FAQ: Israeli WTC casualties
Jorn Barger
On 18 Sept 2001, one week after the attack on the World Trade Center, a
report began to circulate on the Internet, usually titled "4,000 Israeli
Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack". It was apparently first
posted at paknews.com:
http://paknews.com/flash.php?id=27&date1=2001-09-18
but attributed there to Al-Manar Television, Beirut, Lebanon, who
themselves sourced it to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper.
By 20 Sept this report had been reposted hundreds of times:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=watan&as_drrb=b&as_mind=18&as_minm=
9&as_miny=2001&as_maxd=20&as_maxm=9&as_maxy=2001&num=100&as_scoring=d
But on the evening of 20 Sept, President Bush addressed a television
audience estimated at 82 million, and said:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html
"Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with
our own: dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than
250 citizens of India..."
Those hundreds of Internet flamewars were immediately, effectively
quenched. But almost no one noticed, two days later, when the NY Times
quietly published a retraction of that 'more than 130' figure:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/22/nyregion/22NUMB.html
or
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=c0c6feba.0109220447.4d00e6ce%40post
ing.google.com
"There were, in fact, only three Israelis who had been confirmed as
dead: two on the planes and another who had been visiting the towers
on business and who was identified and buried."
So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
And not only was this retraction buried so deeply that it went virtually
unnoticed, it's also wrapped in doubletalk about duplicate reports and
missing vs confirmed-dead, clearly intended to convey the impression
that this was an innocent error. But a review of the Jerusalem Post's
coverage of the tragedy makes the 'innocent error' claim highly
implausible:
By the morning of 12 Sept, two Israeli airline passengers were being
named, while those reported missing numbered 4000 (probably the main
source of the original rumor):
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/News/News.34692.html
By that afternoon, one report claimed four missing:
www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34702.html
dropping that night to three:
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34747.html
The next morning (13th) there was a jump in the number still missing:
www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.34760.html
that mentions six who might have been in the immediate vicinity, and 40
in the general neighborhood. (These were obviously names that had been
called in, that still needed to be tracked down.)
And that afternoon these numbers were lowered to four and four:
www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.34823.html
On the 14th, the number believed _in_ the WTC was upped to eight:
www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/14/LatestNews/LatestNews.34854.html
while the number of names to be traced jumped dramatically to 150.
But then the Post falls silent, as far as I can trace, until the 20th,
when four names are cited in an article titled "Foreign Ministry hoping
to hear from remaining Israelis":
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/main/results.html?QryTxt=shefi
(This article is not available for free, so I don't know what number it
offers for those 'remaining'.)
The NY Times retraction of 22 Sept says:
"Over the last several days, the city's list of the missing became
inflated by what officials said were missing persons reports from
consulates and embassies for countries including India and Israel."
So in the first two days, by the 13th, the consulate had reduced a list
of 4000 missing to three missing. Then 150 more names appeared on the
14th, but surely these too must have been relentlessly investigated-- so
one does indeed wonder why the Jerusalem Post lost all interest in the
progress of the list for the next week.
And then somehow around the 18th or 19th, as the conspiracy rumor was
taking off in a very dangerous way, this 'inflated' list-- which had
mysteriously only shrunk from 150 to 130 in five days-- this list was
mistakenly delivered to the City of New York, where it was mysteriously
mistaken for a list of confirmed dead. And then, out of all the 80
countries that Bush might have singled out for recognition, he happened
to choose this 4500% error to emphasize before all those 82 million
television viewers...
And then, of course, the retraction was mysteriously buried.
So what are we to make of this?
_Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
Two Post articles from 13 Sept give contradictory reports of Israeli
businesses in the WTC:
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34747.html
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34749.html
The first says there were none, the second says there had been two, one
of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other was on the
47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
So if Bush hadn't presented that wildly exaggerated claim, the rumors
would have been much harder to quash. And this seems especially
sinister to me because of this wider context:
- Israel would love more US help in fighting its war against 'Islamic
terrorism'
- many US Jews have a divided allegiance between Israel and the US
- many powerful figures in the media and government share this divided
allegiance, but this is almost never declared openly
- the US media have a virtual blackout on explaining what the Islamic
grievances are (I understand CNN recently banned even the term
'settlements')
- the US media never mention the staggering degree of bigotry in
orthodox Judaism (in a recent Post story, orthodox Jews were
unwilling to ride in a taxi _driven_ by a non-Jew without a rabbi's
approval!?)
So our current situation is that we're quite possibly being dragged into
World War III by undeclared agents of a foreign government, in defense
of a fundamentalist religion we're not allowed to criticise (or even
understand), for a nation that scorns international law... and that now
_appears_ to have taken advantage of our national tragedy to advance
their selfish agenda.
Here's what I think the American people deserve, at minimum:
- a credible accounting for the mysterious inflated list-- what was on
it, why was it so long, how did it get misdelivered
- a public apology for the appearance of cynical opportunism
- a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
and most importantly:
- a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
sides so that people can make an informed decision
--
http://www.robotwisdom.com/ "Relentlessly intelligent
yet playful, polymathic in scope of interests, minimalist
but user-friendly design." --Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
Hank Oredson
--
... Hank
Let loose the cats of war,
sleek and fast and strong.
They will seek and kill,
the evil we have found.
"Jorn Barger" <jo...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:1f0c6de.1bba9p5cwre0jN%jo...@enteract.com...
> [Please feel free to repost this widely.]
[Please feel free to ignore this antisemitic propaganda]
Glen Bradley
propaganda. Not only has it been reasonably debunked, but it was openly
debunked, loudly, and with multiple sources.
And you were a participant in the thread that did it.
So why do you continue to post known enemy propaganda?
Whatever reason can you give me to explain WHY you continue to post
something that is widely known to be enemy propaganda??
"I am sending you out as sheep among wolves.
Therefore, be as wise as serpents, as gentle as doves."
Well, it has become too apparent to deny any longer. The only reason
that I can think of for someone to continue to issue known-libelous
enemy propaganda, is that they have some kind of personal motivation to
issue enemy propagandy for one reason or another. The actual motive is
irrelevant, and therefore I will not speculate. The important fact is
that it's here, and that we recognize it.
In article <1f0c6de.1bba9p5cwre0jN%jo...@enteract.com>,
jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
^ [Please feel free to repost this widely.]
IOW, 'please help me spread this enemy propaganda.'
^ On 18 Sept 2001, one week after the attack on the World Trade Center, a
^ report began to circulate on the Internet, usually titled "4,000 Israeli
^ Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack". It was apparently first
^ posted at paknews.com:
^ http://paknews.com/flash.php?id=27&date1=2001-09-18
^ but attributed there to Al-Manar Television, Beirut, Lebanon, who
^ themselves sourced it to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper.
Ahh, yes, we all know that the Taliban controlled media is more accurate
than, say, the AP.
<-snip->
^ and most importantly:
^
^ - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
^ sides so that people can make an informed decision
And who will be doing this 'teach-in' on Judaism in the Middle East, the
PLO? Perhaps at gunpoint?
--
Support usenet and internet integrity: Hold your ISP accountable!
(remove from after the @: 's p.a m' to unmunge e-mail address)
WARNING - all UCE spam to this mailbox generates abuse complaints.
Liam G
etc. But when a guy puts together a bit of evidence against the Jews its
anti-Semitic. The guy has a legitimate right to post here his views backed
with evidence. He may be wrong he may even be right but what I can say is I
have yet to see the undeniable proof that bin laden did it yet most people
accept he did it because we are told he did it.
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
news:OQms7.9260$WW.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Paul Harper
wrote:
>Why are you still posting these antisemitic lies?
The best response to a post you believe to be a lie is to post proof
otherwise.
Do you have proof that what was posted is wrong, or are you simply
expressing an opinion?
Paul.
--
A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
" . . . SFX is a fairly useless publication on just
about every imaginable front. Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so
little, with so much, for so long." JMS.
Dan Nelson
couple hundred are *confirmed*?! Obviously, America has overstated
their casualties, which is proof that we did this. We should begin
carpet-bombing of Kansas immediately in retaliation.
--
mhm27x20, smeeter #11
"... a lack of Stuff really sucks."
- Sergi
pez
Glen Bradley <glenb...@sncp.arrm.com> wrote:
$ This drivel has long ago been debunked as rife fraud and enemy
$ propaganda. Not only has it been reasonably debunked, but it was openly
$ debunked, loudly, and with multiple sources.
$
$ And you were a participant in the thread that did it.
$
$ So why do you continue to post known enemy propaganda?
$
$ Whatever reason can you give me to explain WHY you continue to post
$ something that is widely known to be enemy propaganda??
$
$ "I am sending you out as sheep among wolves.
$ Therefore, be as wise as serpents, as gentle as doves."
$
$ Well, it has become too apparent to deny any longer. The only reason
$ that I can think of for someone to continue to issue known-libelous
$ enemy propaganda, is that they have some kind of personal motivation to
$ issue enemy propagandy for one reason or another. The actual motive is
$ irrelevant, and therefore I will not speculate. The important fact is
$ that it's here, and that we recognize it.
$
$ In article <1f0c6de.1bba9p5cwre0jN%jo...@enteract.com>,
$ jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
$
$ ^ [Please feel free to repost this widely.]
$
$ IOW, 'please help me spread this enemy propaganda.'
$
$ ^ On 18 Sept 2001, one week after the attack on the World Trade Center, a
$ ^ report began to circulate on the Internet, usually titled "4,000 Israeli
$ ^ Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack". It was apparently first
$ ^ posted at paknews.com:
$ ^ http://paknews.com/flash.php?id=27&date1=2001-09-18
$ ^ but attributed there to Al-Manar Television, Beirut, Lebanon, who
$ ^ themselves sourced it to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper.
$
$ Ahh, yes, we all know that the Taliban controlled media is more accurate
$ than, say, the AP.
$
$ <-snip->
$
$ ^ and most importantly:
$ ^
$ ^ - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
$ ^ sides so that people can make an informed decision
$
$ And who will be doing this 'teach-in' on Judaism in the Middle East, the
$ PLO? Perhaps at gunpoint?
The hate thats why
pez
<.@.> wrote:
$ Without trying to defend him why can a person go and rip to pieces Islam
$ etc. But when a guy puts together a bit of evidence against the Jews its
$ anti-Semitic. The guy has a legitimate right to post here his views backed
$ with evidence. He may be wrong he may even be right but what I can say is I
$ have yet to see the undeniable proof that bin laden did it yet most people
$ accept he did it because we are told he did it.
$
We are not ripping Islam just terrorist rat basterds.
Indigo Reactor
points.
Those who shout him down provide no evidence, only insults.
If you want to discredit Jorn Barger by providing evidence, please do.
But trying to discredit your opponents by simply accusing them of
anti-semitism is lazy, deceitful, and disgusting to all fair-minded people.
Dan Nelson <dne...@black-hole.com> wrote in message
news:3BB20BD8...@black-hole.com...
Liam G
"pez" <pez...@ntplx.net> wrote in message
news:pezcleo-2609...@p04-27.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com...
Maybe so be he is entitled to his opinion
George W. Bush
More utter bollocks.
George.
"Jorn Barger" <jo...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:1f0c6de.1bba9p5cwre0jN%jo...@enteract.com...
Hank Oredson
1) His "evidence" is incorrect, as has been pointed out many times.
2) He continues to post the same lies over and over.
3) It is directed only at one specific country.
Perhaps one might wonder why he did not post the same
incorrect "counts" of British citizens killed or missing?
--
... Hank
Let loose the cats of war,
sleek and fast and strong.
They will seek and kill,
the evil we have found.
"Liam G" <.@.> wrote in message
news:dbns7.8568$L4.16...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Hank Oredson
Try really hard to understand the difference between
"confirmed dead" (found the body, identified it) and
"missing and presumed dead" (we will NEVER find a body).
--
... Hank
Let loose the cats of war,
sleek and fast and strong.
They will seek and kill,
the evil we have found.
"Indigo Reactor" <ind...@nospam.majid.abelgratis.net> wrote in message
news:3bb2...@runswick.octacon.co.uk...
ArthuR the VoR
"Jorn Barger" <jo...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:1f0c6de.1bba9p5cwre0jN%jo...@enteract.com...
<SNIP> Ha ha.
Something dodgy is occurring with the figures, that's for sure. I'm
astounded that after 15 days, so few bodies have been identified. The
earthquake in Armenia had more accurate estimates of the dead and
injured.
Bush's mention of "130 Israelis" may have been woefully inaccurate, but
in Britain we're not sure how many Britons are missing, let alone
confirmed dead.
I would like to see official figures that show the current number of
people missing in the rubble (or found but not identified) and the
number of identified dead.
It think some confusion has occurred because the plane passengers have
all been described as dead (obviously) but their bodies haven't been
discovered or identified yet.
Even if Israel *was* involved in a conspiracy, there would still likely
be Israeli casualties. It does not follow, however, that if no Israelis
were killed, Israel was definitely involved in such a conspiracy.
Quit the anti-Semitism and open your mind a little.
--
ArthuR
Eric Chomko
: Yeah. And what's all this gobbletygook about 6,000 dead, when only a
: couple hundred are *confirmed*?! Obviously, America has overstated
: their casualties, which is proof that we did this. We should begin
: carpet-bombing of Kansas immediately in retaliation.
WHY did we do this? The Pentagon? For affect, huh?
Eric
Liam G
> Because:
>
> 1) His "evidence" is incorrect, as has been pointed out many times.
but if they are incorrect then identify the incorrect evidence.
> 2) He continues to post the same lies over and over.
Maybe he doesn't feel he is being heard ?
> 3) It is directed only at one specific country.
Why would that be a problem? Israel without doubt have the capability to do
it along with many nations single headedly.
>
> Perhaps one might wonder why he did not post the same
> incorrect "counts" of British citizens killed or missing?
>
Is the British count as wide of the Israeli mark?
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
>
> So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
>
This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
headed for the White House. Or the lie that the terrorists are
attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
These remind me of the Gulf War lies; e.g., that Saddam was not
invited to do as he wished with Kuwait by the Bush administration, or
that the Patriot missiles were 98% effective; or that the Iraqis stole
all the infant incubators in Kuwait. (Truth: Bush administration
said, “It’s a purely Arab affair”; the Patriots were
about 3% effective and falling Patriot junk posed a bigger threat to
the Israelis than did the scuds from Iraq; and the incubator story was
dreamed up by an American PR firm for the Kuwaiti embassy and
propagated by Congress persons who knew a priori that it was a lie.)
> _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
>
Indeed the number of Israelis admitted to be present (Is it 4 or 6?)
is surprisingly low by one if not two orders of magnitude.
> Here's what I think the American people deserve, at minimum:
>
> - a credible accounting for the mysterious inflated list-- what was on
> it, why was it so long, how did it get misdelivered
I think you already have credibly explained and accounted for this
list: pure disinformation.
>
> - a public apology for the appearance of cynical opportunism
I see no appearance here; I see nothing cynical here. What I see is
that the Bush administration knows the political reality: That
Americans, especially when whipped into a xenophobic fury, are suckers
willing to believe the most incredible lies and distortions.
Admittedly, most have little time to study the matter, and most are
undereducated about the world, but most could, if they took the time
to add 2 plus 2 and think a bit about what they are being told, see
through the lies of the administration (e.g., that AF1 and the White
House were under attack on September 11).
>
> - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
Yes, where did the tens or hundreds of Israelis in the WTC vanish to
before 845 am on September 11?
>
> and most importantly:
>
> - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
> sides so that people can make an informed decision
Yes, there is a crying need for this. As a professor at AUC in Cairo
(1984-5) I studied the matter carefully and since then have carefully
watched US policy re the subject. It is a matter of historical
record, plain to anyone who wants to look into it, that American
policy in the Levant has been a continuation of the British policy
established at the 1919 Paris peace conference. To wit, a policy of
balkanization of the Arab homeland maintained by fomenting continual
instability and bickering between the fragmented states of the region.
Whenever the Americans have spoken of a peace initiative it has been
100% disingenuous. Recently, America has been pushing Israel’s
apartheid solution. A solution akin to that which
“solved” the South African racial problems in 1948. There
is no fundamental difference between the American/Israeli program of
herding Palestinians into “enclaves” and the all-American
program of herding First Nations Natives into Indian Reservations in
the United States to end the Indian Wars. Both are at root genocidal
solutions to a cultural problem motivated by settlers’ greed to
steal the land and resources of the natives.
The problem is compounded by the oil resources of the region. The
British were motivated by the need to protect their Suez route to
India and their BP-owned (half crown-, half-capitalist owned) oil
wells near the Persian Gulf. In the 20s the British employed an
organized crime family from central Arabia (Nejd) to overthrow the
sharif of Mecca, Hussein. Hussein had been promised an Arab homeland,
comprising the Ottoman empire’s Arab territories (all of the
Arabian peninsula, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan). The British
were double-dealing, imperialistic, bastards (I know that’s
redundant). So the GodFather of this criminal clan, Ibn Saud, did
what he was paid to do and chased Hussein out of the Islamic holy
cities of Mecca and Medina. He tried to advance northward but the
British stopped him near Aqaba in Jordan, and at the Red Line they
hurriedly drew on a map to define Kuwait. But Ibn Saud did capture
the seemingly worthless Shiite territory called al Hasa on the Persian
Gulf. Bingo, oil was found by American prospectors. Pre WWII
Standard Oil of California (now Chevron) and The Texas Oil Company
(now Texaco) formed Caltex and created the Arab-American Oil Company
(Aramco). Jack Philby, a renegade British foreign service officer,
taught Ibn Saud that he needed friends in high places in order to cash
in on this oil wealth. So the Saudi family stole all the oil in
Arabia, from the Arabians, and then made sweetheart deals with
American firms to export it to world. Meanwhile, the Americans and BP
wheeled and dealed and double dealed with the Iraqis to suppress
Iraq’s oil output, somewhat successfully. And, when post WWII
Persia became democratic, America had the CIA overthrown its
government and install a puppet dictator from the Pahlavi family, more
or less creating another totalitarian police state on the model of
that in Arabia. Fastforward to the end of the cold war. Shah Pahlavi
is already overthrown, and dies an exile in Texas. Iran and Iraq
start to crank up oil production. The Saudi’s give their
Chevron and Texaco buddies (to whom they are absolutely tied by the
incredibly lucrative contract giving the Saudis de jure control of
Aramco) an even sweeter oil price arrangement. Reagan becomes
increasingly demented; the CIA/Bechtel nexus (Bush, Schultz,
Weinberger) become increasingly bold; AWACs planes go to the Saudis;
Saudis purchase billions in American-made weapons. Kuwait’s al
Sabah family schemes to cut all foreigners out of getting profits from
Kuwaiti oil. Kuwait starts to steal Iraqi oil. Iraq protests.
America tell Iraq’s Saddam Hussein that, “It’s a
purely Arab affair.” Saddam annexes Kuwait, once part of the
Ottoman’s Mesopotamian province. Bush springs his trap. Bush
destroys Kuwait’s oil fields and teaches the al Sabah family the
importance of having friends in high places. Bush embargos Iraq to
keep Iraqi oil mostly shut in indefinitely. Saudi oil output more
than doubles. The Bush/Bechtel nexus get fat rebuilding Kuwait.
American oil firms get rich exporting Saudi oil. American taxpayers
pay the bill and bury their dead. Clinton, who is CIA-compromised by
involvement in drug running to the Contras, maintains the status quo
for eight years. The CIA keeps warning us about terrorism but no
measures are taken to protect Americans. Enron, a Texas based
multinational energy conglomerate, helps finance Bush 43’s
appointment to the Presidency. Enron, probably violating US anti
trust laws, fucks all the Californians by fixing the price of
electricity and causing rolling blackouts. California’s
governor, Gray Davis, sues Enron et al for about $10 billion in
rapacious over charges. Enron, Mobil, and Chevron become anxious
about their decade-old contracts to export oil and gas from the Former
Soviet Republics whose communist dictators gave them sweetheart deals
arranged by the Bush41 administration’s cabinet members
(Mosbacher and Baker) on their travels as oil industry frontmen.
Enron designs a trans-Caspian oil pipeline to deprive the Russians
from getting a share of the loot from Kazakhstan’s and
Turkmenistan’s oil exports. Bush43 administration officials
scurry to meetings with Armenian and Azeri diplomats, seeking peace,
seeking to make the region secure so that the trans-Caspian oil
pipeline can be built. CIA/FBI continue to do nothing about terrorist
threat to domestic security even in the wake of the attack on the USS
Cole, even in light of all the published evidence from the embassy
bombing trials. Curious? Enron expresses interest in a trans
Afghanistan/Pakistan gas pipeline to India. Terrorists kill about
5,000 people at WTC et al. Congress enjoys a Gulf of Tonkin moment.
Bush 43 voted dictatorial powers to prosecute an indefinite war;
anywhere he chooses, against a pronoun, Them. Bush 43 freezes the
assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding names. All
American’s are relieved knowing that Osama’s funding
sources have dried up. Bush 43 exacerbates the WTC terror attack
economic losses by repeatedly uttering frightening and inane phrases
such as, “smoke him out”, “dead or alive”,
“crusade”, and “infinite justice”. Osama
begins to quake in his boots. Bush 43 achieves a trillion dollar loss
in one day in equity value, an all time, world record. Bush 43
continues to parody Bush 41 and causes a recession, first one since
Bush 41 was demonstrating his astute leadership skills. Americans
respond to polls saying that they are 90% in favor of Bush 43. Bush
43 closets himself with his advisors seeking 100% endorsement by the
American public. More scare language, a public burning of the
Constitution, internment camps for the ACLU and computer hackers, and
removal of plastic “silverware” from the Library of
Congress and all grade school cafeterias are advised; the secret
policy package is reduced to a few zippy talking points and labeled
“Complete Success” to get the CIA on board. Bush
43’s defense experts focus efforts solely on crushing
Afghanistan, cowing Pakistan, and occupying the Central Asian FSRs.
Bush 43 spends his nights reading Winston Churchill’s memoirs on
the finer points about “draining the swamps”, combating
Maoist tactics, and herding women and children from the villages into
concentration camps with wafts of poison gas sprayed by crop dusters
(opps, sorry, that last was a page from British history in Iraq, er,
er, or was it Mussolini’s crusade against the Amharics, or
both). Well you can see now the problem: Loose lips sink ships.
Americans you’d all be safe in the hands of Il Duce, if we could
just make people like Jorn Barger stop pushing their
“agendas” on the Internet.
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
>
> So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
>
This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
headed for the White House. Or the lie that the terrorists are
attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
These remind me of the Gulf War lies; e.g., that Saddam was not
invited to do as he wished with Kuwait by the Bush administration, or
that the Patriot missiles were 98% effective; or that the Iraqis stole
all the infant incubators in Kuwait. (Truth: Bush administration
said, "It's a purely Arab affair"; the Patriots were about 3%
effective and falling Patriot junk posed a bigger threat to the
Israelis than did the scuds from Iraq; and the incubator story was
dreamed up by an American PR firm for the Kuwaiti embassy and
propagated by Congress persons who knew a priori that it was a lie.)
> _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
>
Indeed the number of Israelis admitted to be present (Is it 4 or 6?)
is surprisingly low by one if not two orders of magnitude.
> Here's what I think the American people deserve, at minimum:
>
> - a credible accounting for the mysterious inflated list-- what was on
> it, why was it so long, how did it get misdelivered
I think you already have credibly explained and accounted for this
list: pure disinformation.
>
> - a public apology for the appearance of cynical opportunism
I see no appearance here; I see nothing cynical here. What I see is
that the Bush administration knows the political reality: That
Americans, especially when whipped into a xenophobic fury, are suckers
willing to believe the most incredible lies and distortions.
