Global Alert For All: Jesus is Coming Soon

[Dave Van Domelen]

Yes, this was hand-posted to alt.hell and back. Retroactively moderate
this twink, eh?
Dave Van Domelen, where will it show up next? The Shadow Knows....

[Andrew Solovay]

My, September's come early this year.
--
Andrew Solovay

"Cottleston, cottleston, cottleston pie."
-- Pooh

[F Andrew McMichael]

Is this a CFV we're supposed to vote on? If so, Could someone
please forward my 'I vote NO for the beginning of the apocalypse'
to Ron Dippold?

:)

--
Andrew McMichael amcm...@mason1.gmu.edu

Thiry spokes converge upon a single hub; It is on the hole in the center that
the use of the cart hinges. -Lao Tzu

[Christopher Samuel]

[Cc'd to the originator of this debacle and his postmaster]

In article <MERLYN.94J...@kelly.teleport.com> of news.admin.misc,
mer...@ora.com (Randal L. Schwartz) doodled:

> >>>>> "Joseph" == Joseph E Greco <jgr...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu> writes:
> Joseph> Has _anybody_ noticed this message posted in various groups?
> Joseph> It's in each of the ten randomly-selected groups I looked in,
> Joseph> and it is NOT cross-posted. I am extrapolating that it was
> Joseph> posted to most groups.
>
> Well, I forge-cancelled the one in comp.lang.perl.
>
> Who's going to volunteer to do it everywhere else?

I'm sending out the cancels (around 1120 of them) at the moment. This
will get all the ones that Aberystwyth carries, but there may be other
left around.

Another major win for Perl, all hail Larry Wall, saviour of the
Universe.

I will post the log of what it got when it has completed.

Chris
--
Christopher Samuel, Computer Unit, U.W Aberystwyth, Aberystwyth, WALES
E-mail: c...@aber.ac.uk PGP 2.3 public key available on request
Warning! Somebody reset junk--assuming nothing read.

[Ken Weaverling]

Because of idiots like this, periodic postings regarding idle newsgroups
for x days are kind of useless!

At least comp.lang.clu got some traffic finally....

--
Ken Weaverling we...@dtcc.edu |*| Stanton: +1 302 454-3978
Manager of Computer Services |*| Wilmington: +1 302 573-5460
Stanton/Wilmington Campuses of |*|-----------------------------------
Delaware Technical & Community College |*| (My opinions != college's position)

[Christopher Samuel]

In article <1994Jan18.1...@aber.ac.uk> of news.admin.misc,
c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) doodled:

> In article <MERLYN.94J...@kelly.teleport.com> of news.admin.misc,
> mer...@ora.com (Randal L. Schwartz) doodled:
>

> > Well, I forge-cancelled the one in comp.lang.perl.
> >
> > Who's going to volunteer to do it everywhere else?
>
> I'm sending out the cancels (around 1120 of them) at the moment. This
> will get all the ones that Aberystwyth carries, but there may be other
> left around.

Well, there were around 1180 odd of them in the end. I hope I didn't
get any other postings from that same machine in the process.. :-)

> I will post the log of what it got when it has completed.

They'll come in 2 seperate messages, as there were so many of them. :-(

[Christopher Samuel]

If you don't want to see this, hit 'n' now.

Chris

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[Rich Salz]

In <1994Jan18.1...@aber.ac.uk> c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
>I'm sending out the cancels (around 1120 of them) at the moment. This
>will get all the ones that Aberystwyth carries, but there may be other
>left around.

I am sure that other people will also do this. I would like to suggest
that, to avoid flooding the net with duplicate cancels, when cancelling a
"robo-poster" like the one mentioned above, take the original Message-ID,
and prefix with the string "cancel-". For example, the mesage cancelling
this article would have
Message-ID: <cancel-1...@uunet.uu.net>

Thanks.
/r$

[Frederick Scott]

clar...@orion.cc.andrews.edu (Clarence L. Thomas IV) writes:

>The earthquake in Los Angeles, California, the flood in Europe, the seemingly
>unstoppable war in the former Yugoslavia, the devastating fires in Australia,
>the flood in the Midwest of the United States of America, the devastating fires
>near Los Angeles, California, the rapid and appalling increase in violence in
>cities, towns, villages all over the world, the famines, the diseases, the rapid
>decline of the family unit, and the destructive earthquake in India (in 1993)
>are signs that this world's history is coming to a climax. The human race
>has trampled on God's Constitution, as given in Exodus 20:1-17 (King James
>Version Bible), and Jesus is coming to set things right. These rapidly
>accelerating signs are an indication that Jesus is coming soon (Matthew 24).

Oh, get a grip. It was only a 6.6. There are dozens of them every century
in California alone. We just happened to build a city near this one.

Fred

[Leigh Melton]

c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:

> This is the last part - hit 'n' now to skip it.

[list deleted]

I found these logs so informative and educational, I think I'll email a
copy to Mr. Clarence L. Thomas IV. After all, if *I* found them so
entertaining, he most assuredly will too.

Maybe I'd better email them twice, just to make sure he gets them.

L.

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| Leigh Melton | |
* le...@nbi.com * "I truly believe in bugs." *
| | |
* Postmaster and general * - Ivor Cutler *
| tyrant of NBI, Ltd. | |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

[Christopher Samuel]

This is the last part - hit 'n' now to skip it.

Chris

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[MegaZone]

le...@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) shaped the electrons to say:

>c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
>I found these logs so informative and educational, I think I'll email a
>copy to Mr. Clarence L. Thomas IV. After all, if *I* found them so
>entertaining, he most assuredly will too.
>Maybe I'd better email them twice, just to make sure he gets them.

Mail bombing someone accomplishes very little. Deleting email is very
simple. All it can do is tie up the spool for all the users...

Much better is mailing postmaster at the user's site with a well written,
rational complaint.

Tell them what the user did, and ask that the appropriate measures be taken.

That will get you much farther than dumping mail in the users spool.

--
mega...@wpi.wpi.edu mega...@world.std.com mega...@hotblack.schunix.dmc.com
"I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!"
Moderator: WPI anime FTP site, 130.215.24.1 /anime, the anime FanFic archive;
rec.arts.anime.stories, questions to anime-dojin...@wpi.wpi.edu
GTW d-- -p+ c++(++++) l u+ e+ m+(*)@ s++/+ !n h- f+ !g w+ t+@ r+@ y+(*)

[Christopher Samuel]

In article <125br...@uunet.uu.net> of news.admin.misc,
rs...@uunet.uu.net (Rich Salz) doodled:

This thought occured to me as well, unfortunately it occured *after*
the perl script had finished.. sigh..

However, definately a good convention to use from here on in, but let's
just hope that it never needs to be used on this scale again..

[J Lee Jaap]

sol...@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
|>
|>My, September's come early this year.

January's almost as bad. Any word from this xxxx's newsadmin yet?
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L....@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
employed by, not necessarily speaking for, AS&M Inc,
at NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001

[Larry Wall]

In article <1994Jan18.1...@aber.ac.uk> c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
: Another major win for Perl, all hail Larry Wall, saviour of the
: Universe.

No, I'm just a helper.

Larry Wall
lw...@netlabs.com

[Catsclaw]

In article <2hghtn$r...@portal.gmu.edu>,

F Andrew McMichael <amcm...@mason1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>Is this a CFV we're supposed to vote on? If so, Could someone
>please forward my 'I vote NO for the beginning of the apocalypse'
>to Ron Dippold?
>

Don't be a wet blanket. I vote YES for the beginning of the
apocalypse.

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Ever since I was [] Chris Bergstresser
a young boy, [] cbergstr@
[] magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
I've played the silver ball" []
[] GCS/T/O d* p- c++ l- m+
-- Pete Townshend [] s-/+ g+ w+ t+ r+ x+
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

[Joel Furr]

Unfortunately, due to the cancels, I have not actually SEEN this post
that has everyone so upset. Will someone please mail me a copy?

[Sridhar Venkataraman]

rs...@uunet.uu.net (Rich Salz) writes:

Now we await John Stanley's posting claiming this to be RFC non-compliant.

Sridhar.
--
Sridhar Venkataraman ASU, Tempe, Arizona USA sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu

[Jim Jewett]

In article <1994Jan18.1...@aber.ac.uk>,
Christopher Samuel <c...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:

>I'm sending out the cancels (around 1120 of them) at the moment. This
>will get all the ones that Aberystwyth carries, but there may be other
>left around.

In the future, could you leave the posts to alt.usenet.kooks, and,
depending on your malice, *.test?

-jJ _____
|\ /|
Take only memories. ji...@eecs.umich.edu | 0 |
Leave not even footprints. jew...@pitt.edu |/_\|

[Jim Jewett]

In article <940118.143610.4...@nbi.com>,

Leigh Melton <le...@nbi.com> wrote:
>c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:

>> This is the last part - hit 'n' now to skip it.

>[list deleted]

>I found these logs so informative and educational, I think I'll email a
>copy to Mr. Clarence L. Thomas IV. After all, if *I* found them so
>entertaining, he most assuredly will too.

Cool! That way he'll know which ones he has to send again, instead
of just sending them _all_ again. :[

[Patrick A. Townson]

In article <1994Jan18.1...@aber.ac.uk> c...@aber.ac.uk
(Christopher Samuel) writes:

> This is the last part - hit 'n' now to skip it.

> Chris

(There then followed hundreds of lines of cancellations) ...

My goodness! Did you type in all those control/cancel messages by
hand over and over? Was it really worth the bother? Wouldn't
the message have expired in its own good time anyway? (and given
the volume of traffic that probably would not have been very long).

Or did you write a script which went newsgroup by newsgroup grabbing
what was needed then dealing with it, etc ...

Either way, seems like a waste of time just to get rid of a message
dealing with Seventh Day Adventist stuff that would vanish on its
own anyway given a few days at most.

PAT

[David P. Murphy]

>When God's Law (the Constitution for the Universe) is consistently ignored,
>disregarded, changed, and questioned, He permits certain events to occur to
>wake us up.

>
>clar...@orion.cc.andrews.edu (Clarence L. Thomas IV)

"wake us up"? more like "kill us", eh?

ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy When every one is dead
(systems programmer at large) the Great Game is finished
d...@access.digex.net not before.
a personal account COGITO, ERGO DISCLAIMUM --- Hurree Babu, "Kim"

[Mr D Bromage]

I have a suggestion for Clarence.

echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx]sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq' |dc

Cheers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bromage _--_|\ bro...@ccds.cc.monash.edu.au
Department of Chemistry / \ bro...@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au
Monash University, \_.--.*/ Phone: +61 3 905 4513
Clayton, Victoria, 3168 v Fax: +61 3 905 4597
Australia Through the wonders of ASCII, my .sig
says that Monash University is in Dubbo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul Callahan]

c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:

>Another major win for Perl, all hail Larry Wall, saviour of the
>Universe.

Is there a policy statement on this kind of cancellation? I agree
that in this instance it was certainly justified for reasons of
excessive resource use. But at the same time, it *looks* like the
suppression of a particular religious viewpoint. I think that
it is important to outline the precise reasons for making the
cancellation in order to make sure this case is not a precedent
for official cancellations on less clear-cut grounds.
--
"He ought to be dead, don't you know, after such a festive experiment."
========= Paul Callahan ======== call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu ==============

[Dani Zweig]

call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan):

>I agree that in this instance it was certainly justified for reasons of
>excessive resource use. But at the same time, it *looks* like the
>suppression of a particular religious viewpoint. I think that
>it is important to outline the precise reasons for making the
>cancellation in order to make sure this case is not a precedent
>for official cancellations on less clear-cut grounds.

I disagree. What you say looks unobjectionable at first glance, but
an 'official' policy would serve no useful purpose. For one thing,
it wouldn't provide guidance, since it would necessarily appeal to
commonsense with words such as "unreasonable", "excessive", etc.
For another, what's an 'official' cancellation on Usenet?

