Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Redemption II"
Timothy W. Lynch
premiere, "Redemption II." Anyone proceeding beyond this point had
better be comfortable knowing what happens therein. (And for this particular
case, I'll go all out; two Ctrl-L's [usual conduct; a quick one-line summary
after the first, then the full review], plus 30 lines, plus a small lemming
named Herbert.
(I was kidding about the lemming.)
Curse them all to an eternity of having to continually watch "Qpid".
If you've been on r.a.s for any length of time longer than a shrew's lifespan,
you know the primary reason for THAT comment. There are others, though--this
had a lot of potential, and only _some_ of it was fulfilled. More on that,
plus the usual rantings 'n' ravings, after this synopsis:
Kurn's ship, the Hectar, is heavily damaged and running from two attacking
Klingon cruisers. Worf, tactical officer, is advising a complete
retreat--Kurn has other ideas. He orders the ship dangerously close to a
nearby star, and goes into warp just shy of the photosphere; the resulting
distortion causes a wall of superheated plasma to form, which destroys both
pursuers. Meanwhile, Captain Picard tries to convince Fleet Admiral Sharanti
[sp?] to let him set up a fleet along the Klingon-Romulan border. The idea is
to serve as a blockade, to prevent supplies from being shipped from the
Romulans to the Duras family--or to catch Romulan ships in the act and reveal
their connection. (And since Geordi has worked out a way to use tachyonic
streams to weave a "net" to detect cloaked ships, it's got a chance of
working.) He gets that permission. "I hope we know what we're doing." "So
do I, Number One."
The fleet's stretched thin in that area, but he manages to assemble a fleet of
23 ships. Riker takes command of the USS Excalibur, and after asking if
Picard considers him fit to command, Data takes command of the USS Sutherland.
Meanwhile, Kurn, Worf, and other Gowron loyalists spend time in a bar with
Duras loyalists. Kurn urges Worf to think of these people as fellow
_warriors_ for the evening, not as enemies--and Lursa and B'Etor look on,
decided to make Worf a very appealing offer. Data formally assumes command of
the Sutherland, over objections from his first officer, LCDR Hobson, who
doesn't believe androids are fit to command. All ships being ready, the Fleet
heads into the breach...
A short time later, the convoy of supplies to the Duras family is running
late--Lursa and B'Etor are seething, but the Blonde Romulan tries to ease
their worries. All, however, are taken by surprise when they receive word of
the approaching Federation fleet; the Blonde Romulan orders Movar to assemble
a Romulan fleet in response. After Worf's attempt to intercede in a challenge
to Gowron's leadership results only in Gowron getting a clear shot at his
opponent, the Fleet crosses into Klingon space and is deployed. Data deals
with Hobson challenging his authority...temporarily, and the tachyon "net" is
established. The Blonde Romulan, seeing this, sets Movar to work on finding a
way to counter it, and she herself orders her ship to intercept the
Enterprise.
They reach the Enterprise, decloak, and hail. Picard reacts, as one might
expect, with very visible shock at her appearance. "Tasha?" "No, Captain.
My name is Commander Sela. The woman you knew as Tasha Yar--was my mother."
Sela continues on, saying that the Romulan Empire cannot tolerate an
"invasion" fleet along their borders, and gives them 24 hours to depart.
After they break communications, Picard confers with Troi and Crusher.
Crusher is skeptical of Sela's claim, as they all are--but Troi sensed no
deception at all. They depart, and Guinan enters.
She questions Picard about his knowledge of the Enterprise's predecessor, the
Enterprise-C. He responds that it was destroyed in the battle of Norendra 3,
and dismisses the stories of survivors from the Enterprise-C as rumours.
Guinan disputes this. There _were_ survivors, she says; and Tasha was one of
them. Yes, Tasha was a child then--but nevertheless, Tasha was on board *as
an adult*. Furthermore, Guinan thinks that _Picard_ sent her. He can't just
dismiss it as her vague intuition, she says; because if she's right, then
Picard is responsible for this entire situation.
Meanwhile, Worf gripes to Kurn about Gowron's conduct, but Kurn will hear none
of it. He stalks out--and two other Klingons come in, beat Worf senseless,
and drag him away...
A short time later, Sela meets with Picard on the Enterprise. After a few
comments back and forth about the military aspects of this situation, she
addresses the question that's really on Picard's mind: how can she be Tasha's
daughter? She gives her history: Tasha was on the Enterprise-C and was one
of the few survivors of the battle. She was captured, and was saved from
execution by a Romulan general who took her as consort. Sela was born a year
later. Tasha is now dead, killed when Sela was 4 years old in an escape
attempt which Sela herself foiled. Sela claims that her human half died that
day, and that she is now totally and solely Romulan. Picard is completely
unconvinced that her story is true, and insists it won't affect his judgement
in any way--Sela responds by reiterating her ultimatum and stalking out.
Worf wakes, only to find Lursa and a very aroused B'Etor near him. They tell
him that Toral _will_ be the next leader of the Empire, but that he needs
help...a father-figure. They offer that position to him, as B'Etor's mate.
Worf, completely appalled, refuses and is dragged away to a cell.
Picard convinces Gowron to launch a new attack now, hoping to force the
Romulans to try to run the blockade before the deadline. He and Riker confer,
and outline a plan to open a "hole" in the net, only to have the Enterprise
swoop in and catch whatever ships try to fly through it.
