barefooted warriors in somalia
simba
soidiers in the world and even captured some of their leaders.Now this
calls for a sreious consideration of the effectiveness and *eliteness* of
the U.S.special forces.It is clear that these special forces were actually
a bunch of scared kids far away from the comforts of base life.The fact
that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
tony ivan zbaraschuk
No, it shows that the US was operating under the restriction "thou shalt
not mow down crowds of innocent civilians in order to rescue your
soldiers."
TZ
Richard H. Miller
It also means that thou shalt not put light infantry into action unless you
have the means to reinforce them with heavy forces if required (and not have
to wait several hours for the heavy force to get prepared to move out.)
--
Richard H. Miller Email: ri...@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
Houston, Texas 77030
PORA, WILLIAM LONG
>a handful of illeterate nomadic somali youths routed the best elite
>that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
>tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
It also shows me that if they have enough food to go and shoot down one of our
choppers, then they can bloody well take care of themselves, and we should
pull our boys home. Let the warlords feed them. We came to help these people
and all theyt do is shoot, spit, and throw rocks at us.
It also shows me that the same government that let our men in vietnam down is
still alive and well in Washington DC. They still haggle over what will look
better to the voters come election time, while US soldiers fight in somalia.
It shows me that the voters were morons in electing a man who admits foreign
policy baffles him. How could the voters have been so short sighted?
Lastly it shows me that you sir are a moron. I have friends who have been
rangers. I have friends who are rangers. They are not the pampered playboys
you make them out to be. The fact that they have the equipment they need, and
all the supplies they need does not make them prima donnas. One of them is worth
ten of those somali "boys". So unless you've been in the thick of it then
SHUT UP!
Ahmed Abu-Abed
In article <CEJAz...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, tzba...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (tony ivan zbaraschuk) writes:
Don't think the last statement is true since a few weeks back more than
100 civilian protesters were gunned down from US helicopters.
Can anyone outline what really happened in the battle that got
12 American soldiers killed, and how are the helicopters are being
shot down with apparently dumb rocket launchers intended for tanks ?
Apparently the Somalis have acquired NCM (nomadic countermeasures) skills !
Thanks in advance.
Daniel Zabetakis
The following is all my opinion. Many people disagree strongly, which is
fine.
In article <wardigle-0...@hf-mac54.uio.no>, simba <wardigle> wrote:
>a handful of illeterate nomadic somali youths routed the best elite
>soidiers in the world and even captured some of their leaders.
"Best elite soldiers" is an oxymoron. The best soldiers are not elite.
In fact, elite units aren't good (or better) at anything except thinking
they are better. Usually if they perform better it is because they are
kept up to strength when regular units are not. Otherwise, they only create
discipline problems and conflict with civilians.
>Now this
>calls for a sreious consideration of the effectiveness and *eliteness* of
>the U.S.special forces.It is clear that these special forces were actually
>a bunch of scared kids far away from the comforts of base life.
All soldiers are scared kids. The big problem is that scared kids who are
armed can do a lot of damage in a short period to an unarmed populace. It's
going to be a disaster the first time some M-1's get in trouble. With 8
.50 cal and 4 7.62mm machine guns, and platoon of M-1's can kill a lot of
people very fast.
>The fact
>that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
>tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
I wouldn't say that. It seems to me that there isn't any enemy there.
We are fighting 'everyone'. It's very dangerous to fight with helicopters
when you can't identify an enemy. "Don't overfly the target" is copter
rule #1. In an occupation situation, it is impossible to not fly over
potential hostile areas.
DanZ
--
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
Juan Carlos Barroux R. - CS Manager Sun Interamericana
> Well.. That's your opinion. I personally think we should pull out and
>nuke the whole f*ing country back to the stone age. (wouldn't be that big
>of a time jump) >
> Kane
Well. I think that this usage of the Gringos is getting really
annoying. Each time they pick an Official Villain they want to bomb the
whole country back to stone age. This is making the rest of the world a
little nervous.
Speaking for himself,
Juan Carlos
HARTY, DANIEL JOSEPH
Well.. That's your opinion. I personally think we should pull out and
nuke the whole f*ing country back to the stone age. (wouldn't be that big
_other_ people off to risk their lives in some pisshole after being so
conscientious during Viet Nam?
Kane
********************************************************************************
Impeach Billary Chicken!
Ted Kennedy is a Muppet!
********************************************************************************
The above are my opinions only! Buy your own!
Joseph Partridge
>soidiers in the world and even captured some of their leaders.Now this
>calls for a sreious consideration of the effectiveness and *eliteness* of
>the U.S.special forces.
The Rangers are not Special Forces. They are pretty good light infantry, but
they are not Special Forces.
> It is clear that these special forces were actually
>a bunch of scared kids far away from the comforts of base life.The fact
>that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
>tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
I'm not so sure. The relief forces were international troops (non-US) that had
not been working togather very long. Eight hours is a very short time to put
togather an international mission. Of course, one would hope that it would not
take as long in the future, as the troops have time to work and train togather.
Joe Partridge
Joseph Partridge
little in common, I am with you in spirit. We came to help these people eat.
I think it is very clear that we have overstayed our welcome.
>It also shows me that the same government that let our men in vietnam
>down is still alive and well in Washington DC. They still haggle over what
>will look better to the voters come election time, while US soldiers fight in
>somalia.
Once again, I am with you in spirit. Bring the boys home and damn the
political cost.
>It shows me that the voters were morons in electing a man who admits foreign
>policy baffles him. How could the voters have been so short sighted?
Rule of Politics #672: The voters are allways shortsighted in America. People
just weren't thinking about forign policy last November.
>Lastly it shows me that you sir are a moron. I have friends who have been
>rangers. I have friends who are rangers. They are not the pampered playboys
>you make them out to be. The fact that they have the equipment they need, and
>all the supplies they need does not make them prima donnas. One of them is
>worth ten of those somali "boys". So unless you've been in the thick of it
>then SHUT UP!
Not being in the thick of it should not prohibit one from participating in this
conversation. I feel that this was a "bait" post, so let's keep our wits about
us and respond in a rational manner.
Joe Partridge
Markus Kassbohrer
by simba@???
> From: wardigle (simba)
> Subject: barefooted warriors in somalia
> Date: 7 Oct 1993 14:32:29 GMT
I must admit that I find this post to be extremely bad form.
Nobody has even hinted at the US pursuing any kind of non-benevolent
aims in Somalia. In fact, I have yet to hear anyone deny that they are
there in principle to make it possible to save the country's population
from starvation, and in particular as the backbone of a multinational
force of UN peace troops that is to bring *peace* to that country.
Now events have developed in such a way that there is some
non-legitimated organisation that opposes this operation because its
power base is threatened, and opposes it by attacking those peace troops.
As the best-suited troops for adressing this threat happen to be
American, they undoubtedly do their best to, once again, restore peace
and conditions for normal human life (I hesitate to type "prosperity",
this post is laden with abstractions anyway).
They lose people doing so. Americans get killed there on a humanitarian
mission without immediate benefit to their country, I think so much can
be said.
May I suggest that instead of heaping abuse on the mourning we be
grateful that they, as well as *a lot* of others (Pakistani, Malayans,
Italians, Swedish, Germans and all the other countries that have sent
people to *help*) did not let the Somalian people die in scores in a war
and warlord-caused famine?
Best regards,
-Markus.
PS: (1) Illiteracy is *nothing* to be proud of (besides being claimed to
be higher-than-average in the US military, too?? :) Just a rumour).
(2) Shooting down a helicopter surprised in a hovering position with
a Soviet-made ZSU 'Shilka' AA gun AFV conceived for exactly that is
nothing to be very proud of, too.
(3) Being vastly superiour in numbers, knowing the territory and
having armoured vehicles at hand (metal-plated trucks or whatever; the
Shilka is said to have been used in a ground role, too), fighting
for eight hours without completely crushing your opposition is, from a
military point of view, nothing to be proud of *at all*.
It might even substantiate a claim of "eliteness" on the part of your
foes, scared kids that they are in combat as well as anyone else would
be in their situation...
Juan Carlos Barroux R. - CS Manager Sun Interamericana
population of Somalia has so much hate against the US troops?
I would like to know...
chunde
Willia...@vos.stratus.com
@ Now. Just a question. Does anybody have any idea on why the general
@ population of Somalia has so much hate against the US troops?
I really don't know if the 'general population' has much hate for
US troops..., I mean..., do we really know what's going on over there?
It is obvious that certain groups do show hatred toward US troops, but
are simple news clips enough to say that the 'general puplic' in Somalia
are hateful toward US troops? Our media hasn't given us enough information
on the entire scope of Somalia.
As far as the groups that do display their hatred: I would be feeling
the same way if UN troops were dispatched to my state to try and enforce
military rule.
-Bill M.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased |
| at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty |
| God! I know not what course others may take; but, as for |
| me, give me liberty, or give me death! |
| ---Patrick Henry |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
itiakorit j osele
bravity, I think.