Admittedly, most have little time to study the matter, and most are
undereducated about the world, but most could, if they took the time
to add 2 plus 2 and think a bit about what they are being told, see
through the lies of the administration (e.g., that AF1 and the White
House were under attack on September 11).
>
> - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
Yes, where did the tens or hundreds of Israelis in the WTC vanish to
before 845 am on September 11?
>
> and most importantly:
>
> - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
> sides so that people can make an informed decision
Yes, there is a crying need for this. As a professor at AUC in Cairo
(1984-5) I studied the matter carefully and since then have carefully
watched US policy re the subject. It is a matter of historical
record, plain to anyone who wants to look into it, that American
policy in the Levant has been a continuation of the British policy
established at the 1919 Paris peace conference. To wit, a policy of
balkanization of the Arab homeland maintained by fomenting continual
instability and bickering between the fragmented states of the region.
Whenever the Americans have spoken of a peace initiative it has been
100% disingenuous. Recently, America has been pushing Israel's
apartheid solution. A solution akin to that which "solved" the South
African racial problems in 1948. There is no fundamental difference
between the American/Israeli program of herding Palestinians into
"enclaves" and the all-American program of herding First Nations
Natives into Indian Reservations in the United States to end the
Indian Wars. Both are at root genocidal solutions to a cultural
problem motivated by settlers' greed to steal the land and resources
of the natives.
The problem is compounded by the oil resources of the region. The
British were motivated by the need to protect their Suez route to
India and their BP-owned (half crown-, half-capitalist owned) oil
wells near the Persian Gulf. In the 20s the British employed an
organized crime family from central Arabia (Nejd) to overthrow the
sharif of Mecca, Hussein. Hussein had been promised an Arab homeland,
comprising the Ottoman empire's Arab territories (all of the Arabian
peninsula, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan). The British were
double-dealing, imperialistic, bastards (I know that's redundant). So
the GodFather of this criminal clan, Ibn Saud, did what he was paid to
do and chased Hussein out of the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and
Medina. He tried to advance northward but the British stopped him
near Aqaba in Jordan, and at the Red Line they hurriedly drew on a map
to define Kuwait. But Ibn Saud did capture the seemingly worthless
Shiite territory called al Hasa on the Persian Gulf. Bingo, oil was
found by American prospectors. Pre WWII Standard Oil of California
(now Chevron) and The Texas Oil Company (now Texaco) formed Caltex and
created the Arab-American Oil Company (Aramco). Jack Philby, a
renegade British foreign service officer, taught Ibn Saud that he
needed friends in high places in order to cash in on this oil wealth.
So the Saudi family stole all the oil in Arabia, from the Arabians,
and then made sweetheart deals with American firms to export it to
world. Meanwhile, the Americans and BP wheeled and dealed and double
dealed with the Iraqis to suppress Iraq’s oil output, somewhat
successfully. And, when post WWII Persia became democratic, America
had the CIA overthrown its government and install a puppet dictator
from the Pahlavi family, more or less creating another totalitarian
police state on the model of that in Arabia. Fastforward to the end
of the cold war. Shah Pahlavi is already overthrown, and dies an
exile in Texas. Iran and Iraq start to crank up oil production. The
Saudi's give their Chevron and Texaco buddies (to whom they are
absolutely tied by the incredibly lucrative contract giving the Saudis
de jure control of Aramco) an even sweeter oil price arrangement.
Reagan becomes increasingly demented; the CIA/Bechtel nexus (Bush,
Schultz, Weinberger) become increasingly bold; AWACs planes go to the
Saudis; Saudis purchase billions in American-made weapons. Kuwait's
al Sabah family schemes to cut all foreigners out of getting profits
from Kuwaiti oil. Kuwait starts to steal Iraqi oil. Iraq protests.
America tell Iraq's Saddam Hussein that, "It's a purely Arab affair."
Saddam annexes Kuwait, once part of the Ottoman's Mesopotamian
province. Bush springs his trap. Bush destroys Kuwait's oil fields
and teaches the al Sabah family the importance of having friends in
high places. Bush embargos Iraq to keep Iraqi oil mostly shut in
indefinitely. Saudi oil output more than doubles. The Bush/Bechtel
nexus get fat rebuilding Kuwait. American oil firms get rich
exporting Saudi oil. American taxpayers pay the bill and bury their
dead. Clinton, who is CIA-compromised by involvement in drug running
to the Contras, maintains the status quo for eight years. The CIA
keeps warning us about terrorism but no measures are taken to protect
Americans. Enron, a Texas based multinational energy conglomerate,
helps finance Bush 43's appointment to the Presidency. Enron,
probably violating US anti trust laws, fucks all the Californians by
fixing the price of electricity and causing rolling blackouts.
California's governor, Gray Davis, sues Enron et al for about $10
billion in rapacious over charges. Enron, Mobil, and Chevron become
anxious about their decade-old contracts to export oil and gas from
the Former Soviet Republics whose communist dictators gave them
sweetheart deals arranged by the Bush41 administration's cabinet
members (Mosbacher and Baker) on their travels as oil industry
frontmen. Enron designs a trans-Caspian oil pipeline to deprive the
Russians from getting a share of the loot from Kazakhstan's and
Turkmenistan's oil exports. Bush43 administration officials scurry to
meetings with Armenian and Azeri diplomats, seeking peace, seeking to
make the region secure so that the trans-Caspian oil pipeline can be
built. CIA/FBI continue to do nothing about terrorist threat to
domestic security even in the wake of the attack on the USS Cole, even
in light of all the published evidence from the embassy bombing
trials. Curious? Enron expresses interest in a trans
Afghanistan/Pakistan gas pipeline to India. Terrorists kill about
5,000 people at WTC et al. Congress enjoys a Gulf of Tonkin moment.
Bush 43 voted dictatorial powers to prosecute an indefinite war;
anywhere he chooses, against a pronoun, Them. Bush 43 freezes the
assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding names. All Americans
are relieved knowing that Osama's funding sources have dried up. Bush
43 exacerbates the WTC terror attack economic losses by repeatedly
uttering frightening and inane phrases such as, "smoke him out", "dead
or alive", "crusade", and "infinite justice". Osama begins to quake
in his boots. Bush 43 achieves a trillion dollar loss in one day in
equity value, an all time, world record. Bush 43 continues to parody
Bush 41 and causes a recession, first one since Bush 41 was
demonstrating his astute leadership skills. Americans respond to
polls saying that they are 90% in favor of Bush 43. Bush 43 closets
himself with his advisors seeking 100% endorsement by the American
public. More scare language, a public burning of the Constitution,
internment camps for the ACLU and computer hackers, and removal of
plastic "silverware" from the Library of Congress and all grade school
cafeterias are advised; the secret policy package is reduced to a few
zippy talking points and labeled "Complete Success" to get the CIA on
board. Bush 43's defense experts focus efforts solely on crushing
Afghanistan, cowing Pakistan, and occupying the Central Asian FSRs.
Bush 43 spends his nights reading Winston Churchill's memoirs on the
finer points about "draining the swamps", combating Maoist tactics,
and herding women and children from the villages into concentration
camps with wafts of poison gas sprayed by crop dusters (opps, sorry,
that last was a page from British history in Iraq, er, er, or was it
Mussolini's crusade against the Amharics, or both). Well you can see
now the problem: Loose lips sink ships. Americans you'd all be safe
in the hands of Il Duce, if we could just make people like Jorn Barger
stop pushing their "agendas" on the Internet.
Marc McCune
Federal building bombing by Timothy McVeigh. The implication was that the
FBI either had forwarning of the bombing, or were the actual bombers. We
chalk this up to anti-government conspiracy theory.
--
Marc McCune
mcc...@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4660 (www neighborhood)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marc-views (Marc's Newsgroup)
/- Marc's MP3.com radio stations -/
Marc's B Side -- http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/159/marcs_b_side.html
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
corrected. I'll try to delete the one with the  s. Hasn't MS
ever heard of plain text!
Hank Oredson
"Liam G" <.@.> wrote in message
>
> "Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:HNqs7.11286$3d2.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Because:
> >
> > 1) His "evidence" is incorrect, as has been pointed out many times.
>
> but if they are incorrect then identify the incorrect evidence.
Did. Already. Several times. So did others.
The number is 133.
Many places to verify, try Reuters.
> > 2) He continues to post the same lies over and over.
>
> Maybe he doesn't feel he is being heard ?
You don't read the replies?
> > 3) It is directed only at one specific country.
>
> Why would that be a problem? Israel without doubt have the capability to do
> it along with many nations single headedly.
Do what? Falsify counts?
What other nation do you claim falsified counts?
> >
> > Perhaps one might wonder why he did not post the same
> > incorrect "counts" of British citizens killed or missing?
> >
>
> Is the British count as wide of the Israeli mark?
"Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
Look it up yourself.
I did, but I will not do your homework for you.
Hank Oredson
"Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence" <lawre...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com...
> jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
>
> >
> > So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
> >
> This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
> Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
> headed for the White House. Or the lie that the terrorists are
> attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
> These remind me of the Gulf War lies; e.g., that Saddam was not
> invited to do as he wished with Kuwait by the Bush administration, or
> that the Patriot missiles were 98% effective; or that the Iraqis stole
> all the infant incubators in Kuwait. (Truth: Bush administration
> said, "It's a purely Arab affair"; the Patriots were about 3%
> effective and falling Patriot junk posed a bigger threat to the
> Israelis than did the scuds from Iraq; and the incubator story was
> dreamed up by an American PR firm for the Kuwaiti embassy and
> propagated by Congress persons who knew a priori that it was a lie.)
>
> > _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
> >
> Indeed the number of Israelis admitted to be present (Is it 4 or 6?)
> is surprisingly low by one if not two orders of magnitude.
It is 133 as of today.
Hank Oredson
> My apologies for the  s. Read the next last post above. It is
> corrected. I'll try to delete the one with the  s. Hasn't MS
> ever heard of plain text!
Yes it has. You would have to learn how to use your tools though.
Current estimates for WTC only. (Source: Reuters). Includes both those
missing and those confirmed dead
Antigua/Barbuda 3
Argentina 5
Australia 55
Austria 15
Bahamas 1
Bangladesh 55
Barbados 3
Belarus 2
Belgium 3
Belize 4
Brazil 8
Canada 63
Chile 1
China 4
Colombia 208
Costa Rica 1
Czech Republic 10
Denmark 1
Dominican Republic 25
Egypt 4
El Salvador 71
Finland 1
France 10
Germany 100
Ghana 1
Greece 40
Guatemala 6
Honduras 7
India 250
Indonesia 1
Iran 5
Israel 133
Italy 38
Jamaica 7
Japan 23
Jordan 2
Kenya 1
Lebanon 5
Mexico 17
Netherlands 3
New Zealand 1
Nigeria 94
Pakistan 200
Panama 3
Paraguay 1
Peru 3
Poland 30
Portugal 4
Republic of Ireland 44
Russia 96
Slovakia 10
South Africa 6
South Korea 30
Sri Lanka 1
St. Lucia 1
Switzerland 106
Taiwan 7
Trinidad/Tobago 4
Turkey 1
UK 250
Ukraine 1
USA 4237
Venezuala 3
Yemen 8
A total of 6,333 people. One third are non-US citizens.
Liam G
>
> "Liam G" <.@.> wrote in message
> news:4ars7.3299$Vj1.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> >
> > "Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:HNqs7.11286$3d2.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > Because:
> > >
> > > 1) His "evidence" is incorrect, as has been pointed out many times.
> >
> > but if they are incorrect then identify the incorrect evidence.
>
> Did. Already. Several times. So did others.
> The number is 133.
> Many places to verify, try Reuters.
>
> > > 2) He continues to post the same lies over and over.
> >
> > Maybe he doesn't feel he is being heard ?
>
> You don't read the replies?
It was a suggestion not an answer, some people are not happy until they have
converted at least a few to their way of thinking
>
> > > 3) It is directed only at one specific country.
> >
> > Why would that be a problem? Israel without doubt have the capability to
do
> > it along with many nations single headedly.
>
> Do what? Falsify counts?
> What other nation do you claim falsified counts?
I was refering to carrying out the attack, rather than falsify figures
>
> > >
> > > Perhaps one might wonder why he did not post the same
> > > incorrect "counts" of British citizens killed or missing?
> > >
> >
> > Is the British count as wide of the Israeli mark?
>
> "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
> Look it up yourself.
> I did, but I will not do your homework for you.
She would probably kick my ass being a black belt, and I havn't been in the
ring for a number of years now.
Again it was a suggestion, almost rhetorical suppose words can not support
gesture.
ni...@somewhere.invalid
>
> _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
I am on record on this newsgroup as naming Israel as prime suspect
on several occasions, going back to 12th September. They expected
to benefit from the bombing, and they have a long military track
record both of brilliantly executed operations and of unhesitating
readiness to bomb the innocent.
But this story doesn't support the evidence. Given 4000 people
working there (and we have to assume this if "4000 absent from
work" is to be considered significant), it is inconceivable that
more than a tiny number of them - if any - had advance knowledge
of the attack, or that more than a smallish minority could have
been warned off without arousing suspicion.
> The first says there were none, the second says there had been two, one
> of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other was on the
> 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
An insider could have arranged for employees of one company to be
elsewhere. But how many times would this have to be repeated to
begin to approach 4000?
Liam G
>
> It is 133 as of today.
I would personally like to know how on earth after ensuring all the Jewish
people not to be in the building, this was kept under wraps. Most of the
Jewish people I know are the biggest gossips. I am certain if they knew
anything they would like to ensure there friends were safe and thus the
information snowball rolls down the hill.
Roy Davis
actually worked there ? actual numbers not estimates.
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
news:klss7.11601$W8.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Roy Davis
that america was given ample warning of an emient attack by an IRAQI
terrorist organisation by the Israeli's. ( thank your government for not
taking it to seriously)
If the israelis where planning an atack why give notice ? and why idenify
other people as being respnbile. Especially when an active government would
have immediately investigated a claim.
and why attack the taleban when you where told before the incident that
other sources may be the aggressors. ( hidden aggenda time for the
government here I think)
Liam G
little don't you think I would want to make it like someone else did it.
"Roy Davis" <dark...@i4free.co.nz> wrote in message
news:9otmcd$n0h$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
Hank Oredson
You don't have to register at the door to enter a public building.
We don't keep track of everyone's religion.
So of course there cannot be a count of "Jews working at WTC".
Wonder how many Iowans worked at WTC?
--
... Hank
Let loose the cats of war,
sleek and fast and strong.
They will seek and kill,
the evil we have found.
"Roy Davis" <dark...@i4free.co.nz> wrote in message
news:9otm2s$mvo$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
Roy Davis
this make it a defunct conversation ?
and anyway Im gussing that the inland revenue department (or what ever the
america equiliant is) could tell you, as they do monitor where people work.
Roy Davis
just to add I think it was about a fortnight before hand that the warning
was given, and the terorist involved (and other known terrorists) where put
on alert for enterinng or leaving the country. But entered anyway... big
mistake there. and proceeded with there plans.
but those terrorists had no ties with Israel, and being on polar points of
veiws I dont see them teaming up to quick.
"Liam G" <.@.> wrote in message
news:5gts7.4439$Vj1.6...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Craig Kling
"Jorn Barger" <jo...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:1f0c6de.1bba9p5cwre0jN%jo...@enteract.com...
> [Please feel free to repost this widely.]
>
> report began to circulate on the Internet, usually titled "4,000 Israeli
> Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack". It was apparently first
> posted at paknews.com:
> http://paknews.com/flash.php?id=27&date1=2001-09-18
> but attributed there to Al-Manar Television, Beirut, Lebanon, who
> themselves sourced it to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper.
>
> By 20 Sept this report had been reposted hundreds of times:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=watan&as_drrb=b&as_mind=18&as_minm=
> 9&as_miny=2001&as_maxd=20&as_maxm=9&as_maxy=2001&num=100&as_scoring=d
>
> But on the evening of 20 Sept, President Bush addressed a television
> audience estimated at 82 million, and said:
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html
>
> "Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with
> our own: dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than
> 250 citizens of India..."
>
> Those hundreds of Internet flamewars were immediately, effectively
> quenched. But almost no one noticed, two days later, when the NY Times
> quietly published a retraction of that 'more than 130' figure:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/22/nyregion/22NUMB.html
Idiot! Jew is not even mentioned in that article. It is not relevan to
your sprios claim.
> or
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=c0c6feba.0109220447.4d00e6ce%40post
> ing.google.com
Message id or article number c0c6feba.0109220447.4d00e6ce@post not
found.
>
> "There were, in fact, only three Israelis who had been confirmed as
> dead: two on the planes and another who had been visiting the towers
> on business and who was identified and buried."
Cite, asshole.
>
> So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
Idiot. Where is you evidence for your conclusion?
>
> And not only was this retraction buried so deeply that it went virtually
> unnoticed, it's also wrapped in doubletalk about duplicate reports and
> missing vs confirmed-dead, clearly intended to convey the impression
> that this was an innocent error. But a review of the Jerusalem Post's
> coverage of the tragedy makes the 'innocent error' claim highly
> implausible:
>
>
> By the morning of 12 Sept, two Israeli airline passengers were being
> named, while those reported missing numbered 4000 (probably the main
> source of the original rumor):
> http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/News/News.34692.html
Liar. What is mentioned was that many in the vicinity.
>
> By that afternoon, one report claimed four missing:
> www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34702.html
> dropping that night to three:
> http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34747.html
>
> The next morning (13th) there was a jump in the number still missing:
> www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.34760.html
> that mentions six who might have been in the immediate vicinity, and 40
> in the general neighborhood. (These were obviously names that had been
> called in, that still needed to be tracked down.)
>
> And that afternoon these numbers were lowered to four and four:
> www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.34823.html
>
> On the 14th, the number believed _in_ the WTC was upped to eight:
> www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/14/LatestNews/LatestNews.34854.html
> while the number of names to be traced jumped dramatically to 150.
I got tired of looking at those sites. Nothing abuot them is very
impressive. Are you conting on posting so much bullshit to make it a real
chore for folks to debnk you crap that has been debnked repeatedly?
>
> But then the Post falls silent, as far as I can trace, until the 20th,
> when four names are cited in an article titled "Foreign Ministry hoping
> to hear from remaining Israelis":
> http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/main/results.html?QryTxt=shefi
> (This article is not available for free, so I don't know what number it
> offers for those 'remaining'.)
Then why bother folks with it?
Post your goddamned evidence and don't expect folks to pay to see it.
>
> The NY Times retraction of 22 Sept says:
>
> "Over the last several days, the city's list of the missing became
> inflated by what officials said were missing persons reports from
> consulates and embassies for countries including India and Israel."
>
> So in the first two days, by the 13th, the consulate had reduced a list
> of 4000 missing to three missing. Then 150 more names appeared on the
> 14th, but surely these too must have been relentlessly investigated-- so
> one does indeed wonder why the Jerusalem Post lost all interest in the
> progress of the list for the next week.
"But today, Alon Pinkas, Israel's consul general here, said that lists of
the missing included reports from people who had called in because, for
instance, relatives in New York had not returned their phone calls from
Israel. There were, in fact, only three Israelis who had been confirmed as
dead: two on the planes and another who had been visiting the towers on
business and who was identified and buried."
It really does not spport your bullshit all that well if you do not pick
and choose what to quote and what to ignore.
>
> And then somehow around the 18th or 19th, as the conspiracy rumor was
> taking off in a very dangerous way, this 'inflated' list-- which had
> mysteriously only shrunk from 150 to 130 in five days-- this list was
> mistakenly delivered to the City of New York, where it was mysteriously
> mistaken for a list of confirmed dead. And then, out of all the 80
> countries that Bush might have singled out for recognition, he happened
> to choose this 4500% error to emphasize before all those 82 million
> television viewers...
See above, moron. It is only mysterios in your own head.
>
> And then, of course, the retraction was mysteriously buried.
Was it?
>
>
> So what are we to make of this?
You are a bigoted, Jew hating idiot?
>
>
> _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
I've seen some other conspiracy theories that present better evidence
than yours that the FBI, CIA, US military, intelligence of other contries
and maybe eve Toy-R-Us had advance warning.
>
>
> Two Post articles from 13 Sept give contradictory reports of Israeli
> businesses in the WTC:
> http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34747.html
> http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34749.html
>
> The first says there were none, the second says there had been two, one
> of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other was on the
> 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
So, a business moved and all the employees for some company were not
present?
I'd bet that there were a lot of companies all of whose employees were
not present.
Maybe there is some conspiracy with some company that had hundreds of
employees and they all got out.
>
> So if Bush hadn't presented that wildly exaggerated claim, the rumors
> would have been much harder to quash. And this seems especially
> sinister to me because of this wider context:
It seems that way to you.
>
> - Israel would love more US help in fighting its war against 'Islamic
> terrorism'
Sure they would.
>
> - many US Jews have a divided allegiance between Israel and the US
Of course. You ought to check the attitdes of some Mexicans I have
known.
>
> - many powerful figures in the media and government share this divided
> allegiance, but this is almost never declared openly
LOL - Name them. Name some of them.
What made you privy to sch information anyway?
>
> - the US media have a virtual blackout on explaining what the Islamic
> grievances are (I understand CNN recently banned even the term
> 'settlements')
You have a point. Bush's bullshit about "They hate freedom" is not
entirely untrue, perhaps. It is just bullshit pablum fed to the public sheep
to avoid any hint that US foreign policy may have fertilized the roots of
that terrorism business.
I'd even expect that some Israelis might resent the realization that US
don't give so much shit for them as the use that US makes of them as a foot
in that part of the world.
>
> - the US media never mention the staggering degree of bigotry in
> orthodox Judaism (in a recent Post story, orthodox Jews were
> unwilling to ride in a taxi _driven_ by a non-Jew without a rabbi's
> approval!?)
So? There are plenty assholes of any group of humans. Look at you.
>
> So our current situation is that we're quite possibly being dragged into
> World War III by undeclared agents of a foreign government, in defense
> of a fundamentalist religion we're not allowed to criticise (or even
> understand), for a nation that scorns international law... and that now
> _appears_ to have taken advantage of our national tragedy to advance
> their selfish agenda.
May well be. I've seen better evidence presented by flipping paranoids
that there are government agents wearing goggles and hiding in the trees.
(That is what staying awake too long on stimulants will do for one)
>
> Here's what I think the American people deserve, at minimum:
>
> - a credible accounting for the mysterious inflated list-- what was on
> it, why was it so long, how did it get misdelivered
That seems to have been well explained as it went. And there is better
and more interesting evidence that there were all sorts of other malign
forces behind the whole affair. I've heard that it may have even been some
Islamic Zealots contributed much to it.
>
> - a public apology for the appearance of cynical opportunism
Eh?
Do you mean such opportunism as assholes like yourself using any
fucking event that comes along to slander the Jews?
Idiots like yourself who would come up with all this Jew hating
slander crap actually distract folks from some actual Israeli indescretions
in their dealings over there.
>
> - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
Fuck you. Wait until the body count is done an take it upon yourself to
discover how many Israelis actually worked there and how many Jews did not
go to work that day. - And Jews in general. Or do you think that Israelis
give a shit about American Jews?
>
> and most importantly:
>
> - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
> sides so that people can make an informed decision
May we kick the shit out of and expel assholes, such as yourself, who
present spurious evidence of bullshit?
I'm mostly a peacable sort but I'd enjoy to attend the spanking of a
brat like yourself.
I'd bet you are really noisy to be arong too.