The attack begins, and Lursa and B'Etor, not surprisingly, call Sela for help.
She and Movar see the hole form in the net, but Sela sees it for the ploy it
is. She chooses an alternate strategy--fire a huge tachyon pulse at one of
the ships, thus disrupting their ability to focus the net. They target the
Sutherland, and fire.
Picard, realizing that the net is now leaking, orders the Fleet to fall back
and regroup. They begin to do so, but Data quickly orders a full stop,
realizing that Sela's tactic may have left the Romulans with a residual
tachyon signature. Despite Hobson's multiple objections, and Picard's angered
demands to know why he's disobeying orders, Data locates and reveals three
ships with a photon torpedo burst. Sela realizes that the plot is foiled and
orders a full-scale withdrawal. Lursa and B'Etor depart, leaving Worf to
fight a Romulan centurion (whom he defeats) and Toral to face the justice of
Kurn and Gowron.
Shortly thereafter, the Fleet has dispersed, and Picard is once again at the
Klingon homeworld--this time, to report to Gowron on the whole affair. After
the briefing, Gowron gives Worf Toral's life in exchange for the damage done
to Worf by the Duras family. Worf, however, spares him, saying that he will
not kill Toral for the crimes of his family, and he returns to the Enterprise.
There we are. That should do. Now, on to the commentary.
Damn, but I'm annoyed. I hoped for _three damned months_ that they wouldn't
resort to such a hokey explanation for Denise Crosby's return, only to be
disappointed. That in itself was a big letdown.
But other elements of the show were as well, unfortunately. The biggest
problem, I think, is that we had no less than THREE major plotlines happening
(Sela's identity, the Klingon civil war, and Data's first command) at once.
All three would have been better served, I think, by having a full episode
devoted to them. Instead, we got something that was very disjointed, and
very...oh, I don't know..."slapdash", I think.
And that's really a pity, because bits of the show were amazing. The opening
sequence with Worf and Kurn fighting for their lives was one of the better
action sequences TNG's ever had--I'm slightly miffed that they didn't go the
full _The Wounded Sky_ route and have the star they warped that close to go
nova, but that's just me. :-) And the actual strategies involved in Picard's
and Sela's planning were interesting enough to keep me both guessing and
enthralled. The Data-deals-with-command storyline was solid enough--it was
just way too *small*. The entire show had terrific production values, I
think--effects, sets, and yes, music. I'm just depressed that they didn't do
a better job with the plot.
One thing they could have done starting out was to worry about Denise's
return some other time, and use *Tomalak* as the main Romulan schemer here and
in part I. That's a character with a history, who's already a fairly
well-established schemer, and who was beginning to show signs of being a nice
recurring villain back in "The Defector". For that matter, I think Denise
herself did a good job as Sela the Commander; it was as Sela the Daughter of
Tasha that she fell flat (not just the character; I thought that whole scene
detailing her origins was pretty weak). If they hadn't thrown in the Tasha
stuff, they could even have kept Sela. Sheesh.
And surprisingly, a lot of little details were big problems this time;
something TNG in general, and Ron Moore in particular, is usually much better
about. For example:
--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
quickly, especially with no explanation.
--Picard says to Guinan that Tasha died a year before Guinan came on board.
Wrong. Not even close. "Skin of Evil" was almost the end of the first
season, and Guinan was already on board by the beginning of the second. No
more than a few months.
--In the like vein, Picard refers to the Norendra 3 battle as both 23 and 24
years ago (23 to Guinan, 24 to Sela). Now, given that YE was said to be 22
years after the battle, it's probably 23 and a half or something, but come on,
guys, at least be consistent within the same episode!
Other small observations:
--There are still too many issues left unresolved from "Reunion". Gowron's
clearly not lily-white, based on his actions HERE; I still think there's a
strong possibility that he poisoned K'Mpec in the first place.
--Not so much a gripe as an observation: the studio, even after this, is
still insisting Data has no emotions? Yeah. Uh-huh. Bridge, please. :-)
Sorry, but that was one miffed android on the Sutherland.
--I do hope that my wife and I weren't the only ones with vivid images of
scenes from "The Empire Strikes Back" in our heads during the whole "join us,
Worf" speech. It felt like it was almost a direct steal. Shame, Ron, shame.
:-)
And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
First, a quick scream of anguish:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks. I needed that. :-)
Now, more coherent gripes. Why, why, why, WHY did they have to do this?
They could have brought her back as an ordinary scheming Romulan, or even one
who actually _was_ surgically altered to screw around with Picard's mind. (Of
course, they could go back and establish this later--but if they do that, I
think they're just going to manage to alienate the *other* half of the people
who are concerned, while doing nothing to win back the half they've just
pissed off.)
But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they could
give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to self-destruct
and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of the Ent-C that
*I* saw.
3) Sela looks too damned old to be a mere 22 1/2. She's also too high in
rank. The Romulans are going to trust someone who was the daughter of a
prisoner from the future (clearly they know this; Sela mentioned it enough
times) enough to make her a full Commander and to put her in charge of an
operation as big as both the one in "The Mind's Eye" and the one here? Again,
no. I don't buy it.
