains, a great distance away. Garvin, observing the fragment
container Data is holding, asks if he can examine it, and Data agrees. Data
finds that he can read the lettering on the container ("RADIOACTIVE"), but
has no idea what it means, and speculates that perhaps it is his name. "It's
not like any name I've ever heard," replies Garvin, taking and holding up a
piece of metal from the case...
Meanwhile, on the Enterprise, Troi informs Riker that she wants to become a
full commander and take the bridge officer's test, "to stretch myself."
Although she admits seeing old friends at the reunion was a trigger, she says
that she's actually been considering the idea ever since her brief stint on
the bridge in a time of disaster two years earlier. Riker agrees to support
her, but also warns that he's the one who'll have to evaluate her, and not to
expect any favors.
On Barkon, Talur, the village's resident scientist, examines Data and
pronounces him fit in all respects save his memory loss. (His heartbeat, in
particular, is "very regular.") As far as his odd appearance is concerned,
she grants that "my grandmother would have called our friend here a demon, or
a spirit, or some sort of monster -- but current scientific methodology
allows us to dismiss such ridiculous superstitions and concentrate on
_scientific_ reality." What is he, then? An "iceman", or so she says --
from a race that lives in the mountains under very harsh conditions. As
Talur leaves, Gia enters and helps Garvin pick a name for Data: "Jayden."
Garvin and "Jayden" leave to find Skoran, the village smith, who might be
able to help identify the strange metal Jayden brought with him. Skoran
notes that the metal is strangely warm, and that given its quality it must
have been tempered in some way. He offers to buy half the lot from Jayden to
make jewelry, a prospect to which Jayden agrees. Just then, an anvil falls
onto one of the other smiths. He screams in pain, and others run for help --
but Data walks over and lifts it off him easily, allowing him to scramble out
from under and get medical help. "Did I do something wrong?" he asks Garvin,
perplexed by the stares this action has provoked. "No, " muses Garvin, "just
unexpected."
That evening, Talur assures Jayden that *all* icemen have such strength, in
order to fight off the wild creatures living in the mountains. When Jayden
reminds Talur that no one has ever *seen* such creatures, she scoffs that
it's simply a well known fact. Garvin, meanwhile, is beginning to look and
feel very fatigued, and Talur takes him out for some fresh air. Jayden talks
to Gia, who tells him her mother died a year ago. "Father said she went to a
beautiful place, where everything is peaceful, and everyone loves each other,
and no one ever gets sick. Do you think there's really a place like that?"
Jayden moves to the window and stares up at the stars. "Yes. I do."
Troi, having passed all but one test in the meantime, takes the engineering
qualification -- and fails, badly, destroying the Enterprise in simulation.
Riker reassures her that it's a very hard section, but refuses to tell her
what she did wrong, since she'll have to take the test again.
Jayden, meanwhile, sits in on Talur's open-air schoolroom, but objects to her
characterization of "rock, fire, sky and water" as the four core elements of
the universe as reasoning by analogy. Talur is not impressed, reassuring the
children that Jayden's memory lapses are still present, and Jayden is thus
not the most reliable of observers himself. The class is dismissed, and
Jayden is far from angry -- but he is certain Talur's statements are wrong.
The issue is soon abandoned, however, when Garvin collapses while arguing
with Skoran over money. Jayden and Gia get him home.
At Garvin's home, Talur examines him, but has no idea what's wrong with him.
Upon noticing that his lesions resemble burn marks, however, she suspects
"the fluids of [his] body have overheated", and recommends lots of water,
fresh air, and various herbs to cool the fluids down. After she leaves,
Jayden decides (with Garvin's permission) to try to investigate the illness
himself, and takes Gia into the village to get supplies. In the village,
however, he finds out that the disease is spreading, affecting Skoran and
others as well -- and that the villagers believe *him* to be the one
responsible for the plague. He and Gia, with supplies, return home.
A while later, Talur finds Jayden examining skin samples from both Garvin and
Gia, who has also come down with the illness now. Talur looks through
Jayden's magnifying device, far more powerful than her own, and professes
some skepticism when Jayden begins discussing cellular damage. She agrees
with his ideas of searching for a common experience Garvin, Gia and Skoran
have all shared recently, however, and notes that Jayden himself is a likely
candidate. He agrees, but also points out that Talur has had extensive
contact with him and has not taken ill. Gia comes down to report on Garvin's
condition and is sent back upstairs to bed, but not before Jayden notices the
metal pendant she wears, and finds that she's had it for a few days, and that
it was made out of the metal Skoran bought from Jayden himself...
Troi, back on the Enterprise, is studying once again for the engineering exam
and is annoyed at the technobabble. She is far more upset, however, when
Riker enters and informs her that he's cancelling the test, saying that his
first duty is to the ship and that he cannot let someone serve as a bridge
officer who is unqualified. Troi fumes, but then realizes something
important in Riker's statements and departs for the holodeck. There, she
averts the disaster that has stymied her before, by ordering Geordi to repair
a conduit directly despite the radiation in the crawlway -- in other words,
by ordering Geordi to his death. Riker closes down the simulation and
congratulates her on passing the test -- the entire point of which was to see
if she could make that hard choice.
Jayden, in the village, shows Talur his findings, and tells her of his theory
that the metal is sending out invisible particles which are some sort of
energy source, and which also are causing the mysterious illness. She is
incredulous, but Jayden is insistent -- and what's more, he's noticed that
the container he brought the metal in seems to block the particles, so he
suggests that the container was a safeguard, and the "RADIOACTIVE" label was
a warning. He asks her to go to the village and collect all the metal she
can into that container, while he continues to search for a cure. Promising
to come back and examine Jayden's data in detail, Talur leaves -- but shortly
thereafter, Skoran comes in with several other villagers, convinced that
Jayden is trying to kill them all.
