Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Time's Arrow"
Timothy W. Lynch
finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
aligned. (Whew!)
Um...well, *that* was weird. Nice to have a real mystery to mull over for a
summer, though.
Sure beats speculating on who the damned Blonde Romulan [TM] is, anyway. :-)
I suppose I'll come up with some sort of commentary on this, but it won't be
until after the synopsis. Maestro...
The Enterprise has been called back to Earth to investigate evidence of
extraterrestrial visitations to San Francisco in the late 19th century.
The evidence consists of a sealed cavern with 19th-century relics, triolic
radiation (which has never been used on Earth)...and as the greatest shock to
everyone, Data's head. As the head is inspected (and verified as Data's, not
Lore's), everyone is very edgy to be seeing this apparent sign of Data's
death. Everyone, that is, except Data himself, who is almost comforted by
that fact, seeing it as a sign that he may not have to worry about outliving
all of his friends. When Guinan hears about this, moreover, she becomes very
thoughtful, muttering under her breath, "Full circle..."
Triolic waves are damaging to most organic life-forms in sufficient
quantities, and many of those species immune are shape-changers, so it's
hypothesized that the aliens visiting Earth might have appeared human.
The trail (by way of a unicellular fossil) leads them to the planet Devidia
Two; no life signs are found, but temporal anomalies are sensed, and triolic
waves identical to those on Earth are also picked up. Riker takes down an
away team which specifically excludes Data (a bit of "protection" Data finds
irrational and useless, but accepts), and there Deanna senses traces of
terrified life-forms; *human* life-forms.
Data finds traces of "sinchronic" disturbances in the area, which implies that
whatever other life on the planet is out of phase with the Enterprise crew,
if only by a fraction of a second. It is possible to use a subspace field to
align the away team with the aliens, but the only phase discriminator
sensitive enough for the job is in Data's brain. He beams down and uses a
portable subspace generator to align himself with the inhabitants of the
planet. He speaks to the away team (one-way only, unfortunately) of faceless
aliens consuming energy globes. He finds a caged snakelike creature, which
is picked up by two aliens. A temporal tornado of sorts arises, however, and
with a blinding flash, the field generator returns, without Data.
Data, meanwhile, awakes to find himself in 1893 San Francisco. After talking
with a derelict for a short time, he seeks a room at a nearby hotel. Lacking
money, however, he cannot get one, but he hears tell of a poker game going on
in the hotel. He crashes this game, joins in, and wins enough money to keep
himself going indefinitely. He befriends the bellboy (at least, after
remembering to tip him) and hires the boy to get supplies for his coming
"inventions." As the bellboy rushes off to collect these supplies, the
derelict Data spoke to is approached by two well-dressed humans, one carrying
a cane and the other a handbag. As he coughs his way to a possible death by
cholera, one of the visitors raises her handbag, which emits a beam that
strikes the derelict. He stiffens, and a small globe of energy leaves his
body for the bag. They close the bag and walk off.
Meanwhile, in the 24th century, the mission continues over the crew's worries
about Data. Geordi gets to work on jury-rigging a bigger and better field
generator, and Worf points out that it could be the next away team's fate to
die *with* Data in the past. Guinan, shortly thereafter, tells Picard in no
uncertain terms that he must accompany the away mission; if not, she says,
the two of them may never meet. Back in San Francisco, Data's mysterious
invention is proceeding apace, but he comes to a halt when he sees an
advertisement in the local newspaper. The ad is for a literary reception,
hosted by a wealthy socialite: one Madame Guinan.
At this reception, Guinan and Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain) discuss the
geocentric theory and the possibility of other worlds, but both are
essentially on the same side of the argument. Data crashes the party and
attempts to talk to Guinan. She shows no signs of knowing who he is, but
when he mentions a starship, she quickly assumes an air of friendship and
hustles him out of there. They talk in the back of the house, where he
explains to her who he is and where he's from (he falsely believed she had
come back in time to find him). Their explanation is interrupted, however,
when they notice the eavesdropping form of Mr. Clemens...
Back in the 24th century, Picard joins the away team and sends Worf back to
watch over the ship. The field is activated and tuned, and they find
themselves seeing the aliens Data spoke of: glowing...faceless...sitting...
*feeding*. The energy globes, their "food", seem organic in nature, but Troi
suggests that what she's sensing is traces of the last moments of people's
lives, and that they all died in terror. Suddenly, a glowing "gate" opens,
and two aliens come through, one holding a handbag. The bag is attached to
an apparatus near the away team, and more globes pour into the device. The
other alien is carrying a snakelike creature, who hisses, reactivating the
gate. The aliens walk back through, presumably back to San Francisco.
The away team follows.
The gate closes.
TO BE CONTINUED...
Whew. As I said before, that was *odd*. Now, something a bit more concrete.
First of all, I have to say I'm relieved. My initial thought, waaaaaaaay
back when I heard that "Time's Arrow" had been made a cliffhanger when it
initially wasn't, was "Uh-oh. They've decided to tack on a cliffhanger
ending to keep everybody glued to the set over the summer, and it's probably
going to be rotten." Fortunately, that was not the case. The result was
actually more the other way around; the impression I had was that they had a
show that they simply decided couldn't *fit* into one part, and thus decided
to put it into two.
I cannot agree with this sentiment more; let everything find its natural
length. However, that all requires that proper attention be paid to the
second part; the setup's easier than the resolution, after all.
Some of this went a bit slowly for my tastes. In particular, the batch of
scenes with everyone worrying about Data's apparent death did little for me.
I completely understand why they were included, and including them was a good
idea from a realistic sense; but for some reason they seemed to go on a
little long for me. (Some of it was quite nice, though; I liked most of the
Ten-Forward scene, for instance.) I'm not sure; maybe it'll pick up in
future viewings.
As I said at the outset, it's nice to have a distinctly *different*
cliffhanger to end a season. In the past, it's been either "how the hell are
they going to get out of this?" or "who the hell is THAT?", but the basic
parameters of the situation were fairly clear. This didn't do that; here,
we've got several mysteries at hand. Not only don't we know the answers,
we're not entirely sure what all the *questions* are. Now that's a worry I
can sink my teeth into. I've got a few comments and speculations on that
(some accompanied by or brought up by Lisa), but I'll leave them for a bit.
(Those who feel particularly frivolous can try to guess which theories are
mine and which are hers. :-) )
Characterization was just fine, but in pretty much every case but Guinan and
Data, there's not much they needed to do. This was a very plot-driven show,
so most of the principals basically needed just to stay in character, rather
than develop in any real way. Certainly, they all managed that; and for a
nice change of pace, Troi's talents were put to good use.
The same *almost* applies to Data, but he at least had to stretch his talents
for a new situation, which he did well enough. (The humor, unlike some other
Data shows, was understated enough that it worked pretty well; I got a kick
out of the "Ow." after he realizes he shouldn't be tossing the anvil around
with the bellboy in the room. :-) ) In particular, it was nice to see his
long-refined poker skills *finally* getting some practical use.
Guinan was the real enigma of the show so far as characters go, and we may
see a bit of the mystery surrounding her clearing up after the dust settles
here. This was almost a tease, though; a lot more questions have been raised
than answered, and I hope we get a few answers next season. The only real
*worry* I have about this setup is that there's a danger of the writers
forgetting that (1) Guinan somehow has to hear about her homeworld's
destruction about 100 years pre-TNG, and (2) Guinan's gotta run across Q a
century before that, which is most likely not on Earth. Implying that she's
been on Earth for pretty much her whole stay, if that ends up happening,
would be a mistake in my eyes. (If anybody from the ST offices is reading,
consider this a heartfelt reminder and plea; don't do any gratuitous
retconning.)
Now for the mysteries. I see three main questions coming out of this show
that need to be answered:
1) What are the aliens doing? What are their intentions, and how long have
they been at whatever they're doing?
2) How did Data get destroyed, and how will it be avoided this time?
3) What's Guinan doing in 1890s San Fran?
I'd like to offer a few thoughts and/or speculation on this stuff, so away we
go.
First of all, while it *looks* as though these aliens are some kind of
soul-vampires, their intent may not be so horrible as we're being led to
believe. Consider that we are told very explicitly, TWICE, that there's a
cholera epidemic in SF at this point in time. (Once in the newspaper
headline and once by Data, to the bellboy.) Cholera, to the best of my
admittedly limited medical knowledge, was a pretty painful disease, and it's
possible people dying of cholera might have a certain feeling of terror as
they breathed their last. Consider that the "forty-niner" who was harvested
was coughing up a storm right before he died. It seems to me that while
these aliens may be harvesting the TNG equivalent of souls, they might be
taking advantage of an existing epidemic rather than casually slaughtering
people. (Of course, it's possible that they *caused* the epidemic, in which
case all bets are off.)
I think it's pretty clear, incidentally, that the snake is disguised as the
cane in the 19th century. Just in case you missed it. :-)
I also don't think there's anything overly sinister in Guinan's warning to
Picard that if he doesn't go on the meeting, they'll never meet. I imagine
this is a nice time-paradox at work, actually: if he doesn't meet her (for
her first time) in the 19th century, she won't know him to seek him out and
befriend him in the 24th. They probably wouldn't meet in the 24th century,
because she wouldn't have any reason to.
What I don't have much of a feeling for is exactly what Data is building.
Either a time machine or something to penetrate these aliens' disguises, I'll
wager, but I don't really know what or how. (Stone knives and bearskins,
anyone? :-) )
Obviously, Mark Twain is going to figure into this a bit (and nice work to
Jerry Hardin for a much more entertaining Twain than I'd expected!), but I'm
not sure how. What I'm concerned with there is whether his memory will
remain intact. Unfortunately, the best resolution is an anachronism: in
case anyone (at Paramount or not) had thought of this, _A Connecticut Yankee
in King Arthur's Court_ came out well before 1893. Pity, as that would've
been really nice otherwise.
Let's see, what else can I ramble on about? Not all that much, I have to
say. A few short takes:
--Okay, maybe I was exposed to too much Monty Python as a youth, but I hope I
wasn't the only one who reacted to "Hotel Brian" with an immediate call for
"Wewease Bwian! Wewease Bwian!" :-)
--In the "Hey, I've heard that voice before!" file: three of the guest stars
have been here before. Jerry Hardin (Sam Clemens) played the Aldean leader
Radue way back in "When the Bough Breaks"; this is why I was worried about
his Twain, but he surprised me. Ken Thorley (the heavyset poker player who
doesn't like Easterners) is also known as Barber Mot, and Marc Alaimo (the
more suave gambler) has been seen both as T-Bok in "The Neutral Zone" and as
Gul Macet in "The Wounded". Well, regardless of how environmentally
conscious the staff might or might not be otherwise, at least they're
recycling actors. :-)
--I was initially a little annoyed at Data *talking* us through his encounter
with the aliens, but since we got to see them in the end, he actually ended
up adding to the weirdness with that. Nice recovery.
--Does anyone know if there actually *was* a cholera epidemic in 1893 in San
Francisco, or if Twain ever involved himself in the arguments he mentioned?
I'd be curious to know if there's any real background to all this.
--Guinan's *father*? This I've got to hear more about later.
--Another plea to the staffers. It's been rumoured that the resolution to
this will involve Q. Please *avoid* this if you can. I don't see a need for
it, and it smacks of a cop-out. Besides, his dealings with Guinan were *two*
centuries ago, not five. :-)
That's probably about it, really. All in all, this was a slightly quiet
cliffhanger, but that's no problem. It was better than I'd expected it to
be, and leaves a lot of room for three months' worth of hopefully interesting
speculation. That's enough for me.
Numbers, then:
Plot: 9. Solid and mysterious; sounds good.
Plot Handling: 6. The pacing was a little uneven; it definitely slowed down
in a couple of spots.
Characterization: 9. Nothing stellar, but everybody was good.
TOTAL: 8. Solid.
NEXT WEEK: A rerun, of course. Tune in in a few weeks for a summary review
of season 5. 'Til then, adios.