Yes, this case is a precedent -- but it doesn't seem like a bad
precedent. Until abuses start turning up with some frequency, there's
not much point in creating red tape in hopes of preventing them.

-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity." -- W.B. Yeats

[Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.]

In article <CJuz4...@eecs.nwu.edu>, ptow...@eecs.nwu.edu (Patrick A. Townson) writes:
> Either way, seems like a waste of time just to get rid of a message
> dealing with Seventh Day Adventist stuff that would vanish on its
> own anyway given a few days at most.

The idea, as I see it, is to get rid of the article before the majority of
users see it and start discussing it. Such discussions can go on for weeks
(months, sometimes!) and occasionally overwhelm the normal traffic in a news-
group.

Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing
te...@spcvxa.bitnet St. Peter's College, Jersey City, NJ USA
te...@spcvxa.spc.edu +1 201 915 9381

[Christopher Samuel]

In article <2hidl3$h...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> of news.admin.misc,
call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) doodled:

> c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
>
> >Another major win for Perl, all hail Larry Wall, saviour of the
> >Universe.
>
> Is there a policy statement on this kind of cancellation? I agree
> that in this instance it was certainly justified for reasons of
> excessive resource use. But at the same time, it *looks* like the
> suppression of a particular religious viewpoint. I think that
> it is important to outline the precise reasons for making the
> cancellation in order to make sure this case is not a precedent
> for official cancellations on less clear-cut grounds.

To me, at least, the content was unimportant, it was the size and
the number of the messages that meant that a quick global cancel
was necessary. Here's my reasoning (from a mail message to someone
who asked me why I did it).

I *hope* this reasoning is valid.. :-)

[start extract]
A quick bit of maths [assuming a full feed]:

Each of his messages was over 6K long, and he posted to 1180 groups.
That's just over 7Meg's, not an inconsiderable amount to transfer over a
modem. Even by NNTP over a megastream link that will take the order of
minutes.

Each cancel message I sent was around 0.5K, so I generated an extra
600K-700K of traffic, which hopefully would have got to a lot of the
Internet->UUCP feeders *before* they had batched the messages up. Even
if they didn't, and the batches to the front-line UUCP sites went out,
the cancels should have hit the messages *before* they batched up any
more to downstream UUCP sites.

So this cancel storm would have resulted in freeing up an extra 6.5Mb
for sites who'd received it, and used an extra 600K for sites which
hadn't.
[end extract]

[The Dark Mage]

>Unfortunately, due to the cancels, I have not actually SEEN this post
>that has everyone so upset. Will someone please mail me a copy?

Check out alt.tv.mst3k for a great MSTification of it... (it quotes the
entire article)... Also, the original (or a repost of it, more likely)
is on alt.illuminati...

--dm

[Paul Callahan]

da...@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

>I disagree. What you say looks unobjectionable at first glance, but
>an 'official' policy would serve no useful purpose. For one thing,
>it wouldn't provide guidance, since it would necessarily appeal to
>commonsense with words such as "unreasonable", "excessive", etc.
>For another, what's an 'official' cancellation on Usenet?

>Yes, this case is a precedent -- but it doesn't seem like a bad
>precedent. Until abuses start turning up with some frequency, there's
>not much point in creating red tape in hopes of preventing them.

I'm not talking about creating any red tape. There is not really
anyone to administer it anyway. I just think that the initiators of
the cancellation should write a one page summary of their motivation
to attempt record precisely *what* precedent has been set. I agree
that no such statement can be unambiguous, but I don't see how the
absence of *any* explanation is to be preferred.

While I disagree with both the content of the posting and the method
of dissemination, and consider the freeing of disk space and bandwidth
to be a good thing, I find the gloating over its cancellation to be
distasteful insofar as it stems from disagreement with the content
of the article rather than the practical benefit of freed resources.

[Arthur Rubin]

In <1994Jan19.1...@aber.ac.uk> c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:

>I *hope* this reasoning is valid.. :-)

>[start extract]
>A quick bit of maths [assuming a full feed]:

>Each of his messages was over 6K long, and he posted to 1180 groups.
>That's just over 7Meg's, not an inconsiderable amount to transfer over a
>modem. Even by NNTP over a megastream link that will take the order of
>minutes.

>Each cancel message I sent was around 0.5K, so I generated an extra
>600K-700K of traffic, which hopefully would have got to a lot of the
>Internet->UUCP feeders *before* they had batched the messages up. Even
>if they didn't, and the batches to the front-line UUCP sites went out,
>the cancels should have hit the messages *before* they batched up any
>more to downstream UUCP sites.

Well, actually, we're an end node (even though we are on the Internet), and
we probably only got the messages in the (280) groups we receive, but we
got most of the control messages, so we only saved about .7 M (less if our
cluster size is more than 1K), but it still seems worthwhile.
--
Arthur L. Rubin: a_r...@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
216-...@mcimail.com 7070...@compuserve.com art...@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.

[daniel r. reitman, attorney to be]

In article <1994Jan19.1...@aber.ac.uk>,
c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
>In article <2hjc6v$j...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> of news.admin.misc,
> call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) doodled:

>> I'm not talking about creating any red tape. There is not really

>> anyone to administer it anyway. I just think that the initiators of
>> the cancellation should write a one page summary of their motivation
>> to attempt record precisely *what* precedent has been set. I agree
>> that no such statement can be unambiguous, but I don't see how the
>> absence of *any* explanation is to be preferred.

>My motivation was simply to try and stop over 7Mb of duplicate postings
>hitting people's modems. I've already posted the maths, and I'll simply
>state that the contents had nothing to do with the cancellation. If
>he'd cross-posted it properly then he could have been flamed for
>innapropriate posting, but that would be all.

>Some interesting things have come out of this though: . . .

>4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
> the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
> on things going to postmaster their doing anything..

Damn! I tried that route when I found the cross-posting.

Daniel Reitman

"This is not a case for music lovers. It involves not the dulcet sounds one
expects from concert grand pianos, but the discordant notes from a cacophany
for pianos extending back more than a century." Grotrian, Helfferich, Schulz,
Th. Steinweg Nachf. v. Steinway & Sons, 523 F.2d 1331, 1333 (2d Cir. 1975)
(trademark action).

[Christopher Samuel]

In article <2hjc6v$j...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> of news.admin.misc,
call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) doodled:

> I'm not talking about creating any red tape. There is not really

> anyone to administer it anyway. I just think that the initiators of
> the cancellation should write a one page summary of their motivation
> to attempt record precisely *what* precedent has been set. I agree
> that no such statement can be unambiguous, but I don't see how the
> absence of *any* explanation is to be preferred.

My motivation was simply to try and stop over 7Mb of duplicate postings

hitting people's modems. I've already posted the maths, and I'll simply
state that the contents had nothing to do with the cancellation. If
he'd cross-posted it properly then he could have been flamed for
innapropriate posting, but that would be all.

Some interesting things have come out of this though:

1) People misunderstood why I posted the logs.

It was not out of any sense of "hey guys, look what I've done",
it was for those sites who have NTA's too paranoid to act on the
cancels..

2) I've been flamed for doing it by a few people.
3) I've been thanked for doing it by a few people (mainly local UUCP).

4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
on things going to postmaster their doing anything..

Chris

[L. Todd Masco]

In article <daniCJv...@netcom.com> da...@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Yes, this case is a precedent -- but it doesn't seem like a bad
>precedent. Until abuses start turning up with some frequency, there's
>not much point in creating red tape in hopes of preventing them.

Is it? I recall this sort of thing happening once in a while. The
BIFF episodes were cancelled net-wide, for example. And those were
clearly on purpose.
--
Todd Masco | "I repeat myself when I'm under stress. I
cac...@clinton.com, DoD #269 | repeat myself when I'm under stress. I re-
SysAdmin, Clinton Group, Inc. | peat myself when I'm under stress. I repe.."

[Tim Ramsey]

[ note followups ]

call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:

>Is there a policy statement on this kind of cancellation? I agree
>that in this instance it was certainly justified for reasons of
>excessive resource use. But at the same time, it *looks* like the
>suppression of a particular religious viewpoint. I think that
>it is important to outline the precise reasons for making the
>cancellation in order to make sure this case is not a precedent
>for official cancellations on less clear-cut grounds.

Nobody is suppressing anything. If the original poster had posted his
comments to one or a few appropriate groups then (most) nobody would have
raised an eyebrow. Assuming he still has posting priviliges, he is
welcome do so now (but I wager he's now in hundreds, if not thousands, of
killfiles). What he did, though, goes far beyond expressing his
particular religious viewpoint. For one thing, it doesn't scale well:
what if everyone decides to express their particular religious viewpoint
in the same manner? IDOTNPredicted.

--
Tim Ramsey, t...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu Ob***icBait: Thanksgiving Turkey -- Yumm!
PGP2.3 public key available via keyserver, finger, or email.
Member of the League for Programming Freedom and the ACLU.
"You ACLU know-it-alls make me wretch." -- spi...@pegasus.rutgers.edu

[TED LOUIS GLENN]

In article <1994Jan19.1...@aber.ac.uk>,

Christopher Samuel <c...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:
>4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
> the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
> on things going to postmaster their doing anything..

I wonder if the person he reports to can be emailed. Anyways, our "friend"
Clarence is now starting on mailing lists (i.e sports psychology).
Followups to news.admin.misc.
--
Ted L. Glenn "Don't worry, be happy!" <--Ack! Pffffhhht!
HI! I'm a .sig disinfectant. Please remove all viruses from your .signature.
"tlglenn%cs.arizona.edu"@ARIZVMS.BITNET {noao,allegra,uunet}!arizona!tlglenn

[DoN. Nichols]

In article <1994Jan19...@spcvxb.spc.edu> te...@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.) writes:
>In article <CJuz4...@eecs.nwu.edu>, ptow...@eecs.nwu.edu (Patrick A. Townson) writes:
>> Either way, seems like a waste of time just to get rid of a message
>> dealing with Seventh Day Adventist stuff that would vanish on its
>> own anyway given a few days at most.
>
> The idea, as I see it, is to get rid of the article before the majority of
>users see it and start discussing it. Such discussions can go on for weeks
>(months, sometimes!) and occasionally overwhelm the normal traffic in a news-
>group.

Also, since it was a *separate* posting to each newsgroup, (and was
not a small article), it took up that space multiplied by the number of
newsgroups carried at the site, so it was chewing up a disproportinate
amount of disk space on each and every news spool. I am glad that it was
canceled from afar, to save me the trouble at my site. My disk space is
finite, and I pay connect time for my newsfeed. The more that got canceled
before they ever got to me, the happier I am.

At the same time, I'm glad that someone quoted the entire text in
*one* newsgroup where I could see it. Just to see what was being thrown at
the net.

--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | ...!uunet!ceilidh!dnichols
<dnic...@ceilidh.beartrack.com>
Donald Nichols (DoN.) | Voice (Days): (703) 704-2280 (Eves): (703) 938-4564
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[Timo Salmi]

In article <2hidl3$h...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
:excessive resource use. But at the same time, it *looks* like the

:suppression of a particular religious viewpoint. I think that

Disclaimer: I am not advocating the cancellation!

No, it does not look like a supression of a view, religious or
otherwise. It looks like (over?)reacting to blatantly excessive
repetitions all over the gamut of the newgroups. Had that been
*cross*posted to a few newsgroups it would have been largely
ignored. Which would the best reaction also under the current
circumstances. Leave the treatment to the admins of the originating
site.

All the best, Timo

..................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi Co-moderator of comp.archives.msdos.announce
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous FTP archives 128.214.87.1
Faculty of Accounting & Industrial Management; University of Vaasa
Internet: t...@uwasa.fi BBS +(358)-61-3170972; FIN-65101, Finland

[Willard Dawson]

c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:

>4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
> the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
> on things going to postmaster their doing anything..

