Which Linux Certification?
Alexander
I'm thinking of studying for some sort of Linux certification. Preferably
study at home for an end-of-term exam.
Does anyone have any advice on any good Linux certification program
available in Melbourne? How much would it cost (I'm paying out of my own
pocket)?
What sort of certification would be right? I've been using Redhat 6.x - 7.x
for a couple of years, and started playing with Mandrake 9 last week.
I'm not aiming to work as a dedicated system admin. My main job is Java
developer, but I would like some certification to prove I can setup and
maintain my Java Web apps running on Linux boxes.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
--
Alexander Yap
Melbourne, Australia
Pasiphe's Bull
> I'm thinking of studying for some sort of Linux certification.
> Preferably study at home for an end-of-term exam.
>
> Does anyone have any advice on any good Linux certification program
> available in Melbourne? How much would it cost (I'm paying out of my own
> pocket)?
Yep, send me $2 and I'll print you out a Linux Certificate.
Or for just $1.50, I'll send you the .png image and you can print
it out yourself. You could then even print them for your family and
friends.
Certification counts for very little. Save your money.
In fact I've worked for companies that had a policy of _not_
hiring people with 'certification', although I must admit
they really only baulked at MCSEs.
dev@null
Certification is a subject that comes up a lot in the *oracle* groups with
regard to the OCP. One camp is 'forget it it aint worth the paper', the other is
'it's an important qualification'.
I'm somewhere in the middle and it's more to do with expediency than proof of
knowledge.
This has little to do with knowledge, but a lot to do with personel departments
- IMHO, a group of people who should be taken out and shot - twice.
As a pom who has worked on the UK contractor circuit for a long time, you should
be as good as your last contract. People are generally hired on the basis of
their experience and qualifications mean little.
In Aus, however, qualifications, regardless of how useful they are, are much
more important. Check out Jobnet for Oracle DBA and you'll often see
'certified'.
I very much doubt that having the OCP alone is going to land me a DBA role - the
current DBA would see to that - but it will get me past the personel droids and
into the project manager's face.
Soo, I would say that any certification certainly can't hurt even if it doesn't
help that much and the course will often take you to obscure parts of the system
that may just be worth knowing about one day.
Any organisation that has a hiring policy that either wholly includes or
excludes certification is probably not worth working for. Experience is
everything and certification doesn't preclude that. It makes you wonder what
other idiotic policies thay have.
Of course, thay may have a point when it comes to MSCE... :-)
In answer to the original question, I couldn't put you onto a particular course,
you probably need to look for the most common / soon to be common distro install
base. I certainly wouldn't waste my money on courses 'though. Self study is
easier, cheaper and well supported with docs. Use Protometric for the exams -
well it works for OCP.
Soro
Exactly.
You just have to keep in mind that first point-of-contact will usually be
Human Resources people, in other words, morons who didn't get the marks to
study a decent degree.
These no-talent individuals work on key-word matching....much like most
employment agencies. The main challenge is obtaining a face-to-face with
someone in the organisation who actually has a f*cking clue.
Stick with it...and yes, certification is generally only of benefit to the
vendor but it can come in handy to get you past the "Oh dear, you're no
good as you don't have 16 years of .NET experience like it says in this
list!" sh*theads.
Having said all that, in the "Corporate Real World" you'll find the words
"redhat" on most lips when they're discussing GNU/Linux as opposed to
Solaris or AS400 or anything else that doesn't have a "start" button. In
fact, when you're dealing with the suits who are getting hip to some cost
savings at Microsofts expense you'll find that "Redhat" and 'Linux' are
interchangable terms...... none of those guys have even heard of Slack or
Debian or Mandrake..get the picture? Redhat advertises in the glossies
they're so fond of leaving on the boardroom table.
cheery...
Zebee Johnstone
Soro <So...@Soro.com> wrote:
>savings at Microsofts expense you'll find that "Redhat" and 'Linux' are
>interchangable terms...... none of those guys have even heard of Slack or
>Debian or Mandrake..get the picture? Redhat advertises in the glossies
>they're so fond of leaving on the boardroom table.
>
The RH certification is, I think, the only one that has hands on
"install this box to specs" and "this box is broken, fix it" in the exam.
I note that there is a special offer to SAGE members, to take the RHCE
exam for $300 instead of the usual $950.
That blew me away, $950 for an exam? Yeah, and the course
is about 3 grand... Info on the courses and exams at
http://www.redhat.com.au/training/rhce/
If you know RH well, you wouldn't need the course, but I think you'd
need to know it fairly well, and have experience troubleshooting it.
Looking at the info, this is about the only cert I've seen that has
much value. *How* much I don't know, and how much recognition it has I
don't know either... I'd suggest that an explanation of what it entails
should go in the covering letter.
It's still only junior to maybe low intermediate sysadmin level, but
that's a lot better than most I've seen.