Craig Kling
> jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
Much promotion of some of these conspiracy theories are likely something
that is going to close a lot of ears to hearing more reasonable folks
attempting to tell some truths and point out some distortions.
Something you said brought that to mind. The post was long so I just
snipped the works.
But I do think that intelligent scoundrels of the-powers-that-be would
not be above feeding out and promoting great amounts of
information/disinformation rumors and plausible bullshit to OD the folks and
build a resistance to listening.
If them powers-that-be had a hand in the affair they may even put out
some almost plausible stories accusing themselves among the rest of the
crap.
Craig Kling
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
news:klss7.11601$W8.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I didn't see any Lithuanians on the list. They must have known got all
their people out.
I hear so little about them that I'm suspicious they must be up to
something.
Liam G
"Craig Kling" <sun...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:9otpme$f4uq0$1...@ID-31769.news.dfncis.de...
I see no Andorrans (if that is what you refer to a person from Andorra as )
on there either along with Vatican's.
Hank Oredson
Internal Revenue Service.
They do not know a person's religion.
Hank Oredson
"Craig Kling" <sun...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:9otpme$f4uq0$1...@ID-31769.news.dfncis.de...
>
Nor Latvians.
My wife was born in Riga, perhaps she knows something.
Roy Davis
Bloodshed
I've no doubt that many have a hidden agenda when they do, but discrediting
them with insults only makes their point look clearer.
Indigo Reactor <ind...@nospam.majid.abelgratis.net> wrote in message
news:3bb2...@runswick.octacon.co.uk...
> At least the Jorn Barger included hypertext references to back up his
> points.
> Those who shout him down provide no evidence, only insults.
> If you want to discredit Jorn Barger by providing evidence, please do.
> But trying to discredit your opponents by simply accusing them of
> anti-semitism is lazy, deceitful, and disgusting to all fair-minded
people.
>
>
>
> Dan Nelson <dne...@black-hole.com> wrote in message
> news:3BB20BD8...@black-hole.com...
> > Yeah. And what's all this gobbletygook about 6,000 dead, when only a
> > couple hundred are *confirmed*?! Obviously, America has overstated
> > their casualties, which is proof that we did this. We should begin
> > carpet-bombing of Kansas immediately in retaliation.
> >
> > > or
> > >
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=c0c6feba.0109220447.4d00e6ce%40post
> > > ing.google.com
> > >
> > > "There were, in fact, only three Israelis who had been confirmed
as
> > > dead: two on the planes and another who had been visiting the
towers
> > > on business and who was identified and buried."
> > >
> > > So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
> > >
> > > And not only was this retraction buried so deeply that it went
virtually
> > > unnoticed, it's also wrapped in doubletalk about duplicate reports and
> > > missing vs confirmed-dead, clearly intended to convey the impression
> > > that this was an innocent error. But a review of the Jerusalem Post's
> > > coverage of the tragedy makes the 'innocent error' claim highly
> > > implausible:
> > >
> > > By the morning of 12 Sept, two Israeli airline passengers were being
> > > named, while those reported missing numbered 4000 (probably the main
> > > source of the original rumor):
> > > http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/News/News.34692.html
> > >
> > > By that afternoon, one report claimed four missing:
> > > www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34702.html
> > > dropping that night to three:
> > > http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34747.html
> > >
> > > The next morning (13th) there was a jump in the number still missing:
> > > www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.34760.html
> > > that mentions six who might have been in the immediate vicinity, and
40
> > > in the general neighborhood. (These were obviously names that had
been
> > > called in, that still needed to be tracked down.)
> > >
> > > And that afternoon these numbers were lowered to four and four:
> > > www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/LatestNews/LatestNews.34823.html
> > >
> > > On the 14th, the number believed _in_ the WTC was upped to eight:
> > > www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/14/LatestNews/LatestNews.34854.html
> > > while the number of names to be traced jumped dramatically to 150.
> > >
> > > But then the Post falls silent, as far as I can trace, until the 20th,
> > > when four names are cited in an article titled "Foreign Ministry
hoping
> > > to hear from remaining Israelis":
> > > http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/main/results.html?QryTxt=shefi
> > > (This article is not available for free, so I don't know what number
it
> > > offers for those 'remaining'.)
> > >
> > > The NY Times retraction of 22 Sept says:
> > >
> > > "Over the last several days, the city's list of the missing became
> > > inflated by what officials said were missing persons reports from
> > > consulates and embassies for countries including India and
Israel."
> > >
> > > So in the first two days, by the 13th, the consulate had reduced a
list
> > > of 4000 missing to three missing. Then 150 more names appeared on the
> > > 14th, but surely these too must have been relentlessly investigated--
so
> > > one does indeed wonder why the Jerusalem Post lost all interest in the
> > > progress of the list for the next week.
> > >
> > > And then somehow around the 18th or 19th, as the conspiracy rumor was
> > > taking off in a very dangerous way, this 'inflated' list-- which had
> > > mysteriously only shrunk from 150 to 130 in five days-- this list was
> > > mistakenly delivered to the City of New York, where it was
mysteriously
> > > mistaken for a list of confirmed dead. And then, out of all the 80
> > > countries that Bush might have singled out for recognition, he
happened
> > > to choose this 4500% error to emphasize before all those 82 million
> > > television viewers...
> > >
> > > And then, of course, the retraction was mysteriously buried.
> > >
> > > So what are we to make of this?
> > >
> > > _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
> > >
> > > Two Post articles from 13 Sept give contradictory reports of Israeli
> > > businesses in the WTC:
> > > http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34747.html
> > > http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34749.html
> > >
> > > The first says there were none, the second says there had been two,
one
> > > of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other was on
the
> > > 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
> > >
> > > So if Bush hadn't presented that wildly exaggerated claim, the rumors
> > > would have been much harder to quash. And this seems especially
> > > sinister to me because of this wider context:
> > >
> > > - Israel would love more US help in fighting its war against 'Islamic
> > > terrorism'
> > >
> > > - many US Jews have a divided allegiance between Israel and the US
> > >
> > > - many powerful figures in the media and government share this divided
> > > allegiance, but this is almost never declared openly
> > >
> > > - the US media have a virtual blackout on explaining what the Islamic
> > > grievances are (I understand CNN recently banned even the term
> > > 'settlements')
> > >
> > > - the US media never mention the staggering degree of bigotry in
> > > orthodox Judaism (in a recent Post story, orthodox Jews were
> > > unwilling to ride in a taxi _driven_ by a non-Jew without a rabbi's
> > > approval!?)
> > >
> > > So our current situation is that we're quite possibly being dragged
into
> > > World War III by undeclared agents of a foreign government, in defense
> > > of a fundamentalist religion we're not allowed to criticise (or even
> > > understand), for a nation that scorns international law... and that
now
> > > _appears_ to have taken advantage of our national tragedy to advance
> > > their selfish agenda.
> > >
> > > Here's what I think the American people deserve, at minimum:
> > >
> > > - a credible accounting for the mysterious inflated list-- what was on
> > > it, why was it so long, how did it get misdelivered
> > >
> > > - a public apology for the appearance of cynical opportunism
> > >
> > > - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
> > >
> > > and most importantly:
> > >
> > > - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
> > > sides so that people can make an informed decision
> > >
Hank Oredson
> only one new zealand but then he might have been a spy ;)
But 55 Aussies ... what WERE they doing here, so many of them?
Craig Kling
> then if no one actually know how many jewish people where there then dosen
> this make it a defunct conversation ?
I've noticed them bigots will sometimes argue Jews or sometimes argue
Israelis. Depends on what fits the agenda of the moment.
It is damned likely that a very lot of American citizens who are Jews
worked there. I gather that there wasn't a lot of Israelis who worked there.
I did see an interview that there was an Israeli business there that had
about 200 employees. I guess their moving to a lower rent area a few weeks
ago is evidence of something.
The fellow said he was not aware if there were other Israeli companies
in the place.
I'd suppose if their was a "Jew" company in the place they might have
gotten busted for discrimination.
Some foreigners might can hire all their own people if they wish.
Roy Davis
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
news:uXvs7.11914$W8.10...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jorn Barger
> Current estimates for WTC only. (Source: Reuters). Includes both those
> missing and those confirmed dead
Since you're lying, you prefer not to post URLs. Since I'm telling the
truth, here's a URL that proves this list dates from 20 Sept (2 days
before the NYT retraction):
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&th=e458251ad726ae1d&rnum=9
The 22Sept NYT article (one-line url):
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&th=9781a10663dd9485&rnum=3
And here's the start of Hank's disinfo list again, for comparison:
Boing
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
news:uXvs7.11914$W8.10...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jorn Barger
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence <lawre...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Americans, especially when whipped into a xenophobic fury, are suckers
> willing to believe the most incredible lies and distortions.
> Admittedly, most have little time to study the matter, and most are
> undereducated about the world, but most could, if they took the time
> to add 2 plus 2 and think a bit about what they are being told, see
> through the lies of the administration (e.g., that AF1 and the White
> House were under attack on September 11).
If you notice, they can't even read Usenet posts all the way thru!
There was a great example of argument-via-Flash-animation that I linked
a few months back. That might be something to try: "An Animated History
of US Imperialism."
> > - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
> Yes, where did the tens or hundreds of Israelis in the WTC vanish to
> before 845 am on September 11?
This is suspicious, but not damning.
> The British were double-dealing, imperialistic, bastards
(But, hey... Kate Bush!)
> America tells Iraq's Saddam Hussein that, "It's a purely Arab affair."
How could Saddam have believed this?
> Bush destroys Kuwait's oil fields
This reads to me like the spite of the loser (ie, Saddam), not the
tactics of an oilman. You don't burn your own money to teach someone a
lesson!
> The CIA keeps warning us about terrorism but no measures are taken to
> protect Americans.
I'll have to think about this idea some more.
You can't anticipate the enemy unless you can think like the enemy, and
since everyone in the CIA has to pretend the terrorists are drooling
fanatics, they probably couldn't 'sell' a complicated plan of defense--
it would imply the terrorists were rational beings, which is taboo...?
> Enron, probably violating US antitrust laws, fucks all the Californians
> by fixing the price of electricity and causing rolling blackouts.
He's a mean one, Mr Grinch...
> Enron designs a trans-Caspian oil pipeline to deprive the Russians
> from getting a share of the loot from Kazakhstan's and Turkmenistan's
> oil exports.
Isn't an oil pipeline the most vulnerable target imaginable? How can
they think they'll make money on it... unless they just kill everybody?
> Bush 43 freezes the assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding
> names.
(Overstated, surely?)
> All American's are relieved knowing that Osama's funding
> sources have dried up.
Where did I just read that ObL has hundreds of Arabic oil millionaires
funneling him money? Counterpunch.com ?
> Bush 43 exacerbates the WTC terror attack economic losses by repeatedly
> uttering frightening and inane phrases such as, 'smoke him out', 'dead or
> alive', 'crusade', and 'infinite justice'.
I think Reuters was right to drop the word 'terrorist'-- it aggravates
the fear. But W's handlers are just trying to spin it as a Western,
trying to take advantage of his strong points. They're sure to get
better.
> Bush 43 continues to parody Bush 41 and causes a recession
The Dow was due for a 50% decline, based purely on macro-economics. I
have no idea what was still holding it up-- the financial lobby no
doubt, somehow.
> More scare language, a public burning of the Constitution, internment
> camps for the ACLU and computer hackers,
(Who's scarin' who, now?)
The Supreme Court is only moderately corrupted.
> and removal of plastic 'silverware' from the Library of Congress and all
> grade school cafeterias are advised
Have they mentioned safety razors yet? ("Go electric or grow a beard!")
Formatting tips:
- shorter paragraphs (and simpler style)
- in your 'preferences' turn off 'smart quotes' (or something like that)
And are you interested in the _ancient_ history of the middle east?
(I'm working my way forward, but am only to 1000 BC, so WWI-reference
make my brain ache.)
Mohawk
Now I am confused
Jorn Barger
> > that america was given ample warning of an emient attack by an IRAQI
> > terrorist organisation by the Israeli's. ( thank your government for not
> > taking it to seriously)
I saw a CIA denial they ever got a warning.
Liam G
> > > also one that sticks in my mind is a british report I saw in the
newspaper
> > > that america was given ample warning of an emient attack by an IRAQI
> > > terrorist organisation by the Israeli's. ( thank your government for
not
> > > taking it to seriously)
>
> I saw a CIA denial they ever got a warning.
Well thats it then they could not of been warned ;-)
Jorn Barger
> > I saw a CIA denial they ever got a warning.
> Well thats it then they could not of been warned ;-)
Roy was arguing the Israelis couldn't have done it because they tried to
warn us.
Hank Oredson
Note the same 133 from Israel on both lists.
Quite a bit different than your nonesense spew about Israel..
But go ahead and quibble about the other differences in
the lists if you like. They have nothing to do with my point.
Also note the other differences in the lists. Just the WTC,
or the WTC plus Pentagon, or WTC plus Pentagon plus
those on the four airplanes. What is your point in quibbling
about exact number (other than Israel, where you posted
antisemitic disinformation)?
plonk
--
... Hank
Let loose the cats of war,
sleek and fast and strong.
They will seek and kill,
the evil we have found.
"Jorn Barger" <jo...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:1f0dle5.1dytffpd3u5pxN%jo...@enteract.com...
> Hank Oredson <hore...@att.net> wrote:
> > Current estimates for WTC only. (Source: Reuters). Includes both those
> > missing and those confirmed dead
>
> Since you're lying, you prefer not to post URLs. Since I'm telling the
> truth, here's a URL that proves this list dates from 20 Sept (2 days
> before the NYT retraction):
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&th=e458251ad726ae1d&rnum=9
Which list says (note the same 133 from Israel):
Country Number
Antigua/Barbuda 3
Argentina 5
Australia 55
Austria 1 confirmed dead, 26 missing
Bahamas 1
Bangladesh 55
Barbados 3
Belarus 1 to 3
Belgium 1 to 4
Belize 4
Brazil 8
Britain 200 to 300
Burundi 1
Canada 3 confirmed dead, up to 75 missing
Chile 1
China 4
Colombia 208
Costa Rica 1
Denmark 1
Dominican Republic 25
Ecuador 34
Egypt 4 (believed to be more)
El Salvador 71
Finland 50
France 10
Germany 4 dead, 96 missing
Ghana 1
Greece 30 to 50 (may include Greek Americans)
Guatemala 6
Honduras 7
India 250
Iran 5
Ireland 4 confirmed dead, up to 40 missing
Israel 133
Italy 38 (may include Italian-Americans)
Jamaica 7
Japan 23
Jordan 2
Kenya 1
Lebanon 4 (1 suspected of carrying out attacks)
Mexico 17
Netherlands 3 confirmed dead, some estimates put missing at about 400
New Zealand 1
Nigeria No official number, but Nigerian press reporting 94 missing
Pakistan 200
Panama 3
Paraguay 1
Peru 3
Poland 30
Portugal 4
Russia 96
Slovakia 10
South Korea 30
South Africa 6
Sri Lanka 1
St. Lucia 1
Switzerland 6 confirmed dead, up to 100 missing
Taiwan 7
Trinidad/Tobago 4
Turkey 1
Ukraine 1
Venezuela 3
Yemen 8
Jorn Barger
> I posted the actual lists below.
Indeed, I missed some differences. Blame it on at least twenty minutes
of unproductive search, because you gave no URL-- which you still
haven't, so I have no reason to believe your list is current.
Eric Chomko
[...]
: >
: > - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
: > sides so that people can make an informed decision
: Yes, there is a crying need for this. As a professor at AUC in Cairo
: (1984-5) I studied the matter carefully and since then have carefully
: watched US policy re the subject. It is a matter of historical
: record, plain to anyone who wants to look into it, that American
: policy in the Levant has been a continuation of the British policy
: established at the 1919 Paris peace conference. To wit, a policy of
: balkanization of the Arab homeland maintained by fomenting continual
: instability and bickering between the fragmented states of the region.
: Whenever the Americans have spoken of a peace initiative it has been
: 100% disingenuous. Recently, America has been pushing Israel’s
: apartheid solution. A solution akin to that which
: “solved” the South African racial problems in 1948. There
: is no fundamental difference between the American/Israeli program of
: herding Palestinians into “enclaves” and the all-American
: program of herding First Nations Natives into Indian Reservations in
: the United States to end the Indian Wars. Both are at root genocidal
: solutions to a cultural problem motivated by settlers’ greed to
: steal the land and resources of the natives.
But today its oil. The sooner find an alternate form of energy the better.
: The problem is compounded by the oil resources of the region. The
No, that is THE problem, coupled with greed.
: British were motivated by the need to protect their Suez route to
: India and their BP-owned (half crown-, half-capitalist owned) oil
: wells near the Persian Gulf. In the 20s the British employed an
: organized crime family from central Arabia (Nejd) to overthrow the
: sharif of Mecca, Hussein. Hussein had been promised an Arab homeland,
: comprising the Ottoman empire’s Arab territories (all of the
: Arabian peninsula, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan). The British
: were double-dealing, imperialistic, bastards (I know that’s
: redundant). So the GodFather of this criminal clan, Ibn Saud, did
: what he was paid to do and chased Hussein out of the Islamic holy
: cities of Mecca and Medina. He tried to advance northward but the
: British stopped him near Aqaba in Jordan, and at the Red Line they
: hurriedly drew on a map to define Kuwait. But Ibn Saud did capture
: the seemingly worthless Shiite territory called al Hasa on the Persian
: Gulf. Bingo, oil was found by American prospectors. Pre WWII
: Standard Oil of California (now Chevron) and The Texas Oil Company
: (now Texaco) formed Caltex and created the Arab-American Oil Company
: (Aramco). Jack Philby, a renegade British foreign service officer,
: taught Ibn Saud that he needed friends in high places in order to cash
: in on this oil wealth. So the Saudi family stole all the oil in
: Arabia, from the Arabians, and then made sweetheart deals with
: American firms to export it to world. Meanwhile, the Americans and BP
: wheeled and dealed and double dealed with the Iraqis to suppress
: Iraq’s oil output, somewhat successfully. And, when post WWII
: Persia became democratic, America had the CIA overthrown its
: government and install a puppet dictator from the Pahlavi family, more
: or less creating another totalitarian police state on the model of
: that in Arabia. Fastforward to the end of the cold war. Shah Pahlavi
: is already overthrown, and dies an exile in Texas. Iran and Iraq
Wait, the end of the Cold War was 1979? You lost a decade in there by
my calculations. Otherwise your history is quite similar to what I read in
the book, "Farewell America" by James Hepburn (1968). I have no reason to
doubt you or FA.
: start to crank up oil production. The Saudi’s give their
: Chevron and Texaco buddies (to whom they are absolutely tied by the
: incredibly lucrative contract giving the Saudis de jure control of
: Aramco) an even sweeter oil price arrangement. Reagan becomes
This "Power Elite" lives and breathes by oil. They literally ARE the
Shadow Government or Secret Team (latter coined by L. Fletcher Prouty)
that runs the US.
: increasingly demented; the CIA/Bechtel nexus (Bush, Schultz,
: Weinberger) become increasingly bold; AWACs planes go to the Saudis;
: Saudis purchase billions in American-made weapons. Kuwait’s al
: Sabah family schemes to cut all foreigners out of getting profits from
: Kuwaiti oil. Kuwait starts to steal Iraqi oil. Iraq protests.
: America tell Iraq’s Saddam Hussein that, “It’s a
: purely Arab affair.” Saddam annexes Kuwait, once part of the
: Ottoman’s Mesopotamian province. Bush springs his trap. Bush
Didn't the Kuwaiti royal family actually leave Kuwait and go to the safety
of Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War?
: destroys Kuwait’s oil fields and teaches the al Sabah family the
: importance of having friends in high places. Bush embargos Iraq to
: keep Iraqi oil mostly shut in indefinitely. Saudi oil output more
: than doubles. The Bush/Bechtel nexus get fat rebuilding Kuwait.
That's "fatter."
: American oil firms get rich exporting Saudi oil. American taxpayers
Again, it's "richer."
: pay the bill and bury their dead. Clinton, who is CIA-compromised by
: involvement in drug running to the Contras, maintains the status quo
: for eight years. The CIA keeps warning us about terrorism but no
That compromise works both ways.
: measures are taken to protect Americans. Enron, a Texas based
: multinational energy conglomerate, helps finance Bush 43’s
: appointment to the Presidency. Enron, probably violating US anti
: trust laws, fucks all the Californians by fixing the price of
: electricity and causing rolling blackouts. California’s
: governor, Gray Davis, sues Enron et al for about $10 billion in
: rapacious over charges. Enron, Mobil, and Chevron become anxious
: about their decade-old contracts to export oil and gas from the Former
: Soviet Republics whose communist dictators gave them sweetheart deals
: arranged by the Bush41 administration’s cabinet members
: (Mosbacher and Baker) on their travels as oil industry frontmen.
: Enron designs a trans-Caspian oil pipeline to deprive the Russians
: from getting a share of the loot from Kazakhstan’s and
: Turkmenistan’s oil exports. Bush43 administration officials
: scurry to meetings with Armenian and Azeri diplomats, seeking peace,
: seeking to make the region secure so that the trans-Caspian oil
: pipeline can be built. CIA/FBI continue to do nothing about terrorist
: threat to domestic security even in the wake of the attack on the USS
: Cole, even in light of all the published evidence from the embassy
: bombing trials. Curious? Enron expresses interest in a trans
: Afghanistan/Pakistan gas pipeline to India. Terrorists kill about
: 5,000 people at WTC et al. Congress enjoys a Gulf of Tonkin moment.
: Bush 43 voted dictatorial powers to prosecute an indefinite war;
: anywhere he chooses, against a pronoun, Them. Bush 43 freezes the
: assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding names. All
: American’s are relieved knowing that Osama’s funding
ALL? I take exception to your sweeping statement! I for one will not feel
a little better until they get him.
: sources have dried up. Bush 43 exacerbates the WTC terror attack
: economic losses by repeatedly uttering frightening and inane phrases
: such as, “smoke him out”, “dead or alive”,
: “crusade”, and “infinite justice”. Osama
: begins to quake in his boots. Bush 43 achieves a trillion dollar loss
: in one day in equity value, an all time, world record. Bush 43
: continues to parody Bush 41 and causes a recession, first one since
: Bush 41 was demonstrating his astute leadership skills. Americans
: respond to polls saying that they are 90% in favor of Bush 43. Bush
: 43 closets himself with his advisors seeking 100% endorsement by the
: American public. More scare language, a public burning of the
: Constitution, internment camps for the ACLU and computer hackers, and
: removal of plastic “silverware” from the Library of
: Congress and all grade school cafeterias are advised; the secret
: policy package is reduced to a few zippy talking points and labeled
: “Complete Success” to get the CIA on board. Bush
: 43’s defense experts focus efforts solely on crushing
: Afghanistan, cowing Pakistan, and occupying the Central Asian FSRs.
Cowing Pakistan? It seems that they are sucking up with little or no
western effort. They WANT into our economic system. And as Churchill said,
sure it is a lousy system, but until someone comes up with a better one, I
think we should keep it."
: Bush 43 spends his nights reading Winston Churchill’s memoirs on
: the finer points about “draining the swamps”, combating
: Maoist tactics, and herding women and children from the villages into
: concentration camps with wafts of poison gas sprayed by crop dusters
: (opps, sorry, that last was a page from British history in Iraq, er,
: er, or was it Mussolini’s crusade against the Amharics, or
Bush read? No, his carrying of books around smacks of Clinton
photographed with the Bible (i.e. for show).