SOA record where???

A little research conducted from my crl.com account (with times all
being PST):

Script started on Wed Jan 19 21:41:32 1994
warning: could not update utmp entry
$ whois cc.andrews.edu
No match for "CC.ANDREWS.EDU".

The InterNIC Registration Services Host ONLY contains Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.
$ whois andrews.edu
Andrews University (ANDREWS-DOM)
Computer Information Science Department
Berrien Springs, MI 49104-0360

Domain Name: ANDREWS.EDU

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Bidwell, Daniel R. (DRB16) BID...@ANDREWS.EDU
(616) 471-3425

Record last updated on 11-Sep-91.

Domain servers in listed order:

PETER.CS.ANDREWS.EDU 143.207.1.4
ANAGRAM.MCS.ANL.GOV 140.221.10.1

The InterNIC Registration Services Host ONLY contains Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.
$ telnet cc.andrews.edu 25
cc.andrews.edu: No address associated with name
$ telnet CC.ANDREWS.EDU
CC.ANDREWS.EDU: No address associated with name
$ nslookup
Default Server: crl.com
Address: 165.113.1.12

> CC.ANDREWS.EDU
Server: crl.com
Address: 165.113.1.12

*** No address information is available for CC.ANDREWS.EDU
> set type=mx
> CC.ANDREWS.EDU
Server: crl.com
Address: 165.113.1.12

CC.ANDREWS.EDU preference = 0, mail exchanger = orion.cc.andrews.edu
orion.cc.andrews.edu inet address = 143.207.5.2
> ^D $
$ telnet orion.cc.andrews.edu 25
Trying 143.207.5.2...
Connected to orion.cc.andrews.edu.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 orion.cc.andrews.edu Sendmail 4.1/SMI-4.1 ready at Thu, 20 Jan 94 00:43:26 EST
vrfy postmaster
250 Lorena Bidwell <"|/usr/local/bin/filter lorena">
expn postmaster
250 Lorena Bidwell <"|/usr/local/bin/filter lorena">
vrfy lorena
250 Lorena Bidwell <"|/usr/local/bin/filter lorena">
quit
221 orion.cc.andrews.edu closing connection
Connection closed by foreign host.
$ ^D
script done on Wed Jan 19 21:43:39 1994

[John William Chambless]

In article <2hjc6v$j...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu>,
Paul Callahan <call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> wrote:

>anyone to administer it anyway. I just think that the initiators of
>the cancellation should write a one page summary of their motivation
>to attempt record precisely *what* precedent has been set. I agree
>

I agree with you there, if only because it's a bit of net.history.
I think the actions of Chris and others are an example of how this
cooperative effort/anarchy/experiment in chaos called the Usenet
can work at its best.

>While I disagree with both the content of the posting and the method
>of dissemination, and consider the freeing of disk space and bandwidth

Personally, I find the content of the message to be irrelevant. I may
agree with some percentage of what Clarence has to say, but I find the
way he distributed it to be reprehensible. Costing other people
"hundreds, if not thousands of dollars" is never justified.

> to be a good thing, I find the gloating over its cancellation to be
>distasteful insofar as it stems from disagreement with the content
>of the article rather than the practical benefit of freed resources.

Hmmm....that's not the impression _I_ got, but I donno.
It wouldn't have mattered to me if it was his mom's apple pie recipe,
or an obfuscated C winner...mega-net posts like that should get
the poster the electric chair!

--
* Billy Chambless University of Southern Mississippi
* "If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge." Henry Spencer
* I'm not an opinionated jerk, but I play one on the Net.

[David Wright]

In article <CJuz4...@eecs.nwu.edu> ptow...@eecs.nwu.edu (Patrick A. Townson) writes:
#In article <1994Jan18.1...@aber.ac.uk> c...@aber.ac.uk
#(Christopher Samuel) writes:
#(There then followed hundreds of lines of cancellations) ...
#
#My goodness! Did you type in all those control/cancel messages by
#hand over and over? Was it really worth the bother?

Yes it was worth the bother, especially as he wrote a script to do it,
as you probably know from his other messages.

In all the argument about what was done and why, nobody seems to have
thanked Christopher for taking the trouble to tidy up the junk.

So - Thanks.

P.S. if anyone wants to see the original message, there's a copy in
comp.databases.ms-access, along with a reply suggesting that upgrading
to version 1.1 might solve the problem. I guess they don't have that
group at aber.

Regards,
David Wright BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, Essex CM17 9NA, UK
d...@bnr.co.uk <or> d...@bnr.ca <or> uunet!stl!dww <or> D.W.Wright.EG10@bnr

[Bob Sloane]

In article <wdawson....@willard.atl.ga.us>,
wda...@willard.atl.ga.us (Willard Dawson) writes:
> SOA record where???

nslookup /type=soa cc.andrews.edu

Server: kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Address: 129.237.32.1

CC.ANDREWS.EDU
origin = orion.cc.andrews.edu
mail addr = clarence.orion.cc.andrews.edu
serial = 2925687484
refresh = 3600 (1 hour)
retry = 360 (6 mins)
expire = 604800 (7 days)
minimum ttl = 7200 (2 hours)
--
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: slo...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, slo...@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444

[Rich Salz]

In <2hhhum$h...@bigboote.wpi.edu> mega...@obsidian.WPI.EDU (MegaZone) writes:
>Mail bombing someone accomplishes very little ...
>All it can do is tie up the spool for all the users.

You are assuming that all mail is stored in a common spool directory.
On many systems mail is stored in the user's home directory.
/r$

[Paul Callahan]

cham...@whale.st.usm.edu (John William Chambless) writes:

[I wrote:]

>> to be a good thing, I find the gloating over its cancellation to be
>>distasteful insofar as it stems from disagreement with the content
>>of the article rather than the practical benefit of freed resources.

>Hmmm....that's not the impression _I_ got, but I donno.
>It wouldn't have mattered to me if it was his mom's apple pie recipe,
>or an obfuscated C winner...mega-net posts like that should get
>the poster the electric chair!

The phrase "insofar as" simply means "to the extent that". So, I am
not stating an impression that such gloating occurred, but that IF it
occurred, I find it distasteful. It's hard to decipher the attitudes
behind postings, so I am not going to attempt to argue one way or the
other about whether it actually occurred. Actually, if you look at
my last response in this thread, it may seem as if I am engaging in such
gloating myself. That really isn't my intent so much as to give my
impression of the mindset of a zealot, which I find quite interesting.

Here's an overdramatic analogy, but one which may illustrate my concerns.
Suppose a person takes out a gun and begins firing on a crowd. Seeing
this from a window, another citizen takes out a gun and fires on the
attacker, killing him, but also stopping the attack. It seems to me that
there are two responses: One is relief that people's lives were saved.
The other--in my view--is abstract remorse at the notion that it is sometimes
necessary to take a human life to save other lives (note that this is not the
same as sympathy for the killer). The point is that both acts carry
great ethical significance, though only one of them would be universally
acknowledged as ethically wrong.

Now, obviously, the global cancellation of a posting is not an act of
nearly so great significance as the taking of a human life. However,
I do feel it is an act of greater significance than was acknowledged.
I feel that when such actions prove necessary, it is a time for sober
reflection and reevaluation of what is and is not appropriate action to
take in the maintenance of a functioning net. Usenet has grown into a
huge system for information exchange without any well-defined ethical
and philosophical basis. As this incidence shows, it is a system
without law, but *with* law enforcement. I think that this is going
to lead to some trouble in the future.

The old idea (that I once believed years ago) was "Posting is a
privilege, not a right." effectively allowing just about any kind of
control. However, it is now clear that it is an unprecedented means
for the rapid global dissemination of information. Thus, it is not
just a pastime for bored undergrads, but a means of empowerment. It
is quite important to insure that certain ideas are not prejudicially
suppressed. While I agree that this incident was not a case of the
suppression of ideas, I feel that it is of utmost importance that the
record show this fact, so that it is not cited as a precedent in
later attempts at suppression.

Conversation with a friend locally led to an interesting issue, that I
would like to put forward for discussion: Is the purpose of cancelling
the Thomas purely to save physical resources (disk, bandwidth) OR is
it to reduce the level of inappropriate discussion on unmoderated
newsgroups? I personally would argue that it is ONLY the first, as
the second purpose is so ill-defined as to be open to great abuse.
(I accept the notion of moderated newsgroups, because they are
under well-defined editorial control.) While no one has stated that
it is good to suppress the view of the Thomas posting, several have
suggested that it is good to remove it from groups in which
commonsense suggests it does not belong. I think this is a dangerous
idea. Personally, I would accept that it can be cited as a side-benefit
of such an action, but not as an objective.
--
"Now, many of the ex KGB members are here looking for jobs. Those netters who
are concerned with the scientific integrity of the NET will find no better
solution than to employ some of these ex KGB members for policing the NET."
-- Alexander Abian === Paul Callahan (call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu) ===

[Eddie Saxe]

In news.admin.misc,news.groups,alt.config, wda...@willard.atl.ga.us (Willard Dawson) writes:
>c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
>
>>4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
>> the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
>> on things going to postmaster their doing anything..
>
>SOA record where???

[rest of a very informative message deleted]

I think there was a little confusion using nslookup:

:
:(angel:~)nslookup
:> set type=soa
:> cc.andrews.edu
:Name Server: mcenroe.cs.unc.edu
:Address: 152.2.128.184
:
:cc.andrews.edu
: origin = orion.cc.andrews.edu
: mail addr = clarence.orion.cc.andrews.edu
^^^^^^^^ I think this is what created the confusion.
: serial = 2925687484

: refresh = 3600 (1 hour)
: retry = 360 (6 mins)
: expire = 604800 (7 days)
: minimum ttl = 7200 (2 hours)

:>

Eddie
--
TIRED WIRED
----- -----
Kibo numbers p-adics

[Gary Heston]

In article <1994Jan19.1...@aber.ac.uk> c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
[ ... ]

>4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
> the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
> on things going to postmaster their doing anything..

In that case, I find it hard to believe that he'd actually do
this. The prospect of a forgery seems more and more likely.

After all, it's not like he's been observed doing this before; he'd
have had access before becoming the contact point (I hope!), and
would have been spouting similar things in the past...

--
Gary Heston SCI Systems, Inc. ga...@sci34hub.sci.com site admin
The Chairman of the Board and the CFO speak for SCI. I'm neither.
"Quit while you're ahead. All the best gamblers do." Baltasar Gracian

[Paul Callahan]

I'm reposting text I wrote in another thread, because it was at the end
of a longer article and might be ignored by otherwise interested readers.
I've altered it slightly from the original:

Conversation with a friend locally led to an interesting issue, that I
would like to put forward for discussion: Is the purpose of cancelling

the Thomas posting purely to save physical resources (disk, bandwidth)

OR is it to reduce the level of inappropriate discussion on
unmoderated newsgroups?

I personally would argue that ONLY the first objective is valid, as
the second is so ill-defined as to be open to great abuse. (I accept

the notion of moderated newsgroups, because they are under
well-defined editorial control.) While no one has stated that it is

good to suppress the VIEW of the Thomas posting, several have

suggested that it is good to remove it from groups in which
commonsense suggests it does not belong. I think this is a dangerous

idea. Personally, I think this can be cited as an incidental benefit

of such an action, but not as an objective.

N.B.: Thus, I specifically reject the position that "The main resource
saved was the readers' time." Such a notion opens up the floodgates
to all manner of censorship.