Skoran tries to club Jayden and misses -- and doesn't get a second chance, as
Jayden neatly sends him against a nearby wall. Skoran's cohort, however,
delivers a glancing blow along Jayden's face, and rips off the "skin"
concealing Jayden's circuitry. Both villagers stare at Jayden in horror. As
Skoran blurts "What are you?" and leaves in a hurry, Jayden puts his hand to
his face and replies, "I do not know..."
Later, Talur has collected the metal, but Skoran and the others are back,
intent on finding and killing Jayden "before he kills us all." Garvin and
Gia do not believe Jayden can be such a monster, but cannot stop the others
from departing on their mission. Talur tells father and daughter to rest,
and leaves herself. Gia wanders through the house, but stops when she
reaches the kitchen and hears a voice calling to her from the corridor.
"Jayden!"
Jayden has returned, hooded, and needs time to find a cure. Gia tells him to
remove the hood so she can see him, and gasps in horror when he does so, but
stands her ground, willing to help. After hours of work, he finds this cure
and, having already administered it to Garvin, gets Gia to drink it. He
reasons that the villagers will not take it voluntarily, and decides to spike
the village well with the solution to help them.
Jayden arrives at the well and prepares to drop in the cure, but Skoran and
the others catch him in the act and accuse him of causing the plague and
attempting to kill them. Hastily, he drops the compound into the well, just
as Skoran impales him with a sharp metal pole. Skoran is stunned by the
electric shock, but "Jayden" is worse off, falling down dead in a heap.
Much later, a fully recovered Gia is walking in the village when Beverly and
Riker ask her gently if she's seen a friend of theirs. She says she has seen
him, but points to a grave when they ask where he is.
"They killed him because they were afraid of him, but he saved all of us from
the sickness." She describes his work over the last few days, and tells them
the metal fragments are buried in the forest. "What was his real name?"
"Data."
"Data ... he was my friend too." Gia hurries off.
Riker and Bev quickly scan and confirm that it is Data, and prepare to beam
both him and the metal up in secret.
Data is successfully revived, but with no memory of his experiences after a
power surge overloaded him as he was working with the crashed probe. He
examines his clothes, however, and concludes, "It appears I had an
interesting time." As Riker and Bev fill him in on what little they know,
Deanna departs for her bridge shift, telling Data that because of her
promotion, "you can call me 'sir' from now on."
----------
Whew. Another long synopsis; this is getting old *real* fast. :-) Now,
onwards to some rather exhausted commentary.
I pitched a story to TNG shortly before this episode was filmed, and one of
the reasons my story didn't sell was the existence of several Data stories in
the pipeline, including this one. So, as you might guess, my reaction going
in was "this had BETTER be good."
Fortunately, it was. In fact, the Data-centered elements of it are close to
my favorite parts of this season to date. Brent Spiner, although playing
Data not that differently than usual, got to loosen up in all sorts of subtle
ways, I think, which made the episode work monstrously well.
It would be tough to find any premise which could justify an "amnesiac Data
ends up in the Age of Reason", let's face it -- but given that, this one will
certainly suffice. I'm not entirely sure I buy it that a power surge could
do what it did, but it's close enough that I don't care; and after all, much
of the show was done from the villagers' viewpoint, and to them he was simply
a mystery through and through.
What's more, this mystery actually caused problems. It makes perfect sense
that the first thing Garvin would do to try to help figure out Data's
problems would be to examine what he was carrying. Perfect sense -- but it's
also something that should have been lethal, and it very nearly *was*, in the
most realistic treatment of radiation sickness we'll ever get from Trek in
any form. (When all the complaints I have about the depiction are nitpicks,
it's not a worry.)
The plot itself wasn't all that difficult to figure out -- it was fairly
clear that Data would end up getting the Frankenstein treatment, and it also
seemed likely that most of the village, at least, would be saved. What it
came down to was the execution, and there were *so* many things to like in
the execution that I found myself very interested.
The biggest one, which is probably not a surprise, was the Data/Talur
interactions, particularly all the discussion of methodology. After all of
my ranting about "The Chase" about this time last year, I'm glad to see a
show that made me feel just as positive about TNG's attention to science as
"The Chase" made me negative about it. (It's somewhat ironic, I think, that
Ron Moore co-wrote _both_ stories.) Here, we had points where Talur's
statements were wrong, but were wrong in ways that were right in terms of
motivation. Data's correction to her science lesson, while probably just
amusing to most people, had me virtually cheering: it _was_ pure reasoning
by analogy, which was the main flaw of scientific thinking at the time. I
had a blast in all of their discussion, particularly the science lesson and
her insistence on adding frills to an already shaky theory once Data's
strength was revealed. (I found myself thinking of Ptolemaic theory:
epicycles, anyone? :-) )
I also particularly liked some of the direction. Data coming out of the
shadows to find Gia towards the end was expected, but wonderful; and the use
of the hammering motif when we first saw Skoran called "Birthright I" to mind
beautifully (which I'm sure was intentional; after all, Kolbe directed both).
I also *very* much liked some elements of the ending. While I have a few
plausibility-straining points I'll get to shortly, I liked the fact that,
in effect, the Enterprise was *too late* to save anyone or anything. The
only reason Data wasn't actually _dead_ was a property unique to Data; there
was no miracle saving of the day here. I was fearing the Enterprise would
suddenly show up in orbit and beam Data out in the nick of time, then somehow
distribute a miracle cure; fortunately, I didn't get that.
The fact that they were cured at all is something of a stretch, though. I
can understand that there may be a cure for radiation poisoning in the 24th
century. I have a *lot* of difficulty, though, believing that Data could
find it with a swiss-cheesed memory and make it out of seven herbs and
spices. It's certainly not impossible (and given that the cures are probably
fairly routine to the Enterprise crew, there could be easy scenarios to work
it up), but it made my disbelief sit up and say "yo!" for a minute, unlike
virtually all of the rest of the show.