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"This investigation began with your death; I'm simply trying to see that it
doesn't end that way."
--Jean-Luc Picard
--
Copyright 1992, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
Matthew Gertz
>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>aligned. (Whew!)
Before I get to Tim's comments, an observation:
[...]
>It is possible to use a subspace field to
>align the away team with the aliens, but the only phase discriminator
>sensitive enough for the job is in Data's brain.
[...]
>Meanwhile, in the 24th century, the mission continues over the crew's worries
>about Data. Geordi gets to work on jury-rigging a bigger and better field
>generator,
Was I the only one who said "Well, why not just use the one in Data's *other*
head?" That would've tied things together nicely.
>Some of this went a bit slowly for my tastes. In particular, the batch of
>scenes with everyone worrying about Data's apparent death did little for me.
>I completely understand why they were included, and including them was a good
>idea from a realistic sense; but for some reason they seemed to go on a
>little long for me. (Some of it was quite nice, though; I liked most of the
>Ten-Forward scene, for instance.) I'm not sure; maybe it'll pick up in
>future viewings.
It was a bit slow paced for me. I feel that if they're going to take two hours
to tell a story, then they should take advantage of all that time and *really*
tell a good one. The problem with this story, I feel, is that we get a real
shocker of a mystery at the beginning, but the discovery of the later clues is
much lower-key on the emotional scale (for the viewer, anyway), and tension
is never built up, nor suspense. On the other hand, they did manage to avoid
the big mistake of BOBW, which is to end on an IMMEDIATE action ("Mr. Worf,
fire"), where the resolution of the action, occuring in the first seconds of
the concluding episode was *guaranteed* to anticlimactic (because they still
had 44 minutes left of show to fill).
(I did like this episode, by the way -- let me make that clear. I just
wish there'd been *more* motion.)
>we've got several mysteries at hand. Not only don't we know the answers,
>we're not entirely sure what all the *questions* are. Now that's a worry I
>can sink my teeth into.
One mystery, I think, but a helluva lot of clues which seem absolutely
unconnected: why are these aliens going back to the 19th Century to feed?
The other mysteries are either peripheral or easily solved. For instance,
it's not too hard to guess how Data loses his head, since there are bad guys
on the planet. (On the other hand, how will they prevent this? That's a
mystery, since it involves paradox. Here's a frivolous guess: Data's
head is removed for some reason (a la "Disaster"), but is lost in the cave-in.
They leave it there, go back the 24th century, repair the head that's in
Engineering, and Data gets his head back albeit 500 years older. Okay, so
that's *very* frivolous. So sue me.
>Guinan was the real enigma of the show so far as characters go, and we may
>see a bit of the mystery surrounding her clearing up after the dust settles
>here. This was almost a tease, though; a lot more questions have been raised
>than answered, and I hope we get a few answers next season. The only real
>*worry* I have about this setup is that there's a danger of the writers
>forgetting that (1) Guinan somehow has to hear about her homeworld's
>destruction about 100 years pre-TNG
Foreknowledge of this event might have been the very thing that get her
away from her world ("I wasn't there when it happened." -- Q Who), since she
couldn't risk informing her people and thus changing history/the future.
Now *that* would be some serious guilt to live with! Perhaps Data will
give her foreknowledge of this event -- or Picard will.
> and (2) Guinan's gotta run across Q a
>century before that, which is most likely not on Earth. Implying that she's
>been on Earth for pretty much her whole stay, if that ends up happening,
>would be a mistake in my eyes.
Do you mean implying that Guinan stayed on earth until Picard meets her
in the 24th Century? I don't follow what you're saying here.
>Now for the mysteries. I see three main questions coming out of this show
>that need to be answered:
>
>1) What are the aliens doing? What are their intentions, and how long have
>they been at whatever they're doing?
This is the big one. We can see what they're doing, but not why the 19th
Century specifically.
>2) How did Data get destroyed, and how will it be avoided this time?
I don't feel this is a terribly big mystery, actually: it's really just
peripheral to (1), and could be explained away fairly easily in several ways,
were we to stop and think about it.
>3) What's Guinan doing in 1890s San Fran?
I honestly didn't even think of this as being a mystery... I just figured
she was doing a tourist thing. I suppose she could be wrapped up in (1)
also, but I see this as fairly incidental, too.
>I'd like to offer a few thoughts and/or speculation on this stuff, so away we
>go.
>I think it's pretty clear, incidentally, that the snake is disguised as the
>cane in the 19th century. Just in case you missed it. :-)
Actually, I did miss it, not that it matter much. 8^)
>What I don't have much of a feeling for is exactly what Data is building.
>Either a time machine or something to penetrate these aliens' disguises, I'll
>wager, but I don't really know what or how. (Stone knives and bearskins,
>anyone? :-) )
I was reminded of that, too. Perhaps he's building a second head to hide
in the dig site. 8^)
>Obviously, Mark Twain is going to figure into this a bit (and nice work to
>Jerry Hardin for a much more entertaining Twain than I'd expected!), but I'm
>not sure how. What I'm concerned with there is whether his memory will
>remain intact.
His memory is already faulty. His speech about Man's insignificance is
almost a exact quote from Benjamin Franklin's "Dissertations," and yet
he failed to give credit. 8^) The oddest coincidence is that I just happened
to have read "Dissertations" within an hour seeing this episode last night.
>That's probably about it, really. All in all, this was a slightly quiet
>cliffhanger, but that's no problem. It was better than I'd expected it to
>be,
I personally hoped for a bit more, but I takes what I can gets. Not too bad.
--
Matt Gertz, mwge...@cs.cmu.edu
Dept. of ECE, The Robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon University.
coop@bigez
> At this reception, Guinan and Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain) discuss the
> geocentric theory and the possibility of other worlds, but both are
> essentially on the same side of the argument. Data crashes the party and
> attempts to talk to Guinan. She shows no signs of knowing who he is, but
> when he mentions a starship, she quickly assumes an air of friendship and
> hustles him out of there. They talk in the back of the house, where he
> explains to her who he is and where he's from (he falsely believed she had
> come back in time to find him). Their explanation is interrupted, however,
> when they notice the eavesdropping form of Mr. Clemens...
Did anyone else besides me think it painfully obvious that Clemens was one of
the aliens? Or a different alien (Q?)? I say painfully, because it would be
quite painful to learn that my instinct here was dead wrong. ;) Regardless, it
just struck me, with the way he was shot (camera angles, music behind him,
etc.), that his was an ominous presence, alien of some kind (I will *not* turn
this into a Dr. Who discussion--this was not The Master!--oops). I felt that
his "the deed is done" line was more of a fatalistic warning than a
cute-rugrat-19th-century excuse for his indiscretion.
I agree with Tim, I'd really like to hear from someone just how much this
episode was grounded in recorded fact. Was Mark Twain really in San Francisco
in 1893? If so, why? What effect on his career, on the city, and on the nation
do the history books show that his stay there had?
(the next paragraph was written an hour later, no continuity, sorry)
If the aliens suspected Guinan as being an alien herself, they might perhaps
"become" Clemens (however they do that, and whatever they do with the "real"
Clemens--if indeed there ever *was* a real human named Clemens, and not an
extraterrestial in the shape of a human); after all, they'd need to know if
this alien was gonna be moving in on their HumanoBurger franchise, or if her
intentions were in any way hostile or counter to theirs.
I know that that sheds no light on what Guinan was doing on Earth in 1890's San
Francisco. But I'm not here to speculate on that; the one bit of info the
episode *did* give us about Guinan was vindication enough: I am so relieved to
discover that Guinan *is* the mother of Sela. ;)
Pat
Windsor A. Morgan
>In article <1992Jun18.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>>aligned. (Whew!)
>Before I get to Tim's comments, an observation:
>[...]
>>It is possible to use a subspace field to
>>align the away team with the aliens, but the only phase discriminator
>>sensitive enough for the job is in Data's brain.
>[...]
>>Meanwhile, in the 24th century, the mission continues over the crew's worries
>>about Data. Geordi gets to work on jury-rigging a bigger and better field
>>generator,
>Was I the only one who said "Well, why not just use the one in Data's *other*
>head?" That would've tied things together nicely.
Well, that *would* have made sense, seeing the Federation's relatively
cavalier treatment of ancient artifacts (the glasses -- just pick 'em
up!; the watch -- just pick it up and open it!; Data's Brain (:-) --
just pick it up, beam it back to the ship, and take it with you to a
far away planet!). I'm no archaeologist, but more care could have
been taken on showing the handling of the finds.
--
'Verily, there be no leader as wise as the Vision!'
Windsor Morgan (wmo...@stsci.edu OR N...@PSUVM.BITNET)
Space Telescope Science Institute
Baltimore, MD 21218
hillel.e.markowitz
Guinan told Data (when she thought he had come for her), "tell my
father that I'm not finished Listening yet". So as a Listener she
is assigned to Earth by her father (or superiors).
>Pat
>
>CO...@LLG013.MONSANTO.COM
>
Dinosaur Rocker
Spoilers ahead! Turn back now or face the consequences!
*********************************************************
In article <1992Jun18.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>What I don't have much of a feeling for is exactly what Data is building.
>Either a time machine or something to penetrate these aliens' disguises, I'll
>wager, but I don't really know what or how. (Stone knives and bearskins,
>anyone? :-) )
Well... I think you've already answered your own question here.
From the synopsis section of the article (when Data gets trapped in the past):
>is picked up by two aliens. A temporal tornado of sorts arises, however, and
>with a blinding flash, the field generator returns, without Data.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Seems to me like Mr. Data's building himself some sort of a subspace field
generator... seems to be the most logical thing to do, considering the
circumstances. I need to replay the video now... I wanna build one! :)
Oh, BTW... nice job of reviewing there, Tim. I like it.
-Dino
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry D. Vaught (dino...@sage.cc.purdue.edu, vau...@gn.ecn.purdue.edu)
[*** THIS SPACE FOR RENT ****** Dial: 555-1212 ***]
Eric Wedaa
>In article <1992Jun18.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
>> come back in time to find him). Their explanation is interrupted, however,
>> when they notice the eavesdropping form of Mr. Clemens...
>Did anyone else besides me think it painfully obvious that Clemens was one of
>the aliens? Or a different alien (Q?)? I say painfully, because it would be
>quite painful to learn that my instinct here was dead wrong. ;) Regardless, it
>just struck me, with the way he was shot (camera angles, music behind him,
>etc.), that his was an ominous presence, alien of some kind (I will *not* turn
>this into a Dr. Who discussion--this was not The Master!--oops). I felt that
>his "the deed is done" line was more of a fatalistic warning than a
>cute-rugrat-19th-century excuse for his indiscretion.
I think that was done before, but I can't remember the story. I seem to remember
it being one of the "Alien crash lands on Earth and can't go home again" stories.
As far as "the deed is done" line, I tend to believe that he was YAATT (Yet
Another Alien Time Traveler".
>I agree with Tim, I'd really like to hear from someone just how much this
>episode was grounded in recorded fact. Was Mark Twain really in San Francisco
>in 1893? If so, why? What effect on his career, on the city, and on the nation
>do the history books show that his stay there had?
- Well... Gentleman Jim was a real person...
- Mark Twain really was in the city (San Francisco) at about that period of
time.
--
Eric Wedaa - er...@amd.com | Two more kinds of lies...
{ames apple uunet}!amd!ericw | Release Dates, and Benchmarks
Advanced Micro Devices, M/S 167 901 Thompson Place, Sunnyvale, CA 94088-3000
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mark Prysant
>
>> At this reception, Guinan and Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain) discuss the
>> geocentric theory and the possibility of other worlds, but both are
>> essentially on the same side of the argument. Data crashes the party and
>> attempts to talk to Guinan. She shows no signs of knowing who he is, but
>> when he mentions a starship, she quickly assumes an air of friendship and
>> hustles him out of there. They talk in the back of the house, where he
>> explains to her who he is and where he's from (he falsely believed she had
>> come back in time to find him). Their explanation is interrupted, however,
>> when they notice the eavesdropping form of Mr. Clemens...