The old idea (that I once believed years ago) was "Posting is a
privilege, not a right." effectively allowing just about any kind of
control. However, it is now clear that it is an unprecedented means
for the rapid global dissemination of information. Thus, it is not
just a pastime for bored undergrads, but a means of empowerment. It
is quite important to insure that certain ideas are not prejudicially

suppressed. While I agree that the Thomas Cancellation was not a case

of the suppression of ideas, I feel that it is of utmost importance
that the record show this fact, so that it is not cited as a precedent
in later attempts at suppression.

What do other people think?

[Joel Plutchak]

In article <2hmgr9$3...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
>The old idea (that I once believed years ago) was "Posting is a
>privilege, not a right." effectively allowing just about any kind of
>control. However, it is now clear that it is an unprecedented means
>for the rapid global dissemination of information. Thus, it is not

>just a pastime for bored undergrads, but a means of empowerment...

...and therefore no longer a privilege, but a right? Unfortunately,
there are too many people around these days who justify anything simply
because it is viewed as "empowering." That sounds a lot like the old
idea "the end justifies the means."
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
"Dreamed I was an Eskimo/Frozen wind began to blow,
Under my boots and around my toes/Frost that bit the ground below"
- Frank Zappa, "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow", _Apostrophe'_

[Neil Rickert]

In article <2hmgr9$3...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:

> While no one has stated that it is
>good to suppress the VIEW of the Thomas posting, several have
>suggested that it is good to remove it from groups in which
>commonsense suggests it does not belong. I think this is a dangerous
>idea. Personally, I think this can be cited as an incidental benefit
>of such an action, but not as an objective.

>...

>What do other people think?

I think that if he (or she) had posted it once to a single group, or
even cross posted it to several groups, there would have been no attempt
to cancel the article, even if the groups selected were inappropriate.
His (or her) freedom of expression would have been preserved, and our
newspools would not have filled up with zillions of articles commenting
on the posting.

[Edmund Schweppe]

In article <125br...@uunet.uu.net>, rs...@uunet.uu.net (Rich Salz) writes:

>I am sure that other people will also do this. I would like to suggest
>that, to avoid flooding the net with duplicate cancels, when cancelling a
>"robo-poster" like the one mentioned above, take the original Message-ID,
>and prefix with the string "cancel-". For example, the mesage cancelling
>this article would have
> Message-ID: <cancel-1...@uunet.uu.net>

Well, it's a good idea, but I see one little problem ... if this turns
into Usenet Standard Practice, some clever "robo-poster" will post a set
of blocking messages at the same time he posts his robocrap; i.e., if
<12...@foo.bar.com> is robocrap directed at group A, then he posts
<cancel...@foo.bar.com> to misc.test at the same time (with a mail
filter on his mailbox to forward any replies to /dev/null).

I'm curious ... just how many different people sent out cancels for Mr.
Thomas' "global alert"? If there were only one or two sites sending them
out, perhaps the duplicate cancels problem isn't that serious.

--
==========================================================================
| Edmund Schweppe - schw...@bumetb.bu.edu, schw...@acs.bu.edu |
| All standard disclaimers (also datclaimers and deotherclaimers) apply. |
==========================================================================

[Paul Callahan]

ric...@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert) writes:

>I think that if he (or she) had posted it once to a single group, or
>even cross posted it to several groups, there would have been no attempt
>to cancel the article, even if the groups selected were inappropriate.

I agree with this. But this is why I disagree with the statement made
by several people that "The main resource saved was the readers'
time." My point is that while saving people the trouble of reading
inappropriate material is a seemingly worthy goal, no one is
authorized OR SHOULD BE AUTHORIZED to do so. Hence, I think it is
essential that it be made clear that the purpose of this cancellation
was to conserved limited physical resources, and nothing else. This
brings up another issue, which is whether it might not have been more
proper to use local expiration and refusal to propagate rather than
global cancellation as the means of eliminating this posting.

[Paul Callahan]

plut...@lager.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak) writes:

>In article <2hmgr9$3...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
>>The old idea (that I once believed years ago) was "Posting is a
>>privilege, not a right." effectively allowing just about any kind of
>>control. However, it is now clear that it is an unprecedented means
>>for the rapid global dissemination of information. Thus, it is not
>>just a pastime for bored undergrads, but a means of empowerment...

> ...and therefore no longer a privilege, but a right?

Precisely.

As with all rights, a certain amount of regulation may apply. A
privilege is something that can be conferred and revoked at whim, and
unregulated whims may be applied systematically to repress particular
groups and ideas. In many fields, the Internet and even Usenet have
become the de facto means of global communication. Hence the old
notion "We payed for the equipment; we control it." has become
obsolete, because the right to property has come up against the right
to free expression. This has not happened yet in any extreme sense,
but it would be naive to think that the old "privilege, not a right"
dictum should be the model for the foreseeable future.

>Unfortunately,
>there are too many people around these days who justify anything simply
>because it is viewed as "empowering."

Or perhaps too many people who hold property rights as the only Good.

>That sounds a lot like the old
>idea "the end justifies the means."

Please elaborate. I don't follow.

[Jim Jewett]

In article <2hmgr9$3...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu>,
Paul Callahan <call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> wrote:

>Is the purpose of cancelling the Thomas posting purely to save
>physical resources (disk, bandwidth) OR is it to reduce the
>level of inappropriate discussion on unmoderated newsgroups?

>I personally would argue that ONLY the first objective is valid, as
>the second is so ill-defined as to be open to great abuse.

>N.B.: Thus, I specifically reject the position that "The main resource

>saved was the readers' time." Such a notion opens up the floodgates
>to all manner of censorship.

I think it is valid, but only statistically. If he had posted
it to comp.lang.lisp, sci.lang, and talk.politics.guns, he
would have gotten away with it. The problem is that he posted
it to more than 30 groups. (With crossposting, I'd have given
him 10 posts or 100 groups, whichever came first. I would be
more generous because I wouldn't see the same copy more than
once.)

It isn't simply that it was inappropriate for those groups, it
was that he clearly hadn't _considered_ whether or not it was
appropriate.

[From email from Paul Callahan]
[There might be a clear way to distinguish robo-postings
and disallow them on those grounds.]

If there is, then I would consider that a better test than
number of groups posted to. But I can't think of it,
except by sheer volume ...

-jJ _____
|\ /|
Take only memories. ji...@eecs.umich.edu | 0 |
Leave not even footprints. jew...@pitt.edu |/_\|

[Dani Zweig]

call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan):

>Is the purpose of cancelling the Thomas purely to save physical
>resources (disk, bandwidth) OR is it to reduce the level of
>inappropriate discussion on unmoderated newsgroups?

False dichotomy. The purpose is to save resources, but the most
important resource that's saved is *many* thousands of hours of
participants' time. Note that the original poster went to great
lengths to circumvent people's efforts to control what they read.

-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com

God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine -- Edmund Spenser

[Timo Salmi]

In article <2hmg1c...@rodan.UU.NET> rs...@uunet.uu.net (Rich Salz) writes:

But to continue in the same vein, then you are assuming that the
user does not know how to use email filters to reject or even bounce
the cramming.

Disclaimer: I am dead set against mail-box cramming.

[GOOCHIE]

In article <1994Jan19.1...@aber.ac.uk>,
Christopher Samuel <c...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:

>4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
> the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
> on things going to postmaster their doing anything..

I dunno about that having spoken to somone at their site from what
i can gather as of jan 1st Clarence
is no longer the admin of orion.cc.andrews.edu and he has annoyed
rather a few people there.

BTW approx 1000 mails have been recieved by clarence according to rumour.

regards

John

--
The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there. - PLATO

[Antti A Lahelma]

In <1994Jan20.1...@sci34hub.sci.com> ga...@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) writes:
>In that case, I find it hard to believe that he'd actually do
>this. The prospect of a forgery seems more and more likely.

>After all, it's not like he's been observed doing this before; he'd
>have had access before becoming the contact point (I hope!), and
>would have been spouting similar things in the past...

Well, I at least have observed him doing this before. Here are some examples
of the stuff he's been sending both to soc.religion.shamanism, and after I
rejected an article of his, to me personally as well:

> Date: 11 Nov 1993 15:12:53 -0500
> Message-Id: <2bu6c5$d...@orion.cc.andrews.edu>
> Lines: 122
> From: clar...@orion.cc.andrews.edu (Clarence L. Thomas IV)
> To: soc-religio...@uunet.UU.NET
> Subject: Satan Has Deeply Thought Out Strategies and Plans

> From: clar...@orion.cc.andrews.edu (Clarence L. Thomas IV)
> Message-Id: <931122064...@orion.cc.andrews.edu>
> Lines: 199
> Subject: Shamanism is Satanism (Devil Worship). Leave It Alone
> To: alah...@klaava.Helsinki.FI
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 01:44:16 -0500 (EST)

> From: tho...@redwood.cc.andrews.edu (Clarence L. Thomas IV)
> Message-Id: <940103215...@redwood.cc.andrews.edu>
> Lines: 433
> Subject: Warning: Jesus Is Soon To Finish His Work In The Most Holy Place
> To: alah...@klaava.Helsinki.FI
> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 16:50:04 EST

As you can see, he's been posting and mailing the stuff for two months at
least, and I'm not his only target. These are all *long*, hysterical rants,
with lots and lots of Bible-quotes and commentaries in between. I've also
spotted some of his stuff in soc.religion.christian, condemning the worship
of Virgin Mary among other things. I'm afraid he's probably just as nuts as
he appears to be, and a systems administrator too.
--
Antti Lahelma GNOTHI SEAUTON "Tragedy is the farce that involves our
alah...@cc.helsinki.fi TUNNE ITSESI sympathies: farce is the tragedy that
University of Helsinki KNOW THYSELF happens to outsiders." --Aldous Huxley

[Tony Kimball]

Paul Callahan (call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu) wrote:
: brings up another issue, which is whether it might not have been more

: proper to use local expiration and refusal to propagate rather than
: global cancellation as the means of eliminating this posting.

In my opinion, the appropriate place to stop this sort of thing
is at the source, not the destination. Future generations of news
posting software and NNTP servers could be equipped to recognize
such flagrant abuse, by detecting cross posts exceeding a set limit,
and by hashing all posts, rejecting any post which hashes to a value
which more than N posts have hashed to in the last M hours.
No mechanism is fail-safe, but if it is sufficiently difficult to
do the wrong thing, the number of people who actually do it will
be small enough not to matter. I agree that post-hoc censorship is
too prone to abuse. As is discussion of the distinction between
rights and privelidges :-)

-- Anthony L Kimball -- a...@think.com, a...@msc.edu, {uunet,harvard}!think!alk
"Claim of actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence is not ground
for federal habeas relief." - US Supreme Court, Jan 1993, deciding on the
case of an inmate sentenced to death, executed, May 1993. -- Prov 31:8-9

[Chris Cochems]

I concider myself to be the only acceptable censor of what I read.
Fortunately, kill files give me a way to impose my own censorship for
myself and Clarence won't be bothering me again. I also sent him a
rather strongly worded E-Mail (probably a waste of time, but it felt
good). I do not feel that any form of general censorship is appropriate.
--
My candle burns at both ends; | I fish therefore I am.
It will not last the night; | Chris Cochems
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-- | Hayward, CA USA
It gives a lovely light! -- Edna St. Vincent Millay | tu...@netcom.com

[A. Ferreira]

In article <2hmbkd$3...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
>From: call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan)
>Subject: Re: Global Alert For All: Jesus is Coming Soon
>Date: 20 Jan 1994 11:31:09 -0500

Personnally I have some problemns with people posting in inappropriate news
groups, but not so much that I would want those postings cancelled. However
it becomes a different story when someone also posts that same message in
more than a thousand news groups. I think that as most people I read more
than one group, about 25 in my case. If someone wants to post something
really "earth shattering" I can always post it post it in a few well read
news groups. Note that this is not something I would want to happen, merely
that everone could do this. If this happens I will most like think something
like "not appropriate here" and if I see it twice "damned crossposter", and
when I see it 24 times (yes we have one lokal newsgroup) "how to I get this
guy/gall of the net, lets start inudating him with replies, put a protest
in news.groups" (btw I just saw that this followup would be crossposted in
three groups, not good... I only want news groups.)
The bottomline is that anyone who posts the same message to more than 1% (to
draw I line somewhere) of the total number of news groups goes way beyond he
rights or privileges.
Alcindo
FERR...@EDTE.UTWENTE.NL (Alcindo Ferreira)
Faculty of Educational Technology, University of Twente

[The Leather Goddess]

jkf...@snarf.eecs.umich.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>Unfortunately, due to the cancels, I have not actually SEEN this post
>that has everyone so upset. Will someone please mail me a copy?