I have wondered how I'd do on it, considering I am completely unfamiliar
with the GUI tools :)
Zebee
--
SAGE-AU: The System Administrator's Guild. www.sage-au.org.au
To advance the profession of System Administration by raising
awareness of the need for System Administrators, and educating
System Administrators in technical as well as professional issues.
Soro
>
> The RH certification is, I think, the only one that has hands on
> "install this box to specs" and "this box is broken, fix it" in the exam.
Yep.......it's of a higher standard than the "off the back of a cornflake
packet" multiple choice MCSE garbage.
They have to fix broken boxen and explain their reasoning behind it.
> I note that there is a special offer to SAGE members, to take the RHCE
> exam for $300 instead of the usual $950.
>
> That blew me away, $950 for an exam? Yeah, and the course
> is about 3 grand... Info on the courses and exams at
> http://www.redhat.com.au/training/rhce/
That's about right, vendor certification is a costly business, all those
vender CFO's have to get their BMW's from somewhere you know. Try pricing a
Tru64 or Oracle DBA course sometime, your hair will stand on end, it's
really only an option for people who can con their employer into paying.
> If you know RH well, you wouldn't need the course, but I think you'd
> need to know it fairly well, and have experience troubleshooting it.
> Looking at the info, this is about the only cert I've seen that has
> much value. *How* much I don't know, and how much recognition it has I
> don't know either... I'd suggest that an explanation of what it entails
> should go in the covering letter.
>
> It's still only junior to maybe low intermediate sysadmin level, but
> that's a lot better than most I've seen.
>
> I have wondered how I'd do on it, considering I am completely unfamiliar
> with the GUI tools :)
>
> Zebee
>
There's a heap of certification that's widely known/accepted for the M$
products, Cisco, Novell etc etc but only one for Linux in Oz, and Redhat is
it. As more and more enterprises start picking up and implementing Linux I
suspect the HR drones will soon start nailing "must be redhat certified"
onto the job descriptions before too long.
cheery....
dev@null
> In aus.computers.linux on Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:21:09 +1030
> Soro <So...@Soro.com> wrote:
> >savings at Microsofts expense you'll find that "Redhat" and 'Linux' are
> >interchangable terms...... none of those guys have even heard of Slack or
> >Debian or Mandrake..get the picture? Redhat advertises in the glossies
> >they're so fond of leaving on the boardroom table.
> >
>
> The RH certification is, I think, the only one that has hands on
> "install this box to specs" and "this box is broken, fix it" in the exam.
>
> I note that there is a special offer to SAGE members, to take the RHCE
> exam for $300 instead of the usual $950.
>
> That blew me away, $950 for an exam? Yeah, and the course
> is about 3 grand... Info on the courses and exams at
> http://www.redhat.com.au/training/rhce/
I went Red Hat for no better reason that it's the only Linux certified for
Oracle - my main technology. For the quids you've quoted above I bought a
generic Intel box ($2,200), Red Hat 7.3 ($250), Oracle 8i ($85) and the Sybex
OCP books ($250). Each exam (there are 5) cost $225.
Not only am I picking up good Linux stuff, but it also keeps my hand in on what
I usually see; Unix (pick a flavour).
>
> If you know RH well, you wouldn't need the course, but I think you'd
> need to know it fairly well, and have experience troubleshooting it.
> Looking at the info, this is about the only cert I've seen that has
> much value. *How* much I don't know, and how much recognition it has I
> don't know either... I'd suggest that an explanation of what it entails
> should go in the covering letter.
>
> It's still only junior to maybe low intermediate sysadmin level, but
> that's a lot better than most I've seen.
>
> I have wondered how I'd do on it, considering I am completely unfamiliar
> with the GUI tools :)
Gotta say that I wasn't thinking of getting too down and dirty with the GUI but
Oracle uses this stuff for a lot of their (fairly good) dba tools. The GUI ain't
bad. A little under-developed as yet but certainly at a good point for future
development. I can't wait for the day when I've got the box fully set up and I
can get off this M$ box for every day stuff.
>
> Zebee
Steve
Ian
wrote:
Re: comments on aus.computers.linux
There are plenty of valid arguments for certifications even in the
world of Linux:
http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue33/york.html
Here are some more reasons to pursue a certification:
http://www.lpi.org/why_lpi.html
Basically if Linux is to mature as a corporate solution, as an
administrator you will have to prove your skills beyond the narrow
scope of particular work place implementation and show that you can
comprehend all the capabilities of the OS. Unfortunately for some
people, being loudly opinionated in a newsgroups/forum or endlessly
criticizing Microsoft will not be enough in a corporate environment. I
foresee a typical industry pattern with a rising demand for Linux
certification as companies require employees to be a "known quantity"
ie reliable, dependable and replaceable.