: both). Well you can see now the problem: Loose lips sink ships.
: Americans you’d all be safe in the hands of Il Duce, if we could
: just make people like Jorn Barger stop pushing their
: “agendas” on the Internet.
I don't follow the last part. Anyway, so what's next?
You seem to have spelled out the past fairly well and have an interesting
interpretation of the present. What does the future hold?
Eric
Eric Chomko
: corrected. I'll try to delete the one with the  s. Hasn't MS
: ever heard of plain text!
Yet another reason for them to defend their antitrust litigation! :)
Eric
Eric Chomko
: "Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote in message
: news:g2ss7.11584$W8.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
: >
: > It is 133 as of today.
: I would personally like to know how on earth after ensuring all the Jewish
: people not to be in the building, this was kept under wraps. Most of the
: Jewish people I know are the biggest gossips. I am certain if they knew
: anything they would like to ensure there friends were safe and thus the
: information snowball rolls down the hill.
I think you confuse Jewish-Americans (gossips) with Israelis (soldier
mentality).
Eric
Eric Chomko
: only one new zealand but then he might have been a spy ;)
That would imply that they had any "intelligence" at all!
Sorry, I couldn't resist such on opening. :)
Eric
Eric Chomko
: Hank Oredson <hore...@att.net> wrote:
: > Current estimates for WTC only. (Source: Reuters). Includes both those
: > missing and those confirmed dead
: Since you're lying, you prefer not to post URLs. Since I'm telling the
: truth, here's a URL that proves this list dates from 20 Sept (2 days
: before the NYT retraction):
: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&th=e458251ad726ae1d&rnum=9
: The 22Sept NYT article (one-line url):
: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&th=9781a10663dd9485&rnum=3
: And here's the start of Hank's disinfo list again, for comparison:
Looks the same as yours! From the first link.
Eric
: > Antigua/Barbuda 3
Eric Chomko
[...]
: The Supreme Court is only moderately corrupted.
On EXACTLY what do you base this statement on?
Eric
Eric Chomko
: > > also one that sticks in my mind is a british report I saw in the newspaper
: > > that america was given ample warning of an emient attack by an IRAQI
: > > terrorist organisation by the Israeli's. ( thank your government for not
: > > taking it to seriously)
: I saw a CIA denial they ever got a warning.
Of course. Reminds me of the FBI denials prior to the JFK assassination.
Eric
Eric Chomko
: "Liam G" <.@.> wrote:
: > > I saw a CIA denial they ever got a warning.
: Roy was arguing the Israelis couldn't have done it because they tried to
: warn us.
Only Mossad knows for sure.
Eric
Jorn Barger
> : The Supreme Court is only moderately corrupted.
> On EXACTLY what do you base this statement on?
Um, er... youthful naivete?
Paul Harper
The absolute corruption of the White House?
Paul.
--
A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
" . . . SFX is a fairly useless publication on just
about every imaginable front. Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so
little, with so much, for so long." JMS.
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
> > So what are we to make of this?
> >
> But this story doesn't support the evidence. Given 4000 people
> working there (and we have to assume this if "4000 absent from
> work" is to be considered significant), it is inconceivable that
> more than a tiny number of them - if any - had advance knowledge
> of the attack, or that more than a smallish minority could have
> been warned off without arousing suspicion.
>
> > The first says there were none, the second says there had been two, one
> > of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other was on the
> > 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
>
> elsewhere. But how many times would this have to be repeated to
> begin to approach 4000?
This is a very important and rational point. I think you have buried
the issue. Whether there was 4 or 4000 Israelis at WTC at 845 am on
9/11/2001 is a question that most likely leads nowhere.
However, that does not dismiss the important observation that the
Israelis gave NYC officials knowingly false data, and the White House,
an institution with presumably some access to "intelligent"
intelligence resources for fact checking, gave a major policy address
with false statistics. It's a good and important question whether
this was a lie told for "policy purposes" or an innocent mistake.
(Here I cannot help but recall the Clinton White House's faux pas of
printing invitations for the big Israeli/Arafat love fest, was it in
1993?, with the word Israel spelled "Isreal".)
What we do know as fact now is that the WH lied about being threatened
by a hijacked airplane on 9/11/2001, presumably to shield the POTUS
from criticisms of cowardice, such as that in the NYT by Safire. And
also we know the big lie that the WH has been repeating to the masses
about the terrorists attacking "our way of life", "democracy", "all
freedom-loving peoples", etc etc etc.
Anyone familiar with history, and anyone who has listened to Osama's
interview (e.g., Frontline, Esquire) knows that the three chief
policies that Osama & Arabian patriots, and the Egyptian Islamic
Brotherhood seek are: 1) US forces removed from Arabia, 2) End to US
policy of supporting Israel's plans for apartheid, and 3) End of US
support for the corrupt Egyptian dictator, Mubarak.
Beyond these policy changes, if successfully forced, Osama et al think
that they'll achieve: a) the overthrow of the Ibn Saud organized crime
family, b) democracy under Islamic sharia law as currently exists in
Iran, and c) an end to American multinational oil firms claiming about
20% of the value of their oil by force of arms.
This is the latter day piracy that R. Buckminster Fuller so eloquently
condemns in his Operation Manual for Spaceship Earth, "And because the
public had never known of them and had been fooled into thinking their
kingly stooges and local politicians as being in reality the head men,
society was and is as yet unaware either that the Great Pirates once
ran the world or that they are now utterly extinct. <paragraph.
break> Though the pirates are extinct, all of our international trade
balancing and money ratings, as well as all economic accounting, in
both capitalist and communistic countries, hold strictly to the rules,
value systems, terminology, and concepts established by those Great
Pirates." p 35, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1969.
Fuller thought that the GPs vanished in the crash of 1929. What he
did not know then, probably largely because Eisenhower was able to
hold them in check, and to bitterly complain about them in his
Farewell Address in 1961, coining the term Military Industrial
Complex.
As I have explained elsewhere in these groups, the origin of the
resurgence of the GPs, which I refer to as the CIA/Bechtel nexus and
other constructions, lies in the history of WWII through the national
security acts of 1947, which amongst other things re-instituted the
wartime OSS as the CIA. Since that time, under the phrase "national
security" the government, not the whole thing for sure, because there
are vastly more earnest public servants than there are predators on
the prowl in it, has used secrecy under the term "national security"
to shield both specific crimes (e.g., complicity in the murder of
500,000 Indonesians in 1965) and an on-going racket whereby the CIA et
al creates propitious opportunities for a small cadre of American
corporations, and the major (mostly Rockefeller controlled) oil firms
get together overseas, in violation of US anti-trust laws, and fix
both supply and price in the world oil markets.
The shock troops of this complex are a set of international
construction firms. Now mind you well that the vast majority of what
these businesses do is perfectly legal and most of it is arguably
beneficial to somebody's economy. Brown & Root owned LBJ in these
matters. Bechtel owned Reagan & Bush 41 in these matters.
Halliburton, the owners now of Brown & Root, owns Cheney & Bush 43 in
these matters. These firms swim symbiotically in a sea of bigger fish
with names like Chevron, Mobil, Enron, and Unocal. (When Powell uses
the Maoist expression, "Drain the swamp", it's too bad that it isn't
this one that he's referring to.)
The last gasp of legality was had in the US in 1958 when Eisenhower's
Justice Dept sought to prosecute these criminals. That year they were
blocked by the State Dept for vaguely specified reasons of "national
security." Since then America has passed RICO statutes that are
clearly applicable. And internationally a War Crimes tribunal has
been set up in The Hague. Americans ought to demand the use of these
tools to bring justice to the WTC II slaughter and straighten out
American policy both at home and abroad.
The only effect of government secrecy, whether in Stalinist Russia or
in America, is to shield specific crimes from prosecution, and to
enable an on-going racketeering complex to operate for the long term.
There is not one instance in which anything other than temporary
operationally specific secrecy can be shown to have benefited the
American people. Yet a plethora of crimes of property and crimes
against humanity are well known to have been committed and shielded
from prosecution by secrecy and so-called "national security."
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
> (Hi, Anthony. Sorry it took me so long to read your piece.)
>
> Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence <lawre...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> > Americans, especially when whipped into a xenophobic fury, are suckers
> > willing to believe the most incredible lies and distortions.
I apologise to you and all readers for being so "thick" both in number
of words and style. However, there is obviously a huge amount of data
that bears on these questions of war/peace/criminality/civil liberties
brought to the fore by the WTC II catastrophe. I will try to break up
my drafts into more paragraphs, and if I'm caught out on any matters
of spelling, grammar, or syntax (excepting the trivial) I'd like it
brought to my attention and I issue my apologies for my faults in
advance. I believe in Fowler and Gowers as my guides. If I were
writing for publication, that is for $$s, I'd carefully edit by overly
complex style. However, the good thing about the complex style is
that most dunces won't bother to dig in and fetch up the meaning.
...
> There was a great example of argument-via-Flash-animation that I linked
> a few months back. That might be something to try: "An Animated History
> of US Imperialism."
I'll look for it.
>
> > > - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
> > Yes, where did the tens or hundreds of Israelis in the WTC vanish to
> > before 845 am on September 11?
>
> This is suspicious, but not damning.
I commented on this in another post in this thread.
>
> > The British were double-dealing, imperialistic, bastards
>
> (But, hey... Kate Bush!)
My French wife cannot understand why I rue my English roots. Of
course, my Scotch, American, and Indian roots are probably equally
despicable.
>
> > America tells Iraq's Saddam Hussein that, "It's a purely Arab affair."
>
> How could Saddam have believed this?
>
Yes, I believe he did. Remember we're not dealing with Noam Chomsky's
IQ here. Saddam is an effective tyrant, and a true blue socialist
dictator, but he's a bit ham-headed when it comes to diplomacy.
> > Bush destroys Kuwait's oil fields
>
> This reads to me like the spite of the loser (ie, Saddam), not the
> tactics of an oilman. You don't burn your own money to teach someone a
> lesson!
>
I base my thesis on: a) the CIA pre-war assurances that Iraqi
explosives could not knock off the well heads more than about one
meter below the surface; b) High altitude bombing is a means to snap
the well heads ten or more meters underground, as was done. c) As I
have explained elsewhere, one of the American war objectives was to
destroy Kuwait so that they would henceforth adhere to the Saudi
doctrine of having friends in high places. d) I saw first hand the
ill equipped army of boys that Saddam left to be slaughtered in the
desert, I don't believe they had the time or materiel, or motive to
destroy the Kuwaiti wells; e) I have my son's eye witness account of
how terrorized the Iraqi soldiers were, and how easy it was to
slaughter them in huge numbers; f) American military lied about
everything else in the war from day one to present, so why ought I to
think that anything they say about it is worth one cent.
...
> > Enron, probably violating US antitrust laws, fucks all the Californians
> > by fixing the price of electricity and causing rolling blackouts.
>
> He's a mean one, Mr Grinch...
>
I must apologize to you and all for beating up exclusively on Enron.
There are other firms involved in the Afghan-Pakistan pipeline
project. ...
> > Enron designs a trans-Caspian oil pipeline to deprive the Russians
> > from getting a share of the loot from Kazakhstan's and Turkmenistan's
> > oil exports.
>
> Isn't an oil pipeline the most vulnerable target imaginable? How can
> they think they'll make money on it... unless they just kill everybody?
>
No, they won't kill everybody. They will follow the tried and true
British formula worked out in the Boer War. They will empty the
countryside of villages and people and put them into concentration
camps euphemistically called refugee- or feeding-centers. This was
the American policy in Vietnam (recall strategic hamlets, recall why
Senator Kerry was sent out to terrorize the recalcitrant so-called VC
sympathizers, recall free-fire zones) and in Somalia. The peasants
won't have to be driven in ( as we did to our Indians), hunger will do
the trick. Then we'll set up a puppet dictator, they've already got
the geriatric shah in the wings. The new shah will have a Savak to
enforce whatever laws are convenient to the pipeline. The pipeline
will be financed by the ExIm Bank, WorldBank, and IMF; with American
taxpayer funds. And we shall declare the whole mess to have been to
the greater imaginable human benefit. ... Until the next generation
offs their esteemed shah, bombs the WTC, etc.
...
>
> > All American's are relieved knowing that Osama's funding
> > sources have dried up.
>
> Where did I just read that ObL has hundreds of Arabic oil millionaires
> funneling him money? Counterpunch.com ?
>
I'm pulling your leg. Money is the least of Osama's worries. His
constituency might be poor but they are huge. The Islamic Brotherhood
could raise the requisite $300,000 for another WTC attack in one or
two evening in Cairo. I imagine that the right letter to the Chinese
could get the funds in an hour.
> > Bush 43 exacerbates the WTC terror attack economic losses by repeatedly
> > uttering frightening and inane phrases such as, 'smoke him out', 'dead or
> > alive', 'crusade', and 'infinite justice'.
>
> I think Reuters was right to drop the word 'terrorist'-- it aggravates
> the fear. But W's handlers are just trying to spin it as a Western,
> trying to take advantage of his strong points. They're sure to get
> better.
>
My point is here that Bush's John Wayne imitation is one of the chief
factors scaring the shit out of the public and Wall Street's equity
markets.
> > Bush 43 continues to parody Bush 41 and causes a recession
>
> The Dow was due for a 50% decline, based purely on macro-economics. I
> have no idea what was still holding it up-- the financial lobby no
> doubt, somehow.
>
Okay, I'm trying to blame Bush for the "excessive exuberance" and the
animal instincts to follow the herd. It ought to be Sheep and
Chickens, rather than Bulls and Bears.
> > More scare language, a public burning of the Constitution, internment
> > camps for the ACLU and computer hackers,
>
> (Who's scarin' who, now?)
>
Oh, I'm joking again! Clearly they wouldn't dare put the ACLU in a
camp; they'd put them in prison.
> The Supreme Court is only moderately corrupted.
>
I agree. Five ninths is a moderate fraction.
> > and removal of plastic 'silverware' from the Library of Congress and all
> > grade school cafeterias are advised
>
> Have they mentioned safety razors yet? ("Go electric or grow a beard!")
>
>
But I hear that they actually have gone after pointy mascara pencils.
That sure made be feel secure.
>
>
> Formatting tips:
>
> - shorter paragraphs (and simpler style)
>
> - in your 'preferences' turn off 'smart quotes' (or something like that)
>
Thanks, I'll try harder.
>
> And are you interested in the _ancient_ history of the middle east?
> (I'm working my way forward, but am only to 1000 BC, so WWI-reference
> make my brain ache.)
Somewhat, that's where I started when I spent a year with Holden
Caulfeld in boring school. Recently, since I was at AUC in 1984-5,
I've been into Egyptian and Greek religion a bit. Still a novice
however. Most recently I read Thucydides--super both for its
political history and for its sketches of the generals' personalities.
I think that perhaps he is on par with the Bible, and Homer, as a
proto psychologist; and three totally different genres.
Roy Davis
correct it wasnt only the US that was warned of possible attacks.
"Eric Chomko" <ech...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:9ovji7$2iee$8...@news.ums.edu...
geoffabby
Maybe things just happen ....it is called Fate....
Too simple?
Roy Davis
> >
> > This reads to me like the spite of the loser (ie, Saddam), not the
> > tactics of an oilman. You don't burn your own money to teach someone a
> > lesson!
> >
> I base my thesis on: a) the CIA pre-war assurances that Iraqi
> explosives could not knock off the well heads more than about one
> meter below the surface; b) High altitude bombing is a means to snap
> the well heads ten or more meters underground, as was done. c) As I
> have explained elsewhere, one of the American war objectives was to
> destroy Kuwait so that they would henceforth adhere to the Saudi
> doctrine of having friends in high places. d) I saw first hand the
> ill equipped army of boys that Saddam left to be slaughtered in the
> desert, I don't believe they had the time or materiel, or motive to
> destroy the Kuwaiti wells; e) I have my son's eye witness account of
> how terrorized the Iraqi soldiers were, and how easy it was to
> slaughter them in huge numbers; f) American military lied about
> everything else in the war from day one to present, so why ought I to
> think that anything they say about it is worth one cent.
>
I watched a documentary on the discovery channel about the gulf war. and it
had an american general staing that he had to feed the public misinformation
so that they could continue the campaign successfully.
and Im not to sure about bush ordering the destruction of the oil feilds,
but as a strategic manuvere the Iraqi forces torched a alrge amount to jamm
satelitte communications. As you may recall at the time the media and the US
forces announced it was nothing pure revenge for losing the land, when it
was actually an extremely clever military decession.
Roy Davis
they freeze oil supplies...... in essence they have america by the balls.
(untill it can get its oil supplies in large quantites out of alaska)
"Eric Chomko" <ech...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
news:9ovh1d$2iee$1...@news.ums.edu...
Eric Chomko
: Eric Chomko <ech...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote:
: > : The Supreme Court is only moderately corrupted.
: > On EXACTLY what do you base this statement on?
: Um, er... youthful naivete?
No. You know something or made a wild-ass guess. Which is it?
They are corrupt because a loose band of appointed powerful people WILL
become moderately corrupt at least. Human Nature.
Eric
: --
Eric Chomko
: > > > Bush destroys Kuwait's oil fields
How did it "work?" I mean given the objective of "free Kuwait", are you
saying that in the wake of that victory they let their guard down with
preserving the oil fields? Or was it sabotage?
Eric
Eric Chomko
: remember what happens to the america economy if you piss the arabs off and
: they freeze oil supplies...... in essence they have america by the balls.
: (untill it can get its oil supplies in large quantites out of alaska)
Or the former USSR. They have the reserves and need the economic boost. I
say give into the "demands" regarding the leaving the Persian Gulf,
eventually, and align ourselves
with drilling in the former USSR. It's a win/win for us and the Ruskies.
And win/lose for the Middle East and we are the former. Given the current
state of the world it seems just.
Eric
pez
lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
$
$ >
$ > So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
$ >
$ This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
$ Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
$ headed for the White House. Or the lie that the terrorists are
$ attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
$ These remind me of the Gulf War lies; e.g., that Saddam was not
$ invited to do as he wished with Kuwait by the Bush administration, or
$ that the Patriot missiles were 98% effective; or that the Iraqis stole
$ all the infant incubators in Kuwait. (Truth: Bush administration
$ said, “It’s a purely Arab affair”; the Patriots were
$ about 3% effective and falling Patriot junk posed a bigger threat to
$ the Israelis than did the scuds from Iraq; and the incubator story was
$ dreamed up by an American PR firm for the Kuwaiti embassy and
$ propagated by Congress persons who knew a priori that it was a lie.)
This is a mix of distortion and lies
$
$ > _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
$ >
$ Indeed the number of Israelis admitted to be present (Is it 4 or 6?)
$ is surprisingly low by one if not two orders of magnitude.
$
$
$ > Here's what I think the American people deserve, at minimum:
$ >
$ > - a credible accounting for the mysterious inflated list-- what was on
$ > it, why was it so long, how did it get misdelivered
$
$ I think you already have credibly explained and accounted for this
$ list: pure disinformation.
$ >
$ > - a public apology for the appearance of cynical opportunism
$
$ I see no appearance here; I see nothing cynical here. What I see is
$ that the Bush administration knows the political reality: That
$ Americans, especially when whipped into a xenophobic fury, are suckers
$ willing to believe the most incredible lies and distortions.
$ Admittedly, most have little time to study the matter, and most are
$ undereducated about the world, but most could, if they took the time
$ to add 2 plus 2 and think a bit about what they are being told, see
$ through the lies of the administration (e.g., that AF1 and the White
$ House were under attack on September 11).
$
$ >
$ > - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
$
$ Yes, where did the tens or hundreds of Israelis in the WTC vanish to
$ before 845 am on September 11?
$ >
$ > and most importantly:
$ >
$ > - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
$ > sides so that people can make an informed decision
$
$ Yes, there is a crying need for this. As a professor at AUC in Cairo
$ (1984-5) I studied the matter carefully and since then have carefully
$ watched US policy re the subject. It is a matter of historical
$ record, plain to anyone who wants to look into it, that American
$ policy in the Levant has been a continuation of the British policy
$ established at the 1919 Paris peace conference. To wit, a policy of
$ balkanization of the Arab homeland maintained by fomenting continual
$ instability and bickering between the fragmented states of the region.
$ Whenever the Americans have spoken of a peace initiative it has been
$ 100% disingenuous. Recently, America has been pushing Israel’s
$ apartheid solution. A solution akin to that which
$ “solved” the South African racial problems in 1948. There
$ is no fundamental difference between the American/Israeli program of
$ herding Palestinians into “enclaves” and the all-American
$ program of herding First Nations Natives into Indian Reservations in
$ the United States to end the Indian Wars. Both are at root genocidal
$ solutions to a cultural problem motivated by settlers’ greed to
$ steal the land and resources of the natives.
$
$ The problem is compounded by the oil resources of the region. The
$ British were motivated by the need to protect their Suez route to
$ India and their BP-owned (half crown-, half-capitalist owned) oil
$ wells near the Persian Gulf. In the 20s the British employed an
$ organized crime family from central Arabia (Nejd) to overthrow the
$ sharif of Mecca, Hussein. Hussein had been promised an Arab homeland,
$ comprising the Ottoman empire’s Arab territories (all of the
$ Arabian peninsula, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan). The British
$ were double-dealing, imperialistic, bastards (I know that’s
$ redundant). So the GodFather of this criminal clan, Ibn Saud, did
$ what he was paid to do and chased Hussein out of the Islamic holy
$ cities of Mecca and Medina. He tried to advance northward but the
$ British stopped him near Aqaba in Jordan, and at the Red Line they
$ hurriedly drew on a map to define Kuwait. But Ibn Saud did capture
$ the seemingly worthless Shiite territory called al Hasa on the Persian
$ Gulf. Bingo, oil was found by American prospectors. Pre WWII
$ Standard Oil of California (now Chevron) and The Texas Oil Company
$ (now Texaco) formed Caltex and created the Arab-American Oil Company
$ (Aramco). Jack Philby, a renegade British foreign service officer,
$ taught Ibn Saud that he needed friends in high places in order to cash
$ in on this oil wealth. So the Saudi family stole all the oil in
$ Arabia, from the Arabians, and then made sweetheart deals with
$ American firms to export it to world. Meanwhile, the Americans and BP
$ wheeled and dealed and double dealed with the Iraqis to suppress
$ Iraq’s oil output, somewhat successfully. And, when post WWII
$ Persia became democratic, America had the CIA overthrown its
$ government and install a puppet dictator from the Pahlavi family, more
$ or less creating another totalitarian police state on the model of
$ that in Arabia. Fastforward to the end of the cold war. Shah Pahlavi
$ is already overthrown, and dies an exile in Texas. Iran and Iraq
$ start to crank up oil production. The Saudi’s give their
$ Chevron and Texaco buddies (to whom they are absolutely tied by the
$ incredibly lucrative contract giving the Saudis de jure control of
$ Aramco) an even sweeter oil price arrangement. Reagan becomes
$ increasingly demented; the CIA/Bechtel nexus (Bush, Schultz,
$ Weinberger) become increasingly bold; AWACs planes go to the Saudis;
$ Saudis purchase billions in American-made weapons. Kuwait’s al
$ Sabah family schemes to cut all foreigners out of getting profits from
$ Kuwaiti oil. Kuwait starts to steal Iraqi oil. Iraq protests.