Sure thing. How many copies would you like?

--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand. Wolves converge on their prey in
lea...@phobos.actrix.gen.nz packs in order to get food. Human
s=walker,g=lesley,o=gcs, XV1000 beings, being more intelligent, do it
p=gcs,a=gcsmail,c=nz DoD#258 for entertainment. -- Rosemary McLeod

[Christopher Samuel]

In article <2hmq56$4...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> of news.admin.misc,
call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) doodled:

> Hence, I think it is essential that it be made clear that the purpose
> of this cancellation was to conserved limited physical resources, and
> nothing else.

Hmm.. I think that I've said enough times that the only reason I did
the mass-cancel was to try and get it before people started paying phone
bills for 7Mb of the *same* message. If it had been cross-posted
properly then he would have got a good flaming, but no cancels.

> This brings up another issue, which is whether it might not have been
> more proper to use local expiration and refusal to propagate rather than
> global cancellation as the means of eliminating this posting.

That wouldn't have helped leaf UUCP and SLIP sites with dial-up time..

Time to lay this matter to rest ?
Chris
--
Christopher Samuel, Computer Unit, U.W Aberystwyth, Aberystwyth, WALES
E-mail: c...@aber.ac.uk PGP key available via finger ICBM: 52.24'N, 4.4'W
NewModelArmyTheLevellersTheSistersOfMercyNineInchNailsTheFieldsOfTheNephilim
AnhrefnDeadKennedysTheClashLardTheCultBahausDreadZepplinMetallicaJelloBiafra

[Paul Callahan]

c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:

>Time to lay this matter to rest ?

I don't see why. This sort of thing is going to happen again, and it
seems worthwhile to discuss.

[Christopher Samuel]

In article <1994Jan20.1...@sci34hub.sci.com> of news.admin.misc,
ga...@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) doodled:

> In article <1994Jan19.1...@aber.ac.uk>
> c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
> [ ... ]
> >4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
> > the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
> > on things going to postmaster their doing anything..
>
> In that case, I find it hard to believe that he'd actually do
> this. The prospect of a forgery seems more and more likely.

As Laura Burchard posted in <2hkt0a$l...@access.digex.net>:

Laura> Clarence Thomas is apparently no longer the admin for
Laura> orion.cc.andrew.edu, and they are working on disciplinary measures.
Laura> Things are slowed down by the awful weather however.

I *hope* they wouldn't even think about doing something like that if it
there was any chance it was forged.

> After all, it's not like he's been observed doing this before; he'd
> have had access before becoming the contact point (I hope!), and
> would have been spouting similar things in the past...

/* Note that this is what I've read, and could be just rumour :-) */

He has (allegedly) done stuff like this before, apparently posting to
soc.religion.shamanism until the moderator refused to post any more of
his stuff, he then changed to e-mailing the posters individually..

Someone at Andrews Uni mailed me saying that a friend of theirs looked
at the size of Clarence's mailbox spool file and it was reported to be
over 80 megs.

[Neil Readwin]

call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
|> Hence the old notion "We payed for the equipment; we control it." has
|> become obsolete, because the right to property has come up against the
|> right to free expression.

You have no right to free expression using equipment paid for by my
employers. None. Not even a little bit.
--
Phone: +44 71 815 5283 E-mail: nrea...@micrognosis.co.uk
Anything is a cause for sorrow that my mind or body has made

[Dave Ratcliffe]

In article <940118.143610.4...@nbi.com>, le...@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) writes:
- c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
-
- > This is the last part - hit 'n' now to skip it.
-
- [list deleted]
-
- I found these logs so informative and educational, I think I'll email a
- copy to Mr. Clarence L. Thomas IV. After all, if *I* found them so
- entertaining, he most assuredly will too.
-
- Maybe I'd better email them twice, just to make sure he gets them.

Bet they bounce.

Both times.

Big time.

--
vogon1!frackit!da...@cse.psu.edu | "Why would I want to be taken
- Dave Ratcliffe - Data Factory Svcs. | seriously? "
- Harrisburg, Pa - | Dave Hayes

[Chris Linstruth]

wda...@willard.atl.ga.us (Willard Dawson) writes:
>$ telnet orion.cc.andrews.edu 25
>Trying 143.207.5.2...
>Connected to orion.cc.andrews.edu.
>Escape character is '^]'.
>220 orion.cc.andrews.edu Sendmail 4.1/SMI-4.1 ready at Thu, 20 Jan 94 00:43:26 EST
>vrfy postmaster
>250 Lorena Bidwell <"|/usr/local/bin/filter lorena">
>expn postmaster
>250 Lorena Bidwell <"|/usr/local/bin/filter lorena">
>vrfy lorena
>250 Lorena Bidwell <"|/usr/local/bin/filter lorena">
>quit
>221 orion.cc.andrews.edu closing connection
>Connection closed by foreign host.

Hmm. Lorena, I think you know what to do with Clarence. (Anyone named
Lorena should.) Seems fitting enough.

--
Chris Linstruth | Genuine Computing Resources | Public Access Internet
c...@gcr.com | 703-551-0095 / 703-878-4358 | telnet, ftp, IRC, gopher
uunet!ukelele!cjl | 14.4/96/24/12 N81 | Usenet, mail, and more

[Tim Ramsey]

[ Note followups ]

sa...@cs.unc.edu (Eddie Saxe) writes:

>I think there was a little confusion using nslookup:

>:cc.andrews.edu

>: origin = orion.cc.andrews.edu
>: mail addr = clarence.orion.cc.andrews.edu
> ^^^^^^^^ I think this is what created the confusion.

Note that this has changed:

softtail (90)% nslookup
Default Server: matt.ksu.edu
Address: 129.130.12.2

> set q=soa
> cc.andrews.edu.
Server: matt.ksu.edu
Address: 129.130.12.2

Non-authoritative answer:
cc.andrews.edu nameserver = orion.cc.andrews.edu
cc.andrews.edu nameserver = anagram.mcs.anl.gov
cc.andrews.edu origin = orion.cc.andrews.edu
mail addr = postmaster.orion.cc.andrews.edu
serial=-479278511, refresh=3600, retry=360, expire=604800, min=7200

220 orion.cc.andrews.edu Sendmail 4.1/SMI-4.1 ready at Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:00:20 EST

expn postmaster
250 Lorena Bidwell <"|/usr/local/bin/filter lorena">

--
Tim Ramsey, t...@ksu.ksu.edu
PGP2.3 public key available via keyserver, finger, or email.
Member of the League for Programming Freedom and the ACLU.
"You ACLU know-it-alls make me wretch." -- spi...@pegasus.rutgers.edu

[Paul Callahan]

nrea...@micrognosis.co.uk (Neil Readwin) writes:

>You have no right to free expression using equipment paid for by my
>employers. None. Not even a little bit.

It's easy for you to make this statement. But I guarantee that this
seemingly simple argument would not hold water, if, for example, a
group of companies in the US (I realize your domain is .uk) were
conspiring to refuse to propagate postings from a specific minority
group. I can certainly imagine someone initiating a lawsuit on these
grounds, though I don't know how it would turn out. For a more
concrete example, telephone companies cannot refuse to install lines
for blacks on the theory that "we paid for the equipment; we can do
what we like with it."

These are issues that have to be resolved. Your employers have
undeniable property rights, but it's these rights do not override all
other concerns. In fact, I agree that private companies should be
allowed complete discretion in what they choose to do with their
communications lines, but I also think that those who reserve the
right to reject postings arbitrarily should not be allowed to
participate in Usenet. The smugness of the dictum "posting is a
privilege, not a right" stems only from the fact that it has not yet
been tested. Give it a few years, and you'll see how naive it really is.

[Willie Smith]

c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher Samuel) writes:
>3) I've been thanked for doing it by a few people (mainly local UUCP).

Thanks from here too!

>4) Clarence L Thomas IV, who posted the original messages, is actually
> the contact listed in the SOA record for cc.andrews.edu, so don't bet
> on things going to postmaster their doing anything..

Yes, but he's _not_ postm...@andrews.edu, which is where I sent my
complaint. On the other tentacle, the lack of response from anyone at
andrews.edu is awfully suspicious, either they condone his actions or
he's intercepting all the complaints and they have no idea what he's
done. Has _anyone_ heard _anything_ from Clarence or his superiors
since this thing happened?

--
Willie Smith wp...@pictel.com N1...@amsat.org
Some people you don't have to satirize, you just quote em - Tom Paxton

[Neil Readwin]

call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
|> >You have no right to free expression using equipment paid for by my
|> >employers. None. Not even a little bit.
|>
|> It's easy for you to make this statement. But I guarantee that this
|> seemingly simple argument would not hold water, if, for example, a
|> group of companies in the US (I realize your domain is .uk) were
|> conspiring to refuse to propagate postings from a specific minority
|> group.

Are you suggesting that if, when in a few weeks I configure another news
server in one of our US offices, I tell our feed to put /zuma in our sys
file on the grounds that I don't want to carry megabytes of rubbish about
massacred Armenians then the Argic thing would have grounds to sue? Does
it make a difference if that server is a leaf node?

|> [...] but I also think that those who reserve the right to reject postings

|> arbitrarily should not be allowed to participate in Usenet.

I disagree :-) Neil.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Callahan <call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> writes:
Paul> [...] Hence the old
Paul> notion "We payed for the equipment; we control it." has become
Paul> obsolete, because the right to property has come up against the right
Paul> to free expression. [...]

I strongly disagree. As I've seen before:

"Freedom of the Press doesn't mean everyone gets a Free Press."

Usenet since its inception [~1980] has been a (mostly :-) cooperative
anarchy. This means that we're theoretically a bunch of adults
speaking in turn, and agreeing to do so informally.

Usenet is not a right. Usenet is a loosely held *agreement*. If you
violate the agreement, those that uphold the agreement can take action
against you, such as with the CTIV postings.

If *you* wanna blurt your message on a street corner, go do it. But
on Usenet, we have some rules about charter. Sure, there are minor
offenses (followups to followups that stray off charter), but CTIV
blasted his way right over the top, and deserved to get hit in the
knees for gross misintent.

Usenet is not a right, or a privilege, but an agreement among those
that maintain it, promote it, and yes, even pay for it.

We now return you to 60MB/day of drivel... :-)

Just another old-time Usenetter (since 1980 when it began),

--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <mer...@ora.com> Snail/FAX: (Call) aka: <mer...@teleport.com>
Phrase: "Welcome to Portland, Oregon ... home of the California Raisins!"

[John Stanley]

In article <2hoqu4$5...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu>,

Paul Callahan <call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> wrote:
>nrea...@micrognosis.co.uk (Neil Readwin) writes:
>>You have no right to free expression using equipment paid for by my
>>employers. None. Not even a little bit.
>
>It's easy for you to make this statement.

The truth is sometimes easy.

>But I guarantee that this
>seemingly simple argument would not hold water, if, for example, a
>group of companies in the US (I realize your domain is .uk) were
>conspiring to refuse to propagate postings from a specific minority
>group.

You would first have to prove that the companies knew that they were
minorities. This is USENET.

