On JMS : A minor rant...
SamusekTDS
read by JMS - and he may, in fact, proceed to tear me a new one in
e-text form. But I can't hold it in.)
------------------------------------------
ARGH! Now comes word that JMS is fed up with MGM over Jeremiah after
season 2. That makes, well... EVERY project since B5 (Except Midnight
Nation) that has been aborted, dropped, held back, altered, cancelled,
postponed, or in some way perpetually unfinished.
CRUSADE
RANGERS
JEREMIAH
B5 GRAPHIC NOVEL
RISING STARS
and I can't remember but I think there were one or two more.
At first it was bad luck, then worse luck - but now it's getting just
plain stupid.
The typical rant by a fanboy like me in these circumstances is something
silly like "You owe me" or "How dare this be"... but I (somewhat) know
better.
But I'm still upset.
No, JMS doesn't OWE the fans for supporting his work with Nielsen
ratings and/or dollars. But I feel the need to voice the following fears
and concerns - fair or unfair:
A) I fear he will garner that stain of being "hard to work with". Though
I have no real proof of this - I start to feel that I can't just say
"AGH! he got messed over again by THE MAN", and shrug and wait for the
next thing. EVERY time the same problems crop up. (Interference,
screwing over, internal politics, wacky memos...) I'm sure this stuff
happens a lot, but this is getting excessive.
B) I fear the fans (like myself) will be unwilling to invest time and
attention into future works, afraid of any slight glitch in the system
derailing the whole thing. THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT. JMS writes BIG,
writes EPIC & RUSSIAN. These things take time to build, and are
necessarily slower at first, but hold our attention until the BIG stuff
gets going. This recent track record amounts to a series of giant,
frustrating teases. Which brings me to my next point...
C) This device can create shows that transcend normal television, to the
realm of the much ballyhooed "novel in tv form". But who wants to keep
reading the first chapters of a book, throwing it away and opening
another by the same author. Don't you see, his entire creative process
and the resulting product is being DEVALUED. B5 spoiled me for more
typical episodic fare, but after all this I'd rather have one good
season of an episodic series then FIVE interrupted NOVELS.
D) I... ARRRRGH! I can't go on. I'M JUST REALLY UPSET RIGHT NOW - please
don't hold this against me tomorrow in the sobering light of "day-after"
dawn.
---
Sam.
PS: PLEASE JMS - IF SHOWTIME IS WILLING MAKE ALL 5 SEASONS OF JEREMIAH.
DON'T DO IT FOR US, DO IT FOR BABY TIMMY, LOOK HOW CUTE HE IS. AND THE
COUNTRY OF BOTSWANA. YOU CAN'T DENY BABY TIMMY AND/OR BOTSWANA NOW CAN YOU?
Neil Burton
news:3F223133...@attglobal.net...
> (DISCLAIMER: I write this in full knowledge that it may, in fact, be
> read by JMS - and he may, in fact, proceed to tear me a new one in
> e-text form. But I can't hold it in.)
Some of the same thoughts occured to me. However, consider this: how many
other writer/producers have been through the same thing, but have never even
discussed their grievances, let alone been this honest about them?
Having said that, the idea that JMS' experiences are the rule rather than
the exception is not a pretty one.
Neil B
Wendy of NJ
one to work in for long periods of time. Especially, once you have a
certain amount of money in the bank, you look at the blood that your
"bosses" want from you, and you have to ask yourself "Is this worth it?"
Sometimes, the answer is a resounding NO. There is something to be said
about knowing when to leave a situation, in order to protect one's
health and sanity.
I think if JMS has something he wants to say to the masses, he'll
basically find a way to get it said.
How many different employers have you had over your life? I change jobs
on average, about every 3 or 4 years. Not always by choice, either. And
media jobs (tv, film, print, radio) are even more volatile.
Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
If you believe what he has written in the past, he has always been very
robust as regards people screwing him around, and indeed he probably had a
reputation for taking no shit before taking on Babylon 5. However,
Hollywood notices success - more importantly, they notice financial success;
and the one thing that B5 has a reputation for is a program made on a
fraction of the budget of similar series e.g. Star Trek, and even then, it
came under-budget. The ratings were comparable as well. Do you think it is
a coincidence that as soon as he had got to finish B5, then he was suddenly
approached to do a number of other series?
As for the "unfinished" items, you can separate the comics from the TV work.
Neither "world" really cares what happens in the other.
* Crusade was aborted by TNT, although there is a lot of documented
arguments between TNT and JMS. I guess that this is the most pertinent of
your points.
* Rangers was a pilot. The Sci-Fi channel didn't want to make a series.
This happens all the time - no big deal, and there is no report of any
problems between the Sci-Fi channel and JMS.
* Jeremiah is still ongoing, but JMS doesn't want to work on another series.
So what? There is nothing saying that he is committed to seven seasons of
Jeremiah. His leaving is their loss.
* B5 Graphic novel - I don't remember any problem with this. And anyway,
this is hardly interrupted - we have never seen it!
* Rising Stars - Top Cow reneged on his contract i.e. they are legally in
the wrong. It will eventually be sorted out. Wait.
> B) I fear the fans (like myself) will be unwilling to invest time and
> attention into future works, afraid of any slight glitch in the system
> derailing the whole thing. THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT. JMS writes BIG,
> writes EPIC & RUSSIAN. These things take time to build, and are
> necessarily slower at first, but hold our attention until the BIG stuff
> gets going. This recent track record amounts to a series of giant,
> frustrating teases. Which brings me to my next point...
Well, you are assuming that fans are important in this respect. Even though
*we* know who JMS is, not many people outside the wacky world of Hollywood
would know. I will watch Jeremiah if it ever comes on British TV because I
believe it will be better than average. If the third season comes over
here, I will probably continue watching it regardless, unless it becomes
obviously badly-written. It all depends on the talent and ideas of his
successor.
> C) This device can create shows that transcend normal television, to the
> realm of the much ballyhooed "novel in tv form". But who wants to keep
> reading the first chapters of a book, throwing it away and opening
> another by the same author. Don't you see, his entire creative process
> and the resulting product is being DEVALUED. B5 spoiled me for more
> typical episodic fare, but after all this I'd rather have one good
> season of an episodic series then FIVE interrupted NOVELS.
You are assuming that everything that JMS has done in the past, and will do
in the future is necessarily along the lines of the Babylon 5 arc. The only
two which fit the criteria are Crusade and Rising Stars. But at least we
will eventually see Rising Stars, so only Crusade is truly interrupted.
> D) I... ARRRRGH! I can't go on. I'M JUST REALLY UPSET RIGHT NOW - please
> don't hold this against me tomorrow in the sobering light of "day-after"
> dawn.
I suggest you lie down, and read a decent book. It'll pass.
> ---
> Sam.
>
> PS: PLEASE JMS - IF SHOWTIME IS WILLING MAKE ALL 5 SEASONS OF JEREMIAH.