I might have been able to buy ONE of these three coincidences at any given
time. Never all three--not under any circumstances.
Now, fallout from this:
--In addition, we didn't even get any REACTIONS to her story. Picard was the
only one we saw, and his was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too calm. I know that if
someone told me "oh, by the way, you ordered back an alternate version of one
of your dead officers into the past 24 years ago, and she happened to be
captured and give birth to me, even though you don't remember any of this as
ever happening," I'd go an awful lot beyond a calm skepticism. As for the
others...Worf sees Sela on the screen while imprisoned, and has NO reaction?
WORF? And everyone else was oh so conveniently placed on other ships, so that
no reaction would be seen. Blecch. (Data's in particular is an absolute MUST
to do a story like this right. And I wanted to see Geordi's reaction to
Romulans in general; after the events in "The Mind's Eye", he should be more
than a little emotional about it.)
--Guinan basically blaming Picard for this whole situation. *What?* Putting
aside the issue of Picard "sending" Tasha back (a distortion of the events of
YE, but an understandable one given murky data and probable bitterness on
Tasha's part), none of that implies that Picard is in any way responsible for
the problems facing the Klingons.
Yeesh. I think I'm going on a bit much. I'm also sounding more negative
about it than I think I feel; some of it was nice, as I mentioned above. And
two of the three plotlines (all but Sela) were reasonably well done, just too
skimpy. (I thought the technobabble was actually pretty convincing this
time--the idea of a tachyon "tripwire", in effect, is a pretty neat one,
methinks.) The performances were generally strong, particularly Stewart's (of
course), and even more particularly Stewart's with the Fleet Admiral at the
beginning. Talk about persuasive... (Others were excellent as well,
especially Tony Todd's as Kurn.) And as I've said, the action scenes were
actually very well done, I thought.
I just wish they'd put as much effort into the story. Ah, well. They may
someday regain the respect I did have for them; but as it is, this left me
very disappointed.
'Tis time for the numbers, it seems. Maestro:
Plot: 7 for Data's command, 8 for the war, and ZERO for Sela's origins comes
out to an even 5.
Plot Handling: David Carson did a fairly good job here. Not stellar, the way
his work for "Yesterday's Enterprise" was; but fairly good. However,
the plots meshed very poorly; poorly enough to drop to a 4.
Characterization: Generally good, and Sela's only half bad here. 8.
So, averaging that and boosting it up for truly exceptional production values,
it seems that we're looking at a 6.5. Not nearly as bad as I'm saying above, I
think--maybe I'm just grumpy tonight. To sum up--lots of good pieces, but
very, very jumbled. Sigh.
NEXT WEEK:
Picard's kidnapped and fighting for his life on some planet or other, and the
Enterprise might be facing the start of a war. Could be interesting...
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"So then I can tell my supervisors that a fleet of 23 starships is on our
borders for...what? Humanitarian reasons?"
--Sela
--
Copyright 1991, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
tony murray
>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
>premiere, "Redemption II."
I'm preserving Tim's Control-L and the 30 lines (in case formfeed doesn't
take for some reason).
In general, I agreed with Tim's analyses mostly, with a few
exceptions. Details below:
>--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
>part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
>quickly, especially with no explanation.
I think there were two factors at work here. First, we don't know for sure
that Worf was going to serve on Gowron's ship. All Gowron said when Worf
resigned from Starfleet was, "I will await you on the Bortas." It is quite
likely that Gowron's forces (increased because of Kern's nick-of-time
arrival) were shuffled to maximize their chances of success. The other
factor is time. Although the Star Date didn't change by too much, it
seemed (to me, at least) that there had been some time passing between
the episodes. Sela had time to return to her homeworld, make whatever
reports were necessary, and prepare supply ships for the Duras family
forces, and the Enterprise had time to return to a Starbase.
>--I do hope that my wife and I weren't the only ones with vivid images of
>scenes from "The Empire Strikes Back" in our heads during the whole "join us,
>Worf" speech. It felt like it was almost a direct steal. Shame, Ron, shame.
>:-)
With regard to the Duras family sisters, I thought the actresses who played
Lursa and B'Etor were a bit too hammy....they played up the "evil
villanesses" bit too much.
>And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
I agree wholeheartedly.
>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
I agree here, with a caviat. The wormhole was a freak, and completely
unexpected. Data figured out what it was, and how it worked, but it
is *possible* that some anomolies occurred...especially if it was
becoming unstable (which I believe was stated). Perhaps instead of the
instability merely closing the rift more quickly, it altered the
conditions in which the Ent-C would return when it passed through the
hole...like coming out in a slightly different (and more advantageous)
location.
>2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
>Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
>knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they could
>give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to self-destruct
>and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of the Ent-C that
>*I* saw.
Furthermore, I find it VERY difficult to belive that Tasha, who grew up
running from the rape gangs on her planet (I presume that that portion
of the history was relatively similar to what we know) would voluntarily
become the consort of an enemy merely to save her life...Honor was important
to her, else she wouldn't have volunteered to go back in time to make her
death count for something...She was brave enough to die for that, and I
don't buy that her will would crumble at the threat of execution.