>
>Did anyone else besides me think it painfully obvious that Clemens was one of
>the aliens? Or a different alien (Q?)? I say painfully, because it would be
>quite painful to learn that my instinct here was dead wrong. ;) Regardless, it
>just struck me, with the way he was shot (camera angles, music behind him,
>etc.), that his was an ominous presence, alien of some kind (I will *not* turn
>this into a Dr. Who discussion--this was not The Master!--oops). I felt that
>his "the deed is done" line was more of a fatalistic warning than a
>cute-rugrat-19th-century excuse for his indiscretion.
>
Do I remember correctly that the opening credits listed the actor as
"Samuel Clemens", where the quotation marks are theirs? This seems
fairly unusual; typically there would be no quotes. Could this suport
the idea that it is an alien posing as one "Samuel Clemens"?
mark prysant
(m...@ccrwest.org)
Timothy W. Lynch
SPOILERS for "Time's Arrow". (Could you be a little more careful with that,
Pat? Thanks.)
>Did anyone else besides me think it painfully obvious that Clemens was one of
>the aliens? Or a different alien (Q?)?
Um...no, actually, not a bit. Interesting thought, but I hope it's wrong. :-)
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1992Jun18.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>>aligned. (Whew!)
>Before I get to Tim's comments, an observation:
>>It is possible to use a subspace field to
>>align the away team with the aliens, but the only phase discriminator
>>sensitive enough for the job is in Data's brain.
>[...]
>>Meanwhile, in the 24th century, the mission continues over the crew's worries
>>about Data. Geordi gets to work on jury-rigging a bigger and better field
>>generator,
>Was I the only one who said "Well, why not just use the one in Data's *other*
>head?" That would've tied things together nicely.
Probably not, though I'll admit it didn't occur to me. It does occur,
though, that the head might be in rather poor shape for something like that.
Hell, muscles atrophy after just a few months of disuse; what'd 500 *years*
do? :-)
>It was a bit slow paced for me. I feel that if they're going to take two hours
>to tell a story, then they should take advantage of all that time and *really*
>tell a good one. The problem with this story, I feel, is that we get a real
>shocker of a mystery at the beginning, but the discovery of the later clues is
>much lower-key on the emotional scale (for the viewer, anyway), and tension
>is never built up, nor suspense.
I'm not sure I agreed with that. I got a lot more jolts out of the 'niner's
death and the final mystery, for instance, than I did in the teaser. I'll
be the first to admit, though, that this could be because I already knew
about the events of the teaser.
>On the other hand, they did manage to avoid
>the big mistake of BOBW, which is to end on an IMMEDIATE action ("Mr. Worf,
>fire"), where the resolution of the action, occuring in the first seconds of
>the concluding episode was *guaranteed* to anticlimactic (because they still
>had 44 minutes left of show to fill).
Definitely. That's a plus so far as instilling hope for part 2 goes.
>>we've got several mysteries at hand. Not only don't we know the answers,
>>we're not entirely sure what all the *questions* are. Now that's a worry I
>>can sink my teeth into.
>One mystery, I think, but a helluva lot of clues which seem absolutely
>unconnected: why are these aliens going back to the 19th Century to feed?
Valid question.
>The other mysteries are either peripheral or easily solved. For instance,
>it's not too hard to guess how Data loses his head, since there are bad guys
>on the planet.
But we have no idea how that particular cave figures in, or what the aliens
might be doing there. We may know the very basic setup, but virtually none of
the details. That's like knowing the good guys will win; well, yeah, but...:-)
>>Guinan was the real enigma of the show so far as characters go, and we may
>>see a bit of the mystery surrounding her clearing up after the dust settles
>>here. This was almost a tease, though; a lot more questions have been raised
>>than answered, and I hope we get a few answers next season. The only real
>>*worry* I have about this setup is that there's a danger of the writers
>>forgetting that (1) Guinan somehow has to hear about her homeworld's
>>destruction about 100 years pre-TNG
>Foreknowledge of this event might have been the very thing that get her
>away from her world ("I wasn't there when it happened." -- Q Who), since she
>couldn't risk informing her people and thus changing history/the future.
>Now *that* would be some serious guilt to live with! Perhaps Data will
>give her foreknowledge of this event -- or Picard will.
Ouch. VERY good call; that could seriously hurt. I doubt they'll do it, but
one never knows...
>> and (2) Guinan's gotta run across Q a
>>century before that, which is most likely not on Earth. Implying that she's
>>been on Earth for pretty much her whole stay, if that ends up happening,
>>would be a mistake in my eyes.
>Do you mean implying that Guinan stayed on earth until Picard meets her
>in the 24th Century?
I do indeed. If it's somehow implied that Guinan is on Earth straight through
from 18xx to 23xx, that's bad.
>>3) What's Guinan doing in 1890s San Fran?
>I honestly didn't even think of this as being a mystery... I just figured
>she was doing a tourist thing.
:-) Smartly put.
>>What I don't have much of a feeling for is exactly what Data is building.
>>Either a time machine or something to penetrate these aliens' disguises, I'll
>>wager, but I don't really know what or how. (Stone knives and bearskins,
>>anyone? :-) )
>I was reminded of that, too. Perhaps he's building a second head to hide
>in the dig site. 8^)
Incidentally, one thing I forgot to write initially is that I'm glad to see
the question "could it be Lore?" was asked and answered quickly. (I do,
think, though, that there was a tiny bit of subtle discrimination against
left-handers there; Lore, the evil brother, has a type L phase discriminator,
while Data, the good one, has a type R. Humph. :-) )
>>Obviously, Mark Twain is going to figure into this a bit (and nice work to
>>Jerry Hardin for a much more entertaining Twain than I'd expected!), but I'm
>>not sure how. What I'm concerned with there is whether his memory will
>>remain intact.
>His memory is already faulty. His speech about Man's insignificance is
>almost a exact quote from Benjamin Franklin's "Dissertations," and yet
>he failed to give credit. 8^) The oddest coincidence is that I just happened
>to have read "Dissertations" within an hour seeing this episode last night.
That *is* odd.
Tim Lynch
the trek witch
In <1992Jun18.2...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>Incidentally, one thing I forgot to write initially is that I'm glad
>to see the question "could it be Lore?" was asked and answered
>quickly. (I do, think, though, that there was a tiny bit of subtle
>discrimination against left-handers there; Lore, the evil brother,
>has a type L phase discriminator, while Data, the good one, has a
>type R. Humph. :-) )
On the other hand, Data is most definitely left handed! ;-)
--the trek witch
--
Cindy Tittle Moore
Internet: tit...@ics.uci.edu | BITNET: clti...@uci.bitnet
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucivax!tittle | Usnail: PO Box 4188, Irvine CA, 92716
PAR...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
>
> (previous stuff deleted)
>
>Data crashes the party and
>attempts to talk to Guinan. She shows no signs of knowing who he is, but
>when he mentions a starship, she quickly assumes an air of friendship and
>hustles him out of there. They talk in the back of the house, where he
>explains to her who he is and where he's from (he falsely believed she had
>come back in time to find him).
>
>
I always wondered why Guinan seems to know more about what's going
on than other members of the crew. Obviously Data couldn't keep his fat
mouth shut and told her about some of the adventures they shared on the
Enterprise. Good thing Guinan is smart enough to keep quiet and not
reveal or unfairly use her knowledge, except of course to give subtle
hints to Picard about what "feels wrong" in situations where the crew
has royally screwed things up. :)
Larry Parrish
par...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
Richard A. Bretschneider
>>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>>aligned. (Whew!)
>
>Here's a frivolous guess: Data's
>head is removed for some reason (a la "Disaster"), but is lost in the cave-in.
>They leave it there, go back the 24th century, repair the head that's in
>Engineering, and Data gets his head back albeit 500 years older. Okay, so
>that's *very* frivolous. So sue me.
I don't think it's frivolous. I think it's what is going to (essentially)
happen. Data will have to sacrifice his head to get the away team back
to the 23 century, but they'll take his body with them. Geordi will
reattach the 500 year old head, and we'll have a real answer to the
question of why Data is getting crow's feet (Brent is 6 years older
after all!)
--
|"I tried to tell you in the night,
Ric Bretschneider| That with a girl like you I could give guided tours.
AKA | You tried to tell me in the day,
r...@netcom.com | That your leading exports were textiles and iron ore."
David Griep
I don't remember the title, and it was published after his death, I think.
I also think it was written after the so called meeting with Data. I figure
the writer of the Times Arrow script has seen this short story and decided
to use Data as Twain's inspiration for that short story.
Also this short story was made into a tv version that I saw at least 5 years
ago on our PBS channel.
As soon as I get off my shift, I am heading for the Library to confirm this
speculation.
________________________________________________________________________________
David M. Griep
NASA IRTF, Mauna Kea, Hawaii
"Have Telescope, Will Slew" The above opinions are mine, not
(808) 961-3902 my employer or any other sentient
gr...@herschel.ifa.hawaii.edu life on this planet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dinosaur Rocker
>In article <1992Jun18.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu
>on than other members of the crew. Obviously Data couldn't keep his fat
>mouth shut and told her about some of the adventures they shared on the
>Enterprise. Good thing Guinan is smart enough to keep quiet and not
>reveal or unfairly use her knowledge, except of course to give subtle
>hints to Picard about what "feels wrong" in situations where the crew
>has royally screwed things up. :)
>
> Larry Parrish
> par...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
Yes, exactly. Now even her "mystic knowlegde" in Yesterday's Enterprise
seems to make sense. It's not necessarily because her race has special
powers... I'm guessing that Data told her that she served on a ship of peace.
Granted, she had some kind of reaction to the timeline change, but maybe
the actual knowledge came from Data. He prolly even told Guinan about
Tasha's death... geez... what a blabbermouth! :)
Actually... that even creates more paradoxes from hell... how could Data tell
Guinan about this, if he didn't meet her in the other timeline? Damn 4th
dimensional thinking! :)
Another paradox for you: If the crew had used Data's 500 year old head to get
to the 19th century, how would it have gotten there in the first place?
Obviously, the 24th century Mr. Data *MUST* lose his head somehow... and that
head *MUST* stay behind and rot for 500 years... looks like everyone has this
part of the plot pegged already. They use his head to get back, and mount the
old one when they return.
-Dino
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Vaught (dino...@sage.cc.purdue.edu, vau...@gn.ecn.purdue.edu)
[*** THIS SPACE FOR RENT ***]
Larry E. Snyder
>
> teeny-weeny-tiny spoiler:
>
>
>
> In <1992Jun18.2...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
> >Incidentally, one thing I forgot to write initially is that I'm glad
> >to see the question "could it be Lore?" was asked and answered
> >quickly. (I do, think, though, that there was a tiny bit of subtle
> >discrimination against left-handers there; Lore, the evil brother,
> >has a type L phase discriminator, while Data, the good one, has a
> >type R. Humph. :-) )
>
> On the other hand, Data is most definitely left handed! ;-)
>
> --the trek witch
>
> --
> Cindy Tittle Moore
>
No, no, no! That's not the point...
Data is right-BRAINed, while Lore is left-BRAINed. If you are
right-brained, you are left-handed. You are also supposed to be more creative,
less coldly logical (hmmmm - more human?).
Larry
Windsor A. Morgan
>Do I remember correctly that the opening credits listed the actor as
>"Samuel Clemens", where the quotation marks are theirs? This seems
>fairly unusual; typically there would be no quotes. Could this suport
>the idea that it is an alien posing as one "Samuel Clemens"?
I don't think so. More often than not, Whoopi Goldberg's character
has been listed as "Guinan" (with quotes). Then again, Guinan is an
alien, too.
Matthew Gertz
>>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
>>>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>>>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>>>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>>>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>>>aligned. (Whew!)
