Why equate chaos with evil?
Darren Mark Quinlivan
view of the universe (or whatever) seem to equate Chaos with evil (ie
light and dark, good and bad, chaos and order). I am personally of the
view that there is more truth in saying that Order is a function of evil,
as order is inherently unnatural (certainly in our Universe anyway).
What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
Can anyone else suggest some more books (comic or otherwise 8-) of this ilk.
Darren
David Drysdale
: It seems to me that most sci-fi/fantasy books that deal with a dualistic
: Darren
Yeah -- Louise Cooper, The Initiate / The Outcast / The Master.
The main protagonist turns out to be . . . well, its supposed to
be a surprise in the first book, so I'll just say that the reader
ends up on the side of Chaos.
On a related point (wrong group though), I heard a rumour that the nice
Good
^
Chaos<-+->Order
v
Evil
idea in the Dungeons & Dragons game was changed to just being a
Chaos/Order duality due to bible belt disapprobation in the U.S. (along
with removal of the demons and devils from the game).
Anyone care to confirm or deny?
David Drysdale
Emmet O'Brien
>What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
>chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
>across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
>valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
the best description of an Order/Chaos struggle which is about order and chaos
rather than thinly disguised good and evil is in Louise Cooper's Time Master
trilogy, _The Initiate_, _The Outcast_ and _The Master_, IMHO. She has also
written the Chaos Gate trilogy, set in the same world a generation later,
and the ongoing Star Shadow series, which is set centuries earlier but full
of spoilers for the other books.
Moorcock's Eternal Champion books tend to be equally unflattering to Law
and Chaos, but most of the sword and sorcery centres on heroes restoring
the balance when it's tilted in favour of Chaos, so in practice it's mostly
struggles with Chaos.
Emmet
--
I was a difficult child. I became an easy adolescent.
**/**
>In article <4340j3$2...@styx.uwa.edu.au> dar...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Darren Mark Quinlivan) writes:
>>What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
>>chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
>>across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
>
***Spoiler for Zelazny's Amber***
I'd argue Zelazny's Amber series presents a chaos/order dichotomy
where neither is particularly associated with good nor evil. Sure, Corwin
is son of Oberon, King of Order, but Oberon in turn is son of Dworkin, child of
chaos. Although the Black Road war concerns a mythic struggle with chaos,
the originator of the Black Road is Brand, an Amberite and probably the
only evil character in the series (and he's not really evil, more like
insane). Good and evil as literary themes are sort of pedestrian anyway,
and something a great writer like Zelazny doesn't use for character
justification.
I recommend this series to anyone into fantasy, read it as your
memorial to a great writer gone.
______________________________________________________________________
Obe...@uwyo.edu |"Your mouth, is your religion, you |
GIS Technician to the Stars | put your faith in a hole like that?"|
Past, Present, and Future | Frank Zappa |************************
**********************************************
Carol Moya Tompkins
light. it is called the Time Master Trilogy. The first book is -the
Initiate-, second is -The Outcast-, third is -The Master-. I enjoyed
this series. She also wrote a followup series to this as well as at
least one separate series, but I didn't care for either.
I'd recommend that you give the Time Master Trilogy a try. It's
not the best writing I've ever read, but it is entertaining and worth
reading.
Tor books was the publisher. The respective ISBN numbers of the
three books are: 0-812-53392-5, 0-812-53394-1, 0-812-53396-8. The
copyrights were:1985,1986,1987.
On 12 Sep 1995, Darren Mark Quinlivan wrote:
> It seems to me that most sci-fi/fantasy books that deal with a dualistic
> view of the universe (or whatever) seem to equate Chaos with evil (ie
> light and dark, good and bad, chaos and order). I am personally of the
> view that there is more truth in saying that Order is a function of evil,
> as order is inherently unnatural (certainly in our Universe anyway).
>
> What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
> chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
> across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
> valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
David Rolsky
> Good
> ^
>Chaos<-+->Order
> v
> Evil
>
>idea in the Dungeons & Dragons game was changed to just being a
>Chaos/Order duality due to bible belt disapprobation in the U.S. (along
>with removal of the demons and devils from the game).
>
>Anyone care to confirm or deny?
Well, I haven't played RPGs in quite a while but as far as I know AD&D
(Advanced Dungeons & Dragons) continues to have alignments as pictured above.
Unless TSR has secretly released a 3rd edition of of AD&D very quietly then
I'm sure that is still the case.