Itiakorit
Floyd Low
In a previous article, djh...@zeus.tamu.edu (HARTY, DANIEL JOSEPH) says:
>In article <wardigle-0...@hf-mac54.uio.no>, wardigle (simba) writes...
>>a handful of illeterate nomadic somali youths routed the best elite
>and other spew.
> Well.. That's your opinion. I personally think we should pull out and
>nuke the whole f*ing country back to the stone age. (wouldn't be that big
>of a time jump) Anybody notice how fast happy Billary Chicken is to send
>_other_ people off to risk their lives in some pisshole after being so
>conscientious during Viet Nam?
>
> Kane
>
>********************************************************************************
>Impeach Billary Chicken!
>Ted Kennedy is a Muppet!
>
>********************************************************************************
>The above are my opinions only! Buy your own!
>
Today on CBC NEWSWORLD TV in Canada a commentator was talking about the
news media and Somalia
He said there is "OIL IN THEM THERE SOMALI HILLS!"
However he went on to state that networks in North America are downplaying
this angle.
Any one have any ideas, insights?
--
What I like about Internet is when I come back from a transborder
transmission there is no donkey wearing a Customs Uniform braying
"Where ya been, wadja buy.......?
Floyd Low
In a previous article, d...@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) says:
>
> The following is all my opinion. Many people disagree strongly, which is
>fine.
>
>In article <wardigle-0...@hf-mac54.uio.no>, simba <wardigle> wrote:
>>a handful of illeterate nomadic somali youths routed the best elite
>>soidiers in the world and even captured some of their leaders.
>
> "Best elite soldiers" is an oxymoron. The best soldiers are not elite.
>In fact, elite units aren't good (or better) at anything except thinking
>they are better. Usually if they perform better it is because they are
>kept up to strength when regular units are not. Otherwise, they only create
>discipline problems and conflict with civilians.
>
>>Now this
>>calls for a sreious consideration of the effectiveness and *eliteness* of
>>the U.S.special forces.It is clear that these special forces were actually
>>a bunch of scared kids far away from the comforts of base life.
>
> All soldiers are scared kids. The big problem is that scared kids who are
>armed can do a lot of damage in a short period to an unarmed populace. It's
>going to be a disaster the first time some M-1's get in trouble. With 8
>.50 cal and 4 7.62mm machine guns, and platoon of M-1's can kill a lot of
>people very fast.
>
>>The fact
>>that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
>>tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
>
> I wouldn't say that. It seems to me that there isn't any enemy there.
>We are fighting 'everyone'. It's very dangerous to fight with helicopters
>when you can't identify an enemy. "Don't overfly the target" is copter
>rule #1. In an occupation situation, it is impossible to not fly over
>potential hostile areas.
>
>DanZ
>
>--
>This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
>narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
>not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
>
>
On CNN today I saw an interview with a wounded US Sgt.
He said, ecept for South Mogadishu they are not having any problems and
that once this is resolved (he was not rabid or frothing at the mouth) he
said the country will be well on its way to improving life.
Any ideas/comments?
Nigel Tzeng
Heh...chalk it up to the efficiency of a unified UN command structure
and the fact that even elite units can get chopped up when ROEs suck
and the enemy is competent and you're stuck in a confined urban area.
Adid is winning easy points under a weak Democratic President who
can't figure out what to do and put our troops in places they really
shouldn't be anymore on missions that are best left to someone else.
The damned moron is going to turn Somolia into Vietnam...and that is a
fair assessment because Bush would have pull us out a long time ago...
or not let the UN hose up a simple relief effort or piss off the
warlords without having enough troops on hand to deal with the mess
that a gureilla warfare can often be.
Actually given the timing of the operation Bush certainly left Clinton
a real ticking timebomb that Bill should have known better to leave
unwatched. The Democrats can kiss off the next presidency if we
suffer any more bloody setbacks on this one.
Let the Rangers go on S&D missions and a lot of these brave somali
boys will never become men. But that will never happen because we're
on a Peacekeeping Mission under the bloody UN.
So go ahead and dance around because we lost some brave soldiers and
call them scared kids (after all they are kids and if you aren't
scared in a combat zone you're plain stupid). We don't much care
'cause in the end we'll win anyway. Even when we lose we win. Look
at Vietnam. What a prosperous country they have been in victory.
Frankly against the US I'd rather fight and lose badly...at least I'd
get foreign aid and reconstruction money when the shooting is done.
--
Nigel Tzeng
.sig under construction
Daniel Zabetakis
Floyd Low <ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>
>He said, ecept for South Mogadishu they are not having any problems and
>that once this is resolved (he was not rabid or frothing at the mouth) he
>said the country will be well on its way to improving life.
>
The BBC World Service reported the same thing some time ago when the
Italians pulled out of Mogadishu. The contryside, they said, wasn't
experiencing much disturbance. The only problems were where the foriegn
troops were stationed in large numbers.
"military predicts violence"
MR KR COMAN
>Subject: barefooted warriors in somalia
>Date: 7 Oct 1993 14:32:29 GMT
'Zat so?!
1.
The US forces in Mog. operate under strict discipline (a restraining
influence that many somali youths might personally find a little novel
and irksome), an essential part of which is to adhere (perhaps little too
rigidly) to "Rules of Engagement". Under the circumstances, I can well
imagine that one such RoE was an express limitation upon initiating fire.
Change the RoE's somewhat and 5 gets you 10 that CNN would be showing
smoking heaps of the brave and enlightened -- could well yet happen....
2.
The delays in effecting a rescue/response are totally inexcusable and point,
inter alia, to a deplorable lack of initiative by commanders on the spot.
Arguably the best response would have been one of: "Stuff checking with
'head office' to get approval, we've got men out there with their asses in a
crack." And, if to try to rescue them RoE's get ignored, well then the
ends justify the means: when push turns to shove, special force soldiers
aren't infinitely forebearing.......
On a personal note, the US should wash its hands completely of
Somalia, like as of next week: it's on a hiding to nowhere. Let the
Somalis' sort their own problems out in their own good time, perhaps with
the active help of the OAU and African members of the UN. The US role is
then to operate as an indirect background source of influence and
facilitation. The USA never has really understood or got to grips with
Africa when trying to play a sharp-end role. "Africa's problems can really
only be solved by Africans." ---> Today's trite, T-shirt truism.....
Chin, chin
Keith Coman
Markus Kassbohrer
Excerpts from netnews.alt.war: 8-Oct-93 Re: barefooted warriors in .. by
Daniel Zabetakis@cubmol.
> Floyd Low <ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
The BBC World Service reported the same thing some time ago when the
> Italians pulled out of Mogadishu. The contryside, they said, wasn't
> experiencing much disturbance. The only problems were where the foriegn
> troops were stationed in large numbers.
>
> "military predicts violence"
Hmmm, or maybe South Mogadishu just happens to be the centre of the fief
of warlord Aidid, and at the same time a critical location on the
Somalian coast (harbour, crossroads, capital).
Besides, you need targets to attack, and of course Americans are your
best bet to get prime time coverage.
Excerpts from netnews.alt.war: 8-Oct-93 Africans can fight too. Re:.. by
chu...@cs.uml.edu
>
>The events in Somalia certainly give some degree of pride to all Africans,
>as Somalies can take up on U.S. troops, no matter who are "good boys" or
>"bad boys" portrayed by West media.
>
Oh yeah, how nice. May I kill a few, too, just to show I have grown up?
Or maybe as they show such prowess killing Somalians will make me more
of a man?? That's stupid. There's nothing to be proud of killing people
who came to get food to the starving and dying.
As I posted earlier, from a purely military point of view there is
nothing at all to be proud of fighting such a long battle with such
local superiourity (hell, you had *armour*, and they are *light
infantry*) and not completely crush your opposition. The three aides of
Aidid are still in custody as far as I know- you failed your mission,
didn't you?
Excerpts from netnews.alt.war: 8-Oct-93 Re: barefooted warriors in .. by
MR KR CO...@giraffe.ru.a
> On a personal note, the US should wash its hands completely of
>Somalia, like as of next week: it's on a hiding to nowhere. Let the
>Somalis' sort their own problems out in their own good time, perhaps with
>the active help of the OAU and African members of the UN.
The - extensively reported - death of twelve Americans is deplorable, by
all means yes. But is it enough to scare the US out of the country?
Saddam Hussein spoke of 10.000 body bags to make the US back down. If no
oil is involved, that number goes down by 98.8% ??
>The US role is
>then to operate as an indirect background source of influence and
>facilitation.
What's that? Let the others do the dying, we'll be involved indirectly,
in the background, exert influence and facilitate. In other words, we
pay and direct, and they die and do. You'd get flamed all the same, just
that this time you're the big bad capitalist-imperialist-colonialist
conspirator in the background who sends others to their deaths. You can
easily find the historical analogy, just a few years *before* formal
colonies were instituted and Africans sold Africans (captured in
inter-tribal warfare) to Slave traders.