>
>
>>Before I get to Tim's comments, an observation:
>
>>>generator,
>
>>Was I the only one who said "Well, why not just use the one in Data's *other*
>>head?" That would've tied things together nicely.
>
>do? :-)
Besides, the more I think about it, and the more I read the other posts
about this subject, it occurs to me that the other head has another purpose
to play in the second part of this story. But shame on Picard and/or
Geordi for not even bringing up the possibility... 8^)
>>The problem with this story, I feel, is that we get a real
>>shocker of a mystery at the beginning, but the discovery of the later clues
>>is much lower-key on the emotional scale (for the viewer, anyway), and
>>tension is never built up, nor suspense.
>
>I'm not sure I agreed with that. I got a lot more jolts out of the 'niner's
>death and the final mystery, for instance, than I did in the teaser. I'll
>be the first to admit, though, that this could be because I already knew
>about the events of the teaser.
I managed to avoid any major foreknowledge of the plot due to my recent and
continuing travels to other research centers around the U.S. (I didn't even see
the preview the previous week, and my kill file included /time/j in both
this group and r.a.s.misc), and only knew that it involved time travel and
Data, so I was sufficiently shocked when Data's head was shown. *Believe* me,
after seeing *that* unexpectedly appear in the teaser, *everything* else is
sub-scale 8^)
I didn't react strongly when the 'Niner was killed, but I *was* very confused,
and wasn't sure what the aliens were doing to him.
>>> and (2) Guinan's gotta run across Q a
>>>century before that, which is most likely not on Earth. Implying that she's
>>>been on Earth for pretty much her whole stay, if that ends up happening,
>>>would be a mistake in my eyes.
>
>>Do you mean implying that Guinan stayed on earth until Picard meets her
>>in the 24th Century?
>
>I do indeed. If it's somehow implied that Guinan is on Earth straight through
>from 18xx to 23xx, that's bad.
Well, nothing that we've seen so far would lead us to believe that she didn't
pack up and leave Earth some time before that, so perhaps we're safe on that.
(In fact, this incident might very well be the thing that causes her to leave.)
I can't see how plot-wise she *needs* to stay on Earth, so hopefully the
writers won't make it so.
>>>3) What's Guinan doing in 1890s San Fran?
>
>>I honestly didn't even think of this as being a mystery... I just figured
>>she was doing a tourist thing.
>
>:-) Smartly put.
It was the obvious assumption, based on my recent and current itinerary... 8^)
Steven J. Szymanski
>Mark Twain wrote a short story about a human looking Mechanical Man.
>I don't remember the title, and it was published after his death, I think.
>I also think it was written after the so called meeting with Data. I figure
>the writer of the Times Arrow script has seen this short story and decided
>to use Data as Twain's inspiration for that short story.
>Also this short story was made into a tv version that I saw at least 5 years
>ago on our PBS channel.
>As soon as I get off my shift, I am heading for the Library to confirm this
>speculation.
Yes, I thought of this story too. It is a Short Story which he wrote
late in life called "Mysterious Stranger". A number of other people
around the office thought of the better know "Connecticut Yankee..."
story, but that was written before 1893 and involved a clearly human
character.
While I have not been able to determine exactly when "Mysterious
Stranger" was written (all the books at the library which contained it
were checked out of the library, presumably by other Trek fans ;-)), I
know it was one of his later works, and it involves a mechanical
character with super-human speed and strength. Sound Familiar?
.szy
--
AppleLink: szy "Apple has no idea what I am
Internet: s...@apple.COM saying here and should not be
UUCP: {sun,voder,amdahl,decwrl}!apple!szy held responsible for my raving"
Barry Schlesinger
>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>aligned. (Whew!)
> As he coughs his way to a possible death by cholera
A small point; I'm not a doctor (of medicine) but....
Cholera is an intestinal disease. The body is unable to
retain food or even water. Death is usually by dehydration. Coughing
wouldn't be a likely symptom. You probably wouldn't want to show a
cholera victim on TV.
Speaking for myself only
Barry Schlesinger
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1992Jun18.091619.1@bigez> coop@bigez writes:
SPOILERS for "Time's Arrow". PLEASE keep the spoiler protection intact until
Monday at the earliest.
> >Did anyone else besides me think it painfully obvious that Clemens was one
> >of the aliens?
[...]
>Do I remember correctly that the opening credits listed the actor as
>"Samuel Clemens", where the quotation marks are theirs? This seems
>fairly unusual; typically there would be no quotes. Could this suport
>the idea that it is an alien posing as one "Samuel Clemens"?
It's not that unusual, though I'll admit that I've never understood why they
do it. It's been done before for mundane circumstances; John DeLancie usually
appears as "Q", Whoopi Goldberg has occasionally been "Guinan", and I believe
Kelsey Grammer's cameo was as "Captain Bateson." I don't think this is meant
to support any theory like this.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
Spoilers for "Time's Arrow"...
>Mark Twain wrote a short story about a human looking Mechanical Man.
>I don't remember the title, and it was published after his death, I think.
>I also think it was written after the so called meeting with Data. I figure
>the writer of the Times Arrow script has seen this short story and decided
>to use Data as Twain's inspiration for that short story.
Oh. Oh, dear.
And to think I was worried that they were going to screw up and make
"Connecticut Yankee" the wrong year.
If the date on this checks out (could someone check?), I am very, *very*
impressed.
Y'know, occasionally people ask me why I spend time on r.a.s.*, particularly
if I'm busy being frustrated by a personal attack [Mr. Sicherman, please call
your agent :-) ]. I have several answers, not the least of which is that
I'll sometimes pick up valuable information which gives me new insight into a
show, insight I'd probably never have gotten without the benefit of this
discussion.
This is definitely one of those cases. Between this story of Twain's and
Jack London, I'm definitely learning more about this show as the week rolls
on. Heaps of praise to all involved.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
Oops. Damn, and it was fitting into my speculations nicely, too. :-)
Question: if death is usually by dehydration, couldn't the coughs be caused
by dry mucous membranes? I've had lots of dry-throat coughs that have nothing
to do with illness; is this possible?
(And Data did seem concerned about Jack's cough, mentioning cholera. And
the 'niner did seem awfully emaciated towards the end there. Hmm...)
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>mwge...@cs.cmu.edu (Matthew Gertz) writes:
>>>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>
>>>>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>>>>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>>>>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>>>>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have
>>>>properly aligned. (Whew!)
>>
>>>The problem with this story, I feel, is that we get a real
>>>shocker of a mystery at the beginning, but the discovery of the later clues
>>>is much lower-key on the emotional scale (for the viewer, anyway), and
>>>tension is never built up, nor suspense.
>>
>>I'm not sure I agreed with that. I got a lot more jolts out of the 'niner's
>>death and the final mystery, for instance, than I did in the teaser. I'll
>>be the first to admit, though, that this could be because I already knew
>>about the events of the teaser.
>I managed to avoid any major foreknowledge of the plot due to my recent and
>continuing travels to other research centers around the U.S. (I didn't even
>see the preview the previous week, and my kill file included /time/j in both
>this group and r.a.s.misc), and only knew that it involved time travel and
>Data, so I was sufficiently shocked when Data's head was shown.
That's primarily because you've missed the preview. You'd have known
otherwise. Must've been a shock, I'm sure. :-)
>I didn't react strongly when the 'Niner was killed, but I *was* very confused,
>and wasn't sure what the aliens were doing to him.
I didn't react with horror, but with a real "whoa, what the HELL is going
on now?" I think that's more along the lines of your reaction.
Tim Lynch
Phil G. Fraering
COMMENT: There are several "Mysterious Stranger" stories going around;
although we never find out for sure, apparently the stranger is the devil
or something.
The one that got put on TV was I think set during the period of the
30 Years war (memory fuzzy) and the witch hunts going on in Germany
shortly after the Reformation...
--
Phil Fraering p...@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
"These live alligators are scheduled to be returned to the wildlife
refuge at Marsh Island on April 15." - sign at exhibit at the Iberia
Parish Library. I wonder what they were needed for on the 15th...
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <2A41172...@ics.uci.edu>, tit...@ics.uci.edu (the trek witch) writes:
>> teeny-weeny-tiny spoiler:
>> In <1992Jun18.2...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>
>> >Incidentally, one thing I forgot to write initially is that I'm glad
>> >to see the question "could it be Lore?" was asked and answered
>> >quickly. (I do, think, though, that there was a tiny bit of subtle
>> >discrimination against left-handers there; Lore, the evil brother,
>> >has a type L phase discriminator, while Data, the good one, has a
>> >type R. Humph. :-) )
>>
>> On the other hand, Data is most definitely left handed! ;-)
Of course he is. No self-respecting southpaw would ever believe otherwise.
:-)
>No, no, no! That's not the point...
>Data is right-BRAINed, while Lore is left-BRAINed. If you are
>right-brained, you are left-handed. You are also supposed to be more creative,
>less coldly logical (hmmmm - more human?).
Oooooh. Interesting point. I just tossed that above in as a joke, but
there may have been something more significant meant by it. Intriguing...
Tim Lynch
Matt Austern
> Yes, I thought of this story too. It is a Short Story which he wrote
> late in life called "Mysterious Stranger". A number of other people
> around the office thought of the better know "Connecticut Yankee..."
> story, but that was written before 1893 and involved a clearly human
> character.
Mark Twain wrote three distinct versions of what is now called "The
Mysterious Stranger," none of which was published in his lifetime.
(He only applied that title to the third of them, which was the length
of a novel, not a short story.) The first version was begun in 1896,
and the last was completed in 1908, two years before Twain's death.
(Incidentally, beware. The first "Mysterious Stranger" to be
posthumously published, in 1916, was grossly inauthentic. It was a
conflation of the three versions, and heavily edited. The University
of California Press has published Twain's final version, under the
title _No. 44, The Mysterious Stranger_, and they have also published
the text of all three versions, with some scholarly work, in _The
Mysterious Stranger Manuscripts_.)
With that out of the way, on to Star Trek... I, also, noticed that
this episode was very relevant to The Mysterious Stranger. The main
character in there, No. 44, is, in fact, a super-powerful
extraterrestrial. (I believe that this book was Twain's one excursion
into such realms.) In fact, when I read this book for the first time,
I was reminded very much of Q! Here, for example, is a quote:
"I am sure I can say with truth that I have no prejudices
against the human race or other bugs, and no aversions, no
malignities. I have known the race a long time, and out of
my heart I can say that I have always felt more sorry for it
than ashamed of it."
In light of the rumors that Q is to make an appearance, wouldn't it be
amusing for us to learn that he was the source of those words that Twain
wrote?
Finally, Twain's comments in the episode about the insignificance of
the human race come directly, almost word-for-word, from an essay of
his entitled "The damned human race." Just as the writers of this
episode said, the essay was written as a response to Wallace (as in
Darwin and Wallace), who had claimed that the universe existed for the
sake of humanity.
--
Matthew Austern I dreamt I was being followed by a roving band of
(510) 644-2618 of young Republicans, all wearing the same suit,
ma...@physics.berkeley.edu taunting me and shouting, "Politically correct
aus...@theorm.lbl.gov multiculturist scum!"... They were going to make
aus...@lbl.bitnet me kiss Jesse Helms's picture when I woke up.
David P. Murphy
WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
aligned. (Whew!)
>One mystery, I think, but a helluva lot of clues which seem absolutely
>unconnected: why are these aliens going back to the 19th Century to feed?
>. . . We can see what they're doing, but not why the 19th Century specifically.
>
>mwge...@cs.cmu.edu (Matthew Gertz)
yes, we can. in fact, we saw it twice: pre-twentieth century is _the_ place
to go if you're into "soul-snatching", due to higher natural death rates and
(more importantly) less identification/investigation of "mysterious" corpses.
of course, this is not true all over the world, but i am assuming
that we are restricted to the United States for <fox> reasons.
ok
dpm
--
mur...@npri6.npri.com 602 Cameron St. Alexandria, VA 22314 (703) 683-9090
When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before.
--- Hurree Babu, "Kim"
Karen Black
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes...
