WhiteWater
Stacey Armstrong
I would have said this in a previous message, but I just remembered it.
On the machine I played on, the pay table said this:
1 play = .50
3 play = 1.00
5 balls per game
5 balls per game? Yah, maybe if you got multiball. Do all the machines
say that, or is mine the only one with false advertising?
--
Stacey Armstrong
ba...@Cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Kevin Martin
>On the machine I played on, the pay table said this:
>
>1 play = .50
>3 play = 1.00
>
>5 balls per game
>
>5 balls per game? Yah, maybe if you got multiball. Do all the machines
>say that, or is mine the only one with false advertising?
You may not get 5 balls per game, but count yourself lucky. Most
Whitewaters have the newest pricing scheme:
50c = 1 credit
$1.50 = 4 credits
$2.00 = 6 credits
Sort of a double of the older 50/25/25 scheme. Screws people who just want
a couple of quick games. Still, it's slightly better than 50c per game.
In fact, it probably makes more money because people feel obligated to buy
the 4 or 6 credits even if they don't want them.
--
Kevin Martin
si...@ipl.rpi.edu
"I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY didn't you BELIEVE me?!"
Mark Phaedrus
>On the machine I played on, the pay table said this:
>1 play = .50
>3 play = 1.00
>5 balls per game
>5 balls per game? Yah, maybe if you got multiball. Do all the machines
>say that, or is mine the only one with false advertising?
Modern pinball machines can be set to a bazillion different pricing
schemes and balls-per-game schemes through software options. They also come
with a number of pricing cards for the more popular options. (If the operator
wants an oddball setting like 4 balls per game, he can write his own bleedin'
card. :) ) It's the responsibility of the operator and/or distributor to
make sure that the pricing card matches the software settings of the game.
If it doesn't, you should scream your head off...
--
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David B Stewart
>
>50c = 1 credit
>$1.50 = 4 credits
>$2.00 = 6 credits
>
>Sort of a double of the older 50/25/25 scheme. Screws people who just want
>a couple of quick games. Still, it's slightly better than 50c per game.
>In fact, it probably makes more money because people feel obligated to buy
>the 4 or 6 credits even if they don't want them.
I haven't seen this pricing scheme yet, although I've heard about it
on r.g.p a few times. How do the intermediate monetary values
fit into this? e.g. if $1.50 is 4 credits, and $2.00 is 6 credits,
does that mean $1.75 is 5 credits? What seems to make sense is 50c
for each of the first two games (unlike the current popular scheme
of 50c for only the first game) and 25c for subsequent games, up to
6 credits. Therefore, in the above pricing scheme, do the credits
show up as follows:?
$0.25 = 1/2 credit
$0.50 = 1 credit
$0.75 = 1-1/2 credits
$1.00 = 2 credits
$1.25 = 3 credits
$1.50 = 4 credits
$1.75 = 5 credits
$2.00 = 6 credits
That seems to be most logical; is that what is really happening?
If that is the case, then it is not much different from the old
pricing scheme, except that it costs you an extra quarter if you
want 3 or less credits. It's certainly better than the flat out
50c a game, as we have here on Creature.
~dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David B. Stewart - email: <dste...@cmu.edu> The Robotics Institute
snail mail: - ECE Dept., Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213
Current Projects: - Chimera 3.0 Real-Time Operating System
- Reconfigurable Sensor-Based Control Systems
Kevin Martin
>Therefore, in the above pricing scheme, do the credits
>show up as follows:?
> $0.25 = 1/2 credit
> $0.50 = 1 credit
> $0.75 = 1-1/2 credits
> $1.00 = 2 credits
> $1.25 = 3 credits
> $1.50 = 4 credits
> $1.75 = 5 credits
> $2.00 = 6 credits
It's like this:
$0.25 1/2 Credit
$0.50 1 Credit
$0.75 1 1/2 Credits
$1.00 2 Credits
$1.25 2 1/2 Credits
$1.50 4 Credits
$1.75 4 1/2 Credits
$2.00 6 Credits
>That seems to be most logical; is that what is really happening?
>If that is the case, then it is not much different from the old
>pricing scheme, except that it costs you an extra quarter if you
>want 3 or less credits. It's certainly better than the flat out
>50c a game, as we have here on Creature.
They do it this way instead to sort of force you into purchasing more
credits than you wanted. It's like Taxi and Earthshaker machines which are
set to 50c/1credit and $1.00/3credits - they'll either display 2 1/2 at
$0.75 to tempt you, or 1 1/2 to force you to pay the full dollar.