You get modern mercenaries on a state-to-state level (that is assuming
you don't expect for example Eritrea or Zambia to cough up the money,
hard currency, uncertain and sometimes lower UN reimbursement and all
that, for a peacekeeping operation). Don't expect to take the least bit
less heat for that.
>The USA never has really understood or got to grips with
>Africa when trying to play a sharp-end role. "Africa's problems can really
>only be solved by Africans." ---> Today's trite, T-shirt truism.....
>Chin, chin
>
Okay and true, and how about enabling them to do so? Like, to choose who
runs the country? Or on a personal level, to enable them to keep what
they produce? Would you work a lot if the next gunman who passes by just
takes what he likes and if you don't like that, too bad for you?
You can't exactly live without working, and you can't really improve
without working hard, but what's the incentive if you can't expect to
enjoy the fruits of your labour?
I am quite confident that with the current proliferation of economic
reforms in Africa we will see a rather different economic landscape in
ten years, and that will be something they can really be proud of (of
course, then we will complain about unfair competition and they aren't
*supposed* to make the same or maybe better goods cheaper than we do, as
we do now for the Four Tigers and East Europe, and put up tariff walls
and generally hide best as we could. And then they can justifiably heap
abuse on us, and boast of their prowess...).
Best regards,
-Markus.
itiakorit j osele
Ha ha ha ..... Aidid show them the works. Arrongance gets you nowhere.
Itiakorit
James William Stepanek
user itiakorit j osele@acsu.b writes:
>Ha ha ha ..... Aidid show them the works. Arrongance gets you nowhere.
>
>Itiakorit
Bloody wonderful post chump, you didn't need to quote his whole post to
include one line of ranting.
Anyway, I haven't heard of how many of the Somalis were aced in the
skirmish with the Rangers, does anybody know? I would imagine that they
took out more than their fair share, Rangers being rather competent
customers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Stepanek Graduate Student
Materials Science and Engineering Carnegie Mellon University
"All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others"
George Orwell-Animal Farm
Don't Worry it was just a tactical puke.
These are my opinions and if the university had them I'd probably go into
convulsions
--------------------------------esp------------------------------------------
Kiggundu Mukasa
>>the U.S.special forces.It is clear that these special forces were actually
>>a bunch of scared kids far away from the comforts of base life.The fact
>>that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
>>tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
>Heh...chalk it up to the efficiency of a unified UN command structure
>and the fact that even elite units can get chopped up when ROEs suck
>and the enemy is competent and you're stuck in a confined urban area.
Touchy touchy are we?? Did we hit a sensetive spot?
The Delta Force got its ass kicked.
How to `Toast' the "Worlds most elite fighting force;Delta Force":
1) Take a few young bare foot Somali boys
2) Add AK-47's
3) Mix in Delta Force Heavily armed and technologically superior :=)
4) ADD FIRE!
5) After 9 to 16 hours pull, out of fire
7) Presto!! highly Charcoaled Delta Force.
:=) :=) :=)
have a sense of humour ?????
Hears another one :=)
How to `Toast' an Appache Attack Helicopter
1) Take one Somali youth,
2) Take one home made catapult
3) Mix in smooth airodynamic pebbles
4) Present Appache Attack heavily armed helicoptor
4)Presto !! Highly charcoaled Multimillion dollar Appache Helicoptor
Ha ha ha ha ha ha :=) :=)
You have got to try and seee the lighter side of things :=)
try and make up one about Bradley Fighting Vehicles. :=)
Kiggundu
Daniel Zabetakis
James William Stepanek <js...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
>Anyway, I haven't heard of how many of the Somalis were aced in the
>skirmish with the Rangers, does anybody know? I would imagine that they
>took out more than their fair share, Rangers being rather competent
>customers.
>
The BBC reported truckloads of casualties among the Somalis.
You know what I'm about to say....
In a war without a clear imperative, the side that kills the _most_
looses. Or, you bought the bullet that killed the Somali for no clear
objective.
cxi...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
>
>Heh...chalk it up to the efficiency of a unified UN command structure
>and the fact that even elite units can get chopped up when ROEs suck
>and the enemy is competent and you're stuck in a confined urban area.
>
>Adid is winning easy points under a weak Democratic President who
>can't figure out what to do and put our troops in places they really
>shouldn't be anymore on missions that are best left to someone else.
>
genius too. Never tell people hwo elite your troops are. As we know,
"Bing lai xiong qi", or "Armed Force is dangerous". That is true to
other people, but also true to the armed force iteself too. So, "Shen Ren
bu de yi er yong zhi", or "Wiseman will not use it unless absorlutely
necessary". Do Clinton know this. I doubt. But he definitely knew that
armed force was dangerous to himself many years ago. But he forget
that now! Is that too bad?
Sharon Gunnels
>In article <STXTNT.93...@rs733.GSFC.NASA.Gov> stx...@rs733.GSFC.NASA.Gov (Nigel Tzeng) writes:
As I muse over the last comments, I wonder if anyone realizes that the
U.S. forces, perhaps not those in Somali right now though, could literally
level Somamlia at their own discretion. It is only because of moral terpitude
of the US that this very thing doesn't happen. Secondly, President George Bush
committed US forces to the area, not President William Clinton. As you all may
know, the US has occasional elections and President Bush lost. As far as
President Clinton being weak, he does have a higher (albeit not much higher)
approval rating in the US (which is what counts as far as his election is
concerned) at this point in history. Thirdly, place a weapon of any advanced
state in pretty much anyone's hands in "guerilla" warfare and they will do
pretty well. The US armed forces are meant to typically deal with large,
fairly slow forces (like Iraq's tanks or the USSR's forces), not small and
rapid forces as you often see in "guerilla" and "revolutionary" wars. I
personally believe that the US does not belong there, but what else are we to
do. Let 100,000's of people starve. Obviously the politics and economics of
the area (as well as the social dynamics in general) are far more complex than
many believe, but most soldiers who are there and many who are "volunteering"
do not believe they that they aren't making a difference.
/Sharon/
--
********************************************************************************"There are no victories, in all our histories, without love." - Sting
Support Gay Rights! Human Rights NOW! Free Tibet!
*******************************************************************************
Mark Andrew Landers
> As I muse over the last comments, I wonder if anyone realizes that the
>U.S. forces, perhaps not those in Somali right now though, could literally
>level Somamlia at their own discretion. It is only because of moral terpitude
>of the US that this very thing doesn't happen. Secondly, President George Bush
>committed US forces to the area, not President William Clinton. As you all may
When President Bush sent troops to Somalia, he also said that they would be
withdrawn near the last few days of his term. As they were being withdrawn,
Hillary's husband sent them back. President Bush sent them there with a mission
which had defined goals. When that mission was accomplished, he started to with
draw them. Hillary's husband put the troops under U.N. command and now they are
running around looking for the most televised face in the past 6 months. There
are no goals, no chain of command worth spitting at, and no hope of anything
short of American deaths, and cries of American's are evil war mongerers and
are trying to colonize so backwater desert country which can't feed itself.
>know, the US has occasional elections and President Bush lost. As far as
>President Clinton being weak, he does have a higher (albeit not much higher)
>approval rating in the US (which is what counts as far as his election is
George Bush's approval rating was 89% at one point in time.
>concerned) at this point in history. Thirdly, place a weapon of any advanced
>state in pretty much anyone's hands in "guerilla" warfare and they will do
>pretty well. The US armed forces are meant to typically deal with large,
>fairly slow forces (like Iraq's tanks or the USSR's forces), not small and
How were the USSR's forces slow? They were supposed to smash through one of the
largest armies in the world to get to France in 4 to 8 weeks. That is not slow.
>rapid forces as you often see in "guerilla" and "revolutionary" wars. I
>personally believe that the US does not belong there, but what else are we to
>do. Let 100,000's of people starve. Obviously the politics and economics of
They aren't starving now. Let Aidid make a provisional government and then let
the flunkies at the U.N. worry about it. I hardly doubt that the U.S. is
stopping them from installing the government they want. Maybe another dose of
starvation will get them thinking about who wants to help and who doesn't. Of
course that wouldn't be right to let innocents starve. But they seem all to
willing to just complain about everyone and everything. Maybe the L.A. city
council could deal with this situation better. Or how about, next time we have
a flood, Maxine Waters will support and amendment that will send every Somali
a hundred dollars, because, this is like a natural disaster, only man made.
>the area (as well as the social dynamics in general) are far more complex than
>many believe, but most soldiers who are there and many who are "volunteering"
>do not believe they that they aren't making a difference.
I think they believe that because their moral is getting lower daily. Lowering
moral comes from one source: bad leadership.
>/Sharon/
Mark
Scott Hazelhurst
>running around looking for the most televised face in the past 6 months. There
>are no goals, no chain of command worth spitting at, and no hope of anything
>short of American deaths, and cries of American's are evil war mongerers and
>are trying to colonize so backwater desert country which can't feed itself.