Your confusion probably stems from the existence of a game known as D&D
(Dungeons & Dragons) which is also published TSR. This is actually THE
original Dungeons & Dragons although when most people talk about playing
"D&D" or "Dungeons & Dragons" they really mean AD&D (confused yet?). Anyway,
the real D&D (not AD&D), which is very similar to AD&D but simplified in some
ways (it is much less 'realistic' or small-detail oriented than AD&D) has an
alignment system which consists of chaotic (evil), neutral, and lawful
(good). It has always been this way and probably always will be. The more
complicated system you describe is from the AD&D game.
Hope this hasn't been too off-topic but I thought I should clear this one up
before rumors start flying.
Chris Camfield
**/\** <obe...@UWYO.EDU> wrote:
> I'd argue Zelazny's Amber series presents a chaos/order dichotomy
>where neither is particularly associated with good nor evil. Sure, Corwin
>is son of Oberon, King of Order, but Oberon in turn is son of Dworkin, child of
>chaos. Although the Black Road war concerns a mythic struggle with chaos,
>the originator of the Black Road is Brand, an Amberite and probably the
>only evil character in the series (and he's not really evil, more like
>insane). Good and evil as literary themes are sort of pedestrian anyway,
>and something a great writer like Zelazny doesn't use for character
>justification.
With all due respect (and I LOVE Zelazny's books) I have to disagree with
you. The heroes and main characters is Zelazny's Amber books are mainly
Amberites (in spite of the Chaosians in the second series, I think the
Amberites are still ahead in number). In the first series I definitely feel
there is an US-THEM ORDER-CHAOS GOOD-EVIL split. Finally, I can hardly think
of a better word to describe Brand's personality than "chaotic". :)
I know this is a bad question to ask when I changed the subject line, but
what about books that have dark-good light-evil parallels, rather than
light-good dark-evil? I'd like to see some of those!
Chris
--
Christopher Camfield ccam...@uwaterloo.ca
1996 BMath Joint CS/C&O [1998 BA Classical Studies]
Andrew C. Plotkin
> view of the universe (or whatever) seem to equate Chaos with evil (ie
> light and dark, good and bad, chaos and order).
I imagine that this is because life is, well, pretty ordered. You have
to keep your environment awfully neat to stay alive. If you start
doing random things to a person, you'll kill him. Change the
temperature, rearrange bits, add bits, remove bits... corpse. As Niven
said, "Death magic is the easiest magic there is." Conversely, when
someone dies, all the internal patterns (which have remained
throughout life) rapidly break down.
The same goes for higher-level structures, like societies. When the
pattern breaks down, people starve and bleed.
> I am personally of the
> view that there is more truth in saying that Order is a function of evil,
> as order is inherently unnatural (certainly in our Universe anyway).
I have never been able to understand the use of the word "unnatural"
to describe something that exists. :-)
> What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
> chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
> across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
> valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
Mm. What comes to my mind are Modesitt's _The Magic of Recluse_. (Uh,
or was it "Recluce"?) Chaos *is* associated with the bad guys, but
it's made clear that chaos is not *inherently* evil -- it's just
easier to do evil with chaos than it is to do good.
(He wrote a bunch of sequels and prequels in the same universe, but I
didn't like any of those.)
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
Ruchira Datta
Darren Mark Quinlivan <dar...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
>What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
>chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mickey Zucker Reichert's _Last of the
Renshai_ trilogy; it seems like just what you're looking for.
This is not quite in the same vein, but complete order can be associated with
conformity and even totalitarianism. In this sense there are certainly many
good sf stories in which order is associated with the bad guys, e.g., Aldous
Huxley's _Brave New World_, George Orwell's _1984_, and Gene Wolfe's "Forlesen".
(This last I just read a couple of days ago, in his "Castle of Days"
anthology.)
Ruchira Datta
da...@math.berkeley.edu
David Mix Barrington
: :What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
: :valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
I think Robert Anton Wilson's stuff, _The Illuminatus Trilogy_ and
_Schroedinger's Cat_, fit this specification. Eric Raymond, in _The
Hacker's Dictionary_, calls these books the perfect right-brain companion
to Hofstadter's _G\"odel, Escher, Bach_, and of course calls _GEB_ the
perfect left-brain companion to Wilson. This assumes I've got my brain
hemisperes right...
Anyway, they are very wierd but very good books. Read them and you will
understand when someone refers to baseball outfielder Candy Maldonado as
"Banana-Nose", although his nose AFAIK looks nothing like a banana.
Dave MB
(at least one of those Wilson books has a co-author -- Richard Weis?)