[The other planetary problem I had was Data's actions at the well. He
shouldn't have needed the lantern, and he shouldn't have paused so
dramatically before getting ready to dump the cure in. The combination would
have gotten the cure distributed safely. It's dramatic license, but it's a
little much.]
On the planetary side, though, that's it -- and both are small objections
indeed. I liked all the guest characters a great deal (even Gia, who had the
potential to be a major annoyance, but was quite pleasant), I thought the
points made sense, and I loved the whole feel of the episode.
The Troi plot on the Enterprise, on the other hand, was simply decent. It
wasn't bad by any means, but it really *was* ten minutes or so of plot to
fill out the hour, and felt like it. I did like Troi's motivation for
testing in the first place, though -- the reunion idea made sense, and the
reference back to "Disaster" is about the only good thing to come out of that
whole episode.
Lisa and I are having something of a debate about Troi "passing" the final
test, though. She thinks it wasn't really demonstrating she might order
someone to their deaths in real life, since it was a situation she'd seen
three times before and tried several options in already -- and she thinks
that Troi might not really do it if push came to shove. I mostly agree, but
I also don't think there's any _better_ way to test it short of actually
making her kill somebody, which is somewhat ... impractical. Thoughts?
That's about all the major thoughts I had on "Thine Own Self", really. The
show doesn't necessarily lend itself to huge speculation and back-chat the
way "Parallels" or "Lower Decks" does, but it was very strong in a more quiet
way. I liked it ... a lot.
So, a few short takes:
-- I *loved* the Riker-trombone scene early in the show. I have a feeling
the line "did you come here for something in particular, or just general
Riker-bashing" is going to be repeated a lot in conversations for months.
:-)
-- There's a great quote from _Analog_ a few years back that bears on Talur's
"four basic elements" lesson. I don't remember the exact phrasing (mostly
because I've never seen it :-) ), but it says something along the lines of
"In olden times, we thought there were four basic elements of the universe:
earth, water, air, and fire. Now, we know there are *really* four basic
states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Three cheers for
progress." :-)
-- One unfortunate consequence of Data wandering around with half his face
off towards the end of the show is that the makeup job was _far_ worse than
usual on that half of his face then. I'm not sure there'd be a way to avoid
it, but it's pretty obvious that the circuitry is a prosthetic. Oh, well.
That's about it. To wrap up, then:
Plot: Only very minor stretches only. Very tight, and very understated.
Plot Handling: The only problem was putting in the Troi stuff as padding;
the direction was top-notch.
Characterization: Marvelous; absolutely marvelous.
OVERALL: A 9. Good job.
NEXT WEEK:
Poor Data. First amnesia on a primitive planet, now possession. Poor guy
can't get a break...
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
BITNET: tlynch@citjulie
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"I'm sure my grandmother would have called our friend here a demon or a
spirit, or some sort of monster -- but current scientific methodology allows
us to dismiss such ridiculous superstitions, and concentrate on _scientific_
reality."
"Then what do you believe I am?"
"You ... are an iceman."
-- Talur and Data
--
Copyright 1994, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
Jeffrey W. McKeough
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
>If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
>In brief: a couple of small plausibility-straining ideas, but mostly
>terrific.
>
>Lisa and I are having something of a debate about Troi "passing" the final
>test, though. She thinks it wasn't really demonstrating she might order
>someone to their deaths in real life, since it was a situation she'd seen
>three times before and tried several options in already -- and she thinks
>that Troi might not really do it if push came to shove. I mostly agree, but
>I also don't think there's any _better_ way to test it short of actually
>making her kill somebody, which is somewhat ... impractical. Thoughts?
It seems that in practice, Starfleet officers volunteer for
potentially deadly assignments. While the CO ultimately has to make
the decision, the situation usually plays out a lot differently. I
would have expected Geordi to point out that he could repair the
conduit, and for Troi's dilemma to center on whether to agree with his
plan. Scotty, O'Brien, McCoy and Data have all volunteered to
undertake potentially lethal action in order to save others. Spock
and Sito even managed to die in the process. (I'm not drawing any
reincarnation parallels here! :-)
Granted in situations such as "Chain of Command," we have seen
officers sent out on missions that were likely to result in death, but
even then, Picard, Worf and Crusher acted out of a sense of duty to
Starfleet and the Federation. The order might have been difficult to
give, but it didn't quite feel the same as Troi coming up with a plan,
Worf objecting, and Troi telling Geordi to execute it, followed by
"That's an order." Here, the whole matter fell upon Troi, without
support from the crew, and without the crew's exhibiting a sense of
duty to the ship and the fleet.
Of course, it is imperative for a commander to be able to make such a
decision in a situation where the crew might not volunteer (a la Data
in Redemption II). So perhaps Troi was tested under the conditions
that would be most difficult for her, as was Wesley in "Coming of
Age."
Overall, I think it was the most reasonable way to test her. I mean,
there's no reason to waste a perfectly good Chief Engineer (or three)
:-). Even if the test made her act differently than she might have in
"real" life, she now has no doubt of what is expected of someone with
her rank.
--
____ //\\ //\/\ Jeffrey William McKeough j...@student.umass.edu
\ / // \/\// \\/%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\/ //
\\__// Displayed with recycled electrons.
Ron C Carman
>WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
>If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
Most spoilers excised, but just in case:
>Lisa and I are having something of a debate about Troi "passing" the final
>test, though. She thinks it wasn't really demonstrating she might order
>someone to their deaths in real life, since it was a situation she'd seen
>three times before and tried several options in already -- and she thinks
>that Troi might not really do it if push came to shove. I mostly agree, but
>I also don't think there's any _better_ way to test it short of actually
>making her kill somebody, which is somewhat ... impractical. Thoughts?