>the flunkies at the U.N. worry about it. I hardly doubt that the U.S. is
>stopping them from installing the government they want. Maybe another dose of
>starvation will get them thinking about who wants to help and who doesn't. Of
>course that wouldn't be right to let innocents starve
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
By Stephen Robinson
The Daily Telegraph
Washington
"No spectacle is quite so ridiculous as that of Washington's
political class puffed up with righteous indignation about
a foreign-policy crisis of its own making.
"Last Sunday's lethally bothched assault on the forces of
Somali warlord General Mohammed Farah Aidid, transformed
535 members of Congress into instant foreign-policy-experts.
Before television cameras they adopted a pose of surprised
annger at learning that 5000 young Americans were
stuck in the Horn of Afric with no clear mission and
in great danger.
....
"With the honourable exceptions -- such as the Republican
leader, Senator Bob Dole, who does not believe in exploiting
the death of US soldiers for petty political ends -- they
parroted the cry for immediate withdrawal.
"At the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue, the commander-in-chief
was no less scandalised, in public at least, to learn that
his troops were in peril. President Bill Clinton might be said
to be lacking in hands-on-miltary experience, but this did
not prevent him from casting aspersions at the bravery and
competence of UN troops.
"In a newspaper interview, he bemoaned the UN's ability to run
the Somalia operation. "This didn't happen to us when we had
28 000 people there and we could control the situation."
"Worse still he suggested that other components of the UN force
were too frightened to venture outside of their own sectors,
and "don't exactly follow the orders of the Turkish commander."
"Charges of insubordination against UN coalition troops are
serious. They are also tasteless, given that Pakistani
and Malaysian troops fought with valour, suffering casualties
to extricate the outgunned US force when it got into serious
trouble on Sunday.
"The US media have been curiously selective too.
"On yesterday's NBC breakfast television show, the deaths
on Sunday of 13 soldiers wwere still being referred to
as "a massacre", even though the the Red Cross has reported
that about 200 Somalis were killed and 500 were injured in
the battle.
"On television, Somalia has been played out as a great morality
tale about the ingratitude of foreigners. Viewers of TV have
no idea that hospitals in Mogadishu are crammed with limbless
Aidid supporters and civilians......
..."
--
---s...@cs.ubc.ca----------------------------------------------------------
Scott Hazelhurst
James William Stepanek
> The BBC reported truckloads of casualties among the Somalis.
>
> You know what I'm about to say....
> In a war without a clear imperative, the side that kills the _most_
>looses. Or, you bought the bullet that killed the Somali for no clear
>objective.
>
>DanZ
<Shudder> I am actually going to agree with Dan on this one. Dan is
aboslutely right. This whole thing is stupid and pointless, and without
a purpose in it, all we can do is lose no matter how the battles go.
James William Stepanek
On 10-Oct-93 in Re: FWD :Re: barefooted war..
user Sharon Gun...@ucs.orst. writes:
>rapid forces as you often see in "guerilla" and "revolutionary" wars. I
>personally believe that the US does not belong there, but what else are we to
>do. Let 100,000's of people starve. Obviously the politics and economics of
>many believe, but most soldiers who are there and many who are "volunteering"
>do not believe they that they aren't making a difference.
Yes, let them bloody starve.
PORA, WILLIAM LONG
>tale about the ingratitude of foreigners. Viewers of TV have
>no idea that hospitals in Mogadishu are crammed with limbless
>Aidid supporters and civilians......
Another phrase for "Aidid supporters" is hired gunmen and thugs.
And why shouldn't it be a tale about ingratitude? Did we try to
set up a puppet government? Did we go there seeking material gains?
No. We went there to feed people. To stop the bloodshed. We had
done this with few exceptions. One of those exceptions decided to fight
back. Aidid is nothing more than a well armed mafia kingpin, comparable to
Al capone. When he realized the little empire he'd amassed through treachery
and bloodshed would probably disappear in a democratic somalia he began his
little crusade against the US.
A few here make this man out to be some sort of patriot fighting against foreign
invaders. Perhaps instead of looking at the "hospitals in Mogadishu crammed
with limbless Aidid supporters and civilians" we should look at the hospitals
crammed with Aidid victims, those caught in the cross fires between his thugs
and the thugs of rival warlords.
Should we not be angry that crowds still gather in mogadishu to protest not
Aidid's rampage, but instead protest against those who want to help them?
Tony Barnes
>How to `Toast' the "Worlds most elite fighting force;Delta Force":
>1) Take a few young bare foot Somali boys
correction -- add a few THUGS who have the "courage" to fire
from within a crowd of Somali women and children, and then run.
>3) Mix in Delta Force Heavily armed and technologically superior :=)
another correction -- mix in a bunch of courageous US soldiers,
who DON'T want to hurt innocent civilians, and therefore can't
fight with their normal trained tenacity.
>7) Presto!! highly Charcoaled Delta Force.
another correction -- PRESTO, a bunch of OUR boys dead, because they
were trying to make a difference, trying to keep those "bare footed
Somali boys" from returning their country to chaos; trying to prevent
those "bare footed boys" from returning to allowing THEIR OWN women
and children to starve, by robbing food convoys.
You know, it's disgraceful that the so-called Somali leaders don't have the
intellect to realize that the type of aggression that they are wielding against
US/UN troops is senseless. It's also disgraceful that the Somali people them-
selves don't hand over the very same people who allowed them to starve. But
by far the most disgraceful thing is the flak that our troops are taking from
OUR OWN CITIZENS, because they're trying to make a difference over there.
What's the point? Whatever good the US tries to do around the world, we get
nailed for it, typically by the same nation that we are trying to help. We live
in a world of choices, folks. If the Somali men choose to wage war among
themselves, thereby ravaging their land, they have that right. If the Somali
men choose (by their continued warring) to allow their women and children to
starve, then they do indeed have that right also, as unfortunate (and
disgraceful) as that choice may be. Let's get out of there. Now.
---------------------
Anthony F. Barnes
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Barnes
Convex Computer Corporation
(214) 497-4872
Peter Wade
>Subject: Re: FWD :Re: barefooted warriors in somalia
>Date: 08 Oct 1993 22:00:32 GMT
[deletion]
>
>Let the Rangers go on S&D missions and a lot of these brave somali
>boys will never become men. But that will never happen because we're
>on a Peacekeeping Mission under the bloody UN.
>
>So go ahead and dance around because we lost some brave soldiers and
>call them scared kids (after all they are kids and if you aren't
>scared in a combat zone you're plain stupid). We don't much care
>'cause in the end we'll win anyway. Even when we lose we win. Look
>at Vietnam. What a prosperous country they have been in victory.
>
>Frankly against the US I'd rather fight and lose badly...at least I'd
>get foreign aid and reconstruction money when the shooting is done.
>
>
>
>--
>Nigel Tzeng
>.sig under construction
I am disturbed and depressed at the amount of wartalk that this subject has
encouraged.
To all you people who advocate "kicking ass" and S&D stuff I ask the
following questions -
Have you lost a close friend or relative to the insanity of war ?
Have you ever been shot at ?
Have you ever been threatened by an armed person ?
If so, did you find anything enjoyable about the experience ? If not, try
to imagine yourself in the position of anyone who might have answered "yes"
to the questions, and try to figure how you would feel. Try to imagine
what it is like when someone dies. There is a yawning gap in reality where
that person was. There is no more conversation with that person. You will
never know that person's opinion on a subject. You will never hear that
person's laughter or tears. That person's effects will lie around,
untouched, until someone else claims them or disposes of them. These
possessions will remind you simultaneously of that person's existence and
non-existence.
War is the process where people are exhorted to kill people they don't know
or understand, by other people who cower in the safety of bunkers. In
general, war is declared by older men who have had the benefit of their
youth, and it is fought by younger men who have so much to live for. It is
a process of rape of the youth by the government and the "enemy's"
government.
I, for one, have experienced too much death in my personal life, and my
heart breaks when I learn of violent death of others.
I would like to see us all institute a condition in which, should there be a
declaration of war, the politicians and the generals *lead* us into battle.
Perhaps we would have more negotiated settlements.
Peter.
PAUL D CHAPIN
: >"On television, Somalia has been played out as a great morality
: >tale about the ingratitude of foreigners. Viewers of TV have
: >no idea that hospitals in Mogadishu are crammed with limbless
: >Aidid supporters and civilians......
: Another phrase for "Aidid supporters" is hired gunmen and thugs.
: And why shouldn't it be a tale about ingratitude? Did we try to
: set up a puppet government? Did we go there seeking material gains?
: A few here make this man out to be some sort of patriot fighting against foreign
: invaders. Perhaps instead of looking at the "hospitals in Mogadishu crammed
: with limbless Aidid supporters and civilians" we should look at the hospitals
: crammed with Aidid victims, those caught in the cross fires between his thugs
: and the thugs of rival warlords.
The problem here is the attempt to us US standards and expectations in
places where they don't work. Aidid is a clan leader and as such can expect
the support of his clan members. He is not leading just a bunch of "thugs"
but a small clan army. It is highly doubtful that he ever preyed upon the
members of his clan. Within his clan, his leadership is a given and not
open to significant dispute or discussion.