Now to do something a bit unusual and address Alexander’s question.
With the direction that Java development is taking it would be prudent
to have some sort of Linux certification, Sun Certified Java
Programmer should also be a goal.
Certifications that you could pursue are CompTIA Linux plus, LPI, SAIR
http://studyguides.cramsession.com/cramsession/unix/default.asp
http://www.certcities.com/certs/linux_unix/
RHCE practical test centres are AFAIK only in 33 cities in the US so
it’s not a realistic option for Aussies atm.
Linux+ would be a good place to start as it is only one exam and is
fairly easy, on a par with A+ or N+. The non-profit LPI program is
also impressive and extensive.
http://www.lpi.org/c-process.html
Some people prefer self study, others instructor lead training,
usually it’s down to the cost with commercial instructor lead training
costing up to $990AUD per day and you would still need to undertake
additional study to pass an exam.
P2P file sharing programs can provide a wealth of certification study
guides and technical manuals on almost any program. So it could only
cost you time and the exam fee!
For books try Angus & Robertson who have a permanent 20% off sale on
computer books at their 379 Collins Street store. Borders at Chadstone
and McGills at 187 Elizabeth St in the city are also very good. All
three locations have an excellent range of titles for people in
Melbourne.
Examinations are all computer based multi choice or
simulation/diagramming, and they’re very flexible. You can book an
exam an hour before you take it, so you only take it when you’re ready
(depending on test centre availability).
You can book online, but it’s better to ring the toll free number,
most testing centres have both VUE www.vue.com and Prometric
www.2test.com testing stations.
A good site to get more information on certifications is
www.cramsession.com they have good study guides with notes written
around exam requirements, unfortunately they have moved to a pay
system for the PDF versions, with multi page html version being
advertising supported. There are also exam reviews and forums, which
are a bit hit and miss.
Overall certifications shows a base level of knowledge, it also proves
that you have the dedication and organisational skills to study and
pass the test, which can count for more than the actual content of the
exam.
A little more generic reading on certifications:
http://www.certmag.com/issues/jan02/feature_sosbe.cfm
Ian
Soro
> On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:02:16 +1100, Alexander <alex...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I'm thinking of studying for some sort of Linux certification. Preferably
>>study at home for an end-of-term exam.
>>
>>Does anyone have any advice on any good Linux certification program
>>available in Melbourne? How much would it cost (I'm paying out of my own
>>pocket)?
>>
>>What sort of certification would be right? I've been using Redhat 6.x -
>>7.x for a couple of years, and started playing with Mandrake 9 last week.
>>I'm not aiming to work as a dedicated system admin. My main job is Java
>>developer, but I would like some certification to prove I can setup and
>>maintain my Java Web apps running on Linux boxes.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> Re: comments on aus.computers.linux
> There are plenty of valid arguments for certifications even in the
> world of Linux:
> http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue33/york.html
> Here are some more reasons to pursue a certification:
> http://www.lpi.org/why_lpi.html
No-one is denying there is value in certification, even those articles
point out it's mainly to get you past the HR people and the M$ brainwashed
types.
IF you have the luxury of time and money you aim for a recognised degree
course from an accredited university and that's a fact.
> Basically if Linux is to mature as a corporate solution, as an
> administrator you will have to prove your skills beyond the narrow
> scope of particular work place implementation and show that you can
> comprehend all the capabilities of the OS. Unfortunately for some
> people, being loudly opinionated in a newsgroups/forum or endlessly
> criticizing Microsoft will not be enough in a corporate environment. I
> foresee a typical industry pattern with a rising demand for Linux
> certification as companies require employees to be a "known quantity"
> ie reliable, dependable and replaceable.
Unfortunately for you, stating the blindingly obvious changes nothing. Whiz
your CV over to me at some stage, I'll keep you on file, unless I feel
differently.
> Now to do something a bit unusual and address Alexander’s question.
> With the direction that Java development is taking it would be prudent
> to have some sort of Linux certification, Sun Certified Java
> Programmer should also be a goal.
>
> Certifications that you could pursue are CompTIA Linux plus, LPI, SAIR
> http://studyguides.cramsession.com/cramsession/unix/default.asp
> http://www.certcities.com/certs/linux_unix/
Sure....I'd say the HR people or the IT Dept of the organisation you're
potentially looking at will be most impressed by voodoo certs from
somewhere they've never even heard of.
"But hey!, I got this nifty certificate sent all the way from
Florida!..look! look!", my dog has one too"
> RHCE practical test centres are AFAIK only in 33 cities in the US so
> it’s not a realistic option for Aussies atm.
Rubbish.
Last RHCE course I had here (in Adelaide) was two months ago. I'm sorry,
you're the expert, how many RHCE exams have YOU given?
> Linux+ would be a good place to start as it is only one exam and is
> fairly easy, on a par with A+ or N+. The non-profit LPI program is
> also impressive and extensive.