$ America tell Iraq’s Saddam Hussein that, “It’s a
$ purely Arab affair.” Saddam annexes Kuwait, once part of the
$ Ottoman’s Mesopotamian province. Bush springs his trap. Bush
$ destroys Kuwait’s oil fields and teaches the al Sabah family the
$ importance of having friends in high places. Bush embargos Iraq to
$ keep Iraqi oil mostly shut in indefinitely. Saudi oil output more
$ than doubles. The Bush/Bechtel nexus get fat rebuilding Kuwait.
$ American oil firms get rich exporting Saudi oil. American taxpayers
$ pay the bill and bury their dead. Clinton, who is CIA-compromised by
$ involvement in drug running to the Contras, maintains the status quo
$ for eight years. The CIA keeps warning us about terrorism but no
$ measures are taken to protect Americans. Enron, a Texas based
$ multinational energy conglomerate, helps finance Bush 43’s
$ appointment to the Presidency. Enron, probably violating US anti
$ trust laws, fucks all the Californians by fixing the price of
$ electricity and causing rolling blackouts. California’s
$ governor, Gray Davis, sues Enron et al for about $10 billion in
$ rapacious over charges. Enron, Mobil, and Chevron become anxious
$ about their decade-old contracts to export oil and gas from the Former
$ Soviet Republics whose communist dictators gave them sweetheart deals
$ arranged by the Bush41 administration’s cabinet members
$ (Mosbacher and Baker) on their travels as oil industry frontmen.
$ Enron designs a trans-Caspian oil pipeline to deprive the Russians
$ from getting a share of the loot from Kazakhstan’s and
$ Turkmenistan’s oil exports. Bush43 administration officials
$ scurry to meetings with Armenian and Azeri diplomats, seeking peace,
$ seeking to make the region secure so that the trans-Caspian oil
$ pipeline can be built. CIA/FBI continue to do nothing about terrorist
$ threat to domestic security even in the wake of the attack on the USS
$ Cole, even in light of all the published evidence from the embassy
$ bombing trials. Curious? Enron expresses interest in a trans
$ Afghanistan/Pakistan gas pipeline to India. Terrorists kill about
$ 5,000 people at WTC et al. Congress enjoys a Gulf of Tonkin moment.
$ Bush 43 voted dictatorial powers to prosecute an indefinite war;
$ anywhere he chooses, against a pronoun, Them. Bush 43 freezes the
$ assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding names. All
$ American’s are relieved knowing that Osama’s funding
$ sources have dried up. Bush 43 exacerbates the WTC terror attack
$ economic losses by repeatedly uttering frightening and inane phrases
$ such as, “smoke him out”, “dead or alive”,
$ “crusade”, and “infinite justice”. Osama
$ begins to quake in his boots. Bush 43 achieves a trillion dollar loss
$ in one day in equity value, an all time, world record. Bush 43
$ continues to parody Bush 41 and causes a recession, first one since
$ Bush 41 was demonstrating his astute leadership skills. Americans
$ respond to polls saying that they are 90% in favor of Bush 43. Bush
$ 43 closets himself with his advisors seeking 100% endorsement by the
$ American public. More scare language, a public burning of the
$ Constitution, internment camps for the ACLU and computer hackers, and
$ removal of plastic “silverware” from the Library of
$ Congress and all grade school cafeterias are advised; the secret
$ policy package is reduced to a few zippy talking points and labeled
$ “Complete Success” to get the CIA on board. Bush
$ 43’s defense experts focus efforts solely on crushing
$ Afghanistan, cowing Pakistan, and occupying the Central Asian FSRs.
$ Bush 43 spends his nights reading Winston Churchill’s memoirs on
$ the finer points about “draining the swamps”, combating
$ Maoist tactics, and herding women and children from the villages into
$ concentration camps with wafts of poison gas sprayed by crop dusters
$ (opps, sorry, that last was a page from British history in Iraq, er,
$ er, or was it Mussolini’s crusade against the Amharics, or
$ both). Well you can see now the problem: Loose lips sink ships.
$ Americans you’d all be safe in the hands of Il Duce, if we could
$ just make people like Jorn Barger stop pushing their
$ “agendas” on the Internet.
Propaganda
pez
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@att.net> wrote:
$ "Roy Davis" <dark...@i4free.co.nz> wrote in message
$ news:9otsg8$oiq$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
$ > only one new zealand but then he might have been a spy ;)
$
$ But 55 Aussies ... what WERE they doing here, so many of them?
$
trade maybe
pez
lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ ni...@somewhere.invalid wrote in message news:<umfto...@somewhere.invalid>...
$ > > So what are we to make of this?
$ > >
$ ...
$ > But this story doesn't support the evidence. Given 4000 people
$ > working there (and we have to assume this if "4000 absent from
$ > work" is to be considered significant), it is inconceivable that
$ > more than a tiny number of them - if any - had advance knowledge
$ > of the attack, or that more than a smallish minority could have
$ > been warned off without arousing suspicion.
$ >
$ > > The first says there were none, the second says there had been two, one
$ > > of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other was on the
$ > > 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
$ >
$ > An insider could have arranged for employees of one company to be
$ > elsewhere. But how many times would this have to be repeated to
$ > begin to approach 4000?
$
$ This is a very important and rational point. I think you have buried
$ the issue. Whether there was 4 or 4000 Israelis at WTC at 845 am on
$ 9/11/2001 is a question that most likely leads nowhere.
$
$ However, that does not dismiss the important observation that the
$ Israelis gave NYC officials knowingly false data, and the White House,
$ an institution with presumably some access to "intelligent"
$ intelligence resources for fact checking, gave a major policy address
$ with false statistics. It's a good and important question whether
$ this was a lie told for "policy purposes" or an innocent mistake.
$ (Here I cannot help but recall the Clinton White House's faux pas of
$ printing invitations for the big Israeli/Arafat love fest, was it in
$ 1993?, with the word Israel spelled "Isreal".)
$
$ What we do know as fact now is that the WH lied about being threatened
$ by a hijacked airplane on 9/11/2001, presumably to shield the POTUS
$ from criticisms of cowardice, such as that in the NYT by Safire. And
$ also we know the big lie that the WH has been repeating to the masses
$ about the terrorists attacking "our way of life", "democracy", "all
$ freedom-loving peoples", etc etc etc.
$
$ Anyone familiar with history, and anyone who has listened to Osama's
$ interview (e.g., Frontline, Esquire) knows that the three chief
$ policies that Osama & Arabian patriots, and the Egyptian Islamic
$ Brotherhood seek are: 1) US forces removed from Arabia, 2) End to US
$ policy of supporting Israel's plans for apartheid, and 3) End of US
$ support for the corrupt Egyptian dictator, Mubarak.
$
$ Beyond these policy changes, if successfully forced, Osama et al think
$ that they'll achieve: a) the overthrow of the Ibn Saud organized crime
$ family, b) democracy under Islamic sharia law as currently exists in
$ Iran, and c) an end to American multinational oil firms claiming about
$ 20% of the value of their oil by force of arms.
$
$ This is the latter day piracy that R. Buckminster Fuller so eloquently
$ condemns in his Operation Manual for Spaceship Earth, "And because the
$ public had never known of them and had been fooled into thinking their
$ kingly stooges and local politicians as being in reality the head men,
$ society was and is as yet unaware either that the Great Pirates once
$ ran the world or that they are now utterly extinct. <paragraph.
$ break> Though the pirates are extinct, all of our international trade
$ balancing and money ratings, as well as all economic accounting, in
$ both capitalist and communistic countries, hold strictly to the rules,
$ value systems, terminology, and concepts established by those Great
$ Pirates." p 35, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1969.
$
$ Fuller thought that the GPs vanished in the crash of 1929. What he
$ did not know then, probably largely because Eisenhower was able to
$ hold them in check, and to bitterly complain about them in his
$ Farewell Address in 1961, coining the term Military Industrial
$ Complex.
$
$ As I have explained elsewhere in these groups, the origin of the
$ resurgence of the GPs, which I refer to as the CIA/Bechtel nexus and
$ other constructions, lies in the history of WWII through the national
$ security acts of 1947, which amongst other things re-instituted the
$ wartime OSS as the CIA. Since that time, under the phrase "national
$ security" the government, not the whole thing for sure, because there
$ are vastly more earnest public servants than there are predators on
$ the prowl in it, has used secrecy under the term "national security"
$ to shield both specific crimes (e.g., complicity in the murder of
$ 500,000 Indonesians in 1965) and an on-going racket whereby the CIA et
$ al creates propitious opportunities for a small cadre of American
$ corporations, and the major (mostly Rockefeller controlled) oil firms
$ get together overseas, in violation of US anti-trust laws, and fix
$ both supply and price in the world oil markets.
$
$ The shock troops of this complex are a set of international
$ construction firms. Now mind you well that the vast majority of what
$ these businesses do is perfectly legal and most of it is arguably
$ beneficial to somebody's economy. Brown & Root owned LBJ in these
$ matters. Bechtel owned Reagan & Bush 41 in these matters.
$ Halliburton, the owners now of Brown & Root, owns Cheney & Bush 43 in
$ these matters. These firms swim symbiotically in a sea of bigger fish
$ with names like Chevron, Mobil, Enron, and Unocal. (When Powell uses
$ the Maoist expression, "Drain the swamp", it's too bad that it isn't
$ this one that he's referring to.)
$
$ The last gasp of legality was had in the US in 1958 when Eisenhower's
$ Justice Dept sought to prosecute these criminals. That year they were
$ blocked by the State Dept for vaguely specified reasons of "national
$ security." Since then America has passed RICO statutes that are
$ clearly applicable. And internationally a War Crimes tribunal has
$ been set up in The Hague. Americans ought to demand the use of these
$ tools to bring justice to the WTC II slaughter and straighten out
$ American policy both at home and abroad.
$
$ The only effect of government secrecy, whether in Stalinist Russia or
$ in America, is to shield specific crimes from prosecution, and to
$ enable an on-going racketeering complex to operate for the long term.
$ There is not one instance in which anything other than temporary
$ operationally specific secrecy can be shown to have benefited the
$ American people. Yet a plethora of crimes of property and crimes
$ against humanity are well known to have been committed and shielded
$ from prosecution by secrecy and so-called "national security."
this guy is just a liar
lets hope he dosn't teach your children
Jorn Barger
> : > : The Supreme Court is only moderately corrupted.
> : > On EXACTLY what do you base this statement on?
> : Um, er... youthful naivete?
> No. You know something or made a wild-ass guess. Which is it?
> They are corrupt because a loose band of appointed powerful people WILL
> become moderately corrupt at least. Human Nature.
Well, they made some decent decisions recently-- post-election, even.
Stealing the presidency is still a far cry from no-civil-rights-for-
Muslims.
Felix Havemann
Dear Jorn,
thank you for your antisemitic post. Yes, it is always the fault of the
jews, and they deserved to be killed in the third reich.
IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?? Maybe the CIA just did not believe the the
other secret services around the world, because they could just not imagine
an attack. Israelis can, they suffer from terrorism every day. Let us just
be happy for them, that so few Israelis died in this attack.
> _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
>
> - Israel would love more US help in fighting its war against 'Islamic
> terrorism'
The US helps already more that you can imagine. There is no need to make them
help more.
>
--
The email address given is correct.
Removal of nospam ends up in a spam-logging account! Feel free to contact me.
Eric Chomko
: and the british secret serice aswell I think, because if my memory serves me
: correct it wasnt only the US that was warned of possible attacks.
So M5 and Mossad got a warning that the CIA ignored? If true, then W and
Co. had better better cultivate intel bewteen his and his old man's
presidencies. (I.e. Press into service Clinton's old group to assist in
this matter.) Another example of where a wall between Democrats and
Republicans must come down in the unifying spirit of cooperation, rather
than hedge for political gain. We, the people, should demand and expect no
less.
Eric
: "Eric Chomko" <ech...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message
: news:9ovji7$2iee$8...@news.ums.edu...
: > Jorn Barger (jo...@enteract.com) wrote:
: > : "Liam G" <.@.> wrote:
: > : > > I saw a CIA denial they ever got a warning.
: > : > Well thats it then they could not of been warned ;-)
: >
: > : Roy was arguing the Israelis couldn't have done it because they tried to
: > : warn us.
: >
: >
: > Only Mossad knows for sure.
: >
: > Eric
: >
: > : --
pez
Chomko) wrote:
$ Roy Davis (dark...@i4free.co.nz) wrote:
$ : and the british secret serice aswell I think, because if my memory serves me
$ : correct it wasnt only the US that was warned of possible attacks.
$
$ So M5 and Mossad got a warning that the CIA ignored? If true, then W and
$ Co. had better better cultivate intel bewteen his and his old man's
$ presidencies. (I.e. Press into service Clinton's old group to assist in
$ this matter.) Another example of where a wall between Democrats and
$ Republicans must come down in the unifying spirit of cooperation, rather
$ than hedge for political gain. We, the people, should demand and expect no
$ less.
$
$ Eric
The warning were more like somethings about to happen.
close to useless
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
> : > sides so that people can make an informed decision
>
> : Yes, there is a crying need for this. As a professor at AUC in Cairo
> : (1984-5) I studied the matter carefully and since then have carefully
> : watched US policy re the subject. It is a matter of historical
> : record, plain to anyone who wants to look into it, that American
> : policy in the Levant has been a continuation of the British policy
> : established at the 1919 Paris peace conference.
[snip]
> : ... There
> : is no fundamental difference between the American/Israeli program of
> : herding Palestinians into “enclaves” and the all-American
> : program of herding First Nations Natives into Indian Reservations in
> : the United States to end the Indian Wars. Both are at root genocidal
> : solutions to a cultural problem motivated by settlers’ greed to
> : steal the land and resources of the natives.
>
> But today its oil. The sooner find an alternate form of energy the better.
>
energy sources for many decades to come. Based upon a conversation I
had with Peter Odell during the Gulf War (he's a professor emeritus at
Oxford now, I believe), the earth has much, much more oil and gas to
be found and produced. Remember that coal (CO2 and Hg emmissions) and
nuclear (radiation) are killers; and that wind, geo, and solar all are
quite expensive and have considerable externalities that are costly,
unaesthetic, and perhaps environmentally degrading. Especially to be
avoided are electric cars powered by batteries; this is due to the
batteries requiring heavy (lead) or esoteric metals which are killers.
Ethanol is uneconomical; it is advocated primarily as a way to enrich
ADM; you know, that price-fixing firm that sponsors the PBS News Hour.
What is important to do, as a matter of public policy, is energy
conservation. Gasoline ought to bear a tax sufficient to make users
of roads bear the full cost, including both the externalities and the
opportunity cost of the underlying real estate. This means a gasoline
price of about $5 per gallon. Of course, it also means an off-setting
reduction in other taxes, presumably those on wages, of an equal
amount. And it would mean, better land use, more vibrant cities, less
CO2 emmitted, more walking, more travel by mass modes, etc.
> : The problem is compounded by the oil resources of the region. The
>
> No, that is THE problem, coupled with greed.
>
In a sense you're right on both points. But Greed has been an
affliction of the human condition since time immemorial. Or at least
since the invention of civilization and its god Molloch; you know, the
god still worshipped by the select few who annually attend the
Bohemian Grove camp out every July in Sonoma County, CA. Secrecy is a
big part of the problem; as is Secrecy's handmaiden, Disinformation,
what the so-called Greatest Generation know as Propaganda.
[snip]
> : ... Fastforward to the end of the cold war. Shah Pahlavi
> : is already overthrown, and dies an exile in Texas. Iran and Iraq
>
> Wait, the end of the Cold War was 1979? You lost a decade in there by
> my calculations. Otherwise your history is quite similar to what I read in
> the book, "Farewell America" by James Hepburn (1968). I have no reason to
> doubt you or FA.
>
You missed my "already". Already for a decade. Saddam and Iran
started to crank up in 1988 in the wake of the Iran-Contra affair.
That affair exposed the duplicity of Iraq's ally, America. So he made
peace with Iran and got back into the business of worrying about
increasing his oil revenues, which had been considerably reduced
during his fight with Iran, somewhat by American made missiles sent to
Iran by Reagan as a thank-you present for keeping the hostages in situ
in Tehran until after he was inaugurated. This is why Reagan was
CIA-compromised; he was already for many years in the pocket of
Bechtel; but this gave added reason for him to go along with CIA's
program of creating propitious situations for Bechtel et al to
exploit.
> : start to crank up oil production.
[snip]
> This "Power Elite" lives and breathes by oil. They literally ARE the
> Shadow Government or Secret Team (latter coined by L. Fletcher Prouty)
> that runs the US.
>
Yes, in a sense. But serious people must be careful not to allege
that a conspiracy exists. There is no conspiracy in the sense
portrayed in Oliver Stone's brilliant movie JFK. I say brilliant
because it is a great screen play. But it is not history any more or
less than Shakespeare's Henriad plays are historically accurate.
Nevertheless, these portrayals capture the essence of humanity and the
zietgeist of the times. What exists is facts.
These facts clearly show the existence of a complex, or a way in which
certain business interests and the foreign policy apparatus of America
have interacted synergistically: Politicians get the ego trip of
power; these businesses get profits; the American taxpayer pays the
expenses; American mothers bury their war dead; foreigners with non
white skins are deemed collateral damage; totalitarian dictators are
the foreign governments of choice; and all is draped behind the flag,
and shielded by so-called "national security".
What America saw on TV between 845 am and 1045 am on 9/11/2001 was the
fruits of our post WWII efforts at "national security." I for one
have had enough "national security" to last a lifetime; I much prefer
to be safe.
Read former Attorney General Ramsay Clark's book The Fire This Time if
you want the specifics of Bush 41's war crimes; read Laton McCartney's
Friends in High Places if you want to know about the CIA/Bechtel
nexus; read Daniel Yergin's The Prize if you want to know about the
oil industry; Google (Iran India Pakistan gas pipeline) to see how
Cheney's company Halliburton great connections in Tehran are to come
into play to get one leg of a potential duopoly selling gas to India;
Google (Turkmenistan Afghanistan Pakistan India gas pipeline) to see
how Chevron, Mobil, Enron, et al are positioned to control the other
leg; the leg delivering Central Asian gas to India.
Then tell me that "It's the Indian Gas Market, Stupid", isn't an apt
battle cry for those few of us who are opposed to setting up another
shah's puppet police state in Afghanistan.
[snip]
> : Congress enjoys a Gulf of Tonkin moment.
> : Bush 43 voted dictatorial powers to prosecute an indefinite war;
> : anywhere he chooses, against a pronoun, Them. Bush 43 freezes the
> : assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding names. All
> : American’s are relieved knowing that Osama’s funding
>
> ALL? I take exception to your sweeping statement! I for one will not feel
> a little better until they get him.
>
Oh, oh! I'm kidding. Another $300,000 can be raised in about two
days. Even in the poorest of poor Arab places, Cairo, the Muslim
Brotherhood could raise this sum in a big hurry. Bush 43's tactics
are a joke, a sick joke, insofar as making Americans any safer. Short
of a Stalinist state, we're not going to be safe unless we essentially
surrender to the terrorists. The policy is hard to swallow: we say
you guys are right, we've got to stop stealing your oil, stop
occupying your countries, stop supporting tyrants (e.g., Mubarak),
stop supporting apartheid in Israel, and generally we've got to agree
that we'll obey the Golden Rule. Peace and security are founded upon
pervasive good will and not upon the iron boot and the mailed fist.
[snip]
> : ... Bush
> : 43’s defense experts focus efforts solely on crushing
> : Afghanistan, cowing Pakistan, and occupying the Central Asian FSRs.
>
> Cowing Pakistan? It seems that they are sucking up with little or no
> western effort. They WANT into our economic system. And as Churchill said,
> sure it is a lousy system, but until someone comes up with a better one, I
> think we should keep it."
There's two points I'm alluding to here: Pakistan was not friendly to
the US before this event. I say "cowed" because their govt
cooperation with US might well cause a civil war, and could lead to
the installation of an Iranian type regime. Secondly, I'm looking at
the exclusive focus on the Afghan theater when it's common knowledge
that the terrorist are mostly from Arabia and Egypt and are, in fact,
everywhere. Bush 43's war policy, interpreted as an anti terrorist
policy, is stupid. It make me have a moment of cognitive dissonance;
it doesn't pass the "flinch test" that we statisticians apply to
initially review computer outputs. So then I ask why is this policy
headed almost exclusively where the main body of the terrorists are
NOT to be found? Ah hah! Because this is NOT a war against terrorism
at all. This is the next installment of the wars to establish what
Bush 41 called the New World Order. A world of American hegenomy
created with American military muscle for the benefit of a small group
of firms interested in splitting the spoils extracted from third world
countries with a set of totalitarian puppet dictators. That is a war
aimed at extending the list that goes: Saudi, Nigeria, UAE, Kuwait,
Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Egypt, et al; and shortening the list that
goes: Iraq, Iran, Libya,
et al.
>
> : Bush 43 spends his nights reading Winston Churchill’s memoirs on
> : the finer points about “draining the swamps”, combating
> : Maoist tactics, and herding women and children from the villages into
> : concentration camps with wafts of poison gas sprayed by crop dusters
> : (opps, sorry, that last was a page from British history in Iraq, er,
> : er, or was it Mussolini’s crusade against the Amharics, or
>
> Bush read? No, his carrying of books around smacks of Clinton
> photographed with the Bible (i.e. for show).
I'm joking, of course. Today his daddy, Bush 41, said proudly on
network TV that his son had read the Bible "twice through". Wow!
This is bona fide proof that the POTUS definitely has a reading
comprehension problem.
>
> : both). Well you can see now the problem: Loose lips sink ships.
> : Americans you’d all be safe in the hands of Il Duce, if we could
> : just make people like Jorn Barger stop pushing their
> : “agendas” on the Internet.
>
> I don't follow the last part. Anyway, so what's next?
>
It's another joke. I'm pulling Jorn's leg because if it were not for
a few intelligent and courageous communicators, such as he, connecting
the dots for all of us readers then we'd be considerably more in the
dark about the world.
> You seem to have spelled out the past fairly well and have an interesting
> interpretation of the present. What does the future hold?
>
> Eric
Unfortunately, I fear, a lot more history with the same basic themes.
I most certainly am not optimistic.
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
> In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
> lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
>
> $ jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
> $
> $ >
> $ > So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
> $ >
> $ This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
> $ Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
> $ headed for the White House. Or the lie that the terrorists are
> $ attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
>
> This is a mix of distortion and lies
> Propaganda
Dear Pezcleo:
Please be specific. Everything I've said is fully supported by
documents readily available to all who care to search for them.
However, given that the CIA has had a very energetic program of
seeding the information world with disinformation since 1947, I would
not be a bit surprised if I had mistakenly relied upon their documents
to some small extent.
For example, when I wrote my MA thesis on Yugoslavia, I found that the
Hoover Institute had published a plethora of books on the subject.
Without exception, in the sample of these books that I read, the
content can only be described by the noun "disinformation". Now
surely, I'd be foolish to assume that similar institutions for similar
purposes are not still cluttering up academic shelves with similar
propaganda. Therefore, I take care to validate what I read.
I look forward to having your citations in hand.
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
> lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
> $ This is the latter day piracy that R. Buckminster Fuller so eloquently
> $ condemns in his Operation Manual for Spaceship Earth, "And because the
> $ public had never known of them and had been fooled into thinking their
> $ kingly stooges and local politicians as being in reality the head men,
> $ society was and is as yet unaware either that the Great Pirates once
> $ ran the world or that they are now utterly extinct. <paragraph.
> $ break> Though the pirates are extinct, all of our international trade
> $ balancing and money ratings, as well as all economic accounting, in
> $ both capitalist and communistic countries, hold strictly to the rules,
> $ value systems, terminology, and concepts established by those Great
> $ Pirates." p 35, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1969.