>I can certainly imagine someone initiating a lawsuit on these
>grounds, though I don't know how it would turn out.

People initiate lawsuits on all sorts of grounds. That they can initiate
them is hardly proof that the alleged action is illegal.

>communications lines, but I also think that those who reserve the
>right to reject postings arbitrarily should not be allowed to
>participate in Usenet.

Who will you select to enforce this law?

[John Stanley]

In article <tunaCJy...@netcom.com>, Chris Cochems <tu...@netcom.com> wrote:
>I concider myself to be the only acceptable censor of what I read.

In this context, then, I assume that you would not be unhappy if
someone posted several 8 Mb articles which clogged your news server so
that you didn't get any new news until those expired? You are, after
all, the only acceptable censor for what you read.

>Fortunately, kill files give me a way to impose my own censorship for
>myself and Clarence won't be bothering me again.

This instance of cancellation was not one of censorship but of managing
a limited resource so that it kept working. Kill files are not a
measure for managing limited news-spool space.

[Edsel Adap]

OK. I am one of the Sys Admins for the andrews.edu domain and am going
to clarify a few things.

First of all, the lack of replies was due to the fact that the school
was closed for a few days because of very bad weather.
2nd, it is very difficult to send a reply to thousands of messages
especially when the matter has not been completely settled by the proper
authorities although they are working on it.

3rd. Disciplinary measures are being taken.

4th. Clarence thomas is no longer the contact or the sys admin of
cc.andrews.edu. This changed happened towards the end of 1993 (I
believe Jan 1 1994).

5. We do not condone his actions. In fact, strict disciplinary
measures are being done.

6. He's not intercepting any mail. We have been receiving all of the
mail sent to postmaster, root, hostmaster, etc...

--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Edsel Adap | System Administrator/Technical Support
| Computer Science / Mathematics Major | Computer Science Department
| Andrews University | Andrews University
| |
| ad...@andrews.edu | sup...@andrews.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Edsel Adap Computer Science / Mathematics Major
ad...@andrews.edu Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI

The Briggs/Chase Law of Program Development:

[Martin Schafer]

In article <2hmrkv$4...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:

>plut...@lager.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak) writes:
>
>
>As with all rights, a certain amount of regulation may apply. A
>privilege is something that can be conferred and revoked at whim, and
>unregulated whims may be applied systematically to repress particular
>groups and ideas. In many fields, the Internet and even Usenet have
>become the de facto means of global communication. Hence the old
>notion "We payed for the equipment; we control it." has become
>obsolete, because the right to property has come up against the right
>to free expression. This has not happened yet in any extreme sense,
>but it would be naive to think that the old "privilege, not a right"
>dictum should be the model for the foreseeable future.
>

I don't entirely agree that property rights are in conflict with free
speech rights here. What people have paid for, and have control over,
and should have control over, is their systems. The net is made up of
parts that are individually owned, but it is greater than the sum of
its parts. The public space, which is created by the interactions among
many individually owned and controlled systems is the area in which such
concepts as a "right to free expression" operate. All rights tend to
have some limits that are established in a society through laws, precedent
and common sense. The first is not really relevant on the net, since
there is no coercion, only social pressure. Hyde park's soapbox speakers
are an analogy of what normally goes on on the net. If someone showed up
there with enough amplification to be heard for miles, he would be
stopped, regardless of what he was saying. Similarly this persons
malicious abuse of people's resources was stopped. What constitutes
a sufficient abuse to warrant forged cancelling is probably not
definable. If Serdar multiplied his postings by 10 would it? If by
100? How about a 1000? I think there is some level. Actually since
he is a continuing problem, rather than a single explosion, varios
techniques suggested here for dropping him on the floor would (and will)
probably be used, rather than cancellation.

But I digress, I think that key variables, in addition to shear volume of
material, are the signal to noise ratio, and the availablility of other,
less disruptive means of accomplishing the same thing. If I started
posting 10 meg a day to soc.motss of random C code I think that someone
would stop me before very long.

[The Leather Goddess]

tu...@netcom.com (Chris Cochems) writes:
>I concider myself to be the only acceptable censor of what I read.
>Fortunately, kill files give me a way to impose my own censorship for
>myself and Clarence won't be bothering me again. I also sent him a
>rather strongly worded E-Mail (probably a waste of time, but it felt
>good). I do not feel that any form of general censorship is appropriate.

I composed a nice non-threatening mail to postmaster at his site,
requesting that he/she consider doing something about this guy, and
mailed it. Then I saw a very realistic cancel, and thought it had been
issued by Clarence himself, so I thought he had got the message, and
removed that piece of mail from the spool directory before it was sent
out...

[Paul Callahan]

mer...@ora.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

>Usenet is not a right, or a privilege, but an agreement among those
>that maintain it, promote it, and yes, even pay for it.

This is a reasonable view, and correctly describes Usenet as it has
existed since its inception, but I'm not absolutely certain that this
model scales up.

[Matt Hucke]

a...@gandalf.think.com (Tony Kimball) writes:

>Future generations of news
>posting software and NNTP servers could be equipped to recognize
>such flagrant abuse, by detecting cross posts exceeding a set limit,
>and by hashing all posts, rejecting any post which hashes to a value
>which more than N posts have hashed to in the last M hours.

Good idea... but add a feature to take care of another huge problem:
automatically reject any posting titled "MAKE.MONEY.FAST", possibly
printing appropriate warning messages...
--
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" (John Belushi)
GEEK CODES: GCS d? -p+ c+++ l+ u+ e+ m+ s+/+ !n h+ f- g+ w+ t+(++) r(+) y+*
hu...@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu * TEAM OS/2

[Eric Huppertz]

In article <1994Jan19...@spcvxb.spc.edu> te...@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.) writes:
>In article <CJuz4...@eecs.nwu.edu>, ptow...@eecs.nwu.edu (Patrick A. Townson) writes:
>> Either way, seems like a waste of time just to get rid of a message
>> dealing with Seventh Day Adventist stuff that would vanish on its
>> own anyway given a few days at most.
>
> The idea, as I see it, is to get rid of the article before the majority of
>users see it and start discussing it. Such discussions can go on for weeks
>(months, sometimes!) and occasionally overwhelm the normal traffic in a news-
>group.

Oh, you mean like the discussion we're taking part in now? :-)

Take a look at it!

[1] Global Alert For All: Jesus is Coming Soon
[2] Global Alert For All: Jesus is Coming S
[3] [LONG] Part 1 of the logs for the cancel of "Global Alert For All: Jesus
[4] [LONG] Part 2 of the logs for the cancel of "Global Alert For All: Jesus
[5] Global Alert For All: Dickwad is Posting Soon
[6] Discussion Topic: Significance of the Thomas Cancellation
[7] Has there been any response from andrews.edu??

( )+-( )+-( )+-(1)--(1)+-(1)
| | | |-(1)+-(1)
| | | | \-(1)--(1)
| | | |-(1)
| | | \-(1)
| | \-(1)
| |-( )--(1)+-(1)+-(3)--(4)--(4)+-(4)--(4)
| | | | \-[4]
| | | \-(1)+-(1)
| | | \-(1)
| | |-(1)+-( )--(1)--(1)
| | | \-(1)
| | \-(1)+-(1)+-(1)+-(1)+-(1)
| | | | | |-(1)--(5)
| | | | | |-(1)+-(1)
| | | | | | |-(1)--(1)
| | | | | | |-(1)
| | | | | | \-(1)
| | | | | |-(1)--(1)
| | | | | \-(7)--[7]
| | | | \-(1)--(1)--(6)+-(6)--(6)+-(6)--(6)+-(6)
| | | | | | \-(6)
| | | | | \-(6)
| | | | |-(6)--(6)--(6)--(6)
| | | | \-( )--(6)--(6)
| | | \-(1)
| | |-(1)--(1)
| | |-(1)
| | \-(1)
| |-(1)+-(2)
| | |-(1)
| | \-(1)--( )--(1)
| \-(1)
|-(1)+-(1)--(1)
| |-(1)--(1)
| \-(2)
\-(1)+-(1)--(1)+-(1)
| \-(1)
\-(1)
-( )--(1)
-(1)+-(1)
\-(1)--(1)

=8^]p

Cheers,

-E.

- ()() ()() () ()()() Eric J. Huppertz ejhu...@ilstu.edu
()()() () () =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
() () () () "Oh, that's just my brain. It's always
()() () () ()()() falling out." --Stimpson J. Cat

[Mahboud Zabetian]

In article <1994Jan21....@aber.ac.uk>, c...@aber.ac.uk (Christopher
Samuel) wrote:

> Hmm.. I think that I've said enough times that the only reason I did
> the mass-cancel was to try and get it before people started paying phone
> bills for 7Mb of the *same* message. If it had been cross-posted
> properly then he would have got a good flaming, but no cancels.
>

As a small site administrator, I strongly agree that if cancelations are
done based on saving resources, time and money--for only those articles
that go above and beyond the norm, then those cancelations should be
welcome.

The Clarence Thomas post did not meet the "norm" in the following ways:

* It was posted to more than a hundred newsgroups -- If ANYONE thinks that
they have news that is soooo important, they should take buy a commercial
during the SuperBowl, World Cup or call CNN.

* It wasn't just crossposted, yet posted separately to each newsgroup.
That in itself was an abuse of resources.

* Followups were going to be in each posted newsgroup not in just a handful
of groups. Obviously Clarence was not interested in any kind of organized
discussion (I doubt he will read every newsgroup to see what people have to
say). The followups would put more pressure on the available resources.

Up until recently we had a dialup connection. We still have people who
dial in to read news. Just getting a whole bunch of "Re: Global Alert..."
subject lines over 2400 or even 9600 is time consuming. And some
newsreaders (we use Macintoshes) don't have a kill file implementation.

I dislike the idea that single articles can be canceled this easily, but
when it comes to massive attacks on the usenet, I am glad there is
something that can be done.

-mahboud
---------------------------------------------------------------
Mahboud Zabetian
mah...@aggroup.com
ag group, inc.
2540 camino diablo, suite 200
walnut creek, ca 94596
510-937-7900 voice
510-937-2479 fax
510-937-6704 ara
ftp.aggroup.com anonymous ftp

[Paul Callahan]

sta...@skyking.oce.orst.edu (John Stanley) writes:

>The truth is sometimes easy.

But not *THIS* time! (as a certain Warner Bros. character would say).
I can see this line of argument is really going places.

[I wrote:]

>>communications lines, but I also think that those who reserve the
>>right to reject postings arbitrarily should not be allowed to
>>participate in Usenet.

>Who will you select to enforce this law?

Well, *I* won't select anybody. The issue is far to complex for me to propose
specific fixes (though I thought Abian had an interesting suggestion :-). I'm
just saying that this is a worthy goal for whatever it is that Usenet evolves
into. When a resource this powerful becomes integrated into everyday life,
equal access becomes essential. It happened with radio transmission, and it
happened with telephones. It will happen with worldwide bulletin board
systems (for lack of a better term). Whether it goes by the name "Usenet" or
uses the same communications protocols is irrelevant. But Usenet is here,
it's Huge, and it's a concrete testbed for gaining insight into the
intricacies.

People are understandably reluctant to admit to a public responsibility, as it
amounts to an inconvenience and an intrusion into their plans. It's
unfortunate that outside regulation, as history shows, is usually necessary to
insure the public interest. It would be very nice if this could be avoided or
at least minimized in the case of Usenet. But resorting to the old "I paid
for the equipment." or "I work to make these things possible." lines is not
going to help to avoid this. What might help is to construct a set of
explicit guidelines.

The only thing that bothered me about the Thomas Cancellation was the complete
lack of *explicit* guidelines as to when such actions are allowed. It was
simply done, and there was much rejoicing. This is known as mobocracy. I may
be taking this one incident far too seriously, but I think it raises some
issues that are very serious and must be faced eventually.