> DON'T DO IT FOR US, DO IT FOR BABY TIMMY, LOOK HOW CUTE HE IS. AND THE
> COUNTRY OF BOTSWANA. YOU CAN'T DENY BABY TIMMY AND/OR BOTSWANA NOW CAN
YOU?
Facetiousness aside, I would rather JMS work on something that _he_ wants to
do. Working on something you are not enjoying does not allow for good work.
And anyway you are forgetting that he owes us absolutely nothing.
--
Mark Bertenshaw
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
:A) I fear he will garner that stain of being "hard to work with". Though
:I have no real proof of this - I start to feel that I can't just say
:"AGH! he got messed over again by THE MAN", and shrug and wait for the
:next thing. EVERY time the same problems crop up. (Interference,
:screwing over, internal politics, wacky memos...) I'm sure this stuff
:happens a lot, but this is getting excessive.
I feel the same way. JMS must surely bear some responsibility.
[snip]
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"It is easier perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on
the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depths,
where few are willing to search for it." - Goethe
B5fan1
"AGH! he got messed over again by THE MAN", and shrug and wait for the
next thing. EVERY time the same problems crop up"
I hate to say it, because I've been one of the most hard-core JMS fans
out there for years, but . . . I sure know what you mean.
As someone on another group noted:
"It reminds me of a friend of mine who is always complaining about the
women he dates. There's always something wrong with them. "They're
crazy!" "They're nuts!" "They're impossible to deal with!"...
...sorry dude, but after a while you've gotta stop and ask whether its
them or you."
" I fear he will garner that stain of being "hard to work with".
How can he not, if he keeps this up, is my question. Would YOU work
with this guy? Knowing not only the percentage of people he's been
unable to work with successfully but that he habitually trashes each
and every one publicly on his way out the door?
Again, it's like the guy who bad-mouths all his ex-girlfriends all
over town. He may be otherwise charming as hell otherwise, but you
won't go out with him if you've got a lick of sense, because you know,
however much he looks at you with stars in his eyes and swears you're
*different*, you aren't different, you're *next*.
Even brilliant people (and I do count JMS as one, no question) have to
...get along with people. If every time the other kids don't want to
do it just your way, you pick up your ball and go home...you're not
gonna be playing a whole lot of ball.
And if every time the other kids don't play your way you take up a
position on the corner and tell everyone who'll listen what poopyheads
those kids are...eventually you're gonna run out of kids who're
willing to even sit with you on the bus.
Is Hollywood different than the world most of us live in? Sure. But
not THAT different- and not that big. The word gets around at some
point. As Sam said, there's refusing to COMPROMISE, and then there's
refusing to compromise. They *aren't* the same thing. One insures that
your work will be the very best you can possibly make it (assuming
arguendo that you're always right and everybody else is a total
idiot). The other just insures you won't be working.
Jan
You know, folks, this is a case where JMS is damned if he talks to us and
damned it he doesn't.
CRUSADE - Might I remind you that JMS had troubles with TNT for *months* before
we ever heard a word from him? Even when the memo purported to be from them
with 'suggestions' for 'improving' Crusade became public and everybody clamored
at him he never said anything about what was going on. Only after it was over
and beyond repair did he tell his side of things. Considering all of the
speculation going on, who wouldn't?
RANGERS - What's the beef here? He made a pilot and pick-up was contingent on
ratings. It didn't get the ratings needed in the East because of sharing the
same male demographic as the 'Football Game of the Century (that week)' and so
wasn't picked up.
B5 GRAPHIC NOVEL - the last word we had from JMS was on January 25 when he
responded: "It's in need of some spare round tuits...." Funny, that just
sounds like he's been busy. Personally, I never heard of a due date.
RISING STARS - Again, he's damned if he speaks and damned if he doesn't. He
kept silent for *months* in the face of post after post after post (and I don't
want to think how many emails) badgering him over it. He STILL didn't say
anything here, he merely verified what was said in an article and pointed us in
that direction *because we'd kept asking!!!!!*
JEREMIAH - Once again, he's kept silent for months. None of us had ANY hint
that there was anything wrong until Comic Con. How many 'Where's Jeremiah, JMS'
posts have there been? And now he speaks up and gets lambasted. Heck, even if
he hadn't we knew pretty well that a third season was unlikely simply from the
delay in airing it.
Somebody mentioned compromise. Joe gave us some examples of changes he made on
Crusade. You know little things like a whole episode that wasn't originally
planned? With a (gag) really cool fistfight and a race to find public domain
riot footage? How about the rewrites he did on each episode numerous times???
I've got the scripts to prove it was done even if I don't have the 'notes'
requesting the changes. Let me tell you, they look a whole LOT different from
the B5 scripts where there were fewer colored pages and fewer different colors.
If you folks don't like that JMS remains true to the story and demands
professional treatment, feel free to go back to watching 'Mutant X' and
'Andromeda' where the 'compromise' is so blatantly obvious and the rest of us
will continue to support the quality of TV that Joe brings to the screen.
He's always been up front that he'll walk rather than betray his stories and
I'm all for that. He's also shown us nothing but honesty and integrity. Why is
it a 'fault' that he demands the same of the people he's in a business
relationship with?
Jan
Check out my auctions of rare Dark Shadows and Babylon 5 scripts and
memorabilia at http://tinyurl.com/bhkk
Wendy of NJ
yesterday.
I see it more that JMS can "afford" to keep his INTEGRITY when it comes
to working. I can only hope that someday I, too, will be in a position
where I don't have to prostitute myself to eat and put a roof over my
head. (and if you work for Big Corporation, you are basically
prostituting yourself)
-Wendy of NJ
SamusekTDS
> <snip of ranters ranting>
>
> You know, folks, this is a case where JMS is damned if he talks to us and
> damned it he doesn't.
<snip of ranter ranting back at ranters ranting>
A) In regards to what happened to individual series, see my second post
in this thread.
B) Did you *read* my original (very soft-edged) rant? I'm not saying
anything. I did not say anything then, and I'm not saying anything now.
I'm saying even less than you, except for this.
I'm concerned. It's gtting a bit much. I feel the likeliest
probabability is JMS has told us (mostly) the unvarnished truth. I
respect the man and his work. I was discussing the PERCEPTION more then
the FACTS. I have no knowledge of the facts. I wasn't there. So I
comment on the side stories, and the DEVALUATION of JMS' brand of
arc-based storytelling in the eyes of casual tv watchers and diehard fans.
So once more: I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then, and
I'm not saying anything now.
---
Sam.
PS: I can't wait to check out your auctions of rare Dark Shadows and
Jan
>A) In regards to what happened to individual series, see my second post
>in this thread.
I would...but it hasn't shown up yet aparently. What I'm replying to now is
your second post in this thread according to both AOL and Google.