>--Guinan basically blaming Picard for this whole situation. *What?* Putting
>aside the issue of Picard "sending" Tasha back (a distortion of the events of
>YE, but an understandable one given murky data and probable bitterness on
>Tasha's part), none of that implies that Picard is in any way responsible for
>the problems facing the Klingons.
Yep. Guinan was way out of line, here.
>I just wish they'd put as much effort into the story. Ah, well. They may
>someday regain the respect I did have for them; but as it is, this left me
>very disappointed.
One last note (and it has been mentioned elsewhere): I was extremely
bothered by Worf's request to return to duty, and Picard's immediate
acceptance. I think that should have been handled with a little more
forethought and detail on the part of the writers.
>Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
>BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
>INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
>UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
>--
>Copyright 1991, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask..
--
--Tony Murray (tmu...@socrates.umd.edu)
"I like when they talk real loud trying to tell you what they know."
-MwoH
Hades
>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
>premiere, "Redemption II." Anyone proceeding beyond this point had
>better be comfortable knowing what happens therein. (And for this particular
>case, I'll go all out; two Ctrl-L's [usual conduct; a quick one-line summary
>after the first, then the full review], plus 30 lines, plus a small lemming
>named Herbert.
>
>(I was kidding about the lemming.)
>Curse them all to an eternity of having to continually watch "Qpid".
>
>If you've been on r.a.s for any length of time longer than a shrew's lifespan,
>you know the primary reason for THAT comment. There are others, though--this
>had a lot of potential, and only _some_ of it was fulfilled. More on that,
>plus the usual rantings 'n' ravings, after this synopsis:
[Synopsis left as a exercise to the reader of rasi]
>There we are. That should do. Now, on to the commentary.
>Damn, but I'm annoyed. I hoped for _three damned months_ that they wouldn't
>resort to such a hokey explanation for Denise Crosby's return, only to be
>disappointed. That in itself was a big letdown.
This really got to me too, and I was hoping pretty mucht the same thing
that you were, but then I wanted absolutely no ties to Tash whatever. If
Denise Crosby wants to come back, fine. I think she makes a pretty good
romulan, and she certainly gets to show a lot more emotions that she did as
Tasha, but leave the connection out of it!
>One thing they could have done starting out was to worry about Denise's
>return some other time, and use *Tomalak* as the main Romulan schemer here
>and in part I. That's a character with a history, who's already a fairly
>well-established schemer, and who was beginning to show signs of being a
>nice recurring villain back in "The Defector". For that matter, I think
>Denise herself did a good job as Sela the Commander; it was as Sela the
>Daughter of Tasha that she fell flat (not just the character; I thought
>that whole scene detailing her origins was pretty weak). If they hadn't
>thrown in the Tasha stuff, they could even have kept Sela. Sheesh.
My thoughts precicely!
>--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
>part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
>quickly, especially with no explanation.
It wouldn't be too hard to see that Worf would want to serve with his
brother in the War, but you are right about the lack of explanation.
>--Picard says to Guinan that Tasha died a year before Guinan came on board.
>Wrong. Not even close. "Skin of Evil" was almost the end of the first
>season, and Guinan was already on board by the beginning of the second. No
>more than a few months.
There were a lot of changes between season 1 and 2. Isn't that the same
time that Riker got the beard, Beverly left the ship, and Diana Muldaur
came on. And thanks to my handy TNG Program Guide we see that Skin of Evil
happened at SD 41601.3, and the Child (Guinan's first episode) happens on
42073.1. I'm not sure how Stardates work, but it appears that there was
something just under 500 stardates between the 2 episodes. How much time is
that for us earthlings?
>--In the like vein, Picard refers to the Norendra 3 battle as both 23 and
>24 years ago (23 to Guinan, 24 to Sela). Now, given that YE was said to be
>22 years after the battle, it's probably 23 and a half or something, but
>come on, guys, at least be consistent within the same episode!
Hm... I missed this. I guess I'll have to see it again....
>Other small observations:
>--There are still too many issues left unresolved from "Reunion". Gowron's
>clearly not lily-white, based on his actions HERE; I still think there's a
>strong possibility that he poisoned K'Mpec in the first place.
I hadn't seen this suggested before. He was quite happy in Red. I when
he thanked Worf for killing Duras though.
>--Not so much a gripe as an observation: the studio, even after this, is
>still insisting Data has no emotions? Yeah. Uh-huh. Bridge, please. :-)
>Sorry, but that was one miffed android on the Sutherland.
I don't know. I kind of like this direction for Data. It allowed him to
shoe frustration in a command situation, without loosing his cool as
aregular person with emotions would have in the same situation. Of course
the situation stemmed from the fact that Data has no emotions, so I'm not
sure where that leaves us...
>And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
>First, a quick scream of anguish:
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
>Thanks. I needed that. :-)
Apparantly so...
>Now, more coherent gripes. Why, why, why, WHY did they have to do this?
>They could have brought her back as an ordinary scheming Romulan, or even
>one who actually _was_ surgically altered to screw around with Picard's
>mind. (Of course, they could go back and establish this later--but if they
>do that, I think they're just going to manage to alienate the *other* half
>of the people who are concerned, while doing nothing to win back the half
>they've just pissed off.)
They had to know that the majority of fandom whas split down the middle
on the whole Tasha debate. Even if they pay only cursory attention to the
stuff that goes on at the cons. It really did seem like the easy way out,
but it really worked well for a lot of people. I guess those of us that
didn't want any connection will have to suck it up...
