Back to school
MarjiG
Yesterday I got the supplies list for my 3rd grader, so it was off to shop.
(Despite the certainty that we'll get a new list for each of them either at the
open house Sunday or on Tuesday. I got the 1st grade list at the end of last
year, along with most of the supplies as a gift from the teacher.
Here are this year's lists:
3rd Grade
Notebook paper (wide ruled)
#2 pencils (no gel pens)
box of tissues
hi-liters
scissors
2 glue sticks
5 2-pocket folders
post-it notes
box of 24 crayons
box of 8 washable markers
box of 12 colored pencils
pencil box (should be able to fit in desk)
pocket size dictionary
$4.00 for Weekly Reader
NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
1st grade
1 bookbag
1 folder with pocket at bottom (not sides) for papers
2 pencils every day
1 box of 8 crayons (basic colors only)
1 bottle of Elmer's glue
1 liquid soap dispenser or refill
1 box of reguar size Kleenix
1 box of ziploc bags -- pint, quart, or gallon
1 roll of paper towels
-Marjorie
Mom to Sarah (8.5) and Carys (6!)
LFortier
Friday we get to go meet the new teacher at open house.
Here's our 2nd grade list:
3 glue sticks (she'll probably use more like 10 over the course of the year)
blunt scissors
crayons (box of 24 or less)
1 dozen #2 pencils (we bought a package of Scooby Doo pencils - I have a very
happy kid)
package of erasers
2 packages wide ruled notebook paper
I'm certain, like Marjorie, that we'll get a longer list after school starts,
since this once doesn't even include the standard box of kleenex!!
Lesley
Tamex
>NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
--
Tamex
"When I think back to all the crap I learned in high school,
it's a wonder I can think at all."
**remove Tricky Dick to reply by e-mail**
Rosalie B.
>On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:40:07 EDT, mar...@aol.com (MarjiG) wrote:
>
>
>>NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
>
>Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
I didn't want the kids I taught to have them because they were always
messy. I either wanted a bound notebook so that the papers couldn't
fall out, or an ordinary duotang folder.
grandma Rosalie
Sarah
: On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:40:07 EDT, mar...@aol.com (MarjiG) wrote:
: >NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
: Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
My guess would be because of the Velcro. Teachers *hate* velcro, if my
memories of elementary school serve me correctly. :-)
Sarah
--
One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well.
Virginia Woolf, _A Room of One's Own_
Marcy Thompson
>I find it far more practical as a parent to buy my kids the economy
>binders at Staples for a buck and then I buy a variety of color of 2
>pocket folders while they're on sale for 10 per dollar. In fact, I have
>about 40 or so right now (I have four kids - 2 bio, 2 step) because
>round about November they'll need new folders. Come February and late
>April they'll need new folders. Why should I pay $3 for a pack of 10
>three or four more times this school year when I can buy three times as
>much now for the same price and put them aside. It also avoids the "I
>forgot! Mr. Smith told us we have to have new folders by tomorrow
>morning or we'll get marked down 10 points...." panic that sends us out
>to the 24 hour inconvenience store in downtown Boston to pay even more
>because it's 9:30 at night and the stores with the semi-reasonable
>prices are closed.
I'm changing the subject here a little bit. On one hand, I think
it's great to be frugal. On the other hand, I think it's important
for kids to learn to track their own requirements. "I forgot...."
should (in my opinion) galvanize the parent into action only if
it's really big deal. Getting marked down 10 points is a minor
consequence, and is one I would be likely to let a child suffer.
This is the same philosophy that prevents me from bringing lunch
to a child who left hers on the counter (although I break that
rule for a diabetic neice who sometimes stays with me). But I
did bring underwear once to a 7-year-old who "forgot to put it on"
since the school was saying she had to sit in the office until
she was properly dressed.
At some point (and first grade is probably not that point), I
allocate a budget for the year's supplies (well, I started with
a shorter period of time). I try to make the budget adequate to
cover everything, plus a few special items, but not enough to
allow for all the themed stuff, high tech options and latest
cool things. By fourth grade, they knew enough to buy extra folders
at the cheap time of year, so they would have money for new ones
when the old ones wore out, and not have to buy them out of their
allowance.
I don't remember how old Karla's kids are, so I am not specifically
talking about her choices. I just cringe whenever I think of running
around in the middle of the night because someone "forgot". There's
no incentive to learn to remember if I always fix what's forgotten.
So I don't.
Marcy
--
Marcy Thompson
ma...@squirrel.com
Kevin or Christine Derhak
you for posting your list -- we don't start for 4 more weeks so
I will get a head start!
What is a Trapper Keeper?
Chris
mom to three.
Banty
>Tamex (ta...@RICHARDNIXONfrontiernet.net) wrote:
>: On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:40:07 EDT, mar...@aol.com (MarjiG) wrote:
>
>
>: >NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
>
>: Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
>
>My guess would be because of the Velcro. Teachers *hate* velcro, if my
>memories of elementary school serve me correctly. :-)
>
>Sarah
OK, c'mon, somebody....
....what the hey is a "TRAPPER KEEPER"?
Banty
Claire Petersky
>
>> It's that time again, school starts here on Tuesday.
I am now covering my ears, and repeating loud enough so I can't
hear you guys: "School is *not* beginning in four weeks. School
is not beginning in four weeks. School is not..."
First, I dk where you guys live. Some place probably hot, where
they'd rather have the kids inside for A/C rather out in the hot
sun. We don't a true summer here usually until mid-July (Seattle
area) and often September is the nicest month, and I feel sorry
for kids having to go back right after Labor Day when the days
are all pleasant and sunny.
Second, summer time is really my vacation, even though I don't
work any few hours. But having the kids in extended care Day
Camp means that I can ride my bike to work when I want, go and
come back from work when I want, AND the kids adore day camp,
and are all grumpy if I come when it's over for the regular kids
at 3:00 because they are having so much fun. During the school
year, I'm tied to the school for day care (I work part time).
During the summer, I never have to beg someone to take care of
my kids because I have an early meeting or have to stay late.
Begging and apologizing adds so much frigging stress to my life.
Third, we stop all kid-type activities for the summer, so
there's no gymnastics, no piano lessons, no Camp Fire etc. so I
don't have to schlepp them around or plan out Camp Fire meetings.
I adore the summer, I dread September, and I'm going to resume
covering my ears and chanting now...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
MarjiG
>As a woman who did her time in a second grade room (and is hoping for a
>library aide position at the school), I can tell you that teachers pull
>an awful lot out of their own resources. One of my son's teachers used
>to an entire display case of things like folders and single subject
>notebooks because she knew half the kids in the class would have the
>latest, coolest high-tech stuff while the other half were lucky to get
>an older sibling's left overs. It helped keep the focus on classroom
>and away from who had (or didn't have) what.
>
>*sigh* I still think of the old bumper sticker that asked wouldn't it
>be nice if schools and teachers got all the money they needed and the
>airforce had to hold a bake sale to fund another bomber. In an ideal
>world, this stuff wouldn't be an issue...too far this world is far from
>ideal.
In article <BeBi5.727$hP6....@newshog.newsread.com>, ma...@squirrel.com
(Marcy Thompson) writes:
>
>At some point (and first grade is probably not that point), I
>allocate a budget for the year's supplies (well, I started with
>a shorter period of time). I try to make the budget adequate to
>cover everything, plus a few special items, but not enough to
>allow for all the themed stuff, high tech options and latest
>cool things. By fourth grade, they knew enough to buy extra folders
>at the cheap time of year, so they would have money for new ones
>when the old ones wore out, and not have to buy them out of their
>allowance.
>
I know that the teachers spend a huge amount of their own money on things
for the kids and the classroom. My complaints aren't really with the teachers
but with the system. If my daughters only give me 4 days notice that they need
something special, I'd be inclined to follow the 'too bad, should have planned
ahead' path. Unfortunately, they couldn't have planned ahead that is all the
notice they got.
(And they got that much because I made a point of going to the store to see if
the list was posted, otherwise I'd only have gotten the list Sunday at 2:00
PM.)
This isn't a set up that is helpful to teaching budgeting, or comparison
shopping. And if I get the additional lists I'm expecting, I'll have to make
another rush trip.
At least clothes shopping went easier this year than some. Once I got past the
fact that the style this year is the same as when I was a kid.
MarjiG
<cpetersk...@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
> am now covering my ears, and repeating loud enough so I can't
>hear you guys: "School is *not* beginning in four weeks. School
>is not beginning in four weeks. School is not..."
You're right about that, we're down to our last 4 _days_. Some districts
started last week.
>
>First, I dk where you guys live. Some place probably hot, where
>they'd rather have the kids inside for A/C rather out in the hot
>sun. We don't a true summer here usually until mid-July (Seattle
>area) and often September is the nicest month, and I feel sorry
>for kids having to go back right after Labor Day when the days
>are all pleasant and sunny.
>
North Carolina. But I don't know that it is based on heat, rather that starting
then allows Christmas break to fall at the end of the semester. It also lets
the state-mandated end of grade tests be actually at the end of the grade
instead of a month before.
We moved here from the Seattle area and I was rather surprised at the schedule.
I'm just glad we didn't try to time our move for summer break, only to get
here and find school had already started.
School did get out before Memorial Day, so it evens out fairly well. Summer is
shorter than it was when I was a kid, but there are more days off during the
year.
LFortier
Frankly, NC is so miserable in August that as long as the schools are air
conditioned, which most are now, they might as well be there.
We had a *very* short summer, 9 weeks only, because of an extra 6 days tacked on
in June to make up for all the snow days we missed in January.
Lesley
Tamex
A three-ring binder with a velcro flap to close it, basically. It
also comes with three-hole-punched folders to keep papers in. They
were all the rage in the mid-1980's, IIRC.
Vonnie
news:398a4049...@news.primenet.com...
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:40:07 EDT, mar...@aol.com (MarjiG) wrote:
>
>
> >NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
>
> Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
Aussie translation required: What are trapper keepers (my mind
boggles)...
--
Regards,
Vonnie (Australia)
(Isabella Claire born 1st July 1999)
MarjiG
ta...@RICHARDNIXONfrontiernet.net (Tamex) writes:
>>....what the hey is a "TRAPPER KEEPER"?
>
>A three-ring binder with a velcro flap to close it, basically. It
>also comes with three-hole-punched folders to keep papers in. They
>were all the rage in the mid-1980's, IIRC.
>
And yes they still sell them, along with notebooks with zipper closures etc.
Don't
buy such things unless you know they are acceptible.
MarjiG
<the_fo...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>We're in NC too. Where I grew up and my mom still is the kids went back on
8/1.
>Frankly, NC is so miserable in August that as long as the schools are air
>conditioned, which most are now, they might as well be there.
My kids are starting this year in a brand new school building, we see the
inside
for the first time Sunday.
>
>We had a *very* short summer, 9 weeks only, because of an extra 6 days tacked
>on in June to make up for all the snow days we missed in January.
Fortunately, I live in a county that planned in just enough snow days.
I think our summer managed to be 10 weeks. I like having extra
breaks during the year, but I have a job that accomodates such
things.
MarjiG
<von...@mpx.com.au> writes:
>> >NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
>>
>> Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
>
>Aussie translation required: What are trapper keepers (my mind
>boggles)...
>
Notebooks that come with pockets to put papers in. They are big, I think they
are tri-fold, and they have a velcro closure.
The pictures here don't give the full effect:
http://eshop.meadweb.com/cgi-bin/meadweb.storefront
I also found a reference to them in a 'You know you're an 80s child' list
although I'm pretty sure they came along before that.
http://www.megsplace.com/TimeWarp/child.html
clem...@hotmail.com
ma...@squirrel.com (Marcy Thompson) wrote:
> I'm changing the subject here a little bit. On one hand, I think
> it's great to be frugal. On the other hand, I think it's important
> for kids to learn to track their own requirements. "I forgot...."