[Willie Smith]

jdwa...@nyx.cs.du.edu (GOOCHIE) writes:

>I dunno about that having spoken to somone at their site from what i
>can gather as of jan 1st Clarence is no longer the admin of
>orion.cc.andrews.edu and he has annoyed rather a few people there.

You must admit, however, that taking away his admin privs on his
workstation hardly qualifies as appropriate response... I'd much
rather see a public apology from his superiors deploring his actions,
specifying his punishment, and promising no-one at _that_ computer
center will ever do anything like that again.

Anything less makes it sound like they agree with him, though they
felt they had to take _some_ action to appease the satanic hordes -
"Bad Clarence! Don't ever do that again, eh? Nudge, Nudge, Wink,
Wink...."

[Tim Pierce]

In article <2hphkt$a...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu>,
Paul Callahan <call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> wrote:

>mer...@ora.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:
>
>>Usenet is not a right, or a privilege, but an agreement among those
>>that maintain it, promote it, and yes, even pay for it.
>
>This is a reasonable view, and correctly describes Usenet as it has
>existed since its inception, but I'm not absolutely certain that this
>model scales up.

Well, you're free to hold that opinion. As long as administrators
share Randal's view, though, I believe it'll continue to hold true;
the more that posters insist on a "right" to use other people's
resources for making their opinions heard, the more likely it is that
sites will begin dropping off the net.

--
____ Tim Pierce / "Is that a UNIX book? ... Cool!"
\ / twpi...@unix.amherst.edu /
\/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / -- Garth, WAYNE'S WORLD 2

[Richard H. Miller]

In article <1994Jan21....@newshost.pictel.com>, wp...@newshost.pictel.com (Willie Smith) writes:
|> jdwa...@nyx.cs.du.edu (GOOCHIE) writes:
|>
|> >I dunno about that having spoken to somone at their site from what i
|> >can gather as of jan 1st Clarence is no longer the admin of
|> >orion.cc.andrews.edu and he has annoyed rather a few people there.
|>
|> You must admit, however, that taking away his admin privs on his
|> workstation hardly qualifies as appropriate response... I'd much
|> rather see a public apology from his superiors deploring his actions,
|> specifying his punishment, and promising no-one at _that_ computer
|> center will ever do anything like that again.

He 'lost' his sys-admin privs prior to this incident; the report I saw
was 1/1/94 so the loss was not 'punishment'. As far as the site promising
to 'never sin again', that is a totally unreasonable request. Did you make
the same demand from the other sites who had users post to all groups?

|>
|> Anything less makes it sound like they agree with him, though they
|> felt they had to take _some_ action to appease the satanic hordes -
|> "Bad Clarence! Don't ever do that again, eh? Nudge, Nudge, Wink,
|> Wink...."

Give me a break, why should a site have to submit to public humiliation; by
this logic portal should have to apologize for the JPP fiasco of several years
ago. I suggest that you take them at their word that appropriate measures are
being taken. They do not (and probably should not) have to inform the net of
what they do so long as the problem does not reoccur from that user at that
site.

--
Richard H. Miller Email: ri...@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
Houston, Texas 77030

[Sridhar Venkataraman]

a...@gandalf.think.com (Tony Kimball) writes:
| Paul Callahan (call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu) wrote:

| : brings up another issue, which is whether it might not have been more

| : proper to use local expiration and refusal to propagate rather than
| : global cancellation as the means of eliminating this posting.

How is "refusal to propagate" different from global cancellation in intent?
Also, please tell us howyou would have been able to "refuse to propagate"
when a posting has been posted to each newsgroup (with a unique message-id
for each) and has no other common thing except the poster and the
content of course (which obviously wasn't known until the posting was
done).

| In my opinion, the appropriate place to stop this sort of thing
| is at the source, not the destination. Future generations of news

| posting software and NNTP servers could be equipped to recognize
| such flagrant abuse, by detecting cross posts exceeding a set limit,
| and by hashing all posts, rejecting any post which hashes to a value
| which more than N posts have hashed to in the last M hours.

People using offline newsreaders will be severely impacted by this. That was
just to show one example where you idea isn't practical. There wasn't any
abuse with the posting except for the fact that the poster pasted his
posting using the entire active file. Another case where the idea fails is
in the sources newsgroups where the moderator posts a multi-part posting.

I am definitely for some limits on crossposting offcourse. It is becoming
difficult due to the bozosity of Usenet that the threads due to such
crossposting refuse to die because the appropriate followup-to wasn't set in
the original posting.

If he had used crossposts, I would bet that a lot of groups would have been
spared from this posting because the hierarchies contain a lot of moderated
groups and the poster fortunately didn't try to forge an approval.

Sridhar.
--
Sridhar Venkataraman ASU, Tempe, Arizona USA sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu

[Timo Salmi]

In article <tunaCJy...@netcom.com> tu...@netcom.com (Chris Cochems) writes:
:I concider myself to be the only acceptable censor of what I read.
:Fortunately, kill files give me a way to impose my own censorship for

Normally I would agree with you, but in a case of a posting escapade
of these proportions the statement simply is no more practial. I
don't see this particular case as a question of censorship. The
volume of this incident puts it a class of its own without much
precedents. Still, I agree with another poster that the ideal way
to handle events like this would be at the origin rather than at the
receiving end.

It is clear that in this case there is much confusion between
principles and practicalities. Common sense should prevail. Yet
(most of) this discussion is necessary, since incidents like this
might take place again, although we must hope that they wouldn't.

Disclaimer: I am not condoning self-appointed cancellations, but in
this one case I am not objecting either because of the exceptional
circumstances.

All the best, Timo

..................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi Co-moderator of comp.archives.msdos.announce
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous FTP archives 128.214.87.1
Faculty of Accounting & Industrial Management; University of Vaasa
Internet: t...@uwasa.fi BBS +(358)-61-3170972; FIN-65101, Finland

[Michael Moroney]

In article <CJuz4...@eecs.nwu.edu>, Patrick A. Townson wrote:
> My goodness! Did you type in all those control/cancel messages by
> hand over and over? Was it really worth the bother? Wouldn't
> the message have expired in its own good time anyway? (and given
> the volume of traffic that probably would not have been very long).
>
> Or did you write a script which went newsgroup by newsgroup grabbing
> what was needed then dealing with it, etc ...

>
> Either way, seems like a waste of time just to get rid of a message
> dealing with Seventh Day Adventist stuff that would vanish on its
> own anyway given a few days at most.

Many people pay for USENET access, specifically for downloading the groups
they choose to read. These people were greeted with multiple copies of
the same message, one for just about every group they read. And, other
than any *.religion groups they may read, the messages were all irrelevant
to the groups. The cancels were a favor to those people fortunate
enough not to have downloaded news between the time their host site received
the messages to the time it processed the cancels. In addition, the
cancels freed up several megabytes per site of news spool space.
(However, *posting* a list of cancels canceled quite a bit of that benefit)

I'm sure the cancels were done by a script, and the original posts were
certainly done by a script as well)

-Mike

[Clay Shirky]

In <2hoqu4$5...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:

>nrea...@micrognosis.co.uk (Neil Readwin) writes:

>>You have no right to free expression using equipment paid for by my
>>employers. None. Not even a little bit.

>It's easy for you to make this statement. But I guarantee that this
>seemingly simple argument would not hold water, if, for example, a
>group of companies in the US (I realize your domain is .uk) were
>conspiring to refuse to propagate postings from a specific minority
>group.

No, Neil is correct even in America. Check out the Supreme Court's
"Pruneyard Shopping Centers v. Robbins" in 1980, in which they found
that no putative right to free speech exists in privately owned spaces,
even if they are publicly accessible.
--
Clay Shirky

[Clay Shirky]

In <1994Jan21....@newshost.pictel.com> wp...@newshost.pictel.com (Willie Smith) writes:

>You must admit, however, that taking away his admin privs on his
>workstation hardly qualifies as appropriate response... I'd much
>rather see a public apology from his superiors deploring his actions,
>specifying his punishment, and promising no-one at _that_ computer
>center will ever do anything like that again.

No. Look at the time frame. The change in his status at Andrews came _before_
his posting escapades. It was merely noted by their sysadmin trying to explain
his current status.

As for no one at that computer center ever doing enything like that again,
that would require a degree of censorship far in excess of net norms, since
_any_ of us could do something like that at any time. What you are advocating
is that the ordinary users at that site be under suspiscion forever because
of one irresponsible user.
--
Clay Shirky

[Stephen P. Potter]

Redirecting followups to news.admin.misc. This doesn't need to be carried
on in news.groups and alt.config.

In article <2hpqrm$e...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> ri...@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:
In article <1994Jan21....@newshost.pictel.com>, wp...@newshost.pictel.com (Willie Smith) writes:
|> You must admit, however, that taking away his admin privs on his
|> workstation hardly qualifies as appropriate response... I'd much

He 'lost' his sys-admin privs prior to this incident; the report I saw

was 1/1/94 so the loss was not 'punishment'. As far as the site promising

Since his privs were pulled for this incident, this is kind of worthless,
but... he was listed as the contact point for cc.andrews.edu, so pulling
his administration *of that network* (not just his workstation) would be a
valid punishment.

Steve
--
University of Florida, Department of Computer and Information Sciences
email: s...@cis.ufl.edu, Bitnet:Prisoner@ufcc
smail: Stephen P Potter, E309A CSE, UF Campus
Click here to find out about the <a href=http://www.cis.ufl.edu/perl>Perl World Wide Web Page</a>

[Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran]

In article <2hoqu4$5...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu>,
Paul Callahan <call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu> wrote:

>nrea...@micrognosis.co.uk (Neil Readwin) writes:
>>You have no right to free expression using equipment paid for by my
>>employers. None. Not even a little bit.
>
>It's easy for you to make this statement. But I guarantee that this
>seemingly simple argument would not hold water, if, for example, a
>group of companies in the US (I realize your domain is .uk) were
>conspiring to refuse to propagate postings from a specific minority
>group. I can certainly imagine someone initiating a lawsuit on these
>grounds, though I don't know how it would turn out.

Depending on why they were refusing to propogate. If they are
refusing to propogate because they are sending messages telling
people how to build pipe bombs, how to break into computers, and
activly encouraging people to do these things, they they might
have a case.

>For a more
>concrete example, telephone companies cannot refuse to install lines
>for blacks on the theory that "we paid for the equipment; we can do
>what we like with it."

Except that the phone company is _not_ paying for the equipment. The
user is. The phone company certainly has the right to prevent people
from tapping into their phone lines to make local phone calls WITHOUT
PAYING FOR THE SERVICE.

The same case has come up with newspapers many times. People want them
to print articles talking about how Jesus is coming, and the end of
the world is near. The newspaper refuses, and they get sued on
"free speech" grounds. The deciding factor in these cases is that
the NEWSPAPER owns the presses. That's why you see so many of those
"articles" with the little (paid advertisement) disclaimer at the top.

The bottom line is that is you want to PAY a newspaper to print something
and they refuse, they have to give you a reason. But you have no right
to DEMAND that they print something, just like you have no right to
DEMAND that a system propogate your posts, or carry a newsgroup that
you want.

>These are issues that have to be resolved.

They have been. Not in the .net world, but they have been.

>Your employers have
>undeniable property rights, but it's these rights do not override all
>other concerns.

Of course not.

>In fact, I agree that private companies should be
>allowed complete discretion in what they choose to do with their
>communications lines,

Note that "private companies" are not allowed "complete discrition" in
what "they choose to do with their communications lines".

>but I also think that those who reserve the
>right to reject postings arbitrarily should not be allowed to
>participate in Usenet.

Including, say, participation during Hurrican Andrew and the earthquake
in LA?

