Rape-torture victim sought in Miami
Alt torture
Let me introduce myself. I am not a Dom or Master.
I do not lovingly inflict pain. And I am not part of the
bdsm community. I am a sadistic rapist. I have no
interest in submissives. I seek females who like a moth
are drawn to the flame of sexual violation and slow erotic
torture.
Like "Mr. politically incorrect," I do not employ safe
words, though I am careful not to take pain beyond a
certain point. Part of my expertise is knowing just how
much pain a subject can safely take, mentally. A lot of
"experts" and edge players will say this is impossible,
that without safewords it is easy to go too far. In
general, this may be true, but I am not typical.
Not only do I not engage in edge play, I don't
draw blood or use needles, or do anything likely
to leave permanent marks. My pleasure is inflicting
erotic pain to varying degrees, not in causing damage
to the body. I, also, don't play with scat or excretory
fluids. My scenes are all aesthetic.
On the other hand, I do enjoy flaying a female past
the point where she would normally want me to stop,
But I am careful not to go much past this point. It is
more like pushing limits, than completely exceeding
them.
I use nipple clamps, fishing line, electroshock,
candle wax, ice, ice water, hot mineral oil, alcohol,
witch hazel, Ben Gay, and an assortment of lubricated,
phallus-shaped objects which can be slowly and
painfully forced into various orifices. I employ safe
creative bondage. I am careful not to cutoff circulation,
or put victims in positions that cause painful cramps.
I am careful so that if a slip or fall takes place, there
is no danger. I always have a way to quickly free
victims should the need arise. I am very thorough.
And I never leave a victim unattended.
I do make use of knives, blindfolds, and gags. I like
cutting and ripping clothes-off my victims I like torturing
my bound victims into having more orgasms than they
have ever had.
I like exotic settings like the woods or abandoned buildings.
I like instilling fear, though the fear I create is all illusory.
I am very good at reading emotional states. I am very
careful to make sure my victim doesn't panic. I try to
keep my victim near the edge, but I am careful to reassure
her if I see any signs of nervousness. There are times I
choose to comfort my victim.
I qualified for Mensa. I think this is important to say,
because a lot of unfortunate accidents happen because
there are a lot of people who are not too bright and don't
realize what is dangerous and what is safe. I also have
considerable knowledge of electronics and electricity.
All it takes is a tenth of an amp to send a healthy heart
into ventricular fibrillation. There really is a lot to know
about safe torture, and it does require a fair amount
of intelligence and considerable experience to avoid
dangerous and unpleasent situations.
My scenes are filled with real drama. When I "play" these
scenes I do not act. I merely indulge the dark side of my
psyche. I try to emotionally bond with my rape victims.
And I hope when we are finished, they have confronted
their worst fears, and found they lived through them, no
worse for the wear.
I, myself, am not submissive or a masochist, but I am a
switch. I am not interested in female doms. But I do have
an interest in allowing myself to be tortured by females who
were molested as children or who themselves were
traumatically raped. Like a moth to the flame I crave playing
the role of a rapist or pedophile who has the tables turned
against him, and is forced to suffer at the hands of his victim.
Again these are roles, I can play convincingly because they
are part of my psyche.
I am a very law-abiding, compassionate person, who helps
others and rescues animals, but I, also, possess sick
sexual desires. If my sexual desires weren't balanced by
another personality quirk, moral fanaticism, I could easily
be a sexual predator of the worse type. So if you need a
rapist, or you want to face and overcome your worst fears,
contact me. Or if you have anger to vent for past trauma,
and you've dreamed of the ways you would take revenge
on your perp, contact me. If you have turned your anger
inward toward yourself, and you have suffered from bitterness,
depression, substance abuse, or other problems, contact me.
Maybe, I can help you learn how to redirect your anger
outward. You may now feel you are incapable of doing this
because two wrongs don't make a right, but I can explain to
you why this is important for your recovery. It is natural
and deadly for abuse victims to bottle up their anger and
deny their ego, expression. You may feel you are damaged
and worthless. You may not feel comfortable unless you are
in a relationship with a Dom or master. You may be inured
to this kind of relationship and may not want to change it.
You may fear becoming like your perp. I can help you
understand how these perceptions are hurting your
development. I don't mind answering any questions you
may have.
Best regards,
alt.torture
PS. Obviously, this post is not directed at most participants
here who simply enjoy D/s and bdsm for reasons
that have nothing to do with past trauma, or who
have no interest in living-out rape fantasies and such.
Before you criticize me, I ask you first to consider
whether you are a black pot living in a glass house.
PSS. If you are a female, and you want to learn how
you can prevent yourself from becoming more
of a victim than you are willing to become in
dealing with strangers you meet on the Internet,
I can give you a few tips.
PSSS I am super, super careful to make sure there
are no misunderstandings. I don't do anything
with anyone unless I know them better than they
know themselves, which is often the case.
Jack Lagneia
a lotta stuff including:
>I am not part of the bdsm community.
as well as:
> Before you criticize me, I ask you first to consider
> whether you are a black pot living in a glass house.
I finally figured it out. I am a black pot living in a glass house.
And I thought I was just a smart-assed white boy from down South.
It seems that another loose screw rolled into Florida. I wonder if
will keep on rolling on past Key West.
Jack Lagneia
Many falsehoods are passing into uncontradicted history.
- Samuel Johnson
Alt torture
There are a lost of nasty, angry, bitter, hostile people
on usenet with axes to grind and big chips on their
shoulder to toss. Please excuse me, if I don't dance
with them. I didn't post here to get into a scat slinging,
pissing contest. I think I mentioned in my post that
I strive to only involve myself in aesthetic scenes.
Outside the sexual arena, I tend to be a really nice
person and totally non-aggressive (unless there is
absolutely no other alternative). I believe life is too
short to waste on negative emotions and negative
people. I try to focus on the good, not the bad;
on the constructive, not the destructive.
So, if you are an asp overloaded with venom,
please relieve yourself in another direction.
If you choose to ejaculate your invective in this
direction, you will simply be ignored. If you need
to slam dance and head bang, find a willing partner.
Otherwise, I leave you alone, and wish you success
with limbic masturbation of your negative emotions.
Best regards,
alt.torture
Dark Dezire
You say you are a sadistic rapist... that doesn't suggest consensual
sex, which is what the subject her is.
You say you are a sadistic rapist and you don't lovingly inflict
pain... yet you say you are a nice person.... contradiction.
Your post reads like a personal ad yet you post it to a group that
contradicts everything you say.
Who are you?
Dark Dezire
A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts
feel so good
Spyral Fox
<dag...@duluth.com> writes:
>Hey Mensa boy,
I personally resent the fact that clowns like the poster are
claiming to be Mensa-eligible and eroding the image I try to
project of the organization as a fairly nice one to belong to,
which does lots of fun things as well as supporting a number
of social causes. I've posted before about some of the
benefits of membership to the individual and some of the
community activities that Mensa local groups are involved in,
so I won't repeat it here.
That said....
As a 25-year member of Mensa, I think you're misusing the
name of a fairly nice support group in replying to this
obvious nut case and pulling that one little claim out of the
post to make it a primary target.
Clearly, this guy is a jerk -- anyone who plays the Mensa card
as a credential in itself proves the he is an idiot. But I've
hung out with enough people who claim to be Mensa-eligible
who are NOT ("well, you know, the test I took was biased, it's
really just a scam, I could join if I wanted to") that I don't take
it especially seriously when someone says they are eligble
for Mensa.
I am not the only Mensa member who posts to SSB regularly,
and there are certainly a large number of regular posters
here who are Mensa eligible but don't wish to belong. Sure,
there are some strange introverted people in Mensa who
totally lack social skills... but the vast majority of Mensa members
are the ones who blend invisibly with society.
Nothing personal -- I just hate to see the group sterotyped;
my reaction would be the same if the poster mentioned he
was Jewish or Left-Handed or something and you pulled
that out to be your salutation.
As for the poster, I personally find it amazing that anyone
would name themselves after a newsgroup.
- - Spyral Fox
SSBB Diplomatic Corps member & Depooty Charter Enforcer (CLG)
San Diego's Migratory Munch is back!
Resource Page: http://members.aol.com/spyralfox/index.html
SSBB Cookbook: http://members.aol.com/ssbbcooks/
Philip the Foole
Similarly, there are far more self-proclaimed "black belts" walking
around than have ever set foot in a dojo.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
Intelligence, like the quality of being a "Master," is an area in which
it is prudent to allow the observer to draw their own conclusions.
- Ancient Kung Foole Proverb
Tanguero
>Hi there,
>There are a lost of nasty, angry, bitter, hostile people
>on usenet with axes to grind and big chips on their
>shoulder to toss. Please excuse me, if I don't dance
>with them.
99% chance that anyone who starts their post this way is a troll.
I'd ignore this guy (after sending appropriate
complaints to his ISP, of course).
>I didn't post here to get into a scat slinging,
>pissing contest.
PISS is the word, I think.
Magician and whisper
Appropriate or not, wanted or not, even true or not, it certainly got him a
lot of attention, didn't it?
I'd speculate that this may have been the underlying motive.
Norton Zenger
>Hi there,
>
>There are a lost of nasty, angry, bitter, hostile people
>on usenet with axes to grind and big chips on their
>shoulder to toss.
Let's see. You call yourself a sadistic rapist who wants nothing to
do with BDSM (and presumably the safe, sane and consensual credo that
comes with it), yet you post to a BDSM newsgroup... specifically, you
post a _personal ad_ to a BDSM newsgroup, which is explicitly
prohibited by the charter... and you are shocked to get less than a
friendly reaction?
Yep, we got ourselves a real genius here.
--
"FUCKING STUPID BASTARD COMPUTERS! FUCKING INFORMATION
SUPERHIGHWAY HORSESHIT! MAKE LIFE EASIER MY HAIRY FAT
COCK! BRING ME THE HEAD OF BILL FUCKING GATES!"- Starr
Mailing list: http://www.topica.com/lists/bdsm_under30
Norton Zenger
>As for the poster, I personally find it amazing that anyone
>would name themselves after a newsgroup.
Oh, same here.
- alt.fan.richard-nixon
TyMeDwn1st
>On 14 Aug 2001 10:13:40 GMT, altto...@aol.com (Alt torture) wrote:
> I am a sadistic rapist.
>
>You say you are a sadistic rapist... that doesn't suggest consensual
>sex, which is what the subject her is.
>
>You say you are a sadistic rapist and you don't lovingly inflict
>pain... yet you say you are a nice person.... contradiction.
>
>Your post reads like a personal ad yet you post it to a group that
>contradicts everything you say.
>
>Who are you?
He's an idiot refugee from alt.torture, where they pretty much accept him for
the moronic troll that he's being here.
Ty
Who is mostly just
a slightly skewed
Donna Reed
Take a moment to do a good deed ~~~> http://www.quickdonations.com
Alt torture
"John Warren" men...@bdsbbs.com wrote,
>> . . . I also have considerable knowledge of electronics
>> and electricity. All it takes is a tenth of an amp to send
>> a healthy heart into ventricular fibrillation . . .
>
> Actually, according to the tables published by Underwriter's
> Laboratory, it takes a microamp (one millionth of an amp)
> to cause ventricular fibrillation. One tenth of an amp is in
> the 50-to-150-milliamp range reported to cause respiratory
> arrest. There certainly is a lot to know.
I have only seen this claim regarding UL in bdsm sources.
I am not convinced it is accurate. But even if you believe
these sources, they all claim that the one microamp current
they are referring to is current going through the middle
muscular layer of the heart wall. This is not practical information.
It is not common even for edge players in the bdsm community to
open the chest of their victims and apply electrodes directly
to the heart. At least, I presume this is not a common practice,
one never knows. ;-)
A tenth of an amp is exactly 100 milliamps and that is
approximately what is necessary to cause ventricular
fibrillation. I am carefull not to subject my victims to
more than 5 ma. You will notice from the sources
below that the threshold for sensation generally speaking
starts at one milliamp. I believe using the nipples and
sensitive body parts makes electric play safer because
far less current needs to be used. I've seen it written
that electrodes placed on the nipples are dangerous
because the current must traverse the heart. I claim
that the nipples are so sensitve that you are not going
to come anywhere near the current needed to induce
ventricular fibrillation with the electrodes so placed.
Anyway, I convinced that any current below 5 ma is
reasonably safe. I always use devices that are
incapable of producing more than 5 ma even when
short-circuited. As an extra safety precaution, I always
incorporate a fast burn 5 ma fuse into what equipment
I use.
http://deip.ccs.ua.edu/wbt/labsafety/glossary/ventricular_fibrillation.htm
Ventricular Fibrillation
The level of current which causes the ventricles of the
heart to experience rapid uncoordinated contractions
resulting in death. Ventricular fibrillation occurs at
approximately 100 milliamps of current.
====================================================
http://pchem.scs.uiuc.edu/pchemlab/electric.htm
As the current approaches 100 milliamps, ventricular fibrillation
of the heart occurs-an uncoordinated twitching of the walls of
the heart's ventricles.
====================================================
http://www.stanselectric.com/shock.html
While any amount of current over 10 milliamps (0.01 amp) is capable
of producing painful to severe shock, currents between 100 and
200 mA(0.1 to 0.2 amp) are lethal . . . . As the current approaches
100 milliamps, ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs - an
uncoordinated twitching of the walls of the heart's ventricles.
====================================================
http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~phys153/electricshock.html
Currents between about 100 and 200 milliamps result in ventricular
fibrillation of the heart, which means an uncoordinated and uncontrolled
twitching of the heart muscles.
====================================================
http://www.ahernpainting.com/apcsafety/sec7a12.htm
It has been estimated that 50 milliamps is sufficient to cause ventricular
fibrillation
====================================================
http://www.insulatedtools.com/arc.html
100+ milliamps ventricular fibrillation (usually fatal)
====================================================
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:3XG3OAjX0xc:solstice.crest.org/effici
ency/ev-list-archive/9909/msg00455.html+ventricular+fibrillation+heart+mil
liamps&hl=en&lr=lang_en
The National Electrical Code (NEC) considers 5 milliamps
(0.005 Amps) to be a safe upper limit for children and adults hence the
5 milliamps GFI circuit breaker requirement for wet locations.
Ventricular fibrillation can occur at current levels as low as 30 milliamps
for a two year old child and 60 milliamps for adults. Most adults will go
into ventricular fibrillation at hand to hand currents below 100 milliamps
(0.1 Amp).
====================================================
http://www.calpoly.edu/~cm/studpage/kmriley/electsafe.htm
1,000-4,300 milliamps Ventricular fibrillation. (rhythmic pumping of heart
ceases)
====================================================
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/users/safety/electrical/electrical4.html
As current approaches 100 mA, ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs.
Ventricular fibrillation is defined as "very rapid uncoordinated contractions
of the ventricles of the heart resulting in loss of synchronization between
heartbeat and pulse beat."
====================================================
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/docs/osh_tr/ch26.html
Ventricular fibrillation of the heart (stopping of rhythmic pumping action) can
be initiated by a current flow of 75 milliamps or greater for 5 seconds or more
through the chest cavity of a 150 pound (68.2 kg) person.
====================================================
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_376.html
It takes a mere 100 milliamps of current flowing through your bod to bring
on a killer dose of "ventricular fibrillation," as they call it in the trade.