Here's a nit you probably should have picked. :-) I had a problem
with the whole "only full Commanders can stand watch" schtick. It's
internally inconsistent. We've *seen* Data stand watch on the bridge,
and he's only a Lieutenant Commander. What gives?
Like I said, just a nit, but it's a bit bothersome.
Ron Carman
--
| Ron C. Carman || That's the trouble with feeling as if you're |
| rcca...@mik.uky.edu || on top of the world. It's always a sure sign |
| rcca...@ukpr.uky.edu || you and it are about to switch places. |
| U.S. SnailMAIL: P.O. Box 24352 Lexington, KY 40524-4352 |
Matthew Gertz
>If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
>In brief: a couple of small plausibility-straining ideas, but mostly
>terrific.
Yeah, it was a pretty good 'un, all right...
>The biggest one, which is probably not a surprise, was the Data/Talur
>interactions, particularly all the discussion of methodology. [...] I
>had a blast in all of their discussion, particularly the science lesson and
>her insistence on adding frills to an already shaky theory once Data's
>strength was revealed. (I found myself thinking of Ptolemaic theory:
>epicycles, anyone? :-) )
I'm of the opinion that Talur is responsible for ghostwriting at least
half the papers that one can find in the various human factors/ergonomics
confierence proceedings... :-)
>I also *very* much liked some elements of the ending. While I have a few
>plausibility-straining points I'll get to shortly, I liked the fact that,
>in effect, the Enterprise was *too late* to save anyone or anything. The
>only reason Data wasn't actually _dead_ was a property unique to Data; there
>was no miracle saving of the day here. I was fearing the Enterprise would
>suddenly show up in orbit and beam Data out in the nick of time, then somehow
>distribute a miracle cure; fortunately, I didn't get that.
During Data's last conversation with Talur, where the word "data" was not
only said but in fact *stressed* twice, I said to Glenda, "Oh, dear, he's
going to hear his name, and then figure out who he is." I had a similar
reaction when Data ran his fingers over his flashy LEDs that decorate his
skull. Fortunately, I was proved wrong both times, but I have a sneaking
suspicion that I was *meant* to think that those things would snap his
memory back. (I do have a nitpick with Data's skin coming of at all...
we've seen many times that Data's skin is *tough*... it's survived being
blown up (a la "Time's Arrow"), being electrified (several episodes),
and knocked around in general).
>The Troi plot on the Enterprise, on the other hand, was simply decent. It
>wasn't bad by any means, but it really *was* ten minutes or so of plot to
>fill out the hour, and felt like it. I did like Troi's motivation for
>testing in the first place, though -- the reunion idea made sense, and the
>reference back to "Disaster" is about the only good thing to come out of that
>whole episode.
And now we have a total of three commanders instead of the one we started out
with in "Encounter at Farpoint." The fact that there's a test to pass up to
Commander is interesting, and helps flesh out how promotions are granted at the
senior officer levels. I suspect, though, that there'll be a lot of
questions from folks non-knowledgeable about military protocol as to why
Data is second officer when in fact Troi (and Crusher) outrank him...
Will TNG also suffer from the top-heavy ranks disease seen in the recent
TOS movies? Granted, people get promoted, but they also move on to other
jobs, and so far, Crusher, Troi, Worf, and LaForge have been already
promoted (twice in LaForge's case) and have stayed onboard.
(I won't even mention the strange case of Wesley Crusher's promotions...)
(I'm also thinking of TOS where we rarely saw anyone over the rank of Lt.
other than Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Scott assigned to the Enterprise... I can
only think of two -- Lt. Cdr. Giamatti (?) from "The Devil in the Dark"
(the head security officer, at any rate), and a female officer in a later
episode whose name escapes me. Heck, even Spock was only "Lt. Cdr. Spock"
in his trial during "The Menegerie," though he was definitely a Commander
later on. But I digress...)
--
Matt Gertz, mwge...@cs.cmu.edu
Dept. of ECE, The Robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon University.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu:8001/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/mwgertz/www/home.html
Jon Hodapp
(Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
> If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
>
>
> Troi fumes, but then realizes something
> important in Riker's statements and departs for the holodeck. There, she
> averts the disaster that has stymied her before, by ordering Geordi to repair
> a conduit directly despite the radiation in the crawlway -- in other words,
> by ordering Geordi to his death. Riker closes down the simulation and
> congratulates her on passing the test -- the entire point of which was to see
> if she could make that hard choice.
>
> The fact that they were cured at all is something of a stretch, though. I
> can understand that there may be a cure for radiation poisoning in the 24th
> century. I have a *lot* of difficulty, though, believing that Data could
> find it with a swiss-cheesed memory and make it out of seven herbs and
> spices. It's certainly not impossible (and given that the cures are probably
> fairly routine to the Enterprise crew, there could be easy scenarios to work
> it up), but it made my disbelief sit up and say "yo!" for a minute, unlike
> virtually all of the rest of the show.
>
So, Geordi would be killed by radiation, but
Michael Judson
Jeffrey W. McKeough <j...@twain.ucs.umass.edu> wrote:
:In article <2k92j5$6...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
:Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
:>WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own
:P>If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
::
::In brief: a couple of small plausibility-straining ideas, but mostly
:>terrific.
:
:
:>
:>Lisa and I are having something of a debate about Troi "passing" the final
:>test, though. She thinks it wasn't really demonstrating she might order
:>someone to their deaths in real life, since it was a situation she'd seen
:>three times before and tried several options in already -- and she thinks
:>that Troi might not really do it if push came to shove. I mostly
:>making her kill somebody, which is somewhat ... impractical. Thoughts?