>>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>>aligned. (Whew!)
>> As he coughs his way to a possible death by cholera
>
>A small point; I'm not a doctor (of medicine) but....
>
> Cholera is an intestinal disease. The body is unable to
>retain food or even water. Death is usually by dehydration. Coughing
>wouldn't be a likely symptom. You probably wouldn't want to show a
>cholera victim on TV.
That's an understatement! According to the Encyclopedia Britannica,
...the disease usually starts with an abrupt, painless,
watery diarrhea that may amount to a volume of 15 to 20
liters (3 to 4 gallons) or more in 24 hours; this purging
diarrhea is soon followed by vomiting, and the patient
soon becomes dehydrated...[t]he disease ordinarily runs
its course in two to seven days.
With prompt fluid and salt repletion...recovery can be
remarkably rapid; but if therapy is inadequate, the
mortality rate is high.
Given that the miner's cough was not a symptom of cholera, what
might be the connection?
1. The hospitals were full of cholera victims, so there was no
room in the charity ward for a old guy with a cough. Our miner
might have had anything from influenza, to pneumonia, to bronchitis,
to tuberculosis; any of these would leave him weakened, as we saw
in the scene where he died.
2. Cholera is transmitted through contaminated water supplies.
A person who is ill (especially one who can't afford a room) would
not be overly fastidious about where he drank.
3. Data's no doctor. :-)
Karen Black
Mcirvin
>With that out of the way, on to Star Trek... I, also, noticed that
>this episode was very relevant to The Mysterious Stranger. The main
>character in there, No. 44, is, in fact, a super-powerful
>extraterrestrial. (I believe that this book was Twain's one excursion
>into such realms.)
Extraterrestrials of a nature more alien than many on Trek show up
in Twain's "Extract from Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven." The
soul of Captain Stormfield shoots out from Earth toward a portal assigned
to humans at the edge of the universe; but Stormfield feels compelled
to race with an enormous spaceship (resembling a riverboat) carrying
brimstone for Satan, and as a result ends up at the wrong door, leading
to a section of Heaven assigned to blue creatures with (if I remember
correctly) a single foot and a single cyclopean eye, who speak a
language he cannot understand, and ignore him. Eventually, the remarkably
efficient celestial bureaucracy finds him and sends him to the right place.
--
Matt McIrvin, grad student, Dept. of Physics, Harvard University
Internet: mci...@husc.harvard.edu Eater of cheese
Matthew Gertz
>
>
>>mwge...@cs.cmu.edu (Matthew Gertz) wrote:
>>One mystery, I think, but a helluva lot of clues which seem absolutely
>>unconnected: why are these aliens going back to the 19th Century to feed?
>>. . . We can see what they're doing, but not why the 19th Century
>>specifically.
>
>to go if you're into "soul-snatching", due to higher natural death rates and
>(more importantly) less identification/investigation of "mysterious" corpses.
>
>of course, this is not true all over the world, but i am assuming
>that we are restricted to the United States for <fox> reasons.
Setting aside the "soul-snatching" assumption for a bit, I have a problem with
this argument. Why the late 19th century? Death rates were even higher in
the early 19th century and the late 18th century, and the Civil War would
have been a field day for these aliens, with 16.4% (364,511 out of 2,213,363)
of all soldiers killed from wounds or disease (2.3% of the entire male
population). Why not the malarial epidemics of the late 1700's? Why not
the destruction of 90% of the native population of Native Amercians in the
late 1500's from smallpox and other introduced diseases? Or the dysentary
plague in the Kaatskills in the 1700's? There are many other instances of
high death rates in the early colonies/U.S.A., all in times when deaths
were not as investigated as they are nowadays. I would think (and hope, for
plot's sake) that there has to be a reason for these aliens traveling
specifically to San Francisco in the late 19th Century.
And why specifically the U.S.? You assume "for <fox> reasons" (I'm guessing
that you mean the FOX network), but FOX has nothing to do with Star Trek
stories in any way, shape, or form. It does not produce ST:TNG, which is
a syndicated show. Your local FOX station may show ST:TNG, but that does not
make it a FOX show any more than a CBS show running old TOS reruns makes
TOS a CBS show. (I haven't checked the FAQL lately, but if this FOX business
isn't in there, it sure ought to be.) Even if it were to become a FOX show
(gods forbid!), why would they limit the plot scopes to the U.S.?
E. Mark Ping
>mur...@npri6.npri.com (David P. Murphy) writes:
}}
}
}}
}}}mwge...@cs.cmu.edu (Matthew Gertz) wrote:
}}}One mystery, I think, but a helluva lot of clues which seem absolutely
}}}unconnected: why are these aliens going back to the 19th Century to feed?
}}}. . . We can see what they're doing, but not why the 19th Century
}}}specifically.
}}
}}yes, we can. in fact, we saw it twice: pre-twentieth century is _the_ place
}}to go if you're into "soul-snatching", due to higher natural death rates and
}}(more importantly) less identification/investigation of "mysterious" corpses.
}}
}}of course, this is not true all over the world, but i am assuming
}}that we are restricted to the United States for <fox} reasons.
}
}Setting aside the "soul-snatching" assumption for a bit, I have a problem with
}this argument. Why the late 19th century? Death rates were even higher in
}the early 19th century and the late 18th century, and the Civil War would
}have been a field day for these aliens, with 16.4% (364,511 out of 2,213,363)
}of all soldiers killed from wounds or disease (2.3% of the entire male
}population). Why not the malarial epidemics of the late 1700's? Why not
}the destruction of 90% of the native population of Native Amercians in the
}late 1500's from smallpox and other introduced diseases? Or the dysentary
}plague in the Kaatskills in the 1700's? There are many other instances of
The simplest response is: perhaps they have. Perhaps they have nearly
"consumed" the available number of throw-away deaths. Perhaps now they
might have to become more bold in their attempts. That would be a potential
threat to Earth indeed.
}high death rates in the early colonies/U.S.A., all in times when deaths
}were not as investigated as they are nowadays. I would think (and hope, for
}plot's sake) that there has to be a reason for these aliens traveling
}specifically to San Francisco in the late 19th Century.
}
}And why specifically the U.S.? You assume "for <fox} reasons" (I'm guessing
}that you mean the FOX network), but FOX has nothing to do with Star Trek
Perhaps the aliens are doing there work in other countries, but the dig in
San Francisco (near Federation Headquarters) discovered the anomilies, so
that's what's being investigated.
}stories in any way, shape, or form. It does not produce ST:TNG, which is
}a syndicated show. Your local FOX station may show ST:TNG, but that does not
}make it a FOX show any more than a CBS show running old TOS reruns makes
}TOS a CBS show. (I haven't checked the FAQL lately, but if this FOX business
}isn't in there, it sure ought to be.) Even if it were to become a FOX show
}(gods forbid!), why would they limit the plot scopes to the U.S.?
Because then they don't have to do expensive filming on location. :-)
--
E. Mark Ping
ema...@ocf.Berkeley.EDU
"Stand aside, I take large steps." --Michael Dorn
"Say, that's a nice bike." --Cyberdyne Systems T-1000
"Pituita es." --Unknown Latin Scholar
Bruce Hoover,Armstrong
>>head is removed for some reason (a la "Disaster"), but is lost in the cave-in.
>>They leave it there, go back the 24th century, repair the head that's in
>>Engineering, and Data gets his head back albeit 500 years older. Okay, so
>>that's *very* frivolous. So sue me.
>
> I don't think it's frivolous. I think it's what is going to (essentially)
> happen. Data will have to sacrifice his head to get the away team back
> to the 23 century, but they'll take his body with them. Geordi will
> reattach the 500 year old head, and we'll have a real answer to the
> question of why Data is getting crow's feet (Brent is 6 years older
> after all!)
>
he is building in his hotel room. No doubt as some sort of control
device. If not that machine, then the function would still be the
same... i.e. his head could provide the precise controll needed, just as
he was the only one who could could control the .04% variation in the
time field. Just my $.02
Bruce Hoover
Douglas Alan Zander
Wait one minute, this don't make sense, why leave just the head behind; why
not the whole body? They're going to find it anyways, when the rest of the
away team come back to the present (through the time hole) they just
reactivate the Data they found in the ruins and he will have lost only a few
minutes of time. Personally, I still stick to my original idea that the
head is NOT Data's head, rather an alien whom had shape-sifted *before*
being decapitated and the rest of the body destroyed.
Cheers,
Douglas Zander
zan...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Timothy W. Lynch
>ma...@physics16.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes:
Spoilers on "Time's Arrow":
>>With that out of the way, on to Star Trek... I, also, noticed that
>>this episode was very relevant to The Mysterious Stranger. The main
>>character in there, No. 44, is, in fact, a super-powerful
>>extraterrestrial. (I believe that this book was Twain's one excursion
>>into such realms.)
>Extraterrestrials of a nature more alien than many on Trek show up
>in Twain's "Extract from Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven." The
>soul of Captain Stormfield shoots out from Earth toward a portal assigned
>to humans at the edge of the universe; but Stormfield feels compelled
>to race with an enormous spaceship (resembling a riverboat) carrying
>brimstone for Satan, and as a result ends up at the wrong door, leading
>to a section of Heaven assigned to blue creatures with (if I remember
>correctly) a single foot and a single cyclopean eye, who speak a
>language he cannot understand, and ignore him.
"Blue creatures with...a single cyclopean eye, who speak a language he cannot
understand, and ignore him"?
Oh, *really*...doesn't THAT sound familiar. I'm starting to think these
guys have a *lot* more in mind for Mr. Clemems than I originally thought.
MOST intriguing.
Tim Lynch
Hi ho -- Kermit the Frog here...
>bschle...@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger) writes:
>>In article <1992Jun18.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes...
>>>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>>>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>>>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>>>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>>>aligned. (Whew!)
>>> As he coughs his way to a possible death by cholera
>>A small point; I'm not a doctor (of medicine) but....
>> Cholera is an intestinal disease. The body is unable to
>>retain food or even water. Death is usually by dehydration. Coughing
>>wouldn't be a likely symptom. You probably wouldn't want to show a
>>cholera victim on TV.
>Oops. Damn, and it was fitting into my speculations nicely, too. :-)
>(And Data did seem concerned about Jack's cough, mentioning cholera. And
>the 'niner did seem awfully emaciated towards the end there. Hmm...)
>Tim Lynch
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the idea that the only reason they
kept mentioning the cholera epidemic (it was on the front page of the
newspaper that Data found in the street too) was to give us an idea why
the aliens went to 19th century San Francisco. They seem to feed off the
life energy of the dying; what better place to find dying people than
in the middle of an epidemic?
Looking at it this way, what the miner died of is irrelevant. All that
matters is that San Francisco 1893 is a happy hunting ground for these
aliens.
Kyle Jones
> > reason (a la "Disaster"), but is lost in the cave-in. They
> > leave it there, go back the 24th century, repair the head
> > that's in Engineering, and Data gets his head back albeit
> > 500 years older. Okay, so that's *very* frivolous. So sue
> > me.
>
> I don't think it's frivolous. I think it's what is going to
> (essentially) happen. Data will have to sacrifice his head to
> get the away team back to the 23 century, but they'll take his
> body with them. Geordi will reattach the 500 year old head,
> and we'll have a real answer to the question of why Data is
> getting crow's feet (Brent is 6 years older after all!)
Not a bad idea, but it would open up a grievous plot hole. The
FIRST thing Data would have ascertained would have been whether
the 500-year old head was repairable. If so, Data could have
downloaded the information from it and immediately found out how
he ended up in the 19th century, who removed his head, etc.
LORNA_PAYNE
Agreed. It was my opinion that the 49er had TB. (also a common disease
in 1893)
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Lorna Payne
Certified Math Geek and Grammarian
-------------------------------------------------------------
The concept is simply staggering. Pointless, but staggering.
-The Doctor (The Pirate Planet)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1992Jun19.2...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>bschle...@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger) writes:
Spoilers for "Time's Arrow"...