F A Levy-Haskell
>It seems to me that most sci-fi/fantasy books that deal with a dualistic
>view of the universe (or whatever) seem to equate Chaos with evil (ie
>light and dark, good and bad, chaos and order). I am personally of the
>view that there is more truth in saying that Order is a function of evil,
>as order is inherently unnatural (certainly in our Universe anyway).
Hmmmm. I suppose that happens because the Judeo/Christian mythos has it
that YHWH created the universe (i.e., Order) out of "the waters" (Chaos,
I suppose)--it isn't a big jump to therefore assume that Order is good
and Chaos is bad. Not that I =agree= with this assumption, you understand,
but it's easy to see why authors raised in our society might be inclined
to make it....
>What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
>chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
>across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
>valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
>Can anyone else suggest some more books (comic or otherwise 8-) of this ilk.
If I'm not mistaken, in Neil Gaiman's =Sandman= series, chaos is neither
bad nor good--it just =is=.....
--
Fred A. Levy Haskell | Jerry Garcia 1942-1995
fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu | "When there were no strings to play
| You played to me" --Robert Hunter
edwa...@cc5.crl.aecl.ca
Geoff
Aaron Bergman
(Darren Mark Quinlivan) wrote:
:It seems to me that most sci-fi/fantasy books that deal with a dualistic
:view of the universe (or whatever) seem to equate Chaos with evil (ie
:light and dark, good and bad, chaos and order). I am personally of the
:view that there is more truth in saying that Order is a function of evil,
:as order is inherently unnatural (certainly in our Universe anyway).
:
:What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
:chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
:across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
:valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
:
:Can anyone else suggest some more books (comic or otherwise 8-) of this ilk.
Try LE Modessit's Recluce series and Louise Cooper's Time-Master and
Chaos-Gate series. They don't quite fit what you're looking for, but
they're close.
Aaron
--------
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://minerva.cis.yale.edu/~abergman/abergman.html>
--A flag burning amendment would burn the flag--
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> "A Plague of Demons", by Laumer. Chaos and Order are equally evil.
Could you please explain what you mean? _A Plague of Demons_ is one of my
favorite Laumers, but what does it have to do with Chaos/Order?
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
FAQs: rec.arts.sf.written, alt.fan.heinlein, alt.pulp, the Liaden Universe
Biblios: how to write SF, the Wandering Jew, miscellaneous SF
Please consider posting (as opposed to e-mailing) ID requests
Online: GIS 461-4062
: In article <falh.81...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (F A
: Levy-Haskell) wrote:
: > dar...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Darren Mark Quinlivan) writes:
: >
: > Hmmmm. I suppose that happens because the Judeo/Christian mythos has it
: > that YHWH created the universe (i.e., Order) out of "the waters" (Chaos,
: > I suppose)--it isn't a big jump to therefore assume that Order is good
: > and Chaos is bad...
: The waters = Chaos? I doubt it. The waters (the Void) would correspond to
: energy. Hmmm. Energy into matter... Where have I heard that before? Hey,
: that would mean that Moses was the first nuclear physicist!
The waters = the void = energy = chaos. As far as the images are
concerned, order is brought out of chaos by the interposition of the sky
(RaQiYA) between the Waters Above (ShaMaYiM, translated as the Heavens) and
the Waters Below (MaYiM). Singularity is translated into multiplicity
through duality. In other words, that first distinction allows any
_thing_ to de distinguished from _everything_.
The idea that matter came from energy is as old as the hills and
twice as dusty. That we keep coming back to it is testimony to the sense
it makes. (I don't want to get into truth.)
: [talk of Donaldson deleted]
: Chaos seems to be a silly word to use for unpredictability, anyway. If
: chaos ever did exist, it wouldn't exist any longer or else it wouldn't be
: chaos!
It _isn't_ a very good word, but no one should think for a moment
that unpredictability "exists." The problem is that the nonexistence of
physical/mathematical choas, being the idea of unpredictability (?), is
different from the nonexistence of mystical chaos, which is the idea
of nonexistence.
: Just because humans can't see the order in something doesn't mean that it
: isn't predictable.
Actually I understood that to be the definition. Who is doing
your predictions, and what species are they?
: David Voth (hv...@cln.etc.bc.ca)
--Saul
--
from Saul R. Epstein
lib...@darknet.com
Clemens Meier
K.E. Wagner's Kane, too, isn't one of the lawful good heroes.
In fact, he seems to be totally unaffected and disinterested
in the good--evil and lawful--chaotic (if I max employ the
AD&D--terms) scales.
Just my 2 Pfennigs.