> should (in my opinion) galvanize the parent into action only if
> it's really big deal. Getting marked down 10 points is a minor
> consequence, and is one I would be likely to let a child suffer.
>
In our house,the children are allowed one "I forgot" a month. It can be
used for lunches, sports equipment, homework, whatever. I instituted
that way back when my oldest started school and was always forgetting
things.
Marijke
mom to Matthew (april 87), Anne (feb 89) and Kevin (sept 91)
--
my fun:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/2716
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
clem...@hotmail.com
summer, 9 weeks only, because of an extra 6 days tacked on
> in June to make up for all the snow days we missed in January.
>
Wow, nine weeks is short? LOL
We get all of July and most, if not all, of August off with one week in
June.
In Quebec, the school year starts around labour day and ends,
officially for students on June 23rd and our first official holiday of
the summer is June 24th, a stat holiday in this province. High school
(from grade 7 to 11) students usually get out earlier to study for and
write exams but the last exam must be written by June 23rd (or the 22nd
if the 24th falls on a weekend). The school year cannot extend beyond
the 23rd and that causes some problems as during the year of our ice
storm when some schools were closed for up to two weeks (my kids missed
a week). There was some very creative rescheduling with the ped days
in order for the students not to miss their March break.
The students must have 180 school days, some boards put one or two snow
days in, some don't. When I went to school, we were guaranteed at least
two snow storms a year that would cause school to close, I think that
in my kids' nine years in school, they've had *one* day that schools
were closed due to snow. My son's private high school had a snow day
that wasn't used so they gave them a snow day in May. The kids were,
how shall we say, happy? :o)
Christmas break is two weeks, one week march break, ped. days sprinkled
throughout the year. I like the schedule as school lets out before it
gets too hot (although we've had years that it has been scorching in
June) and gets back in as autumn cools us down. There are no air
conditioned public schools, the buildings are too old to install them
and there is really no need for it. The high schools do offer summer
school for those who fail the academic year but the kids and teachers
have to sweat it out.
Marijke
Mom to
Marcy Thompson
> ma...@squirrel.com (Marcy Thompson) wrote:
>> I'm changing the subject here a little bit. On one hand, I think
>> it's great to be frugal. On the other hand, I think it's important
>> for kids to learn to track their own requirements. "I forgot...."
>> should (in my opinion) galvanize the parent into action only if
>> it's really big deal. Getting marked down 10 points is a minor
>> consequence, and is one I would be likely to let a child suffer.
>
>In our house,the children are allowed one "I forgot" a month. It can be
>used for lunches, sports equipment, homework, whatever. I instituted
>that way back when my oldest started school and was always forgetting
>things.
What a great idea! I wish I had thought of that....
Robin Netherton
: I also found a reference to them in a 'You know you're an 80s child' list
: although I'm pretty sure they came along before that.
No, I think they're indeed an 80s thing. I graduated from high school in
the late 1970s and I never heard the term "Trapper Keepers" till now. Over
the years I've seen oversize notebooks that close in a variety of ways,
but I didn't know they were seen as a specific type of item with a name,
and we certainly didn't use them in elementary school.
And I know we didn't have Velcro accessories when I was a kid (oh, ouch,
doesn't *that* sound old and crochety!).
We're off for school supplies later today, I think. I've made a point of
stocking up on likely things on sales, and using school supplies to round
out Internet orders of office supplies ("let's see, I need $1.63 to meet
the requirements of this e-coupon -- two school glue bottles should do
it..."). So we've got the glue, scissors, washable markers, crayons, and
kleenex. Now it's just pencils, a spiral notebook, and sandwich-size
ziploc bags -- I'm sure not sending in one of my mammoth economy-size
boxes of *those*.
He also needs to take $1 for a computer disc, and a magazine. I'm not sure
what kind of magazine, so I'll have to ask at Meet-the-Teacher night. If
the purpose is to cut out pictures, I doubt they'll want back copies of
scholarly or medical journals (which I wouldn't send anyway), and I won't
part with my Consumer Reports. I wonder if the Economist would work? Those
seem to pile up around here...
--Robin
Rosalie B.
>MarjiG <mar...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>: I also found a reference to them in a 'You know you're an 80s child' list
>: although I'm pretty sure they came along before that.
>
>No, I think they're indeed an 80s thing. I graduated from high school in
>the late 1970s and I never heard the term "Trapper Keepers" till now. Over
>the years I've seen oversize notebooks that close in a variety of ways,
>but I didn't know they were seen as a specific type of item with a name,
>and we certainly didn't use them in elementary school.
I had to specify that the kids NOT buy them in my middle school
classes. I taught middle school from 1977 to 1985.
I didn't like them because it was hard to put the papers in the
folders without taking them out of the looseleaf binder, so they just
jammed them in any old way. I wanted the papers secured in the
binders. Also I thought it was a waste of money. I asked for very
few things for my class, and I still had complaints about how
expensive it was.
For the record, in addition to pencil, pen, and paper, I wanted a
bound composition book, a looseleaf notebook, a metric ruler, and at
least one duotang folder.
grandma Rosalie
MarjiG
supplies. The revised lists:
3rd grade
glue
scissors
#2 pencils
2 red checking pens
lined paper - wide ruled
3 2-pocket folders
pack of 3x5 index cards
3 subject notebook
3x5 notebook
2 yellow hi-lighters
Kleenix
Paper towels
$4.00 supply fee
$3.75 Fee for assignment book
$4.00 Weekly Reader fee
No Trapper Keepers please.
1st grade
1 bookbag
1 folder with pocket at bottom (not sides) for papers
2 pencils every day
1 box of 8 crayons (basic colors only)
1 bottle of Elmer's glue
1 liquid soap dispenser or refill
1 box of reguar size Kleenix
1 box of ziploc bags -- pint, quart, or gallon
1 roll of paper towels
scissors
glue sticks
colored pencils
$4.00 Materials fee
$9.00 Cooking fee
In article <20000803203828...@nso-bd.aol.com>, mar...@aol.com
(MarjiG) writes:
And, of course, each teacher had classroom "Wish Lists" posted.
Dawn Price
>
> Well, we've been to the open house, and sure enough, now need more/
> different supplies.
Our list is shorter this year than last. Last year we had two boxes
of kleenex, 5 different-colored folders, crayons (24 or less), a dozen
pencils, 2 glue sticks and a pair of scissors.
This year, for second grade:
1 box of 16 crayons
1 bottle glue
1 school box
1 box kleenex (fewer sneezes in 2nd grade???)
1 dozen pencils (#2)
Then again, our book fee was $20 *plus* we had to buy a planner that
looks suspiciously like a fund-raiser for the school (but which was
required) at $4.
This is an inner-city school. I wonder how parents of multiple kids
who live in the low-income neighborhood (we live in a higher-income
outskirt area) manage the $24 per plus supplies.
Oh, and our "no" list insluded pencil sharpeners, trapper keepers
(never noticed that before...), mechanical pencils, pens and toy
supply items.
Henry wonders what a school box is. I have such fond memories of
choosing mine each year! (Hmmm... Brady Bunch, Partridge Family,
Here Come the Brides or Monkees...?)
-Dawn
Dating herself with that last reference...
Rich Churcher
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:40:07 EDT, mar...@aol.com (MarjiG) wrote:
>
>
> >NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
>
> Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
And, more importantly, what's a "trapper keeper"?
Inquiring minds want to know.
--
| Cheers, | uin: 6443250 |
| Rich Churcher, RN | e-mail: chur...@ihug.com.au |
Tamex
Sometimes it seems that even though they sell all this school supply
stuff in July and August, you might as well wait until school starts
and see what the teacher wants. IIRC, the reason I got a Trapper
Keeper in 4th grade was because some teacher scared us by stating her
extreme pet peeve against spiral notebooks on the first day of school!
("Mom! I need a three-ring binder by tomorrow!") And, no, upper
elementary teachers in that school saw no reason to send lists of
supplies before school started...you were just supposed to read their
minds, I guess.
Lee
>
>Tamex (ta...@RICHARDNIXONfrontiernet.net) wrote:
>: On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:40:07 EDT, mar...@aol.com (MarjiG) wrote:
>
>
>: >NO TRAPPER KEEPERS
>
>: Do they still sell these? Why are they banned, anyway?
>
>memories of elementary school serve me correctly. :-)
I remember teachers complaining about the volley of snaps from a
classroom full of 3-ring binders, but my only memory of Velcro from
my elementary school days was seeing it demonstrated on "I've Got A
Secret" as a miracle product that might someday be used to help
astronauts walk in space stations.
We never had to bring any supplies until at least the third grade.
I noticed in the local Target store that the posted shopping lists
started at the fourth grade.
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> Sometimes it seems that even though they sell all this school supply
> stuff in July and August, you might as well wait until school starts
> and see what the teacher wants. IIRC, the reason I got a Trapper
> Keeper in 4th grade was because some teacher scared us by stating her
> extreme pet peeve against spiral notebooks on the first day of school!
> ("Mom! I need a three-ring binder by tomorrow!") And, no, upper
> elementary teachers in that school saw no reason to send lists of
> supplies before school started...you were just supposed to read their
> minds, I guess.
We got our supply list sent with the final report card back in the
beginning of May.
(Shaina's in 3rd grade, and needs the standard stuff;
24 pencils
3 packets notebook paper
4 spiral notebooks
markers
colored pencils
highlighter
clip-board
school glue
scissors (not blunt tip)
gallon zip-lock bags
6 pocket folders
tissues
(One peeve of mine is that school supplies are, with few exceptions, put
into a class-wide kitty, for kids to take from as they need. This
discourages people from buying decent quality materials.)
Naomi
Rosalie B.
>Tamex <ta...@RICHARDNIXONfrontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>> Sometimes it seems that even though they sell all this school supply
>> stuff in July and August, you might as well wait until school starts
>> and see what the teacher wants. IIRC, the reason I got a Trapper
>> Keeper in 4th grade was because some teacher scared us by stating her
>> extreme pet peeve against spiral notebooks on the first day of school!
>> ("Mom! I need a three-ring binder by tomorrow!") And, no, upper
>> elementary teachers in that school saw no reason to send lists of
>> supplies before school started...you were just supposed to read their
>> minds, I guess.
>
>We got our supply list sent with the final report card back in the
>beginning of May.
You must have a very stable teacher population then, because each
teacher wants slightly different things and many times we wouldn't
know in advance who was going to be our kid's teachers. There are all
kinds of local stories in the paper about the shortage of teachers,
and how people without certificates are being hired because certified
teachers aren't available.
>
>(Shaina's in 3rd grade, and needs the standard stuff;
>24 pencils
>3 packets notebook paper
>4 spiral notebooks
I hated spiral notebooks - the kids kept tearing the pages out to hand
in and they looked so messy - plus they can never put the paper back
*into* the notebook.
>markers
>colored pencils
>highlighter
>clip-board
>school glue
>scissors (not blunt tip)
>gallon zip-lock bags
>6 pocket folders
>tissues
>
>(One peeve of mine is that school supplies are, with few exceptions, put
>into a class-wide kitty, for kids to take from as they need. This
>discourages people from buying decent quality materials.)
Do they require that you get your school supplies from the kitty?
grandma Rosalie
clem...@hotmail.com
I have the school supply lists for my three (we get them with the final
report cards) and although I get all that is required, I absolutely
REFUSE to send in 24 pencils at one time. My child does not need 24
pencils at once, I will give them three or four to start and they come
home and ask for more when they need. Same for the 12 pens they ask
for. They only need 2 pens as far as I am concerned and when they lose
their pen or it runs out of ink, they can go into the cupboard and get
another one.