Jim Harkins
>
>50c = 1 credit
>$1.50 = 4 credits
>$2.00 = 6 credits
What pisses me off about this type of scheme is when you drop in your $2.00,
then find out the game is screwed up. I've played games where it's as
blatent as flippers not working. After 1 ball you don't want to play anymore,
but you've already sunk the money into the piece of dung.
jim
u...@felix.filenet.com
Yeah, don't you hate that? Here's something I devised and you can see
if it works for you. This was on a HS2 (yes, I played it, regrettably
... see below), .50/.75/1.00 pricing scheme. I put in .50, and started
the first game. I tried out the flippers, they seemed to work okay.
The last time I played this game, the upper flipper was intermittent.
SO, since you can still buy credits using the .50/.75/1.00 pricing
scheme until the end of the first ball, I put in two more quarters
and got my three credits. I was not amused to find out that I hadn't
tested that upper flipper sufficiently enough because as soon as I
started playing, it went right back to being intermittent. Of course,
NO REFUNDS. I would consider buying the first credit and firing the
ball (being careful not to lose it) ... if the game seems to work okay,
catch the ball and drop in some more quarters ... granted, this won't
work 100% of the time, but it'll help keep you from getting screwed.
Question, this NO REFUNDS policy ... how is that legal? If I have a
game IN PROGRESS and credits on the machine, and I can show them that
the game is malfunctioning, shouldn't I get a refund? The machine
promises a service, I pay my money, I get my service. If I don't get
my service, isn't that considered fraud? I understand NO REFUNDS if
someone says "Oh, I lost my money in that machine", but if I can
PROVE that I paid, shouldn't I be entitled to a refund? Any lawyers
out there?
Bill Ung
u...@filenet.com [Not u...@felix.filenet.com like the From: line says]
Nathan R. Miller
>Question, this NO REFUNDS policy ... how is that legal? If I have a
>game IN PROGRESS and credits on the machine, and I can show them that
>the game is malfunctioning, shouldn't I get a refund? The machine
>promises a service, I pay my money, I get my service. If I don't get
>my service, isn't that considered fraud? I understand NO REFUNDS if
>someone says "Oh, I lost my money in that machine", but if I can
>PROVE that I paid, shouldn't I be entitled to a refund? Any lawyers
>out there?
Well, suppose you happen to be good player... you stick in you cash,
rack up a couple credits, and then ask for a refund.. (not likely, I
know...) But that turns it into a gambling machine (ala the older pns
that used to pay out money) and that is strictly against that neat
little card that says "for entertainment only" Just a thought.. I
sympathize with you, but that's a likely point of attack on the vendors
side...
--
Nate Miller
VAX: Mill...@cab.mrs.umn.edu
UNIX: Mill...@cda.mrs.umn.edu
Dave Williams
>Question, this NO REFUNDS policy ... how is that legal? If I have a
>game IN PROGRESS and credits on the machine, and I can show them that
>the game is malfunctioning, shouldn't I get a refund? The machine
>promises a service, I pay my money, I get my service. If I don't get
>my service, isn't that considered fraud? I understand NO REFUNDS if
>someone says "Oh, I lost my money in that machine", but if I can
>PROVE that I paid, shouldn't I be entitled to a refund? Any lawyers
>out there?
It would be illegal to allow refunds, since the game "awards" you
credits. So, if you're really good, you come into the arcade, drop
one quarter (or two for 50/75/1.00) and rack up a ton of free credits.
You then ask for a refund, get your money, and leave. It's a form
of gambling, and is illegal in some states. Note that in South Carolina,
the same thing applies to those video poker machines. You couldn't get
credits back, except in some shady places. Someone came up with a loop-
hole that let the operator pay credits out, and the things proliferated
all over the place.
--
Dave Williams | "What time is it?" "9:00AM"
dwil...@jabba.ess.harris.com | "What day?" "Monday"
"Huh? What? Could you repeat the question?" | "Go away. Try me Tuesday"
<mumble mumble> opinions <mumble mumble> mine <mumble mumble mumble>
Kevin Martin
>You then ask for a refund, get your money, and leave. It's a form
>of gambling, and is illegal in some states. Note that in South Carolina,
>the same thing applies to those video poker machines. You couldn't get
>credits back, except in some shady places. Someone came up with a loop-
>hole that let the operator pay credits out, and the things proliferated
>all over the place.
"all over the place" is actually putting it mildly. The
video-poker-machines-per-square-mile factor is most easily expressed in
scientific notation. The ratio between video poker machines and, say,
churches, is about 300:1, which is saying a lot for the Deep South.
So there are arcades everywhere, but most of them are little video poker
dives. Some are just living rooms in someone's home, opened up 24 hours to
anyone who's addicted to Cherry Master.
There was an attempt to ban video poker a few years back, but the ban was
quickly lifted. There was some sort of boycott organized by the video
poker "industry" and places that profit from the machines, and the state
also realised that the steep taxes they've placed on the machines are a
major source of revenue now.