Clemens
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wo ist denn der Objoke ??? Clemens Meier
Bei Clemens? Nie!! Ok, ok, aber fast nie. clm...@lili.uni-bielefeld.de
GO C+ UL P? L+>++>+++ 3$ E++>+++ N++ K? R+>+++ G''''' !tv b+ D+ !f
Darren Mark Quinlivan
-8< because I wrote it, snip 8<----
: That's a curious notion.
: Order is unnatural in the universe?
: Every living thing on the planet is a product of vastly
: specialized, highly ordered biological, chemical and physical
: reactions. This then would make life on the planet unnatural by
: your definition, and this is clearly not the case. I think you
: need to work on your definitions a little.
I cant resist replying to this, sorry.
The more science examines any so called 'natural' phenomenum the more we
realise that to try and think of nature in terms of ordered patterns is
pure folly. In temrs of living things, the seemingly ordered, specialized
biological processes are driven by pure chaos. Only in a man-made,
ordered laboratory can we be sure of the results of any biological
process. That is why it is impossible to predict how a living system will
react on *any* level to a given system.
Take, for example, pharmacology. If the biological processes governing
how a drug will act when introduced to a living creature where ordered,
the results would be predictable both in time and place. However, if you
give the same drug to the same person twice they will react differently
to it. If you give the same drug to two people, even so called identical
twins, they will more than likely react differently to it. No matter how
hard you try you can not predict with 100% accuracy how a biological
system will act by using ordered principles. Only by using theories of
Chaos can we ever hope to model anything as complex as 'nature'
And besides, many people would claim that life *is* unnatural.
Sorry, I'm rambling. I've wiped the foam from my chin, taken my
medication and calmed down.
Darren
Greg Wilhelm
ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Camfield) wrote:
> In article <1995Sep12.1...@roper.uwyo.edu>,
> **/\** <obe...@UWYO.EDU> wrote:
>> I'd argue Zelazny's Amber series presents a chaos/order dichotomy
>>where neither is particularly associated with good nor evil. Sure, Corwin
>>is son of Oberon, King of Order, but Oberon in turn is son of Dworkin,
child of
>>chaos. Although the Black Road war concerns a mythic struggle with chaos,
>>the originator of the Black Road is Brand, an Amberite and probably the
>>only evil character in the series (and he's not really evil, more like
>>insane). Good and evil as literary themes are sort of pedestrian anyway,
>>and something a great writer like Zelazny doesn't use for character
>>justification.
Did I miss something? I was always under the impression that Corwin's
curse upon Eric was the reason for the Black Road. One scene I remember
in particular was when Corwin killed the two nasty cat creatures and one
of them said "I die the final death, and so I know you, Opener. Why do
you slay us?" Or was that explained away somewhere else?
> With all due respect (and I LOVE Zelazny's books) I have to disagree with
> you. The heroes and main characters is Zelazny's Amber books are mainly
> Amberites (in spite of the Chaosians in the second series, I think the
> Amberites are still ahead in number). In the first series I definitely feel
> there is an US-THEM ORDER-CHAOS GOOD-EVIL split. Finally, I can hardly think
> of a better word to describe Brand's personality than "chaotic". :)
How about Eric? A true son of Amber, but not a very nice guy. In fact,
looking back at it now, none of the children in Corwin's generation were
very nice people. Treachery, deceit, assassination, kidnapping were all
standard for these guys. Looking at them subjectively they could be
called evil. In the second series the Unicorn is, IMO, equally as
good/evil as the snake. Both of them want to rule over everything wihtout
a care for who gets hurt along the way.
> I know this is a bad question to ask when I changed the subject line, but
> what about books that have dark-good light-evil parallels, rather than
> light-good dark-evil? I'd like to see some of those!
Not off the top of my head. There's something nagging at me that says I
should have an example but I can't think of it right now.
--
Greg Wilhelm
wilh...@irdpost.ird.rl.af.mil
The opinions expressed above are mine and no one else's.
S Standiford
: What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
: chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
: across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
: valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
: Can anyone else suggest some more books (comic or otherwise 8-) of this ilk.
How about that fairly old trilogy by Louise Cooper, it titled "The Time
Master" trilogy, or something like that.
The main character in that book (the 'hero' if you will) is of chaos -
literally.
-Fourth Horseman
horse...@aol.com
s.stan...@m.cc.utah.edu
John Novak
>The more science examines any so called 'natural' phenomenum the more we
>realise that to try and think of nature in terms of ordered patterns is
>pure folly. In temrs of living things, the seemingly ordered, specialized
>biological processes are driven by pure chaos. Only in a man-made,
>ordered laboratory can we be sure of the results of any biological
>process. That is why it is impossible to predict how a living system will
>react on *any* level to a given system.