As for the 14 exercise books, 20 duo-tangs (tung-locs), etc, that they
are supposed to have, I send those all in (not all 5 packages of
looseleaf paper though) but with their names very clearly written on
each and every one so their books cannot be taken for another child.
Now, i have no problem at all, none whatsoever, helping supply less
fortunate children however, do NOT ask me to buy 22 duotangs only to
have several of them go to other children. If all my daughter needs are
14 duotangs, then tell me to get those but add a note at the bottom of
the list that says something like "not all our children are able to
afford the necessary supplies. If you could send any extras in with
your child, it would be greatly appreciated." You know what? If there
was a note like that, I'd send in a whole extra box of pens, a whole
slew of duotangs, etc. But don't tell me to buy X number of items for
my child and then use them for someone else.
stepping off soapbox now
Marijke
mom to expensive going-back-to-school-whatever-happened-to-"free"-
education kids Matthew (april 1987), Anne (feb 1989) and Kevin (sept
1991)
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>We got our supply list sent with the final report card back in the
>>beginning of May.
> You must have a very stable teacher population then, because each
> teacher wants slightly different things and many times we wouldn't
> know in advance who was going to be our kid's teachers. There are all
> kinds of local stories in the paper about the shortage of teachers,
> and how people without certificates are being hired because certified
> teachers aren't available.
Around here lists are standardized. We won't know who Shaina's teacher is
until the day before school starts, but the supply lists are the same for
all.
>>4 spiral notebooks
> I hated spiral notebooks - the kids kept tearing the pages out to hand
> in and they looked so messy - plus they can never put the paper back
> *into* the notebook.
In past years the spiral notebooks seemed to have been used mostly for
journals, where the paper stays in the notebook.
>>(One peeve of mine is that school supplies are, with few exceptions, put
>>into a class-wide kitty, for kids to take from as they need. This
>>discourages people from buying decent quality materials.)
> Do they require that you get your school supplies from the kitty?
Yes. They don't want any students to have better supplies than the others.
(Before Shaina started kindergarten, and before I knew about the kitty, I
bought her a big box of personalized pencils. She wasn't permitted to
bring them to school....)
My other objection to the supply pool is that it seems like a waste of
time/effort/money. Why have every individual parent go out and buy a
bunch of supplies, retail, when the school district could just as easily
buy the same supplies, wholesale. (I was told to buy 24 pencils. Pencils
come in packages of 10. Rather than buying 3 individual packs of pencils
... multiplied by 400 students ... surely the school could just buy a few
hundred gross of pencils and be done with it! We pay an annual fee for
books, so it would make logical sense to just tack an extra $10-$15 onto
the book fee and have the school buy the supplies.)
Naomi
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> Then again, our book fee was $20 *plus* we had to buy a planner that
> looks suspiciously like a fund-raiser for the school (but which was
> required) at $4.
> This is an inner-city school. I wonder how parents of multiple kids
> who live in the low-income neighborhood (we live in a higher-income
> outskirt area) manage the $24 per plus supplies.
$20 book fee? Here the book fee is over $100 for lower elementary grades,
getting up to $200-$300 or more for high school. (If you can't afford it,
you can apply for a waiver.)
Naomi
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>> am now covering my ears, and repeating loud enough so I can't
>>hear you guys: "School is *not* beginning in four weeks. School
>>is not beginning in four weeks. School is not..."
> You're right about that, we're down to our last 4 _days_. Some districts
> started last week.
We're in Indiana. School starts in 2 1/2 weeks ... a week later than in
past years. (They'd dropped some of the days off during the school year
and are starting a week later.) We get out the first week of June. (Not
May, as I typoed in my other post...).
Naomi
MarjiG
<gmbe...@mindspring.com> writes:
> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>We got our supply list sent with the final report card back in the
>>beginning of May.
>
>You must have a very stable teacher population then, because each
>teacher wants slightly different things and many times we wouldn't
>know in advance who was going to be our kid's teachers.
Has school actually started for you yet? Getting the list doesn't count until
you know for sure that is what you need to have.
Schools can and should do a better job of standardizing the lists, or just have
a supply fee that covers most things. Or at least get it out a couple weeks in
advance, correctly.
MarjiG
>Do they require that you get your school supplies from the kitty?
Pretty much. Even if you had a place to store your own supplies you'd have to
be super diligent to keep them from being gathered up with the others. My
guess is they'd either get lost or the teacher would ask that they be taken
home. And, you would still have to put a set into the kitty.
MarjiG
>(One peeve of mine is that school supplies are, with few exceptions, put
>into a class-wide kitty, for kids to take from as they need. This
>discourages people from buying decent quality materials.)
Mine too. I figured out that with mine starting 1st and 3rd grade, I've
already purchased 5 pairs of scissors that went into the kitty and never came
out.
Hopefully the 2 for this year will be the exceptions. What happens to all
those
scissors anyway? You'd think there would be enough they could stop putting
them on the list every year.
I will admit that last year I deliberately skimped, not on quality but
quantity. Everywhere the list said, '1 package' I bought the smallest package I
could, because I knew we were moving mid-year, and I knew it was all going into
the class-wide black hole.
Sarah
Another thing I don't get...a book fee??? We never, ever had any such
thing, not even in high school when many of my textbooks were $100
college-level texts.
Sarah
--
One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well.
Virginia Woolf, _A Room of One's Own_
Lee
>Dawn Price <dawn...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>> Then again, our book fee was $20 *plus* we had to buy a planner that
>> looks suspiciously like a fund-raiser for the school (but which was
>> required) at $4.
>
>> This is an inner-city school. I wonder how parents of multiple kids
>> who live in the low-income neighborhood (we live in a higher-income
>> outskirt area) manage the $24 per plus supplies.
>
>$20 book fee? Here the book fee is over $100 for lower elementary grades,
>getting up to $200-$300 or more for high school. (If you can't afford it,
>you can apply for a waiver.)
This is the first I've ever heard of elementary students paying
for books. Do you at least get a credit on your state taxes?
Robyn Kozierok
Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>We won't know who Shaina's teacher is
>until the day before school starts, but the supply lists are the same for
>all.
Doesn't this drive the kids crazy? My kids like/need as much
foreknowledge of what is coming as possible, and not knowing who their
teacher would be until the day before school started would be very
stressful for them! (We get next year's teacher assignment on our
final report card.)
--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96)
Rosalie B.
>Rosalie B. <gmbe...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>>We got our supply list sent with the final report card back in the
>>>beginning of May.
>
>> You must have a very stable teacher population then, because each
>> teacher wants slightly different things and many times we wouldn't
>> know in advance who was going to be our kid's teachers. There are all
>> kinds of local stories in the paper about the shortage of teachers,
>> and how people without certificates are being hired because certified
>> teachers aren't available.
>
>Around here lists are standardized. We won't know who Shaina's teacher is
>until the day before school starts, but the supply lists are the same for
>all.
>
>>>4 spiral notebooks
>
>> I hated spiral notebooks - the kids kept tearing the pages out to hand
>> in and they looked so messy - plus they can never put the paper back
>> *into* the notebook.
>
>In past years the spiral notebooks seemed to have been used mostly for
>journals, where the paper stays in the notebook.
For that I used a bound notebook so the pages could not very easily be
torn out at all.
>> Do they require that you get your school supplies from the kitty?
>
>Yes. They don't want any students to have better supplies than the others.
> Why have every individual parent go out and buy a
>bunch of supplies, retail, when the school district could just as easily
>buy the same supplies, wholesale. (I was told to buy 24 pencils. Pencils
>come in packages of 10.
I think it would be better to have the parents buy 20 instead of 24.
What would they do if you only brought 20?
FWIW, it is probably not just as easy for the school to do this. In
spite of what you think. The school budget is not set for student
supplies (if it is a public school), and it would be difficult to add
onto it in that manner. The school boards have enough trouble trying
to get teacher's salaries.
Teachers have a lot of trouble getting classroom supplies, and often
lay out their own money because it just isn't available. (I'm talking
about bulletin board material, and project materials.) Some places
don't have enough paper for teachers to duplicate worksheets, or they
run out before the end of the year.
grandma Rosalie
Leah Adezio
Karla wrote in message <398AD0F8...@ntcorp.com>...
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>*sigh* I still think of the old bumper sticker that asked wouldn't it
>be nice if schools and teachers got all the money they needed and the
>airforce had to hold a bake sale to fund another bomber. In an ideal
>world, this stuff wouldn't be an issue...too far this world is far from
>ideal.
In a similar vein, has anyone seen the commercials for Office Depot where a
husband of a teacher is upset because she's spending her own money for
supplies for her classroom.....and then later, at the store, as she's paying
for her purchases, *he's* at another register, purchasing supplies for her
class, too....she sees him, silently mouths 'thank you' to him and he offers
a slightly sad, slightly sheepishly resigned shrug.
The point of the ads is that Office Depot, if you specify the school, will
donate a percentage of your purchase price to the school.
On one hand, it's terrific of Office Depot to sponsor a program like this
(and they're not the only retailer who has done it or is doing it now), but
it saddens me that it's *necessary* for them to do it -- or that teachers
have to spend their own money for basic classroom supplies.
Leah
Naomi Lynne Pardue
>>$20 book fee? Here the book fee is over $100 for lower elementary grades,
>>getting up to $200-$300 or more for high school. (If you can't afford it,
>>you can apply for a waiver.)
> This is the first I've ever heard of elementary students paying
> for books. Do you at least get a credit on your state taxes?
A credit for what? Given that the fee is a state fee, it wouldn't make
much sense to then give us a tax credit on our state taxes.
In Indiana you have to pay for book rental. (No, we don't get to keep the
books we pay for, except for a few workbooks.) It's just one of those
things. Every few years the legislature discusses dropping the fee, but it
never happens. (When I was growing up in New York we didn't have to pay
for books. But then we didn't have to supply tissues for the classroom
either...)
I'm of two minds. On the one hand, education IS supposed to be free, and
the book fee can be difficult for some people. (Though the waivier means
that if you really can't afford it, you will not have to go without an
education.)
On the other hand, I think it is sensible to make people responsible for
part of what they get. We tend to value more things that we pay for. And
if a family REALLY can't afford $100-$200 a year for school books, perhaps
they need to think long and hard about whether they can afford to raise
children at all. That $100 is a very tiny percentage of what it costs to
educate our children, and I don't begrudge it to the state.
Naomi
Tracy Cramer
>$20 book fee? Here the book fee is over $100 for lower
elementary grades,
>getting up to $200-$300 or more for high school. (If you can't
afford it,
>you can apply for a waiver.)
>
>
We're in Indiana too and our book fees for elementary are $75-80
or so, which I think is absolute highway robbery. I've seen the
books we're renting and they're not pretty. They're old (circa
1970), poorly written and have graffiti all over. For $80 a
year, I want to see books that are actually going to teach my
child something.
The other complaint I have about our schools is the supply
issue. Each year, I schlep out to Target/Walmart and buy loads
of supplies from the list I get. I turn around and I have to buy
more. Why, for heaven's sake, am I buying boxes of Kleenex this
year??
You cannot tell me that the $5K in property taxes that we pay
each year doesn't cover the school buying tissues!
I have bought countless pairs of scissors and *never* gotten
them back. They must be in that same place as pens and socks.
Frankly, I find it offensive that *I* have to buy supplies for
someone else's kid. I didn't tell people to have kids they
couldn't afford.