>The smugness of the dictum "posting is a privilege, not a right"

Posting is a privlege. If posting is a "right", then should I be
able to force my hypothetical employer (oh, let's say that he owns
a gay bar that caters to people into leathersex and watersports)
to buy the equipment, software, phone lines, etc so that I can post
to alt.cute.furry-animals.cats.are.so.precious?

>stems only from the fact that it has not yet been tested.

It has been. Talk to ROBERT MCELWAINE.
--
=kcoc...@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. OK???=
=The government that can ban abortions can also mandate them. Think about it.=

[Roy M. Silvernail]

call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:

> mer...@ora.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:
>
>>Usenet is not a right, or a privilege, but an agreement among those
>>that maintain it, promote it, and yes, even pay for it.
>
> This is a reasonable view, and correctly describes Usenet as it has
> existed since its inception, but I'm not absolutely certain that this
> model scales up.

Unless and until the ownership of the machines upon which Usenet exixts
is socialized by some higher authority, it scales just fine. There
ain't no point at which I lose control of my property simply because
it's used in support of Usenet.

For that matter, if said socialization ever were to come about, I
believe I'd withdraw. If the gummint siezes all our computers to
guarantee the "right to Usenet", that _is_ the Death Of The Net.

Randal's right. It's not a right or a priviege. And it will never
become either one.
--
Roy M. Silvernail [ ] r...@sendai.cybrspc.mn.org
head -2 /usr/philosophy/survival | PGP 2.3a public key
#! /usr/local/bin/perl -n | available upon request
next unless /$clue/; | (send yours)

[Paul Callahan]

r...@sendai.cybrspc.mn.org (Roy M. Silvernail) writes:

>Unless and until the ownership of the machines upon which Usenet exixts
>is socialized by some higher authority, it scales just fine.

Thank goodness there are those among us with such piercing intellects
to perceive the *effect* of drastically increasing the size of Usenet
without actually performing the experiment. Our worries are over.
According to Mr. Silvernail, "It scales just fine."

>For that matter, if said socialization ever were to come about, I
>believe I'd withdraw. If the gummint siezes all our computers to
>guarantee the "right to Usenet", that _is_ the Death Of The Net.

You might. Others might. And indeed, it just *might* be the Death of
Usenet. Note that this would not be the death of the communication
technology on which it is based, or the death of the desire for global
information exchance.

>Randal's right. It's not a right or a priviege. And it will never
>become either one.

Access to Usenet as such may never be considered a right. However, as
the daily functioning of people's lives depends more and more on this
kind of information exchange, providing fair access and reasonable
guarantees against arbitrary censorship will be perceived as being in
the public interest. Hence, if those who form the "agreement" that is
Usenet insist *in principle* on their right to arbitrary control over
all data passing through their equipment, then Usenet will not become
the model for global information exchange in the future.

N.B: In practice, of course, any site that exercises control outside
of a certain vaguely perceived set of limitations get chastised by the
mob, so such rights have always been illusory.

I, for one, would rather pay an access fee for a system with explicit
guarantees against arbitrary censorship than have free access, as I now
do, to a system as ill-defined as Usenet. I suspect I am not alone in
this.

[Eric Huppertz]

In article <2hpqrm$e...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> ri...@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:
>

>Give me a break, why should a site have to submit to public humiliation; by
>this logic portal should have to apologize for the JPP fiasco of several years
>ago.

I've never heard of this. Who are what is/was JPP? What happened?

Regards,

[Mark Eckenwiler]

Actually, the decision in _PruneYard_ [sic] stands for a very
different proposition: that a state (in that case, California) may
limit *private* restraints on speech in some circumstances. The
California Supreme Court had held that the PruneYard mall could not,
consistent with California law, suppress peaceful leafletting in the
mall on the basis of content; the Supreme Court affirmed.

Followups to misc.legal.

--
Left on Spit Brook, right on Daniel Webster.

Mark Eckenwiler e...@panix.com

[Willie Smith]

ri...@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:

>wp...@newshost.pictel.com (Willie Smith) writes:
>|> rather see a public apology from his superiors deploring his actions,
>|> specifying his punishment, and promising no-one at _that_ computer
>|> center will ever do anything like that again.

>As far as the site promising

>to 'never sin again', that is a totally unreasonable request. Did you make
>the same demand from the other sites who had users post to all groups?

No, as we got it anyway, the sysadmins of the schools involved posted
several notes to the effect of "We know, we know, we're taking care of
it, it won't happen again!" All we've heard from the admins at
andrews.edu is "".

>Give me a break, why should a site have to submit to public humiliation

So the rest of the net can rest assured that they really _are_ sorry
and will take steps to ensure it doesn't happen again (implement
procedures to make new users start with news.announce.newusers,
provide handouts describing the net and accepted behavior, disabling
posting for the first 30 days, etc, etc, etc). Yes, _Clarence_
probably new better, but had he signed the "I understand what the net
is and what appropriate behavior consists of." Authorization To Use
News paperwork, he might have been a tad more circumspect. Yeah, I'm
dreaming... 8*}

>I suggest that you take them at their word that appropriate measures are
>being taken.

What word? No, The Word doesn't count... We haven't heard word one
from the admins at andrews.edu! All we've heard is vague rumors that
something happening.

> They do not (and probably should not) have to inform the net of
>what they do so long as the problem does not reoccur from that user at that
>site.

Wrong, they should crawl on their bellies in humble apology to the
Net.Gods in full public view. Not only will this ensure that 'that
user at that site' doesn't do a repeat, it makes it a lot more likely
that _no_ user at that site will try anything like that again, and
even adds to the probability that other sites who see this happen will
attempt to educate the clueless newbies before they unleash them on
the net...

[Willie Smith]

ad...@andrews.edu (Edsel Adap) writes:
>OK. I am one of the Sys Admins for the andrews.edu domain and am going
>to clarify a few things.

I take it back, we _have_ heard from the admins at andrews.edu!
Thanks for the response!

>First of all, the lack of replies was due to the fact that the school
>was closed for a few days because of very bad weather.

Well, if no-one dialed in from home, and no-one was watching the
systems, that's a whole nother problem, but response of some kind as
soon as you know there's a problem really helps reduce flaming,
speculation, and net bandwidth.

>2nd, it is very difficult to send a reply to thousands of messages
>especially when the matter has not been completely settled by the proper
>authorities although they are working on it.

So drop a quick note into news.something saying "We're aware of the
problem, we're taking steps, we'll get back to you, please stop the
mailbombing!"

>5. We do not condone his actions. In fact, strict disciplinary
>measures are being done.

Excellent, that's what we really wanted to hear. It may be none of
_our_ business what specific disciplinary actions are taken, but you
may wish to ensure that the other users at andrews.edu are aware of
his predicament...

Thanks again!

[Mark Kupferman]

Willie Smith (wp...@newshost.pictel.com) wrote:

: No, as we got it anyway, the sysadmins of the schools involved posted

: several notes to the effect of "We know, we know, we're taking care of
: it, it won't happen again!" All we've heard from the admins at
: andrews.edu is "".

Actually, that's not quite true. One of the admins at andrews.edu has been
sending private responses to those who mail the site with concerns. The
actual message is posted somewhere in news.*, although I don't remember
where. The post maintains that Clarence Thomas is not a system
administrator, and that the school in no way supports/supported Thomas'
abuse of computer resources. It also said that Thomas is probably going to
be pretty thoroughly disciplined by the powers that be at Andrews.

I can't imagine why the admins, or anyone else for that matter from that
site, would post any apology to alt.config, or any other alt group, for
that rate, considering that the message supposidly never touched any of
the alt groups to begin with. I suppose it would be feasable for them to
send an apology to every newsgroup that Thomas' message went to, but
somehow that seems like yet another waste.

: >Give me a break, why should a site have to submit to public humiliation

: So the rest of the net can rest assured that they really _are_ sorry
: and will take steps to ensure it doesn't happen again (implement
: procedures to make new users start with news.announce.newusers,
: provide handouts describing the net and accepted behavior, disabling
: posting for the first 30 days, etc, etc, etc). Yes, _Clarence_
: probably new better, but had he signed the "I understand what the net
: is and what appropriate behavior consists of." Authorization To Use
: News paperwork, he might have been a tad more circumspect. Yeah, I'm
: dreaming... 8*}

You really are dreaming. the sysadm at andrews.edu mentioned that Thomas
was no longer running whatever system he was running
(orion.*.andrews.edu). We aren't talking about some new user here - we're
talking about someone with enough knowledge to write a script to post to
every newsgroup in his .newsrc file. We're talking about a former system
administrator. How you expect restrictions on new users to prevent
fanatical sysadms from getting access to scripting tools is beyond me.

: >I suggest that you take them at their word that appropriate measures are
: >being taken.

: What word? No, The Word doesn't count... We haven't heard word one
: from the admins at andrews.edu! All we've heard is vague rumors that
: something happening.

See above. If you want word from the source, perhaps you should send them
a letter yourself?

: > They do not (and probably should not) have to inform the net of

: >what they do so long as the problem does not reoccur from that user at that
: >site.

: Wrong, they should crawl on their bellies in humble apology to the
: Net.Gods in full public view. Not only will this ensure that 'that
: user at that site' doesn't do a repeat, it makes it a lot more likely
: that _no_ user at that site will try anything like that again, and
: even adds to the probability that other sites who see this happen will
: attempt to educate the clueless newbies before they unleash them on
: the net...

Wow. I get the impression that you'd be in favor of tar and feathering,
whippings, gallows, public execution and televising of all of these events.
I guess someone had to once support those things to make them possible.

__________________________________________________________________________
Mark Kupferman cat...@minerva.cis.yale.edu

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Callahan <call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu> writes:
Paul> [...] When a resource this powerful becomes integrated into everyday life,
Paul> equal access becomes essential.[...]

That's not a given. Take "money" for example. Money is *extremely*
powerful in most forms of modern society. And yet, it has *no* equal
access (Donald Trump, even in his decline, has a *much* better chance
of a million dollar loan than I do).

No, life *isn't* fair. The only level playing field disappeared 70
billion years ago. :-) And Usenet is just a bunch of adults talking
about things amongst themselves... it's not some all-powerful force
that you *need* to be able to access to live and breathe.

If that's what you think, you need to look away from the screen once
in a while. Seriously.

Just another old-time usenetter (thanks for email support responses, too!),
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <mer...@ora.com> Snail/FAX: (Call) aka: <mer...@teleport.com>
Phrase: "Welcome to Portland, Oregon ... home of the California Raisins!"

[Michael S. Zraly]

call...@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:
>nrea...@micrognosis.co.uk (Neil Readwin) writes:
>>You have no right to free expression using equipment paid for by my
>>employers. None. Not even a little bit.
>
>It's easy for you to make this statement. But I guarantee that this
>seemingly simple argument would not hold water, if, for example, a
>group of companies in the US (I realize your domain is .uk) were
>conspiring to refuse to propagate postings from a specific minority

>group. I can certainly imagine someone initiating a lawsuit on these

>grounds, though I don't know how it would turn out. For a more

>concrete example, telephone companies cannot refuse to install lines
>for blacks on the theory that "we paid for the equipment; we can do
>what we like with it."

The situation actually depends upon the business in which the companies
are involved. In the U.S. there is a distinction made between 'common
carriers,' which are in the business of providing communications or
transportation services, and other businesses. Common carriers are
required to provide service on equal terms to all members of the community.
If i'm not mistaken, this concept first appeared in the U.S. to prevent
the railroad companies from manipulating markets by refusing to carry
freight for competing business interests. Communication providers
such as Western Union soon fell under the same common carrier regulations.
The net result is that these companies cannot refuse to do business with
specific groups or entities; I don't believe they are required to
provide free access however.

--
Mike Zraly Belief is no substitute
mzr...@cs.umb.edu for arithmetic