Getting some intelligent discussion going.
Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,
> Anyone out interested in a soc.culture.scottish newsgroup, or dare I say discussion
> forum?
>
> Suggested topics for immediate analysis: Scottish land-use and ownership (Assynt);
> political/ constitutional issues; poetry (Hugh MacDiarmid Centenary 1992); national
> identity and popular culture (rugby, flower of Scotland and all that); language -
> Gaelic and Scots; etc.
>
> Giles Sutherland.
What is wrong with discussing these topics in this news group?
GW
Alan Smaill
Alan Smaill writes:
> Personally I think it's useful to have a larger
> perspective. The group has never been restricted to things celtic in
> the purely language-related use of the term.
I think a perspective that includes regular posts of Scottish football
results and discussions of pre-Celtic Britons is too large!
I hope you're not suggesting a Scottish group withoot the fitba!
--
Alan Smaill, JANET: A.Sm...@uk.ac.ed
Department of Artificial ARPA: A.Smaill%uk.a...@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Intelligence, UUCP: ...!uknet!ed.ac.uk!A.Smaill
Edinburgh University.
Alasdair Grant
Alan Smaill writes:
> Personally I think it's useful to have a larger
> perspective. The group has never been restricted to things celtic in
> the purely language-related use of the term.
I think a perspective that includes regular posts of Scottish football
results and discussions of pre-Celtic Britons is too large!
Let's have a Scottish group, and keep Celtic racialism out of it.
I mean, I don't even know whether I'm 0% or 100% Celtic, and I don't care!
--
Alasdair Grant
JHenderson
=>From article <44...@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk>, by gs...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Giles Sutherland):
=>> Anyone out interested in a soc.culture.scottish newsgroup, or dare I say discussion
=>> forum?
=>>
=>> Suggested topics for immediate analysis: Scottish land-use and ownership (Assynt);
=>> political/ constitutional issues; poetry (Hugh MacDiarmid Centenary 1992); national
=>> identity and popular culture (rugby, flower of Scotland and all that); language -
=>> Gaelic and Scots; etc.
=>What is wrong with discussing these topics in this news group?
Well, for starters, they're all intensely boring, and would require
constant updating of my kill file.
--
=======Jeremy Henderson========jer...@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Annius Groenink
>In article <Bv6KM...@dunaad.co.uk>, a...@dunaad.co.uk (Alan Hunter) writes...
>>In article <1992Sep25....@news.clarkson.edu>
>>wal...@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
>>writes:
>>(Giles Sutherland):
>>>> Anyone out interested in a soc.culture.scottish newsgroup, or dare I
>>>> say discussion forum? >>
>>
>>
And we'll have soc.culture.english for people who live below
Watford Junction...
--
Annius Victor Groenink-- undergraduate student Mathematics and Computer Science
at the university of Utrecht, Netherland. Working at PTT Research Leidschendam
for Sept-Dec. 1992. Laan van Borgele 24, 7415 DJ Deventer, phone +31 5700 29396
or +31 70 33 25445; e-mail A.V.Gr...@research.ptt.nl or avgr...@cs.ruu.nl
Giles Sutherland
>
> Well, for starters, they're all intensely boring, and would require
> constant updating of my kill file.
>
> --
> =======Jeremy Henderson========jer...@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Jeremy:
That unintelligent remark would appear to have disqualified you by default from
participation in discussions of the above. A pity, because you might find them
enlightening and enriching. Why don't you rethink your position? You might have
something worthwhile to contribute.
Giles.
Michael Steven Newton
>Let's have a Scottish group, and keep Celtic racialism out of it.
>I mean, I don't even know whether I'm 0% or 100% Celtic, and I don't care!
>--
>Alasdair Grant
Being Celtic is *not* a racial priviledge, it is a cultural and linguistic
milieau, and a matter of degree. And if you don't care, you don't
count.
Alasdair Grant
> I write:
>>Let's have a Scottish group, and keep Celtic racialism out of it.
>>I mean, I don't even know whether I'm 0% or 100% Celtic, and I don't care!
>
>milieau, and a matter of degree. And if you don't care, you don't
>count.
This sort of attitude is precisely why we need soc.culture.scottish.
Ray Dunn
>>> Anyone out interested in a soc.culture.scottish newsgroup, or dare I
>>> say discussion forum?
>
>There were already two groups, soc.culture.europe, and
>soc.culture.commonwealth. British subjects were debating in both.
>Would anyone doubt the creation of a soc.culture.british group?
>
>Is the creation of a scotland group any different?
Doesn't seem that anyone suggested it was (and I'm not sure that
s.c.commonwealth predated s.c.b anyway). However one of the important
rationales for the creation of a group is high existing traffic in other
less appropriate groups. I don't think there is that.
Over the years there's certainly been times when it would have been nice if
the Scottish discussions could have been extracted from the, cough,
sectarian issues often "discussed" in s.c.c at great length. Even then
tentative proposals for a Scottish only group did not meet with success.
Of late, the traffic in s.c.c has been quite balanced (with a few notable
exceptions!)
I'm not against s.c.scottish, but for the Scots to just abandon s.c.c
leaving it to the Irish and other celts is certainly not 100% appropriate,
but neither are all Scottish topics celtic in nature.
I suggest that before this discsussion progresses, the original proposer
should make it an official RFD in news.groups and news.announce.newgroups
or else we're just wasting our breath anyway.
--
Ray Dunn at home | r...@philmtl.philips.ca | (514) 630 3749
ZHENG,guo
>
>In article <Bv6KM...@dunaad.co.uk>, a...@dunaad.co.uk (Alan Hunter) writes...