DH & I both went to school in Pennsylvania, where there was
never a textbook fee and our school supply list wasn't even
close to what these teachers ask for. Plus, our supplies were
*our* supplies. We also got excellent educations. If DH didn't
have a great job here and we didn't love this house, I'd be out
of Indiana faster than you can blink simply because I think the
educational system leaves a LOT to be desired.
Tracy
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maxine in ri
> We're in Indiana too and our book fees for elementary are $75-80
> or so, which I think is absolute highway robbery. I've seen the
> books we're renting and they're not pretty. They're old (circa
> 1970), poorly written and have graffiti all over. For $80 a
> year, I want to see books that are actually going to teach my
> child something.
For that sort of fee, they should be able to replace the books every
5-7 years, with gold-standard texts.
> The other complaint I have about our schools is the supply
> issue. Each year, I schlep out to Target/Walmart and buy loads
> of supplies from the list I get. I turn around and I have to buy
> more. Why, for heaven's sake, am I buying boxes of Kleenex this
> year??
Because the classroom as a whole goes through about 2 or 3 boxes
a week. The school rooms are either overheated or chilly,
poorly
ventilated, and filled with children who are passing cold germs
from one to another, mutating it a tad so that the first child
can pick up a new and improved version of the sniffles. The schools
will buy the least expensive bulk tissues they could, if they felt
it was their responsibility. My Mom used to send me with a
packet of tissues when I had a cold or runny nose. How many
folks do that today?
> You cannot tell me that the $5K in property taxes that we pay
> each year doesn't cover the school buying tissues!
I sure can. Who has the runny nose? The school, or the chi;dren?
And the teacher, compassionate person that we hope s/he is,
doesn't want to see runny noses being wiped on sleeves or
hands that will then pass the papers up to hir to share the
contagion.
> I have bought countless pairs of scissors and *never* gotten
> them back. They must be in that same place as pens and socks.
What did your child do with them?<g> Mine has the desk that
ate China. (and most of the rest of Asia, Antarctica and SA).
> Frankly, I find it offensive that *I* have to buy supplies for
> someone else's kid. I didn't tell people to have kids they
> couldn't afford.
THe teacher will have a hard time finding the time to teach
your child(ren) if s/he's constantly having to dig up supplies
for the children who have lost theirs or can't afford them.
Your remark rubs me the wrong way, since what's good for
our children doesn't stop at the door to the house, and teaching
sharing doesn't stop with teddybears at age 2.
> DH & I both went to school in Pennsylvania, where there was
> never a textbook fee and our school supply list wasn't even
> close to what these teachers ask for. Plus, our supplies were
> *our* supplies. We also got excellent educations. If DH didn't
> have a great job here and we didn't love this house, I'd be out
> of Indiana faster than you can blink simply because I think the
> educational system leaves a LOT to be desired.
When we went to school, even the kids from the poorer neighbor-
hoods were taught to take good care of their books, and school
systems seemed to have enough in the budgets to pay for supplies.
Now they have tons of mandates from the state that are unfunded
(the lastest in my neib is school breakfasts), and the $150 each
teacher gets from the PTO for classroom supplies doesn't cut it
for the 25 or so kids for a year. People sent their kids to
school
ready to learn: i.e. able to respect the teacher, whose punishments
were backed up by the parents, rather than criticized. I was appalled
when I went into my daughter's classes and found kids in the winter
with no coats, boots, or clean clothes, kids who sass the
teacher with
no care if they are punished, and the number of children with
IEP's
that the teacher has to deal with on hir own or with one aide.
/end rant/
maxine in ri
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> We're in Indiana too and our book fees for elementary are $75-80
> or so, which I think is absolute highway robbery. I've seen the
> books we're renting and they're not pretty. They're old (circa
> 1970), poorly written and have graffiti all over. For $80 a
> year, I want to see books that are actually going to teach my
> child something.
Where exactly do you live? If your school corporation isn't using your
bookrental fee to buy books, COMPLAIN. The books that Shaina has used are all
new (none more than 5 years old or so, and mostly newer.), and in good
shape.
> The other complaint I have about our schools is the supply
> issue. Each year, I schlep out to Target/Walmart and buy loads
> of supplies from the list I get. I turn around and I have to buy
> more. Why, for heaven's sake, am I buying boxes of Kleenex this
> year??
Because the kleenex get used up? I can understand complaints about having
to buy scissors every year, but pencils and tissues ARE disposable and get
used up.
> Frankly, I find it offensive that *I* have to buy supplies for
> someone else's kid. I didn't tell people to have kids they
> couldn't afford.
YOu don't. Not directly. You buy supplies for YOUR kid. (ANd if someone
else's kid uses the supplies that you bought, then you are using supplies
that someone else bought, so it balances out. I don't care for the 'kitty'
system, but everyone iS buying supplies. (And if they aren't, they are
wrong and selfish and cheating.)
> close to what these teachers ask for. Plus, our supplies were
> *our* supplies. We also got excellent educations. If DH didn't
> have a great job here and we didn't love this house, I'd be out
> of Indiana faster than you can blink simply because I think the
> educational system leaves a LOT to be desired.
At least some of your complaints seem to apply to your particular school
corportation, not to the state as a whole.
Naomi
cu...@op.net
> Frankly, I find it offensive that *I* have to buy supplies for
> someone else's kid. I didn't tell people to have kids they
> couldn't afford.
>
> never a textbook fee and our school supply list wasn't even
> *our* supplies.
So you think that people in PA can better afford their kids?
Is that the difference between what you experienced there and
what you're experiencing now? I highly doubt it.
To both you and Naomi, I'd say that you should remember that
some people have kids they can afford when they have them and
then bad things happen. What should these people do with
these kids they now can't afford -- make 'em drop out of
school and start working for their keep?
I am just starting my public school journey this fall when
my oldest child enters K, but I, for one and for now, am
happy to pay whatever taxes are needed to be sure that all the
kids in my school district, and perhaps state, have the books
and scissors their teachers feel they should have.
Every week in my rag of a local paper, people write letters
to the editor threatening to boot out school board members
if they increase the school budget, make what appear to some
to be petty improvements to the school ("when *I* was in
school all we had was..."), etc. School boards cannot ask
for "too much" from the taxpayers or they'll be maligned and
possibly voted out. Because lots of us automatically think
things like "why'd these people have kids in the first
place?!" Thus, you have to pay on an individual basis for
school supplies.
John Hascall
[..ad synopsis..]
>The point of the ads is that Office Depot, if you specify the school, will
>donate a percentage of your purchase price to the school.
>
>On one hand, it's terrific of Office Depot to sponsor a program like this
>(and they're not the only retailer who has done it or is doing it now), but
>it saddens me that it's *necessary* for them to do it -- or that teachers
>have to spend their own money for basic classroom supplies.
Where the heck is the PTA/PTO?
We (I'm our school's PTO treasurer) fund:
* classroom supplies (above the piddly amount they get from the central admin),
* playground equipment,
* fieldtrips,
* special assemblies,
* etc.
John
--
John Hascall (__) Shut up, be happy.
Software Engineer, ,------(oo) The conveniences you demanded
Acropolis Project Manager, / |Moo U|\/ are now mandatory.
ISU Academic IT * ||----|| -- Jello Biafra
John Hascall
>rob...@shell3.shore.net (Robyn Kozierok) wrote:
>
>> Doesn't this drive the kids crazy? My kids like/need as much
>> foreknowledge of what is coming as possible, and not knowing who their
>> teacher would be until the day before school started would be very
>> stressful for them! (We get next year's teacher assignment on our
>> final report card.)
>
>room. But obviously, sometimes the best you'll get is 'I'm getting the
>new teacher', when the room belongs to a retiring teacher.
David is in a one-unit-per-grade school, so it's no mystery
which class he will be in next year. Toward the end of the
year, they have a morning where every class shifts up one
room to meet next year's teacher (I assume the 6th grade
takes a trip to see the middle school).
LFortier
posts lists every year (in our limited experience). Before K, they mailed a
letter with your child's teacher assignment. Unfortunately, we got that
letter after the open house. Last year, they posted class lists on the web
site the week before school. (had to sign a permission slip for your child's
name to be posted.) This year, the lists are going up by the office this
Thursday afternoon before the Friday "meet your teacher" open house. I
suppose with some 1200 kids it takes all summer to divvy them out.
Lesley
Robyn Kozierok wrote:
> In article <8mmooa$10k$5...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
> Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >We won't know who Shaina's teacher is
> >until the day before school starts, but the supply lists are the same for
> >all.
>
> Doesn't this drive the kids crazy? My kids like/need as much
> foreknowledge of what is coming as possible, and not knowing who their
> teacher would be until the day before school started would be very
> stressful for them! (We get next year's teacher assignment on our
> final report card.)
>
Lee
>Lee <boy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>$20 book fee? Here the book fee is over $100 for lower elementary grades,
>>>getting up to $200-$300 or more for high school. (If you can't afford it,
>>>you can apply for a waiver.)
>
>> This is the first I've ever heard of elementary students paying
>> for books. Do you at least get a credit on your state taxes?
>
>A credit for what? Given that the fee is a state fee, it wouldn't make
>much sense to then give us a tax credit on our state taxes.
It's an expense that the state should be paying. Making the parents
pay it and then crediting it back to them would be one way to allow
the money to come out of the general fund instead of the education
budget.
It Arizona, you can get a tax credit of up to $200 to reimburse
fees paid for extra-curricular activities. If your child doesn't
happen to have any extra-curricular activities, or if you don't
even have a child, you can donate $200 towards the activities of
any school and get the credit. Maybe I should try to start a club
that meets after school to buy school supplies.
MarjiG
<gmbe...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>>>4 spiral notebooks
>>
>>> I hated spiral notebooks - the kids kept tearing the pages out to hand
>>> in and they looked so messy - plus they can never put the paper back
>>> *into* the notebook.
>>
>>In past years the spiral notebooks seemed to have been used mostly for
>>journals, where the paper stays in the notebook.
>
>For that I used a bound notebook so the pages could not very easily be
>torn out at all.
This strikes me as micro-management. I can understand specifying line
width, but it bugs me that I had to buy 3 different types of notebooks for
my 3rd grader.
Give the students a chance to learn on their own what works for them.
Lee
>Frankly, I find it offensive that *I* have to buy supplies for
>someone else's kid. I didn't tell people to have kids they
>couldn't afford.
I don't believe in Big Government, but I do believe that every
taxpayer should be paying for school supplies for every child.
The benefits of education to society in relation to the cost
is tremendous, but we continue to short-change ourselves.
Rosalie B.
I taught 6th to 9th grade. The students didn't have a clue even at
that age what worked for them. Especially in the 6th grade which was
a transition from elementary to middle. I doubt very much if most 3rd
graders would be able to figure out on their own 'what works'. I know
I wouldn't have been able to at that age, and I doubt that any of my
kids would either.
We had a team of 4 teachers (Science - me, Math, Social Studies, and
Language Arts aka English), and we got together and decided what we
wanted the kids to have so there wouldn't be any overlap. What we had
was one looseleaf notebook (NOT a trapper keeper) with a couple of
divider tabs and associated looseleaf paper. NO spiral bound books.
None (at the request of the Language Arts teacher - I didn't really
care). Some students got them anyway, which was a real pain.
I also asked for 1 to 4 duotang folders, only one of which was
required at the beginning of school, and could be reused if necessary.
They were keep to work on and hand in projects, and they used the
looseleaf paper. I also wanted them to have one bound composition
book to keep a journal in.
I also wanted a metric ruler, which seemed to be a real bone of
contention for some reason. Some parents thought this was an
unreasonable request.