Ah.
Part of the problem here is that we're mixing at least two, if
not three definitions of chaos. One is the philosophical,
quasi-moral dichotomy of Law and Chaos, with big old capital
letters. Another is the more modern definition regarding systems
which operate according to completely deterministic laws, yet are
for various reasons difficult if not impossible to predict.
I do not believe for a moment that when Moorcock, for instance,
writes about Elric and the various Lords of Chaos, that what he
means are Lords of Highly Ill-Conditioned Systems.
Another part of the problem is that I simply disagree with your
claim that thinking about natural phenomenon in terms of ordered
patterns is folly, because by and large, those ordered patterns
exist. They are observable and in many circumstances
predictable. Not all phenomena are perfectly predictable, but
many are.
And the study of how these patterns drifting in the void become
patterns that reinforce themselves, propogate and grow and evolve
can be downright fascinating, which is why I'm somewhat
interested in cellular automata.
I do not believe for a moment that when Moorcock, for instance,
And in many cases, I find people invoking the ideas of chaos
theory as if it were some magic telling us it is impossible to
predict anything. I file these arguments away with the more
egregious misinterpretations of Goedel's Incompleteness
Theorems.
>And besides, many people would claim that life *is* unnatural.
Many people would be foolish.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
The Humblest Man on the Net
Christer Gessler
> Order is unnatural in the universe?
Disorder always increases with time, that's a physical law (part of the thermo-
dynamics, I belive).
To create order in a closed system you cause even more disorder in the outside
system.
> Every living thing on the planet is a product of vastly
> specialized, highly ordered biological, chemical and physical
> reactions. This then would make life on the planet unnatural by
> your definition, and this is clearly not the case. I think you
> need to work on your definitions a little.
To create this order a considerable amount of energy has been used, which now is
in an uncontrolled state spread as heat and photons within the next 4 billion
light years (the age of our planet).
You can always have local order, but it isn't permanent and it always costs.
Arthur Hlavaty
: I think Robert Anton Wilson's stuff, _The Illuminatus Trilogy_ and
: _Schroedinger's Cat_, fit this specification. Eric Raymond, in _The
: Hacker's Dictionary_, calls these books the perfect right-brain companion
: to Hofstadter's _G\"odel, Escher, Bach_, and of course calls _GEB_ the
: perfect left-brain companion to Wilson. This assumes I've got my brain
: hemisperes right...
: Anyway, they are very wierd but very good books. Read them and you will
: understand when someone refers to baseball outfielder Candy Maldonado as
: "Banana-Nose", although his nose AFAIK looks nothing like a banana.
He wears number 23.
: Dave MB
: (at least one of those Wilson books has a co-author -- Richard Weis?)
The late Robert Shea.
--
Arthur D. Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius In Wile E. We Trust
\\\ E-zine available on request. ///
A.X. Lias
Chris Camfield <ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>I know this is a bad question to ask when I changed the subject line, but
>what about books that have dark-good light-evil parallels, rather than
>light-good dark-evil? I'd like to see some of those!
In Zelazny's _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ one of the "good" guys was
Toth, who appeared in the form of the shadow of a horse and who was,
essentially, a sentient patch of oblivion. One of the "bad" guys was
Osiris, who was described as the Angle of the House of Life.
Similarly, in _Lord of Light_, the goddess of night (I forget her name)
was on the side of right.
--
Andrew Lias | anrw...@netcom.com | Finger for PGP key
*-------------------*-------------------------------*----------------------*
Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely
powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is
deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.
Mark Dahlby
>The more science examines any so called 'natural' phenomenum the more we
>realise that to try and think of nature in terms of ordered patterns is
>pure folly. In temrs of living things, the seemingly ordered, specialized
>biological processes are driven by pure chaos.
I thought that the new theories of "chaos" implied that when studied
deeply enought apparent chaos resolved in order. Is that wrong?
>And besides, many people would claim that life *is* unnatural.
I'd like to see this idea defended. How can any product of natural
processes (and if you push it there aren't any others) be considered
unnatural. I think this is a result of Cartesian dualism that divides
the universe into life and non-life when really, I think, they are
just categories that we've developed for our convenience.
>Sorry, I'm rambling. I've wiped the foam from my chin, taken my
>medication and calmed down.
Heck, throw away your meds. Could conversation allows for rambling and
the advantage of the internet is no one can see or cares if the foam
is dripping from your fevered mouth :-)
************************************************************
WRITERS ON THE NET HTTP://WWW.WRITERS.COM
Tutoring/literary mentors, classes, writer's groups.