:
:It seems that in practice, Starfleet officers volunteer for
:potentially deadly assignments. While the CO ultimately has to make
:the decision, the situation usually plays out a lot differently. I
:would have expected Geordi to point out that he could repair the
:conduit, and for Troi's dilemma to center on whether to agree with his
:plan. Scotty, O'Brien, McCoy and Data have all volunteered to
:undertake potentially lethal action in order to save others. Spock
:and Sito even managed to die in the process. (I'm not drawing any
:reincarnation parallels here! :-)
I don't think the Commander Test was testing whether or not she would
send a crew member to his death. It was testing whether or not she
would consider it an *option*. Previously, she never even thought
about sending Geordi to his death, whether it would have been real or
a holodeck. That's why Riker said that she didn't have what it takes
to be a Commander. A Commander would have realized that sending
somebody to his death is always an option, whether or not he wants to
do it, or will do it outside of a holodeck. That's why Riker gave
her a hint telling her, "My duty is to the ship." Troi was not
Commander material because she believed that her duty was to the
crew, assuring that *everybody* survive. Until she realizes that her
duty is to the ship, whether or not a few crew members will die in
the process, only then will she have what it takes to be a Commander.
Richard F. Drushel
In a previous article, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) says:
>WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
>If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
>
>In brief: a couple of small plausibility-straining ideas, but mostly
>terrific.
The ideas that strain plausibility are not so small...
>
[excellent synopsis deleted]
> Perfect sense -- but it's
>also something that should have been lethal, and it very nearly *was*, in the
>most realistic treatment of radiation sickness we'll ever get from Trek in
>any form. (When all the complaints I have about the depiction are nitpicks,
>it's not a worry.)
The external depiction of the effects of acute radiation poisoning
is accurate. The deus ex machina cure by an oaken bucket of slop, however,
strains all plausibility. As I have mentioned in a previous post about the
"bad biology", only a nanite-based repair of the radiation damage is
consistent with what we have seen of 24th-century medicine *AND* our
fundamental 20th-century understanding of radiation damage at the DNA level.
More on the implications of this deus ex machina below.
>The biggest one, which is probably not a surprise, was the Data/Talur
>interactions, particularly all the discussion of methodology. After all of
>my ranting about "The Chase" about this time last year, I'm glad to see a
>show that made me feel just as positive about TNG's attention to science as
>"The Chase" made me negative about it. (It's somewhat ironic, I think, that
>Ron Moore co-wrote _both_ stories.) Here, we had points where Talur's
>statements were wrong, but were wrong in ways that were right in terms of
>motivation. Data's correction to her science lesson, while probably just
>amusing to most people, had me virtually cheering: it _was_ pure reasoning
>by analogy, which was the main flaw of scientific thinking at the time. I
>had a blast in all of their discussion, particularly the science lesson and
>her insistence on adding frills to an already shaky theory once Data's
>strength was revealed. (I found myself thinking of Ptolemaic theory:
>epicycles, anyone? :-) )
This discussion of scientific methodology is fine by itself, but
when viewed in terms of the final resolution of the crisis -- Data's
bucket of whatever dumped into the water supply -- it becomes an enormous
cheat. The solution is quite frankly *magic*. It is a conclusion which
does *not* follow from any of the premises, from any of the "empirical"
data. IMHO, this undermines Data's character enormously: for all his
talk of scientific method, his results cannot logically be achieved from
the materials at hand. In trying to score points for Data, the writers
have stabbed him in the back just as surely as those townspeople with
pitchforks and torches. For me, the rationalization that the writers were
trying to do Data a favor, or maybe even indoctrinate the audience in the
scientific method, does not justify the results.
>I also *very* much liked some elements of the ending. While I have a few
>plausibility-straining points I'll get to shortly, I liked the fact that,
>in effect, the Enterprise was *too late* to save anyone or anything. The
>only reason Data wasn't actually _dead_ was a property unique to Data; there
>was no miracle saving of the day here. I was fearing the Enterprise would
>suddenly show up in orbit and beam Data out in the nick of time, then somehow
>distribute a miracle cure; fortunately, I didn't get that.
You *didn't*? Which is worse, a deus ex machina in which Data saves
the day with the Elixir of Life, or one in which Beverly innoculates everyone
with nanites to rebuild their genomes? I don't like any deus ex machinas;
but if I must have one, I'd rather have the too-convenient yet scientifically-
plausible solution. At least pay *some* homage to the fact that TNG is a
flavor of science fiction...
>The fact that they were cured at all is something of a stretch, though. I
>can understand that there may be a cure for radiation poisoning in the 24th
>century. I have a *lot* of difficulty, though, believing that Data could
>find it with a swiss-cheesed memory and make it out of seven herbs and
>spices. It's certainly not impossible (and given that the cures are probably
>fairly routine to the Enterprise crew, there could be easy scenarios to work
>it up), but it made my disbelief sit up and say "yo!" for a minute, unlike
>virtually all of the rest of the show.
Don't you think that the magical quality of Data's cure largely
invalidates his lectures on the virtues of the scientific method? The
contradiction infuriates me to no end.
>Lisa and I are having something of a debate about Troi "passing" the final
>test, though. She thinks it wasn't really demonstrating she might order
>someone to their deaths in real life, since it was a situation she'd seen
>three times before and tried several options in already -- and she thinks
>that Troi might not really do it if push came to shove. I mostly agree, but
>I also don't think there's any _better_ way to test it short of actually
>making her kill somebody, which is somewhat ... impractical. Thoughts?