> http://www.lpi.org/c-process.html
As above......meaningless to people that have never heard of them. Any
reputable certification stream must be backed by a vendor who is :
A: Here
b: Known
c: Accredited here, not in Orlando or Quebec.
> Some people prefer self study, others instructor lead training,
> usually it’s down to the cost with commercial instructor lead training
> costing up to $990AUD per day and you would still need to undertake
> additional study to pass an exam.
Incorrect yet again.
Don't take my word for it..contact Redhat Australia...Qld or NSW, ask them.
> P2P file sharing programs can provide a wealth of certification study
> guides and technical manuals on almost any program. So it could only
> cost you time and the exam fee!
That's exactly the point I was making..why not just stick the thing on the
back of a cornflakes packet then?
> For books try Angus & Robertson who have a permanent 20% off sale on
> computer books at their 379 Collins Street store. Borders at Chadstone
> and McGills at 187 Elizabeth St in the city are also very good. All
> three locations have an excellent range of titles for people in
> Melbourne.
Well, there's a no-brainer....also try Unibooks..I presume universities
have bookshops in Vic ?
> Examinations are all computer based multi choice or
> simulation/diagramming, and they’re very flexible. You can book an
> exam an hour before you take it, so you only take it when you’re ready
> (depending on test centre availability).
>
> You can book online, but it’s better to ring the toll free number,
> most testing centres have both VUE www.vue.com and Prometric
> www.2test.com testing stations.
Leave your voodoo certs alone...go redhat and just ring them up.
> A good site to get more information on certifications is
> www.cramsession.com they have good study guides with notes written
> around exam requirements, unfortunately they have moved to a pay
> system for the PDF versions, with multi page html version being
> advertising supported. There are also exam reviews and forums, which
> are a bit hit and miss.
>
> Overall certifications shows a base level of knowledge, it also proves
> that you have the dedication and organisational skills to study and
> pass the test, which can count for more than the actual content of the
> exam.
>
> A little more generic reading on certifications:
> http://www.certmag.com/issues/jan02/feature_sosbe.cfm
>
> Ian
Why thank you for your $0.02 on everything in certification-land and the
wonderful, "opinionated" MS bashers infesting aus.comp.linux.
dev@null
[good info snippage]
As I said, I don't have a problem with certification but it is of limited use
and certainly doesn't guarantee a 'known quantity'. If I'm recruiting, I want
people who can do the job, not people who can pass exams. Unfortunately,
personel departments (or human resources or whatever the hell they are calling
themselves these days) assume the two are synonymous. They are not.
I would neither have a policy of solely recruiting certified people or
uncertified ones but would look at their experience and would test their skill.
As for M$CE, I have worked with the very good and the very bad. Having a M$SC is
not a good predicter of either.
Steve
Mark Addinall
dev@null wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2002 12:05:28 GMT, ze...@zip.com.au (Zebee Johnstone) wrote:
>
>
>>In aus.computers.linux on Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:21:09 +1030
>>Soro <So...@Soro.com> wrote:
>>
>>>savings at Microsofts expense you'll find that "Redhat" and 'Linux' are
>>>interchangable terms...... none of those guys have even heard of Slack or
>>>Debian or Mandrake..get the picture? Redhat advertises in the glossies
>>>they're so fond of leaving on the boardroom table.
>>>
>>
>>The RH certification is, I think, the only one that has hands on
>>"install this box to specs" and "this box is broken, fix it" in the exam.
>>
>>I note that there is a special offer to SAGE members, to take the RHCE
>>exam for $300 instead of the usual $950.
>>
>>That blew me away, $950 for an exam? Yeah, and the course
>>is about 3 grand... Info on the courses and exams at
>>http://www.redhat.com.au/training/rhce/
>
>
> I went Red Hat for no better reason that it's the only Linux certified for
> Oracle - my main technology. For the quids you've quoted above I bought a
> generic Intel box ($2,200),
Jesus. What is it?
This littlebeast (apt-description and host name ;-)
set me back $38. Get my newish dual CPU machine
next week. $180. My Sparc20 was a bit of a hike
coming in at pennies over $400.
> Red Hat 7.3 ($250),
What? Are you a troll?
> Oracle 8i ($85) and the Sybex
You are a troll...
Mark Addinall.
Mark Addinall
Ian wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:02:16 +1100, Alexander <alex...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I'm thinking of studying for some sort of Linux certification. Preferably
>>study at home for an end-of-term exam.
If it makes you feel good, do it. It will not help you get
a job, but if you are into bits of paper, then there is no harm in it.
>>
>>Does anyone have any advice on any good Linux certification program
>>available in Melbourne? How much would it cost (I'm paying out of my own
>>pocket)?