Please find us on the web or e-mail for information.
**/**
>In article <DEtpB...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
>ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Camfield) wrote:
>Did I miss something? I was always under the impression that Corwin's
>curse upon Eric was the reason for the Black Road. One scene I remember
>in particular was when Corwin killed the two nasty cat creatures and one
>of them said "I die the final death, and so I know you, Opener. Why do
>you slay us?" Or was that explained away somewhere else?
This might be an example of Zelazny changing direction mid-series,
because I recall the section you speak of. But it was my impression that
Brand made the road by spilling "blood of amber" on the primal pattern.
John Novak
>Disorder always increases with time, that's a physical law (part of the thermo-
>dynamics, I belive).
>To create order in a closed system you cause even more disorder in the outside
>system.
How does this argue that order is unnatural?
Temporary, perhaps.
Unnatural, no. If it's unnatural, why is it _here_?
Jeff Tang
>It seems to me that most sci-fi/fantasy books that deal with a dualistic
>view of the universe (or whatever) seem to equate Chaos with evil (ie
>light and dark, good and bad, chaos and order). I am personally of the
>view that there is more truth in saying that Order is a function of evil,
>as order is inherently unnatural (certainly in our Universe anyway).
I've been thinking about this a while and it seems to me that's not quite
true. In fantasy Chaos is usually evil, but in science fiction Order is
evil as often as not. Though it's seldom actually named "Order", as it is in
fantasy, science fiction often can be seen as a conflict between order and
chaos. As often as not the protaganists of science fiction are battling
Order in some form. It may be some totatlitarian "Big Brother" state, an
vast evil empire which has just dissolved it's senate or an evil mechanical
race with red ping pong ball eyes.
>
>What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
>chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
>across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
>valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
>
>Can anyone else suggest some more books (comic or otherwise 8-) of this ilk.
>
>Darren
It's rare in fantasy, but not uncommon in science fiction, just look
around. It's easier to find if you make the assocation between Chaos and
Freedom.
11265-Graham Wills
>The more science examines any so called 'natural' phenomenum the more we
>realise that to try and think of nature in terms of ordered patterns is
>pure folly. In temrs of living things, the seemingly ordered, specialized
>biological processes are driven by pure chaos. Only in a man-made,
>ordered laboratory can we be sure of the results of any biological
>process. That is why it is impossible to predict how a living system will
>react on *any* level to a given system.
Chaos Theory is fast replacing Relativity for the "little knowledge is a
dangerous thing" award. This looks like one of those posts.
OK. Now "chaos" is the non-scientific sense (as used in fantasy, e.g.) means
somthing without form or pattern. Webster's: "a confused unorganized state"
Scientifically, chaos theory says a system is chaotic if it has sensitive
dependence on initial conditions. An effect of that is that practical
prediction is impossible.
Darren may well be correct when he states that many natural biological
phenomena are 'chaotic' in the scientific sense, but this does not mean that
they are in a 'confused unorganized state'. On the contrary, any
(scientific) chaotic system performs under clearly defined, well-organized
and generally simple rules. The paradox of chaos theory is that very well
ordered systems that are both non-random and unambigously defined can
lead to results that appear random.
So nature may be a chaotic system, but that doesn't mean it is chaos. It may
well be driven by ordered well-defined systems which nonetheless produce
unpredictable results.
In summary: Chaotic systems are systems of LAWS, but laws that produce CHAOS
when run.
-Graham Wills
--
Graham Wills Data Visualization / Software Research (11265)
gwi...@research.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories, Indian Hill, Naperville IL
karl Griffin
> In article <wilhelmg-140...@128.132.193.140>, wilh...@irdpost.ird.rl.af.mil (Greg Wilhelm) writes:
> >In article <DEtpB...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> >ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Camfield) wrote:
> >Did I miss something? I was always under the impression that Corwin's
> >curse upon Eric was the reason for the Black Road. One scene I remember
> >in particular was when Corwin killed the two nasty cat creatures and one
> >of them said "I die the final death, and so I know you, Opener. Why do
> >you slay us?" Or was that explained away somewhere else?
> This might be an example of Zelazny changing direction mid-series,
> because I recall the section you speak of. But it was my impression that
> Brand made the road by spilling "blood of amber" on the primal pattern.
Your both right. Both actions reduced order and allowed chaos to make
inroads into territory that Amber had control off. It was a compound
effect not a one or the other type of thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Griffin
Carleton University
Email address: kgri...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
jpat...@forest.drew.edu
>> That's a curious notion.