We didn't (still don't AFAIK) have a book fee in MD, but we did
require the kids to buy PE uniforms (in middle and high school).
grandma Rosalie
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> To both you and Naomi, I'd say that you should remember that
> some people have kids they can afford when they have them and
> then bad things happen. What should these people do with
> these kids they now can't afford -- make 'em drop out of
> school and start working for their keep?
I am aware of that. I am also aware that SOME people have kids that they
can't afford, at the time they have them. There are many types of
government aid (welfare, waivers for book fees) that are available that,
ideally should be used only by those who need them unexpectedly, but are
often used by those who feel that they are entitled to them on a permanent
basis.
My only point was that it is not unreasonable to expect parents to take
some small responsibility for the costs of educating their children.
> I am just starting my public school journey this fall when
> my oldest child enters K, but I, for one and for now, am
> happy to pay whatever taxes are needed to be sure that all the
> kids in my school district, and perhaps state, have the books
> and scissors their teachers feel they should have.
As am I. My complaints have had nothing to do with taxes, or even book
fees, but only with the way supplies are purchased and distributed. (What
DOES happen to all those scissors?)
Naomi
MarjiG
>
>Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> Why have every individual parent go out and buy a
>>bunch of supplies, retail, when the school district could just as easily
>>buy the same supplies, wholesale. (I was told to buy 24 pencils. Pencils
>>come in packages of 10.
>
>FWIW, it is probably not just as easy for the school to do this. In
>spite of what you think. The school budget is not set for student
>supplies (if it is a public school), and it would be difficult to add
>onto it in that manner. The school boards have enough trouble trying
>to get teacher's salaries.
>
>
But you skipped part of what she said:
>
> We pay an annual fee for
>books, so it would make logical sense to just tack an extra $10-$15 onto
>the book fee and have the school buy the supplies.)
The parents are still paying for the supplies, we're just eliminating 800* cars
driving to the store, and actually _reducing_ the cost, since buying in bulk
_is_ less expensive. Spending someone else's money is not an excuse to spend
it unwisely.
* 800 cars, because they all have to make 2 trips, one for the things on the
list, and one for what the teacher really wants.
MarjiG
>I am just starting my public school journey this fall when
>my oldest child enters K, but I, for one and for now, am
>happy to pay whatever taxes are needed to be sure that all the
>kids in my school district, and perhaps state, have the books
>and scissors their teachers feel they should have.
But do you care at all how those taxes are used? That's my complaint,
not how much I'm paying, but that the money is being wasted. Whether
it is a tax, a fee, a fund-raiser, or a supplies list, I, my kids, the
teachers,
the school board, the PTA and anyone else who is spending the money
or using the stuff needs to do so responsibly. As an example, having
each child purchase scissors only to have them put into a class
scissors box encourages waste.
The teachers don't care, they'll just ask for more next year, it won't
come out of their supply budget. The parents buy cheap since
they won't get them back. The kids don't feel they own them,
so they don't take care of them. Then there is the added cost
of buying the scissors one pair at a time, and the added pollution
and squandering of time.
Multiply all that by the numerous requests that come home
not just at the beginning of the year, but all year long.
I don't care if they found the money under a rock, to waste it is wrong.
cu...@op.net
cu...@op.net
MarjiG wrote:
>
> In article <399002E0...@op.net>, cu...@op.net writes:
>
> >I am just starting my public school journey this fall when
> >my oldest child enters K, but I, for one and for now, am
> >happy to pay whatever taxes are needed to be sure that all
> >and scissors their teachers feel they should have.
>
> But do you care at all how those taxes are used? That's my
> complaint, not how much I'm paying, but that the money is
> being wasted. Whether it is a tax, a fee, a fund-raiser,
> or a supplies list, I, my kids, the teachers, the school
> board, the PTA and anyone else who is spending the money
> or using the stuff needs to do so responsibly. As an
> example, having each child purchase scissors only to have
> them put into a class scissors box encourages waste.
> The teachers don't care, they'll just ask for more next
> year, it won't come out of their supply budget.
yes, I do care how my tax money gets spent. My point was
that I suspect that schools would be pruchasing these
supplies for themselves if they were given the budget to
do it. The budget should then reflect the fact that X number
of scissors would make it to next year. I cannnot imagine
any other reason for such a weird system (having parents
supply, basically, a new pair of scisssors etc every year)
than that the school has not been adequately or appropriately
funded or that there's a screw-up in the way things are
budgeted. And I was noting that I think our general
unwillingness to adequately fund our schools is related to
this opinion expressed by two previous post-ers that the only
reason funds and supplies are needed is because all these
irresponsible people aren't providing for their offspring.
You know, when my husband and I started considering starting
our family and how our finances would be affected, we did
not budget for K to 12 education. As it turns out, thanks
to the growing American abandonment of and resentment toward
publicly funded K to 12 education, the schools may well
be so very crappy soon that we'll have to move our kids to
schools that we do indeed pay for out of pocket.
Rosalie B.
>In article <0qkuoss704ct3a1m1...@4ax.com>, "Rosalie B."
><gmbe...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>Naomi Lynne Pardue <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Why have every individual parent go out and buy a
>>>bunch of supplies, retail, when the school district could just as easily
>>>buy the same supplies, wholesale. (I was told to buy 24 pencils. Pencils
>>>come in packages of 10.
>>
>
>>FWIW, it is probably not just as easy for the school to do this. In
>>spite of what you think. The school budget is not set for student
>>supplies (if it is a public school), and it would be difficult to add
>>onto it in that manner. The school boards have enough trouble trying
>>to get teacher's salaries.
>>
>>
>But you skipped part of what she said:
>
>>
>> We pay an annual fee for
>>books, so it would make logical sense to just tack an extra $10-$15 onto
>>the book fee and have the school buy the supplies.)
I didn't think the annual fee for books was the same as the school
supplies, since we don't have such a thing here. I don't know how
that plays in the budget.
>
>The parents are still paying for the supplies, we're just eliminating 800* cars
>driving to the store, and actually _reducing_ the cost, since buying in bulk
>_is_ less expensive. Spending someone else's money is not an excuse to spend
>it unwisely.
>
>* 800 cars, because they all have to make 2 trips, one for the things on the
>list, and one for what the teacher really wants.
grandma Rosalie
Leah Adezio
John Hascall wrote in message <8mp0ba$erh$1...@news.iastate.edu>...
>Leah Adezio <slad...@nac.net> wrote:
> [..ad synopsis..]
>>The point of the ads is that Office Depot, if you specify the school, will
>>donate a percentage of your purchase price to the school.
>>
>>On one hand, it's terrific of Office Depot to sponsor a program like this
>>(and they're not the only retailer who has done it or is doing it now),
but
>>it saddens me that it's *necessary* for them to do it -- or that teachers
>>have to spend their own money for basic classroom supplies.
>
>Where the heck is the PTA/PTO?
>We (I'm our school's PTO treasurer) fund:
>* classroom supplies (above the piddly amount they get from the central
admin),
>* playground equipment,
>* fieldtrips,
>* special assemblies,
>* etc.
Our school has a very active PTO and we do provide funding for things
similar to what you mention....
What I was addressing was the issue of schools not seemingly being able to
provide *basic* school supplies -- crayons, scissors, paste, tissues for the
classroom and so on.
Our school district (at least for primary grades -- we'll find out how the
middle school handles supplies this year for the first time as our youngest
enters 5th grade this year -- our eldest is a special education student and
has been an out of district placement since the end of 4th grade) is one
that has been *very* good about providing basic supplies. All we have ever
been told to supply have been items like 'Your child will need a backpack
this year. Your child will need 3 folders labeled for the following
classes....and the occasional request for craft-related items (empty toilet
paper rolls, egg cartons, etc.).
We have never gotten a list of things that the children were supposed to
supply, except for pencils (which I purchase for them anyway). Last year,
when Daniel was in 4th grade, the school even supplied small assignment
books for the children (I'm assuming I'll have to provide it this year for
middle school).
When I was a child, we *never* had to provide our own supplies. The
classroom had its own pencils, erasers, crayons, markers, paper, paste, etc.
They were all provided.
And I still think it's a sad commentary of what America thinks is important
that we can provide money for (to use the cliche) another fighter plane but
can't make sure that our schools don't at least have the basic supplies for
educating students. It's sad that teachers are now pretty much *expected*
to pay for supplies out of their own pockets and that they have to plead
with PTOs and parents to help make sure all the children have the basics.
Leah
Christopher Biow
>Teachers have a lot of trouble getting classroom supplies, and often
>lay out their own money because it just isn't available. (I'm talking
>about bulletin board material, and project materials.) Some places
>don't have enough paper for teachers to duplicate worksheets, or they
>run out before the end of the year.
What additional fraction of a school budget would be required for fully
adequate classroom supplies of this sort? Given that the lists being
requested of parents here are on the order of tens of dollars, that should
be well under 1% of the typical US per-child school budget. If so, this may
be more a matter of a tradition that became institutionalized during the
"crunch" years of US education funding a couple of decades ago, rather than
the Way Things Have to Be. At least it may get parents somewhat into the
concept that they should be involved, rather than viewing education as
something that is someone else's responsiblity and capability, as far too
many of my acquaintance do.
But when it impacts things that the schools clearly *are* expected to
supply, such as copier paper, it sounds more like simple mismanagement.
Perhaps public school administrators are more occupied today with trying to
stay out of court.
Banty
<npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>I'm of two minds. On the one hand, education IS supposed to be free, and
>the book fee can be difficult for some people. (Though the waivier means
>that if you really can't afford it, you will not have to go without an
>education.)
>On the other hand, I think it is sensible to make people responsible for
>part of what they get. We tend to value more things that we pay for. And
>if a family REALLY can't afford $100-$200 a year for school books, perhaps
>they need to think long and hard about whether they can afford to raise
>children at all. That $100 is a very tiny percentage of what it costs to
>educate our children, and I don't begrudge it to the state.
>
>Naomi
Keep in mind that that $100 dollars is requested in September, when Scouts
and sports are also getting their fees of $60 or more apiece. A lot of
families dont' have the reserves for all that at once. And I dont' think
one should have a bankwad to apply for the right to raise a child.
Banty
Tracy Cramer
>For that sort of fee, they should be able to replace the books
every
>5-7 years, with gold-standard texts.
That's what I would think too. Plus, when I went to school, our
books were checked when we turned them in at the end of the
year. If they were written in, either we sat and erased every
pencil mark or we bought the book.
>Because the classroom as a whole goes through about 2 or 3
boxes
>a week. The school rooms are either overheated or chilly,
>poorly
>ventilated, and filled with children who are passing cold germs
>from one to another, mutating it a tad so that the first child
>can pick up a new and improved version of the sniffles. The
schools
>will buy the least expensive bulk tissues they could, if they
felt
>it was their responsibility. My Mom used to send me with a
>packet of tissues when I had a cold or runny nose. How many
>folks do that today?
Actually, I *do* make sure my children have tissues. I buy those
packs of little packs and they always have them when the weather
starts to change.
>I sure can. Who has the runny nose? The school, or the
chi;dren?
>And the teacher, compassionate person that we hope s/he is,
>doesn't want to see runny noses being wiped on sleeves or
>hands that will then pass the papers up to hir to share the
>contagion.
Sorry, I don't agree. The schools buy toilet paper...is that
going to be on next year's list? You know, who has the runny
butt? =)
I do not have a problem sending tissues to school for my
children's use. I have a major problem sending a box for
everyone's use because there are parents who just don't do it.
I also complain about having to buy snacks for the kindergarden
class once a month. It usually runs at least $5. They're in
school for 3 hours, for heavens sake! Take that time to teach
them, rather than have them snacking.
>What did your child do with them?<g> Mine has the desk that
>ate China. (and most of the rest of Asia, Antarctica and SA).