>B) Did you *read* my original (very soft-edged) rant?
Yep. It got a little difficult at times with all of the caps and such but I
read it. And I did cut some slack considering that you were upset and knew
that you were ranting. When I replied it was after at least two other people
chimed in and started commenting on things they have no way of knowing about.
Even you made false statements such as <<EVERY time the same problems crop up.
(Interference,
screwing over, internal politics, wacky memos...) >> which is, of course
provably false.
>So I
>comment on the side stories, and the DEVALUATION of JMS' brand of
>arc-based storytelling in the eyes of casual tv watchers and diehard fans.
By definition, we don't have to worry about diehard fans, right? Fair weather
fans will simply do as they will and casual tv watchers have probably never
even noticed who wrote what when.
>So once more: I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then, and
>I'm not saying anything now.
But I *am* saying something:
- I'm saying that as far as I'm concerned, JMS is right to fight for his work
and right to not allow the stories to be watered down and right to walk away
when he feels it necessary.
- I'm saying that he's earned my trust in his judgment bacause he's proved it
with over 100 hours of quality storytelling on TV and various other media less
'timeable' such as comics, audio drama, novels, short stories and even a fairy
tale and a play.
- I'm saying that disappointment isn't cause to make misstatements that others
might mistake for fact.
Jan
SamusekTDS
>
> I would...but it hasn't shown up yet aparently. What I'm replying to now is
> your second post in this thread according to both AOL and Google.
Yeah... what's up with that - there weren't even that many story ideas
in it. ;-)
> Yep. It got a little difficult at times with all of the caps and such but I
> read it.
Oh, c'mon - don't exaggerate. I only did that excessively at the end for
the gag bit. And how else do you stress a word. Not like I can easily
italicize words in this forum.
> Even you made false statements such as <<EVERY time the same problems crop up.
> (Interference,
> screwing over, internal politics, wacky memos...) >> which is, of course
> provably false.
No - it is always different, but from one or a combination from that
list. This is only going on JMS info posted here. I could work up a
checklist, but this has probably gone on too long anyways.
> - I'm saying that as far as I'm concerned, JMS is right to fight for his work
> and right to not allow the stories to be watered down and right to walk away
> when he feels it necessary.
Agreed.
---
Sam.
Jim Royal
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
In article <3F223133...@attglobal.net>, SamusekTDS
<sam...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> At first it was bad luck, then worse luck - but now it's getting just
> plain stupid.
>
> The typical rant by a fanboy like me in these circumstances is something
> silly like "You owe me" or "How dare this be"... but I (somewhat) know
> better.
>
> But I'm still upset.
Oh, please. JMS must stick with a lousy job so he can entertain you?
It's his career, not yours.
--
Jim Royal
"Understanding is a three-edged sword"
http://JimRoyal.com
SamusekTDS
>
> If you believe what he has written in the past, he has always been very
> robust as regards people screwing him around...
<<snip!>>
> As for the "unfinished" items, you can separate the comics from the TV work.
> Neither "world" really cares what happens in the other.
That was more about me then about whether film/comic people would care.
Besides, comic book people suffer from so massive an inferiority
complex, and are thereby, for lack of a better word - desperate - that a
phenomenal writer like JMS, can just cakewalk through them. He will
ALWAYS have comic work no matter what happens. Look at Kevin Smith:
Unprofessional, sloppy, late - kudos!
> * Crusade was aborted by TNT, although there is a lot of documented
> arguments between TNT and JMS. I guess that this is the most pertinent of
> your points.
> * Rangers was a pilot. The Sci-Fi channel didn't want to make a series.
> This happens all the time - no big deal, and there is no report of any
> problems between the Sci-Fi channel and JMS.
> * Jeremiah is still ongoing, but JMS doesn't want to work on another series.
> So what? There is nothing saying that he is committed to seven seasons of
> Jeremiah. His leaving is their loss.
> * B5 Graphic novel - I don't remember any problem with this. And anyway,
> this is hardly interrupted - we have never seen it!
> * Rising Stars - Top Cow reneged on his contract i.e. they are legally in
> the wrong. It will eventually be sorted out. Wait.
I know all this, I was listing them together. Remember I said "EVERY
project since B5 (Except Midnight Nation) that has been aborted,
dropped, held back, altered, cancelled, postponed, or in some way
perpetually unfinished." I think that list covers all these items.
CRUSADE (cancelled)
RANGERS (cancelled)
JEREMIAH (dropped)
B5 GRAPHIC NOVEL (postponed)
RISING STARS (held back)
I am in no way saying that ALL of these are JMS' fault (I'm not even
saying ANY of these are), my point is for the fans.
> Well, you are assuming that fans are important in this respect.
I believe from past history that JMS cares about his fans, so I was
voicing a concern. I'm not alone in this. A funny story: I've gotten a
couple of e-mails from people too scared (!) to agree with me publicly
in potential - this isn't something so crazy like Vietnam or Iraq that
needs to be discussed in private or hushed tones. We're just doing the
internet thing - voicing our opinions loudly about things totally not
our business.
> You are assuming that everything that JMS has done in the past, and will do
> in the future is necessarily along the lines of the Babylon 5 arc.
No. I'm assuming "everything that JMS has done" will be STRONG, WELL
WRITTEN serials with an arc, even if its not B5-scale. Crusade, Rangers,
Jeremiah, Rising Stars, Midnight Nation... Hell, even Spider-man to a
lesser extent. It's what he does. My strongest point was that GOOD
writing is in danger of being DEVALUED.
> The only two which fit the criteria are Crusade and Rising Stars.
> But at least we will eventually see Rising Stars, so only Crusade
> is truly interrupted.
Will we? I'm not so sure - this Top Cow thing from what I read is pretty
big. And isn't it funny that both issues involved MGM? Related?
> Facetiousness aside, I would rather JMS work on something that _he_ wants to
> do. Working on something you are not enjoying does not allow for good work.
> And anyway you are forgetting that he owes us absolutely nothing.
Aieee - take a joke! After that whole crazy rant, that whole Botswana
thing was just to take the piss out of myself. Later!
PS: If you want a spirited and lively discussion on the matter, visit
this link:
http://community.spacecast.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003981
(It's the message boards at SPACE, the Canadian Sci-fi Channel)
---
Sam.
Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
"Ian Galbraith" <igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote in message
news:rhkbivg3pnvio8dld...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:08:23 +0000 (UTC), SamusekTDS wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> :A) I fear he will garner that stain of being "hard to work with". Though
> :I have no real proof of this - I start to feel that I can't just say
> :"AGH! he got messed over again by THE MAN", and shrug and wait for the
> :next thing. EVERY time the same problems crop up. (Interference,
> :screwing over, internal politics, wacky memos...) I'm sure this stuff
> :happens a lot, but this is getting excessive.
>
> I feel the same way. JMS must surely bear some responsibility.