>>In article <1992Sep25....@news.clarkson.edu>
>>wal...@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
>>writes:
>>(Giles Sutherland):
>>>> Anyone out interested in a soc.culture.scottish newsgroup, or dare I
>>>> say discussion forum? >>
>>
>>
>There were already two groups, soc.culture.europe, and
>soc.culture.commonwealth. British subjects were debating in both.
>Would anyone doubt the creation of a soc.culture.british group?
>
>Is the creation of a scotland group any different?
>
> Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England. Suas
> Internet: cock...@edieng.enet.dec.com leis
> UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn a'
> Gha\idhlig!
> Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Ray Dunn
>ag...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:
>>Let's have a Scottish group, and keep Celtic racialism out of it.
>>I mean, I don't even know whether I'm 0% or 100% Celtic, and I don't care!
>
>milieau, and a matter of degree.
No need to be pedantic about the use of the term "racialism", Alasdair was
alluding to the N.Ireland wars that frequently flare up in this newsgoup.
You can certainly argue that a part of the celtic milieu is common
linguistic roots, but most Scots speak Scots English, are are not
particularly interested in Gaelic. There's not much else in common either
between the _current_ everyday culture of say Brittany and Scotland.
Everday lives and interests even between the Scots and Irish are different
except that they enjoy each other's folk music!
> And if you don't care, you don't count.
Thanks, Michael, indeed he doesn't _want_ to count here in the .celtic
group, he wants a .scottish group for more relevance to current Scottish
culture.
On balance I think we should certainly try to have a .scottish newsgroup
created, but I'm a little worried that we won't get the required support.
Even now, there's hardly been more than 8 or 10 people who've posted on the
subject.
Let's have a straw poll. I don't want to force myself in here as I wasn't
the original person who proposed it (this time), but no-one else seems to
be taking any action. If you email me if you're in favour, I'll publish
the results and then call officially for the discussion/vote procedure in
news.announce.newgroups (or let someone else do so) if there seems a
possibility that we'll get the required support.
[BTW, I _am_ a Scot, married to a Scot, born in Edinburgh, attended
Heriot-Watt University (was president of the SRC), worked in the School of
Artificial Intelligence (then the Department of Machine Intelligence &
Perception) at Edinburgh University, and maintain close ties with Edinburgh
and area]
Email connection through ..!uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray is generally
reliable.
--
Ray Dunn at home | Beaconsfield, Quebec, Canada.
(514) 630 3749 | r...@philmtl.philips.ca or ..uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray
Alasdair Grant
>In referenced article, ne...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:
>>ag...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:
>>>Let's have a Scottish group, and keep Celtic racialism out of it.
>>>I mean, I don't even know whether I'm 0% or 100% Celtic, and I don't care!
>>
>>Being Celtic is *not* a racial priviledge, it is a cultural and linguistic
>>milieau, and a matter of degree.
>
>No need to be pedantic about the use of the term "racialism", Alasdair was
>alluding to the N.Ireland wars that frequently flare up in this newsgoup.
I simply meant the idea that being Irish, Scottish or Welsh is a matter
of genetics. On the one hand we have people telling us that Ireland is
a Celtic country, on the other they say that Celtic people have certain
kinds of skin/hair colour. Then you combine the two things.
Michael Helm
>of genetics. On the one hand we have people telling us that Ireland is
>a Celtic country, on the other they say that Celtic people have certain
>kinds of skin/hair colour. Then you combine the two things.
But wait! On the, uh, 3rd hand, we have had people tell us the
Irish are not Celtic at all (a la Bob Quinn), & others dispute
the hair/skin color stories. Why did you discount or ignore them?
Alasdair Grant
I am not taking the views (the ones I originally mentioned) as facts,
I am taking the _expression_ of them as indicative of a certain view of
the Celtic countries which marginalises and trivialises debate on them.
It is also clear that American posters to this group tend far more to
this Celtic twilight, Celtic fringe idea, and have no interest in, or
knowledge of, modern Scotland.
Alasdair Grant
>>Michael Helm writes:
>>>Alasdair Grant selectivizes the evidence:
>>>But wait! On the, uh, 3rd hand, we have had people tell us [other bunk]
>
>(Just trying to be bunk-neutral)
>>I am not taking the views (the ones I originally mentioned) as facts,
>>I am taking the _expression_ of them as indicative of a certain view of
>
>said something else. Why?
Because I agree with them. I don't normally argue against myself!
Perhaps I ought to spell it out in laborious detail next time, so
amateur lawyers can't pick holes in it.
>This is a puzzling remark -- no matter what I said, I'd be guilty of
>something. Do you find Americans flaming or turning their backs &
>shunning your intelligent, interesting postings about modern Scottish
>issues? It's too much to ask for proof of this in this past (but if
>you've got it...) but maybe you could point it out when it occurs in
>the future.
Well, perhaps my phrasing was a little misleading. I just meant that
on average, Americans appear to be more interested in 'Celticness'
than in modern Scotland/Wales/whatever. Perhaps, strangely, it has
something to do with the group being called soc.culture.celtic, and
there being no soc.culture.scottish (which is where this all started...)
Michael Helm
AG> I am taking the _expression_ of them as indicative of a certain view of
AG> [celtic twilitism or something]
mike> I understood what you said -- I think you're ignoring the ones who
mike> said something else. Why?
>Because I agree with them. I don't normally argue against myself!
Indeed -- what you are telling me, then, is that when people say
things you don't agree with, you can't abide it. No matter that those
folks' opinions were disputed by many others.
>Perhaps I ought to spell it out in laborious detail next time, so
>amateur lawyers can't pick holes in it.
It pays to be clear & not insulting, at least in most cases.
>on average, Americans appear to be more interested in 'Celticness'
>than in modern Scotland/Wales/whatever. Perhaps, strangely, it has
Perhaps your continued ignoring of the evidence, strangely, says more
about you than about the newsgroups?