It should also be pointed out that in this kind of society there is little
distinction between soldier and civilian. In terms that Americans might
understand, the military operation is more akin to that of the America
Indians than the cavalry. When the troops first arrived they commented
on the number of weapons. That's because all adult males are considered
warriors when the clan calls. This also explains how Aidid can field
large numbers of forces from a small base population. The Rangers were
heavily outnumbered, not a good thing ever but very bad in urban warfare
were better weaponry and discipline done count as much. It also why Aidid
is now reported to have surrounded all the UN bases in S. Mogadishu.
And finally, it's interesting that just about everybody comes to the same
conclusion - get the troops out. The politics vary all over the field
from conservative isolationist to liberal interventionist, but everybody
seems to agree that this is the wrong place to try for a US military
solution.
Paul
--
"Not all people can advance into white-collar jobs; someone's got to fix
the computers and mop the floors."
Amherst College Student '94
Michele Favalli
The tactics should be similar to those employed by British Army
in Northern Ireland. Then RPG resistant tanks (M1) may be used as
bulldozer/mobile bunkers for units equipped with such materials.
Hence separated from civilians conventional tactics can be used against gunmans.
I think that rubber bullets may be extremely useful in such context
why US forces does not use them?
Michele Favalli
PORA, WILLIAM LONG
>
>I think that rubber bullets may be extremely useful in such context
>why US forces does not use them?
>
>Michele Favalli
One slight flaw in that is, that they don't scare those who don't use rubber
bullets. It would probably incite aidid's men to try to attack more if they
knew all they faced was soldiers with rubber bullets walking patrol
David Emery
his strength. Supposedly U.N troops get cheered in other parts of the
city, but "dog bites man" is not newsworthy...
dave
Daniel Zabetakis
Michele Favalli <mic...@deis25.cineca.it> wrote:
>
>I think that rubber bullets may be extremely useful in such context
>why US forces does not use them?
>
Because our army is for killing, and not for police work or crowd
control. Our army isn't and shouldn't be trained in such tactics. Using
the army to quell civil disorder is dangerous as it is then only a single
step to military takeover.
Andrew Varvel
Please understand that the latest happenings in Somalia didn't really create
any opinions, but rather, they were strenghtened and emboldened. Before the
battle a week ago, I had doubts about Clinton's mission in Somalia. When I
told my mother about the chaos in Mogadishu, the malice of Aidid, and
Aidid's superior intelligence capability vis a vis the UN, she said the US
should get out. And that was *BEFORE* the conflagration.
One must not underestimate the effect of atrocity pictures of civilian
populations. How one treats captives tells one's enemies how one expects to
be treated. The dragging of American soldiers (whether dead or alive)
through the streets of Mogadishu by women and children and the celebrations
of Somali women and children in the streets of southern Mogadishu told the
American people how Somalis there (at least Aidid supporters) should be
treated. War sentiment is predictable in this situation.
The women and children who rejoiced at the deaths of the cousins, friends,
neighbors, relatives of Americans who thought they were going there to help
those very same women and children are not likely to be seen as human
beings deserving of compassion by those same Americans. This is natural.
Governments will often produce atrocity stories to feed public support for
war. In this case, the US and the UN didn't need to do this. Aidid did it
for them.
Those who do not know the history of the US are likely to be blindsided
whenever they deal with the US. One can simply look at the brutality (on
*BOTH* sides) of the Texan-Comanche wars to find an adequate understanding
of why so many Americans protest bad treatment of their countrymen. It is
too easy to attack the US, because the US is powerful. Americans should not
be seen as superhuman and should not be expected to rise above the emotions
that prompt others to rash action merely because of their nationality.
As it is, the massive deployment of US forces has convinced Aidid that a
cease-fire is a good idea. He knows that his forces risk annihilation if he
breaks that cease-fire too soon. For now, there will be quiet. However,
there is far more resentment in the US against Bill Clinton (and in
particular, Les Aspin, the Secretary of Defense) for letting US troops be in
such a no-win situation than revenge sentiment (and there is some...) right
now. This whole affair should be seen in the context of American domestic
politics at least as much as in an international or Somali one (as regretful
as that may seem to some).
--AV--
isab...@nauvax.ucc.nau.edu
What about those Somali killed in the UN raids whose numbers go into
hundreds, if not thousands. War is a terrible thing, but you should know that
the relatives of the American dead feel the same way as of those of Somalia.
Also in the case of Somalia, Aideed and C. know that they cannot take on US/
UN forces face to face. In the past examples abound where force does not make
right e.g. Israeli massive invasion of Lebanon which was meant to end
hostilities north of its borders, instead what happended was that the invasion
assisted in the creation of rival militias like the Amar, Hezobollah, Druze
and other militias which took pot shots at the Israelis which left 500 of them
dead, an aspect which forced them to pull out of that country. In Somalia, a
similar fate would occur, given the deadly inter-clan warfare still going on,
especially in Southern Somalia (National Public.s All Things Considered,
(National Public Radio's All Things Considered, 10/11/93). There is a need to
exercise caution and diplomacy in this explosive situation.
S.Isabirye
dave raymer
Regiment.
2.) I believe it was more than a handful of nomadic somali youth.
3.) I agree that the entire incident proves the tenacity and bravado
of the somali's involved.
4.) Next time, get the facts straight before posting.
5.) I would bet that any member of the US Army Rangers, active duty or
otherwise could kick your butt to the North Pole and back.
6.) Get Bent.
--
da...@suite.com
The opinions expressed are mine, and may not reflect reality.
My employer accepts the fact the I am psychotic.
1943-1993, from Siciliy to Somalia, Rangers Lead the Way !
Texas remembers its 2 sons, and all those, who have given their lives there.
Juan Carlos Barroux R. - CS Manager Sun Interamericana
>control. Our army isn't and shouldn't be trained in such tactics. Using
>the army to quell civil disorder is dangerous as it is then only a single
>step to military takeover.
>
>DanZ
>
This is very interesting. So, why does the US Army train other
armies of this world on how to manage civil disorder, crowd control and
on how to do police work? Escuela de las Americas is a perfect example
of this kind of training.
Speaking for himself,
Juan Carlos
Markus Kassbohrer
by isab...@nauvax.ucc.nau.
> Andrew,
> What about those Somali killed in the UN raids whose numbers go into
> hundreds, if not thousands. War is a terrible thing, but you should know that
> the relatives of the American dead feel the same way as of those of Somalia.
Too bad, they shouldn't have attacked the UN forces! Actual casualty
figures for the battle most talked about are most likely 200 dead and
500 wounded Somalis. Barring accidents and human error those victimised
during the actual raid were Aidid's guards, and those hit in the ensuing
battle were so when they tried to kill US soldiers on UN duty. Though it
is clear that someone cries for them, too, it is a bit hard to make me
sad about their death- they took their chances!
> Also in the case of Somalia, Aideed and C. know that they cannot take on US/
> UN forces face to face. In the past examples abound where force does not make
> right e.g. Israeli massive invasion of Lebanon which was meant to end
> hostilities north of its borders, instead what happended was that the
invasion
>
> assisted in the creation of rival militias like the Amar, Hezobollah, Druze
> and other militias which took pot shots at the Israelis which left 500
of them
>
> dead, an aspect which forced them to pull out of that country.
The militias were there before.
The PLO was there before, too, and wasn't there any more, afterwards.
The fact that Hezbollah just took over their part was, well, unfortunate
for Israel.
>In Somalia, a
> similar fate would occur, given the deadly inter-clan warfare still going on,
> especially in Southern Somalia (National Public.s All Things Considered,
> (National Public Radio's All Things Considered, 10/11/93). There is a need to
> exercise caution and diplomacy in this explosive situation.
> S.Isabirye
Yes, and there is need to get a *Somalian* *legitimate*, preferably
competent, government ASAP, and either give it the means to squish Aidid
or do it oneself and then leave.
Best regards,
-Markus.
MR KR COMAN
>Subject: Re: barefooted warriors in somalia
>From: mic...@deis25.cineca.it (Michele Favalli)
>Date: 11 Oct 93 18:25:09 +0100
Tear gas ("US imperialists spray poison gas on peaceful Somali women
and children protestors, violating their fundamental right to engage in the
democratic process") and rubber bullets ("Brutal, bone-breaking projectiles
capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm") are only serious options when
the oppos *expressly* decide not to bring their AK47's and ack-ack machine
guns to the playground.
Fact is, sorting the civvies from the heavies is a tad..... Well, you know...
Cheers,
Keith Coman
Daniel Zabetakis
Juan Carlos Barroux R. - CS Manager Sun Interamericana <bar...@licancabur.Corp.Sun.COM> wrote:
>> Because our army is for killing, and not for police work or crowd
>
>armies of this world on how to manage civil disorder, crowd control and
>on how to do police work? Escuela de las Americas is a perfect example
>of this kind of training.