====================================================
http://129.97.56.96/resources/electricity.html
====================================================
http://distance-ed.bcc.ctc.edu/cs110rh/IT217/week_1/Measuring.htm
.1-.3A (100-300 mA) Ventricular fibrillation, fatal if continued.
Respiratory function continues.
====================================================
http://www.stanselectric.com/shock.html
While any amount of current over 10 milliamps (0.01 amp) is capable
of producing painful to severe shock, currents between 100 and
200 mA(0.1 to 0.2 amp) are lethal . . . . As the current approaches
100 milliamps, ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs - an
uncoordinated twitching of the walls of the heart's ventricles.
====================================================
http://www.cosm.sc.edu/~phys153/electricshock.html
Currents between about 100 and 200 milliamps result in ventricular
fibrillation of the heart, which means an uncoordinated and uncontrolled
twitching of the heart muscles.
====================================================
http://www.ahernpainting.com/apcsafety/sec7a12.htm
It has been estimated that 50 milliamps is sufficient to cause ventricular
fibrillation
====================================================
http://www.insulatedtools.com/arc.html
100+ milliamps ventricular fibrillation (usually fatal)
====================================================
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:3XG3OAjX0xc:solstice.crest.org/effici
ency/ev-list-archive/9909/msg00455.html+ventricular+fibrillation+heart+mil
liamps&hl=en&lr=lang_en
The National Electrical Code (NEC) considers 5 milliamps
(0.005 Amps) to be a safe upper limit for children and adults hence the
5 milliamps GFI circuit breaker requirement for wet locations.
Ventricular fibrillation can occur at current levels as low as 30 milliamps
for a two year old child and 60 milliamps for adults. Most adults will go
into ventricular fibrillation at hand to hand currents below 100 milliamps
(0.1 Amp).
====================================================
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/users/safety/electrical/electrical4.html
As current approaches 100 mA, ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs.
Ventricular fibrillation is defined as "very rapid uncoordinated contractions
of the ventricles of the heart resulting in loss of synchronization between
heartbeat and pulse beat."
====================================================
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/docs/osh_tr/ch26.html
Ventricular fibrillation of the heart (stopping of rhythmic pumping action) can
be initiated by a current flow of 75 milliamps or greater for 5 seconds or more
through the chest cavity of a 150 pound (68.2 kg) person.
====================================================
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_376.html
It takes a mere 100 milliamps of current flowing through your bod to bring
on a killer dose of "ventricular fibrillation," as they call it in the trade.
====================================================
http://129.97.56.96/resources/electricity.html
====================================================
http://distance-ed.bcc.ctc.edu/cs110rh/IT217/week_1/Measuring.htm
.1-.3A (100-300 mA) Ventricular fibrillation, fatal if continued.
Respiratory function continues.
====================================================
http://www.bio.anl.gov/building202/Elecsafe.htm
Possible ventricular fibrillation and death 100 mA
====================================================
http://www.spyyard.com/details_taser_basic_kit.htm
A compressed nitrogen gas cartridge fires projectiles that inflict 50,000
volts of discharge into the subject, along with 7 Watts and 22 Milliamps
of measureable power, the highest conventional stun gun current found
anywhere. The charge continues automatically for several seconds
and can be activated again by depressing the trigger. It leaves
assailants incapacitated long afterwards. The AIR TASER current of
0.3 joules is well below the 10-50 joule threshold above which cardiac
ventricular fibrillation can occur.
====================================================
[The information on these two S&M sites and and other S&M sites that
essentially duplicate it appears to be wrong. It suggests that ventricular
fibrillation doesn't really start until 1 amp, when most sources claim that
the danger starts around .1 amp]
http://www.mistresspandora.com/safety.html
http://www.bdsmlife.net/dsworld/archives_99/pop2.html
It's the amps that kill.
1 microamp – ventricular fibrillation when applied to the myocardium
1 milliamp – perception/tingling. (This is the lower threshold of most TENS
units)
5 milliamps – slight shocks to discomfort. (High end of most TENS units)
6 to 30 milliamps – painful shocks, loss of muscle control, "freezing"
muscles and approaching the "let go" range. (relaxicisors are at this level)
50 to 150 milliamps – extreme pain, respiratory arrest, severe muscle
contractions
1 to 5 amps – ventricular fibrillation, nerve damage, death most likely
(electric chair range)
10 amps externally – cardiac arrest, severe burns, probable death (lightning
strike)
====================================================
[There appears to be a similar error on this web site where it
claims that 1000 milliamps are needed for ventricular fibrillation,
but also claims that 100 ma causes ventricular fibrillation. It seems
the extra zero is a typo.]
http://ecampus.bentley.edu/dept/phys/electrical_safety.htm
Experimental studies show that as little as 100 milliamps (mA) of
60 Hertz (Hz) alternating current can be fatal,
====================================================
[Here is another site with a similar typo.]
http://www.calpoly.edu/~cm/studpage/kmriley/electsafe.htm
====================================================
[Here is another site with a similar typo.]
http://www.calpoly.edu/~cm/studpage/kmriley/electsafe.htm
1,000-4,300 milliamps Ventricular fibrillation. (rhythmic pumping of heart
ceases)
====================================================
[From here I would presume 24 ma is safe, since they used this
voltage on human test subjects.]
http://files.chatnfiles.com/Space%20and%20Astronomy/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V11_3/V1
1_353.TXT
In a series of experiments, 150 male volunteers had various currents
passed from hand to hand.
Below 1 mA, 50Hz A.C., the current is virtually undetectable. Above
this level pain increases to be very unpleasant at 9 mA. Most healthy
men can let go at this point, but none could release above 24 mA.
At 20mA or greater, lung muscles contract and breathing stops,
although it may restart naturally if the current is stopped quickly.
By this stage there is also great pain with burns.
Experiments with animals from guinea-pigs to cows have revealed a
linear relationship between weight and current required to cause
ventricular fibrillation. There was also a relationship between the
time between current (I, milliAmps) and time (T, Seconds). Assuming a
body weight of 50 kg (8 stone) this is
I = 116/sqrt(T)
In other words, 50mA for 5 seconds would probably cause fibrillation.
It was easier to cause fibrillation than to stop the heart completely.
(Note: a fibrillating heart is harder to restart than a completely
stopped one: the fibrillation must be stopped and the heart then
restarted.)
With frequencies either side of 50 Hz there is a marginal imprevecontact
with bare skin, hand to hand or hand to foot gives about 2500 ohms at
25 volts, reducing to 1000 ohms at 250 volts with a minimum asymptotic
value of 650 ohms. This suggests that a maximum safe voltage is only
35 volts, although of course contacts are usually glancing rather than
full grip, and shoes and clothing increase safety considerably. Never
the less, potential danger is present.
====================================================
http://www.netcore.ca/biomed/page55.html
At levels higher than 80ma, the person could suffer ventricular fibrillation.
====================================================
http://www.theelectricchair.com/index.htm
I suppose this is the site one might be interested in if they miscalculate
the correct ventricular fibrillation current.
Best regards,
alt.torture
Alt torture
"LARRY Osburn" MAH...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>> Actually, according to the tables published by Underwriter's
>> Laboratory, it takes a microamp (one millionth of an amp)
>> to cause ventricular fibrillation.
>
> this is in an opperating room and applied to the heart
> directly this is in an opperating room and applied to
> the heart directly
Indeed, this knowledge could prove useful knowledge
to edge players who like medical scenes, sticking needles
into their subs, and who routinely engage in kinky open-
heart surgery. I hear suspending weights directly from
the heart, putting clamps on the heart, inserting dildos
directly into the left-ventricle, and branding and/or tatooing
the heart have become popular practices in certain parts of
the country. Some people complain that such practices are
not sane, but I say this is just another example of YKINOK.
I mean open-heart surgery can be safe, if certain precautions
are taken, like having a heart surgeon on standby in case
things go wrong. And I don't see how branding or tatooing the
heart is any different than any other kind of extreme body
modification. I think it is a sign of ultimate devotion when
a slave is willing to have her master's initials or name
branded or tattooed directly on her heart. Of course,
placing electrodes directly on the heart, and shocking it
can be a little dangerous, but so are many human activities.
Do you realize how much you take your life in your hands
every time you get in your car and drive to the store to
go grocery shopping. Many more people die every year
from driving to the grocery store, than from practicing kinky
open-heart surgery.
Best regards,
alt.toture also known as "The Kinky Surgeon"
Here is the Web site of a friend of mine who feels humans
should not have all the fun when it comes to extreme fetish
body modification.
Alt torture
> Pretty good personal. It'll upset some people but they
> wouldn't be interested in your services anyway.
Hi and thanks,
It is pretty difficult for me to post a message on usenet
that is not going to upset a lot of people. It sounds pretty
foolish to me not to allow personals at all in a newsgroup
like this, especially since personals often triple as introductions
and matters of discussion.
Finally, it is a fairly unenforceable rule. I doubt any ISP
is going to give someone any grief because they
occasionally violate the charter of some usenet
group. Quite often people on usenet threaten that
they will report me to my ISP. I always invite them to
do so. In all the years I have been on the Internet,
my ISP has never brought any of these complaints
to my attention. Then these blowhards rail at AOL
and other ISPs for not paying attention them. I find
it so sad that no one takes these usenet commandos
seriously.
I figure quite a few people who post to usenet don't have
a life, and have nothing better to do than with their time
than try to make the lives of others as miserable as their
own. I am afraid, if I didn't give them an excuse to
complain to my ISP, I would be depriving them of their
raison d'être.
Thanks for tipping me off to alt.personals.bondage, but
I think placing a personal in a newsgroup dedicated to
just personals is not as effective as posting a personal to
a newsgroup where there are personals and discussions.
I think personals in such newsgroups get more exposure,
especially when every member of the newsgroup makes
some comment on it.
Believe me when I tell you, my sleep at night will not be
effected by my knowing that I have violated the charter
of some usenet newsgroup. The last thing that concerns
me is posting inappropriate posts. In fact, I revel in it.
I can't stand anal retentive, Felix Ungers, who feel it
is there mission in life to make sure no one walks on
the grass. I admit I do take a little sadistic delight in
yanking their chain, and exposing their rigidity. Now
be my guest and take this paragraph, copy it, and
send it to ab...@aol.com. Make yourself feel good.
Usenet posters so love masturbatory activities like this.
Anyway, as you suggest, most newsgroups participants
are not people I would have an interest in anyway.
Thanks for your kind email. There is far too much
senseless bickering on usenet, and not nearly enough
kindness.
The irony is that the more my adversaries and antagonists
post complaining about my original post, the more publicity
my original post gets. A post that has ten followups attracts
more attention and interest than a post that is ignored.
So, I am indebted to my detractors for the help they have
given me. Like a politician, I don't care whether people
say good things about me or bad, as long as they spell
my name right, and put their posts as follow-ups to mine.
On anther subject, I find it funny that Spyral Fox who claims
it is a faux pas to claim one is a member of Mensa, puts this
claim about herself in her own AOL profile. It is amazing how
the black pot in the glass house is always the first to call other's
black and the first to throw stones. Of course, I'm sure she
can explain how her claiming she is a member of Mensa is
different than my claiming I am a member of Mensa.
Some here have mentioned that anyone can claim to be
a member of Mensa. That is certainly true. But I would
think that someone interested in my post would be a lot
more concerned with verifying other claims I made.
I just wish verifying my membership in Mensa (and other
high IQ organizations with stricter requirements) would be
as easy as verifying the other claims I made like my high
moral integrity.
Some people get bent out of shape for the silliest of reasons.
Some people are absolutely apoplectic and blue in the face
over my choosing "alt.torture" for a screen name. How dare I?
They wonder about my sinister motivation. The fact is, I tried to
create more than 100 other screen names before I selected
"alt.torture," but AOL claimed that the other names I tried to
select had already been taken. With 30 million subscribers
it is pretty hard using AOL to come up with a unique, original
screen name that others will easily remember. So "alt toture"
was more a selection by default then something I spent a lot
of time on choosing for myself. All I have to say to those who
don't like my screen name is, "Tough titties!" If these people
had a life, they'd have more important things to worry about
then someone else's choice for a screen name.
Best regards,
alt torture
Alt torture
"Magician and whisper" Magi...@spamBgon.darktower.ws wrote,
> Appropriate or not, wanted or not, even true or not, it
> certainly got him a lot of attention, didn't it? I'd speculate
> that this may have been the underlying motive.
You think so? Now, who would be silly enough to
want to bring any attention to a personal?
Best regards,
alt torture
TyMeDwn1st
>Someone wrote in an email sent to me.
>> Pretty good personal. It'll upset some people but they
>> wouldn't be interested in your services anyway.
>
>Hi and thanks,
>
> It is pretty difficult for me to post a message on usenet
>that is not going to upset a lot of people. It sounds pretty
>foolish to me not to allow personals at all in a newsgroup
>like this, especially since personals often triple as introductions
>and matters of discussion.
You're trolling here, just as you do on alt.torture. You're about to learn
there's a major difference between that group and this one.
>Finally, it is a fairly unenforceable rule. I doubt any ISP
>is going to give someone any grief because they
>occasionally violate the charter of some usenet
>group. Quite often people on usenet threaten that
>they will report me to my ISP. I always invite them to
>do so. In all the years I have been on the Internet,
>my ISP has never brought any of these complaints
>to my attention. Then these blowhards rail at AOL
>and other ISPs for not paying attention them. I find
>it so sad that no one takes these usenet commandos
>seriously.
In some circles this is called "whistling past the graveyard."
>I figure quite a few people who post to usenet don't have
>a life, and have nothing better to do than with their time
>than try to make the lives of others as miserable as their
>own. I am afraid, if I didn't give them an excuse to
>complain to my ISP, I would be depriving them of their
>raison d'être.
>
>Thanks for tipping me off to alt.personals.bondage, but
>I think placing a personal in a newsgroup dedicated to
>just personals is not as effective as posting a personal to
>a newsgroup where there are personals and discussions.
This is not that.
>I think personals in such newsgroups get more exposure,
>especially when every member of the newsgroup makes
>some comment on it.
>
>Believe me when I tell you, my sleep at night will not be
>effected by my knowing that I have violated the charter
>of some usenet newsgroup. The last thing that concerns
>me is posting inappropriate posts. In fact, I revel in it.
>I can't stand anal retentive, Felix Ungers, who feel it
>is there mission in life to make sure no one walks on
>the grass. I admit I do take a little sadistic delight in
>yanking their chain, and exposing their rigidity. Now
>be my guest and take this paragraph, copy it, and
>send it to ab...@aol.com. Make yourself feel good.
>Usenet posters so love masturbatory activities like this.
FOAD, troll-boy.
The correct address for complaints is TOSU...@aol.com
Zayphod
(Alt torture) writes:
>PSSS I am super, super careful to make sure there
> are no misunderstandings. I don't do anything
> with anyone unless I know them better than they
> know themselves, which is often the case.
You're also very careful not to read the ssbb charter that
states very clearly "no personal ads".
Zayphod at aol dot com
Zayphod at gate dot net
http://members.aol.com/zayphod/ads/ads.html
"I say to you net-abusers, KNOCK OFF ALL THAT SPAM"
--- Something "The Tick" would say, if he were on-line
DOMINION 2001 is coming! www.dominionevents.com
Sockermom9
>> Actually, according to the tables published by Underwriter's
>> Laboratory, it takes a microamp (one millionth of an amp)
>> to cause ventricular fibrillation. One tenth of an amp is in
>> the 50-to-150-milliamp range reported to cause respiratory
>> arrest. There certainly is a lot to know.