>>
>>What sort of certification would be right? I've been using Redhat 6.x - 7.x
>>for a couple of years, and started playing with Mandrake 9 last week.
>>I'm not aiming to work as a dedicated system admin. My main job is Java
>>developer, but I would like some certification to prove I can setup and
>>maintain my Java Web apps running on Linux boxes.
Stick a few up on the web and point prospective employers at them.
If they are good, then that is a load better than a scrap of
paper.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any advice.
Good luck.
Now...
>
>
> Re: comments on aus.computers.linux
> There are plenty of valid arguments for certifications even in the
> world of Linux:
> http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue33/york.html
> Here are some more reasons to pursue a certification:
> http://www.lpi.org/why_lpi.html
>
> Basically if Linux is to mature as a corporate solution,
Linux IS a corporate solution. Don't you read much?
The world is shifting to Linux at a great rate of knots
at the moment. Desktops through super computers. Banko
de Brasil made it public last week or so that they were
losing 70,000 Microslop licenses and switching to Linux.
Amazon.com has already swapped to Linux and shaved a neat $25
million (US) per year off the IT spend.
Unfortunately, in Australia, IT management is poor. The
big spenders in IT are the guvmint and if you have ever had
the pleasure of trying to talk the public service into doing
something sensible, you will know why we are not running
Linux all over the place.
> as an
> administrator you will have to prove your skills beyond the narrow
> scope of particular work place implementation and show that you can
> comprehend all the capabilities of the OS.
What a load of rubbish. Work place implementation is anything
other than narrow. When I get a CV on my desk, it is always "Oh yeah,
he/she was on that roll-out...". I hardly ever take notice of
"Certificate in...blah...blah".
> Unfortunately for some
> people, being loudly opinionated in a newsgroups/forum or endlessly
> criticizing Microsoft will not be enough in a corporate environment.
Works for me <shrug>.
> I
> foresee a typical industry pattern with a rising demand for Linux
> certification as companies require employees to be a "known quantity"
> ie reliable, dependable and replaceable.
How does a certificate denote reliability and dependability?
What nonsense. Sounds like you want to take all the creative
Linux people and turn them into drones. MicroBorg Software Inc.
>
> Now to do something a bit unusual and address Alexander’s question.
> With the direction that Java development is taking it would be prudent
> to have some sort of Linux certification, Sun Certified Java
> Programmer should also be a goal.
Phhht.
>
> Certifications that you could pursue are CompTIA Linux plus, LPI, SAIR
Or build something good. Makes a bigger impact.
Mark Addinall.
> Ian
>
Zebee Johnstone
Mark Addinall <madd...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>What a load of rubbish. Work place implementation is anything
>other than narrow. When I get a CV on my desk, it is always "Oh yeah,
>he/she was on that roll-out...". I hardly ever take notice of
>"Certificate in...blah...blah".
>
And if the poor bugger hasn't got the experience?
If you are trying to break in, then a certificate says at least "got
off his arse".
That's what they are - something to distinguish entry level people
from each other.
They are also helpful to those trying to change career "I have done
these non-IT things that show I am useful as an employee, and this
shows I can absorb info about computers too"
Major hassle is that there are very few entry level positions.
And a hell of a lot of entry level applicants!
Best way to get an IT job is by word of mouth, by someone else saying
"yeah, they know their stuff, worth the chance". That could be
someone in the industry already, it might be someone where you work
right now who knows you want to do IT and there's a vacancy in your
company for someone. Many employers prefer to use employees they
already have rather than go to the difficulty and expense of hiring
someone. Especially if that person has already been doing IT stuff
for them, acting, unpaid...
If you can't do that, and you don't have the runs on the board, then
work on getting non-IT runs. Work on that famous "excellent
communicator" thing. "I have written documentation for these open
source projects, I am a member of Toastmasters to improve my ability
to do presentations and to inform non-technical people, my volunteer
work at the football club has shown me how to deal with people and get
them working together" sort of thing.
You want to stand out. you want to have them think "OK, this one is
different from the other 300".
Not all jobs are in huge companies. Lots of them are in small ones.
And even the huge companies can be attracted by a resume that's not a
carbon copy of all the other ones.
Zebee
Mark Addinall
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:00:53 +0800
> Mark Addinall <madd...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>What a load of rubbish. Work place implementation is anything
>>other than narrow. When I get a CV on my desk, it is always "Oh yeah,
>>he/she was on that roll-out...". I hardly ever take notice of
>>"Certificate in...blah...blah".
>>
>
>
> And if the poor bugger hasn't got the experience?
Then it is hard. Increasingly so.
>
> If you are trying to break in, then a certificate says at least "got
> off his arse".
>
> That's what they are - something to distinguish entry level people
> from each other.
I disagree. Especially with the courses mentioned. No-one
hires a systems administrator with no commercial experience.
No-one.