>>>A small point; I'm not a doctor (of medicine) but....
>>> Cholera is an intestinal disease. The body is unable to
>>>retain food or even water. Death is usually by dehydration. Coughing
>>>wouldn't be a likely symptom. You probably wouldn't want to show a
>>>cholera victim on TV.
>>Oops. Damn, and it was fitting into my speculations nicely, too. :-)
>>(And Data did seem concerned about Jack's cough, mentioning cholera. And
>>the 'niner did seem awfully emaciated towards the end there. Hmm...)
>I'm surprised no one has mentioned the idea that the only reason they
>kept mentioning the cholera epidemic (it was on the front page of the
>newspaper that Data found in the street too) was to give us an idea why
>the aliens went to 19th century San Francisco. They seem to feed off the
>life energy of the dying; what better place to find dying people than
>in the middle of an epidemic?
No one's mentioned it? Your feed's dropping articles right and left. :-)
That was where my point above about the miner dying of cholera was headed back
in the origina review.
Tim Lynch
Joe Rosenfeld
>From: tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch)
>Subject: Re: Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Time's Arrow"
>Date: 18 Jun 92 20:59:42 GMT
>coop@bigez writes:
>SPOILERS for "Time's Arrow". (Could you be a little more careful with that,
>Pat? Thanks.)
>
>>Did anyone else besides me think it painfully obvious that Clemens was one of
>>the aliens? Or a different alien (Q?)?
>Um...no, actually, not a bit. Interesting thought, but I hope it's wrong. :-)
>Tim Lynch
maybe, just maybe, Samuel Clemens is a hostile alien, seeking earthlings who
showed signs of enlightenment. Kill them first, obviously.
I am just saying this because the first part stunk soooo baddddddddd!
Joe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Joe Rosenfeld
jo...@inca.law.csuohio.edu
Joe Rosenfeld
>From: les...@monsanto.com (Larry E. Snyder)
>Subject: Re: Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Time's Arrow"
>Larry
Obviously, you humans have no conception that handedness does not play a
role in Androids! YOu are too easy to fool!
Data
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Joe Rosenfeld
jo...@inca.law.csuohio.edu
David P. Murphy
but i'm gonna have to assert my authority on this one.
>>>Mark Twain wrote a short story about a human looking Mechanical Man.
>>>I don't remember the title, and it was published after his death, I think.
>>>I also think it was written after the so called meeting with Data. I figure
>>>the writer of the Times Arrow script has seen this short story and decided
>>>to use Data as Twain's inspiration for that short story.
>>>
>>>gr...@hubble.ifa.hawaii.edu (David Griep)
>>Yes, I thought of this story too. It is a Short Story which he wrote
>>late in life called "Mysterious Stranger". A number of other people
>>around the office thought of the better know "Connecticut Yankee..."
>>story, but that was written before 1893 and involved a clearly human
>>character.
>>
>>While I have not been able to determine exactly when "Mysterious
>>Stranger" was written (all the books at the library which contained it
>>were checked out of the library, presumably by other Trek fans ;-)), I
>>know it was one of his later works, and it involves a mechanical
>>character with super-human speed and strength. Sound Familiar?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ nope.
>>
>>s...@Apple.COM (Steven J. Szymanski)
>COMMENT: There are several "Mysterious Stranger" stories going around;
>although we never find out for sure, apparently the stranger is the devil
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ yes we do
>or something.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ i will *not* give away the ending!!!
>
>The one that got put on TV was I think set during the period of the
>30 Years war (memory fuzzy) and the witch hunts going on in Germany
>shortly after the Reformation...
>
>Phil Fraering p...@srl0x.cacs.usl.edu where the x is a number from 1-5.
all right, that's enough. everybody calm down.
_The_Mysterious_Stranger_ was published in 1916, and probably written
not much earlier than that. at *NO* time is the stranger a mechanical man,
and as a thorough twainophile i can assure you that there is NOTHING
in this story which could possibly have inspired any part of "Time's Arrow".
the story takes place in 1590 austria (with sidetrips to india, etc.)
between a ten year old boy and a rather unusual characterization of satan.
it is a pretty, ah, vicious look at the human race --- let's just say that
the author is pretty sour on life throughout the ages.
i am unaware that mr. clemens ever wrote about a mechanical man.
i think the writers of this episode simply decided that Mark Twain would be
an interesting character to use from that era, based on his character
instead of any specific story whose inspiration could be "retconned".
Evan Hunt
Don't blame me, I voted for tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch).
>WARNING: This post does, has, and will contain spoilers for the season
>finale of TNG, "Time's Arrow." Those sentients currently in this general
>temporal region not wishing to deal with these temporal anomalies called
>"spoilers" are advised to stay clear until the temporal states have properly
>aligned. (Whew!)
I liked this show a lot, but there were things about it that kinda annoyed
me, and you bring up one of them here...
>Cholera, to the best of my
>admittedly limited medical knowledge, was a pretty painful disease, and it's
>possible people dying of cholera might have a certain feeling of terror as
>they breathed their last. Consider that the "forty-niner" who was harvested
>was coughing up a storm right before he died.
I had the impression that they wanted us to notice that, especially after
Data made that remark about Cholera going around after the guy coughed.
There's one problem with this: Cholera doesn't make you cough. It causes
severe and prolonged diarrhea and ultimately kills by dehydration and loss
of salt. It's found in places where people drink from bodies of water that
are warm, slightly salty, and contaminated with sewage. I don't know if
there was a cholera epidemic in San Francisco at that time (it's possible)
but if there was, it sure as hell wasn't what that "forty-niner" was
dying of.
Other things that bothered me: What the hell is Guinan, who at least
*looks* like a black woman, doing holding ritzy literary receptions
in the 1890's? Maybe my grasp on the history of race relations is
tenuous, but I don't recall that being a particularly enlightened
time or place; it seems unlikely that a rich and obviously well-
educated "negress" would've been "discovering new friends" as her
butler (!) put it.
Furthermore, didn't San Francisco have paved streets by then? And
wasn't Twain rather younger than that? If memory serves, Twain died
about twenty years after this episode takes place (which I gather to
be the early 1890's)--yet he was as white-haired in this episode as
he was at the time of his death. (These are lesser complaints.)
Maybe I'm overly anal and anachronism shouldn't bother me so much,
and it *wouldn't* bother me if these things were hard to check on,
but for heaven's sake, "cholera" is defined in Webster's!
But otherwise, I enjoyed the show a lot and look forward to the
conclusion.
>(Stone knives and bearskins, anyone? :-) )
Heh...When Data handed Jack the list of things to buy, my wife pantomimed
reading a list and said, "Stone knives...bearskins..."
--
Art forms I'd like not to see, #192: Golf dancing.
Jon Baker
> Well, that *would* have made sense, seeing the Federation's relatively
> cavalier treatment of ancient artifacts (the glasses -- just pick 'em
> up!; the watch -- just pick it up and open it!;
Something was written in the watch - I didn't record it, and missed it.
Can anyone relate what the inscription was? I had this feeling that it
would be significant.
J.Baker
asuvax!gtephx!bakerj
Bruce Hoover,Armstrong
But they didn't find a DATA in the ruins; all they found was a data
HEAD. It would seem foolish to leave the whole body behind in the hopes
that they rest of it might still be there on earth.
What they KNOW is that there is a HEAD on the Big E. I would want to
bring along the body, just to make sure.
Bruce Hoover
Matt Austern
> _The_Mysterious_Stranger_ was published in 1916, and probably written
> not much earlier than that.
True in a sense, but also misleading. It was published *posthumously*
in 1916 (Mark Twain died in 1910), and the man who published it did
some very heavy-handed editing. Much of the text was deleted, the
ending was changed, and so on. It is now available in a much more
authentic form.
Twain played with this story for about 12 years, and it exists in
three distinct drafts, the most recent of which was finished in 1908.
In other words: Twain began it not long after the events of this show.
It is certainly true that there aren't any robots in the story, but if
you read the final version of _The Mysterious Stranger_, I think
you'll agree that there are some elements in it which are very
reminiscent of some things in Star Trek.
tan...@inland.com
SPOILERS AHEAD
and a question
SPOILERS AHEAD
and a question
In article <1992Jun18.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
<some of the synopsis deleted>
> planet. He speaks to the away team (one-way only, unfortunately) of faceless
> aliens consuming energy globes. He finds a caged snakelike creature, which
> is picked up by two aliens. A temporal tornado of sorts arises, however, and
> with a blinding flash, the field generator returns, without Data.
<additional synopsis deletion>
> Back in the 24th century, Picard joins the away team and sends Worf back to
> watch over the ship. The field is activated and tuned, and they find
> themselves seeing the aliens Data spoke of: glowing...faceless...sitting...
> *feeding*. The energy globes, their "food", seem organic in nature, but Troi
> suggests that what she's sensing is traces of the last moments of people's
> lives, and that they all died in terror.
<portion of Mr. Lynch's commentary deleted>
> First of all, while it *looks* as though these aliens are some kind of
> soul-vampires, their intent may not be so horrible as we're being led to
> believe. Consider that we are told very explicitly, TWICE, that there's a
> cholera epidemic in SF at this point in time. (Once in the newspaper
> headline and once by Data, to the bellboy.) Cholera, to the best of my
> admittedly limited medical knowledge, was a pretty painful disease, and it's
> possible people dying of cholera might have a certain feeling of terror as
> they breathed their last. Consider that the "forty-niner" who was harvested
> was coughing up a storm right before he died. It seems to me that while
> these aliens may be harvesting the TNG equivalent of souls, they might be
> taking advantage of an existing epidemic rather than casually slaughtering
> people. (Of course, it's possible that they *caused* the epidemic, in which
> case all bets are off.)
Finally, my question. Doesn't part of this story have some similarities with
the movie "Lifeforce" where Patrick Stewart is a psycologist at some mental
hospital outside of London? The story line is that vampires are an alien
race which, every so often, visits Earth and generates a lot of mayhem via a
plague-like catastrophe, and sucks up a bunch of souls or 'lifeforces' and
stores them for future consumption. If this has been brought up before,
sorry for the bandwidth waste.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
John Tanski >< "Work. Worry. Consume. Die.
ISFPC - R & D Dept >< It's a wonderful life."
(tan...@inland.com) >< Lippy (Bill Griffith)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mark Runyan
>>
>>>mwge...@cs.cmu.edu (Matthew Gertz) wrote:
>>>One mystery, I think, but a helluva lot of clues which seem absolutely
>>>unconnected: why are these aliens going back to the 19th Century to feed?
>>to go if you're into "soul-snatching", due to higher natural death rates and
>>(more importantly) less identification/investigation of "mysterious" corpses.
>this argument. Why the late 19th century? Death rates were even higher in
>the early 19th century and the late 18th century, and the Civil War would
Civil Way would have the problem of having to sneak through the lines
from time to time, putting them in danger. Of course, I'm not sure that
the same is true for the era of the Black Plague in London...
Mark Runyan {r.a.s. random rationalizer}
Dan Harkless
There was that great one where Picard has experiences in the dying world, then
a rerun (I forgot which), then what...? Email response is preferred. Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan Harkless | "The sore in my soul |
| d...@cafws1.eng.uci.edu | The mark in my heart -> Front 242, |
| dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu | Her acid reign..." Tragedy >For You< |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dar Korra'ti
tell...
In article <1992Jun19....@sco.COM> ev...@sco.COM (Evan Hunt) writes:
>Other things that bothered me: What the hell is Guinan, who at least
>*looks* like a black woman, doing holding ritzy literary receptions
>in the 1890's?
Okay, I've been waiting for somebody else to pipe in on this, but
nobody has, so...
Progress twoards equal rights in the United States has _not_ been
anything remotely like a smooth, climbing line, moving continually towards
equality-in-law. It has had many jumps forward, followed by just as many
jumps back.