>
>I have only seen this claim regarding UL in bdsm sources.
>I am not convinced it is accurate.
Well, it is close to the information given to ham radio operators, who often
make their own equipment and need good, reliable safety information.
Lynn
Alt torture
> :::::::::::snip of 300 lines of references::::::::::::
> Not only a troll but an anal one at that!
> ROFL, he IS named after a newsgroup! What will
> he name his kids? Google and Yahoo?
How did you guess? Doesn't everyboby name their
kids, names similar to the screen names they use
to post anonymously to kinky usenet groups? What
am I missing here?
Xs, Ys, Ps, Qs, and Rs inserted to protect the innocent
===========================================
Subj: Re: Rape-torture victim sought in Miami
Date: 8/14/2001 12:28:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: xxx...@yyyyyy.com (ppp qqq)
To: altto...@aol.com
I rarely reply to anyone, and for quite a while I have stayed out of
[this] newsgroup for I am tired of flames, and getting involved with
these folks. <smile> I prefer real life to spending hours reading
and replying to folks. However, I must congratulate you for good
research and putting the kabosh on those who claim that nipple
and other electric torture (reasonably done) can be fatal. Thanks
for all of us.
Sincerely yours,
ppp qqq
http://www.rrrrrrr.org [Some bdsm website]
Sockermom9
>It sounds pretty
>foolish to me not to allow personals at all in a newsgroup
>like this, especially since personals often triple as introductions
>and matters of discussion.
Visit alt.sex.bondage, for a view of how allowing personals can erode a
newsgroup.
>Finally, it is a fairly unenforceable rule. I doubt any ISP
>is going to give someone any grief because they
>occasionally violate the charter of some usenet
>group.
Heh. I rarely bother netcopping here. For you, I could make an exception.
>I figure quite a few people who post to usenet don't have
>a life, and have nothing better to do than with their time
>than try to make the lives of others as miserable as their
>own.
I could point out that it's possible to view the one who posted a personal ad
to an unfiltered quarter of a million people to be the more hard-up. But I
wouldn't sink that low.
>Thanks for tipping me off to alt.personals.bondage, but
>I think placing a personal in a newsgroup dedicated to
>just personals is not as effective as posting a personal to
>a newsgroup where there are personals and discussions.
This is hysterical. "I don't want to go hang out with people looking for
partners in order to find a partner. After all, people who post personal ads
over there are pathetic losers who can't find a partner any other way. I, on
the other hand, am...oh, never mind."
Lynn
Volcano
And I received the same information as an apprentice electrician.
--
,~~~~ Board Member: Darkest Desires Central Texas
/ \ Corps Diplomatique SSB; San Antonio, TX
/ \ Volcano Founder: Pink Pistols Central Texas
www.PinkPistolsCenTex.org
"Armed gays don't get bashed." www.pinkpistols.org
Alt torture
> Well, it is close to the information given to ham radio
> operators, who often make their own equipment and
> need good, reliable safety information. Lynn
Bullshit! I was ham radio operator when I was 12
years old and it required a 13 wpm Morse code test.
I had a General Class radiotelephone license. I've
been building all my equipment since that time.
Alt torture
> You're also very careful not to read the ssbb
> charter that states very clearly "no personal ads".
How remiss can someone possibly be. You charter
***very clearly*** states "no personal ads." I have
committed an atrocious crime, I have violated your
charter.
Oh my God, I violated your precious charter! How
shall I ever do penitence? Shall I flog myself naked
twenty times? How could anyone possibly dare
violate the charter of soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm?
Oh, the lack of humanity! Oh, the drapravity! Oh,
the absolute horror!
Hear our screams, oh Lord, hear our screams!
Please, sweet Jesus, no! Do not allow this transgression
to go unpunished! How can a just and compassionate
God allow such conduct?
I can feel my gorge rising and falling for the hundredth
time! The shattered usenet group lays before me like so
many twisted, mangled, blood-drenched corpes on a
battlefield. I mean what kind of a depraved, disgusting
person would do such a thing, oh Lord? Hath this pathetic
excuse for a human being no shame?
It is not enough that he is a sadistic rapist and a
pedophile, he violates our usenet charter! What is
this world coming to when innocent eyes such as
ours are forced to view such debased depravity.
For the rest of my years, oh Lord, I shall never
recover from this trauma. I will forever be in
psychotherapy because of his unmentionable crime
against humanity. What horrible conduct could
possibly be worse than a ***very clear*** violation
of one of our charter's rules?
Dear members of soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
send me your psychotherapy bills. I promise
to pay each and every one of you the full extent
of your loss.
Best regards,
alt torture
Spyral Fox
<dag...@duluth.com> writes:
>I offer my sincere apology to you and other Mensa members. It was not
>my intention to slam the group or any of its members other than the
>original poster.
Thank you for the gracious apology. I can't speak for anyone
else, but I appreciate and accept it.
Psyfuru
>Bullshit! I was ham radio operator when I was 12
>years old and it required a 13 wpm Morse code test.
>I had a General Class radiotelephone license. I've
>been building all my equipment since that time.
? We could have told each other that.
(With respects to true ham operators, however, such as your immediate
correspondent.)
And, no wonder all yer patients die on the way to the grocery store. A kinky
heart surgeon who communicates by Morse code, indeed!
f
Alt torture
socke...@aol.com (Sockermom9) wrote:
> Visit alt.sex.bondage, for a view of how allowing
> personals can erode a newsgroup.
You're delusional. Please, allowing personals is not
what caused the erosion of alt.sex.bondage. But
again, I suppose this is a free country and you have
the right to choose to believe what you want to believe,
no matter how absurd and unfounded. I expect at
this point Spyral Pox will chime in with her account of
how and why she started this group.
> Heh. I rarely bother netcopping here. For
> you, I could make an exception.
Make my day!
> I could point out that it's possible to view the
> one who posted a personal ad to an unfiltered
> quarter of a million people to be the more hard-up.
You could and you did. This is a free country
and you can believe anything you like.
> "I don't want to go hang out with people looking for
> partners in order to find a partner. After all, people
> who post personal ads over there are pathetic losers
> who can't find a partner any other way. I, on the other
> hand, am...oh, never mind."
This is your position, not mine. Don't blame me, if
you didn't understand what I said.
With love and licks,
alt torture
joe
altto...@aol.com says...
>
> How remiss can someone possibly be. You charter
> ***very clearly*** states "no personal ads." I have
> committed an atrocious crime, I have violated your
> charter.
sub·tle [sútt'l ] adjective
1. slight: slight and not obvious
2. pleasantly understated: pleasantly delicate and understated
3. able to make refined judgments: intelligent, experienced, or
sensitive enough to make refined judgments and distinctions
4. ingenious: cleverly indirect and ingenious
--
"Everybody plays the fool. Sometimes."
-- American Folk Saying
Philip the Foole
> shall I ever do penitence? Shall I flog myself naked
> twenty times? How could anyone possibly dare
> violate the charter of soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm?
> Oh, the lack of humanity! Oh, the drapravity! Oh,
> the absolute horror!
I shall use my Nostradamus-like powers to predict that your partner will
hear this *same* response from you after you violate her "no unprotected
anal sex" hard limit.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
If one person calls you an ass, laugh it off. If a dozen people who
seem to be reasonably sound thinkers on most other topics call you an
ass, get fitted for a saddle.
Dark Dezire
>Oh my God,
<snip of more ranting>
Kay guys, I think that's enough. This guy's butter slipped off his
noodles quite a while ago. I think we should ignore him... I
certainly am.
NrrdGrrl
"Alt torture" <altto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010814224529...@mb-mg.aol.com...
> zay...@aol.com.com.com (Zayphod) wrote:
> > You're also very careful not to read the ssbb
> > charter that states very clearly "no personal ads".
>
> How remiss can someone possibly be. You charter
> ***very clearly*** states "no personal ads." I have
> committed an atrocious crime, I have violated your
> charter.
So, if this guy can't be trusted to obey a charter, who the hell's going to
trust him to honor a safeword?
NG
Philip the Foole
torsioned testicle you were complaining about last February turn out?
Mongol
Well alt,
If you're so sure of yourself, a simple experiment should demonstrate the
fallacy of Lynn's statements. Be a good boy and grab a corded telephone's
base unit (about 200 mA), get into your bathtub, fill the tub with water,
sit down and plunk the base unit in. Feel free to write to us of the
results.
Regards,
-Mongol
Lead, follow, or accept your fate.
>
Mongol
NrrdGrrl <nrrd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:R_le7.10495$Ki1.8...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> So, if this guy can't be trusted to obey a charter, who the hell's going
to
> trust him to honor a safeword?
>
> NG
>
>
If someone would trust him to adhere to a safeword, then we will witness
Darwinism in action!
*chortles*
-Mongol
Sing, ...sing to me your screams.
Alt torture
> So, if this guy can't be trusted to obey a
> charter, who the hell's going to trust him
> to honor a safeword?
Do you want a list? Oh, never mind. Anyway,
I already wrote that I don't honor safe words.
I guess I kinda emphasized that point right at
the beginning of my first post, so I am wondering
how you could have missed it.
> So, if this guy can't be trusted to obey a
> charter, who the hell's going to trust him
> to honor a safeword?
Right, if someone can't be trusted to obey
a usenet charter, they can't be trusted
about anything, right? The girl who found herself
cutup in five barrels probably employed
your same logic. "I can't believe someone
who would honor a usenet charter could
do something so horrible."
I mean anyone who can't be trusted not to
walk on the grass, can't be trusted with people's
fortunes right?
It is just my opinion you ought to get know
people a little better before you make broad
generalizations about them, or you extrapolate
from such ludicrous circumstances.
John Warren
news:n4djnt8hnb0ac51ol...@4ax.com...
> On 14 Aug 2001 23:14:12 GMT, altto...@aol.com (Alt torture) wrote:
>
> >Hello Professor Warren,
>
> >I have only seen this claim regarding UL in bdsm sources.
> >I am not convinced it is accurate. But even if you believe
> >these sources, they all claim that the one microamp current
> >they are referring to is current going through the middle
> >muscular layer of the heart wall. This is not practical information.
> >It is not common even for edge players in the bdsm community to
> >open the chest of their victims and apply electrodes directly
> >to the heart. At least, I presume this is not a common practice,
> >one never knows. ;-)
>
>
> Not only a troll but an anal one at that!
>
What is even more amusing is that he's replying in this newsgroup to a
statement made in another newsgroup. I had the "gentleman" killfiled after
reading his first post in alt.torture. I had no idea he had appeared here
until the replies started appearing so there was no way I could have pointed
out his unsafe practices.
--
Diversified Services (Toys, Books and Videos for the Scene since 1992)
www.diversified--services.com & www.sensualexplorations.com
New items added 8/13 Whitehead and Jennings Gags
John Warren
news:R_le7.10495$Ki1.8...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
If I recall the personal over in alt.torture (the newsgroup that is) that
originally got this "gentleman" into my killfile. He doesn't allow
safewords. In his world, he is all knowing.
Bradley G. Ward
exam.
> I qualified for Mensa. <snip>
> there are a lot of people who are not too bright
> Best regards,
> alt.torture
>
> PS. Obviously, this post is not directed at most participants
> here who simply enjoy D/s and bdsm for reasons
> that have nothing to do with past trauma, or who
> have no interest in living-out rape fantasies and such.
> Before you criticize me, I ask you first to consider
> whether you are a black pot living in a glass house.
>
> PSS. If you are a female, and you want to learn how
> you can prevent yourself from becoming more
> of a victim than you are willing to become in
> dealing with strangers you meet on the Internet,
> I can give you a few tips.
>
> PSSS I am super, super careful to make sure there
> are no misunderstandings. I don't do anything
Crystal
<men...@bdsbbs.com> wrote:
> If I recall the personal over in alt.torture (the newsgroup that is) that
> originally got this "gentleman" into my killfile. He doesn't allow
> safewords. In his world, he is all knowing.
At one of the workshops I went to at TES this weekend, the well-respected,
very experienced scene person running it stated that she is "old school"
and does not play with safewords. Without trying to start a debate about
whether that sort of play is valid, responsible or safe, because I'm sure
that's been done to death here, I'm just curious how people feel when they
hear a scene veteran say that vs. Joe Schmo on the internet. Does it make
a difference? Her rationale was that, in the intense forms of play that
she prefers, she feels that a bottom is too likely to call an end to a
scene before it's really necessary and regret it later, and that she can
responsibly tell when someone has had enough by carefully monitoring their
reactions. I wasn't sure whether she meant that to apply to all partners
she plays with or only to her regular partners whose boundaries and
reactions are well known to her. My own opinion is split on the issue... I
mean, when playing really heavy games it seems like it could be difficult
to distinguish between the screaming and crying that come with "I'm scared
to death but loving it" and "I'm scared to death and I'm going to need
therapy for five years if you don't stop now".... but on the other hand, I
have one occasional partner with whom I've unintentionally slid into a
no-safeword sort of play: in the beginning I don't assign safewords to my
partners, usually, because I don't feel that I know them well enough to do
anything where no does not equal no (so I take whatever they say at face
value). Maybe that's a mistake on my part. When the play starts to get
more intense, I give them a safeword... only this one slipped into
resistance mode almost instantly, without my expecting it, and later
informed me that she didn't want a safeword, and actually so far I haven't
had any trouble at all reading her state of mind.
So... I dunno. I'm really not trying to start a big debate over safewords
and maybe I shouldn't have asked. Feel free to hurl deja/google at me, I
probably deserve it.
Crystal
--
Uppity women unite!
Metal Fem
Crystal wrote:
> I'm just curious how people feel when they
> hear a scene veteran say that vs. Joe Schmo on the internet.
There are some scene veterans that have particular philosophies on
safety that drive me up the nearest wall and down again.
I generally keep quiet in those situations because to do otherwise
involves the need to put in a lot of analysis and posting composition
energy that I just don't have the time and headspace for while I'm
running about holding down a full time job, two relationships and a
life.
It's sufficient to say that my main irrit is this notion that sub women
have to band together with "good" dominant men to defeat the evil
phenomenon of "bad" dominant men. Bollocks, and come the Christmas
holidays I may just have time to explain why.
As for Joe Schmo, if I see consistently intelligent, generally sensible
posts from Joe over a period of time then I'll read him and have a good
think about what he has to say.
If OTOH Joe is an obvious nutcase with ill-conceived rape fantasy issues
I'll just delete him.
Cheers
Mf
SilverOz
Crystal <snea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <9ld365$8nka8$2...@ID-63352.news.dfncis.de>, "John Warren"
><men...@bdsbbs.com> wrote:
>
>> If I recall the personal over in alt.torture (the newsgroup that is) that
>> originally got this "gentleman" into my killfile. He doesn't allow
>> safewords. In his world, he is all knowing.
>
>At one of the workshops I went to at TES this weekend, the well-respected,
>very experienced scene person running it stated that she is "old school"
>and does not play with safewords. Without trying to start a debate about
>whether that sort of play is valid, responsible or safe, because I'm sure
>that's been done to death here, I'm just curious how people feel when they
>hear a scene veteran say that vs. Joe Schmo on the internet. Does it make
>a difference? Her rationale was that, in the intense forms of play that
I think knowing someone's *reasons* is important.