>But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
>implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
>late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
>2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
>Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
>knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they
>could give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to
>self-destruct and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of
>the Ent-C that *I* saw.
Both of these are true, but can't be possible to predict the outcome of
something that may or may not happen in the past when you are in the
future. I'm not saying this makes it nay more plausible, but...
>3) Sela looks too damned old to be a mere 22 1/2. She's also too high in
>rank. The Romulans are going to trust someone who was the daughter of a
>prisoner from the future (clearly they know this; Sela mentioned it enough
>times) enough to make her a full Commander and to put her in charge of an
>operation as big as both the one in "The Mind's Eye" and the one here?
>Again, no. I don't buy it.
I didn't know that we were ever given any information on the normal
ageing process for the Romulans. They are an alien race, and the normal
rules just don't aplly to them.
>I might have been able to buy ONE of these three coincidences at any given
>time. Never all three--not under any circumstances.
Well, I don't see the third as a coincidence, but the other 2 are a bit
far fetched because we are led to believe from YE that neither of those
situation would have ever come to pass. But as I stated above you just
can't predict how the past will come about from the future. Especially
since there will be no way for you to ever really know about it. It it
chages then everything else is chaged retroactively, along with your
memories.
>Now, fallout from this:
>--In addition, we didn't even get any REACTIONS to her story. Picard was
>the only one we saw, and his was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too calm. I know that
>if someone told me "oh, by the way, you ordered back an alternate version
>of one of your dead officers into the past 24 years ago, and she happened
>to be captured and give birth to me, even though you don't remember any of
>this as ever happening," I'd go an awful lot beyond a calm skepticism. As
>for the others...Worf sees Sela on the screen while imprisoned, and has NO
>reaction? WORF? And everyone else was oh so conveniently placed on other
>ships, so that no reaction would be seen. Blecch. (Data's in particular
>is an absolute MUST to do a story like this right. And I wanted to see
>Geordi's reaction to Romulans in general; after the events in "The Mind's
>Eye", he should be more than a little emotional about it.)
I was very pissed at the reactions (or lack thereof) from both Picard
and Worf. Especially Worf! How could he have not recognized her
resemblance. even if he can write off the occurance as a coincidence there
should have at least have been some kind of double-take or something.
I hadn't really though about it before, because I was getting into the
Data as captain sub-plot, but his reaction should have been there. Then we
would haveseen if had emotions or not! It would have been a perfect test
for him as Captain to have to deal with. Talk about on the job stress!!!
I also didn't think about the Geordi tie in, and while it would have
been nice to see his reactions to the whole situation with the Romulans,
that would have just been a bit much even for a 2-part season opener, I
think.
>--Guinan basically blaming Picard for this whole situation. *What?* Putting
>aside the issue of Picard "sending" Tasha back (a distortion of the events of
>YE, but an understandable one given murky data and probable bitterness on
>Tasha's part), none of that implies that Picard is in any way responsible for
>the problems facing the Klingons.
I suppose that depends on how you view the past, and the way the past
changes because of someone from the future tavelling back there. Since
Guinan is kind of out of the timestream in some strange way, she see the
entire current Federation/Klingon/Romulan relation haveing made a drastic
chage from the time of YE. If that is the case then Picard is basically
responsible for all of this.
>Yeesh. I think I'm going on a bit much. I'm also sounding more negative
>about it than I think I feel; some of it was nice, as I mentioned above.
>And two of the three plotlines (all but Sela) were reasonably well done,
>just too skimpy. (I thought the technobabble was actually pretty
>convincing this time--the idea of a tachyon "tripwire", in effect, is a
>pretty neat one, methinks.) The performances were generally strong,
>particularly Stewart's (of course), and even more particularly Stewart's
>with the Fleet Admiral at the beginning. Talk about persuasive... (Others
>were excellent as well, especially Tony Todd's as Kurn.) And as I've said,
>the action scenes were actually very well done, I thought.
Actually the tachyon net reminded me more of a space battle with
submarines and destroyers. The Romulans are the subs, travelling beneath
the water of their cloaking devide, and the Fed are the surface destroyers.
Unable to see the cloaked (submerged) Romulan ships, but they have just
learned to deply tachyon (read SONAR) nets to detect the passage of an
enemy sub. I though that whole sequence was amazing. It, along with Data's
command are what made the episode for me. This is the kind of thin I want
to see more of, the rest of the episode, while fairly good, seemed to be
pretty standard all the way around.
>I just wish they'd put as much effort into the story. Ah, well. They may
>someday regain the respect I did have for them; but as it is, this left me
>very disappointed.
I had very mixed feelings. Some I really liked, some I couldn't stand,
and the rest was just sort of there for me.
--
-Hades (aka. The Hustler) | "If crimefighters fight crime, and firefighters
Brian V. Hughes | fight fires; what do freedom fighters fight?"
Mac Database Administrator | -Carlin
Dartmouth Medical School | -Internet: ha...@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu
Mr. Smiley Face
:)tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
:)>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
:)>premiere, "Redemption II."
:)I'm preserving Tim's Control-L and the 30 lines (in case formfeed doesn't
:)take for some reason).