I feel that the whole idea of making Deanna and Beverly bridge
officers, and especially promoting Deanna to full Commander over Data
(who has served in Starfleet for about 30 years), is tokenism of the worst
kind. What if Geordi had asked Beverly if he could "stretch himself" and
learn to run Sickbay for a shift? Or be a locum tenens for Deanna during
her next vacation to Raisa? I fully expect all Starfleet officers to have
some kind of cross training, apart from specialties (basic first aid,
basic command procedures), but I find it incredible that the level of
performance expected in the bridge test could be easily achieved by
someone whose specialization was totally non technical. It is crystal-
clear why the writers have done this -- to "prove" that the gals are just
as smart in math and science and command as the guys.
But we already have that in TNG's 24th century: Chief Engineer
MacDougal, 50% of the Admirals, Major Kira on DS9. If Wesley Crusher is
damned as a wunderkind, what do these recent events do for the characters
of Beverly and Deanna? Again, the writers' "good intentions" have
weakened the characters. And now that we have so many commanders, the
rank structure of the Enterprise is too top-heavy: too many chiefs and
not enough Indians. Time to break up this cozy bunch and reassign them
all. But with a feature film in the works, we know that won't happen.
"He that breaks a thing to know what it is has left the paths of
wisdom" (I think that's the way Gandalf's quote goes). This last season
of TNG has actively broken too many things without good reason: the
chronology, the warp 5 limit, Bev and Deanna as Captain wannabees. Just
like Data's miracle bucket of medicine, the results do not follow from the
established premises (6 seasons of TNG).
Rich Drushel
Department of Biology, Slug Division :)
Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland, Ohio 44106 U.S.A.
David Mears
> WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
> If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
> Lisa and I are having something of a debate about Troi "passing" the final
> test, though. She thinks it wasn't really demonstrating she might order
> someone to their deaths in real life, since it was a situation she'd seen
> three times before and tried several options in already -- and she thinks
> that Troi might not really do it if push came to shove. I mostly agree, but
> I also don't think there's any _better_ way to test it short of actually
> making her kill somebody, which is somewhat ... impractical. Thoughts?
My thoughts were much along the same lines. While Deanna finally figured
out that the right solution to the simulation was to give an order that
would result in someone's death, there's no indication she would be able
to do it in real life. I don't think it's as important that she'd been
through the test three times as it is that she KNOWS it's only a simulation.
In fact, I think that was intended by Troi's words and actions after the
test was over. She was so matter of fact (i.e. acting in a resigned sort
of way) when she `ordered' Geordi to fix the conduit, like she knew that
was the answer, but she didn't loike doing it. Also, she said something
to Riker (I forget the exact quote) that indicated she wasn't sure she'd
be able to make that decision if she didn't know it was just a simulation.
So, I guess my feeling is that Deanna didn't really pass the test, if the
test was to see if she would be able to give any necessary order in a real
crisis. It's interesting to note here that during Wesley's test for the
Academy, he thought it WAS real, so it was more of a test. (Didn't I read
in one of the novels where they did something to people to make them
temporarily forget they were in a holodeck simulation? That would have
made the test more meaningful.)
> NEXT WEEK:
> Poor Data. First amnesia on a primitive planet, now possession. Poor guy
> can't get a break...
When I saw this preview, it made me think about the episode of Babylon 5
just aired (Infection?).
> Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
> BITNET: tlynch@citjulie
> INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
> UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
David B. Mears
Hewlett-Packard
Cupertino CA
me...@cup.hp.com
Thor Iverson
(spoilers below)
>So, I guess my feeling is that Deanna didn't really pass the test, if the
>test was to see if she would be able to give any necessary order in a real
>crisis. It's interesting to note here that during Wesley's test for the
>Academy, he thought it WAS real, so it was more of a test.
This is important, and I agree--the test is kind of meaningless unless Deanna
really believes that she's sending Geordi to his death. Wesley's test _was_
valid, precisely because he _did_ believe that it was real. And the
repetition of the test is important, too--with a test like the K.M., the
number of times one takes the test is irrelevant, because it is the _reaction_,
not the _action_, that is being examined. In this case, it _is_ relevant,
because Troi had time to go back, re-examine the situation, and try another
solution that didn't occur to her the first time--in other words, it was her
_action_ that mattered. All in all, this doesn't seem a very reliable way
to choose Commanders.
Though it only partially relates, _The First Duty_ came to mind here--assuming
that he could have passed the other facets of the test, it seems that the
group leader (whose name completely escapes me at the moment--Locarno?) would
have easily passed the "engineering" portion of the test--and yet he is unfit
to be an officer (at least according to one writer's standards). There's a
conflict here, somewhere.
Thor
Jacob Huebert
In a previous article, me...@cup.hp.com (David Mears) says:
>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
>
>> WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
>> If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
>
>My thoughts were much along the same lines. While Deanna finally figured
>out that the right solution to the simulation was to give an order that
>would result in someone's death, there's no indication she would be able
>to do it in real life. I don't think it's as important that she'd been
>through the test three times as it is that she KNOWS it's only a simulation.
>In fact, I think that was intended by Troi's words and actions after the
>test was over. She was so matter of fact (i.e. acting in a resigned sort
>of way) when she `ordered' Geordi to fix the conduit, like she knew that
>was the answer, but she didn't loike doing it. Also, she said something
>to Riker (I forget the exact quote) that indicated she wasn't sure she'd
>be able to make that decision if she didn't know it was just a simulation.
True, but remember that the Holodeck is *very* realistic.. it couldn't
have been easy to send someone who looks, talks, acts, and smells like
Geordi LaForge to their death face to face.
--
"I will not be distracted by your feminine ========= Jacob Huebert
wiles." - Quark ========= aa...@yfn.ysu.edu
==========================================================================
Steve Brinich
>when viewed in terms of the final resolution of the crisis -- Data's
>bucket of whatever dumped into the water supply -- it becomes an enormous
>cheat. The solution is quite frankly *magic*. It is a conclusion which
>does *not* follow from any of the premises, from any of the "empirical"
>data. IMHO, this undermines Data's character enormously: for all his
>talk of scientific method, his results cannot logically be achieved from
>the materials at hand. In trying to score points for Data, the writers
>have stabbed him in the back just as surely as those townspeople with
>pitchforks and torches. For me, the rationalization that the writers were
>trying to do Data a favor, or maybe even indoctrinate the audience in the
>scientific method, does not justify the results.