None of the scissors (or any school supplies for that matter)
have ever been returned to me. Even when we moved in the middle
of last school year! I had to buy supplies TWICE last school
year.
>THe teacher will have a hard time finding the time to teach
>your child(ren) if s/he's constantly having to dig up supplies
>for the children who have lost theirs or can't afford them.
Well, then if a child isn't prepared for class, he/she should be
sent to the principal's office or call his/her parent if he/she
needs something. Children need to be taught to be responsible
and prepared for class, rather than having the teachers
mollycoddle them.
>Your remark rubs me the wrong way, since what's good for
>our children doesn't stop at the door to the house, and teaching
>sharing doesn't stop with teddybears at age 2.
Hey, have the kids share the toys, or the playground equipment.
Don't ask me to fund someone else's school supplies because
their parents haven't done it for whatever reason. I don't ask
other kids to share their clothes with my kids.
>When we went to school, even the kids from the poorer neighbor-
>hoods were taught to take good care of their books, and school
>systems seemed to have enough in the budgets to pay for
supplies.
>Now they have tons of mandates from the state that are unfunded
>(the lastest in my neib is school breakfasts), and the $150
each
>teacher gets from the PTO for classroom supplies doesn't cut it
>for the 25 or so kids for a year. People sent their kids to
>school
>ready to learn: i.e. able to respect the teacher, whose
punishments
>were backed up by the parents, rather than criticized. I was
appalled
>when I went into my daughter's classes and found kids in the
winter
>with no coats, boots, or clean clothes, kids who sass the
>teacher with
>no care if they are punished, and the number of children with
>IEP's
>that the teacher has to deal with on hir own or with one aide.
Maxine, this is one area in which we are in complete agreement.
I'm constantly appalled at the way teachers are treated these
days; it's no wonder no one wants to be a teacher. It all starts
at home, too.
I'm so tired of hearing politicians say how important education
is, yadda, yadda, and yet, the schools don't have enough money
to get the necessary supplies.
All of these issues have made me seriously consider private
school, if for no other reason that to feel as though I'm
getting my money's worth.
Banty
>Leah Adezio <slad...@nac.net> wrote:
> [..ad synopsis..]
>>The point of the ads is that Office Depot, if you specify the school, will
>>donate a percentage of your purchase price to the school.
>>
>>On one hand, it's terrific of Office Depot to sponsor a program like this
>>(and they're not the only retailer who has done it or is doing it now), but
>>it saddens me that it's *necessary* for them to do it -- or that teachers
>>have to spend their own money for basic classroom supplies.
>
>Where the heck is the PTA/PTO?
>We (I'm our school's PTO treasurer) fund:
>* classroom supplies (above the piddly amount they get from the central admin),
>* playground equipment,
>* fieldtrips,
>* special assemblies,
>* etc.
>
>John
My PTA doesnt' do any of that. I still haven't figured out exactly what of
lasting value it does. Why I never went to any more than the first couple
of meetings. More ado about giving flowers to the departing PTA president
than anything substantive. I give my time to our Cub Scout pack instead -
every piece of effort goes to something for the boys.
My point is - it really depends on how the local PTA is.
Banty
John Hascall
...
>Every week in my rag of a local paper, people write letters
>to the editor threatening to boot out school board members
>if they increase the school budget, make what appear to some
>to be petty improvements to the school ("when *I* was in
>school all we had was..."), etc. School boards cannot ask
>for "too much" from the taxpayers or they'll be maligned and
>possibly voted out.
Thanks goodness that doesn't happen here (otherwise, I
probably wouldn't be running for the school board this fall :)
On the other hand we do have to deal with the state of Iowa's
*idiotic* school funding formula -- basically they scoop up all the
tax money and hand it out to the schools at X dollars per student.
(X about $4300 currently).
Apparently they are under the misconception that it costs the same
amount to school a child everywhere in the state. Wrong. Ames is,
by Iowa standards, a pretty expensive place to live, so we have to
pay our teachers much more than the East Wide Spot school district,
and then to top it off we're saddled with collective bargaining and
binding negotiation. The end result is of course:
Fixed Budget
------------ == N teachers
Fixed Salary
where N is always smaller than last year's number because
the X-per-student never seems to grow as fast as the salaries.
Even if we wanted to raise our taxes to pay our teachers better
and/or have more teachers we can't -- actually we wouldn't have
to raise them at all, all we'd need is to be able to keep what we
pay instead of having it subsidize all the piddly little rural
school districts around the state.
Banty
<npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>As am I. My complaints have had nothing to do with taxes, or even book
>fees, but only with the way supplies are purchased and distributed. (What
>DOES happen to all those scissors?)
>
>
>Naomi
Well, what happens to pens, for example? They get taken home by mistake,
other things come in their place as kids bring projects in and parents
provision them for last-minute details. Teacher may or may not have the
patience or level of organization to gather all the odds and ends for the
next year.
It's like the (Big Fat Corporation) pens that my Big Fat Corporation was
complaining about pilferage about. They would disappear. Well, at the
time this sort of petty pin-counting was going on, I was a volunteer at an
ambulance corps (Local VAC). I must admit I had BFC pens at home, and my
friends, who I had shopped with, eventually discovered BFC pens in their
purses. BFC pens found their way to local emergency rooms as I grabbed
whatever I had to fill get a signature on the run sheet, then run to the
next call. At the same time, LVAC pens were diffusing through my project
at BFC. Eventually, the same second line manager who had to reluctantly
tell us to count our pens, had a few LVAC pens in his possession. How he
got them, neither he or I knew exactly. But since "L" in local was a place
30 miles away, they must have originated with me.
It's just plain dumb to worry about scissors. Do you seriously expect a
teacher with 20+ kids to keep track of every little scissor?
(I remember a comedy routine about how church keys (can openers) would
always disappear, but wire hangers would accumulate in the closet. The
answer to the riddle - obviously church keys are the larval form of wire
coat hangers!)
Banty
Tracy Cramer
>I don't believe in Big Government, but I do believe that every
>taxpayer should be paying for school supplies for every child.
>The benefits of education to society in relation to the cost
>is tremendous, but we continue to short-change ourselves.
I'm sorry, I disagree. When you have a child, you know there are
going to be costs involved, all the way from the first hospital
bill to their college education (if you're footing that). School
supplies are a fact of life. If you can't pay for your kids
school supplies, clothes, etc., don't look to me to do it. We
already pay plenty of property tax as well as the other taxes on
my husband's salary. Last year, he paid around $30K in taxes,
when there are plenty of people around here who would be happy
to *make* $30K.
There are also taxpayers who don't have children and never will.
Why in the world should they be paying for any school supplies?
tracy
Leah Adezio
Banty wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:56:54 EDT, Naomi Lynne Pardue
><npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>As am I. My complaints have had nothing to do with taxes, or even book
>>fees, but only with the way supplies are purchased and distributed. (What
>>DOES happen to all those scissors?)
>>
>>
>>Naomi
[thar be snippage here]
>
>It's just plain dumb to worry about scissors. Do you seriously expect a
>teacher with 20+ kids to keep track of every little scissor?
How hard is it to have a basket with scissors in it? When it's time to use
them, the scissors are handed out. When the activity is done, the scissors
are collected back in the basket and the basket is put back on a shelf, or
supply closet in the classroom.
My aunt was a teacher for over 30 years. Her practice was to do this
(actually, this is how I remember scissors in a classroom being handled all
throughout grade school -- they were kept in a central place in the
classroom...not in students' desks). From the appearance of some of her
classroom scissors (and I know, because each August, I'd spend a day or two
helping her set up her classroom and preparing it for opening day in
September), she had the same scissors for *years*. :)
>
>(I remember a comedy routine about how church keys (can openers) would
>always disappear, but wire hangers would accumulate in the closet. The
>answer to the riddle - obviously church keys are the larval form of wire
>coat hangers!)
LOL! I wish that were true in *our* house. We're always on the prowl for
more hangers. I guess plastic hangers just don't multiply as well as metal
ones do. :)
Leah
MarjiG
<ba...@banet.net> writes:
>
>It's just plain dumb to worry about scissors. Do you seriously expect a
>teacher with 20+ kids to keep track of every little scissor?
>
Only when said teacher insists on collecting them all on day one, and putting
them in the group scissor box, from whence they are carefully doled out when
needed.
This probably makes sense for Kindergarten, but I do expect that the box would
end the year with most of the scissors still there and workable. Last year's
2nd grade class also did it, and while I didn't count them I can attest to the
fact that an adequate supply existed at year end. They weren't given back, so
can I safely assume that scissors were not on the 2nd grade supply list for
this year?
Leah Adezio
Tracy Cramer wrote in message
<187ae41f...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com>...
>Lee <boy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>I don't believe in Big Government, but I do believe that every
>>taxpayer should be paying for school supplies for every child.
>>The benefits of education to society in relation to the cost
>>is tremendous, but we continue to short-change ourselves.
>
>I'm sorry, I disagree. When you have a child, you know there are
>going to be costs involved, all the way from the first hospital
>bill to their college education (if you're footing that). School
>supplies are a fact of life. If you can't pay for your kids
>school supplies, clothes, etc., don't look to me to do it. We
>already pay plenty of property tax as well as the other taxes on
>my husband's salary. Last year, he paid around $30K in taxes,
>when there are plenty of people around here who would be happy
>to *make* $30K.
So, are you saying that poor children should just suck it up and suffer
because their parents might not be able to afford basic school supplies
because the school district doesn't get enough funding to supply the basics
to *every* child?
>
>There are also taxpayers who don't have children and never will.
>Why in the world should they be paying for any school supplies?
Um, maybe because there were taxpayers before them who paid taxes for
*their* education? Or because a well-educated society benefits *all*
citizens, whether they have children or not?
You're going to need services and educated people as you age. I don't know
about you, but when I'm old, I want to make sure that there are people who
are educated -- who become doctors and other professionals who are capable
and qualified to help care for me if I can't care for myself.
Leah
Jim
> Eventually, the same second line manager who had to reluctantly
>tell us to count our pens,
No way!! Perhaps if we could get his boss into some local school
administration we could get our hands around this missing scissors
issue. . . .
--
Jim
Lee
>
>Lee <boy...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>I don't believe in Big Government, but I do believe that every
>>taxpayer should be paying for school supplies for every child.
>>The benefits of education to society in relation to the cost
>>is tremendous, but we continue to short-change ourselves.
>
>There are also taxpayers who don't have children and never will.
>Why in the world should they be paying for any school supplies?
Just to be clear, taxpayers should not only pay for supplies,
but nearly the entire cost of educating all children through
high school, at least.
As for why, the simple answer is that we're going to have to
share our society with those kids, no matter how poorly they
are educated.
They're going to vote in our elections, choose which commercial
products are successful, and help to determine how our resources
are used. They can either base their decisions on the facts and
critical thinking skills they've learned in school, or on what
the pretty faces on TV tell them.
Whether or not they understand how compound interest works,
they're going to have credit cards and will be buying cars and
possibly homes. Who do you suppose ends up covering the costs
when they finally realize that they can't pay their bills?
Whether or not they understand the basics of health and nutrition,
our taxes will be paying an increasing share of their medical
expenses, particularly if they can't find good jobs.
The list goes on. Other people's kids can be a valuable resource
to society, or they can be a burden, depending in a large part on
how well we educate them. I think it's a good investment.
Rosalie B.
cheapest thing possible because it all went into the kitty.
Maybe because parents buy crappy el cheapo scissors the scissors are
thrown out sometime during the school year because they are
inoperable. I've seen scissors that it was impossible to cut
properly with because the joint was too loose and the scissors were
too thick and uneven on the cutting surface.