So then this article now contains additives and preservatives... :)
:)In general, I agreed with Tim's analyses mostly, with a few
:)exceptions. Details below:
:)>--I do hope that my wife and I weren't the only ones with vivid images of
:)>scenes from "The Empire Strikes Back" in our heads during the whole "join us,
:)>Worf" speech. It felt like it was almost a direct steal. Shame, Ron, shame.
:)>:-)
:)With regard to the Duras family sisters, I thought the actresses who played
:)Lursa and B'Etor were a bit too hammy....they played up the "evil
:)villanesses" bit too much.
I don't know... I kind of like the idea of a Klingon slut as a sidekick
and Lursa trying to be controlling. I think they do a pretty good job.
:)>And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
:)I agree wholeheartedly.
:)>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
:)>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
:)>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
:)>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
:)>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
:)I agree here, with a caviat. The wormhole was a freak, and completely
:)unexpected. Data figured out what it was, and how it worked, but it
:)is *possible* that some anomolies occurred...especially if it was
:)becoming unstable (which I believe was stated). Perhaps instead of the
:)instability merely closing the rift more quickly, it altered the
:)conditions in which the Ent-C would return when it passed through the
:)hole...like coming out in a slightly different (and more advantageous)
:)location.
Heh... like right behind the Romulan's? :) That's actually a good
possiblity.
:)>2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
:)>Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
:)>knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they could
:)>give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to self-destruct
:)>and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of the Ent-C that
:)>*I* saw.
:)Furthermore, I find it VERY difficult to belive that Tasha, who grew up
:)running from the rape gangs on her planet (I presume that that portion
:)of the history was relatively similar to what we know) would voluntarily
:)become the consort of an enemy merely to save her life...Honor was important
:)to her, else she wouldn't have volunteered to go back in time to make her
:)death count for something...She was brave enough to die for that, and I
:)don't buy that her will would crumble at the threat of execution.
But I think Tasha *would* let herself become a consort if she thought she
could later escape, which is exactly what she tried to do. She would have
the potential to bring back Romulan technology with her. Remember, the
lives of all the other crew members were spared as well as hers.
:)>I just wish they'd put as much effort into the story. Ah, well. They may
:)>someday regain the respect I did have for them; but as it is, this left me
:)>very disappointed.
:)One last note (and it has been mentioned elsewhere): I was extremely
:)bothered by Worf's request to return to duty, and Picard's immediate
:)acceptance. I think that should have been handled with a little more
:)forethought and detail on the part of the writers.
Better yet, how about SOME detail on the part of the writers?
-Josh Laff :)
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
| Josh Laff: e-mail to: |
This is nothing but a consistently | smi...@uiuc.edu | # #
pathological display of inconsistent |smi...@gnu.ai.mit.edu____| _ _
consistencies. |_____________________| | |#\_____/#|
| (217) 384-6227 | \#######/
Mr. Smiley Face
:)WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
:)premiere, "Redemption II." Anyone proceeding beyond this point had
:)better be comfortable knowing what happens therein. (And for this particular
:)case, I'll go all out; two Ctrl-L's [usual conduct; a quick one-line summary
:)after the first, then the full review], plus 30 lines, plus a small lemming
:)named Herbert.
Maybe this was the "Herbert" they were referring to in TOS space hippy
episode....
:)(I was kidding about the lemming.)
:)Curse them all to an eternity of having to continually watch "Qpid".
I LIKED Qpid!
:)If you've been on r.a.s for any length of time longer than a shrew's lifespan,
:)you know the primary reason for THAT comment. There are others, though--this
:)had a lot of potential, and only _some_ of it was fulfilled. More on that,
:)plus the usual rantings 'n' ravings, after this synopsis:
[Synopsis delted]
:)There we are. That should do. Now, on to the commentary.
:)Damn, but I'm annoyed. I hoped for _three damned months_ that they wouldn't
:)resort to such a hokey explanation for Denise Crosby's return, only to be
:)disappointed. That in itself was a big letdown.
Yeah, I think out of all the ideas tossed around, that was one of my least
favorite. There's no reason to have Crosby play that character than
any other. At least she's doing it well, though, or I'd be REALLY
upset.
:)But other elements of the show were as well, unfortunately. The biggest
:)problem, I think, is that we had no less than THREE major plotlines happening
:)(Sela's identity, the Klingon civil war, and Data's first command) at once.
:)All three would have been better served, I think, by having a full episode
I think Sela's identity fit okay. It they got rid of the Data one, they'd
have a lot more time for the other two, and would have been able to
develop those better.
:)And that's really a pity, because bits of the show were amazing. The opening
:)sequence with Worf and Kurn fighting for their lives was one of the better
:)action sequences TNG's ever had--I'm slightly miffed that they didn't go the
I still say you can't get that close to a star!
:)nova, but that's just me. :-) And the actual strategies involved in Picard's
:)and Sela's planning were interesting enough to keep me both guessing and
:)enthralled. The Data-deals-with-command storyline was solid enough--it was
Yeah... that part reminded me of "Balance of Terror", another really good
episode, and I think they did it very well, as well as had a good story
line for it.
:)One thing they could have done starting out was to worry about Denise's
:)return some other time, and use *Tomalak* as the main Romulan schemer here and
:)in part I. That's a character with a history, who's already a fairly
:)well-established schemer, and who was beginning to show signs of being a nice
Yeah. There really was no added benifit of having Yar's daughter in this
episode. While it was done well, it didn't add much to the plot.