I don't think this can be blamed on the writers of this particular story;
the idea that the right chemical formula will cure radiation sickness and
similar afflictions has been part of Trek rubber science since TOS: "The Deadly
Years".
Steve Brinich | If the government wants us to respect the law, |
<ste...@access.digex.net> | it should set a better example. |
Marika L Whaley
>In article <2k99i7...@twain.ucs.umass.edu>,
>Jeffrey W. McKeough <j...@twain.ucs.umass.edu> wrote:
>:In article <2k92j5$6...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>:Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>:>WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own
>:P>If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
>:>
I agree with both this statement and the one to which it was responding.
Have we ever seen *anyone* order someone to his/her death? People volunteer
all the time, but Picard never says, "Ensign No-Name, go jump in the warp
core and save us all!"
I also agree that the real Geordi would be the one to mention the option
that eventually saved the ship, since he should know better than Troi what
he can fix and what he can't.
>That's why Riker gave
>her a hint telling her, "My duty is to the ship." Troi was not
>Commander material because she believed that her duty was to the
>crew, assuring that *everybody* survive. Until she realizes that her
>duty is to the ship, whether or not a few crew members will die in
>the process, only then will she have what it takes to be a Commander.
>
Small point: I don't think Riker was deliberately giving her a hint, I
think he honestly didn't want her in control of the ship if she couldn't
pass the test!
--Marika mwh...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PSEBber SPiCoC-LoDP and CPTO, JLP SoL
Visualize Whirled Peas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
die Wawafrau
In article <2kdk3q$3...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mwh...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marika L Whaley) writes:
:) >I don't think the Commander Test was testing whether or not she would
:) >send a crew member to his death. It was testing whether or not she
:) >would consider it an *option*. Previously, she never even thought
:) >about sending Geordi to his death, whether it would have been real or
:) >a holodeck. That's why Riker said that she didn't have what it takes
:) >to be a Commander. A Commander would have realized that sending
:) >somebody to his death is always an option, whether or not he wants to
:) >do it, or will do it outside of a holodeck.
:)
:) I agree with both this statement and the one to which it was responding.
:) Have we ever seen *anyone* order someone to his/her death? People volunteer
:) all the time, but Picard never says, "Ensign No-Name, go jump in the warp
:) core and save us all!"
I guess Kirk didn't have what it took. He was willing to have the
Enterprise explode rather than have Spock die.
--
_
(_` "I don't take information from orange,
(_,st :) irritating people."
h...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (TTFN!)
Barry Margolin
>(spoilers below)
>This is important, and I agree--the test is kind of meaningless unless Deanna
>really believes that she's sending Geordi to his death.
Perhaps the intent is not to determine whether Troi would send a crewmember
to his death, but whether she would even consider this. In the process of
taking the test, Troi has learned to expand her options. This could be a
knowledge test, not a character test (although the illusion of reality that
the holodeck supplies can cause a suspension of disbelief that results in
some amount of character testing).
--
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.
bar...@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
Katherine Owen Eldred
>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
>
>> WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
>> If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
Yes! It works! I'm so excited, here's another one!
(much trimmed)
>> Lisa and I are having something of a debate about Troi "passing" the final
>> test, though. She thinks it wasn't really demonstrating she might order
>> someone to their deaths in real life, since it was a situation she'd seen
>> three times before and tried several options in already -- and she thinks
>> that Troi might not really do it if push came to shove. I mostly agree, but
>> I also don't think there's any _better_ way to test it short of actually
>> making her kill somebody, which is somewhat ... impractical. Thoughts?
>
>My thoughts were much along the same lines. While Deanna finally figured
>out that the right solution to the simulation was to give an order that
>would result in someone's death, there's no indication she would be able
>to do it in real life. I don't think it's as important that she'd been
>through the test three times as it is that she KNOWS it's only a simulation.
>In fact, I think that was intended by Troi's words and actions after the
>test was over. She was so matter of fact (i.e. acting in a resigned sort
>of way) when she `ordered' Geordi to fix the conduit, like she knew that
>was the answer, but she didn't loike doing it. Also, she said something
>to Riker (I forget the exact quote) that indicated she wasn't sure she'd
>be able to make that decision if she didn't know it was just a simulation.
It is my fervent hope that *no one* *ever* will 'like' sending someone
else, even a holodeck simulation, to his or her death. And again, I hope
every human being will be uncertain whether he or she could make the
decision to send someone else to death in the abstract, and would admit
that. If Troi had not looked and acted as if 'she didn't like doing it,'
I wouldn't have promoted her for the world.
I hope I've misunderstood the post...I don't think any of us *knows*
absolutely that we would be able to send someone to certain death--but
the realization that the 'death-order' *is* and *must* be an option, I
think, comes very hard to the top brass, as here. It's the realization
that there are situations in which that option is the only available
option that allows Deanna to pass the test--not, I hope, that she
would not hesitate to send anyone to death.
>So, I guess my feeling is that Deanna didn't really pass the test, if the
>test was to see if she would be able to give any necessary order in a real
>crisis.
Again, I think the test was *not* to see if she would be able to give
any necessary order in a crisis, but to see if she understood that the
'death-order,' if you will, *was* a possibility. And I think that
understanding is very difficult to reach, *especially* for someone who
is in the business of saving lives (as Crusher) or helping people save
their own (as Troi).
> It's interesting to note here that during Wesley's test for the
>Academy, he thought it WAS real, so it was more of a test.