>
> [snip]
Yeah, it's called integrity. (Also see Harlan Ellison entry :-) ).
--
Mark Bertenshaw
Citizen Vantu
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
never surrender dreams
Until Next Time;
Jan-Willem "Vantu" Kalk
=====
"There's a power that comes from deep inside of you,
'Cause every day you're reaching toward the light!
And you know there's a long long way ahead of you,
But when your wheels get you there,
Things will turn out right!"
-- JAYCE and the Wheeled Warriors
Look for more information about the show at:
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THE ROOT: THE JAYCE AND THE WHEELED WARRIORS ARCHIVE
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Jan
>And how else do you stress a word. Not like I can easily
>italicize words in this forum.
Different people do different things. I use *asterisks* as my all-purpose
stressor. Others use /slashes/ to indicate italics and _underlines_ to
indicate well, underlining. <g> ALL CAPS is still generally considered
shouting.
>> Even you made false statements such as <<EVERY time the same problems crop
>up.
>> (Interference,
>> screwing over, internal politics, wacky memos...) >> which is, of course
>> provably false.
>
>No - it is always different, but from one or a combination from that
>list.
Wrong. And that was my point. Only 3 of the five on your list can be
attributed to your causes. Rangers and the graphic novel don't.
Jan
Check out my auctions of rare Dark Shadows and Babylon 5 scripts and
memorabilia at http://tinyurl.com/bhkk
Jms at B5
quite well, I think. Of the projects cited, only two of the TV projectrs ended
with enmity, Crusade and Jeremiah. I'm on good terms with SFC with Rangers,
good terms with WB on the same basis after B5...the problem with Rangers going
down had nothing to do with personalities or difficulties working with anybody
and everything to do with ratings vs. costs.
The B5 graphic novel has simply been waiting time for me to get it done because
of the number of commitments I've been dealing with.
So the premise is faulty to begin with. You (the original poster) are asking
people or myself to defend something when your premise is misleading and
untrue. There are FAR more difficult people, or people who are perceived as
difficult, out there working nonstop in TV. This is a profession and a town
where eccentricity and difficulty is pretty much expected.
And part of your note proceeds, from my point of view, from fear. There's this
thing of, "Well, you shouldn't make trouble, you'll never work again," which
keeps people in bad places long after they should go, or at least protest. I
don't believe in that kind of weakness or fear. By all rights, I should be
hard-core unemployable. My rep for being a perfectionist, and being a fighter,
has been there from 1984, when I started working in TV. But I've been
consistently employed more than any other writer I know in the field. With
very few short gaps, I've been working in TV almost nonstop for nearly 20
years. That simply doesn't happen.
The reason it happens is because I'm known for being a pain...but also for
being good, very good, at what I do. After Murder, She Wrote ended its run,
they tried without success to get some MSW TV movies going. It totally stalled
out, script after script. Finally, one day, they said, "Well, there's always
Joe." Then they went to lie down for a while, but they made the call, and I
wrote a script that got approved, got made, and broke the logjam.
Jeremiah had lain moribund at Showtime and Lion's Gate for *five years*. They
couldn't get it off the ground. Finally, they said, "Well, there's always
Joe." After the usual lie-down, they called...and it went from a nearly-dead
project to on the air for two years.
And as I write this, I have two new series in development, at least in the
formal pitching and development stage with studios attached, and I've barely
left Jeremiah. I've had to turn down other requests for TV series development
because you can really only do two max at a time, one in first position, the
other in second. No network or studio will take you in third position.
I've *always* been very open about people or situations who piss me off, but
only after being pleasant and negotiating has proven useless, and I've been the
recipient of that lethal combination of arrogant stupidity.
See, if a network or studio and I disagree, then we just disagree, it's
honorable, that's the give and take you *want* on a show. I have a lot of
respect for Showtime, because whenever I wrote a script and kind of glossed
over anything in the first draft, figuring I could address it in the next pass,
they always caught me at it. *Always*. And as annoying as it was at times, it
was also kinda cool and gratifying to know that they were paying that kind of
attention. And we never, ever had a problem. Honorable people can have
honorable disagreements. When that happens, my rule is that I don't walk out
of the room, or let them walk out of the room, until either they convince me of
the rightness of their views, or I do the same to them. They agree not to pull
rank and I agree not to pull a prima donna.
And when you have a situation like that, as big as the arguments may get, I
never have a problem with it. I actually *enjoy* that.
I *do* have a problem with dishonorable behavior. Always have. When someone
lies to me, fucks me, or otherwise acts toward me in a dishonorable way, then
as far as I'm concerned the rules of engagement change at that moment. And I
do so unapologetically.
Why? Because it scares off the snakes. If you know that you're going to be
raked over the coals if you act dishonorably toward me, it mitigates against
those with such intentions, they think twice. Those who are honorable never
seem to have a problem coming to me. It's the same reason I always tell every
studio I work for my three rules: I don't lie, I don't bullshit, and I never,
ever bluff. And I expect the same in return.
So no, as far as my work is concerned, it is not and has *never* been a
problem. And if it ever *were* to become a problem, I'd move off into writing
comics full time, or novels, or something else. I'm more or less set in a
variety of venues. The result is that I write what I want, for whom I want,
and I get paid for doing things I'd have to do for free otherwise.
Your concern, really, is that *you* are afraid that *you* won't get what *you*
want. That ain't my problem. Nor will I allow your fears to become my fears.
I do what I like and I say what I like. I've worked my whole life to get to
that point, a point very few manage to achieve, and if you think I'm going to
change that because you're concerned you might not get your fix of a certain
kind of story...dream on.
As per:
>>So I
>>comment on the side stories, and the DEVALUATION of JMS' brand of
>>arc-based storytelling in the eyes of casual tv watchers and diehard fans.
It ain't my brand in the sense that I do other things, and I don't think I have
it in me to do anything of the complexity of B5 again for television...to write
91 out of 110 eps and be that gonzo nuts in every detail. It damn near killed
me the last time; if I tried it again, it *would* kill me.
It's great that you want the next thing I do to be the same as the last thing I
did. But that ain't why I'm in the game. I want the next thing I do to be
*different* from the last thing I did.
It's the difference between having ten years of storytelling...or one year of
storytelling ten times.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2003 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
SamusekTDS
waited - figuring it was only a matter of time before you pulled away
the curtain on me.
To your credit, you responded with a great deal more civility and
eloquence than I had, and probably more then I deserved in response. :-)
I get the feeling you've said the last you want to say on the subject,
but J.I.C. - a couple of comments/questions on what you wrote:
Jms at B5 wrote:
> I haven't really commented on this because others have addressed the specifics
> quite well, I think. Of the projects cited, only two of the TV projectrs ended
> with enmity, Crusade and Jeremiah. I'm on good terms with SFC with Rangers,
> good terms with WB on the same basis after B5...the problem with Rangers going
> down had nothing to do with personalities or difficulties working with anybody
> and everything to do with ratings vs. costs.