> $
> $ Fuller thought that the GPs vanished in the crash of 1929. What he
> $ did not know then, probably largely because Eisenhower was able to
> $ hold them in check, and to bitterly complain about them in his
> $ Farewell Address in 1961, coining the term Military Industrial
> $ Complex.
> $
> > this guy is just a liar
> lets hope he dosn't teach your children
Dear Pez:
No one would expect a nitwit like you to be familiar with either
Buckminster Fuller or Dwight David Eisenhower. For that matter, I
seriously doubt that you can find your own ass using both hands. If
that assumption is false, then immediately ram you slander-spouting
head up your anus and let your sphincter muscle do all of us a favor.
Yours truly,
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
PS: Please accept my profound apologies for the fragmented nature of
the last sentence in the quote remaining above.
Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
Dear Eric and Roy:
What I am expounding upon here is the hypothesis that American forces
destroyed the Kuwaiti oil wells using high-altitude saturation
bombing. We know for certain that the wells were destroyed. And we
know for certain that America used more bombs than were dropped in all
of WWII in Europe. What we don't know is who destroyed the Kuwaiti
wells. We know for certain that the US military lies to the world as
a matter of policy. Therefore, we know that nothing they say is
credible. Hence, we must use our noodles to answer the question.
As with all crimes, it is a matter of motive and opportunity and
evidence. We are all aware of these factors insofar as the Iraqis are
concerned. What we as a people are generally not aware of are these
same factors when American forces are put in the dock as the alleged
culprit.
In the quote above, I mentioned six bases supporting my hypothesis.
The third one perhaps requires elaboration, "c) As I have explained
elsewhere, one of the American war objectives was to destroy Kuwait so
that they would henceforth adhere to the Saudi doctrine of having
friends in high places."
Prior to the war the Kuwaitis were trying to vertically integrate
their oil industry. This means taking over all aspects from
production in the desert, to gathering pipelines, loading facilities,
tanker transportation, refining, distribution, and ultimately
retailing. To this end, they were setting up retail chains in America
and Europe. These matters were discussed in several articles in the
Economist magazine in the late 1980s. After the war, the Kuwaitis
completely abandoned their attempt at verticle integration.
Prior to the war, the Saudis gave American oil firms better pricing
deals than anyone else (since 1985, according to Yergin's book). The
oil firms exporting Saudi crude, principly Chevron and Texaco, had
every reason to want to increase Saudi oil exports; pre war the Saudis
were operating at about 40% of full capacity.
All American firms engaged in activities incidental to the production
of oil (e.g., infrastruture, refining, retailing) had motives to stop
the Kuwaitis integration plan; so they could get their "normal" cuts
of the profits.
We know almost nothing about what went on behind closed doors in terms
of war objectives in Riyahd before and during the Gulf War. We do
know that the Bush 41 regime was allied with the Bechtel clique (as
represented in the govt by Schultz, Weinberger, et al) and that
Bechtel is a huge provider of incidental services, mostly
construction, for the Saudis especially and for the worldwide energy
markets. We do know that Cheney, Bush 41's war chief, had every
incentive to feather his Halliburton nest (it being another
"Bechtel"); and we do know that Bush 41's sons scrambled immediately
after the shooting stopped to the war-ravaged Kuwait as frontmen for
various contractors.
I submit to you that there is sufficient motive, opportunity, and
evidence to indict American commanders for the environmental crime of
destroying Kuwait's oil wells. There is probable cause to believe
this hypothesis. What there is not, as yet, is proof beyond a
reasonable doubt. This is one reason, and a pale one compared to the
genocidal blockade of Iraq and the bombing of its civilians, that
American war criminals ought to be tried in The Hague. Otherwise, as
was the case with FDR goading the Japanese to attack unalerted
military forces in Hawaii, the matter will be sorted out, and the dead
chieftains indicted in the history texts some fifty or so years after
the crime.
Now, as I have frankly said elsewhere in these groups, I have an ax to
grind. You should take that into account but you should not let it
stand between you and the truth.
pez
lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ pez...@ntplx.net (pez) wrote in message
news:<pezcleo-2809...@p12-09.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com>...
$ > In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
$ > lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ >
$ > $ jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
$ > $
$ > $ >
$ > $ > So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
$ > $ >
$ > $ This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
$ > $ Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
$ > $ headed for the White House. Or the lie that the terrorists are
$ > $ attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
$ [snip]
$ >
$ > This is a mix of distortion and lies
$ [snip]
$ > Propaganda
$
$ Dear Pezcleo:
$
$ Please be specific. Everything I've said is fully supported by
$ documents readily available to all who care to search for them.
$ However, given that the CIA has had a very energetic program of
$ seeding the information world with disinformation since 1947, I would
$ not be a bit surprised if I had mistakenly relied upon their documents
$ to some small extent.
$
$ For example, when I wrote my MA thesis on Yugoslavia, I found that the
$ Hoover Institute had published a plethora of books on the subject.
$ Without exception, in the sample of these books that I read, the
$ content can only be described by the noun "disinformation". Now
$ surely, I'd be foolish to assume that similar institutions for similar
$ purposes are not still cluttering up academic shelves with similar
$ propaganda. Therefore, I take care to validate what I read.
$
$ I look forward to having your citations in hand.
repost it in clean copy form I'll go point by point
pez
lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ pez...@ntplx.net (pez) wrote in message
news:<pezcleo-2809...@p12-09.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com>...
$ > In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
$ > lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ [snip]
$ > $ This is the latter day piracy that R. Buckminster Fuller so eloquently
$ > $ condemns in his Operation Manual for Spaceship Earth, "And because the
$ > $ public had never known of them and had been fooled into thinking their
$ > $ kingly stooges and local politicians as being in reality the head men,
$ > $ society was and is as yet unaware either that the Great Pirates once
$ > $ ran the world or that they are now utterly extinct. <paragraph.
$ > $ break> Though the pirates are extinct, all of our international trade
$ > $ balancing and money ratings, as well as all economic accounting, in
$ > $ both capitalist and communistic countries, hold strictly to the rules,
$ > $ value systems, terminology, and concepts established by those Great
$ > $ Pirates." p 35, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1969.
$ > $
$ > $ Fuller thought that the GPs vanished in the crash of 1929. What he
$ > $ did not know then, probably largely because Eisenhower was able to
$ > $ hold them in check, and to bitterly complain about them in his
$ > $ Farewell Address in 1961, coining the term Military Industrial
$ > $ Complex.
$ > $
$ [snip]
$ > > this guy is just a liar
$ > lets hope he dosn't teach your children
$
$ Dear Pez:
$
$ No one would expect a nitwit like you to be familiar with either
$ Buckminster Fuller or Dwight David Eisenhower. For that matter, I
$ seriously doubt that you can find your own ass using both hands. If
$ that assumption is false, then immediately ram you slander-spouting
$ head up your anus and let your sphincter muscle do all of us a favor.
$
$ Yours truly,
$
$ Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence
$
$ PS: Please accept my profound apologies for the fragmented nature of
$ the last sentence in the quote remaining above.
I am well aware of it but you have posted twisted information.
pez
lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ ech...@polaris.umuc.edu (Eric Chomko) wrote in message
news:<9p0kb7$1thm$3...@news.ums.edu>...
$ > Roy Davis (dark...@i4free.co.nz) wrote:
$ > : > > > Bush destroys Kuwait's oil fields
$ > : > >
$ > : > > This reads to me like the spite of the loser (ie, Saddam), not the
$ > : > > tactics of an oilman. You don't burn your own money to teach
someone a
$ > : > > lesson!
$ > : > >
$ > : > I base my thesis on: a) the CIA pre-war assurances that Iraqi
$ > : > explosives could not knock off the well heads more than about one
$ > : > meter below the surface; b) High altitude bombing is a means to snap
$ > : > the well heads ten or more meters underground, as was done. c) As I
$ > : > have explained elsewhere, one of the American war objectives was to
$ > : > destroy Kuwait so that they would henceforth adhere to the Saudi
$ > : > doctrine of having friends in high places. d) I saw first hand the
$ > : > ill equipped army of boys that Saddam left to be slaughtered in the
$ > : > desert, I don't believe they had the time or materiel, or motive to
$ > : > destroy the Kuwaiti wells; e) I have my son's eye witness account of
$ > : > how terrorized the Iraqi soldiers were, and how easy it was to
$ > : > slaughter them in huge numbers; f) American military lied about
$ > : > everything else in the war from day one to present, so why ought I to
$ > : > think that anything they say about it is worth one cent.
$ > : >
$ >
$ > : I watched a documentary on the discovery channel about the gulf war.
and it
$ > : had an american general staing that he had to feed the public
misinformation
$ > : so that they could continue the campaign successfully.
$ >
$ > : and Im not to sure about bush ordering the destruction of the oil feilds,
$ > : but as a strategic manuvere the Iraqi forces torched a alrge amount
to jamm
$ > : satelitte communications. As you may recall at the time the media
and the US
$ > : forces announced it was nothing pure revenge for losing the land, when it
$ > : was actually an extremely clever military decession.
$ >
$ > How did it "work?" I mean given the objective of "free Kuwait", are you
$ > saying that in the wake of that victory they let their guard down with
$ > preserving the oil fields? Or was it sabotage?
$ >
$ > Eric
$
$ Dear Eric and Roy:
$
$ What I am expounding upon here is the hypothesis that American forces
$ destroyed the Kuwaiti oil wells using high-altitude saturation
$ bombing. We know for certain that the wells were destroyed. And we
$ know for certain that America used more bombs than were dropped in all
$ of WWII in Europe. What we don't know is who destroyed the Kuwaiti
$ wells. We know for certain that the US military lies to the world as
$ a matter of policy. Therefore, we know that nothing they say is
$ credible. Hence, we must use our noodles to answer the question.
$
$ As with all crimes, it is a matter of motive and opportunity and
$ evidence. We are all aware of these factors insofar as the Iraqis are
$ concerned. What we as a people are generally not aware of are these
$ same factors when American forces are put in the dock as the alleged
$ culprit.
$
$ In the quote above, I mentioned six bases supporting my hypothesis.
$ The third one perhaps requires elaboration, "c) As I have explained
$ elsewhere, one of the American war objectives was to destroy Kuwait so
$ that they would henceforth adhere to the Saudi doctrine of having
$ friends in high places."
$
$ Prior to the war the Kuwaitis were trying to vertically integrate
$ their oil industry. This means taking over all aspects from
$ production in the desert, to gathering pipelines, loading facilities,
$ tanker transportation, refining, distribution, and ultimately
$ retailing. To this end, they were setting up retail chains in America
$ and Europe. These matters were discussed in several articles in the
$ Economist magazine in the late 1980s. After the war, the Kuwaitis
$ completely abandoned their attempt at verticle integration.
$
$ Prior to the war, the Saudis gave American oil firms better pricing
$ deals than anyone else (since 1985, according to Yergin's book). The
$ oil firms exporting Saudi crude, principly Chevron and Texaco, had
$ every reason to want to increase Saudi oil exports; pre war the Saudis
$ were operating at about 40% of full capacity.
$
$ All American firms engaged in activities incidental to the production
$ of oil (e.g., infrastruture, refining, retailing) had motives to stop
$ the Kuwaitis integration plan; so they could get their "normal" cuts
$ of the profits.
$
$ We know almost nothing about what went on behind closed doors in terms
$ of war objectives in Riyahd before and during the Gulf War. We do
$ know that the Bush 41 regime was allied with the Bechtel clique (as
$ represented in the govt by Schultz, Weinberger, et al) and that
$ Bechtel is a huge provider of incidental services, mostly
$ construction, for the Saudis especially and for the worldwide energy
$ markets. We do know that Cheney, Bush 41's war chief, had every
$ incentive to feather his Halliburton nest (it being another
$ "Bechtel"); and we do know that Bush 41's sons scrambled immediately
$ after the shooting stopped to the war-ravaged Kuwait as frontmen for
$ various contractors.
$
$ I submit to you that there is sufficient motive, opportunity, and
$ evidence to indict American commanders for the environmental crime of
$ destroying Kuwait's oil wells. There is probable cause to believe
$ this hypothesis. What there is not, as yet, is proof beyond a
$ reasonable doubt. This is one reason, and a pale one compared to the
$ genocidal blockade of Iraq and the bombing of its civilians, that
$ American war criminals ought to be tried in The Hague. Otherwise, as
$ was the case with FDR goading the Japanese to attack unalerted
$ military forces in Hawaii, the matter will be sorted out, and the dead
$ chieftains indicted in the history texts some fifty or so years after
$ the crime.
$
$ Now, as I have frankly said elsewhere in these groups, I have an ax to
$ grind. You should take that into account but you should not let it
$ stand between you and the truth.
Trueth rarely comes from people with ax to
grind.
Eric Chomko
: In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
: lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
: $ jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
: $
: $ >
: $ > So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
: $ >
: $ This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
: $ Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
: $ headed for the White House. Or the lie that the terrorists are
: $ attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
: $ These remind me of the Gulf War lies; e.g., that Saddam was not
: $ invited to do as he wished with Kuwait by the Bush administration, or
: $ that the Patriot missiles were 98% effective; or that the Iraqis stole
: $ all the infant incubators in Kuwait. (Truth: Bush administration
: $ said, “It’s a purely Arab affair”; the Patriots were
: $ about 3% effective and falling Patriot junk posed a bigger threat to
: $ the Israelis than did the scuds from Iraq; and the incubator story was
: $ dreamed up by an American PR firm for the Kuwaiti embassy and
: $ propagated by Congress persons who knew a priori that it was a lie.)
: This is a mix of distortion and lies
What parts? You make it even more intriguing by not spell out the
distortion and lies.
: $
: Propaganda
More truth that you know.
Eric
Eric Chomko
: In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
Pez, as much as I admire your patriotic zeal, there is an "Emperor's New
Clothes"-aspect to your thinking about America.
We are not pure. I don't know how to say it anymore bluntly than that.
Sure we try and do the right thing most of the time. But face it, we are
greedy and have a tendency to speak and act in many different directions
all at the same time. In a manner that some people are two-faced, we as a
nation, are multi-faced. An example would be having the Peace Corps. and
the CIA in the same foreign neighborhood and the locals trying to
understand the motives and actions of the "Americans." One group is
trying to save you while the other is trying to kill you. Go figure!
Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9/11/01 was not justified in any way.
And we SHOULD and WILL get those responsible. But it cannot end there. We
must examine why is it, that if we are as great as we say we are, that
many hate us. Too many in fact!
Eric
Eric Chomko
: Eric Chomko <ech...@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote:
: > : > : The Supreme Court is only moderately corrupted.
: > : > On EXACTLY what do you base this statement on?
: > : Um, er... youthful naivete?
: > No. You know something or made a wild-ass guess. Which is it?
: > They are corrupt because a loose band of appointed powerful people WILL
: > become moderately corrupt at least. Human Nature.
: Well, they made some decent decisions recently-- post-election, even.
I thought the election decision was modertely corrupt, but that is another
topic.
: Stealing the presidency is still a far cry from no-civil-rights-for-
: Muslims.
Who is advocating no civil rights for Muslims other than basic rednecks?
ArthuR the VoR
"pez" <pez...@ntplx.net> wrote in message
news:pezcleo-2809...@p12-09.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com...
[300 line quote +2 line reply.]
Learn to freaking <SNIP>
--
ArthuR
Eric Chomko
: > [...]
: > But today its oil. The sooner find an alternate form of energy the better.
: >
: Not necessarily. Oil and, better yet, natural gas may be the best
: energy sources for many decades to come. Based upon a conversation I
: had with Peter Odell during the Gulf War (he's a professor emeritus at
: Oxford now, I believe), the earth has much, much more oil and gas to
: be found and produced. Remember that coal (CO2 and Hg emmissions) and
: nuclear (radiation) are killers; and that wind, geo, and solar all are
: quite expensive and have considerable externalities that are costly,
: unaesthetic, and perhaps environmentally degrading. Especially to be
: avoided are electric cars powered by batteries; this is due to the
: batteries requiring heavy (lead) or esoteric metals which are killers.
: Ethanol is uneconomical; it is advocated primarily as a way to enrich
: ADM; you know, that price-fixing firm that sponsors the PBS News Hour.
: What is important to do, as a matter of public policy, is energy
: conservation. Gasoline ought to bear a tax sufficient to make users
: of roads bear the full cost, including both the externalities and the
: opportunity cost of the underlying real estate. This means a gasoline
: price of about $5 per gallon. Of course, it also means an off-setting
: reduction in other taxes, presumably those on wages, of an equal
: amount. And it would mean, better land use, more vibrant cities, less
: CO2 emmitted, more walking, more travel by mass modes, etc.
Yes, I suppose we are stuck with oil for short to medium term.
: > : The problem is compounded by the oil resources of the region. The
Agreed.
: Read former Attorney General Ramsay Clark's book The Fire This Time if
: you want the specifics of Bush 41's war crimes; read Laton McCartney's
: Friends in High Places if you want to know about the CIA/Bechtel
: nexus; read Daniel Yergin's The Prize if you want to know about the
: oil industry; Google (Iran India Pakistan gas pipeline) to see how
: Cheney's company Halliburton great connections in Tehran are to come
: into play to get one leg of a potential duopoly selling gas to India;
: Google (Turkmenistan Afghanistan Pakistan India gas pipeline) to see
: how Chevron, Mobil, Enron, et al are positioned to control the other
: leg; the leg delivering Central Asian gas to India.
Thanks for the tips regarding reading material.
: Then tell me that "It's the Indian Gas Market, Stupid", isn't an apt
: battle cry for those few of us who are opposed to setting up another
: shah's puppet police state in Afghanistan.
: [snip]
: > : Congress enjoys a Gulf of Tonkin moment.
: > : Bush 43 voted dictatorial powers to prosecute an indefinite war;
: > : anywhere he chooses, against a pronoun, Them. Bush 43 freezes the
: > : assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding names. All
: > : American’s are relieved knowing that Osama’s funding
: >
: > ALL? I take exception to your sweeping statement! I for one will not feel
: > a little better until they get him.
: >
: Oh, oh! I'm kidding. Another $300,000 can be raised in about two
: days. Even in the poorest of poor Arab places, Cairo, the Muslim
: Brotherhood could raise this sum in a big hurry. Bush 43's tactics
: are a joke, a sick joke, insofar as making Americans any safer. Short
: of a Stalinist state, we're not going to be safe unless we essentially
: surrender to the terrorists. The policy is hard to swallow: we say
: you guys are right, we've got to stop stealing your oil, stop
: occupying your countries, stop supporting tyrants (e.g., Mubarak),
What are the chances of that happening (i.e. "...you guys are right...")?
: stop supporting apartheid in Israel, and generally we've got to agree
: that we'll obey the Golden Rule. Peace and security are founded upon
: pervasive good will and not upon the iron boot and the mailed fist.
Makes me think of the Etruscans before the Romans appeared. We been
"Roman" ever since.
: [snip]
Interesting...
: >
: > : Bush 43 spends his nights reading Winston Churchill’s memoirs on
: > : the finer points about “draining the swamps”, combating
: > : Maoist tactics, and herding women and children from the villages into
: > : concentration camps with wafts of poison gas sprayed by crop dusters
: > : (opps, sorry, that last was a page from British history in Iraq, er,
: > : er, or was it Mussolini’s crusade against the Amharics, or
: >
: > Bush read? No, his carrying of books around smacks of Clinton
: > photographed with the Bible (i.e. for show).
: I'm joking, of course. Today his daddy, Bush 41, said proudly on
: network TV that his son had read the Bible "twice through". Wow!
: This is bona fide proof that the POTUS definitely has a reading
: comprehension problem.
Yes, as lofty as the Kennedys were, the Bushes are really something else.
: >
: > : both). Well you can see now the problem: Loose lips sink ships.
: > : Americans you’d all be safe in the hands of Il Duce, if we could
: > : just make people like Jorn Barger stop pushing their
: > : “agendas” on the Internet.
: >
: > I don't follow the last part. Anyway, so what's next?
: >
: It's another joke. I'm pulling Jorn's leg because if it were not for
: a few intelligent and courageous communicators, such as he, connecting
: the dots for all of us readers then we'd be considerably more in the
: dark about the world.
: > You seem to have spelled out the past fairly well and have an interesting
: > interpretation of the present. What does the future hold?
: >
: Unfortunately, I fear, a lot more history with the same basic themes.
: I most certainly am not optimistic.
I don't know. I think we need a little victory like getting bin Laden.
I think that eventually we will. But we do have to go a long way in
shedding a level of secrecy that helps the few and ignores the rest.
Eric
pez
Chomko) wrote:
$ pez (pez...@ntplx.net) wrote:
$ : In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
$ : lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$
$ : $ jo...@enteract.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:
$ : $
$ : $ >
$ : $ > So Bush's 'more than 130' was a 4500% exaggeration! (Oops!)
$ : $ >
$ : $ This is just one example of the plethora of lies coming out of the
$ : $ Bush administration. For example, the lie that one of the planes was
$ : $ headed for the White House.
It wasn't a lie, but a threat that appeared at the time.
Or the lie that the terrorists are
$ : $ attacking democracy (as if there were democracy in Arabia and Egypt!)
It was an attack on the USA and bin Laden stated he wanted to kill all
americans. Everyone dead will destroy our democracy
$ : $ These remind me of the Gulf War lies; e.g., that Saddam was not
$ : $ invited to do as he wished with Kuwait by the Bush administration,
That simply is a lie.
We did not invite him in.
or
$ : $ that the Patriot missiles were 98% effective; or that the Iraqis stole
$ : $ all the infant incubators in Kuwait. (Truth: Bush administration
$ : $ said, “It’s a purely Arab affair”; the Patriots were
$ : $ about 3% effective and falling Patriot junk posed a bigger threat to
$ : $ the Israelis than did the scuds from Iraq;
They were 60 to 70% effective
and the incubator story was
$ : $ dreamed up by an American PR firm for the Kuwaiti embassy and
$ : $ propagated by Congress persons who knew a priori that it was a lie.)
Kuiwat was looted, which was the point of the story.
$
$
$ : This is a mix of distortion and lies
$
$ What parts? You make it even more intriguing by not spell out the
$ distortion and lies.
$
$ : $
$ : $ > _Did_ the Israelis have advance warning?
$ : $ >
$ : $ Indeed the number of Israelis admitted to be present (Is it 4 or 6?)
$ : $ is surprisingly low by one if not two orders of magnitude.
$ : $
$ : $
$ : $ > Here's what I think the American people deserve, at minimum:
$ : $ >
$ : $ > - a credible accounting for the mysterious inflated list-- what was on
$ : $ > it, why was it so long, how did it get misdelivered
$ : $
$ : $ I think you already have credibly explained and accounted for this
$ : $ list: pure disinformation.
$ : $ >
$ : $ > - a public apology for the appearance of cynical opportunism
$ : $
$ : $ I see no appearance here; I see nothing cynical here. What I see is
$ : $ that the Bush administration knows the political reality: That
$ : $ Americans, especially when whipped into a xenophobic fury, are suckers
$ : $ willing to believe the most incredible lies and distortions.
$ : $ Admittedly, most have little time to study the matter, and most are
$ : $ undereducated about the world, but most could, if they took the time
$ : $ to add 2 plus 2 and think a bit about what they are being told, see
$ : $ through the lies of the administration (e.g., that AF1 and the White
$ : $ House were under attack on September 11).
$ : $
$ : $ >
$ : $ > - a credible accounting of Israeli employees in the WTC
$ : $
$ : $ Yes, where did the tens or hundreds of Israelis in the WTC vanish to
$ : $ before 845 am on September 11?