True, and I don't have a snappy comeback! :) Except possibly that Wes's
test was the 'psych' evaluation, where he had to face his greatest fear,
and his fear involved facing the same situation Picard faced (?) when
his father died. I would assume, since Deanna *has* spent time in the
Academy, that she, too, had to take this test as an applicant--and her
'greatest fear' was something else.
KOE
Bernard H P Gilroy
officers so rigid that they cannot see _other_ options, we want to be
sure that they _can_ order a death when the safety of everyone else
demands it. The test "passed" by Troi does not give us any such
evidence. The situation was no longer a true, tense life-or-death
thing. Troi had become innured to the threat. Notice how calmly she
walks in and kills Geordi.
>I hope I've misunderstood the post...I don't think any of us *knows*
>absolutely that we would be able to send someone to certain death--but
>the realization that the 'death-order' *is* and *must* be an option, I
>think, comes very hard to the top brass, as here. It's the realization
>that there are situations in which that option is the only available
>option that allows Deanna to pass the test--not, I hope, that she
>would not hesitate to send anyone to death.
No one knows it to 100% certainty. But I do hope that people
in command _can_ say with assurance that if the situation requires
that command, it will be given. They don't have to be comfortable
with it, but they have to be able to do it. I suppose that
firefighters can't say _with certainty_ that they will be able to
brave the fires every time. But we demand that they be certain to
within realistic tolerances.
>
>
>>So, I guess my feeling is that Deanna didn't really pass the test, if the
>>test was to see if she would be able to give any necessary order in a real
>>crisis.
>
>Again, I think the test was *not* to see if she would be able to give
>any necessary order in a crisis, but to see if she understood that the
>'death-order,' if you will, *was* a possibility. And I think that
>understanding is very difficult to reach, *especially* for someone who
>is in the business of saving lives (as Crusher) or helping people save
>their own (as Troi).
There are two purposes to a test as administered in academia,
and I think you are confusing them here. One use of a test, quite
legitimate, is to teach something new by pushing your knowledge past
its current state and forcing you to think. But the other, more basic
purpose of a test is to measure you -- to determine if you meet an
objective standard. The two cannot be combined fairly, really, though
professors always try. The problem is, to measure someone's adherence
to a standard, in fairnes, that standard must be known ahead of time.
In this case, it's certain that Troi knew, intellectually,
that she was placing herself in a position where she might have to
order the death of a crewperson. But she demonstrated -- very
clearly, IMHO -- that she was emotionally unprepared to do it. She
was so unprepared that it didn't even _occur_ to her. Thus, I feel
she _failed_ to meet a reasonable standard. Not only that, but she
failed _three times_ to meet that standard. I think that's
reasonable grounds for failing her.
No matter how difficult that point is to reach, it is clear
that Troi had not reached it. And despite "passing" this "test" she
still hasn't demonstrated that she has reached it yet.
>
>> It's interesting to note here that during Wesley's test for the
>>Academy, he thought it WAS real, so it was more of a test.
>
>True, and I don't have a snappy comeback! :) Except possibly that Wes's
>test was the 'psych' evaluation, where he had to face his greatest fear,
>and his fear involved facing the same situation Picard faced (?) when
>his father died. I would assume, since Deanna *has* spent time in the
>Academy, that she, too, had to take this test as an applicant--and her
>'greatest fear' was something else.
Remember that Troi is _not_ a command officer. It is not
necessary to assume that she went through the same sequence at all.
As might have become evident, I disliked this whole premise in
the subplot. Another poster put it well: Will Crusher allow Riker to
operate on someone to "stretch" himself? While there is naturally
_some_ overlap of skills, it is also clear that Troi is in a
non-technical, non-command career. I don't think it's doing a
service to the ship if someone can gain a bridge shift by suddenly
deciding they'd like one. I would _hope_ that command training takes
a show of more perserverance and ability than that.
Then again, maybe this explains why Riker seems so adept at
losing the ship to boarders....:)
______________________________________________________________________
b | H H | : Bernard HP Gilroy
/ b | H H | \ : gil...@leland.stanford.edu
/ bbb | HHHH ppp | ggg \ :
\ b b | H H p p | g g / : The opinions expressed are mine
\ bbb | H H ppp | ggg / : but are subject to change without
p g : warning or recompense.
p gg
"The purpose of language is not to communicate
But to obscure communication." -- Karl Evander Kaufeld
David Mears
> In article <CLLKH...@cup.hp.com> me...@cup.hp.com (David Mears) writes:
> >Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
> >> WARNING: This post contains spoiler information for TNG's "Thine Own Self".
> >> If you wish thine own self to be spoiler-free, leave the article alone.
No, I wasn't trying to say that Troi should `enjoy' ordering people to
their deaths.
What I wanted to say was that I don't believe the `test' has validated
that Troi has what it takes to do so IF IT BECOMES NECESSARY. It's an
entirely different thing going into a test, KNOWING it's a test, and
casually making an order to send a holographic character to its death,
KNOWING THAT THE CHARACTER IS NOT ALIVE, than it is to make that hard
decision in real life. All she's proven at this point is that she now
understands the test was looking to see if she would come up with that
as a viable answer to the problem. She could have accomplished exactly
the same thing by just going to Riker and saying `The answer to the test
is to order Geordi to fix the conduit, knowing he'll die as a result.'
It's too disconnected from reality. I think the key is that she's taken
the test enough times, and she's knows it's only a simluation, NOT THE
REAL THING, that any decisions she makes for the test are no guarantees
she'd do the same thing under real life circumstances.
So, did she pass the test? Well, I guess it really depends on what the
test was looking for. If the test was trying to determine if she would
recognize the order as an available option, then I guess so. She's now
recognized that was what was being looked for. If it was trying to
determine if she would be able to excercise that option, then I don't
think she's passed it yet.
> KOE