>> Order is unnatural in the universe?
>
> To create order in a closed system you cause even more disorder in the
> outside system.
> You can always have local order, but it isn't permanent and it always costs.
This makes it unnatural? Order still occurs naturally, as far as I can
see, regardless of its effects elsewhere.
--Jane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
* jpat...@drunivac.drew.edu *
* Our dreams are our only real life. --Frederico Fellini *
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debora Offer
>> In article <wilhelmg-140...@128.132.193.140>, wilh...@irdpost.ird.rl.af.mil (Greg Wilhelm) writes:
>> >In article <DEtpB...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Camfield) wrote:
>> >I was always under the impression that Corwin's
>> >curse upon Eric was the reason for the Black Road.
>> But it was my impression that
>> Brand made the road by spilling "blood of amber" on the primal pattern.
>Your both right. Both actions reduced order and allowed chaos to make
>inroads into territory that Amber had control off. It was a compound
>effect not a one or the other type of thing.
I got the impression that spilling blood "opened" the road and the curse
made the road "evil". Without the curse, any creature could travel the
road to Amber. With the curse, only Amber's enemies could do so.
(
stupid
newsreader
--
\__ __/ Debora dao...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu \__ __/
T any opinions expressed are mine, not necessarily my employers T
``We have to show we will not tolerate this kind of intolerance,''
- Carolyn Sullins protesting at a KKK rally.
Richard Treitel
[snip]
>Look at a natural forest - *no* order to where the trees are.
Look at a rainbow - *no* order to where the colours are?
Listen to a songbird.
-- Richard
"Some magics *are* distinguishable from any advanced technology."
(If my employer holds these views, it hasn't told me.)
John Novak
>In article <43jsef$8...@styx.uwa.edu.au>,
> dar...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Darren Mark Quinlivan) writes:
>>Look at a natural forest - *no* order to where the trees are.
>Look at a rainbow - *no* order to where the colours are?
I'm not convinced that there is no order to where the trees in a
natural forest are. Certainly the distribution is not
_completely_ uniform-- trees need to be a certain distance away
from each other to grow properly.
I'd be willing to bet there's a fractal pattern to the
distribution.
Jerry Bryson
>In <43s8h0$k...@cegt201.bradley.edu>, j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) writes:
>river tributaries) can be modelled using fractal mechanics.
>
>Marc Sanders
That's right. I read somewhere, somebody pointed out that disease is predictable (i.e. orderly) while health is not
mls...@ibm.net
>>In article <43jsef$8...@styx.uwa.edu.au>,
>> dar...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Darren Mark Quinlivan) writes:
>>>Look at a natural forest - *no* order to where the trees are.
>
>>Look at a rainbow - *no* order to where the colours are?
>
>I'm not convinced that there is no order to where the trees in a
>natural forest are. Certainly the distribution is not
>_completely_ uniform-- trees need to be a certain distance away
>from each other to grow properly.
>
>I'd be willing to bet there's a fractal pattern to the
>distribution.
IIRC, many of the "random" distributions in nature (like placement of
Tom Burke
sms...@u.cc.utah.edu "S Standiford" writes:
> Darren Mark Quinlivan (dar...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au) wrote:
>
> : What I want to know is are there any good sci-fi or fantasy stories where
> : chaos is _not_ associated with 'the bad guys'. The only stories I've come
> : across are the books of Nemesis the Warlock (I view comics as a perfectly
> : valid form of fiction literature, disagree if you like but I don't care).
> : Can anyone else suggest some more books (comic or otherwise 8-) of this ilk.
>
On a general point, you could argue that the tolerance of alternative views, of
eccentricity, etc, is "chaotic" - ie, the populace is not ordered in its
behaviour or views - but such tolerance (and therefore chaos) is a fundamental
point about modern democracies. Whereas the more ordered societies sometimes
exhibit some extremely evil traits - the final solution, ethnic cleansing, etc.
--Tom Burke
**/**
>In article <43jsef$8...@styx.uwa.edu.au>,
> dar...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Darren Mark Quinlivan) writes:
>
> [snip]
>
geographer about discernable patterns in a natural landscape (forest
or otherwise) and you'll get a much different answer.
>
>Look at a rainbow - *no* order to where the colours are?
>
>-- Richard
>
>"Some magics *are* distinguishable from any advanced technology."
>
>(If my employer holds these views, it hasn't told me.)
>
John Novak
>>I'd be willing to bet there's a fractal pattern to the
>>distribution.
>IIRC, many of the "random" distributions in nature (like placement of
>river tributaries) can be modelled using fractal mechanics.