The better way to join the industry is to join as an entry
level programmer, and do a few years at that before deciding
on a Sys admin path.
>
> They are also helpful to those trying to change career "I have done
> these non-IT things that show I am useful as an employee, and this
> shows I can absorb info about computers too"
I'm not saying they are bad. Just not much use. Certainly
not worth thousands and thousands of dollars. This scam has
been going on forever. I remember some mates of mine paying
a royal bribe for a Computer Power course years ago.
Same deal then "How terribly uninteresting".
>
> Major hassle is that there are very few entry level positions.
>
> And a hell of a lot of entry level applicants!
You have both of those points correct.
>
> Best way to get an IT job is by word of mouth, by someone else saying
> "yeah, they know their stuff, worth the chance". That could be
> someone in the industry already, it might be someone where you work
> right now who knows you want to do IT and there's a vacancy in your
> company for someone. Many employers prefer to use employees they
> already have rather than go to the difficulty and expense of hiring
> someone. Especially if that person has already been doing IT stuff
> for them, acting, unpaid...
Well, I got my first position in IT by being persistent and offering
to work for free. I got the job I was after (some 23 years ago) and
not for free. A junior wage which I quickly upped. Last year as
a big important manager I met a nice bloke who was doing some sort
of a course and was working in my department for free. He was a nurse
and got tired of it. I never saw his certificate, but talked to him
to get a feel for what he wanted to do. I recommended that the
department offer him a position in entry level support.
>
> If you can't do that, and you don't have the runs on the board, then
> work on getting non-IT runs. Work on that famous "excellent
> communicator" thing. "I have written documentation for these open
> source projects, I am a member of Toastmasters to improve my ability
> to do presentations and to inform non-technical people, my volunteer
> work at the football club has shown me how to deal with people and get
> them working together" sort of thing.
>
> You want to stand out. you want to have them think "OK, this one is
> different from the other 300".
I don't have a problem with any of that. Join a club, AUUG. Meet
people. Work on some open source projects. Christ, I'm too scared
to add-up the pro-bono work I do in a year.
>
> Not all jobs are in huge companies. Lots of them are in small ones.
No shit?
> And even the huge companies can be attracted by a resume that's not a
> carbon copy of all the other ones.
Obviously.
Mark Addinall.
>
>
> Zebee
Zebee Johnstone
Mark Addinall <madd...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>I'm not saying they are bad. Just not much use. Certainly
>not worth thousands and thousands of dollars. This scam has
>been going on forever. I remember some mates of mine paying
>a royal bribe for a Computer Power course years ago.
>Same deal then "How terribly uninteresting".
>
Funny, I know several people who got quite good jobs via Computer
Power. Or Control Data as it was then.
I think the RH cert is probably useful to go from phone droid to
sysadmin, but I agree that most certs are not much use, and they
certainly won't get you the interview on their own.
Nor will a degree or a TAFE course, but the advantage of those is that
you get to show you can stick to something for a reasonable length of
time, and you can also get and show off high marks. Plus if you are
good and willing you can be the one the lecturer thinks of when asked
"who have you got?"
(And they do get asked that. )
None of it is guaranteed. But the more effort you put in to show
yourself off, the better your chances.
Zebee
Soro
> In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:03:41 +0800
> Mark Addinall <madd...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> I think the RH cert is probably useful to go from phone droid to
> sysadmin, but I agree that most certs are not much use, and they
> certainly won't get you the interview on their own.
>
> Nor will a degree or a TAFE course, but the advantage of those is that
> you get to show you can stick to something for a reasonable length of
> time, and you can also get and show off high marks.
While I agree with the second part of that statement I must take issue with
the first. I don't know the people you're talking about but I can honestly
say that I do not know of a single person who's left Uni in the last 6-7
years degree qualified in a discipline such as Engineering or Comp SCi or
maybe having a Masters in IT that has remained unemployed for longer than a
month or so.
*gasp.... long sentence, nevermind, it's late*
I'm really trying here... although I obviously don't know all graduates
personally I'm thinking of everyone I know that has graduated since 1995 or
so and I can't think of anyone who's unemployed or working outside of their
field. I chose 1995 as it's fairly recent, I graduated in 1987.
If you're a graduate of a decent course you will not be waiting on tables
in 6 months....can't say the same for the Arts students though :)
wi...@xxxx.swaggie.net
> say that I do not know of a single person who's left Uni in the last 6-7
> years degree qualified in a discipline such as Engineering or Comp SCi or
> maybe having a Masters in IT that has remained unemployed for longer than a
> month or so.
you obviously know a bunch of mugs, in that case!!!!
9/10 for effort, 0/10 for intelligence!
(either that, or they live in melbourne and therefore can't work out how
to get to the beach and/or why the fuck you'd want to go there anyway!)