>
at least by the CIA rather than the military. The CIA is a secret organization
with no constitutional backing, and a secret budget (not to say secret
agenda).
The US people can't be responsible for the actions of the CIA because we
have no ability to see what they are doing. At least until it blows up in
thier face.
Karsten Hendrick
> a handful of illeterate nomadic somali youths routed the best elite
> soidiers in the world and even captured some of their leaders.Now this
> calls for a sreious consideration of the effectiveness and *eliteness* of
> the U.S.special forces.It is clear that these special forces were actually
> a bunch of scared kids far away from the comforts of base life.The fact
> that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
> tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
The soldiers that were "routed" were certainly not the best, elite
soldiers in the world. You can rest assured, you misguided punk,
whoever you are, that the soldiers that were killed were a bunch
of screw-ups that are best described with the age-old adage "cannon
fodder." See, the U.S. armed forces hand out corporal punishment
to soldiers who don't effectively do their duty. E.g. some soldier
shows up drunk for guard duty, or forgets to come armed to a combat
drill.
What happens, is these guys usually peel potatoes or clean toilets.
However, they probably ran out of toilets to clean and potatoes to peel,
so they sent the leftovers to Mogadishu. Rest assured that the U.S.A.
isn't going to squander its good soldiers on as worthless a shithole as
Somalia. The good soldiers are staying home, having target practice,
playing wargames, and drinking lots of beer when they get leave. I
hate to think of how that worthless armed clusterfuck, also currently
known as General Aidid's "Army" would fare against a company of M-5 recon
marines, or the Delta Force, or Seals, or Rangers, or Green Berets, or
a couple of Abrams tanks, or some Cobra Venom gunships or.....
Karsten Hendrick
kar...@gac.edu
Barrey Jewall
[Some previous idiot wrote:]
>>Why not use tearing gas and rubber bullets to disperse civilians?
>>I think that rubber bullets may be extremely useful in such context
>>why US forces does not use them?
The problem is that the "civilians" had a fucking Russian Anti-Aircraft
Gun (30mm) with them!!
They used this to shoot down a fucking HELICOPTER!
All of 'em had various kinds of AK-47's and M-16's, H-K's, all FULL-AUTO
as well. You know, what the press wants you to believe every drug dealer
uses for their favorite armament.
(They weren't using rubber bullets, either!!!)
I say fuck 'em!
Un-ass the place and leave them to fight over the food and die!
[Keith Coman writes:]
> Tear gas ("US imperialists spray poison gas on peaceful Somali women
>and children protestors, violating their fundamental right to engage in the
>democratic process") and rubber bullets ("Brutal, bone-breaking projectiles
>capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm") are only serious options when
>the oppos *expressly* decide not to bring their AK47's and ack-ack machine
>guns to the playground.
>Fact is, sorting the civvies from the heavies is a tad..... Well, you know...
I agree completely. Lets pack it up and go the fuck home!
Bah
--
-Barrey Jewall - Network Admin. - Novell, Inc. - San Jose - bar...@novell.com-
I don't speak for Novell, and they don't speak for me.
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ They took the fourth amendment, and I was quiet because I don't deal drugs. +
+ They took the sixth amendment, and I was quiet because I'm innocent. +
+ They took the second amendment, and I was quiet because I don't own guns. +
+ Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all. +
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Barrey Jewall
>> exercise caution and diplomacy in this explosive situation.
>> S.Isabirye
Some people whose judgement I respect have taken to calling
NPR _Radio_Socialiste_Nationale_...
>Yes, and there is need to get a *Somalian* *legitimate*, preferably
>competent, government ASAP, and either give it the means to squish Aidid
>or do it oneself and then leave.
> -Markus.
There is no framework for a competent goverment, and won't be,
unless the people want us there.
If people uderstand that for us to continue to aid them,
they must kill Aidid, maybe that would occur. As it is,
we keep sending aid, and Aidid keeps killing US troops.
Juan Carlos Barroux R. - CS Manager Sun Interamericana
I have a couple of comments on this subject:
>>
> I think if you'll look, that most of these sorts of things are started
>at least by the CIA rather than the military. The CIA is a secret organization
>with no constitutional backing, and a secret budget (not to say secret
>agenda).
The 'Escuela de las Americas' is run by the US Army in the Panama
canal zone. It is mainly run by the Special Forces but other people
also are involved. The primary objective is to train south and central
american officers on how to control their own countries against
terrorists, narco and other nice guys. No problem until there. The
problem begans when you discover that 90% of the military dictators in
the region are graduate from that school and when that most of the
repressive internal agencies are run by graduates from the same school.
Same thing for the guys in the 'death squads'.
The CIA is involved in other stuff but they do not run that school.
> The US people can't be responsible for the actions of the CIA because we
>have no ability to see what they are doing. At least until it blows up in
>thier face.
Well. This is interesting. I did believe that the US was a democracy
where the people could elect their governors and where the government
was accountable for their actions. The US people is obviously
responsible for the actions of the CIA. Non US people know that the CIA
is a US Government Agency and as such run by the people elected
government. If not, then the US is not a democracy (which may be
true...).
Russians can say that the KGB did things they are not responsible for.
Their government was a dictatorship. Not the US. Please...
>
>DanZ
wolf tagger
>From: kar...@nic.gac.edu (Karsten Hendrick)
>Subject: Re: barefooted warriors in somalia
>What happens, is these guys usually peel potatoes or clean toilets.
>However, they probably ran out of toilets to clean and potatoes to peel,
>so they sent the leftovers to Mogadishu. Rest assured that the U.S.A.
>isn't going to squander its good soldiers on as worthless a shithole as
>Somalia. The good soldiers are staying home, having target practice,
>playing wargames, and drinking lots of beer when they get leave.
Yeah. That's a good place to keep your most effective assets during a
conflict. Heaven forbid they should actually have to fight. So what if the
US loses a war and has to retreat in disgrace. At least none of the Seals
would have been injured...
>I hate to think of how that worthless armed clusterfuck, also currently
>known as General Aidid's "Army" would fare against a company of M-5 recon
>marines, or the Delta Force, or Seals, or Rangers, or Green Berets, or
>a couple of Abrams tanks, or some Cobra Venom gunships or.....
As far as I can remember, the Cobras were pretty ineffective (I bet Adid was
just shaking in his boots), and the Green Berets raided the UN office.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
R. "Shrike" Tymowski, mad scientist (for hire)
rgty...@chemistry.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
____
|| __\ ________
|| _|__|_\ ______ __________ /| |
| |___ /| |--| | | |
| | | | |--| () | | |
| | | | |--| | | |
| |___| | |--| | | |
|______| \|______|--|__________| | |
\____/ \|_______|
"I bet my lens is longer than yours"
Tommy E. Stoner
Even sources close to Aidid said that he is still smarting from the battle. But, thanks to morons like this chump
>user itiakorit j osele@acsu.b
>Ha ha ha ..... Aidid show them the works. Arrongance gets you nowhere.
>
Itiakorit <--------
the only people that will know will be the ones with enough brains to ask and find out. I hardly feel that a minimum kill ratio of 1 to 10, and quite possibly 1 to 30, is a whooping as the idiot above mentioned. They accomplished their mission. Sure, they lost some men, it is expected in Ranger type ops. But, how many other units can go downtown and pluck two dozen organization leaders from one of their "safe areas" get them out. Not many, if any others. If the Somalis were so great, as the above men
tioned individual has alluded to, were they not able to totally overwhelm the small Ranger platoon that went to the rescue of the helicopter. That is were almost all of the casualties were received, not in the actual raid itself.
I think Itiakorit doesn't have a clue, but he seems to think he does.
Tom Stoner
Tommy E. Stoner
>1.) They were not US Special Forces, they were elements of the 75th Ranger
Regiment.
>2.) I believe it was more than a handful of nomadic somali youth.
>3.) I agree that the entire incident proves the tenacity and bravado
of the somali's involved.
>4.) Next time, get the facts straight before posting.
>5.) I would bet that any member of the US Army Rangers, active duty or
otherwise could kick your butt to the North Pole and back.
>6.) Get Bent.
I'm a former member of 3rd Ranger Bn, and your right. All of these sorry individuals talking up a storm on how well the Somalis fight make me sick. It sure does take a lot of guts to fire from a crowd of innocent people knowing you won't take any return fire. As far as Rangers not being elite, there are well over 200 Somalis who would beg to differ. 40+ men against several hundred fighting in their own backyard with all of the advantages doesn't seem to be a fight at all. If the Somali's are so great,
then how come with all of the "brave tenacious young men" on hand, they couldn't overrun the Rangers and lost over 200 men EVEN THOUGH THE SOMALIS HELD THE UPPER HAND BY ALL RESPECTS!!!!! Thanks to the media, the battle looked like a American failure but thanks to the ability of the Rangers, it wasn't.
Maybe some of these sorry individuals need to get your facts straight.