It has also not been evenly distributed, and still isn't. (Try being
black and joining an all-white country club in North Carolina sometime,
just for example. I pick on North Carolina because I know of one which
requires a photograph before you can _ask_ to be considered - and, as they
would no doubt say "entirely by coincidence," there is currently no and
has never been a black member of the club).
However, to the concerns of the episode;
Where you were and when you were had a strong effect upon the
reception you, as a black person, would get in the late 19th and
early 20th centuries. In the very early part of the century in Chicago,
for example, there were no segregation laws, and the tiny black population
had very few troubles with the white majority, interacting with them at
public facilities, etc. (This from a documentary on the subject; most of
my sources here are PBS and history classes. :-) ) However, as the black
population grew, they became a visible "threat" - i.e., an impact upon
the job market - and segregation laws began appearing.
This pattern repeats in multiple locations.
Also, there were civil rights movements long before the 1960's.
Marchers in Louisville, Kentucky ended segregated public transportation
in 1911, just as one example.
So it didn't strike me as being at all impossible - unlikely and
_very_ difficult, but we are talking abiut Guinan here, after all - that
a black person could make a name for herself in the environment of turn-of-
the-century San Francisco. The old Klu Klux Klan legends were dying out,
and had yet to be revived by _Birth of a Nation_; the Klan itself and the
various unorganized hate groups had virtually died out and not yet begun
their infamous revivals of the 20's and 30's. Plus - and this is somewhat
speculation on my part, as I have no hard numbers - I strongly suspect that
there were too few black people in San Francisco to constitute an economic
threat. They would have been oddities, curiosities, perhaps, but probably
not actively hated. (They would have had the Chinese for that. :-( )
So I think it's possible.
In a semi-related topic, someone asked why the San Francisco people
of the last 19th century didn't think Data was Chinese. Data looks _nothing_
like a Chinese person, and the people of San Francisco would certainly have
known what real Chinese people looked like.
France, on the other hand, would have been a mystery land across both
a continent _and_ an ocean - too far away to even contemplate, for most.
And besides, as someone else pointed out - it's a really great conehead
reference. I nearly fell over laughing. :-)
Somewhere between two and ten cents,
- R'ykandar.
NEW ADDRESS BELOW!
--
R'ykandar Korra'ti | LOW ORBIT PUBLICATIONS
da...@microsoft.com | polari!lorbit!pho...@uunet.uu.net
Chris No problemo Seaman
< wmo...@stsci.edu (Windsor A. Morgan) writes:
<
< > Well, that *would* have made sense, seeing the Federation's relatively
< > cavalier treatment of ancient artifacts (the glasses -- just pick 'em
< > up!; the watch -- just pick it up and open it!;
<
< Something was written in the watch - I didn't record it, and missed it.
< Can anyone relate what the inscription was? I had this feeling that it
< would be significant.
There were initials (I believe they were 'S. L. C.', for Samuel L.
Clemens), below which it read 'With Love', followed by a date
(November 1893?).
That was the best I could make out on my copy of the episode.
Regards,
Chris
--
Chris "No problemo" Seaman | "Common sense would dictate that one only
cse...@gateway.sequent.com <or> | speak about what one understands. That's
...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | the problem with common sense; it's far
The Home of the Killer Smiley | too uncommon." -- D. Haynie
Doug Lynch
Concerning the old 49er and his coughing spat.
You first see the old man not looking real perky, sitting on a box or crate
and coughing alot. Thoughts were that this guy wasn't going to make it.
Now along come two finely dressed individuals, one with a cane and another
with a suitcase. I don't have a tape of this show (take it easy, now) so
I can't go back and verify what I'm going to say next.
I vaguely recall that the instant the two people showed up next to the
49er, didn't the 49er (in-between coughs) start shouting NO, NO, NO and just
acting deathly afraid (sorry!) of the sight of the people with the cane and
the suitcase? And didn't someone else on the net also say that the 49er had
been injured or something in a cave?
Well, then the humanized aliens sucked the life out of him and left.
Why did the 49er seem to know what was going to happen to him? And what's
the deal with him and the cave?
Was the 49er really an alien himself? Something was strange about the way
the 49er acted when the two people showed up.
Doug Lynch
Hewlett Packard
303-679-2855
Ken Arnold
>waves identical to those on Earth are also picked up. Riker takes down an
>away team which specifically excludes Data (a bit of "protection" Data finds
>irrational and useless, but accepts) ...
There are two conflicting views of time in this episode. One is the
one Data expresses: "It has happened so it will happen". Time is a
single flow with no changes. The other is Picard: "The 19th century is
under attack!". Time is mutable. The second view is the common ST
one. Why is Data able to convince himself and others of the other
view, to the extent that Picard accepts it and sends him to a very high
risk of death?
Ken
Timothy W. Lynch
>Spoilers:
>There are two conflicting views of time in this episode. One is the
>one Data expresses: "It has happened so it will happen". Time is a
>single flow with no changes. The other is Picard: "The 19th century is
>under attack!". Time is mutable. The second view is the common ST
>one. Why is Data able to convince himself and others of the other
>view, to the extent that Picard accepts it and sends him to a very high
>risk of death?
I don't think he convinced anyone else of it. He convinced himself of it
because of the reasons he implied to Geordi in 10-Forward: the certainty
of death brings him closer to his goal of humanity.
Who says androids can't rationalize? :-)
Tim Lynch
John Grohol
Spoilers below....
Is it just me, or does warping around in time seem kind of
contradictory. I mean, think about it. If they leave Data's
head back in time, then Data's creator couldn't have
created Data, because he has no head. Or let me put it
more clearly:
In the 24th century, before they went back, there were
2 heads: Data's own and the one they found. That means,
that including Lore's head, there are *3* android heads
now in the universe, in the 24th century.
If Data were to lose his head to get the others back,
they could go back to earth and dig up his head AGAIN,
because it would NOT be on the Enterprise. There are
*3* heads and there's no escaping that sum now. Time
doesn't make heads come and disappear, or any physical
object, for that matter. They're going to have to
explain this EXTRA head somehow. Just because you
poof around in time doesn't mean you generate extra
body parts...
This is the part I don't understand. Data was swearing
up and down on the E that the 500 year old head was
his. YET IT CAN'T BE! He wouldn't be able to see it
because he would have no head at the present time.
I think the writers goofed on this one and got themselves
over their head, so to speak... ;-)
--
"i've seen kingdoms blow like ashes :: John M. Grohol, M.S.
in the winds of change :: Center for Psychological Studies
but the power of truth Indigo :: Nova Univ, Ft. Lauderdale, FL
is the fuel for the flame..." - Girls :: gro...@novavax.nova.edu
ron c carman
>Spoilers below....
>Is it just me, or does warping around in time seem kind of
>contradictory. I mean, think about it. If they leave Data's
>head back in time, then Data's creator couldn't have
>created Data, because he has no head. Or let me put it
>more clearly:
You are right that there are paradoxes involved with time travel.
But you are confusing yourself unnecessarily.
>In the 24th century, before they went back, there were
>2 heads: Data's own and the one they found. That means,
>that including Lore's head, there are *3* android heads
>now in the universe, in the 24th century.
Yes, that's true...
>If Data were to lose his head to get the others back,
>they could go back to earth and dig up his head AGAIN,
>because it would NOT be on the Enterprise. There are
>*3* heads and there's no escaping that sum now. Time
>doesn't make heads come and disappear, or any physical
>object, for that matter. They're going to have to
>explain this EXTRA head somehow. Just because you
>poof around in time doesn't mean you generate extra
>body parts...
No, eventually one head will cease to exist, and
we will once again have only two heads -- Data's
and Lore's...
>This is the part I don't understand. Data was swearing
>up and down on the E that the 500 year old head was
>his. YET IT CAN'T BE! He wouldn't be able to see it
>because he would have no head at the present time.
Look at it this way:
_______________________F______________________"C"_______
/
"B" / "A"
------------------------------------D----------------------"C"------------
^1893 / ^237?
/
---------------------------------E--------------------------
The line labeled D is the unaltered time-line of the TNG universe
before "Time's Arrow". At point "C", Data's head is found in the cave,
and for a time, there are indeed three android heads in existance...
But at point "A" Data is sent back in time to 1893, and once again
there are only two heads in the current time-line: Data's and Lore's.
(Line E represents Data's journey into the past, not any alternative
time-line...)
At point "B", some indeterminate time after Data's arrival in 1893,
he loses his head ( :) ), thus creating the new time-line F. If Picard
and crew manage to bring Data back alive (and with his head intact), a
new F time-line is created which has no point "C", F would then merge
with D at some poit "G", and the 500 year-old head on the Enterprise
would vanish... (Some would say that D is erased, with F taking its
place, instead of the two merging; either way, the results are the
same: Only two heads remain in existence).
>I think the writers goofed on this one and got themselves
>over their head, so to speak... ;-)
No, I don't think so. They could easily do so in the second part
of the cliffhanger, however. We'll have to wait and see.
RC Carman
--
/=======================================================================\
| chronos || 'What you want is irrelevant. |
|rcca...@ukpr.uky.edu || What you have chosen is at hand.' |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sandra guzdek
>
>Spoilers below....
>
>
>
>Is it just me, or does warping around in time seem kind of
>contradictory. I mean, think about it. If they leave Data's
>head back in time, then Data's creator couldn't have
>created Data, because he has no head. Or let me put it
>more clearly:
you don't seem to understand the time-loop thing. data's creator creates
data in the 24th (?) century. this is when he makes everything from
scratch, so of course data will have his head. data does his thing, lore
does his thing, there are 2 heads. they find data's head (the third one) from
an archaelogical dig. data is able to examine it because for him, he hasn't
experienced losing his head yet, even though it has been found.
he will lose it at some later time, after he travels to the past, and it is
found in the future.
>This is the part I don't understand. Data was swearing
>up and down on the E that the 500 year old head was
>his. YET IT CAN'T BE! He wouldn't be able to see it
>because he would have no head at the present time.
sure he would, because, he hasn't gone back in time yet and lost it. a time
line might suffice (certainly NOT to scale):
loses head<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
^
start>>>>>>>>find head & go back in time^
------------------------------------------------------------------
^1893 ^ ^2463 (or whatever the year is)
^ Data's creation
so even though 1893 chronologically happens first, data's creation is the
start for data.
presumably, data will avoid losing his head and get back to the future (pun
intended), or data will lose his head in getting back to the future and the
incredibly bright engineers of the starship enterprise will have to find a
way to make the old one work.... unless brent is planning on retiring from
the role... :)
>I think the writers goofed on this one and got themselves
>over their head, so to speak... ;-)
i suggest you watch one of the back to the future flicks, as corny as they
are. they explain this time thing pretty simply. i mean if *I* can
understand it... ;)
sandra g. * illustrator-for-hire, buffalo ny * v130...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
"I would like some hot chocolate, n'est pas?"
"Oh I don't think we have n'est pas, sir. Only Hershey's."
--- Neil Simon's _Murder by Death_
Iain Robert Asplin
>
>Spoilers below....
>
>
>
>Is it just me, or does warping around in time seem kind of
>contradictory. I mean, think about it. If they leave Data's
>head back in time, then Data's creator couldn't have
>created Data, because he has no head. Or let me put it
>more clearly:
>
>In the 24th century, before they went back, there were
>2 heads: Data's own and the one they found. That means,
>that including Lore's head, there are *3* android heads
>now in the universe, in the 24th century.
>
>If Data were to lose his head to get the others back,
>they could go back to earth and dig up his head AGAIN,
>because it would NOT be on the Enterprise. There are
Why in time/space would they want to dig up another head?
And how could they possibly dig up the head AGAIN, since they've already done
it? When they return to their time zone, it should be at the point where
they left (or a little afterwards), after he head had already been dug up.
>*3* heads and there's no escaping that sum now. Time
>doesn't make heads come and disappear, or any physical
>object, for that matter. They're going to have to
>explain this EXTRA head somehow. Just because you
>poof around in time doesn't mean you generate extra
>body parts...