$ : $ >
$ : $ > and most importantly:
$ : $ >
$ : $ > - a national teach-in on Judaism and on the middle east, giving all
$ : $ > sides so that people can make an informed decision
$ : $
$ : $ Yes, there is a crying need for this. As a professor at AUC in Cairo
$ : $ (1984-5) I studied the matter carefully and since then have carefully
$ : $ watched US policy re the subject. It is a matter of historical
$ : $ record, plain to anyone who wants to look into it, that American
$ : $ policy in the Levant has been a continuation of the British policy
$ : $ established at the 1919 Paris peace conference. To wit, a policy of
$ : $ balkanization of the Arab homeland maintained by fomenting continual
$ : $ instability and bickering between the fragmented states of the region.
Being we need oil we want it unstable???
LOL
$ : $ Whenever the Americans have spoken of a peace initiative it has been
$ : $ 100% disingenuous. Recently, America has been pushing Israel’s
$ : $ apartheid solution. A solution akin to that which
$ : $ “solved” the South African racial problems in 1948. There
$ : $ is no fundamental difference between the American/Israeli program of
$ : $ herding Palestinians into “enclaves” and the all-American
$ : $ program of herding First Nations Natives into Indian Reservations in
$ : $ the United States to end the Indian Wars. Both are at root genocidal
$ : $ solutions to a cultural problem motivated by settlers’ greed to
$ : $ steal the land and resources of the natives.
Arafat was offered 90% of what he asked for.
He did not even say no he restarted the terror campain.
This is a lie
$ : $
$ : $ The problem is compounded by the oil resources of the region. The
$ : $ British were motivated by the need to protect their Suez route to
$ : $ India and their BP-owned (half crown-, half-capitalist owned) oil
$ : $ wells near the Persian Gulf. In the 20s the British employed an
$ : $ organized crime family from central Arabia (Nejd) to overthrow the
$ : $ sharif of Mecca, Hussein. Hussein had been promised an Arab homeland,
$ : $ comprising the Ottoman empire’s Arab territories (all of the
$ : $ Arabian peninsula, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan). The British
$ : $ were double-dealing, imperialistic, bastards (I know that’s
$ : $ redundant). So the GodFather of this criminal clan, Ibn Saud, did
$ : $ what he was paid to do and chased Hussein out of the Islamic holy
$ : $ cities of Mecca and Medina. He tried to advance northward but the
$ : $ British stopped him near Aqaba in Jordan, and at the Red Line they
$ : $ hurriedly drew on a map to define Kuwait. But Ibn Saud did capture
$ : $ the seemingly worthless Shiite territory called al Hasa on the Persian
$ : $ Gulf.
Not really true more a lie.
In any event this has little to do with today.
Bingo, oil was found by American prospectors. Pre WWII
$ : $ Standard Oil of California (now Chevron) and The Texas Oil Company
$ : $ (now Texaco) formed Caltex and created the Arab-American Oil Company
$ : $ (Aramco). Jack Philby, a renegade British foreign service officer,
$ : $ taught Ibn Saud that he needed friends in high places in order to cash
$ : $ in on this oil wealth. So the Saudi family stole all the oil in
$ : $ Arabia, from the Arabians, and then made sweetheart deals with
$ : $ American firms to export it to world. Meanwhile, the Americans and BP
$ : $ wheeled and dealed and double dealed with the Iraqis to suppress
$ : $ Iraq’s oil output, somewhat successfully. And, when post WWII
$ : $ Persia became democratic, America had the CIA overthrown its
$ : $ government and install a puppet dictator from the Pahlavi family, more
$ : $ or less creating another totalitarian police state on the model of
$ : $ that in Arabia. Fastforward to the end of the cold war. Shah Pahlavi
$ : $ is already overthrown, and dies an exile in Texas. Iran and Iraq
$ : $ start to crank up oil production. The Saudi’s give their
$ : $ Chevron and Texaco buddies (to whom they are absolutely tied by the
$ : $ incredibly lucrative contract giving the Saudis de jure control of
$ : $ Aramco) an even sweeter oil price arrangement. Reagan becomes
$ : $ increasingly demented; the CIA/Bechtel nexus (Bush, Schultz,
$ : $ Weinberger) become increasingly bold; AWACs planes go to the Saudis;
$ : $ Saudis purchase billions in American-made weapons. Kuwait’s al
$ : $ Sabah family schemes to cut all foreigners out of getting profits from
$ : $ Kuwaiti oil. Kuwait starts to steal Iraqi oil. Iraq protests.
$ : $ America tell Iraq’s Saddam Hussein that, “It’s a
$ : $ purely Arab affair.” Saddam annexes Kuwait, once part of the
$ : $ Ottoman’s Mesopotamian province. Bush springs his trap. Bush
$ : $ destroys Kuwait’s oil fields and teaches the al Sabah family the
$ : $ importance of having friends in high places. Bush embargos Iraq to
$ : $ keep Iraqi oil mostly shut in indefinitely. Saudi oil output more
$ : $ than doubles. The Bush/Bechtel nexus get fat rebuilding Kuwait.
$ : $ American oil firms get rich exporting Saudi oil. American taxpayers
$ : $ pay the bill and bury their dead. Clinton, who is CIA-compromised by
$ : $ involvement in drug running to the Contras, maintains the status quo
$ : $ for eight years. The CIA keeps warning us about terrorism but no
$ : $ measures are taken to protect Americans. Enron, a Texas based
$ : $ multinational energy conglomerate, helps finance Bush 43’s
$ : $ appointment to the Presidency. Enron, probably violating US anti
$ : $ trust laws, fucks all the Californians by fixing the price of
$ : $ electricity and causing rolling blackouts. California’s
$ : $ governor, Gray Davis, sues Enron et al for about $10 billion in
$ : $ rapacious over charges. Enron, Mobil, and Chevron become anxious
$ : $ about their decade-old contracts to export oil and gas from the Former
$ : $ Soviet Republics whose communist dictators gave them sweetheart deals
$ : $ arranged by the Bush41 administration’s cabinet members
$ : $ (Mosbacher and Baker) on their travels as oil industry frontmen.
$ : $ Enron designs a trans-Caspian oil pipeline to deprive the Russians
$ : $ from getting a share of the loot from Kazakhstan’s and
$ : $ Turkmenistan’s oil exports. Bush43 administration officials
$ : $ scurry to meetings with Armenian and Azeri diplomats, seeking peace,
$ : $ seeking to make the region secure so that the trans-Caspian oil
$ : $ pipeline can be built. CIA/FBI continue to do nothing about terrorist
$ : $ threat to domestic security even in the wake of the attack on the USS
$ : $ Cole, even in light of all the published evidence from the embassy
$ : $ bombing trials. Curious? Enron expresses interest in a trans
$ : $ Afghanistan/Pakistan gas pipeline to India. Terrorists kill about
$ : $ 5,000 people at WTC et al. Congress enjoys a Gulf of Tonkin moment.
$ : $ Bush 43 voted dictatorial powers to prosecute an indefinite war;
$ : $ anywhere he chooses, against a pronoun, Them. Bush 43 freezes the
$ : $ assets of four charities with Arabic-sounding names. All
$ : $ American’s are relieved knowing that Osama’s funding
$ : $ sources have dried up. Bush 43 exacerbates the WTC terror attack
$ : $ economic losses by repeatedly uttering frightening and inane phrases
$ : $ such as, “smoke him out”, “dead or alive”,
$ : $ “crusade”, and “infinite justice”. Osama
$ : $ begins to quake in his boots. Bush 43 achieves a trillion dollar loss
$ : $ in one day in equity value, an all time, world record. Bush 43
$ : $ continues to parody Bush 41 and causes a recession, first one since
$ : $ Bush 41 was demonstrating his astute leadership skills. Americans
$ : $ respond to polls saying that they are 90% in favor of Bush 43. Bush
$ : $ 43 closets himself with his advisors seeking 100% endorsement by the
$ : $ American public. More scare language, a public burning of the
$ : $ Constitution, internment camps for the ACLU and computer hackers, and
$ : $ removal of plastic “silverware” from the Library of
$ : $ Congress and all grade school cafeterias are advised; the secret
$ : $ policy package is reduced to a few zippy talking points and labeled
$ : $ “Complete Success” to get the CIA on board. Bush
$ : $ 43’s defense experts focus efforts solely on crushing
$ : $ Afghanistan, cowing Pakistan, and occupying the Central Asian FSRs.
$ : $ Bush 43 spends his nights reading Winston Churchill’s memoirs on
$ : $ the finer points about “draining the swamps”, combating
$ : $ Maoist tactics, and herding women and children from the villages into
$ : $ concentration camps with wafts of poison gas sprayed by crop dusters
$ : $ (opps, sorry, that last was a page from British history in Iraq, er,
$ : $ er, or was it Mussolini’s crusade against the Amharics, or
$ : $ both). Well you can see now the problem: Loose lips sink ships.
$ : $ Americans you’d all be safe in the hands of Il Duce, if we could
$ : $ just make people like Jorn Barger stop pushing their
$ : $ “agendas” on the Internet.
$
$ : Propaganda
$
$ More truth that you know.
No this is bullship wrapped on real events
$
$ Eric
pez
Chomko) wrote:
$ pez (pez...@ntplx.net) wrote:
$ : In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
$ : lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$
$ : $ ni...@somewhere.invalid wrote in message
news:<umfto...@somewhere.invalid>...
$ : $ > > So what are we to make of this?
$ : $ > >
$ : $ ...
$ : $ > But this story doesn't support the evidence. Given 4000 people
$ : $ > working there (and we have to assume this if "4000 absent from
$ : $ > work" is to be considered significant), it is inconceivable that
$ : $ > more than a tiny number of them - if any - had advance knowledge
$ : $ > of the attack, or that more than a smallish minority could have
$ : $ > been warned off without arousing suspicion.
$ : $ >
$ : $ > > The first says there were none, the second says there had been
two, one
$ : $ > > of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other
was on the
$ : $ > > 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
$ : $ >
$ : $ > An insider could have arranged for employees of one company to be
$ : $ > elsewhere. But how many times would this have to be repeated to
$ : $ > begin to approach 4000?
$ : $
$ : $ This is a very important and rational point. I think you have buried
$ : $ the issue. Whether there was 4 or 4000 Israelis at WTC at 845 am on
$ : $ 9/11/2001 is a question that most likely leads nowhere.
$ : $
$ : $ However, that does not dismiss the important observation that the
$ : $ Israelis gave NYC officials knowingly false data, and the White House,
$ : $ an institution with presumably some access to "intelligent"
$ : $ intelligence resources for fact checking, gave a major policy address
$ : $ with false statistics. It's a good and important question whether
$ : $ this was a lie told for "policy purposes" or an innocent mistake.
$ : $ (Here I cannot help but recall the Clinton White House's faux pas of
$ : $ printing invitations for the big Israeli/Arafat love fest, was it in
$ : $ 1993?, with the word Israel spelled "Isreal".)
$ : $
$ : $ What we do know as fact now is that the WH lied about being threatened
$ : $ by a hijacked airplane on 9/11/2001, presumably to shield the POTUS
$ : $ from criticisms of cowardice, such as that in the NYT by Safire. And
$ : $ also we know the big lie that the WH has been repeating to the masses
$ : $ about the terrorists attacking "our way of life", "democracy", "all
$ : $ freedom-loving peoples", etc etc etc.
$ : $
$ : $ Anyone familiar with history, and anyone who has listened to Osama's
$ : $ interview (e.g., Frontline, Esquire) knows that the three chief
$ : $ policies that Osama & Arabian patriots, and the Egyptian Islamic
$ : $ Brotherhood seek are: 1) US forces removed from Arabia, 2) End to US
$ : $ policy of supporting Israel's plans for apartheid, and 3) End of US
$ : $ support for the corrupt Egyptian dictator, Mubarak.
$ : $
$ : $ Beyond these policy changes, if successfully forced, Osama et al think
$ : $ that they'll achieve: a) the overthrow of the Ibn Saud organized crime
$ : $ family, b) democracy under Islamic sharia law as currently exists in
$ : $ Iran, and c) an end to American multinational oil firms claiming about
$ : $ 20% of the value of their oil by force of arms.
$ : $
$ : $ This is the latter day piracy that R. Buckminster Fuller so eloquently
$ : $ condemns in his Operation Manual for Spaceship Earth, "And because the
$ : $ public had never known of them and had been fooled into thinking their
$ : $ kingly stooges and local politicians as being in reality the head men,
$ : $ society was and is as yet unaware either that the Great Pirates once
$ : $ ran the world or that they are now utterly extinct. <paragraph.
$ : $ break> Though the pirates are extinct, all of our international trade
$ : $ balancing and money ratings, as well as all economic accounting, in
$ : $ both capitalist and communistic countries, hold strictly to the rules,
$ : $ value systems, terminology, and concepts established by those Great
$ : $ Pirates." p 35, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1969.
$ : $
$ : $ Fuller thought that the GPs vanished in the crash of 1929. What he
$ : $ did not know then, probably largely because Eisenhower was able to
$ : $ hold them in check, and to bitterly complain about them in his
$ : $ Farewell Address in 1961, coining the term Military Industrial
$ : $ Complex.
$ : $
$ : $ As I have explained elsewhere in these groups, the origin of the
$ : $ resurgence of the GPs, which I refer to as the CIA/Bechtel nexus and
$ : $ other constructions, lies in the history of WWII through the national
$ : $ security acts of 1947, which amongst other things re-instituted the
$ : $ wartime OSS as the CIA. Since that time, under the phrase "national
$ : $ security" the government, not the whole thing for sure, because there
$ : $ are vastly more earnest public servants than there are predators on
$ : $ the prowl in it, has used secrecy under the term "national security"
$ : $ to shield both specific crimes (e.g., complicity in the murder of
$ : $ 500,000 Indonesians in 1965) and an on-going racket whereby the CIA et
$ : $ al creates propitious opportunities for a small cadre of American
$ : $ corporations, and the major (mostly Rockefeller controlled) oil firms
$ : $ get together overseas, in violation of US anti-trust laws, and fix
$ : $ both supply and price in the world oil markets.
$ : $
$ : $ The shock troops of this complex are a set of international
$ : $ construction firms. Now mind you well that the vast majority of what
$ : $ these businesses do is perfectly legal and most of it is arguably
$ : $ beneficial to somebody's economy. Brown & Root owned LBJ in these
$ : $ matters. Bechtel owned Reagan & Bush 41 in these matters.
$ : $ Halliburton, the owners now of Brown & Root, owns Cheney & Bush 43 in
$ : $ these matters. These firms swim symbiotically in a sea of bigger fish
$ : $ with names like Chevron, Mobil, Enron, and Unocal. (When Powell uses
$ : $ the Maoist expression, "Drain the swamp", it's too bad that it isn't
$ : $ this one that he's referring to.)
$ : $
$ : $ The last gasp of legality was had in the US in 1958 when Eisenhower's
$ : $ Justice Dept sought to prosecute these criminals. That year they were
$ : $ blocked by the State Dept for vaguely specified reasons of "national
$ : $ security." Since then America has passed RICO statutes that are
$ : $ clearly applicable. And internationally a War Crimes tribunal has
$ : $ been set up in The Hague. Americans ought to demand the use of these
$ : $ tools to bring justice to the WTC II slaughter and straighten out
$ : $ American policy both at home and abroad.
$ : $
$ : $ The only effect of government secrecy, whether in Stalinist Russia or
$ : $ in America, is to shield specific crimes from prosecution, and to
$ : $ enable an on-going racketeering complex to operate for the long term.
$ : $ There is not one instance in which anything other than temporary
$ : $ operationally specific secrecy can be shown to have benefited the
$ : $ American people. Yet a plethora of crimes of property and crimes
$ : $ against humanity are well known to have been committed and shielded
$ : $ from prosecution by secrecy and so-called "national security."
$
$ : this guy is just a liar
$ : lets hope he dosn't teach your children
$
$ Pez, as much as I admire your patriotic zeal, there is an "Emperor's New
$ Clothes"-aspect to your thinking about America.
$
$ We are not pure.
That is not a fair evaluation.
I know we are not perfect but simply is not true as presented.
This is bits of facts wrapped in lies.
Yes we did install the Sha.
I don't know how to say it anymore bluntly than that.
$ Sure we try and do the right thing most of the time. But face it, we are
$ greedy and have a tendency to speak and act in many different directions
$ all at the same time. In a manner that some people are two-faced, we as a
$ nation, are multi-faced. An example would be having the Peace Corps. and
$ the CIA in the same foreign neighborhood and the locals trying to
$ understand the motives and actions of the "Americans."
That makes no sence.
So we should help people were we also need intel???
One group is
$ trying to save you while the other is trying to kill you.
The CIA collects intel.
Go figure!
$
$ Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9/11/01 was not justified in any way.
$ And we SHOULD and WILL get those responsible. But it cannot end there. We
$ must examine why is it, that if we are as great as we say we are, that
$ many hate us. Too many in fact!
$
$ Eric
Eric Chomko
: > Roy Davis (dark...@i4free.co.nz) wrote:
: > : > > > Bush destroys Kuwait's oil fields
: > : > >
: > : > > This reads to me like the spite of the loser (ie, Saddam), not the
: > : > > tactics of an oilman. You don't burn your own money to teach someone a
: > : > > lesson!
: > : > >
: > : > I base my thesis on: a) the CIA pre-war assurances that Iraqi
: > : > explosives could not knock off the well heads more than about one
: > : > meter below the surface; b) High altitude bombing is a means to snap
: > : > the well heads ten or more meters underground, as was done. c) As I
: > : > have explained elsewhere, one of the American war objectives was to
: > : > destroy Kuwait so that they would henceforth adhere to the Saudi
: > : > doctrine of having friends in high places. d) I saw first hand the
: > : > ill equipped army of boys that Saddam left to be slaughtered in the
: > : > desert, I don't believe they had the time or materiel, or motive to
: > : > destroy the Kuwaiti wells; e) I have my son's eye witness account of
: > : > how terrorized the Iraqi soldiers were, and how easy it was to
: > : > slaughter them in huge numbers; f) American military lied about
: > : > everything else in the war from day one to present, so why ought I to
: > : > think that anything they say about it is worth one cent.
: > : >
: >
: > : I watched a documentary on the discovery channel about the gulf war. and it
: > : had an american general staing that he had to feed the public misinformation
: > : so that they could continue the campaign successfully.
: >
: > : and Im not to sure about bush ordering the destruction of the oil feilds,
: > : but as a strategic manuvere the Iraqi forces torched a alrge amount to jamm
: > : satelitte communications. As you may recall at the time the media and the US
: > : forces announced it was nothing pure revenge for losing the land, when it
: > : was actually an extremely clever military decession.
: >
: > How did it "work?" I mean given the objective of "free Kuwait", are you
: > saying that in the wake of that victory they let their guard down with
: > preserving the oil fields? Or was it sabotage?
: >
: > Eric
: Dear Eric and Roy:
: What I am expounding upon here is the hypothesis that American forces
: destroyed the Kuwaiti oil wells using high-altitude saturation
: bombing. We know for certain that the wells were destroyed. And we
: know for certain that America used more bombs than were dropped in all
: of WWII in Europe. What we don't know is who destroyed the Kuwaiti
: wells. We know for certain that the US military lies to the world as
: a matter of policy. Therefore, we know that nothing they say is
: credible. Hence, we must use our noodles to answer the question.
: As with all crimes, it is a matter of motive and opportunity and
: evidence. We are all aware of these factors insofar as the Iraqis are
..and degree (crimes).
: concerned. What we as a people are generally not aware of are these
: same factors when American forces are put in the dock as the alleged
: culprit.
Yes, that is nicely hidden away.
: In the quote above, I mentioned six bases supporting my hypothesis.
: The third one perhaps requires elaboration, "c) As I have explained
: elsewhere, one of the American war objectives was to destroy Kuwait so
: that they would henceforth adhere to the Saudi doctrine of having
: friends in high places."
: Prior to the war the Kuwaitis were trying to vertically integrate
: their oil industry. This means taking over all aspects from
: production in the desert, to gathering pipelines, loading facilities,
: tanker transportation, refining, distribution, and ultimately
: retailing. To this end, they were setting up retail chains in America
: and Europe. These matters were discussed in several articles in the
: Economist magazine in the late 1980s. After the war, the Kuwaitis
: completely abandoned their attempt at verticle integration.
Okay, given that Iran tried this in 1953, it wasn't about to happen in
Kuwait. I'm passing no judgement about fairness, just bringing up an
historical precedent.
: Prior to the war, the Saudis gave American oil firms better pricing
: deals than anyone else (since 1985, according to Yergin's book). The
: oil firms exporting Saudi crude, principly Chevron and Texaco, had
: every reason to want to increase Saudi oil exports; pre war the Saudis
: were operating at about 40% of full capacity.
: All American firms engaged in activities incidental to the production
: of oil (e.g., infrastruture, refining, retailing) had motives to stop
: the Kuwaitis integration plan; so they could get their "normal" cuts
: of the profits.
But didn't the Iraqi military invade Kuwait? And wasn't the Kuwait royal
family safety wisked away into Suadi Arabia during the Gulf War?
: We know almost nothing about what went on behind closed doors in terms
: of war objectives in Riyahd before and during the Gulf War. We do
: know that the Bush 41 regime was allied with the Bechtel clique (as
: represented in the govt by Schultz, Weinberger, et al) and that
: Bechtel is a huge provider of incidental services, mostly
: construction, for the Saudis especially and for the worldwide energy
: markets. We do know that Cheney, Bush 41's war chief, had every
: incentive to feather his Halliburton nest (it being another
: "Bechtel"); and we do know that Bush 41's sons scrambled immediately
: after the shooting stopped to the war-ravaged Kuwait as frontmen for
: various contractors.
I have no doubt that the victors' spoils were of a self-serving nature.
: I submit to you that there is sufficient motive, opportunity, and
: evidence to indict American commanders for the environmental crime of
: destroying Kuwait's oil wells. There is probable cause to believe
: this hypothesis. What there is not, as yet, is proof beyond a
: reasonable doubt. This is one reason, and a pale one compared to the
: genocidal blockade of Iraq and the bombing of its civilians, that
: American war criminals ought to be tried in The Hague. Otherwise, as
: was the case with FDR goading the Japanese to attack unalerted
: military forces in Hawaii, the matter will be sorted out, and the dead
: chieftains indicted in the history texts some fifty or so years after
: the crime.
Reminds me of the hopeful planned conclusion of the JFK assassination from
within the research community.
: Now, as I have frankly said elsewhere in these groups, I have an ax to
: grind. You should take that into account but you should not let it
: stand between you and the truth.
The truth will set you free?
Eric
Roy Davis
involved and the sort of targets they where after.
since this group had already targeted the WTC before, and mossad warned they
where after major icon sites, then I think it would have been easy to guess.
but I doubt the CIA could have ever guessed that they would use civilian
carrier craft to do the deed. So you cant let the government agency get to
much of a wrap for it.
but they did let known terrorists in which to me is stupid after youve just
received a warning that they are upto something.
"pez" <pez...@ntplx.net> wrote in message
news:pezcleo-2809...@p03-35.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com...
Bloodshed
No, the FBI had arrested somebody for asking for flying lessons. He raised
suspicion when he asked *not* to learn takeoff or landing procedures??!!
I personally think this was fabricated BS by the feds, but if true, I think
they knew what was going to happen. Certainly they could have increased
airport security.