As is knowing the person, and their general level of Clue.
Someone who comes across as a wannabe or an arrogant arsehole compared
to someone who is calm and collected and is willing to discuss in a
levelheaded way is less likely to trip my danger signal than someone
who is on about Twue Dominates.
SilverOz
SilverOz
Metal Fem <meta...@webone.com.au> wrote:
>
>It's sufficient to say that my main irrit is this notion that sub women
>have to band together with "good" dominant men to defeat the evil
>phenomenon of "bad" dominant men. Bollocks, and come the Christmas
>holidays I may just have time to explain why.
>
heheh... I can give you a list of mailing lists to stay away from
then!
Bollocks indeed.
But then I've never been a member of the "submissive sisterhood" or
had any desire to be.
I can't come at the idea that just cos I'm sub and someone else is sub
that we somehow have a mystical bond.
SilverOz
- preferring leather bonds...
John Warren
news:sneakerz_-ya024080...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> So... I dunno. I'm really not trying to start a big debate over safewords
> and maybe I shouldn't have asked. Feel free to hurl deja/google at me, I
> probably deserve it.
I don't "debate" it. I won't play without one. Other people do and I don't
tell them they are wrong, but I've found that there is a distinct
correlation between those who _announce_ they, as tops, don't need a
safeword and those whose behavior leads me to believe are jerks, while not
1.0, is in the high positives.
Most of the people who have told me that don't like safewords are
submissives. IMO, they are shifting an unacceptable, to me, amount of the
risk and potential blame to the dominants. If a couple decides to play
without a safeword, it is their call and I'm not going to criticise them,
but to me, a safeword is like a seatbelt; it cannot prevent accidents and
isn't a perfect safety device, but like a seatbelt, it reduces that chance
that a mishap can grow to a disaster.
To continue the parallel, when I'm riding in someone else's car, I don't
tell them to fasten their seatbelt, but I fasten my own and if they want to
ride in mine, they _will_ put on the seatbelt.
For another point of view, consider Kevin Erwin. If he and his girlfriend
had not been playing with a safeword, he would probably be in jail for
aggrevated rape now.
Spyral Fox
<bar...@nor.com.au> writes:
>Obviously how to postscript wasn't on the MENSA (note the capitals)
>entry exam.
I note the capitals. I wonder why you are making a note of
them or using them. They are not part of the name of American
Mensa, Ltd. nor of any International Mensa organization.
Mensa is not an acronym. It is from the latin from "table"
because the original founders had a vision of bright folks
sitting around a table discussing weighty issues. It still fits,
although these days unless you are at one of the specific
events meant for brainstorming the table is most likely loaded
with junk food and we're talking about cartoons and making
puns. (I've been a member in good standing for over 25 years,
held both appointed and elected offices on the boards of several
USAian local groups, and attended enough Regional Gatherings
and Annual (national) Gatherings to know whereof I speak.)
As a further note, Mensa is about the *lowest* tier of the many
high-IQ societies, with eligibility for more than 1 in 50 people
(it's the "upper 2% on standardized IQ tests, but the lowest
end of the curve tend to die from multiple other problems or
are taken off life support; very few of the lowest 2% are visible
at all in society). Of course, many Mensans are eligible for such
groups, but their membership is necessarily smaller, and
anyone in them is also Mensa-eligible, so the "joiners" tend
to be people you already know from Mensa activities.
If this particular clown was really as smart as he seems to think,
he'd not have bothered with claimining eligibility for Mensa, but
rather said he was eligible for something. So far, I've noticed
(from the bits of his posts that others are quoting -- I killfiled
him) a lot of arrogance, but not a lot of intelligence.
Spyral Fox
snea...@hotmail.com (Crystal) writes:
>At one of the workshops I went to at TES this weekend, the well-respected,
>very experienced scene person running it stated that she is "old school"
>and does not play with safewords. Without trying to start a debate about
>whether that sort of play is valid, responsible or safe, because I'm sure
>that's been done to death here, I'm just curious how people feel when they
>hear a scene veteran say that vs. Joe Schmo on the internet.
For me, it's only one factor. I don't use codewords, but I
understand why some people prefer to use them as safewords --
whether it's "red" or "avocado;" it lets the bottom yell
and moan and say "stop, stop, stop" without actually stopping
anything. I prefer to play within pre-determined limits,
and to be able to halt things by announcing "I have a cramp
in my left calf" or whatever. Lots of people don't use safewords
for lots of reasons. Some play within limits, or know their
partners so well that they have built up a bank of trust. However,
if someone wants to do something and also doesn't allow
for safewords or some similar scene-ending option with
strangers, I tend to get a little suspicious. If they are talking
about things that are low-risk, that's one thing... but if they are
talking about something extreme, my eyebrows raise a bit
higher. If further discussion indicates that they are an idiot
who doesn't actually understand risks I'm likely to speak out
and point out some of the potential risks.
Some people may visualize me wearing a helmet and orange vest,
and wearing a "safety monitor" sash, but it's worth the flack
to know that I'm not a part of the problem, silently accepting
it when someone is trying to do something dangerous without
any apparent knowledge of this fact.
Now, some people have repuations that mean I do cut them
quite a bit more slack than others. If Charles Haines says
he wants to do an extreme, no-safeword scene, I'm much
more comfortable with it than is some total unknown says the
same... but that's because Charles has a long enough history
as a poster (although it's now rare to see him here) that I,
as a reader, have built up some trust in the idea that he knows
a lot about the potential risks, and that his vict--- errr.... partner
in the scene would be fully informed of them before the
scene began.
Zayphod
"NrrdGrrl" <nrrd...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>So, if this guy can't be trusted to obey a charter, who the hell's going to
>trust him to honor a safeword?
He's already indicated there would be no such thing under
his "dominion". Apparently not a safe player to begin with.
Zayphod at aol dot com
Zayphod at gate dot net
http://members.aol.com/zayphod/ads/ads.html
"I say to you net-abusers, KNOCK OFF ALL THAT SPAM"
--- Something "The Tick" would say, if he were on-line
DOMINION 2001 is coming! www.dominionevents.com
Zayphod
(Alt torture) writes:
>NrrdGrrl" nrrd...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>> So, if this guy can't be trusted to obey a
>> charter, who the hell's going to trust him
>> to honor a safeword?
>
>Do you want a list? Oh, never mind. Anyway,
>I already wrote that I don't honor safe words.
>I guess I kinda emphasized that point right at
>the beginning of my first post, so I am wondering
>how you could have missed it.
Exactly. No sane person, male or female, would want
to submit to this type of person.
Zayphod
(Alt torture) writes:
>zay...@aol.com.com.com (Zayphod) wrote:
>> You're also very careful not to read the ssbb
>> charter that states very clearly "no personal ads".
>
>How remiss can someone possibly be. You charter
>***very clearly*** states "no personal ads." I have
>committed an atrocious crime, I have violated your
>charter.
>
>Oh my God, I violated your precious charter! How
>shall I ever do penitence? Shall I flog myself naked
>twenty times?
No, you would enjoy that too much.
>How could anyone possibly dare
>violate the charter of soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm?
>Oh, the lack of humanity! Oh, the drapravity! Oh,
>the absolute horror!
Ah, I think I hear troll sign..............
>Hear our screams, oh Lord, hear our screams!
>Please, sweet Jesus, no! Do not allow this transgression
>to go unpunished! How can a just and compassionate
>God allow such conduct?
I guess we just forward the trolling conduct to ab...@aol.net
and TOSusenet, huh?
>I can feel my gorge rising and falling for the hundredth
>time! The shattered usenet group lays before me like so
>many twisted, mangled, blood-drenched corpes on a
>battlefield. I mean what kind of a depraved, disgusting
>person would do such a thing, oh Lord? Hath this pathetic
>excuse for a human being no shame?
Yes, I believe it's troll-sign.............
>It is not enough that he is a sadistic rapist and a
>pedophile, he violates our usenet charter! What is
>this world coming to when innocent eyes such as
>ours are forced to view such debased depravity.
>For the rest of my years, oh Lord, I shall never
>recover from this trauma. I will forever be in
>psychotherapy because of his unmentionable crime
>against humanity. What horrible conduct could
>possibly be worse than a ***very clear*** violation
>of one of our charter's rules?
The meter is up to 9.5..................
>Dear members of soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
>send me your psychotherapy bills. I promise
>to pay each and every one of you the full extent
>of your loss.
Yes, I believe we have troll-sign.
Please don't feed the troll.
DonSideB
>When the play starts to get
>more intense, I give them a safeword... only this one slipped into
>resistance mode almost instantly, without my expecting it, and later
>informed me that she didn't want a safeword, and actually so far I haven't
>had any trouble at all reading her state of mind.
This is one of those things where we have to accept that there is no one true
way.
In my own relationship, I have given up my safeword, or, more accurately,
Mistress and I have agreed that safewords are "information only." If I use my
safeword, she is under no obligation to abide by it.
But, that is after years of building trust and communication between us, and it
is at my suggestion, not hers. My safewords were binding in the beginning, but
after time, I found that having an out spoiled the experience for me and I
asked Mistress to lift that burden from my shoulders.
She only occasionally goes beyond what I would be able to handle without
safewording and even then I am glad that I did not have the option of
interupting the scene. Mistress has found the absolute freedom to do as she
pleases with me to be a turn on she did not expect.
It works for us, but it might never be the right thing for someone else.
But, I would never start a relationship on that basis, and were I approached by
a Dom/me who insisted on No Safewords from the beginning, I would politlely
decline and keep a safe distance from him or her in the future.
don
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. - Edward R Murrow
SSBB Diplomatic Corps: Tidewater Virginia
Alt torture
> Exactly. No sane person, male or female,
> would want to submit to this type of person.
It is funny how people who most others do not
consider sane, feel they are the ultimate arbiters
of sanity. I at least admit to not being perfectly
sane, and having sick desires. I choose not
to play with people who think they are sane. These
are the people who delude themselves, and who are
really crazy. Humans have infinite capacity to
rationalize their desires.
In twenty plus years of play, I have never had a partner
complain I went too far. The only complaints I have
ever had is that I am not dominant enough or that
I won't do a lot of stuff you guys do while claiming
to be perfectly sane. For some strange reason a
lot of females find blood erotic and like needle play,
such as having needles stuck in their breasts and
smearing the blood on their bodies.
When I have partners like this I refuse to indulge
their sickness. For some reason a lot of you find
it sane to play with scat and urine. Again, when
I have partners like this I refuse to indulge their
sickness. There are those of you who allow your
partners to suture your bodies, and you call it sane.
There are those of you who allow your partners
to leave permanent marks on your bodies, or
permanently "modify" your bodies. You seem to
think that just because behavior is consensual,
that makes it sane. Most of you don't have the
foggiest idea what sanity is. I don't even come
close to engaging in the kind of sick perversions,
most of you engage in, at least if what you say
about yourselves in this newsgroup is true. I
always find it funny when a midget climbs on a
high horse then proceeds to call others shorty.
A few times in my life I went s&m clubs. What I
saw was really sick. Participants looked like
zombies or like they were going through some
unpleasant religious ritual or some distasteful
remedy for a sickness. Few people at the clubs
spoke to each other. Most of what happened
transpired in an errie silence. There was no
emotion, no drama, no climax, and no catharsis.
I never thought bdsm could be boring, but after a
short time in these clubs I found myself either being
grossed-out or bored to tears. I suppose this was
the real torture, and believe me when I say it was
non-consensual. If I hadn't been able to escape from
these clubs when I did, I would have died of boredom.
It is absolutely unbelievable to me that creeps and
perverts like you can be so judgmental and intolerant
of others, who compared to you are bastions of sanity.
You remind me of the Puritans who escaped to the
new world because of religious persecution in England
and then proceeded to perseucte all those who were
not like themselves. You are a bunch of miserable
hypocrites who walk around with rods stuck up your
assholes. Your goal in life is to make others as
miserable as you are. Half of you are too dense
to understand irony, the other half too humor impaired.
I posted my intro for the occasional visitor. I know
that the people who inhabit newsgroups are too
far gone. They hang-out in newsgroups and the like
because nobody in real life will have anything to do
with them, then presume everyone else they encounter
online is equally lost in space.
My first post was honest and true, but I from your
perspective I understand perfectly why you consider
me to be a troll, because I am not like you. Thank God.
And you consider anyone who posts to "your"
newsgroup who is not like you to be a troll. Of course,
I don't care what losers like you think.
With love and appreciation,
alt torture
Katharine H.
<snip>
> My own opinion is split on the issue... I
> mean, when playing really heavy games it seems like it could be difficult
> to distinguish between the screaming and crying that come with "I'm scared
> to death but loving it" and "I'm scared to death and I'm going to need
> therapy for five years if you don't stop now".... but on the other hand, I
> have one occasional partner with whom I've unintentionally slid into a
> no-safeword sort of play: in the beginning I don't assign safewords to my
> partners, usually, because I don't feel that I know them well enough to do
> anything where no does not equal no (so I take whatever they say at face
> value). Maybe that's a mistake on my part. When the play starts to get
> more intense, I give them a safeword... only this one slipped into
> resistance mode almost instantly, without my expecting it, and later
> informed me that she didn't want a safeword, and actually so far I haven't
> had any trouble at all reading her state of mind.
This is one of those "YMMV" things. Some people play exclusively
with, some exclusively without, and a whole bunch somewhere in
between.
I think there are two understandings of the word "safeword" in these
waters, and people don't always been the same thing.
One type of safeword is a CODE word which means something else (i.e.,
"red" for stop). The idea is that you can say no, fight, struggle and
resist but the top doesn't have to second-guess what is happening
under the drama.
Another understanding of safeword is the *right* (of the bottom) to
stop a scene at any time by either saying no, using a code word, or
some other form of communication.
For myself, I generally don't play with the first type of safewords
(though I'm willing if my partner prefers or if it's appropriate to
the scene we're doing.) The second type of safeword is embedded in
any my current play relationships. (At times, however, people I play
with will request giving me their safeword, or their right to withdraw
from the scene.)
In terms of deciding whether to use one and how to use them, here are
some questions that I've found helpful:
--Will bottom be saying "no" or "stop" or "i can't" during the scene
(but still want the scene to continue)?
--How much responsibility is the top willing to assume for the safety
and well-being of the bottom?
--How much responsibility is the bottom willing to assume for hir own
safety and well-being?
--When the bottom is "under", is sie capable of knowing when sie is
possibly in harm's way and communicating that?
--Will there be any bondage or other activities that limit the
bottom's ability to communicate?
--How well do you know each other?
--How far will you be pushing boundaries (especially around consent?)
Will there be any kind of play that involves forcing, resistance, or
overpowering?
--Is the bottom willing to use hir safeword?
One thing you mentioned was giving someone a safeword when things
intensified. Generally, I'd recommend against this -- I don't think
it's a good idea to "change the rules" mid-scene. Instead, just
checking in seems to work well with most people.
Best,
Katharine
Alt torture
"John Warren" men...@bdsbbs.com wrote:
> If I recall the personal over in alt.torture (the newsgroup
> that is) that originally got this "gentleman" into my killfile.
> He doesn't allow safewords. In his world, he is all knowing.