Ok, you got me - I conceded this elsewhere, and I tried to be humble
about it in my earlier ravings, but yes - I have no business whatsoever
commenting on that stuff. It just came out. I'm a schmuck, or at least
some form of typical lunatic fanboy.
> The B5 graphic novel has simply been waiting time for me to get it done because
> of the number of commitments I've been dealing with.
You recently said when asked about future B5 (typo and all - heh):
"Which goes to the note some people post asking why I don't
write in this area anymore, do I not care about it. Yeah, of
course I do, but WB owns it, and if I went otf and started
writing stories in that universe I'd be infringing their
ownership."
A graphic novel to me falls under "writing stories in that universe". I
took that as 'for the foreseeable future B5 is completely off limits by
order of WB'. And reading between the lines, since you hadn't mentioned
the graphic novel in a while - since that odd "round tuit" comment -
that that project had therefore been semi-permanently scuttled. You've
since stated somewhat differently, but that's the information I was
going on - did I misunderstand?
Can you clarify this rather stark statement then?
> And part of your note proceeds, from my point of view, from fear.
You got me again - this is 100% true - but not for the reasons you seem
to think.
> Your concern, really, is that *you* are afraid that *you* won't get what *you*
> want. That ain't my problem. Nor will I allow your fears to become my fears.
> I do what I like and I say what I like. I've worked my whole life to get to
> that point, a point very few manage to achieve, and if you think I'm going to
> change that because you're concerned you might not get your fix of a certain
> kind of story...dream on.
See, that's not at *all* what I meant. Not one bit.
> It ain't my brand in the sense that I do other things, and I don't think I have
> it in me to do anything of the complexity of B5 again for television...to write
> 91 out of 110 eps and be that gonzo nuts in every detail. It damn near killed
> me the last time; if I tried it again, it *would* kill me.
>
> It's great that you want the next thing I do to be the same as the last thing I
> did. But that ain't why I'm in the game. I want the next thing I do to be
> *different* from the last thing I did.
I don't want another B5 (ok that's a blatant lie, but bear with me) - I
never meant to say "write another thing as complex as B5" I meant what
you said in your post - "I'm known ... for being good, very good, at
what I do." Unlike most tv shows, which pander to short attention spans,
simple concepts and characters, and heavy status-quo episodic format,
your writing thrives on building small sub-story threads subtly and
slowly, throwing in character details and elements early on before they
are "necessary" for the plot of a particular later episode, and other
tricks and stuff that is the meat of great storytelling.
I meant your particular "brand" of arc-based storytelling, as in flavour.
In that sense Jeremiah was arc-based, Crusade was, Rangers would have
been, Rising Stars, Midnight Nation, etc... - and those CERTAINLY were
not retreads of B5, and I *loved* every one of them. I think you are a
phenomenal writer, and you certainly don't need me tell you that.
So no, by all means, do as you were going to do anyway - write what you
damn well please, and I'll be watching in the wings.
BUT...
I still feel that all these cancellations (speaking generally, divorced
from you) are devaluing the concept of *building* a show. Of telling a
story intelligently with strong characters and consequences. And you did
not address the *crux* of my rant - the point about the frustration from
continuously reading only the first few chapters of a good novel, and
then losing the book. You certainly don't *owe* the fans another B5, but
the end of a complex story like Jeremiah or Crusade or Rangers or Rising
Stars?
<presumption>
I sometimes feel like you don't quite fully empathize, divorced from the
strong feelings of attachment to the I'm sure you have to the work as
the writer, of the strong sense of attachment your serial stories create
in the viewer. Or if you are fully aware of the full effects of your
power as a storyteller. You move on the next thing, of which, as you
said yourself - there will always be another.
</presumption>
If you turn around tomorrow and write an episodic anthology series or
something - I'm sure I'll like it - but my PERSONAL tastes run to the
thing you do so well indeed, "arc-based" - large or small. And yes, I
would be sad not to see more of that ilk come to fruition. (ie: go the
distance)
SO, to summarize, I humbly ask for your input on three main points:
1) clarifying that B5/WB quote
2) my not-so-novel "novel" point (the source of my Jeremiah frustration
that fueled the rant)
3) telling me you don't think I'm a total ass now, that magically
somehow you can sense that deep down I'm an ok kind of guy, and that I
can continue to post here on good terms :-)
---
Sam.
Jan
>A graphic novel to me falls under "writing stories in that universe". I
>took that as 'for the foreseeable future B5 is completely off limits by
>order of WB'. And reading between the lines, since you hadn't mentioned
>the graphic novel in a while - since that odd "round tuit" comment -
>that that project had therefore been semi-permanently scuttled. You've
>since stated somewhat differently, but that's the information I was
>going on - did I misunderstand?
Yes and no. The graphic novel is a done deal except for being written and
drawn and printed and published. All the contracts are signed and pemissions
gotten. All it awaits is time for JMS to get around to it (a round tuit).
WB hasn't 'ordered' JMS to stop anything, it's simply the nature of their
ownership that JMS has to have permission to write anything in that universe
the same way as anybody else would. (I asked him about this when the short
stories were coming out in the B5 and Amazing Stories magazines).
Jan
Check out my auctions of rare Babylon 5 scripts and memorabilia at
http://tinyurl.com/bhkk
SamusekTDS
> Oh, please. JMS must stick with a lousy job so he can entertain you?
> It's his career, not yours.
>
Dammit - dance, monkey boy, dance! Dance for my amusement!
Bwa-ha-ha!
*sigh*
---
Sam.
Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
> > Well, you are assuming that fans are important in this respect.
>
> I believe from past history that JMS cares about his fans, so I was
> voicing a concern. I'm not alone in this. A funny story: I've gotten a
> couple of e-mails from people too scared (!) to agree with me publicly
> in potential - this isn't something so crazy like Vietnam or Iraq that
> needs to be discussed in private or hushed tones. We're just doing the
> internet thing - voicing our opinions loudly about things totally not
> our business.
Oh my god. That is ludicrous! It *is* possible to criticise Mr.
Straczynski here. How he takes that is another matter i.e. usually badly.
* *
Back to your points, which you really have no justification for:
A) I fear he will garner that stain of being "hard to work with" ....
B) I fear the fans (like myself) will be unwilling to invest time and
attention into future works ....
C) This device can create shows that transcend normal television, to the
realm of the much ballyhooed "novel in tv form". ... his entire creative
process
and the resulting product is being DEVALUED.
A is extremely unlikely.
B is silly - tone down your egos, guys .
C is just wrong - it is up to the producer whether he wants an arc.
> > You are assuming that everything that JMS has done in the past, and will
do
> > in the future is necessarily along the lines of the Babylon 5 arc.