Eric Chomko
: In article <9p2c69$2i3u$1...@news.ums.edu>, ech...@polaris.umuc.edu (Eric
: Chomko) wrote:
: $ pez (pez...@ntplx.net) wrote:
: $ : In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
: $ : lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
: $
: $ : $ ni...@somewhere.invalid wrote in message
: news:<umfto...@somewhere.invalid>...
: $ : $ > > So what are we to make of this?
: $ : $ > >
: $ : $ ...
: $ : $ > But this story doesn't support the evidence. Given 4000 people
: $ : $ > working there (and we have to assume this if "4000 absent from
: $ : $ > work" is to be considered significant), it is inconceivable that
: $ : $ > more than a tiny number of them - if any - had advance knowledge
: $ : $ > of the attack, or that more than a smallish minority could have
: $ : $ > been warned off without arousing suspicion.
: $ : $ >
: $ : $ > > The first says there were none, the second says there had been
: two, one
: $ : $ > > of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other
: was on the
: $ : $ > > 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
: $ : $ >
: $ : $ > An insider could have arranged for employees of one company to be
: $ : $ > elsewhere. But how many times would this have to be repeated to
: $ : $ > begin to approach 4000?
: $ : $
: $ : $ This is a very important and rational point. I think you have buried
: $ : $ the issue. Whether there was 4 or 4000 Israelis at WTC at 845 am on
: $ : $ 9/11/2001 is a question that most likely leads nowhere.
: $ : $
: $ : $ However, that does not dismiss the important observation that the
: $ : $ Israelis gave NYC officials knowingly false data, and the White House,
: $ : $ an institution with presumably some access to "intelligent"
: $ : $ intelligence resources for fact checking, gave a major policy address
: $ : $ with false statistics. It's a good and important question whether
: $ : $ this was a lie told for "policy purposes" or an innocent mistake.
: $ : $ (Here I cannot help but recall the Clinton White House's faux pas of
: $ : $ printing invitations for the big Israeli/Arafat love fest, was it in
: $ : $ 1993?, with the word Israel spelled "Isreal".)
: $ : $
: $ : $ What we do know as fact now is that the WH lied about being threatened
: $ : $ by a hijacked airplane on 9/11/2001, presumably to shield the POTUS
: $ : $ from criticisms of cowardice, such as that in the NYT by Safire. And
: $ : $ also we know the big lie that the WH has been repeating to the masses
: $ : $ about the terrorists attacking "our way of life", "democracy", "all
: $ : $ freedom-loving peoples", etc etc etc.
: $ : $
: $ : $ Anyone familiar with history, and anyone who has listened to Osama's
: $ : $ interview (e.g., Frontline, Esquire) knows that the three chief
: $ : $ policies that Osama & Arabian patriots, and the Egyptian Islamic
: $ : $ Brotherhood seek are: 1) US forces removed from Arabia, 2) End to US
: $ : $ policy of supporting Israel's plans for apartheid, and 3) End of US
: $ : $ support for the corrupt Egyptian dictator, Mubarak.
: $ : $
: $ : $ Beyond these policy changes, if successfully forced, Osama et al think
: $ : $ that they'll achieve: a) the overthrow of the Ibn Saud organized crime
: $ : $ family, b) democracy under Islamic sharia law as currently exists in
: $ : $ Iran, and c) an end to American multinational oil firms claiming about
: $ : $ 20% of the value of their oil by force of arms.
: $ : $
: $ : $ This is the latter day piracy that R. Buckminster Fuller so eloquently
: $ : $ condemns in his Operation Manual for Spaceship Earth, "And because the
: $ : $ public had never known of them and had been fooled into thinking their
: $ : $ kingly stooges and local politicians as being in reality the head men,
: $ : $ society was and is as yet unaware either that the Great Pirates once
: $ : $ ran the world or that they are now utterly extinct. <paragraph.
: $ : $ break> Though the pirates are extinct, all of our international trade
: $ : $ balancing and money ratings, as well as all economic accounting, in
: $ : $ both capitalist and communistic countries, hold strictly to the rules,
: $ : $ value systems, terminology, and concepts established by those Great
: $ : $ Pirates." p 35, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1969.
: $ : $
: $ : $ Fuller thought that the GPs vanished in the crash of 1929. What he
: $ : $ did not know then, probably largely because Eisenhower was able to
: $ : $ hold them in check, and to bitterly complain about them in his
: $ : $ Farewell Address in 1961, coining the term Military Industrial
: $ : $ Complex.
: $ : $
: $ : $ As I have explained elsewhere in these groups, the origin of the
: $ : $ resurgence of the GPs, which I refer to as the CIA/Bechtel nexus and
: $ : $ other constructions, lies in the history of WWII through the national
: $ : $ security acts of 1947, which amongst other things re-instituted the
: $ : $ wartime OSS as the CIA. Since that time, under the phrase "national
: $ : $ security" the government, not the whole thing for sure, because there
: $ : $ are vastly more earnest public servants than there are predators on
: $ : $ the prowl in it, has used secrecy under the term "national security"
: $ : $ to shield both specific crimes (e.g., complicity in the murder of
: $ : $ 500,000 Indonesians in 1965) and an on-going racket whereby the CIA et
: $ : $ al creates propitious opportunities for a small cadre of American
: $ : $ corporations, and the major (mostly Rockefeller controlled) oil firms
: $ : $ get together overseas, in violation of US anti-trust laws, and fix
: $ : $ both supply and price in the world oil markets.
: $ : $
: $ : $ The shock troops of this complex are a set of international
: $ : $ construction firms. Now mind you well that the vast majority of what
: $ : $ these businesses do is perfectly legal and most of it is arguably
: $ : $ beneficial to somebody's economy. Brown & Root owned LBJ in these
: $ : $ matters. Bechtel owned Reagan & Bush 41 in these matters.
: $ : $ Halliburton, the owners now of Brown & Root, owns Cheney & Bush 43 in
: $ : $ these matters. These firms swim symbiotically in a sea of bigger fish
: $ : $ with names like Chevron, Mobil, Enron, and Unocal. (When Powell uses
: $ : $ the Maoist expression, "Drain the swamp", it's too bad that it isn't
: $ : $ this one that he's referring to.)
: $ : $
: $ : $ The last gasp of legality was had in the US in 1958 when Eisenhower's
: $ : $ Justice Dept sought to prosecute these criminals. That year they were
: $ : $ blocked by the State Dept for vaguely specified reasons of "national
: $ : $ security." Since then America has passed RICO statutes that are
: $ : $ clearly applicable. And internationally a War Crimes tribunal has
: $ : $ been set up in The Hague. Americans ought to demand the use of these
: $ : $ tools to bring justice to the WTC II slaughter and straighten out
: $ : $ American policy both at home and abroad.
: $ : $
: $ : $ The only effect of government secrecy, whether in Stalinist Russia or
: $ : $ in America, is to shield specific crimes from prosecution, and to
: $ : $ enable an on-going racketeering complex to operate for the long term.
: $ : $ There is not one instance in which anything other than temporary
: $ : $ operationally specific secrecy can be shown to have benefited the
: $ : $ American people. Yet a plethora of crimes of property and crimes
: $ : $ against humanity are well known to have been committed and shielded
: $ : $ from prosecution by secrecy and so-called "national security."
: $
: $ : this guy is just a liar
: $ : lets hope he dosn't teach your children
: $
: $ Pez, as much as I admire your patriotic zeal, there is an "Emperor's New
: $ Clothes"-aspect to your thinking about America.
: $
: $ We are not pure.
: That is not a fair evaluation.
: I know we are not perfect but simply is not true as presented.
: This is bits of facts wrapped in lies.
: Yes we did install the Sha.
Yeah...
Hey, we act like the old cowboy movies where we are the ones with the
white hats and those we dub as "the enemy" wear black hats. Trust me, we
are dealing with shades of grey hats all the way around.
: I don't know how to say it anymore bluntly than that.
: $ Sure we try and do the right thing most of the time. But face it, we are
: $ greedy and have a tendency to speak and act in many different directions
: $ all at the same time. In a manner that some people are two-faced, we as a
: $ nation, are multi-faced. An example would be having the Peace Corps. and
: $ the CIA in the same foreign neighborhood and the locals trying to
: $ understand the motives and actions of the "Americans."
: That makes no sence.
: So we should help people were we also need intel???
Our intel is even less pure than we are. Not all of it but a certain
select upper crust that gets there through nothing but good-ole-boy
connections.
There is a great book entitled, "Plain Speaking" which is a biography
about Harry S. Truman. Read what Truman had to say about the CIA years
after he created it. Truman was a remarkable president.
: One group is
: $ trying to save you while the other is trying to kill you.
: The CIA collects intel.
Right, and never has any plans of their own? You do remember the Church
Committee and others in the mid to late 70s don't you? They need to stop
thinking that the secrecy is a way to exploit and actually start working.
Rooting out their own bad seeds would be a start.
: Go figure!
: $
: $ Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9/11/01 was not justified in any way.
: $ And we SHOULD and WILL get those responsible. But it cannot end there. We
: $ must examine why is it, that if we are as great as we say we are, that
: $ many hate us. Too many in fact!
: $
: $ Eric
Eric Chomko
: yes and no, the warning was quite specific as to who probably going to
: involved and the sort of targets they where after.
Well given the transition from one administartion to another, THAT may
have played into the timing. Clinton would be out in 2001 regardless
whether Gore won or Bush. The planners of this autrocity may have even had
that in their plan.
: since this group had already targeted the WTC before, and mossad warned they
: where after major icon sites, then I think it would have been easy to guess.
Yes and no. Bush had no experinece with them. And I hate to say it, but
given his house-cleaning approach to taking over, he probably lost key
intel folks that could help him. Daddy was big-shot CIA but out of touch
to some degree. There was a certain swagger that turned and bit the new
regime in the ass. But unlike some of his speaking with this incident I am
not amused. (I was really impressed with his last congressional speech,
-he HAS come a long way).
: but I doubt the CIA could have ever guessed that they would use civilian
: carrier craft to do the deed. So you cant let the government agency get to
: much of a wrap for it.
Part of HUMINT (human intelligence) is weeding out their own bad apples.
THAT needs to occur before we can get a level of commitment needed to
track this vermin all over the world.
: but they did let known terrorists in which to me is stupid after youve just
: received a warning that they are upto something.
Rookie adminstration costly mistake. Let's see what W does. It very well
may define his presidency.
Eric
: "pez" <pez...@ntplx.net> wrote in message
: news:pezcleo-2809...@p03-35.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com...
: > In article <9p0k19$1thm$2...@news.ums.edu>, ech...@polaris.umuc.edu (Eric
: > Chomko) wrote:
: >
pez
Chomko) wrote:
$ pez (pez...@ntplx.net) wrote:
$ : In article <9p2c69$2i3u$1...@news.ums.edu>, ech...@polaris.umuc.edu (Eric
$ : Chomko) wrote:
$
$ : $ pez (pez...@ntplx.net) wrote:
$ : $ : In article <492e0c68.01092...@posting.google.com>,
$ : $ : lawre...@adelphia.net (Dr. Anthony G. Lawrence) wrote:
$ : $
$ : $ : $ ni...@somewhere.invalid wrote in message
$ : news:<umfto...@somewhere.invalid>...
$ : $ : $ > > So what are we to make of this?
$ : $ : $ > >
$ : $ : $ ...
$ : $ : $ > But this story doesn't support the evidence. Given 4000 people
$ : $ : $ > working there (and we have to assume this if "4000 absent from
$ : $ : $ > work" is to be considered significant), it is inconceivable that
$ : $ : $ > more than a tiny number of them - if any - had advance knowledge
$ : $ : $ > of the attack, or that more than a smallish minority could have
$ : $ : $ > been warned off without arousing suspicion.
$ : $ : $ >
$ : $ : $ > > The first says there were none, the second says there had been
$ : two, one
$ : $ : $ > > of which had moved out just two weeks before, while the other
$ : was on the
$ : $ : $ > > 47th floor, but had only 4 or 5 employees present out of 18 total.
$ : $ : $ >
$ : $ : $ > An insider could have arranged for employees of one company to be
$ : $ : $ > elsewhere. But how many times would this have to be repeated to
$ : $ : $ > begin to approach 4000?
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ This is a very important and rational point. I think you have buried
$ : $ : $ the issue. Whether there was 4 or 4000 Israelis at WTC at 845 am on
$ : $ : $ 9/11/2001 is a question that most likely leads nowhere.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ However, that does not dismiss the important observation that the
$ : $ : $ Israelis gave NYC officials knowingly false data, and the White House,
$ : $ : $ an institution with presumably some access to "intelligent"
$ : $ : $ intelligence resources for fact checking, gave a major policy address
$ : $ : $ with false statistics. It's a good and important question whether
$ : $ : $ this was a lie told for "policy purposes" or an innocent mistake.
$ : $ : $ (Here I cannot help but recall the Clinton White House's faux pas of
$ : $ : $ printing invitations for the big Israeli/Arafat love fest, was it in
$ : $ : $ 1993?, with the word Israel spelled "Isreal".)
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ What we do know as fact now is that the WH lied about being threatened
$ : $ : $ by a hijacked airplane on 9/11/2001, presumably to shield the POTUS
$ : $ : $ from criticisms of cowardice, such as that in the NYT by Safire. And
$ : $ : $ also we know the big lie that the WH has been repeating to the masses
$ : $ : $ about the terrorists attacking "our way of life", "democracy", "all
$ : $ : $ freedom-loving peoples", etc etc etc.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ Anyone familiar with history, and anyone who has listened to Osama's
$ : $ : $ interview (e.g., Frontline, Esquire) knows that the three chief
$ : $ : $ policies that Osama & Arabian patriots, and the Egyptian Islamic
$ : $ : $ Brotherhood seek are: 1) US forces removed from Arabia, 2) End to US
$ : $ : $ policy of supporting Israel's plans for apartheid, and 3) End of US
$ : $ : $ support for the corrupt Egyptian dictator, Mubarak.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ Beyond these policy changes, if successfully forced, Osama et al think
$ : $ : $ that they'll achieve: a) the overthrow of the Ibn Saud organized crime
$ : $ : $ family, b) democracy under Islamic sharia law as currently exists in
$ : $ : $ Iran, and c) an end to American multinational oil firms claiming about
$ : $ : $ 20% of the value of their oil by force of arms.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ This is the latter day piracy that R. Buckminster Fuller so eloquently
$ : $ : $ condemns in his Operation Manual for Spaceship Earth, "And because the
$ : $ : $ public had never known of them and had been fooled into thinking their
$ : $ : $ kingly stooges and local politicians as being in reality the head men,
$ : $ : $ society was and is as yet unaware either that the Great Pirates once
$ : $ : $ ran the world or that they are now utterly extinct. <paragraph.
$ : $ : $ break> Though the pirates are extinct, all of our international trade
$ : $ : $ balancing and money ratings, as well as all economic accounting, in
$ : $ : $ both capitalist and communistic countries, hold strictly to the rules,
$ : $ : $ value systems, terminology, and concepts established by those Great
$ : $ : $ Pirates." p 35, S. Illinois Univ. Press, 1969.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ Fuller thought that the GPs vanished in the crash of 1929. What he
$ : $ : $ did not know then, probably largely because Eisenhower was able to
$ : $ : $ hold them in check, and to bitterly complain about them in his
$ : $ : $ Farewell Address in 1961, coining the term Military Industrial
$ : $ : $ Complex.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ As I have explained elsewhere in these groups, the origin of the
$ : $ : $ resurgence of the GPs, which I refer to as the CIA/Bechtel nexus and
$ : $ : $ other constructions, lies in the history of WWII through the national
$ : $ : $ security acts of 1947, which amongst other things re-instituted the
$ : $ : $ wartime OSS as the CIA. Since that time, under the phrase "national
$ : $ : $ security" the government, not the whole thing for sure, because there
$ : $ : $ are vastly more earnest public servants than there are predators on
$ : $ : $ the prowl in it, has used secrecy under the term "national security"
$ : $ : $ to shield both specific crimes (e.g., complicity in the murder of
$ : $ : $ 500,000 Indonesians in 1965) and an on-going racket whereby the CIA et
$ : $ : $ al creates propitious opportunities for a small cadre of American
$ : $ : $ corporations, and the major (mostly Rockefeller controlled) oil firms
$ : $ : $ get together overseas, in violation of US anti-trust laws, and fix
$ : $ : $ both supply and price in the world oil markets.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ The shock troops of this complex are a set of international
$ : $ : $ construction firms. Now mind you well that the vast majority of what
$ : $ : $ these businesses do is perfectly legal and most of it is arguably
$ : $ : $ beneficial to somebody's economy. Brown & Root owned LBJ in these
$ : $ : $ matters. Bechtel owned Reagan & Bush 41 in these matters.
$ : $ : $ Halliburton, the owners now of Brown & Root, owns Cheney & Bush 43 in
$ : $ : $ these matters. These firms swim symbiotically in a sea of bigger fish
$ : $ : $ with names like Chevron, Mobil, Enron, and Unocal. (When Powell uses
$ : $ : $ the Maoist expression, "Drain the swamp", it's too bad that it isn't
$ : $ : $ this one that he's referring to.)
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ The last gasp of legality was had in the US in 1958 when Eisenhower's
$ : $ : $ Justice Dept sought to prosecute these criminals. That year they were
$ : $ : $ blocked by the State Dept for vaguely specified reasons of "national
$ : $ : $ security." Since then America has passed RICO statutes that are
$ : $ : $ clearly applicable. And internationally a War Crimes tribunal has
$ : $ : $ been set up in The Hague. Americans ought to demand the use of these
$ : $ : $ tools to bring justice to the WTC II slaughter and straighten out
$ : $ : $ American policy both at home and abroad.
$ : $ : $
$ : $ : $ The only effect of government secrecy, whether in Stalinist Russia or
$ : $ : $ in America, is to shield specific crimes from prosecution, and to
$ : $ : $ enable an on-going racketeering complex to operate for the long term.
$ : $ : $ There is not one instance in which anything other than temporary
$ : $ : $ operationally specific secrecy can be shown to have benefited the
$ : $ : $ American people. Yet a plethora of crimes of property and crimes
$ : $ : $ against humanity are well known to have been committed and shielded
$ : $ : $ from prosecution by secrecy and so-called "national security."
$ : $
$ : $ : this guy is just a liar
$ : $ : lets hope he dosn't teach your children
$ : $
$ : $ Pez, as much as I admire your patriotic zeal, there is an "Emperor's New
$ : $ Clothes"-aspect to your thinking about America.
$ : $
$ : $ We are not pure.
$
$
$ : That is not a fair evaluation.
$ : I know we are not perfect but simply is not true as presented.
$ : This is bits of facts wrapped in lies.
$ : Yes we did install the Sha.
$
$ Yeah...
$
$ Hey, we act like the old cowboy movies where we are the ones with the
$ white hats and those we dub as "the enemy" wear black hats. Trust me, we
$ are dealing with shades of grey hats all the way around.
$
$ : I don't know how to say it anymore bluntly than that.
$ : $ Sure we try and do the right thing most of the time. But face it, we are
$ : $ greedy and have a tendency to speak and act in many different directions
$ : $ all at the same time. In a manner that some people are two-faced, we as a
$ : $ nation, are multi-faced. An example would be having the Peace Corps. and
$ : $ the CIA in the same foreign neighborhood and the locals trying to
$ : $ understand the motives and actions of the "Americans."
$
$
$ : That makes no sence.
$ : So we should help people were we also need intel???
$
$ Our intel is even less pure than we are. Not all of it but a certain
$ select upper crust that gets there through nothing but good-ole-boy
$ connections.
$
$ There is a great book entitled, "Plain Speaking" which is a biography
$ about Harry S. Truman. Read what Truman had to say about the CIA years
$ after he created it. Truman was a remarkable president.
$
$ : One group is
$ : $ trying to save you while the other is trying to kill you.
$
$ : The CIA collects intel.
$
$ Right, and never has any plans of their own? You do remember the Church
$ Committee and others in the mid to late 70s don't you? They need to stop
$ thinking that the secrecy is a way to exploit and actually start working.
$ Rooting out their own bad seeds would be a start.
They gutted it and in part the failure of intel to pick up the 911 attack
were in part due to Church
Committee reforms.
Intel can be dirty business but it is needed
$
$ : Go figure!
$ : $
$ : $ Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9/11/01 was not justified in
any way.
$ : $ And we SHOULD and WILL get those responsible. But it cannot end there. We
$ : $ must examine why is it, that if we are as great as we say we are, that
$ : $ many hate us. Too many in fact!
$ : $
$ : $ Eric
pez
Chomko) wrote:
$ Roy Davis (dark...@i4free.co.nz) wrote:
$ : yes and no, the warning was quite specific as to who probably going to
$ : involved and the sort of targets they where after.
$
$ Well given the transition from one administartion to another, THAT may
$ have played into the timing. Clinton would be out in 2001 regardless
$ whether Gore won or Bush. The planners of this autrocity may have even had
$ that in their plan.
$
$ : since this group had already targeted the WTC before, and mossad warned they
$ : where after major icon sites, then I think it would have been easy to guess.
$
$ Yes and no. Bush had no experinece with them. And I hate to say it, but
$ given his house-cleaning approach to taking over, he probably lost key
$ intel folks that could help him. Daddy was big-shot CIA but out of touch
$ to some degree. There was a certain swagger that turned and bit the new
$ regime in the ass. But unlike some of his speaking with this incident I am
$ not amused. (I was really impressed with his last congressional speech,
$ -he HAS come a long way).
Actually the people at CIA hated Clinton many walked when the Torchelli
principal was adopted Under Peter Duech(sp) as director.
$
$ : but I doubt the CIA could have ever guessed that they would use civilian
$ : carrier craft to do the deed. So you cant let the government agency get to
$ : much of a wrap for it.
$
$ Part of HUMINT (human intelligence) is weeding out their own bad apples.
$ THAT needs to occur before we can get a level of commitment needed to
$ track this vermin all over the world.
$
$ : but they did let known terrorists in which to me is stupid after youve just
$ : received a warning that they are upto something.
$
$ Rookie adminstration costly mistake. Let's see what W does. It very well
$ may define his presidency.
$
$ Eric
$
$ : "pez" <pez...@ntplx.net> wrote in message
$ : news:pezcleo-2809...@p03-35.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com...
$ : > In article <9p0k19$1thm$2...@news.ums.edu>, ech...@polaris.umuc.edu (Eric
$ : > Chomko) wrote:
$ : >
$ : > $ Roy Davis (dark...@i4free.co.nz) wrote:
$ : > $ : and the british secret serice aswell I think, because if my memory
$ : serves me
$ : > $ : correct it wasnt only the US that was warned of possible attacks.
$ : > $
$ : > $ So M5 and Mossad got a warning that the CIA ignored? If true, then W and
$ : > $ Co. had better better cultivate intel bewteen his and his old man's
$ : > $ presidencies. (I.e. Press into service Clinton's old group to assist in
$ : > $ this matter.) Another example of where a wall between Democrats and
$ : > $ Republicans must come down in the unifying spirit of cooperation, rather
$ : > $ than hedge for political gain. We, the people, should demand and expect
$ : no
$ : > $ less.
$ : > $
$ : > $ Eric
$ : >
$ : > The warning were more like somethings about to happen.
$ : > close to useless
Girolamo
>. The Islamic Brotherhood
>could raise the requisite $300,000 for another WTC attack in one or
>two evening in Cairo. I imagine that the right letter to the Chinese
>could get the funds in an hour.
<----End Snip
???? Surely the WTC attack 9-11 just cost 19 day flight tickets
around $800. The terrorists did not purchase the planes or the fuel
just a oneway ticket each.
Giro