This is the same state that refuses to have a Lotto. The video poker is
sucking the state dry much worse than a lottery would.
(And yes, many places will pay off, supposedly not any more than the amount
you put in in the first place, for legal reasons, but they really don't
know or care how much you put in - they know that on average they'll be
making a killing.)
Paul Filipski
>
> But that turns it into a gambling machine (ala the older pns
>that used to pay out money) and that is strictly against that neat
>little card that says "for entertainment only"
>
Just out of curiousity, are there a lot of people who like to play
pinball for money? I mean in a non-tournament setting, of course.
Paul
--
CEDAR / SUNY at Buffalo
(716) 645-6164 x107
fili...@cs.buffalo.edu
[known world]!sunybcs!filipski
Dallas Overturf
>Just out of curiousity, are there a lot of people who like to play
>pinball for money? I mean in a non-tournament setting, of course.
>
Me and Lee used to play all the time. $5.00 per game to get ready
for a tourney. The money went into a joint bank account which was
then put towards the expenses of getting to/from the tourney.
Though I think the way we did it would not be considered "gambling".
At least not in the bad sense.
D...
Martin Keates(MSC RJH)
>In <930224205...@fritz.filenet.com> u...@felix.filenet.com writes:
>>Question, this NO REFUNDS policy ... how is that legal? If I have a
>>game IN PROGRESS and credits on the machine, and I can show them that
>>the game is malfunctioning, shouldn't I get a refund? The machine
Does anybody know the legal situation for this in england? I don't see how
this could be classed as gambling - we're talking about a game that's
_malfuctioning_ here.
I'm pretty sure that it would come under something like selling goods not fit
for the purpose sold for or something (are games on pins goods?).
If I ever put money in a pin that malfunctions I always
complain, demand at least the credits on another machine or that I can get the
credits back up later when the machine has been fixed, and make sure that the
machine gets switched off so that other people don't get ripped off.
Any arcade where they refuse to do this, I refuse to play in.
Anyway, it's easy to gamble. The gamble is whether somebody else will want to
come and play the same machine and buy your credits off you :).
(This is a whole lot more likely than the machine suddenly malfunctioning
enough to claim your money back _after_ you've racked up a dozen credits).
I guess the american legal system is just a pile of toss .... :)
Martin.
Jonathan N. Deitch
>If I ever put money in a pin that malfunctions I always
>complain, demand at least the credits on another machine or that I can get the
>credits back up later when the machine has been fixed, and make sure that the
>machine gets switched off so that other people don't get ripped off.
>Any arcade where they refuse to do this, I refuse to play in.
With some operators as stuffy as they are, you're lucky to even get a credit
for a ruined game due to a stuck pinball. Luckily the place I play at here
in Atlanta is reaaal good about that. If your machine dies, they'll even
pop an equivalent # (or even more!) of credits on the machine next door.
Usually when I make a complaint (and the store guys all know me ...), they'll
fix the problem right then and there, refund my credit and usually even give
me a few more credits.
They don't ever give money back ... just credits either on the machine you
were playing or on another machine.
- Jonathan
--
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Atlanta 1996 !! | Play Pinball !! | Don't Panic ! | "I hate it when I can't
--------------------------------------------------| trust my own technology!"
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Jim Harkins
>
>With some operators as stuffy as they are, you're lucky to even get a credit
>for a ruined game due to a stuck pinball.
Yesterday I was at a new (to me) place and saw a Cue Ball Wizard. Some guy
was playing it and still had 4 credits so I started to play the Whitewater
next to it. Hit the ball up a loop and it stuck. Got the operator, she
unstuck it and gave me a credit after I asked her to. Hit the first ball
up the same loop on my first shot, it stuck. Got the operator, she unstuck
it. While she had the playfield tilted up I looked up the loop and a wire
was hanging down, this is where the balls were sticking. I pointed it out
to her and she said something like "Hamas will be in tomorrow to fix it".
Ok. She started to walk away and I pointed out she should probably leave
the game off. "Oh no, it works fine!". Ok... About this time CBW
became available so I played it. She saw me and went to Whitewater and
removed my credits!
While I played Cue Ball Wizard 2 other people started to play Whitewater
with the same results I had. As I was leaving the arcade yet another
sucker had her opening up the pin.
You'd think she'd get tired of opening up the game all the time, every
ball shot up that loop got stuck in that wire. And somehow I suspect that
by the time Hamas comes in he's also going to have a little broken wire
to replace.
jim
--
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming
in terror like his passengers."
Jim Harkins jhar...@netcom.com (preferred)
San Diego, CA. j...@pacdata.com (!preferred)