>
> No. I'm assuming "everything that JMS has done" will be STRONG, WELL
> WRITTEN serials with an arc, even if its not B5-scale. Crusade, Rangers,
> Jeremiah, Rising Stars, Midnight Nation... Hell, even Spider-man to a
> lesser extent. It's what he does. My strongest point was that GOOD
> writing is in danger of being DEVALUED.
This is not what you said above. Arc <> GOOD.
> > The only two which fit the criteria are Crusade and Rising Stars.
> > But at least we will eventually see Rising Stars, so only Crusade
> > is truly interrupted.
>
> Will we? I'm not so sure - this Top Cow thing from what I read is pretty
> big. And isn't it funny that both issues involved MGM? Related?
Top Cow have everything to lose by not publishing the last few issues. Not
only will they miss out on the actual issues, they will also miss out on the
lucrative trade paperback income.
> > Facetiousness aside, I would rather JMS work on something that _he_
wants to
> > do. Working on something you are not enjoying does not allow for good
work.
> > And anyway you are forgetting that he owes us absolutely nothing.
>
> Aieee - take a joke! After that whole crazy rant, that whole Botswana
> thing was just to take the piss out of myself. Later!
Hey, I prefaced that last paragraph with "facetiousness aside,". It should
have been fairly obvious that I was referring to the entire tone of your
post.
> PS: If you want a spirited and lively discussion on the matter, visit
> this link:
>
http://community.spacecast.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=00
3981
> (It's the message boards at SPACE, the Canadian Sci-fi Channel)
Actually, no. What's the point? I just took extreme exception to your
post, and replied to it. I am quite happy to leave it at this, if you want.
--
Mark Bertenshaw
Kingston upon Thames
UK
jehanne
"SamusekTDS" wrote:
> ARGH! Now comes word that JMS is fed up with MGM over Jeremiah after
> season 2. That makes, well... EVERY project since B5 (Except Midnight
> Nation) that has been aborted, dropped, held back, altered, cancelled,
> postponed, or in some way perpetually unfinished.
Well... that's not too uncommon in the writing business, from what I
understand. I have a feeling much the same thing could be said about just
about every writer/producer out there. It's part of the busieness
The only "abortions" I think we can really sorta pin at all to JMS himself
are:
> CRUSADE
> RISING STARS
And we know those stories.
> RANGERS
Was a pilot only. Bunches of pilots or potential pilots get to various
stages of production and the vast majority never even made it close to
series. (Plus, if we really wanted to, we can pin this one on 9-11).
> JEREMIAH
And we don't yet know if Jeremiah will survive, post-JMS, or what the
quality will be. Best to hold off on this call, I think.
> B5 GRAPHIC NOVEL
I must admit, I wasn't aware that JMS's Russian stubbornness had killed this
project... details, anyone?
JMS did have (IIRC), pre-B5 stints at "Captain Power" and "The Real
Ghostbusters" that suffered... difficulties... and didn't in the best ways..
And what about the "City of Dreams" audio-drama anthology series - didn't
that stop short of its expected initial run, too.
> No, JMS doesn't OWE the fans for supporting his work with Nielsen
> ratings and/or dollars. But I feel the need to voice the following fears
> and concerns - fair or unfair:
>
> A) I fear he will garner that stain of being "hard to work with".
Possible -- but he also has a reputation of being a very *good* writer.
> C) This device can create shows that transcend normal television, to the
> realm of the much ballyhooed "novel in tv form". But who wants to keep
> reading the first chapters of a book, throwing it away and opening
> another by the same author.
> Don't you see, his entire creative process
> and the resulting product is being DEVALUED. B5 spoiled me for more
> typical episodic fare, but after all this I'd rather have one good
> season of an episodic series then FIVE interrupted NOVELS.
Well... as JMS has commented on past occasions... 100 years from now, most
people won't really know or care about the particular circumstances
surrounding the production of his works... they'll most likely just have the
final product.
Most artists go down in history for only one or two seminal works among a
host of others. Da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" and "Last Supper." Beethoven's fifth
and ninth symphonies. Charlotte Bronte's "Jane Eyre." Victor Hugo's "Les
Miserables." John Cage's " 4' 33" ." Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange
Land." Roddenberry's "Star Trek." ("artists" of different mediums,
abilities, and time periods... it's a pretty widespead phenomenon.)
And, barring something absolutely mind-boggling from JMS in the future, he's
pretty much already secured his place with "Babylon 5."
Because "Babylon 5" will endure. That much I'm confident of.
And that satistifies *me*. Not everyone is as easily satisfied (nor -should-
they be...)
> D) I... ARRRRGH! I can't go on. I'M JUST REALLY UPSET RIGHT NOW - please
> don't hold this against me tomorrow in the sobering light of "day-after"
> dawn.
Fair enough. We all should have the latitude to rant now and then. :)
jehanne
jehanne
"jehanne" wrote:
<a bunch of things>
Funny. I wrote that message almost four days ago and it's just now getting
through.
Seeing as all my points have already been made by other folks, it can now be
safely ignored.
Carry on, nothing interesting here...
jehanne
Dirk A. Loedding
"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.be...@virgin.net> wrote:
>Oh my god. That is ludicrous! It *is* possible to criticise Mr.
>Straczynski here. How he takes that is another matter i.e. usually badly.
Not always. Not even usually. As long as the criticism is
well-considered, and politely-phrased, he usually takes it quite well.
It's when you call him names, tell him he's incompetent, stupid, or
anything along those lines that he takes things badly. Who wouldn't?
--
Thought for the day:
Don't ask me...the cat's in charge around here.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dirk A. Loedding <*> ju...@america.net |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
"Dirk A. Loedding" <ju...@america.net> wrote in message
news:ZaKa8MBA...@america.net...
> In article <3ZaWa.1912$Kx1....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net>,
> "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.be...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> >Oh my god. That is ludicrous! It *is* possible to criticise Mr.
> >Straczynski here. How he takes that is another matter i.e. usually
badly.
>
> Not always. Not even usually. As long as the criticism is
> well-considered, and politely-phrased, he usually takes it quite well.
> It's when you call him names, tell him he's incompetent, stupid, or
> anything along those lines that he takes things badly. Who wouldn't?
I don't want to get into an argument about this. I just am mentioning that
on average, he tends to take the flame-bait. Right or wrong is not the
issue.
SamusekTDS
> It's when you call him names, tell him he's incompetent, stupid, or
> anything along those lines that he takes things badly. Who wouldn't?
I hope you're not suggesting I did any such thing.
---
Sam.
Deathwalker
> "SamusekTDS" <sam...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:3F223133...@attglobal.net...
> > (DISCLAIMER: I write this in full knowledge that it may, in fact, be
> > read by JMS - and he may, in fact, proceed to tear me a new one in
> > e-text form. But I can't hold it in.)