So what if there are 3 heads now? Two of them are essentially the
same head. It's called temporal duplication, and in most science fiction,
it leads to all sorts of possible paradoxes that seem quite logical to
me, but Star Trek completely ignores said paradoxes when people meet
themselves (see Picard in "Time Squared" for another example).
>This is the part I don't understand. Data was swearing
>up and down on the E that the 500 year old head was
>his. YET IT CAN'T BE! He wouldn't be able to see it
>because he would have no head at the present time.
>
>I think the writers goofed on this one and got themselves
>over their head, so to speak... ;-)
>
No. No real goofs I can think of, other than the Data-meeting-himself
one, but for that one I am borrowing from another series, and the second
head was inert anyway, so they couldn't affect each other in ways that
would initiate utterly disastrous paradoxes. Small ones, perhaps though.
Kenton Campbell
>
> This is the part I don't understand. Data was swearing
> up and down on the E that the 500 year old head was
> his. YET IT CAN'T BE! He wouldn't be able to see it
> because he would have no head at the present time.
I am *SO* sick of stupid people who don't understand the basics of
time travel. *Sheesh*! Must we get idiotic drivel like this every
time that time travel comes up in a show? (YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE
was a prime example.)
Data's head was built by Suung in the early 24th century, served on
the Enterprise (along with the rest of his body) until TIME'S ARROW,
and then he went back to the 19th century where he (presumably) lost
his head. It remained underground for 500 years, to be found in the
late 24th century.
There is *NO* contradiction here. Get a clue!
--
-- Kenton Campbell -------------------------------- Ball State University --
---- 01klca...@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu -------------------------- Muncie, IN --
sandra guzdek
>
>I am *SO* sick of stupid people who don't understand the basics of
>time travel. *Sheesh*! Must we get idiotic drivel like this every
>time that time travel comes up in a show? (YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE
>was a prime example.)
pardon us for not being a deity like yourself. all it takes is a little
patience and explanation. nothing gets solved if you bitch and moan. and
god knows, time travel is SO easy to understand, we do it ALL the time...
>Data's head was built by Suung in the early 24th century, served on
^^^^^
that would be "Soong", oh wise one.
>There is *NO* contradiction here. Get a clue!
i guess we all should be a little more like you, huh?
<FLAME OFF>
Alan Earhart
One of the fun results of time travel movies, tv episodes, books, etc., is the
paradox it usually creates and being able to RATIONALLY discuss it. Have you
thought of limiting your daily caffeine intake? Relax and cool your jets.
Alan Earhart ;-)
00tdbo...@bsu-ucs.uucp
> In article <1992Jun30....@bsu-ucs.uucp>, 01klca...@bsu-ucs.uucp (Kenton "Time-Travel" Campbell) writes...
>>
>>I am *SO* sick of stupid people who don't understand the basics of
>>time travel. *Sheesh*! Must we get idiotic drivel like this every
>>time that time travel comes up in a show? (YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE
>>was a prime example.)
Oh, give me a break! That's good communication...
>
> pardon us for not being a deity like yourself. all it takes is a little
> patience and explanation. nothing gets solved if you bitch and moan. and
> god knows, time travel is SO easy to understand, we do it ALL the time...
>
>>Data's head was built by Suung in the early 24th century, served on
> ^^^^^
> that would be "Soong", oh wise one.
I should think if one knows all about time travel, one would know this... After
all, one could travel there and ask the scientist how to spell his name. Must
we have such "idiotic drivel"...?
>
>>There is *NO* contradiction here. Get a clue!
>
> i guess we all should be a little more like you, huh?
> <FLAME OFF>
{FLAME BACK ON}
Yeah, we should all be petty inconsiderate hatefull AND egotistical... {Pardon
me, but I know this guy, and he's not worth talking to.} PLEASE, DON'T BE LIKE
HIM! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
{FLAME OFF AGAIN}
--
.___.........................................................................__.
: /ed Boardman - Ball State University :00TDBo...@Leo.BSUvc.BSU.edu __///:
:1203 W. 1st St. Apt. 3 Muncie, IN 47305 :00TDBo...@BSUVAX1.bitnet \XX/ :
:.........................................:..............................AMIGA.:
Masahiro Arakawa
of Data's heads in the 24th century, while others complain about the first
group's lack of understanding. I don't claim to understand this situation all
that well, and I definitely am not chastising those who have a problem with
the two heads in one time on the Enterprise. I just want to put in my 2 cents
worth about this topic.
Maybe it'll help if everyone thought of it this way.
Now, I presume you all saw the episode of Time's Arrow. So, I'll save you all
the synopsis of what happened on TV; i.e. the order in which things occurred on
the show. Now, imagine that you were a being who lived forever and could see
all (sort of like God or something). This is what you'd see...
In 1893, you'd see Data suddenly appear on the street.
Some time later, his head is removed from his body in San Francisco.
A few centuries later, Dr. Soong creates Data.
Some time later, they find Data's head.
We all know what happens next.
Now, I want to ask you all about a little something I've thought of since
watching this episode and the Back to the Future series.
I imagined, barring all time travel, that there would be a single time line -
events happened as you and I would expect them to. Nothing in the future could
affect something in the past.
Now, let's say someone goes to the past, and affects it (talks to people about
the future, whatever). In that case, this time line would then branch off from
the original one at the point where this time traveler affected the past. From
then on, history from that point on would not be the same (although if the
effect was very minute, like saying to someone, "you'll clip your toenails
later tonight, and nick yourself", it may not have noticeable effects on the
future).
With this in mind, I'd bet that if Dr.Soong were to ever get his hands on
Data's head (or get substantial information about Data's head) before he
started working on Data, Data (and Lore) would be different (maybe more
advanced in some fashion).
Now, I didn't come up with this branching timeline theory myself. I think I
saw Doc Brown explain it to Marty McFly on a chalkboard in Back to the Future
II.
Anyway, chew on that for a while, Star Trek fans.
Masahiro Arakawa
ps - please don't flood my e-mailbox with complaints.
Stephen Dennison
>In article <38...@novavax.UUCP>, gro...@novavax.UUCP (John Grohol) writes:
>>
>> This is the part I don't understand. Data was swearing
>> up and down on the E that the 500 year old head was
>> his. YET IT CAN'T BE! He wouldn't be able to see it
>> because he would have no head at the present time.
>
>I am *SO* sick of stupid people who don't understand the basics of
>time travel. *Sheesh*!
Well, y'know, maybe the guy hasn't read all of the scientific papers
written on the subjects or, worse yet, hasn't actually experienced it for
himself like most of the rest of us have.
>Must we get idiotic drivel like this every
>time that time travel comes up in a show?
I'm confused... are you talking about *yours* or *his* ?!?!?
>
>There is *NO* contradiction here. Get a clue!
>
Clue #1 ... the same piece of matter *shouldn't* be able to exist twice in the
same dimension at the same time and, regardless of the obvious wear and
tear, *if* that is indeed Data's head, it is the *same* piece of matter as
the one currently keeping his shoulders from knocking together. It presents
an *apparent* contradiction. Remember all the fun things that science
fiction writers seem to think will happen if a person meets himself in the
past ?
The *possibilities* suggested by time travel stories are the real fun, and
since there *are* no hard and fast rules yet, there *is* a seeming
contradiction to one school of thought here, Kenton.
-- Stephen
nuthin' left but the signature... press `n' to skip it.
The `past' is the pablum we feed our souls when the `future' has
soured. Though it will sustain us, it will not allow growth.
Greg Bole
(Masahiro Arakawa) writes:
> Now, let's say someone goes to the past, and affects it (talks to people about
> the future, whatever). In that case, this time line would then branch off from
> the original one at the point where this time traveler affected the past. From
> then on, history from that point on would not be the same (although if the
> effect was very minute, like saying to someone, "you'll clip your toenails
> later tonight, and nick yourself", it may not have noticeable effects on the
> future).
Try reading Simon Hawke's "Time Wars" series for a damn good explaination of
this kinda stuff. He calls it Zen Physics.
According to this series time is like a river. You change something small
(toenail clipping) and you throw a small rock in the river. No problem.
A bigger time change may form an actual split in the river, but the water can
once again flow together on the other side. This is the effects of temporal
inertia.
Now a massive change would be like tossing a huge boulder in the stream, and
the river is indeed split in two. The existance of the "alternate time lines"
threaten each other's existance. Now imagine if people from each time line
could cross over to the other, and a war takes place to eliminate the other
line...
(and yes I consider Twain to be one of the world's great novelests, and no
I'm not going to get into a flame war over it, and no I can't stand the writing
of Steven King, but it's all personal opinon...)
Greg Bole "General Feraud made occasional attempts
bo...@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu to kill me. That does not give him the
right to claim my acquaintance."
Keith Carradine in _The Duellists_
gbr...@galaxy.gov.bc.ca
> In article <1992Jul2....@athena.mit.edu>, ma...@athena.mit.edu
> (Masahiro Arakawa) writes:
>
>> Now, let's say someone goes to the past, and affects it (talks to people about
>> the future, whatever). In that case, this time line would then branch off from
>> the original one at the point where this time traveler affected the past. From
>> then on, history from that point on would not be the same (although if the
>> effect was very minute, like saying to someone, "you'll clip your toenails
>> later tonight, and nick yourself", it may not have noticeable effects on the
>> future).
>
> Try reading Simon Hawke's "Time Wars" series for a damn good explaination of
> this kinda stuff. He calls it Zen Physics.
>
> According to this series time is like a river. You change something small
> (toenail clipping) and you throw a small rock in the river. No problem.
>
> A bigger time change may form an actual split in the river, but the water can
> once again flow together on the other side. This is the effects of temporal
> inertia.
>
> Now a massive change would be like tossing a huge boulder in the stream, and
> the river is indeed split in two. The existance of the "alternate time lines"
> threaten each other's existance. Now imagine if people from each time line
> could cross over to the other, and a war takes place to eliminate the other
> line...
>
>
well presented. Especially episodes like "Time Squared" or "Cause and Effect"
(the jury is out on "Time's Arrow" until part II airs).
However my favorite time travel story remains Jack Chalker's "Downtiming the
Nightside". The premise (spelling?) of the story is that if time is just
another "dimension", then one should be able to create a machine to
control/travel across time... as with most methods of travel, there are limits:
the further back you go, and the longer you stay, the harder it is to get back,
and the less you remember about having some place to go back to. Its quite
interesting to see the characters go chasing each other through time to see
what they have mucked up!
But back to STTNG: my fear with TA is that we will get a trekspeak explanation
of how the crew went back in time, without the coherence, and with no tangible
relationship to previous explanations of time given in the series to date. Oh
well, I can always hope...
Live Long and prosper.
Gabor Brach
Ferenc Szabo
B
>
>Clue #1 ... the same piece of matter *shouldn't* be able to exist twice in the
>same dimension at the same time and, regardless of the obvious wear and
>tear, *if* that is indeed Data's head, it is the *same* piece of matter as
>the one currently keeping his shoulders from knocking together. It presents
>an *apparent* contradiction. Remember all the fun things that science
>fiction writers seem to think will happen if a person meets himself in the
>past ?
I'm not a Quantum Mechanics expert but I'll attempt to explain. Time is
another dimension just as the 3 dimensions in space are. All moments in
time exist simultaneously.....at the same 'time'. Many aspects to time
are related to observation....that is the perception that inteligent beings
posses. It would be therfore logical for the same matter to exist at the
same time and not violate the 'matter and energy cannot be destroyed but only
changed' law.
Ok....somebody with a gift for gab ought to explain it better than me, but it
made perfect sense when I read it from a few sources; I'm just bad at repeating
things. (I re-tell jokes really badly)
TNG has already done this twice already. In 'Time Square' we see 2 Picards
existing simultaneously, one being from 6 hours in the future. Tasha Yar
also existed on Romulus 20 years before the season 1 version of her died
via Armus THe Tar Pit.
Hell.....weren't there 3 Marty Mcflys at one point??? Or was that on
Saturday Nite Live.
ferenc