I am all knowing in my world like you sodomize little boys
in yours. I never claimed to be all knowing, but apparently
I knew that a tenth of milliamp is the generally accepted
value for what causes ventricular fibrillation, and you didn't.
You thought it was a millionth of an amp. Then again this
may be the value that has importance to you, because as
an edge player you attach electrodes directly to the heart
of your subs, right? I do not engage in practices anywhere
near as extreme as you. I don't consider a lot of what you
do to be sane. As far as I'm concerned you are in no position
to make the rules. I don't hold the club world in very
high regard. But I will say this, in twenty plus years of
practicing bdsm, I have never had a partner claim I went
too far, and caution me to go easier with them the next
time around. Nor have I have had a partner get upset with
me, and not contact me again. I remain friends with *ALL*
my past partners. All my past partners believe we have
a special bond. I also believe this. If I ever hear any
complaint it is that I stop things too early, but I would rather
be safe than sorry. I work very slowly and methodically. I
ratchet up pain levels one millimeter at a time. I am very
careful to monitor my victims reactions. I can tell pretend
squirming from squirming that says I can't take it anymore.
I can see from a person's eyes whether they are tolerating
the pain, or whether it is taking them beyond their limit. I
can tell fake panic from real panic. And if I make any
mistakes, it is to err on the side of caution. I learn very
quickly my victims limits. And all my sessions have
proscribed limits, down to the exact number of lashes,
to exactly how long the sessions will last, and to every torture
that my victim will submit to. All this is put in writing, signed
AND NOTARIZED. I have a friend who is a notary public.
I do nothing that I am not "commanded" to do in a legal
document. Before I play with a victim, they must not
just authorize me to do such and such, they must in
writing "command me" to do such and such. And in
every contract that we sign, there is a monetary penalty
I become obligated to pay, if I fail to carry out all that
I have been commanded to do. When it comes to
legal issues I don't play. I am very, very careful
to make sure I have no problems with the law. In addition
I obtain permission to videotape all sessions, so no one
can claim I did something that was not agreed upon.
But the fact is my victims are more than happy with
their sessions. I am a sadist who enjoys pleasing. And
I am not content, unless my victim is orgasmically spent.
I am considerate, compassionate, calming and
comforting, when I need to be. Not every rapist is
heartless.
Everything I do is very slow and gradual. Every lash
I inflict is counted out loud. As a switch, I have a pretty
good idea what victims can tolerate and what they crave.
I treat my victims in a way, and do things for them that
most Doms would never do. I don't claim to be a Dom.
I may feed my bound victim ice cream. I may attend
to her needs in a way most Doms would not consider
consistent with their role.
One of my favorite things to do is going down on a bound
victim and torturing her into enduring more orgasms this
way than she has ever experienced in any twelve hour
period in her life.
When she is tired and wants to stop, I will tighten her
nipple clamps and or breast clamps until she is willing
try again.
If she tries to fake an orgasm, I will know, because she
won't produce anything for me to drink. There may be times
through the ordeal where she honestly wants me stop, but I
remind her, it is my duty to fulfill my contractual obligation.
Our contract specifically states that I must ignore all protests
that a session be stopped, that if she succeeds in tricking
me into stopping the session early, I am obligated to pay
her $1,000. So far I have not have not had to pay this
fine. And I rarely have to cut sessions short.
I spend a lot of time getting to know my victims before
I do anything with them. I learn if they are susceptible
to flashbacks. I learn every little like and dislike they
have. I learn what things turn them on and what things
turn them off. Anyway, this is just a waste of my time.
I don't need to justify to you or anyone here what I do.
I am satisfied with what I do, and so are my partners,
and that is all that counts.
I do not play with anyone who is not ready to give me
their complete trust. On the other hand, I insist that
my victims give a copy of my driver's license and Passport
to someone they trust, and to tell this party, if they are not
back by a certain date and time, they should go to the
police, and report under what circumstances they are
missing.
Best regards,
alt torture
I am sorry, I am not a Dom, and I don't do things your
way. But despite your belief that you are God, and
that you get to make all the rules, that is merely your
delusion.
Alt torture
> I'm just curious how people feel when they hear a
> scene veteran say that vs. Joe Schmo on the internet.
Some Joe Schmos on the Internet are veterans! ;-)
Alt torture
"John Warren" men...@bdsbbs.com wrote:
> For another point of view, consider Kevin Erwin. If he and his
> girlfriend had not been playing with a safeword, he would probably
> be in jail for aggrevated rape now.
If Kevin Erwin employed the precautions I employ, and played
like I play, his partner never would have tried to press charges
against him in the first place, and if she had tried to press
charges, no prosecutor's office would have filed them. It is
kind of hard for the State to prove a victim hasn't given consent
when there is a notarized legal contract of what the victim
"commanded" to be done to them upon penalty of fine, and there
is a videotape of what actually was done to them, and nothing
actually was done to them other than relatively light bdsm.
Get a grip.
And the above is only the tip of the iceberg of what I do to ensure
no hassles and that a great experience is had by all. I have a
written notarized list of all things that a potential parnter has ever
experienced, including an estimate of the total number of lashes
she has ever willingly received, and picture of what the whip or
flogger looked like.. I have a complete notarized list of things that
a perspective play partner does not like. I have a lot of deep
discussions with potential partners. I get to know them better than
anyone has ever gotten to know them in their entire life, and likely
better than anyone ever will. If they don't open up to me, I don't
play with them.
I am extremely claustrophobic, and the last place I would ever
want to find myself is in a jail cell in a male prison. I don't even
know if I could handle being kept in an all female prison getting
raped once a day by the female inmates and an all female prison
staff.
Believe me when I tell you, that the way you practice S&M, you
have a lot more to worry about the law than I do.
Best regards,
alt torture
Alt torture
> I don't use codewords
I see you are one of those insane people that don't
use code ("safe") words.
> I prefer to play within pre-determined limits
I only play within very pre-determined limits. Anyone
who plays with someone like you must be crazy, if you
don't play with pre-determined limits. People like you
need to be locked up for the protection of society.
> be able to halt things by announcing "I have
> a cramp in my left calf" or whatever.
If one of my victims has a cramp, I always let them
take care of it. Not every rapist is a heartless Dom.
> know their partners so well that they have built
> up a bank of trust.
I don't play with anyone I don't know or with someone
who doesn't know me. I don't play with strangers. I only
play with people have know me, and with people I know.
I guess you play with strangers. In my book, that makes
you a slut.
> If they are talking about things that are low-risk, that's
> one thing... but if they are talking about something
> extreme
I ***only*** engage in practices that are low risk. I
never engage in so called "moderate" or extreme
practices. What you call moderate, I call extreme.
> If Charles Haines says he wants to do an extreme,
> no-safeword scene, I'm much more comfortable with
> it than is some total unknown says the same... but
> that's because Charles has a long enough history
> as a poster
Oh, that's a good reason to trust someone. They have
a long history of posting to usenet and they sound
normal. Ha.
Best regards,
alt torture
Alt torture
>> So, if this guy can't be trusted to obey a charter,
>> who the hell's going to trust him to honor a safeword?
>
> He's already indicated there would be no such thing
> under his "dominion". Apparently not a safe player to
> begin with.
Apparently, Zayphod, you sodomize little boys. Are
you still a member of NAMBLA?
Sockermom9
>If Kevin Erwin employed the precautions I employ, and played
>like I play, his partner never would have tried to press charges
>against him in the first place, and if she had tried to press
>charges, no prosecutor's office would have filed them. It is
>kind of hard for the State to prove a victim hasn't given consent
>when there is a notarized legal contract of what the victim
>"commanded" to be done to them upon penalty of fine, and there
>is a videotape of what actually was done to them, and nothing
>actually was done to them other than relatively light bdsm.
This guy's got me in stitches (which is the closest I've come to being tied up
this summer)! I want to take my next vacation in *his* reality!
I have a
>written notarized list of all things that a potential parnter has ever
>experienced, including an estimate of the total number of lashes
>she has ever willingly received, and picture of what the whip or
>flogger looked like.. I have a complete notarized list of things that
>a perspective play partner does not like.
You have a very entertained notary, no doubt.
I have a lot of deep
>discussions with potential partners. I get to know them better than
>anyone has ever gotten to know them in their entire life, and likely
>better than anyone ever will. If they don't open up to me, I don't
>play with them.
Yeah, he's another god. He knows the quality of every relationship she's ever
had or ever will. Proof of omniscience. If he passes the walking-on-water
test, I propose we take Serion down, and put this one in charge of the cult.
>Believe me when I tell you, that the way you practice S&M, you
>have a lot more to worry about the law than I do.
No, we already handled the omniscience bit--we know you know everything about
everyone, their relationships, and how they play. Is there a deep body of
water near you? Have your notary notify us of the results of the
walking-on-water test.
Lynn
>
>Best regards,
>alt torture
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Subject: Re: No safeword? (was: Re: Rape-torture victim sought in Miami)
>Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>Lines: 41
>X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
>From: altto...@aol.com (Alt torture)
>Newsgroups: soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm
>Date: 15 Aug 2001 19:00:50 GMT
>References: <9ldpjp$8v0tl$1...@ID-63352.news.dfncis.de>
>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>Message-ID: <20010815150050...@ng-bj1.aol.com>
>
TyMeDwn1st
> And all my sessions have
>proscribed limits, down to the exact number of lashes,
>to exactly how long the sessions will last, and to every torture
>that my victim will submit to. All this is put in writing, signed
>AND NOTARIZED. I have a friend who is a notary public.
>I do nothing that I am not "commanded" to do in a legal
>document.
I'd suggest you consult a very good lawyer. It's not possible to have *legal*
contract to commit an illegal act. At the most, it *may* indicate the state of
mind of the participants at the time the document was signed; beyond that, it
means very little. Having something notarized also means exactly *nothing*
except that the person signing the document is who sie claims to be.
Notarization has nothing whatsoever to do with the legality of any document
itself.
Given the rest of your rantings, however, I'm not in the least surprised that
you think a notary's seal makes something legal.
>If she tries to fake an orgasm, I will know, because she
>won't produce anything for me to drink.
:::wiping away tears of laughter::: Oh, my! Yeah, this and the notary stuff
belong in the same filefolder, all right. Right next the rest of your
blatherings.
Troll.
Ty
Who is mostly just
a slightly skewed
Donna Reed
Take a moment to do a good deed ~~~> http://www.quickdonations.com
TyMeDwn1st
>My first post was honest and true, but I from your
>perspective I understand perfectly why you consider
>me to be a troll, because I am not like you. Thank God.
>And you consider anyone who posts to "your"
>newsgroup who is not like you to be a troll. Of course,
>I don't care what losers like you think.
Which of course explains why you feel so driven to respond to each post with
juvenile rantings and name calling. You're not the first ego-driven
know-it-all troll we've had here, and compared to a few of them, you're not
even up to the mark of "clueless."
Alt torture
> As a further note, Mensa is about the *lowest* tier
> of the many high-IQ societies, with eligibility for
> more than 1 in 50 people
And Richard Feynman, one of the smartest people
who lived this century who created QED, the crown
jewel of physics, would not even have been eligible
for MENSA.
I was once a member of MENSA, but I hate having
to admit it. Anyone who knows my real name can
verify my MENSA membership. Any person who
ever qualified for MENSA is given a lifetime registration
number, and can join MENSA anytime they choose to
by paying their dues.
> but the lowest end of the curve tend to die from multiple
> other problems or are taken off life support; very few
> of the lowest 2% are visible at all in society).
This is such crap, I am not even going to bother to
address it. Believe it if you want. Most US Presidents
don't come close to qualifying for MENSA. Believe or
not Spyral, visibility in society is not a measure of IQ.
The truth is most people with very high IQs have low
visibility in society. I bet you believe P Daddy has
a high IQ, just because he has high public visibility.
Most people don't know the name of the real person
who invented the Internet or for that matter DOS.
Most people don't even know the name of the person
who invented television, and never got anything out
of his invention because patent laws don't favor
inventors, but hucksters.
I am also a member of several IQ groups with much
more stringent requirements than MENSA, but I am
not proud of my membership in these organizations,
and I certainly would not brag about belonging to them.
Most members in these groups are more obnoxious than
even I am. They tend to be selfish, elitist snobs who
have never done anything for anybody, and try to live
up to the Ben Stein caricature of arrogance, selfishness
and stinginess. These typically racist "Uncle Al" clones,
all to frequently seem to worship Ayn Rand and
libertarianism. I really can't say more without giving
away my true identity, since discussions in these
groups require people to use their real names. Of course,
there are plenty of exceptions. I live for the exceptions
to the rule. Can you tell me what articles appear in
in Noesis, the Mega Society's Journal, this month?
Best regards,
alt torture
Alt torture
> I'd suggest you consult a very good lawyer.
You wouldn't know a good lawyer, if you met one.
> It's not possible to have *legal* contract to commit an
> illegal act.
I don't commit illegal acts. My legal contracts do not
give permission for the commission of any illegal act.
> At the most, it *may* indicate the state of mind of the
> participants at the time the document was signed;
> beyond that, it means very little.
You don't know what you are talking about. It appears
you flunked-out of law school.
> Having something notarized also means exactly *nothing*
You are an ignoramous of the highest order.
> Notarization has nothing whatsoever to do with the
> legality of any document itself.
Again, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
You are not a troll, you are an idiot.
Alt torture
> This guy's got me in stitches (which is the closest
> I've come to being tied up this summer)! I want to
> take my next vacation in *his* reality!
I am sure you would, but that is not likely. But
not for the reasons you suppose.
Philip the Foole
Do you have his scores handy?
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
I wanted to find out about hallucinations, so I tried the isolation
tank.
- Ancient Kung Foole Proverb by Richard P. Feynman (to Philip the Foole)
Binder
And when did you stop sodomizing yourself with cactii?
Binder
Sockermom9
>:::wiping away tears of laughter::: Oh, my! Yeah, this and the notary stuff
>belong in the same filefolder, all right. Right next the rest of your
>blatherings.
Isn't he great? I like him much better than Shermie, or ES, or even HWSNBN.
He's got a great sense of humor.
Or...at least I *hope* he's trying to be funny.
Lynn
Alt torture
>> Alt torture: And Richard Feynman, one of the smartest
>> people who lived this century who created QED, the crown
>> jewel of physics, would not even have been eligible for
>> MENSA.
>
> Do you have his scores handy?
125
John Warren
news:20010815104152...@nso-fb.aol.com...
> Yes, I believe we have troll-sign.
> Please don't feed the troll.
[laughing] I'd say you are right. Seeing the big numbers on Outlook become
little numbers when the killfile kicked in, I'd say he's been a busy little
poster which usually means that he's getting off on the attention.
Probably time for a PISS
Zayphod
(Alt torture) writes:
I assume you have something to back that direct lie up with?
Now that you have come out and exposed yourself as a liar,
no sane person would consider you a safe person to play with.
Since you can't tell the truth, obviously no one should ever
believe you are a safe person to play with, either.
BLDRNRpdx
I've heard enough people say "I don't play with safewords" to make sure I
listen to the *next* sentence or three that follows.
If what follows is "We use regular words" or "I'd rather sie *tell* me what's
going on" or anything like that, I generally don't worry too much. I may or
may not play with that person, but it's not likely to do with the safeword
issue.