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> >
> > ARGH! Now comes word that JMS is fed up with MGM over Jeremiah after
> > season 2. That makes, well... EVERY project since B5 (Except Midnight
> > Nation) that has been aborted, dropped, held back, altered, cancelled,
> > postponed, or in some way perpetually unfinished.
> >
> > CRUSADE
> > RANGERS
> > JEREMIAH
> > B5 GRAPHIC NOVEL
> > RISING STARS
> > and I can't remember but I think there were one or two more.
> >
> > At first it was bad luck, then worse luck - but now it's getting just
> > plain stupid.
> >
> > The typical rant by a fanboy like me in these circumstances is something
> > silly like "You owe me" or "How dare this be"... but I (somewhat) know
> > better.
> >
> > But I'm still upset.
> >
> > No, JMS doesn't OWE the fans for supporting his work with Nielsen
> > ratings and/or dollars. But I feel the need to voice the following fears
> > and concerns - fair or unfair:
> >
> > A) I fear he will garner that stain of being "hard to work with". Though
> > I have no real proof of this - I start to feel that I can't just say
> > "AGH! he got messed over again by THE MAN", and shrug and wait for the
> > next thing. EVERY time the same problems crop up. (Interference,
> > screwing over, internal politics, wacky memos...) I'm sure this stuff
> > happens a lot, but this is getting excessive.
> >
> > B) I fear the fans (like myself) will be unwilling to invest time and
> > attention into future works, afraid of any slight glitch in the system
> > derailing the whole thing. THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT. JMS writes BIG,
> > writes EPIC & RUSSIAN. These things take time to build, and are
> > necessarily slower at first, but hold our attention until the BIG stuff
> > gets going.
>
> Ah but do they? Thats the big worry of the typical tv executive. Look at
> farscape and firefly and odyssey 7. Its not just jms.
>
> you've also got the attention span of the average american, apparently
> farscape is too weird for people to follow, i must admit if i hadn't
watched
> it from episode one i wouldn't have a clue and didn't really bother with
> season 4 whereas i watched the other seasons and bought the dvds the day
of
> release.
>
> tachyon tv although a satire made the point of saying" sci fi channel
denied
> an SG1 chain reaction it is in fact their standard program schedule now."
My advice, not on the writing side (i'm not worthy) but the commercial (as
an observer of whats happened so far to him and others and the apparent
psychology of studio heads ) for Mr Strazynski would be think smaller. 1
year self contained arc with maybe a wider hidden insideone as well. That
way a plot development won't take 44-50 eps to get going and self contained
series are less of a risk instead of going for the 5 year arc every time.
Watching Crusade it was always mentioned that oh it will take 5 years to
find a cure" i was already thinking zzzzzzzz. A b5 cashcow spin off and
they're gonna string it out for 5 years in single non related "ooh hope
this
ones a cure" and after 4 .75 years a 3 or 4 episode arc about finding THE
cure. So TV execs went oh shit better have some tits in it. Put dureena
in
skin tight catsuit, put that doc in low cut tops etc.. shit it works for
trek year on year.
Ian Lincoln
I am dyslexia of borg your ass will be laminated
"Deathwalker" <ian-l...@blueyonder.co.uk>
Deathwalker
--
Ian Lincoln
I am dyslexia of borg your ass will be laminated
"Jan" <janmsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030731065418...@mb-m15.aol.com...
for $229 i would expect a pen to have been used by jms himself, gold plated
and signed.
Stanley Friesen
>
>And as I write this, I have two new series in development, at least in the
>formal pitching and development stage with studios attached, and I've barely
>left Jeremiah. I've had to turn down other requests for TV series development
>because you can really only do two max at a time, one in first position, the
>other in second. No network or studio will take you in third position.
For good reason - you would never get any sleep or food otherwise.
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
jehanne
"Deathwalker" wrote:
> Watching Crusade it was always mentioned that oh it will take 5 years to
> find a cure" i was already thinking zzzzzzzz. A b5 cashcow spin off and
> they're gonna string it out for 5 years in single non related "ooh hope
> this
> ones a cure" and after 4 .75 years a 3 or 4 episode arc about finding THE
> cure.
Chances are that a cure would have been found well before the 5 year
timetable (my guess is late during the second year).
JMS commented at one point that (and I'm paraphrasing 'cause I can't find
the original quote) had the show continued, we would find out that the show
we were watching was not actually the show we thought we were watching...
(can someone pull that quote out, for reference?) ... as was sort of obvious
from both the Technomage novels and from the unproduced scripts released on
Bookface a couple years back.
It's sorta like B5 being cut off right before "Signs and Portents" -- you
have hidden hints about where things are going to go, but you can't put the
clues together until you know what the larger picture looks like.
Having recently gone back and watched my Crusade tapes again (only my third
time through, ever), I can safely say that (IMHO) it's much better than I
initially gave it credit for...
jehanne
David Williams
"Deathwalker" <ian-l...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fH5Wa.113$Hc3.1...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Watching Crusade it was always mentioned that oh it will take 5 years to
> find a cure" i was already thinking zzzzzzzz. A b5 cashcow spin off and
> they're gonna string it out for 5 years in single non related "ooh hope
> this
> ones a cure" and after 4 .75 years a 3 or 4 episode arc about finding THE
> cure.
> So TV execs went oh shit better have some tits in it. Put
> dureena
> in
> skin tight catsuit, put that doc in low cut tops etc..
First of all, in the interests of good taste, I disagree with your
characterization of Crusade as a "b5 cashcow spin off", that would be
"strung [sic]out for 5 years", etc. If that was your honest expectation,
then you don't deserve a follow-up.
Second of all, if you had watched Crusade closely, you would notice that the
plot points clearly indicated (and jms himself flat out stated) that Crusade
would be a show about a LOT of really big things beside the Drakh plague.
In fact, right from the beginning jms told us that the plague would
eventually take a serious back-seat in the overall story arc for the show.
The Voyager-like arc you describe was definitely NOT the plan.
So again, if your expectations were that low, then you seriously
underestimate 2 things:
1. jms' intent for the show
2. jms' respect for his fans
And I'm sure that jms explained his intentions carefully to those in charge.
And yet, I think we are forced to agree that studio execs do not seem to
have the attention span that a show's audience has, so often fail to
understand where a show is heading. They also have difficulty understanding
the concept of rising tension. Typically all they want to see is climax,
climax, climax. I'm sure that fact was a source of quite a bit of the
tension between jms and TNT.
OTOH, to assert that a simple dispute over, er... sexual content was the
death-knell of Crusade is pretty broad. There were a lot of issues
surrounding the decision. Issues far bigger than the T&A content.
> shit it works for
> trek year on year.
Not really.
-David W.
Wendy of NJ
So, you're implying that TV execs are just porno producers? Or guys who
are worried their viagra's gonna wear off, so they better get it done
FAST. <snicker>
Yes, we all want to see the stripper come out buck nekkid. all that
clothes takin' off just takes too long and who cares anyway?
sigh.