Tom Stoner
Markus Kassbohrer
by Barrey Jew...@Novell.com
> >competent, government ASAP, and either give it the means to squish Aidid
> >or do it oneself and then leave.
> > -Markus.
>
> There is no framework for a competent goverment, and won't be,
> unless the people want us there.
So let's give them the choice. There's quite a few African countries on
their way to a non-oppressive government now. Let's choose what has
worked in black Africa (hope the term is correct) already (the
Organisation of African States might be helpful there? I'm not an expert
in African politics), and get it moving.
I understand that time is somewhat at a premium here as if another
operation (might be as harmless as a routine patrol) goes even half awry
and another ten Americans get killed you all sound like abandoning ship.
Either we find another professional and well-equipped army to take on
Aidid then, or everybody just goes packing. I, for one, wouldn't want to
see that happen.
>
> If people uderstand that for us to continue to aid them,
> they must kill Aidid, maybe that would occur. As it is,
> we keep sending aid, and Aidid keeps killing US troops.
>
Give them the means to do so, too. Hungry or not, against hundreds of
gunmen with automatic rifles (who, living as parasites on all others'
work and rations, aren't so worried about famine) who don't give a damn
about just mowing down anyone expressing dissent, it is a bit hard to
oust Aidid.
Donald R. McGregor
>were they not able to totally overwhelm the small Ranger platoon
>that went to the rescue of the helicopter. That is were almost
>all of the casualties were received, not in the actual raid itself.
>
From what I understand, aprox. 100 rangers were in the raid. Was
this force further split up to go to the rescue of the helo?
Was that platoon and the crewmen the primary source of KIAs, while
the people at the hotel were mostly wounded, and the relief
column was mostly blocked?
--
Don McGregor | "What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
mcg...@crl.com |
Daniel Zabetakis
>canal zone. It is mainly run by the Special Forces but other people
>also are involved.
Not being an expert on covert and semi-covert actions, I don't know
about this specific example. I would be that it was started by the CIA
who then recruited the real military to do the actual training after it
was established.
> The primary objective is to train south and central
>american officers on how to control their own countries against
>terrorists, narco and other nice guys. No problem until there.
Actually, I have a big problem already. The US army can't be used for
these purposes. Civilian law enforcement shoul be for the civilian police and
(in the US, the FBI).
> The
>problem begans when you discover that 90% of the military dictators in
>the region are graduate from that school and when that most of the
>repressive internal agencies are run by graduates from the same school.
>Same thing for the guys in the 'death squads'.
>
This is the exact reason I don't want the military involved with civil
control.
> The CIA is involved in other stuff but they do not run that school.
OK.
>
>> The US people can't be responsible for the actions of the CIA because we
[..]
>
> Well. This is interesting. I did believe that the US was a democracy
>where the people could elect their governors and where the government
>was accountable for their actions. The US people is obviously
[...]
You're right, of course. But the CIA is such a shadow agency that we
realisticly have very little control. Outside of certain subcommittees,
even congress doesn't have any knowledge of what the CIA is doing.
Even thier budget is secret. Honestly, I don't know what they do. I
do know that real intelligence gathering such as electronic interception
is done by another agency (National Security Agency) which is part of the
formal military. Does the CIA do anythin other than teach dictators how
to terrorize or pay off drug dealers? Do we have any way to find out?
Like I said, the CIA is not specified by our constitution, and should
be watched and regulated carefully. It isn't. That is a danger to our
freedom.
Dr. Strangelove
>>> (National Public Radio's All Things Considered, 10/11/93). There is a need to
>>> exercise caution and diplomacy in this explosive situation.
>>> S.Isabirye
>Some people whose judgement I respect have taken to calling
>NPR _Radio_Socialiste_Nationale_...
NPR is liberal but it isn't that bad. (Heck I even vote Republican.)
Besides it's the only all news station in this market.
>>Yes, and there is need to get a *Somalian* *legitimate*, preferably
>>competent, government ASAP, and either give it the means to squish Aidid
>>or do it oneself and then leave.
>> -Markus.
As Bush would say, "Not going to happen."
Face it, what the Somalian War is a Clan War. Until the Somalia's themselves
settle this stupid, genocidal(sp?) war, we are going to have lots of
starvation. Adid's clan views, that the UN has taken sides. Their are
very few in Adid's clan who will challenge this notion, thus Adid has
very good support from his clan.
>There is no framework for a competent goverment, and won't be,
>unless the people want us there.
>
>If people uderstand that for us to continue to aid them,
>they must kill Aidid, maybe that would occur. As it is,
>we keep sending aid, and Aidid keeps killing US troops.
If we kill Adid, he becomes an instant hero. As I said before no one
in his clan will differ very far from his veiws, whether Adid is dead or alive.
It's time for the US to pack it's bags and let Somalia solve it's own
problems. It is very obvious that the UN has no clue how to run a
war or gov't rebuilding plan.
>Bah
>--
Ken
--
Dr. Strangelove "If there is miscommunication, blame yourself,
U.Wisconsin Milwaukee not your audience. You are the message."
Major: Political Science --Roger Ailes
Why that Alias? From the Movie Dr. Strangelove.
Dr. Strangelove
> Dan,
>
> I have a couple of comments on this subject:
>> I think if you'll look, that most of these sorts of things are started
>>at least by the CIA rather than the military. The CIA is a secret organization
>>with no constitutional backing, and a secret budget (not to say secret
>>agenda).
> The 'Escuela de las Americas' is run by the US Army in the Panama
>canal zone.
Yes, under Southern Command. Been there for years.
>It is mainly run by the Special Forces but other people
>also are involved. The primary objective is to train south and central
>american officers on how to control their own countries against
>terrorists, narco and other nice guys. No problem until there. The
>problem begans when you discover that 90% of the military dictators in
>the region are graduate from that school and when that most of the
>repressive internal agencies are run by graduates from the same school.
>Same thing for the guys in the 'death squads'.
Jaun, Who takes over a country most of the time? We both know it's the
military right? OK So lets pretend you an ambitious(sp?) military
officer, in Latin America right? Your moving up the fast tract, so where
are they going to send you for more training? Either Panama for training
from the US or Israel. Just because the 90% of Latin America's dictators
have gone to school there doesn't mean a whole lot. Most of the dictators,
and death squad goons, are predeposed. They are bad news long before they
get here. The bad part is that they learn to do the job better.
> The CIA is involved in other stuff but they do not run that school.
>
>> The US people can't be responsible for the actions of the CIA because we
>>have no ability to see what they are doing. At least until it blows up in
>>thier face.
>
> Well. This is interesting. I did believe that the US was a democracy
>where the people could elect their governors and where the government
>was accountable for their actions. The US people is obviously
>responsible for the actions of the CIA. Non US people know that the CIA
>is a US Government Agency and as such run by the people elected
>government. If not, then the US is not a democracy (which may be
>true...).
Your right Jaun, we are responsible for the actions of our government.
But no government runs perfectly, bums, crooks and bad guys are in all
of them. On top of who is in our government, those who are governed(ie
the people) most of the time don't care. Heck the couldn't tell
tell you where Chile is let alone, who the dictator was, that we installed.
I think the main problem here is that the bigger the government gets
the more places you can hide. Just ask Col. North.
Christopher Camfield
Barrey Jewall <bar...@Novell.com> wrote:
>
>I say fuck 'em!
>
>Un-ass the place and leave them to fight over the food and die!
I've read (unconfirmed) that "the emergency famine situation is
essentially over, due more to two good rainy seasons this year than
to any massive success in relief efforts". Can anyone confirm this?
If it's true, yes, I agree that you should let them manage their own
internal affairs again.
--
Christopher Camfield (ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca)
You sing your song, for much too long
There's something wrong, your brain has gone (The Police, "Peanuts")
Tommy E. Stoner
>Touchy touchy are we?? Did we hit a sensetive spot?
>The Delta Force got its ass kicked.
>How to `Toast' the "Worlds most elite fighting force;Delta Force":
>1) Take a few young bare foot Somali boys
>2) Add AK-47's
>3) Mix in Delta Force Heavily armed and technologically superior :=)
>4) ADD FIRE!
>5) After 9 to 16 hours pull, out of fire
>7) Presto!! highly Charcoaled Delta Force.
>How to `Toast' an Appache Attack Helicopter
>1) Take one Somali youth,
>2) Take one home made catapult
>3) Mix in smooth airodynamic pebbles
>4) Present Appache Attack heavily armed helicoptor
>4)Presto !! Highly charcoaled Multimillion dollar Appache Helicoptor
Well Nigel, let me first add that your jokes are tasteless and unsubstantiated.
Delta Force took more than they received. Second, there are no Apache
helicopters in Somalia.
Third, learn how to spell. It's aerodynamic, not airodynamic. Fourth learn
how to count, i.e. look at your numbering sytem.
Sounds like mindless jokes for a mindless individual.
Tom Stoner
PAUL D CHAPIN
: I've read (unconfirmed) that "the emergency famine situation is
: essentially over, due more to two good rainy seasons this year than
: to any massive success in relief efforts". Can anyone confirm this?