If what follows is "Safewords tell me the scene is over. Period." or "We don't
play with safewords - if anything goes wrong, the scene stops", then I may ask
for a bunch of clarification. What does "something going wrong" mean to this
person? *Wrong*-wrong, or including small foot cramps and stuff? Personally,
I don't think there's a need to stop a whole scene for little things like that,
but I do feel they should be acknowledged if not addressed.
If what follows is *anything* akin to "Safewords are for wimps", then I smile
politely and back away slowly.
---Excerpted from The Official Way To Do Things According To Bladerunner
(just kidding productions)
Bladerunner
KATS: Kidz & Adultz Together Sharing, an Ageplay group
http:www.geocities.com/katspdx
BLDRNRpdx
<<Hello Professor Warren,
I am all knowing in my world like you sodomize little boys in yours.>>
And awaaaaay we go....
Bladerunner
sitting this one out
Crystal
kathari...@hotmail.com (Katharine H.) wrote:
<a bunch of thought-worthy stuff>
> One thing you mentioned was giving someone a safeword when things
> intensified. Generally, I'd recommend against this -- I don't think
> it's a good idea to "change the rules" mid-scene. Instead, just
> checking in seems to work well with most people.
Just to clarify... I didn't mean that I assign somebody a safeword
mid-scene. I meant that when I first play with someone new, I don't
usually do anything too intense, and stop means stop. Later on--days,
weeks, or months down the road--if I'm still playing with her and we both
want to go into heavier territory, where stop doesn't mean stop anymore,
I'll give her a safeword. I prefer "red" because it seems to be so
universally accepted, and because it's short and easy to remember and easy
to say on one sharp exhaled breath. Otherwise, "no" or "stop" or "ow, I
have a cramp in my leg" are all grounds for stopping at least temporarily.
Ever wish you could safeword when you're not even in a scene? I was really
tempted to do it this weekend. In a way, I wish I'd tried it--it might
have stopped the weird interaction that was starting to make me feel freaky
and scared with someone I really really really wanted to feel close to.
Sigh. Live and learn, I guess.
Crystal
--
Uppity women unite!
Crystal
<men...@bdsbbs.com> wrote:
> Most of the people who have told me that don't like safewords are
> submissives. IMO, they are shifting an unacceptable, to me, amount of the
> risk and potential blame to the dominants.
and
> For another point of view, consider Kevin Erwin. If he and his girlfriend
> had not been playing with a safeword, he would probably be in jail for
> aggrevated rape now.
These are very good points and ones I shall definitely think about. Thank you.
Alt torture
> I've heard enough people say . . . I generally don't
> worry too much.
May I suggest you worry about yourself, and not
about others. If you want I can start worrying about
what you do!
Alt torture
> Now that you have come out and exposed yourself as a liar,
> no sane person would consider you a safe person to play with.
> Since you can't tell the truth, obviously no one should ever
> believe you are a safe person to play with, either.
Now, that you've come out as a sympathizer for NAMBLA,
no one should ever believe you are a safe or sane person.
.
Alt torture
> You have a very entertained notary, no doubt.
Yup, she is very entertained. She herself has no
sex life. She and her husband are enemies yet
live together because they are codependant,
have major responsibilities neither can walk away
from She she lives vicariously though my
escapades. She said if she had known about
s&m when she was younger that she probably
would have become addicted to it.
Alt torture
> we should stop encouraging him by replying to
> him. Go home, little boy.
DonSide B is such an idiot, he give advice in
one line, and then ignores it in the very next
sentence. Really bright DonSideB.
DonSideB
adult, not even he who shall not be mentioned, is this clueless and arrogant.
Children do not belong here and we should stop encouraging him by replying to
him.
Go home, little boy.
don
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. - Edward R Murrow
SSBB Diplomatic Corps: Tidewater Virginia
SilverOz
BLDRNRpdx <bldr...@aol.comspamblok> wrote:
>Regarding the "safeword" issue:
>
>I've heard enough people say "I don't play with safewords" to make sure I
>listen to the *next* sentence or three that follows.
>
>If what follows is "We use regular words" or "I'd rather sie *tell* me what's
>going on" or anything like that, I generally don't worry too much. I may or
>may not play with that person, but it's not likely to do with the safeword
>issue.
>
>If what follows is "Safewords tell me the scene is over. Period." or "We don't
>play with safewords - if anything goes wrong, the scene stops", then I may ask
>for a bunch of clarification. What does "something going wrong" mean to this
>person? *Wrong*-wrong, or including small foot cramps and stuff? Personally,
>I don't think there's a need to stop a whole scene for little things like that,
>but I do feel they should be acknowledged if not addressed.
>
I agree - reasons are vital.
We don't use them because
- I find that I can't go far enough if I can stop the scene. I have
very well developed pain avoidance, and if I can stop it I will,
whether I want to or not. I've tried to deal with the reflex and
can't seem to. I find it *very* hard to give up control.
- We are very much control players. It's important to us that the
dom is the one in control. To us, the "safeword" concept is a
control.
Note that this *doesn't* mean "the sub doesn't communicate with the dom",
what it means is "the dom makes the decision, not the sub".
So I can and have said "I am not coping". He then decides if he wants
to continue. If he does depends on a lot of things - how he feels,
his reading of me, things I've told him, his goal for the scene.
He can, and has, continued. He can, and has, stopped. The key for us
is that the decision is his.
Yes, he's made wrong decisions, and yes, I've been damaged by them.
We accept that risk, because we think the result is worth that risk.
We have also worked up to it. When we started, he'd not go far, and
if he did he'd always stop if I expressed distress. We also did a lot
of debriefing. As time went on, the control and acceptance of control
shifted.
There's a lot of communication - verbal and non-verbal. But the
*control* is his. There is nothing I can do that will guarantee a
particular action on his part[1].
IT's possible to describe this style in a way that makes him come across
as a dangerous arrogant arsehole of course :) OR me as a naive or
foolish fantasiser. I think it's important in judging a style to
see how the people present it and themselves. When I have talked to
prospective doms about my take on safewords, the way I say it is going
to be crucial. Any sensible one is going to run a mile if I imply they
need to be mindreaders for example!
SilverOz
[1] although rubbing his feet comes close!
Spyral Fox
(Sockermom9) writes:
He must be. Even *I* think he's hilarious. Not up to Mongol's
level, of course -- I *loved* the post with the suggestion about
the telephone -- but there's no possible way that anyone can
write this much funny drivel without intent to amuse. I've got
the troll killfiled, of course, but I almost fell out of my chair
laughing about the notary business.
- - Spyral Fox
SSBB Diplomatic Corps member & Depooty Charter Enforcer (CLG)
San Diego's Migratory Munch is back!
Resource Page: http://members.aol.com/spyralfox/index.html
SSBB Cookbook: http://members.aol.com/ssbbcooks/
Alt torture
here. So I don't know why I'm going to give
you this very good piece of legal advise,
that you can choose to ignore at your own
peril. Perhaps, it is because I would like you
to ignore it, only to find out too late how
valid it is. I suggest anyone who practices
bdsm on a regular basis go to a criminal
defense attorney in their state, and pay them
$2,000 to research their state law, advise
them as to what is and is not legal in their
state, and as to what precautions should be
taken to protect oneself from being brought
up on false charges.
The reason it is important to have contracts
like this notarized is first, so the person can't
deny the signature is theirs*, but more
importantly so they can't claim they were
forced to sign the contract under duress.
It is very easy for someone who was admittedly
bound and under your control to claim they
were forced to sign a contract.
Consent is most often considered a valid defense to
rape, though there are many exceptions. Consent
would also quite likely be considered a valid defense
to light bdsm practices, which I would define as any
practice that does not cause permanent injury--physical
or mental. Consent probably would not protect you,
if you maimed someone.
Aside from legal technicalities, it is very unlikely
that a jury in any major urban city in the US is
going to convict someone of a crime for engaging
in ***MILD*** bdsm, if the alleged victim has signed
a notarized contract commanding the defendant
to do what was done. And very few DAs or
State Attorneys are going to file an information,
if they know they that no jury is going to convict.
It is bad news when a DA or SA loses a highly
publicized case. And any case like this would
become a highly publicized case.
Videotape serves three purposes. One, it shows
what really happened. There is no "he said,
she said." Second, it ups the ante for a sub
bringing charges. Once a sub knows that
such a tape will be seen by police, the
persecutor's office, a judge, and a jury, she is
likely to think twice before attempting to bring
charges due to a change of heart. Of course,
videotapes also make nice mementos. I always
offer all my "victims" a free copy.
*It is not always possible to verify someone's
signature. I am always on my guard against
a devious sub or "victim," who might try to set
me up, and later sue me for all I am worth.
Of course, my primary tool in this regard is
really getting to know my victim before we play.
An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
This is especially true when it comes to legal
matters. Needless to say, one should create
a paper trail and save all correspondence.
One should have a hardcopy of all email, in
the event one has a computer crash. From
the beginning one should take safety measures
as if they believed they were going to be
charged with a crime. I believe legal safety is
just as important if not more important than
medical safety. The more legal precautions
you take, the less likely you are to be arrested,
charged with a crime, and perhaps sent to
prison for life. If a sub dies during a session,
and you don't have a videotape of your session,
all I can say is, "Lot's of luck." You can't know
if someone has a bad heart or hidden medical
condition. You can claim your play was consensual,
but with a dead partner, no notarized contract, and
no video, you could have be in a lot of trouble.
Don't believe that in the US, defendants are presumed
innocent until proven guilty. Technically, this is true.
But realistically most defendants have to overcome a
heavy presumption of guilt, because people believe
that most people who are arrested are guilty, and where
there is smoke, there is fire. Jury members tend to be
cynical and are often willing to believe the worst, especially
in a case where someone has died. There is a real
need to punish someone. Be aware that good defense
attorneys don't come cheap. Roy Black cost William
Kennedy Smith over a million dollars. Marv Albert got
off a little better. Legal precautions are just as important
as other safety precautions in bdsm. Engaging in bdsm
without taking the necessary legal precautions is like
walking a tightrope without a net.
I really find it amusing that all of you place so much
faith in safe words, and you worry so much about
the medical consequences of what you do, but you
concern yourself so little with the potential legal
ramifications. You can call me crazy for not playing
with safe words, but I call you crazy for laughing
at what I consider to be basic legal precautions.
In an era where people are charged with rape for
consensual sex, where people ought to have
a consent and disclosure form signed every time
they have sex, you have people here who think it
is legally safe to engage in bdsm without having
a consent form signed. You can call me crazy,
all you like, but I think you are ones who are crazy.
Disclaimer:
I make no warranty or guarantee concerning the
accuracy or reliability of the above words. I assume
no liability for any reliance on the information provided.
The above information is not intended to create
an attorney-client relationship, and shall not be
construed as legal advice.
I, myself, do not claim to be an attorney, but if I were
one, the contents o fthis disclaimer shall still have force
of law. US law is state specific, and US laws vary from
state to state. Anyone reading this post is advised to
consult with an experienced, licensed attorney in their
own state, who specializes in criminal law.
Proverbial
> Believe me when I tell you, my sleep at night will not be
> effected by my knowing that I have violated the charter
> of some usenet newsgroup.
Hmm . . .*effected* . . . and you say you qualified for Mensa.
Proverbial
~~
reply address: prove...@goodart.com; e-mail address fake
~~~~~
Alt torture
I just reread my last post, and realize that I misspoke. I wrote in the
first paragraph, "I'm going to give you this very good piece of legal
advise." I, hereby, state that this sentence that was written in error.
I wish to correct what I wrote in this sentence. Here is my correction:
My previous post was NOT legal advise, but unresearched,
non-professional personal opinion.
Please read the disclaimer at the bottom of the post, and ignore the
sentence above that is in quotes. Thank you.
Signed,
Alt Torture
Norton Zenger
>zay...@aol.com.com.com (Zayphod) wrote:
>> You're also very careful not to read the ssbb
>> charter that states very clearly "no personal ads".
>
>How remiss can someone possibly be. You charter
>***very clearly*** states "no personal ads." I have
>committed an atrocious crime, I have violated your
>charter.
>
>Oh my God, I violated your precious charter! How
>shall I ever do penitence?
Well, you could _go the fuck away_. Just off the top of my head. Of
course, I sincerely doubt you will, but we'll all just wind up
ignoring you anyhow. Same result.
- alt.fan.richard-nixon
--
"FUCKING STUPID BASTARD COMPUTERS! FUCKING INFORMATION
SUPERHIGHWAY HORSESHIT! MAKE LIFE EASIER MY HAIRY FAT
COCK! BRING ME THE HEAD OF BILL FUCKING GATES!"- Starr
Mailing list: http://www.topica.com/lists/bdsm_under30
Norton Zenger
Trolls these days can't even bother to come up with decent ad
hominems. It's a fookin' disgrace.
Norton Zenger
>spyr...@aol.com (Spyral Fox) wrote:
>> As a further note, Mensa is about the *lowest* tier
>> of the many high-IQ societies, with eligibility for
>> more than 1 in 50 people
>
>And Richard Feynman, one of the smartest people
>who lived this century who created QED, the crown
>jewel of physics, would not even have been eligible
>for MENSA.
>
>I was once a member of MENSA, but I hate having
>to admit it.
You so hate having to admit it, in fact, that you bragged about your
eligibility in your first post to this newsgroup.
I also find it kind of weird that Spyral's post set for the _correct_
capitalization of Mensa, which you then proceeded to completely
ignore. Hey, no big deal; I've made that mistake, too, but not
DIRECTLY FOLLOWING UP TO A POST stating that "Mensa is not an
acronym".
>> but the lowest end of the curve tend to die from multiple
>> other problems or are taken off life support; very few
>> of the lowest 2% are visible at all in society).
>
>This is such crap, I am not even going to bother to
>address it. Believe it if you want. Most US Presidents
>don't come close to qualifying for MENSA. Believe or
>not Spyral, visibility in society is not a measure of IQ.
Excuse me. Let me get this straight. You are arguing with Spyral-
who is more knowledgable about Mensa than any human being I have ever
known- about the TRUE NATURE of Mensa? Whaddya gonna do for an
encore, show off your MAD KUNG FU SKILLZ on PTF? Maybe get into a
debate with Thorney and Mrs. Thorney about comparative religion? Hey,
if you're up for it, I'd be glad to discuss 1970s progressive rock,
dude.
>The truth is most people with very high IQs have low
>visibility in society. I bet you believe P Daddy has
>a high IQ, just because he has high public visibility.
>Most people don't know the name of the real person
>who invented the Internet or for that matter DOS.
Oh, that one's easy. Fuckin' Al Gore invented them both.
>Most people don't even know the name of the person
>who invented television, and never got anything out
>of his invention because patent laws don't favor
>inventors, but hucksters.
And most people don't know the name of the electric flugelhorn player
for the 1970s Belgian rock combo "Arkham". What the hell is your
point?
>I am also a member of several IQ groups with much
>more stringent requirements than MENSA, but I am
>not proud of my membership in these organizations,
>and I certainly would not brag about belonging to them.
>Most members in these groups are more obnoxious than
>even I am.
My God. You've come close to RECOGNIZING YOUR OWN INSUFFERABLE
ARROGANCE. I thought self-knowledge was verboten in trolls.
Still and all, I'll believe it when I see it. Hah!
> They tend to be selfish, elitist snobs who
>have never done anything for anybody, and try to live
>up to the Ben Stein caricature of arrogance, selfishness
>and stinginess.