The list is a substantial one-- from blood vessels in the human
body to leaf and tree shapes to the distribution of galaxies in
the cosmos, if I recall.
But unlike a real-life associate of mine, I'm not to make the
logical fallacy of asserting that, because some things fit the
model, all things fit the model.
Jon Kay
>In article <DEtpB...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
>ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Camfield) wrote:
>> what about books that have dark-good light-evil parallels, rather than
"City of Illusion," by Ursula LeGuin. Pertinent quotation:
"Remember that when you walk in the darkness of the bright lights of
Es Toch."
This is pretty common imagery, actually (and not reserved to SF). The
usual situation involves some inhuman result of modernism (can't remember
if 1984 and Brave New World include this; THX1192 sure does).
Brin's current "Brightness Reef" has conflict between the two
orientations as a subtheme, but it doesn't get into the texture of the
novel the way it does in "City of Illusion" and other books. I guess
that's what makes me think of "City of Illusion" - the depiction of
evil as a source of terribly bright light is so vivid and so much a
part of the book's basic conflict.
As a rabid postmodernist, I myself am more likely to think in these
terms than in the more traditional-seeming dark/evil association.
Jon
jp...@shrsys.hslc.org
HEARTS AND THREE LIONS has a universe where order & chaos conflict and
humans are on the borderlands, just inside the order side with elves
just on the other side. There was a line about the Elvish Lords and
no one ;knowing what they will do next - not even themselves. Some-
time in, I think, ;the 1950's, Ted Sturgeon (I think) had a story in
FANTASTIC where it wasn't so much order vs. chaos as anabolism vs.
catabolism, building up vs. tearing down. Seems the ideal is a
bal;ance and whenever one side gets the upper hand, creatures like
Morgan le Fay (yes, it's an Arthurian story as well) tip the balance
back. IMplied in Moorcock's stories is a similar idea that Order and
Chaos have to be some sort of cosmic metabolic total balance though
one side or the other might be ascendant in any one spacetime. Neither
comes off as good with ;Moorcock.
J. B. Post
11265-Graham Wills
>>>Look at a natural forest - *no* order to where the trees are.
>I'm not convinced that there is no order to where the trees in a
>natural forest are. Certainly the distribution is not
>_completely_ uniform-- trees need to be a certain distance away
>from each other to grow properly.
I did some work on spatial distributions which included trees, and there
tends to be two main effects. One, the inhibition you mention, and two,
clustering at a larger scale.
>I'd be willing to bet there's a fractal pattern to the
>distribution.
A fractal correlation function can be used to model the large scale
clustering pattern (so you win the bet if anyone took it), but it clearly
breaks down at smaller granularity
Nancy Lebovitz
Law vs. Chaos fiction is. THaTL isn't one of those we-need-a-balance
books--Chaos is clearly identified with evil, even to the extent of
putting the Nazis on the side of chaos. (I consider that dubious--at
least overtly, the Nazis were pro-order.)
By the way, I recommend THaTL--the writing (especially the skilled
use of archaic words) and the fight scenes are excellent. It's
one of those novels from the good old days when a *lot* would
happen in 150 pages.
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
NEW EDITION of the calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Doom's Shadow
chaos is natural.
The problem with this is, while entropy is often scientifically equated with
chaos, it actually goes more with the everyday concept of *oppressive order!*
Entropy is actually related to the uniform distribution of energy, and
therefore eventually leads to stagnation, not wild chaos. It's also inversely
related to usable or "active" energy. Therefore as entropy increases, the
amount of energy that effects the universe and thus the amount of change in the
universe decreases.
Jo Walton
nan...@universe.digex.net "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
> I just reread THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS, and I wonder what the earliest
> Law vs. Chaos fiction is.
Moorcock, who wrote a *lot* of Chaos-Order novels, attributes the idea to Poul
Anderson's first fantasy _The Broken Sword_. While this is one of my favourite
books for a number of reasons, a lot of people don't seem to like it. It is
pre-Tolkien - actually simultaneous with publication of LOTR.
THaTL isn't one of those we-need-a-balance
> books--Chaos is clearly identified with evil, even to the extent of
> putting the Nazis on the side of chaos. (I consider that dubious--at
> least overtly, the Nazis were pro-order.)
>
> By the way, I recommend THaTL--the writing (especially the skilled
> use of archaic words) and the fight scenes are excellent. It's
> one of those novels from the good old days when a *lot* would
> happen in 150 pages.
I'd recommend _The Broken Sword_ for much the same reasons, but it is not as
light as _Three Hearts_.
--
Jo
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- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
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