;-)
will
--
Mark Addinall
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:03:41 +0800
> Mark Addinall <madd...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>>I'm not saying they are bad. Just not much use. Certainly
>>not worth thousands and thousands of dollars. This scam has
>>been going on forever. I remember some mates of mine paying
>>a royal bribe for a Computer Power course years ago.
>>Same deal then "How terribly uninteresting".
>>
>
>
> Funny, I know several people who got quite good jobs via Computer
> Power. Or Control Data as it was then.
>
> I think the RH cert is probably useful to go from phone droid to
> sysadmin, but I agree that most certs are not much use, and they
> certainly won't get you the interview on their own.
>
> Nor will a degree or a TAFE course,
A degree is a good start. Quite possibly the best way
of getting an entry level position.
> but the advantage of those is that
> you get to show you can stick to something for a reasonable length of
> time, and you can also get and show off high marks. Plus if you are
> good and willing you can be the one the lecturer thinks of when asked
> "who have you got?"
>
> (And they do get asked that. )
I know. I used to ask QUT all the time. Prof George Mohay gave me
some of the best engineers in the world (no lie) to come and work
in my company.
>
> None of it is guaranteed. But the more effort you put in to show
> yourself off, the better your chances.
No argument there.
Mark Addinall.
>
> Zebee
Zebee Johnstone
Soro <So...@Soro.com> wrote:
>Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>>
>> Nor will a degree or a TAFE course, but the advantage of those is that
>> you get to show you can stick to something for a reasonable length of
>> time, and you can also get and show off high marks.
>
>While I agree with the second part of that statement I must take issue with
>the first. I don't know the people you're talking about but I can honestly
>say that I do not know of a single person who's left Uni in the last 6-7
>years degree qualified in a discipline such as Engineering or Comp SCi or
>maybe having a Masters in IT that has remained unemployed for longer than a
>month or so.
The unemployment stats say different. You have a small sample, they
have a large one. It's up to about 14% last I looked.
>
>I'm really trying here... although I obviously don't know all graduates
>personally I'm thinking of everyone I know that has graduated since 1995 or
>so and I can't think of anyone who's unemployed or working outside of their
>field. I chose 1995 as it's fairly recent, I graduated in 1987.
>
>If you're a graduate of a decent course you will not be waiting on tables
>in 6 months....can't say the same for the Arts students though :)
Take a good look at the job stats. The top guys of the new grads are
still fine, but it's no longer an automatic job.
In 1995 it was still bloody easy. And people who graduated then and
got a job then now have the all important experience.
Someone who picks up their degree or diploma this year had better have
good marks and some experience gathered during the time they spent on
it or they will find it very hard going.
There are experienced sysadmins and programmers out there who have
been out of work for months. They pop up on the SAGE lists now and
then.
Pasiphe's Bull
> You just have to keep in mind that first point-of-contact will usually
> be Human Resources people, in other words, morons who didn't get the
> marks to study a decent degree.
>
> These no-talent individuals work on key-word matching....much like most
> employment agencies. The main challenge is obtaining a face-to-face with
> someone in the organisation who actually has a f*cking clue.
But that's the point, they keyword match.
So ensure your CV is littered with a short summary of keywords
for all previous positions, then include a more indepth description
on subsequent pages. Employment agencies rarely read past the first
page - except maybe with keyword searches.
Pasiphe's Bull
> That blew me away, $950 for an exam? Yeah, and the course is about 3
> grand... Info on the courses and exams at
> http://www.redhat.com.au/training/rhce/
Yeah it's a bloody ripoff.
If it was $50-100 (to cover expenses) I could understand.
Zebee Johnstone
The expenses would be more than that.
There appears to be what, 3 hours of time? You need to cover
competent supervision, you need a set up and teardown of the practical
part, the facilities for same, and the marking which can't be done via
machine.
I dunno it's $950, but I would say $300-$500 commercial rates.
Alexander
Thanks for all the feedback to my question.
After some research, I think I'll go for CompTIA Linux+ certification. Its
less costly than the others ($375 for a single exam) and covers the topics
useful to supplement my main job (Java developer) for the forseeable
future. Some of the others, like RHCE, are probably overkill for my
immediate needs.
I'm not getting this Linux certification to change my job. But it does help
give some confidence to my clients/bosses that I know enough about the
Linux boxes that I'm deploying my Java Web apps on. Of course, I can always
tell people that I've been using Linux for 2+ years, but having a Linux
certificate "proves" it.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
Alexander
tel...@xenon.triode.bogus.au
> Unfortunately, in Australia, IT management is poor. The
> big spenders in IT are the guvmint and if you have ever had
> the pleasure of trying to talk the public service into doing
> something sensible, you will know why we are not running
> Linux all over the place.
Australia is merely slow, always has been. Fashion here is
behind the US and Europe, music and films get released late here,
old rock bands come to Austrlaia to put in their "one last tour"
and management trends ape whatever was the big thing overseas 5 to 10
years ago.