Excuse me? What the hell do you have against Ben Stein? He rawks,
plain and simple.
> These typically racist "Uncle Al" clones,
>all to frequently seem to worship Ayn Rand and
>libertarianism. I really can't say more without giving
>away my true identity, since discussions in these
>groups require people to use their real names. Of course,
>there are plenty of exceptions. I live for the exceptions
>to the rule. Can you tell me what articles appear in
>in Noesis, the Mega Society's Journal, this month?
1. "Picking Your Nose and Eating It: A Comparative Guide"
2. "Etruscan Gay Porn"
3. "Star Trek Or Doctor Who: Which Is Cooler?"
4. "The Shape of the Universe: Doughnut or Kruller?"
5. "How to Dispose of a Dead Body"
6. "Things I Have Found Shoved Up My Own Ass", by Prince, president
pro tempore of the Mega Society
7. "Mega Man: How 'Mega' is he?"
...among many other scintillating selections.
Alt torture
> Alt torture wrote:
> > Believe me when I tell you, my sleep at night will not be
> > effected by my knowing that I have violated the charter
> > of some usenet newsgroup.
>
> Hmm . . .*effected* . . . and you say you qualified for Mensa.
> Proverbial
You are stupendously ignorant if you think members of MENSA
don't make grammar and/or spelling errors in general, and especially
in newsgroup posts. If you really want to be entertained, I suggest
you check out posts by Mary Dwyer Wolfe in the newsgroup
mensa.talk.misc. Not everyone who posts there is a member
of MENSA, but Mary is. She was on the International Cyberspace
Committee that is responsible for the newsgroup. She created
the American Mensa Website. She has a Ph.D. in computer
programming. And she currently is a professor at a university
teaching college students. This link below can help you find out
who Mary really is.
Mary's spelling and grammar errors are so numerous and so
atrocious as to be comical, yet she is the most priggish, pedantic
being, this side of Orion. Which only goes to prove my saying that
it is the blackest pot that goes around calling other pots black.
http://www.google.com/search?q=mary+dwyer+wolfe+mensa&btnG=Google+Search
As it turns out, I've been misusing the word "effect" all my life. I thought
I knew the difference between "effect" and "affect," but I was wrong.
I thank you for correcting me. I learned something new and important
today from you. You've proved what I've claimed all along. I don't know
***everything.*** ;-) Here is a very basic simple thing I never knew.
I am indebted to you. I suppose when it comes to grammar and spelling,
there are times I can be stupendously ignorant. I could have claimed
this error was a typo or simply a thoughtless oversight. But I have no
problem, admitting my mistakes, even when they are gross like this one.
In fact, I am happy when others uncover my mistakes. It gives me a
chance to admit I am wrong, and prove to others that I have no problem
being looked upon as fallible. Please feel free to correct any other
grammar errors you see in my writing.
affect [3] (verb transitive)
: to produce an effect upon: as
a : to produce a material influence upon or alteration in <paralysis ~ed his
limbs>
b : to act upon (as a person or a person's mind or feelings) so as to effect
a response : INFLUENCE
usage The confusion of the verbs affect and effect is not only quite common but
has a long history. Effect was used in place of affect [3] as early as 1494 and
in place of affect [2] as early as 1652. If you think you want to use the verb
effect but are not certain, check the definitions in this dictionary. The noun
affect is sometimes mistakenly used for effect. Except when your topic is
psychology, you will seldom need the noun affect
M Shirley Chong
> I
> mean, when playing really heavy games it seems like it could be difficult
> to distinguish between the screaming and crying that come with "I'm scared
> to death but loving it" and "I'm scared to death and I'm going to need
> therapy for five years if you don't stop now"
Third option: "I'm scared to death and if I survive this, you won't
when I get loose."
Shirley
to reply via e-mail remove the trees from my address
Alt torture
>> I was once a ***MEMBER*** of MENSA, but I hate
>
> You so hate having to admit it, in fact, that you
There is a difference between bragging that one
is eligible for MENSA, and claiming one is a
member of MENSA. Moreover, I did not "
***BRAG***" that I was member or eligible.
> I also find it kind of weird that Spyral's post set for
> the _correct_ capitalization of Mensa, which you
> then proceeded to completely ignore
MENSA is often spelled in all caps.
> Excuse me. Let me get this straight. You are arguing
> with Spyral-who is more knowledgable about Mensa
> than any human being I have ever known- about the
> TRUE NATURE of Mensa?
This may come as a terrible shock to you, but the
number of human beings you know represents only
a small fraction of the number of human beings on
Earth. Just because one person you know, knows
more than any other person you know, does not
logically imply there are not others that know more
than even this person. Retake logic 101, then get
back to me. You might want to start with Copi's
symbolic logic.
> Oh, that one's easy. Fuckin' Al Gore invented them both.
Gore never said he invented the Internet. But Gore was
instrumental in making the Internet the popular public
medium it is today. Gore was smeared. By the way,
the person who can best be described as the father
of the Internet, backs the actual claim Gore made.
>> Most people don't even know the name of the person
>> who invented television, and never got anything out
>> of his invention because patent laws don't favor
>> inventors, but hucksters.
>
> And most people don't know the name of the electric
> flugelhorn player for the 1970s Belgian rock combo
> "Arkham". What the hell is your point?
If you had more than a handful of functioning brain cells,
you would have known that my point was public visibility
has nothing to do with IQ, creative genius, inventiveness,
or contributions to society. Spyral tried to conclude from
the fact that most members of MENSA do not have high
public visibility that they are not really all that smart. It is
sad that I have spoon feed you content. Try taking a
remedial reading course.
> What the hell do you have against Ben Stein?
In case you didn't realize it, he plays a caricature of
himself.
> He rawks, plain and simple.
It would help if you came across plain and simple.
You're not lapsing into Chinese, are you?
> .among many other scintillating selections.
Not surprisingly, your selections for this month's
Noesis are not correct.
Best regards,
alt torture
C. Coffman
Cecilia
Amanda
Alt torture <altto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010815151626...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> spyr...@aol.com (Spyral Fox) wrote:
> > I don't use codewords
>
> I see you are one of those insane people that don't
> use code ("safe") words.
>
> > I prefer to play within pre-determined limits
>
> I only play within very pre-determined limits. Anyone
> who plays with someone like you must be crazy, if you
> don't play with pre-determined limits. People like you
> need to be locked up for the protection of society.
>
> > be able to halt things by announcing "I have
> > a cramp in my left calf" or whatever.
>
> If one of my victims has a cramp, I always let them
> take care of it. Not every rapist is a heartless Dom.
>
> > know their partners so well that they have built
> > up a bank of trust.
>
> I don't play with anyone I don't know or with someone
> who doesn't know me. I don't play with strangers. I only
> play with people have know me, and with people I know.
> I guess you play with strangers. In my book, that makes
> you a slut.
>
> > If they are talking about things that are low-risk, that's
> > one thing... but if they are talking about something
> > extreme
>
> I ***only*** engage in practices that are low risk. I
> never engage in so called "moderate" or extreme
> practices. What you call moderate, I call extreme.
>
> > If Charles Haines says he wants to do an extreme,
> > no-safeword scene, I'm much more comfortable with
> > it than is some total unknown says the same... but
> > that's because Charles has a long enough history
> > as a poster
>
> Oh, that's a good reason to trust someone. They have
> a long history of posting to usenet and they sound
> normal. Ha.
>
> Best regards,
> alt torture
Just checking my English vocab here, what was the definition of rape again?
Sockermom9
>The fact is I don't like most people who post
>here. So I don't know why I'm going to give
>you this very good piece of legal advise,
>that you can choose to ignore at your own
>peril. Perhaps, it is because I would like you
>to ignore it, only to find out too late how
>valid it is. I suggest anyone who practices
>bdsm on a regular basis go to a criminal
>defense attorney in their state, and pay them
>$2,000 to research their state law, advise
>them as to what is and is not legal in their
>state, and as to what precautions should be
>taken to protect oneself from being brought
>up on false charges.
See? I told you he was fun!
>
>The reason it is important to have contracts
>like this notarized is first, so the person can't
>deny the signature is theirs*, but more
>importantly so they can't claim they were
>forced to sign the contract under duress.
>It is very easy for someone who was admittedly
>bound and under your control to claim they
>were forced to sign a contract.
>
>Consent is most often considered a valid defense to
>rape, though there are many exceptions.
Yeah, like when she withdraws consent and you ignore it. But don't mind me;
you *like* paying for legal advice you could get yourself that won't protect
you anyway.
Consent
>would also quite likely be considered a valid defense
>to light bdsm practices, which I would define as any
>practice that does not cause permanent injury--physical
>or mental. Consent probably would not protect you,
>if you maimed someone.
Or caused them to be so traumatized, after withdrawing their consent, that they
had to visit the ER, the rape crisis center, and the therapist for years. But,
of course, since it hasn't happened *yet*, it won't.
>
>Aside from legal technicalities, it is very unlikely
>that a jury in any major urban city in the US is
>going to convict someone of a crime for engaging
>in ***MILD*** bdsm, if the alleged victim has signed
>a notarized contract commanding the defendant
>to do what was done.
Of course. I forgot that you only do *mild* BDSM, and that those of us who do
anything you don't do are sick, and therefore have no worthwhile opinion. But,
of course, ignoring safewords or requests to stop is mild. As is rape--forcing
unwanted sexual contact on a person.
And very few DAs or
>State Attorneys are going to file an information,
>if they know they that no jury is going to convict.
>It is bad news when a DA or SA loses a highly
>publicized case. And any case like this would
>become a highly publicized case.
Not to mention profitable.
>Videotape serves three purposes. One, it shows
>what really happened. There is no "he said,
>she said." Second, it ups the ante for a sub
>bringing charges. Once a sub knows that
>such a tape will be seen by police, the
>persecutor's office, a judge, and a jury, she is
>likely to think twice before attempting to bring
>charges due to a change of heart. Of course,
>videotapes also make nice mementos. I always
>offer all my "victims" a free copy.
All blackmailers do.
>*It is not always possible to verify someone's
> signature. I am always on my guard against
> a devious sub or "victim," who might try to set
> me up, and later sue me for all I am worth.
I encourage you to continue in this practice. I suspect you'll need it.
Lynn
SilverOz
Spyral Fox <spyr...@aol.com> wrote:
>Now, some people have repuations that mean I do cut them
>quite a bit more slack than others. If Charles Haines says
>he wants to do an extreme, no-safeword scene, I'm much
>more comfortable with it than is some total unknown says the
>same... but that's because Charles has a long enough history
>as a reader, have built up some trust in the idea that he knows
>a lot about the potential risks, and that his vict--- errr.... partner
>in the scene would be fully informed of them before the
>scene began.
>
I think it's important to note that Charles has a fairly good rep outside
the net. Lots of people other people respect will say "I know him,
and he's OK". Lots of people other people respect will say "I've played
with him and he's OK".
It's also important to note that people who other people respect
*don't* say "Charles is a twonk".
It's as much about the web of respect and knowledge that gives someone
"a rep" as what they say or their posting history.
Everyone who has any kind of profile, especially someone who has an
extreme one, like Charles, will have detractors as well as those who
give him good marks. So the web of trust has to include the ones
giving the answers. Are *they* trusted? What's their history and
rep? Think of Kadet vs Janet Hardy when the person being asked about
is John Warren.
Whereas *I* would be a far harder example. I'm not well known outside
the net. Those who do know me off the net don't know me from playparties
or much play at all really, I do it privately. There are at most 4 or
5 people who could give first hand accounts of my playing, and one of
those hasn't played with me for years, I've changed a lot.
But there are people who know me in social contexts who can judge me
as a person - am I reliable, do I lie, do I treat others well, do I
own up to mistakes, do I have an inflated idea of my own abilities or
worth? Their assessments would be valuable to someone wanting to play
with me.
To some extent my posting history helps - am I consistent in what I
espouse, how to do treat others, do I show signs of learning? But I
think the web of trust is more important than posting history.
SilverOz
Spyral Fox
<rusho...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> but the lowest end of the curve tend to die from multiple
>>> other problems or are taken off life support; very few
>>> of the lowest 2% are visible at all in society).
>>
>>This is such crap, I am not even going to bother to
>>address it. Believe it if you want. Most US Presidents
>>don't come close to qualifying for MENSA. Believe or
>>not Spyral, visibility in society is not a measure of IQ.
>
>Excuse me. Let me get this straight. You are arguing with Spyral-
>who is more knowledgable about Mensa than any human being I have ever
>known- about the TRUE NATURE of Mensa?
::::blush:::: I am sure that you know others. They are just
not as outspoken as I am. ;-) This may be because they
don't want to court the prejudice that usually leads to my
receipt of some hate mail every time I mention my membership.
FWIW, the twit apparently missed my point, which had
absolutely nothing to do with visibility of the people who
score better on IQ tests, but rather with the invisibility of
the lowest scorers.
One of my mom's jobs, back when she was a practicing
OTR, was to do assessment of people in nursing homes,
to assign them IQs based on things like "able to swallow
when water is dripped on tongue" and "blinks when cornea
is tapped." You don't see the lowest 2% because they
are in institutions. My youngest sibling's spouse works
for ARC (Association of Retarded Citizens), supervising
the job placement folks and such. Most of their clientele
are not especially visible, either -- although some live in
group homes and hold jobs. About 12% of the population
is in this group (+/- 3%). You might see them picking up
trash at the TJ border or stocking shelves at Walmart, but
they aren't as visible as the people with normal or above
normal scores on IQ tests when you are moving through
society. Like the DHH population, they tend to socialize
mostly with each other, and the rest of society has some
difficulty in finding common ground.
So, the comment about presidents mystifies me. I certainly
never claimed that there's any correlation between IQ
scores and being elected. Indeed, judging by the public
response to Sununu and Gore, having a high IQ that is
publicized or even *appearing* to be bright can lose you
poll points. OTOH, our current president has never struck
me as being especially bright -- although he is allegedly
well-educated and it is, IME, hard to judge when your only
demonstrations are verbal expressions from someone who
seems to have some sort of learning disabilities. The
learning disabilities themselves do not correlate with IQ
much, AFAIK (I certainly know a number of very bright
people who have them, but they are also a feature of many
types of low-IQ causing genetic syndromes).
Life would certainly be *simpler* if there were any clear-cut
links between IQ and the rest of one's personality, interests,
profession, etc. but it's not there. I know lots of bright people
who are high-school dropouts or and lots who have earned
double PhDs, many who are blue-collar workers and many
who are working wizards, many who are right wing wackos
and many who are left wing nuts, some who are
monomaniacal about one topic and some who are polymaths,
a number of devout Christians and a number of devout Wiccans,
some who are totally skeptical about almost everything and
some whose minds are so open that it's a wonder their brains
haven't fallen out. And so on.
About the only generalization that can be made about Mensa
members is that they are good at IQ tests and willing to pay
their dues. Heck, I even know a few Mensans who not only
aren't readers, but who don't even like chocolate.
Cathbodua
>From: altto...@aol.com (Alt torture)
>Date: Tue, Aug 14, 2001 3:13 AM
>I qualified for Mensa. I think this is important to say,
>because a lot of unfortunate accidents happen because
>there are a lot of people who are not too bright and don't
>realize what is dangerous and what is safe.