:)recurring villain back in "The Defector". For that matter, I think Denise
:)herself did a good job as Sela the Commander; it was as Sela the Daughter of
:)Tasha that she fell flat (not just the character; I thought that whole scene
:)detailing her origins was pretty weak). If they hadn't thrown in the Tasha
:)stuff, they could even have kept Sela. Sheesh.
I hope no one keeps complaining about Crosby's acting abilities. Except
for possibly the scene to which you're referring where she acted a little
bit soft, I think she made (sorry to keep using this phrase) one tough
bitch! The scene you're talking about isn't that bad. It had to be done;
we had to get some explanation. It could have been much worse...
:)--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
:)part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
:)quickly, especially with no explanation.
Yeah. I noticed this as soon as they showed the inside of the ship. That
really bothered me. Just a tad inconsistent... :)
:)--Picard says to Guinan that Tasha died a year before Guinan came on board.
:)Wrong. Not even close. "Skin of Evil" was almost the end of the first
:)season, and Guinan was already on board by the beginning of the second. No
:)more than a few months.
You forgot about the summer months of re-runs, though. ;)
:)--In the like vein, Picard refers to the Norendra 3 battle as both 23 and 24
:)years ago (23 to Guinan, 24 to Sela). Now, given that YE was said to be 22
:)years after the battle, it's probably 23 and a half or something, but come on,
:)guys, at least be consistent within the same episode!
Well, so... er... maybe one time he was rounding up, and one time he was
rounding down! :)
:)Other small observations:
:)--There are still too many issues left unresolved from "Reunion". Gowron's
:)clearly not lily-white, based on his actions HERE; I still think there's a
:)strong possibility that he poisoned K'Mpec in the first place.
Not sure what you quite mean by this... Could you explain it?
:)--Not so much a gripe as an observation: the studio, even after this, is
:)still insisting Data has no emotions? Yeah. Uh-huh. Bridge, please. :-)
:)Sorry, but that was one miffed android on the Sutherland.
Who cares what the studio says. It's what the viewers think. Just as long
as they don't pull another "In Theory", I'll be fine... (both the idea
OR the quality :)
:)And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
:)First, a quick scream of anguish:
:)AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
You should insert a spoiler warning for loud screams so we can protect
ourselves. I wouldn't have used quite as many letters... :)
:)Now, more coherent gripes. Why, why, why, WHY did they have to do this?
:)They could have brought her back as an ordinary scheming Romulan, or even one
:)who actually _was_ surgically altered to screw around with Picard's mind. (Of
:)But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
:)implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
:)late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
Wasn't completley implausible. I just didn't like the daughter bit... :)
[Comparisons of the Enterprise-C to burnt peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches
deleted.]
Okay... so the explanation has it's flaw. Other than the fact that she
shouldn't exist, I don't see anything wrong with it, though... :)
:)3) Sela looks too damned old to be a mere 22 1/2. She's also too high in
:)rank. The Romulans are going to trust someone who was the daughter of a
:)prisoner from the future (clearly they know this; Sela mentioned it enough
:)times) enough to make her a full Commander and to put her in charge of an
:)operation as big as both the one in "The Mind's Eye" and the one here? Again,
:)no. I don't buy it.
Well, the age thing could be the same as someone in starfleet being the
youngest Captain/Admiral/Groundskeeper in Starfleet history type of deal.
As for the human half thing, if she hates her humanity as much as she says,
then she may have been able to prove her worthiness.
:)--In addition, we didn't even get any REACTIONS to her story. Picard was the
:)only one we saw, and his was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too calm. I know that if
I suppose, but remember that he was also already starting his "chess" game
with her, and that could very well be part of it. He did say the situation
woudn't influence any of his decisions.
:)ever happening," I'd go an awful lot beyond a calm skepticism. As for the
:)others...Worf sees Sela on the screen while imprisoned, and has NO reaction?
:)WORF?
Hmm... didn't even catch that... VERY good point... the only possible
explanation I can think of is that he was too wraped up in his interogation/
seduction to think about it, but I don't even buy that.
:) And everyone else was oh so conveniently placed on other ships, so that
:)no reaction would be seen. Blecch. (Data's in particular is an absolute MUST
:)to do a story like this right. And I wanted to see Geordi's reaction to
:)Romulans in general; after the events in "The Mind's Eye", he should be more
:)than a little emotional about it.)
Yeah... I was starting to question my rating beeing too low, but you're
strenghening that rating. Now that you brought it up, I'm really disappointed
nothing happened where we say Data's reaction.
:)--Guinan basically blaming Picard for this whole situation. *What?* Putting
:)aside the issue of Picard "sending" Tasha back (a distortion of the events of
:)YE, but an understandable one given murky data and probable bitterness on
:)Tasha's part), none of that implies that Picard is in any way responsible for
:)the problems facing the Klingons.
yeah... that was bothering me every time it came up. Why was anyone blaming
Picard? If it weren't Sela on the ship, it probably would have been someone
else. I'm sure that one Romulan leader isn't responsible for the
entire plans of the Romulans.