My old man was telling me about trying to order transistors
back in the days when transistors were a new idea and what you could
buy in Australia was the obsolete models that no one could sell
anywhere else... nothing changes.
I predict that Aus govt will be the last bastion where Microsoft
operating systems make their final showdown, in about 15 years.
>> I
>> foresee a typical industry pattern with a rising demand for Linux
>> certification as companies require employees to be a "known quantity"
>> ie reliable, dependable and replaceable.
> How does a certificate denote reliability and dependability?
> What nonsense. Sounds like you want to take all the creative
> Linux people and turn them into drones. MicroBorg Software Inc.
Yup, that is the main idea. You can tell some people till you are
blue that swapping developers around between projects is not merely
a numbers game and that humans can't be summarised into a spreadsheet
but they still won't believe you.
>> Sun Certified Java Programmer should also be a goal.
> Phhht.
I though the objective was Linux certification?
Maybe astrophysics is worth a try...
- Tel
Soro
> In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 01 Dec 2002 22:08:47 +1030
> Soro <So...@Soro.com> wrote:
>>Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>>>
>>> Nor will a degree or a TAFE course, but the advantage of those is that
>>> you get to show you can stick to something for a reasonable length of
>>> time, and you can also get and show off high marks.
>>
>>While I agree with the second part of that statement I must take issue
>>with the first. I don't know the people you're talking about but I can
>>honestly say that I do not know of a single person who's left Uni in the
>>last 6-7 years degree qualified in a discipline such as Engineering or
>>Comp SCi or maybe having a Masters in IT that has remained unemployed for
>>longer than a month or so.
>
> The unemployment stats say different. You have a small sample, they
> have a large one. It's up to about 14% last I looked.
>
Hmm..ok, that seems quite high. Just to clarify, 14% of engineers and
soforth are out of work?
I still can't think of one engineering graduate who's driving cabs.
Bruce Fountain
> The better way to join the industry is to join as an entry
> level programmer, and do a few years at that before deciding
> on a Sys admin path.
This is probably a stupid thing to say in a forum like this, but
why would anyone choose sysadmin if they could be a programmer?
Why get paid less so that you can get yelled at and bitched at
constantly? Why would you want to run around like a headless
chook with a constant list of 20 items on your todo list, knowing
that you will never get to the end of the list?
I always figured that a decent sysadmin would never be out of
work, which is one advantage over a development career, but
from what zebee has been saying even sysadmins are sitting on
the beach.
Bruce Fountain
Soro
> Mark Addinall <madd...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:<3DE9D06...@iprimus.com.au>...
>> The better way to join the industry is to join as an entry
>> level programmer, and do a few years at that before deciding
>> on a Sys admin path.
>
> This is probably a stupid thing to say in a forum like this, but
> why would anyone choose sysadmin if they could be a programmer?
Umm..horses for courses I suppose ?
What's a programmer anyway?, a propellor head COBOL guru or some clown let
lose with VB for a few months?
Point, click, drag ain't programming :)
I just think that "hard" skills are still relatively rare out there. In
SysAdmin land you have the MSCE's, in Progamming land you have the
"click/drag/drop" brigade....both hopelessly useless and ignorant of the
fundamentals and mostly unable to function out of the strict confines of
one particular vendors flawed interpretation of something.
I guess it's the difference between writing a symphony for the philharmonic
and banging out a 30 sec "doof doof" choon on your ProTracker clone.
Real coders use VI or EMACs, not me though...after BASIC, PASCAl, C and C++
it all got ahead of me, I'll admit it and I personally think Hell contains
a few million lines of code you'd have to debug somewhere while the
vultures eat your kidneys. :)
wi...@xxxx.swaggie.net
> This is probably a stupid thing to say in a forum like this, but
> why would anyone choose sysadmin if they could be a programmer?
i've done both (assembler programmer - 20 years ago now) and i prefer
sysadmin. but i wouldn't do either of them for money these days - well,
not full-time, certainly, anyway. i'd rather be digging a hole in the hot
sun for a quarter of the money than sitting on me arse in poxy aircon and
fluoros, in front of a computer all day, fucking me lungs, me back, me
eyes and me mind! once me eyesight's gone and me back's fucked, no ammount
of money can buy them back!
will
--
Zebee Johnstone
Bruce Fountain <bru...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
>
>This is probably a stupid thing to say in a forum like this, but
>why would anyone choose sysadmin if they could be a programmer?
Cos I don't like coding and I do like the varied job of sysadmin.
Sure, I'll write the scripts I need, and I'm doing some perlprog on
the side, but I would take my sysadmin job (quite well paid at senior
levels) over a coder's job any day.
Whereas there are those who can sysadmin quite well but prefer to
code.
Zebee
Jonathan2s6
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