Or maybe they get lost. I know I guard my good scissors, and my
husband keeps accusing me of taking his (which are identical to mine).
Scissors just seem to go and hide.
I did take over a desk at my last job from another guy in the
department, and he had a pair of yellow primary school scissors in the
drawer with his name on them. I used them for 8 years, and then when
I retired gave them back to him. So maybe you'll get them all back
when they graduate from hs. :-)
Banty <ba...@banet.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:56:54 EDT, Naomi Lynne Pardue
><npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>As am I. My complaints have had nothing to do with taxes, or even book
>>fees, but only with the way supplies are purchased and distributed. (What
>>DOES happen to all those scissors?)
<snip really funny stuff about pens>
>It's just plain dumb to worry about scissors. Do you seriously expect a
>teacher with 20+ kids to keep track of every little scissor?
>
>(I remember a comedy routine about how church keys (can openers) would
>always disappear, but wire hangers would accumulate in the closet. The
>answer to the riddle - obviously church keys are the larval form of wire
>coat hangers!)
>
>Banty
grandma Rosalie
Robyn Kozierok
Tracy Cramer <greeneggsand...@thedoghousemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>I'm sorry, I disagree. When you have a child, you know there are
>going to be costs involved, all the way from the first hospital
>bill to their college education (if you're footing that). School
>supplies are a fact of life.
Some people may assume they don't have to budget for the free public
education they expect their kids to get.
It is not universal that parents are expected to pay for their
children's school supplies at the elementary level. In our school
district, *everything* is supplied by the school. In our class (don't
know if this is standard or not, this was our first year in the school)
they even sent home plain and lined paper for the children to use for
whatever they saw fit over their December vacation. They also supplied
the students with workbooks related to the reading program (grammar and
something else). The only thing we were asked to send in were craft
items like toilet paper tubes and empty cardboard boxes. This is by no
means a wealthy district, but they manage to have modern textbooks, and
decent school supplies. fwiw, this district is in Vermont, but I have
no idea if this is a statewide or even schoolboard-wide policy. Just
our first grade experience.
My point is not to brag about our district's financial planning, but to
point out that depending on peoples' own elementary experiences, or the
experiences of friends and family in other states, one might mistakenly
assume that free public education would not involve costly supply
purchases each year, and hence not budget for it when planning one's
family.
Banty
If we can get the school district to buy the supplies (I'm with others who
are wondering why this set of items are supposed to be the parents' cost),
then the administrative pin-counters will start looking after the scissors.
I'm only half joking, and perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing.
Banty
Naomi Lynne Pardue
> On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 06:53:01 EDT, Naomi Lynne Pardue
> <npa...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>children at all. That $100 is a very tiny percentage of what it costs to
>>educate our children, and I don't begrudge it to the state.
>>
>>Naomi
> Keep in mind that that $100 dollars is requested in September, when Scouts
> and sports are also getting their fees of $60 or more apiece. A lot of
> families dont' have the reserves for all that at once. And I dont' think
> one should have a bankwad to apply for the right to raise a child.
Actually , if memory serves, the bill will show up in about mid-November,
and be due around Thanksgiving. And it isn't as if it's any surprise. The
family KNOWS they will have to pay for books (if they don't know it the
first year, they will certainly know for the next 12), and can plan ahead
if need be. (Maybe put $2 a week aside?)
(And $60 for scouts? Registration for Girl Scouts is, I think $7, and
then $1 a week for dues in Shaina's troop.)
No, you don't have to have a 'bankwad'. Rational parentss do make sure
that, barring sudden economic disasters, they have the ability to support
any children they opt to have.
Naomi
Tracy Cramer
>So you think that people in PA can better afford their kids?
>Is that the difference between what you experienced there and
>what you're experiencing now? I highly doubt it.
No, actually if anything, I'm surprised that more people in the
places I lived in PA *couldn't* afford their kids because the
cost of living is so high vs. average salaries. I think the
difference between there (no book rental fees, no long lists of
supplies) and here (fees & supplies) is how the school boards
determine what is needed by the schools.
I think the schools in Indiana must be terribly underfunded,
which means the money is going elsewhere to "more important
things." I used to think that Indiana was just worse with their
money than PA, until DH told me that Indiana is one of the few
states with a surplus of $$. Great. Why don't we send some of it
to the schools?
>To both you and Naomi, I'd say that you should remember that
>some people have kids they can afford when they have them and
>then bad things happen. What should these people do with
>these kids they now can't afford -- make 'em drop out of
>school and start working for their keep?
I know that bad things happen and people can't afford certain
things. Fine, go on Welfare until things get better! Get food
stamps! Or, even better, get off your butt and go get a second
job!!
I would never expect parents to do either of the things you
suggest because the children are still the *parents'*
responsibility. Instead of sitting around, moaning, "Poor me, I
can't buy my kid pencils and folders!" perhaps the parents need
to look at their options and do something about their life.
You know, I haven't always been in the nice situation we have
now. I've been so poor I haven't had a telephone or heat in the
dead of winter. I have done without a car. When we had kids,
there was a time when DH lost his job. Did we just curl up and
collect welfare? No, I got a second job and I worked both until
we decided to move to an area where there were more jobs. We
planned and made it work.
>I am just starting my public school journey this fall when
>my oldest child enters K, but I, for one and for now, am
>happy to pay whatever taxes are needed to be sure that all the
>kids in my school district, and perhaps state, have the books
>and scissors their teachers feel they should have.
Perhaps you'll feel differently when you see other parents that
don't give a hoot about their responsibilities and you're
constantly picking up their slack.
Sorry, but if I wanted to support someone else's kid, I'd never
have had any of my own. I'd have found someone who wasn't taking
care of their kids and ask if I could just support their family.
>Every week in my rag of a local paper, people write letters
>to the editor threatening to boot out school board members
>if they increase the school budget, make what appear to some
>to be petty improvements to the school ("when *I* was in
>school all we had was..."), etc. School boards cannot ask
>for "too much" from the taxpayers or they'll be maligned and
>possibly voted out. Because lots of us automatically think
>things like "why'd these people have kids in the first
>place?!" Thus, you have to pay on an individual basis for
>school supplies.
There's a big difference between increasing the budget so
classrooms can buy tissues and asking for an increase so the
school can tack on a big ol' computer lab with 100 computers.
It's still a case of making due. Heavens, I don't work on a
state-of-the-art computer here at home, why do the kids need to
at school? Can't they apply to a local business to get outdated
computers for a lower price?
The school boards sometimes can't see the forest for the trees.
Tracy
MarjiG
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
I think this is fine. Approve.
=================================== END MODERATOR'S COMMENT
In article <124108e9...@usw-ex0102-013.remarq.com>, Tracy Cramer
<greeneggsand...@thedoghousemail.com.invalid> writes:
>
>Perhaps you'll feel differently when you see other parents that
>don't give a hoot about their responsibilities and you're
>constantly picking up their slack.
>
That kind of sums it up for me. I do think that a good school system benefits
everyone, and that the cost of the schools, teachers, books and classroom
supplies should be shared. However, I also think that it is not unreasonable
to expect that parents make an attempt to get their own children properly
equipped for school.
It isn't that I object to helping those that need it, but I do object to
subsidizing
irresponsibility.
Dawn Price
> I know that bad things happen and people can't afford certain
> things. Fine, go on Welfare until things get better! Get food
> stamps! Or, even better, get off your butt and go get a second
> job!!
>
> I would never expect parents to do either of the things you
> suggest because the children are still the *parents'*
> responsibility. Instead of sitting around, moaning, "Poor me, I
> can't buy my kid pencils and folders!" perhaps the parents need
> to look at their options and do something about their life.
My kid attends a school where I'd guess more than half of
the families are on welfare of some sort. While there are
certainly some who appear to be taking less initiative than I
would in a similar situation, for the most part these folks are
*working* poor, not sitting on their butts. I've never seen one
of them moan. They haven't got the time.
> You know, I haven't always been in the nice situation we have
> now. I've been so poor I haven't had a telephone or heat in the
> dead of winter. I have done without a car. When we had kids,
> there was a time when DH lost his job. Did we just curl up and
> collect welfare? No, I got a second job and I worked both until
> we decided to move to an area where there were more jobs. We
> planned and made it work.
Much easier to do with a second parent involved. That's not
always the case, however.
How do you suggest that a single mother with preschoolers in
addition to school-age children manage a second job? It's hard
enough for her to manage one, when school starts at 8:15 and
most jobs around here expect you at your post, ready to work, at
8:00 or earlier. And most schools (thankfully not ours) won't
allow you to drop of your kid until 15 minutes before school
starts.
That same single mother has had to find some way to pay for
extra child care all summer long, thanks to reluctance of a
nostalgic, vocal minority that continues to oppose year-round
school. Now she is approaching the end of 10-12 weeks of additional
child care costs and she gets long lists of school supplies on
top of a $34 per child book fee.
Even absent other costs (let's say one of the kids has asthsma,
or diabetes), that $100 or so may be hard to find. It will pretty
much guaranted that her kids can't afford the registration fees to
play on fall sports teams, take music lessons, etc.
> >I am just starting my public school journey this fall when
> >my oldest child enters K, but I, for one and for now, am
> >happy to pay whatever taxes are needed to be sure that all the
> >kids in my school district, and perhaps state, have the books
> >and scissors their teachers feel they should have.
>
> Perhaps you'll feel differently when you see other parents that
> don't give a hoot about their responsibilities and you're
> constantly picking up their slack.
In my son's school, those parents are much more likely to be
the wealthier ones who can't leave the medical practice or
the law firm long enough to show up to see the science fair
exhibits. I'd much rather pick up financial slack than emotional
slack.
As for the "welfare moms," they are most likely to show up when
the teacher needs a few parents on a field trip. They turn out
in huge numbers for the tiniest of school programs. They are in-
volved, and they care. Moreover, they care in distinctly different
ways. When my son played on a suburban soccer team, the parents
were highly partisan, cheering only for their children's teams (this
was a 5 yo league). This year, when he played on a basketball team
at the inner-city YMCA, it was hard to tell which parents had
kids on which team. Everyone watched, enjoyed the unique spectacle
that is 1st grade basketball, and cheered *any* time a basket was
scored, regardless of team.
> Sorry, but if I wanted to support someone else's kid, I'd never
> have had any of my own. I'd have found someone who wasn't taking
> care of their kids and ask if I could just support their family.
You know, this is not just about the parents. Feel whatever you
want about them, and I'll do the same. But what about the kids
here? *They* are the ones who may show up the first day of school
and not have the 12 shiny, sharpened pencils that most of the rest
of the class has. Fine, consider their parents deadbeats, but
are you ready to discard the kids, too?
You can support them now, in school, or you can support them
later, in jail or on welfare. They need to start somewhere feeling
that they are on some sort of an equal footing.
I'm sorry, but some of the stuff some of you are writing is so
clearly written from a middle-class, never-even-talked-with-these-
people perspective. Would you encourage your children to judge
so harshly when they have no direct experience? Or would you be
more likely to suggest that perhaps they should learn more about
the people they are judging?
-Dawn
Mom to Henry, almost 8
chelp
> That same single mother has had to find some way to pay for
> extra child care all summer long, thanks to reluctance of a
> nostalgic, vocal minority that continues to oppose year-round
> school. Now she is approaching the end of 10-12 weeks of additional
> child care costs and she gets long lists of school supplies on
> top of a $34 per child book fee.
>
My understanding of year-round schooling is not that children go for
(many) more days, but that the vacations are split differently. So,
instead of having a long summer vacation and brief winter/spring
vacations, the summer vacation would be shorter (say six weeks) and those
four or six weeks would be distributed throughout the rest of the year
(maybe four weeks at Christmas, instead of two, for example). So, the
cost of child care should be about the same, although it would be spread
out differently. Are there other proposals?