Eliyahu Rooff
"Deathwalker" <ian-l...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fH5Wa.113$Hc3.1...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> My advice, not on the writing side (i'm not worthy) but the commercial
(as
> an observer of whats happened so far to him and others and the apparent
> psychology of studio heads ) for Mr Strazynski would be think smaller. 1
> year self contained arc with maybe a wider hidden insideone as well.
That
> way a plot development won't take 44-50 eps to get going and self
contained
> series are less of a risk instead of going for the 5 year arc every time.
> Watching Crusade it was always mentioned that oh it will take 5 years to
> find a cure" i was already thinking zzzzzzzz. A b5 cashcow spin off and
> they're gonna string it out for 5 years in single non related "ooh hope
> this
> ones a cure" and after 4 .75 years a 3 or 4 episode arc about finding THE
> cure. So TV execs went oh shit better have some tits in it. Put dureena
> in
> skin tight catsuit, put that doc in low cut tops etc.. shit it works for
> trek year on year.
>
OTOH, why do we need to assume that future generations will have the same
sexual hang-ups, body taboos and inhibitions that afflict us? It's just as
reasonable to make the presumption that they'll be comfortable with their
sexuality and won't need to dress like nuns to be perceived as responsible
and intelligent. Clothing styles and social standards will certainly change
back and forth in the future, so there's no reason that SF costuming should
always portray an asexual androgyny in the main characters or that something
that appears sexually enticing to us should carry with it an implication of
"tramp." (Setting aside, for discussion purposes, that I enjoy seeing
attractive and strong women in main roles in SF... :-))
Eliyahu
Dirk A. Loedding
SamusekTDS <sam...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>> It's when you call him names, tell him he's incompetent, stupid, or
>> anything along those lines that he takes things badly. Who wouldn't?
>I hope you're not suggesting I did any such thing.
Not at all. I wouldn't suggest such a thing, if it was the case. I'd
come right out and say so. Subtle, I ain't.
--
Thought for the day:
And I thought I was confused when I *didn't* know what was going on...
Dirk A. Loedding
SamusekTDS <sam...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>> It's when you call him names, tell him he's incompetent, stupid, or
>> anything along those lines that he takes things badly. Who wouldn't?
>I hope you're not suggesting I did any such thing.
Not at all. I wouldn't suggest such a thing, if it was the case. I'd
come right out and say so. Subtle, I ain't.
--
Thought for the day:
And I thought I was confused when I *didn't* know what was going on...
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Matthew Vincent
>Of the projects cited, only two of the TV projects ended
>with enmity, Crusade and Jeremiah.
Yeah, and in both cases the problems happened fairly early on, plus in
both cases the fault was with the networks involved. Like you said, if
you have enough status to get away with standing up to jerks then it
pays to do so; and you're doing a favour for others in the process.
Individuals who stand up to bullies are making an important
contribution by interrupting the process of diffusion of
responsibility that, sadly, tends to let these bullies get away with
their bullying tactics at times.
Like many people, I was disappointed to hear that Jeremiah won't be
returning for a third season; but I'd much rather see you move on to
new projects where your creative freedom will be intact than to see
you stress yourself out drudging through a show impaired by the
constraints put on you by idiots. It's an issue of causality and
responsibility -- the shows concerned were already impaired by the
networks concerned, and you merely wiped your hands of shows whose
potential had already been compromised by the actions of others.
It wasn't you who screwed Crusade; it was TNT.
It wasn't you who screwed Jeremiah; it was MGM.
That's the bottom line here.
Matthew
jehanne
"Matthew Vincent" wrote:
> Like many people, I was disappointed to hear that Jeremiah won't be
> returning for a third season;
Did I miss news that the series was cancelled outright? All I'd heard was
that JMS would not be involved with the show any more...
jehanne
The Nuclear Marine
war...@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in
news:44aa4edb.03080...@posting.google.com:
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
>>Of the projects cited, only two of the TV projects ended
>>with enmity, Crusade and Jeremiah.
>
>
> It wasn't you who screwed Jeremiah; it was MGM.
>
> That's the bottom line here.
>
I thought Jeremiah was screwed by Claire, Polly and Erin. Mind you, he has
a cute ass so maybe Joe was tempted.
Nuke
--
With greater understanding comes deeper satisfaction
Gaps and dead ends in my understanding discomfort me
If I'm afraid, further seeking reveals misunderstanding
I believe it will always be thus.
I seek truth not for fear of loss, nor want of gain, nor need of words
I pursue truth no matter what it is, who says it or what I already believe
The Nuclear Marine
war...@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in
news:44aa4edb.03080...@posting.google.com:
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
>>Of the projects cited, only two of the TV projects ended
>>with enmity, Crusade and Jeremiah.
>
>
> It wasn't you who screwed Jeremiah; it was MGM.
>
> That's the bottom line here.
>
I thought Jeremiah was screwed by Claire, Polly and Erin. Mind you, he has
Dirk A. Loedding
"jehanne" <jehann...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Did I miss news that the series was cancelled outright? All I'd heard was
>that JMS would not be involved with the show any more...
The decision on a 3rd season of Jeremiah has not yet been made, to the
best of my knowledge. What you heard about JMS not being involved if
there are future seasons is quite correct.
--
Thought for the day:
Don't take life seriously...you won't get out alive anyway.
Mena Ryan
>
> It ain't my brand in the sense that I do other things, and I don't think I have
> it in me to do anything of the complexity of B5 again for television...to write
> 91 out of 110 eps and be that gonzo nuts in every detail. It damn near killed
> me the last time; if I tried it again, it *would* kill me.
>
> It's great that you want the next thing I do to be the same as the last thing I
> did. But that ain't why I'm in the game. I want the next thing I do to be
> *different* from the last thing I did.
Have you ever considered trying this? :^)
http://www.geocities.com/jouniac/secret.jpg
--
-------------------------------------
If you want to e-mail me, please use coldyank1 at jolt mail dot com
Hey, what's so funny?
http://user.mc.net/~mena/CATS/laughing.htm
Mena Ryan
>
> Jms at B5 wrote:
> >
> > It ain't my brand in the sense that I do other things, and I don't think I have
> > it in me to do anything of the complexity of B5 again for television...to write
> > 91 out of 110 eps and be that gonzo nuts in every detail. It damn near killed
> > me the last time; if I tried it again, it *would* kill me.
> >
> > It's great that you want the next thing I do to be the same as the last thing I
> > did. But that ain't why I'm in the game. I want the next thing I do to be
> > *different* from the last thing I did.
>
> Have you ever considered trying this? :^)
> http://www.geocities.com/jouniac/secret.jpg
Ugh, I have heard that that link doesn't work if you click on it and
sure enough, I can't get it to either. Sorry...
It does work to go here and click "Neil's secret" (toward the bottom of
the first section) though, I think:
http://www.geocities.com/jouniac/picts.html