I understand that is is essentially true. The relief was always intended
just as a stop gap until the rains came. The problem is that if the
society breaks down again food is likely to be ceased both as a method
of attacking populations and as a resource that can be sold out of
country for weapons. The delay in withdrawing US troops is largely
driven by this fear.
--
"Not all people can advance into white-collar jobs; someone's got to fix
the computers and mop the floors."
Amherst College Student '94
dave raymer
> In <STXTNT.93...@rs733.GSFC.NASA.Gov> stx...@rs733.GSFC.NASA.Gov (Nigel Tzeng) writes:
>
> >>the U.S.special forces.It is clear that these special forces were actually
> >>a bunch of scared kids far away from the comforts of base life.The fact
> >>that nobody could reinforce or save them from the attacks for 8 hours shows
> >>tenacity and braveness of the somali boys.
>
> >and the fact that even elite units can get chopped up when ROEs suck
> >and the enemy is competent and you're stuck in a confined urban area.
>
> Touchy touchy are we?? Did we hit a sensetive spot?
> The Delta Force got its ass kicked.
Listen good asswipe...
1. The Delta Force was not involved in the incident of 3 October
2. Task Force 160 did sustain heavy casulties, ie, yes it did get its
ass kicked. However, they were outnumbered, outgunned, pinned
down, and low on ammo. They however inflicted far more than they
received.
3. Go pound sand in your ass.
>
> How to `Toast' the "Worlds most elite fighting force;Delta Force":
> 1) Take a few young bare foot Somali boys
> 2) Add AK-47's
> 3) Mix in Delta Force Heavily armed and technologically superior :=)
> 4) ADD FIRE!
> 5) After 9 to 16 hours pull, out of fire
> 7) Presto!! highly Charcoaled Delta Force.
>
> :=) :=) :=)
> have a sense of humour ?????
No I don't. There is nothing in the least bit amusing about the death
of any human being, Somali or Ranger.
One more time for the RearEchelonSpunkLickingKnobJockey(tm)
THE DELTA FORCE WAS NOT INVOLVED DICKWEED, GET A CLUE !!!!
1. Not a few, say several hundred.
2. And grenades, and 23mm cannon, and Grenade launchers, and mortars
3. Mix in 108 members of the 75th Ranger Regiment, lightly armed.
M-16's, flash and smoke grenades, M-239 SAW (5.56 mm
Squad Automatic Weapon [ very lite mg], and a few GL's.
4. Add pinned down in building
5. After 9 hours, reinforcements arrive, chasing off the Somali's
6. Presto, Rangers pull out, with prisoners and wounded.
Keep making posts like this, and you will be charcoaled. (Flames will do
that to you.)
>
> Hears another one :=)
>
God, please say there aren't two of these people (I'm giving it the benefit
of the doubt, it does have a rudimentary intelligence, say on the level of
a chimpanzee. I wonder if it smells like one ??? )
> How to `Toast' an Appache Attack Helicopter
>
> 1) Take one Somali youth,
> 2) Take one home made catapult
> 3) Mix in smooth airodynamic pebbles
> 4) Present Appache Attack heavily armed helicoptor
> 4)Presto !! Highly charcoaled Multimillion dollar Appache Helicoptor
>
Wrong again SlackJawedRearEchelonMotherLovingChoirBoy(tm).
All three helicopters hit in the 3 October incident were Blackhawks.
GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO PISS PEOPLE
OFF !!!
If you would pull your head from your ass, you might find that, in general,
you are being childish, flippant (sp?), and displaying your predication for
making a complete ass out of yourself.
>
> Ha ha ha ha ha ha :=) :=)
> You have got to try and seee the lighter side of things :=)
>
Ha ha, in case you haven't noticed shithead, you have pissed me off.
This post is in extremely bad taste. Everytime you share your thoughts
via the internet, your brain, or lack thereof is on parade. You sir,
are an idiot.
Have you served ???? Have you ever laid your life on the line because
of a belief ??? Go fuck yourself.
> try and make up one about Bradley Fighting Vehicles. :=)
>
No you try, I am waiting. Careful now, some of us have served.
My apologies to all readers, with the notable exception of the
LandLockedDickHead(tm) in question.
Barone
> the only people that will know will be the ones with enough brains to ask
> and find out. I hardly feel that a minimum kill ratio of 1 to 10, and
> quite possibly 1 to 30, is a whooping as the idiot above mentioned.
This sounds just like the Tet offensive. The American people had
been convinced that it had been a disaster of the first order for the US
Army when in reality it forever destroyed the power of the Viet Cong.
--
Joe Barone
m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
I'm not interested in defenders, I'm interested in hotels, OK? Hey,
look, you have to think of us as tourists. I don't want any military
information, I just want to know which hotel is the most comfortable.
Barone
> where the people could elect their governors and where the government
> was accountable for their actions.
This is a common fallacy. The US is actually a representative republic.
The people have no control on a great deal of the government as would be
the case in a real democracy. Another organization that is beyond the
control of the people is the Internal Revenue Service. This buearacracy
has its own courts that are not required to rely on American jurisprudence.
Anyone who tries to curtail their authority is immediately subjected to
an audit and they usually find themselves in these courts, usually losing,
and wasting vast sums of money if they try to fight them. I find the IRS
much more scary than the CIA.
--
Joe Barone
m...@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
As much as I like Big Joe, I don't want to spend to rest of the war
in a prison camp. Besides which, I'm a first generation Italian.
They would shoot me as a traitor.
PAUL D CHAPIN
: This sounds just like the Tet offensive. The American people had
: been convinced that it had been a disaster of the first order for the US
: Army when in reality it forever destroyed the power of the Viet Cong.
The problem with Tet was that the government had been implying that the
war was just about over. The American people had been lead to believe
that an offensive of that scale, successful or not, wasn't possible. Is
it surprising that they dismissed the claims of battlefield success? Any
policy based on deception will tend to fail in the end. Secrets in the
US have a short half-life.
Bobby Martin
>essentially over, due more to two good rainy seasons this year than
>to any massive success in relief efforts". Can anyone confirm this?
Rain was NEVER the problem. The problem always was the
technicals and the thugs running around destroying people's crops. The
sucky thing is it'll happen all over again when we leave. But I still
think we need to get out. Civil disturbances of any sort, no matter how
nasty they are to that nation's populace, are simply none of our
business. NON-INTERVENTION is the doctrine that we should follow, unless
our interests are directly affected.
See ya!
Scott J.
Mazen Fadel
This is great!
KEep it up Kids!
Mazen
"5 days before the new RUSH CD!"
itiakorit j osele
Ho ho ho .... For once we have traded position of debate on this net.
It is good for a change.
Itiakorit
Tommy E. Stoner
>The 'Escuela de las Americas' is run by the US Army in the Panama
>canal zone. It is mainly run by the Special Forces but other people
>also are involved. The primary objective is to train south and central
>american officers on how to control their own countries against
>terrorists, narco and other nice guys. No problem until there. The
>problem begans when you discover that 90% of the military dictators in
>the region are graduate from that school and when that most of the
>repressive internal agencies are run by graduates from the same school.
>Same thing for the guys in the 'death squads'.
Juan, the School of Americas was moved from Panama to Ft. Benning, Ga in the
early 80's. It is not run by the Special Forces but the US Army Infantry
Infantry School, and actually, the Special Forces has nothing to do with
what goes on there except also working with the South andCentral American
countries that attend that school.
It is true that many of the dictators run some of the countries down south
have attended the school. But, most of the graduates are just senior NCO's
and Jr. officers getting additional military training on American tactics
and doctrine. It's unfortunate that some of the graduates become dictators,
but most of the students are just soldiers doing their duty to defend their
country. Kind of like the bad cop amongst the good cops.
Tom Stoner
d.e.v. null
>> Even sources close to Aidid said that he is still smarting from the battle.
>> But, thanks to morons like this chump...
>> the only people that will know will be the ones with enough brains to ask
>> and find out. I hardly feel that a minimum kill ratio of 1 to 10, and
>> quite possibly 1 to 30, is a whooping as the idiot above mentioned.
>
> This sounds just like the Tet offensive. The American people had
>been convinced that it had been a disaster of the first order for the US
>Army when in reality it forever destroyed the power of the Viet Cong.
you've drawn more of a parallel than you may realize -- tet convinced
the us to withdraw, just as this latest -- no matter what the body count; look
at what your enemy can _afford_ relative to what a democracy can, or to what a
western power [unaccustomed to the higher casualties routinely accepted by
asian and african powers] can take relative to a clansman -- offensive has
convinced some people, or at least started a hell of a snowball, at the very
least on this newsgroup.
- sven x
____________________________________
| Hello, I am: | s.r. "sven" prozak cblanc@pomona.
| -------------------------------- | philosopher of claremont.edu
| | DISTURBED | | disorder, chaos,
| -------------------------------- | depravity, and lust. Fri18:00/88.7FM
|__________________________________|