The arguments that I've heard for YR schooling have been pedagogical
(i.e. kids "forget" less with briefer vacations and get back into "school
mode" more quickly).
Lisa
MarjiG
writes:
>I'd much rather pick up financial slack than emotional
>slack.
Yep. But I'd also rather that the finacial slack I'm picking up is clearly
labeled
as such, and not simply hidden in an extra long supplies list.
MarjiG
<chelp-11080...@216-164-193-68.s322.tnt2.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com>,
ch...@my-dejanews.com (chelp) writes:
> My understanding of year-round schooling is not that children go for
>(many) more days, but that the vacations are split differently.
> So, the cost of child care should be about the same, although
> it would be spread out differently. Are there other proposals?
That's the usual method, although some places also have an 'extended year'
where the kids do go more days.
>
> The arguments that I've heard for YR schooling have been pedagogical
>(i.e. kids "forget" less with briefer vacations and get back into "school
>mode" more quickly).
That and financial on the school's part. You can put more kids into the same
buildings with a carefully done year round program.
I'd like it because we could arrange family vacations easier with time off
during
my husband's off-season.
Lee
>
>In article <399312...@attglobal.net>, dawn...@attglobal.net wrote:
>
>> That same single mother has had to find some way to pay for
>> extra child care all summer long, thanks to reluctance of a
>> nostalgic, vocal minority that continues to oppose year-round
>> school. Now she is approaching the end of 10-12 weeks of additional
>> child care costs and she gets long lists of school supplies on
>> top of a $34 per child book fee.
>>
>(many) more days, but that the vacations are split differently. So,
>vacations, the summer vacation would be shorter (say six weeks) and those
>four or six weeks would be distributed throughout the rest of the year
>cost of child care should be about the same, although it would be spread
>out differently. Are there other proposals?
>
>(i.e. kids "forget" less with briefer vacations and get back into "school
>mode" more quickly).
One study apparently found that the biggest difference in school
performance as a function of income levels was that kids from
poorer families tend to forget more during the summer break.
I've heard parents complain that the only disadvantage of their
year-round school schedule was that child care is more expensive
when you need to cover multiple two-week breaks than it is to
cover the traditional long summer vacation.
Rosalie B.
expensive (I am not sure the savings would be that great), what is to
prevent the parents or the PTA/PTO from getting together and doing a
bulk buy from SAMs or somewhere. If that is the only issue (which of
course it is not) that would go some way to alleviate it. If you
could get 30 parents together and get 30 pairs of scissors and 90
boxes of tissues, you might be able to get a cheaper price.
grandma Rosalie
John Hascall
>Tracy Cramer wrote:
...
>> You know, I haven't always been in the nice situation we have
>> now. I've been so poor I haven't had a telephone or heat in the
>> dead of winter. I have done without a car. When we had kids,
>> there was a time when DH lost his job. Did we just curl up and
>> collect welfare? No, I got a second job and I worked both until
>> we decided to move to an area where there were more jobs. We
>> planned and made it work.
>I'm sorry, but some of the stuff some of you are writing is so
>clearly written from a middle-class, never-even-talked-with-these-
>people perspective. Would you encourage your children to judge
>so harshly when they have no direct experience? Or would you be
>more likely to suggest that perhaps they should learn more about
>the people they are judging?
Dawn,
You are usually the paragon of reason around here, but this
comment sounds like you didn't even read what was written!
Generally speaking, I think you'll find the *most* vocal
critics of the lazy poor (as opposed to the really working
poor) are exactly those who have pulled themselves up by
their own bootstraps. Next time you're over by E33rd and
Hubbell you can check out the trailer court where I spent
my first nine years as my parents really struggled for
something better.
I went back last year and it's unbelievable -- we were all
poor, but at least we had pride in how our homes and yards
looked -- now, it's just one filthy, run-down dump after another.
What kind of childhood can that be? I really shudder to think.
Anytime I start thinking my job is long and hard, I can just
think of my father doing physical labor all those years and
I just thank my lucky stars he did and that my brother and I
getting a good education was so important to him and my mother.
John
Dad to David, almost 7
Robin Netherton
A brief note of explanation:
A post on this thread appeared with a "Moderator's Comment" at the top
stating "I think this is fine. Approve." That was actually a snatch of the
routine conversation we moderators have among ourselves when assessing
posts. Those routine conversations aren't meant to be posted; sometimes,
if one of us hits the wrong combination of buttons, a comment like that
can appear mistakenly as an official "Moderator's Comment" on the post
itself. That's what happened here.
So, the comment in this case was *not* meant to be an official moderator
endorsement of whatever views were stated in the post -- the opinion was
one moderator stating to the others that the post met the group's rules
and was therefore approvable. The moderators are *not* judging posts based
on whether we agree with the views in them!
--Robin Netherton
One of the mkm moderators
Terrie
>Teachers have a lot of trouble getting classroom supplies, and
often
>lay out their own money because it just isn't available. (I'm
talking
>about bulletin board material, and project materials.) Some
places
>don't have enough paper for teachers to duplicate worksheets,
or they
>run out before the end of the year.
>
>
This is why our PTA offers to reimburse each teacher up to $100
for supplies that are purchased for the classroom. All they
have to do is give us their receipts. I know it isn't much, but
it is greatly appreciated by them. Every little bit helps!!
Terrie
Terrie
>In article <8mmooa$10k$5...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,>>We won't know who Shaina's teacher is
>>until the day before school starts, but the supply lists are
the same for
>>all.
>
>Doesn't this drive the kids crazy? My kids like/need as much
>foreknowledge of what is coming as possible, and not knowing
who their
>teacher would be until the day before school started would be
very
>stressful for them! (We get next year's teacher assignment on
our
>final report card.)
>
>
You are soooo lucky. Around here it is up to the individual
schools principal. Our school posts the class lists on the
front window of the school, after 3:30 (when everyone leaves for
the day), the day before school starts. I know their reason.
They don't want people calling and asking to have their children
moved to different classes.
You should see the masses of children trying to get to the
lists. I think our enrollment is around 620 this year and they
are all anxious to see who their teacher will be. What a
joke!! I can't wait until our principal retires. He has been
there since the school opened 25 years ago, and I don't see him
leaving any time soon :(
Robin Netherton
:> He also needs to take $1 for a computer disc, and a magazine. I'm not sure
:> what kind of magazine, so I'll have to ask at Meet-the-Teacher night. If
:> the purpose is to cut out pictures, I doubt they'll want back copies of
:> scholarly or medical journals (which I wouldn't send anyway), and I won't
:> part with my Consumer Reports. I wonder if the Economist would work? Those
:> seem to pile up around here...
Karla wrote:
: Usually the "magazine" is something like Time for Kids or Weekly Reader
: or other classroom aide. Before people go off on when we were kids... I
: remember my mother had to send money in with us for weekly reader (or
: whatever was the equivalent) back when I was in elementary school back
: in the late 60's. (I graduated high school in 77)
No, I'm not supposed to send money for a magazine -- a magazine is one of
the items on a list of things I'm supposed to provide. It just doesn't
specify what kind of magazine! The dollar is for a computer disc, and is a
separate item on the list.
Weekly Reader is still around; my kid got it through his private
kindergarten last year. (He called it "Wiggly Reader." :-) ) Cost a LOT
more than a dollar for the subscription, though!
--Robin
Marion Baumgarten
>
> It's just plain dumb to worry about scissors. Do you seriously expect a
> teacher with 20+ kids to keep track of every little scissor?
>
I remember in school we had a scissors holder that the teacher would
bring out- with a few pairs that had green handles for lefties- and then
we would use the scissors and a scissors monitor would collect them at
the end and put them back.
--
Mother to die wunderkinder Martha (11) and Peter (8)
St. John's College, Annapolis, MD 1982
Marion Baumgarten <mari...@mindspring.com)
Marion Baumgarten
Actually there are companies that do this as a fundraising business. The
other elementary school in my district and several paraochial schools
were the PTO/A sells school supplies in a kit already picked out for
your child's grade level.
MarjiG
mari...@mindspring.com (Marion Baumgarten) writes:
>>
>> It's just plain dumb to worry about scissors. Do you seriously expect a
>> teacher with 20+ kids to keep track of every little scissor?
>>
>
>I remember in school we had a scissors holder that the teacher would
>bring out- with a few pairs that had green handles for lefties- and then
>we would use the scissors and a scissors monitor would collect them at
>the end and put them back.
>
>
That's what my daughters' classes did last year too. The only
difference is that each child brought a pair to school at the
beginning of the year to be put in the holder. The scissors
were still in the holder on the last day, but this year's supply
lists still asked for scissors.
It isn't that I'm obsessed with scissors, they are just an example
of how the current system encourages irresponsibility.
clem...@hotmail.com
mar...@aol.com (MarjiG) wrote:
The scissors
> were still in the holder on the last day, but this year's supply
> lists still asked for scissors.
>
> It isn't that I'm obsessed with scissors, they are just an example
> of how the current system encourages irresponsibility.
>
But this *does* make sense. You bring in scissors in Grade 1 in
September, you bring them home in June. You bring in scissors in Grade
2 in September. The list doesn't say *new* scissors. It
says "scissors." If it isn't on the supply list, many parents don't
send them in! I don't see what the problem is here. every year, all
three of my children bring home their scissors to be used the following
year. I've only had one child, one year, not bring his scissors home.
Marijke
mom to Matthew (april 87), Anne (february 89) and Kevin (sept 91)
--
my fun:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/2716
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
MarjiG
>But this *does* make sense. You bring in scissors in Grade 1 in
>September, you bring them home in June. You bring in scissors in Grade
>2 in September. The list doesn't say *new* scissors.
That's just it. They never got passed out again to bring home, so I couldn't
send them back in again. Seven different classes, in 3 different districts,
and not once
has a pair been brought home. I was in the classroom at the end of the last
day of
2nd grade, I don't know what that teacher did with the scissors, but I know she
didn't
pass them out, so it isn't that my kids are losing theirs.
Like almost everything else, YMMV. It sounds like you're in a district that
handles supplies better than the ones I've dealt with. So far this year the
kids seem to be expected to keep track of their own supplies. But, I got a
notice last week that they
are forming a new 3rd grade class, so if my daughter's name is drawn for that
I'll have a new teacher, and potentially a new supplies list to deal with.
(But, I hope that only 2 weeks in to the school year we can still identify her
scissors etc.)
Cathy
>
> >> am now covering my ears, and repeating loud enough so I can't
> >>hear you guys: "School is *not* beginning in four weeks. School
> >>is not beginning in four weeks. School is not..."
>
> > You're right about that, we're down to our last 4 _days_. Some
districts
> > started last week.
>
> We're in Indiana. School starts in 2 1/2 weeks ... a week later than
in
> past years. (They'd dropped some of the days off during the school
year
> and are starting a week later.) We get out the first week of June.
(Not
> May, as I typoed in my other post...).
>
> Naomi
Our school started August 23rd, and our last day will be June 13th.
This is in Los Altos, California. California dictates 180 school days,
not counting teacher training days. Our district gets off a week at
Thanksgiving (though teacher confernces are scheduled for Monday and
Tuesday) two and a half weeks at Christmas, a four day weekend for
Martin Luther King day, a ski week around presidents day, and a spring
break in March or April. So we have a long calandar to make up for the
breaks. But there is only airconditioning in the portable classrooms,
and the others can get really hot. (Which of course elicites
conversations like "My first grade teacher is Mrs. Roberts and she's
nice." "Well my first grade teacher is Miss Lane and she has
airconditioning!")
Cathy