If you're dim enough to think that qualifying for Mensa implies either common
sense or native wit, may God have mercy on you.
Charlotte
Spyral Fox
(SilverOz) writes:
>>same... but that's because Charles has a long enough history
>>as a poster (although it's now rare to see him here) that I,
>>as a reader, have built up some trust in the idea that he knows
>>a lot about the potential risks, and that his vict--- errr.... partner
>>in the scene would be fully informed of them before the
>>scene began.
>>
>
>I think it's important to note that Charles has a fairly good rep outside
>the net. Lots of people other people respect will say "I know him,
>and he's OK". Lots of people other people respect will say "I've played
>with him and he's OK".
>
>It's also important to note that people who other people respect
>*don't* say "Charles is a twonk".
Yep. My fault for poor wording -- that's exactly what I was
getting at. Not that he's posted a lot personally, but that he
has a *history* as one of many people in conversations
where others have met him face-to-face, have seen what
he does to his partners, etc. In my head, this is part of
what goes along with a history of posting. OTOH, hwsnbn
sure posted a LOT, but the things I observed from both
the on-line interactions in this forum and ASB and the
comments from people who have met his past partners
are part of his history, and he has not earned any trust
from me.
Cathbodua
I also wish to let any Mensans out there know that I do not assume they are not
sensible or clever, merely that their IQ numbers will not let me know one way
or another.
Moving right along....
Charlotte
>Subject: Re: Rape-torture victim sought in Miami
>From: cath...@aol.com (Cathbodua)
>Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 11:10 PM
>Message-id: <20010816021025...@mb-ml.aol.com>
inn...@prometheus.frii.com
> > And all my sessions have
> >proscribed limits, down to the exact number of lashes, to exactly
> >how long the sessions will last, and to every torture that my victim
> >will submit to. All this is put in writing, signed AND NOTARIZED.
> >I have a friend who is a notary public. I do nothing that I am not
> >"commanded" to do in a legal document.
In many Western countries it is impossible to contract out of certain
things, one being that you if you sign a contact selling yourself into
slavery it cannot be enforced. In England the Spanner case showed that
you cannot consent to 'bodily harm' and even if you do, the state can
still prosecute.
Don't you find such 'scripts' a bit limiting?
--
Anson
Want to get in touch with the New Zealand BDSM community?
New Zealand BDSM Resource site: http://www.whisper.co.nz
New Zealand BDSM Newsletter available: bd...@thenet.co.nz
SilverOz
inn...@prometheus.frii.com <inn...@prometheus.frii.com> wrote:
>altto...@aol.com (Alt torture) wrote:
>> > And all my sessions have
>> >proscribed limits, down to the exact number of lashes, to exactly
>> >how long the sessions will last, and to every torture that my victim
>> >will submit to. All this is put in writing, signed AND NOTARIZED.
>> >I have a friend who is a notary public. I do nothing that I am not
>> >"commanded" to do in a legal document.
>
>In many Western countries it is impossible to contract out of certain
>things, one being that you if you sign a contact selling yourself into
>slavery it cannot be enforced. In England the Spanner case showed that
>you cannot consent to 'bodily harm' and even if you do, the state can
>still prosecute.
>
>Don't you find such 'scripts' a bit limiting?
>
Well, the original ad said
"Like "Mr. politically incorrect," I do not employ safe
words, though I am careful not to take pain beyond a
certain point. Part of my expertise is knowing just how
much pain a subject can safely take, mentally. A lot of
"experts" and edge players will say this is impossible,
that without safewords it is easy to go too far. In
general, this may be true, but I am not typical."
Which doesn't sound much like "I do exactly as told".
SilverOz
Alt torture
> Yeah, like when she withdraws consent and you ignore it.
> But don't mind me; you *like* paying for legal advice
> you could get yourself that won't protect you anyway.
Once "consent" has been established. The prosecution
must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was withdrawn.
This would be pretty difficult for the prosecution to prove,
and a tough sell to any jury. You won't find many rape
cases prosecuted where the female consented to have
sex, sex began, the female withdrew her consent, and the
guy continued to have sex with her. I don't think there is a
persecutor in the world that would bring such a case or a
jury that would convict in such a case. Otherwise, you could
charge every guy who promised to pull out and didn't, with
rape. Once it has been established that at one point consent
was given, there has to be pretty hard evidence that consent
was withdrawn. It is tough to prove rape even in cases
where there is no clear indication that consent was ever
given. One more point here I would like to make, and
that is that my consent form states something like the
following:
I, so and so, enjoy having the following things
done to me during sex.
List of items.
a.
b.
c.
I, so and so, may struggle violently. I may frantically
scream and cry for _________ to stop. Despite this
conduct on my part, I, hereby, command
___________ upon penalty of aforesaid fine to ignore
my screaming and crying. I, hereby, command
___________ upon penalty of aforesaid fine to
ignore any and all requests to stop, any or all pleadings
to stop, and any or all indications to stop, verbal or
otherwise. I, hereby, wish to inform _______ and the
public that all such conduct on my part is not an
expression of my true will. I engage in this conduct
because I like the illusion of having the above things
done to me against my will . . . . and so on and so forth.
Giving a sub or "victim" the right to use a safe word can
open up criminal liability issues for the top. In the Ohio
case, the defendant could have been screwed if the
"victim" in the case testified that she used their agreed
upon safe word, and he ignored it. Many prosecutors
will "coach" a witness. Here is how coaching is done.
The prosecutor will say to the supposed "victim," if you
testify that you did not use an agreed upon safe word,
this case will be difficult to win. If you testify that you
did use an agreed upon safe word, this case is much
stronger. Now, let me ask you, "Did you use an agreed
upon safe word." The "victim" thinks for a few seconds
then gets a clue, and says, Yes, I used an agreed upon
safe word." The prosecutor often winks and nods or
uses a certain tone of voice that lets the "victim" know
that this lie is okay. Not every prosecutor does this, but
quite a few do. Many prosecutors feel it is their obligation!
This is the reality of the American justice system. The
"victim," police and defendant are often heavily coached.
The "victim" and "police" are informed what they must testify
to make the prosecution's case. The "defendant" is informed
what he must testify to, to be found innocent. It is not
surprising that courtroom testimony is often tailored to fit
the law, and not very truthful. Juries would be shocked if
they knew the amount of "coaching" that went on. "Coaching"
is really just another word for encouraging specific instances
of perjury.
> Or caused them to be so traumatized, after withdrawing
> their consent, that they had to visit the ER, the rape crisis
> center, and the therapist for years.
Under such circumstances, there probably would be
grounds for prosecution under the premise that no one
would give permission to be treated in such a way.
And I would concur with such a prosecution.
> But, of course, since it hasn't happened *yet*, it won't.
It hasn't happened yet, because I am extremely careful
to make sure it doesn't happen. I am a switch. I know
what it is like to be a "bottom." And my pleasure as a
sadist is giving erotic pain, not emotional trauma. I
don't come close to what you fear. I am also acutely
aware of my legal liabilities. I know if I go too far,
I can spend the rest of my life in jail. As I mentioned
I am severely claustrophobic. This is more than
enough incentive for me not to cross my victim's
pain threshold very far. I know it doesn't take much
to rend a mind. Though, I am curious to hear about
the effects of too much pain. I am curious as to the
lasting effects it has on the mind, short of leaving
someone permanently incoherent.
> Of course. I forgot that you only do *mild* BDSM, and
> that those of us who do anything you don't do are sick
Obviously, you don't understand the use of irony. What
you do is none of my business. I have my personal
opinion about it, but I keep it to myself, unless you first
start judging what I do. I am afraid you cast the first stone.
Don't blame me if you did so while standing in a glass house.
> therefore have no worthwhile opinion.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I am sure
you are not interested in my opinions. What makes you
think I would be interested in yours? You are the ones
who immediately started in with your condemnations. What
do you expect, when you condemn someone before you
really know anything about them? A pox on judgmental
hypocrites like yourself. That's just what this world needs,
a bunch of self-righteous perverted sickos who go around
condemning others because they don't do things exactly
the way they do them. This would be funny, if it were not
so sad.
> But, of course, ignoring safewords or requests to stop
> is mild.
It all depends. Judging from the discussion here, quite
a lot of you don't always use safe words. You remind
me of my condo president who had the manager of my
condo send me a violation letter week after week, warning
me not to use soap in the public shower by our pool. Then
one day, I caught the condo president and one of the
directors (my other arch enemy) together naked in the
shower, flagrante delicto. Both were caught soaping
themselves with a bar of soap. When I asked them why
they could use soap, and I couldn't, their faces turned
red and they flustered, "We know how to use soap, and
you don't." I see those who don't use safe words here
are the experts, and I am not, because I am not a member
of your little clique.
> As is rape--forcing unwanted sexual contact on a person.
Not exactly true. This is a very foolish oversimplification
for someone who feels they are expert enough to
criticize and judge others. A lot people are conflicted
when it comes to sex. Some females (and some males)
want to be raped. Some females what to be forced into
having "unwanted" sexual contact. If you don't know this
you are pretty ignorant for someone involved in bdsm.
The human mind is complex, and people can be of two
minds at once. This is especially true when it comes to
sex, and when it comes to females and sex. The prefrontal
cortex (also known as the ego), the thalamus and the
hypothalamus can be repulsed by sex, and not desire
sexual contact, but the amygdala (also, known as the devil,
the id, and the seat of the visceral appetites) may crave it.
People drink alcohol to deactivate the prefrontal cortex.
This gives the amygdala more control over the person's
behavior. If a female has had traumatic sexual experiences
in the past, she may be emotionally repulsed by sex. This
repulsion is located in the thalamus and hypothalamus.
At the same time she is repulsed by sex, she may crave it.
This craving comes from the amygdala. People can at the
same time want and not want something.
I once lived with a girl, who got "raped" on average once
a month, and each time she was raped she would go
to the rape crisis center and make out a police report.
She would constantly put herself places where she knew
she would get raped. She would hang-out with bikers
and drug dealers. She would act childishly innocent,
but subtly seductive. She would get drunk, then sleep
naked on the beach. She would go to bars in very
seductive outfits and act seductively, then drink so
much she could no longer fend off advances. She
worked as a stripper. Do I need to tell you what kind
of sex she liked?
She was small, but she could be fierce. She would put
up a fight like ten men. It was difficult for me to subdue
her without getting hurt or hurting her. She would
wildly flail her arms and legs. Her biggest complaint
against me was I didn't fight her hard enough. There
is one way for a man to rape a female who is all out
fighting, and that is by holding her legs up against
your chest and over your shoulders. You can than
use your weight and your chest to force her legs back
up against her chest and apart. We used to have 36
hour "love" making sessions. But we never ended up
with the kind of bruises and black eyes the couple who
lived on top of us always had. We thought they used
to get into fights. Only latter did I learn, it happened
during their "love" making sessions. Then there were
times I would cover her with chocolate syrup and turn
her into a cake complete with whipped cream on her
breasts, topped with maraschino cherries.
Anyway, I only play with females who have a strong
desire to be raped and tortured. And believe me, they
are out there. The crazier they are, the better I like
them.
--alt torture
Alt torture
inn...@prometheus.frii.com wrote:
> In many Western countries it is impossible to contract
> out of certain things, one being that you if you sign a
> contact selling yourself into slavery it cannot be enforced.
This is true.
> In England the Spanner case showed that you cannot
> consent to 'bodily harm' and even if you do, the state
> can still prosecute. Don't you find such 'scripts' a bit
> limiting?
The Spanner case is unique to England. In the US, every
state has different laws, that is why it is important to have
a criminal defense attorney in the specific state in question
research the law.
The issue of "bodily harm" comes into play in the US, also,
to some degree. It would be hard to defend a legal consent
form, where one party agreed to great bodily harm. Such
a clause ***might*** very well be tossed out by a judge.
Even if a state prohibits the infliction of "bodily harm,"
one cannot really know what is permitted or not permitted
without doing careful research. A Lexus-Nexus search
for bodily harm would turn up all cases which mention
this phrase for each individual state.
I don't see whipping someone as infliction of bodily harm,
unless there is permanent damage. Unless such a statute
outlawing bodily harm was narrowly written or interpreted,
it could be found unconstitutional for being too vague or
overly broad.
And mere infliction of bodily harm is at most a misdemeanor.
In my state, I don't have to worry that what I do would be
considered bodily harm. I've researched the law for my state.
Moreover, if the top has a videotape, the bottom is not likely to
pursue him on misdemeanor charges. She would likely suffer
more embarrassment from the exposure of the videotape than
he would suffer from being found guilty.
But the greatest benefit a consent form offers is protection
against charges like rape, sodomy (where it is not illegal
unless there is no consent), kidnapping and false imprisonment.
These are crimes where consent is clearly an issue.
There are a constellation of serious crimes a top can be
charged with. It is almost certain that a consent form would
prevent such charges from being filed, and such charges are
the ones a top really needs to fear. These are charges to
which a defendant might plead guilty, even if they felt they
were innocent, just to avoid the slim possibility of a conviction.
It is tough to persuade a defendant to go to trial, if the defendant
knows there is any possibility that by going to trial they might
never see the light of day. It is much easier to take a plea.
Many defendants plead guilty to crimes they believe they are
innocent of, because they don't want to face the draconian
consequences of an unfavorable verdict. The state knows this
and often overcharges just to get that plea.
With a consent form present, the state would have a much
tougher time overcharging. Also, these serious charges
require a considerable amount of bail, which one way or
other is going to be costly to a defendant. Some defendants
just plead guilty because they can't afford bail, and sitting
in jail for a year would cost them their business and their
home.
On the other hand, I don't know if all subs who would sign
such a consent form would realize what they are getting into.
For some reason people don't take legal contracts very
seriously. An unscrupulous Dom could use his power to
get a sub to sign a form that allows the Dom to do a lot
more than the sub really expects. So I don't really know if
I am doing the world a favor by sharing this information
with the crazies that inhabit these nether realms.
Best regards,
alt torture
Alt torture
> Well, the original ad said
> "Like "Mr. politically incorrect," I do not employ safe
> words, though I am careful not to take pain beyond a
> certain point. Part of my expertise is knowing just how
> much pain a subject can safely take, mentally. A lot of
> "experts" and edge players will say this is impossible,
> that without safewords it is easy to go too far. In
> general, this may be true, but I am not typical."
>
> Which doesn't sound much like "I do exactly as told".
>
> SilverOz
I also said I do not break the law. Apparently, you have
selective reading.
I don't do exactly as told. A "victim" is not going to
command a rapist during a rape. I do not, however,
exceed certain ***very*** specific prescribed limits
which are set down in advance in a legal notarized
consent form. The notarized signature is important
for two reasons. One, so the "victim" can't later claim
it was obtained under duress while she tied-up and
being tortured. Two, so she can't later claim the
signature is not hers. Some people can change
their handwriting.
Any person can claim they uttered a safe word, when,
in truth, they did not. A consent form is for my benefit,
not my "victims." I don't want any possibility of a "victim"
shouting after a rape, that it was not consensual, or that
I did something that I was not legally authorized to do.
It is one thing to ignore the words that come out of
subs or "victims" mouth during a session, it is quite
another to ignore words that come out of her mouth
before a session starts. If I don't get permission in
the first place to do something, I don't do it. Otherwise,
I would be breaking the law. And I already said, I
don't break the law, nor do I come close to breaking
the law.