:)especially Tony Todd's as Kurn.) And as I've said, the action scenes were
:)actually very well done, I thought.
Yeah... some of the best so far.
:)I just wish they'd put as much effort into the story. Ah, well. They may
:)someday regain the respect I did have for them; but as it is, this left me
:)very disappointed.
:)'Tis time for the numbers, it seems. Maestro:
:)Plot: 7 for Data's command, 8 for the war, and ZERO for Sela's origins comes
:) out to an even 5.
The war wasn't that good. The only scenes with Worf were about basically
how others were looking at him, whereas part one had him looking at the
Klingons. And the Sela's origins wasn't that bad...
:)it seems that we're looking at a 6.5. Not nearly as bad as I'm saying above, I
:)think--maybe I'm just grumpy tonight. To sum up--lots of good pieces, but
:)very, very jumbled. Sigh.
Yeah... that sums it up rather well...
:)NEXT WEEK:
:)Picard's kidnapped and fighting for his life on some planet or other, and the
:)Enterprise might be facing the start of a war. Could be interesting...
Is it me, or does this seem a really big combination of the episode where
he previously gets kidnapped (I forgot the title... starts with an A...), and
Final Mission, with some "Arsnol of Freedom" thrown in?
Kevin D. Quitt
>Furthermore, I find it VERY difficult to belive that Tasha, who grew up
>running from the rape gangs on her planet (I presume that that portion
>of the history was relatively similar to what we know) would voluntarily
>become the consort of an enemy merely to save her life...
Well, it wan't just her life - it was all the prisoners (or so I
understood). On the other hand, knowing she had info about the future,
I think she'd choose to die with that info, and make *damn* sure they
didn't find out that she didn't have that kind of information.
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%ve...@sr.com
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Timothy W. Lynch
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>:)WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
>:)premiere, "Redemption II."
[on Sela's ancestry]
>Yeah, I think out of all the ideas tossed around, that was one of my least
>favorite. There's no reason to have Crosby play that character than
>any other. At least she's doing it well, though, or I'd be REALLY
>upset.
I don't agree. Denise is playing Sela the Romulan Commander superbly, I
agree. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't think she's doing a good job
with Sela the Daughter of Tasha, no.
>:)recurring villain back in "The Defector". For that matter, I think Denise
>:)herself did a good job as Sela the Commander; it was as Sela the Daughter of
>:)Tasha that she fell flat (not just the character; I thought that whole scene
>:)detailing her origins was pretty weak). If they hadn't thrown in the Tasha
>:)stuff, they could even have kept Sela. Sheesh.
>I hope no one keeps complaining about Crosby's acting abilities. Except
>for possibly the scene to which you're referring where she acted a little
>bit soft, I think she made (sorry to keep using this phrase) one tough
>bitch! The scene you're talking about isn't that bad. It had to be done;
>we had to get some explanation. It could have been much worse...
Yes. It could also have been much better. The "explanation" didn't work, it
was poorly placed, and Denise did a lousy job of sounding convincing.
>:)--Picard says to Guinan that Tasha died a year before Guinan came on board.
>:)Wrong. Not even close. "Skin of Evil" was almost the end of the first
>:)season, and Guinan was already on board by the beginning of the second. No
>:)more than a few months.
>You forgot about the summer months of re-runs, though. ;)
Oh, right. And since season 2 started late 'cos of the writers' strike, we're
probably talking 7 months or so. Getting there. :-)
>:)--There are still too many issues left unresolved from "Reunion". Gowron's
>:)clearly not lily-white, based on his actions HERE; I still think there's a
>:)strong possibility that he poisoned K'Mpec in the first place.
>Not sure what you quite mean by this... Could you explain it?
Sure. "Reunion" was set up, at least to me, to look like neither Gowron NOR
Duras was much of a leader--both seemed slimy. Gowron's actions there
certainly leave open the possibility that he was the one who poisoned K'Mpec.
And his actions in the challenge to his leadership here still played up that
he's not particularly honorable--but nothing came of it. Ho-hum.
>:)--In addition, we didn't even get any REACTIONS to her story. Picard was
>:)the only one we saw, and his was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too calm. I know that
>:)if
>I suppose, but remember that he was also already starting his "chess" game
>with her, and that could very well be part of it. He did say the situation
>woudn't influence any of his decisions.
His reactions were too temperate around Troi, around Crusher, and around Guinan
as well. No need for the chess game there.
>:)Plot: 7 for Data's command, 8 for the war, and ZERO for Sela's origins
>:)comes out to an even 5.
>The war wasn't that good. The only scenes with Worf were about basically
>how others were looking at him, whereas part one had him looking at the
>Klingons.
True, though I was looking more at the move/countermove parts of the war over
the rest of it--and they were good. The rest might bring it down a little
more, though.
>And the Sela's origins wasn't that bad...
Sez you. :-)
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
>>premiere, "Redemption II."
>>--Picard says to Guinan that Tasha died a year before Guinan came on board.
>>Wrong. Not even close. "Skin of Evil" was almost the end of the first
>>season, and Guinan was already on board by the beginning of the second. No
>>more than a few months.
> There were a lot of changes between season 1 and 2. Isn't that the same
>time that Riker got the beard, Beverly left the ship, and Diana Muldaur
>came on.
Yyyyes, that's true...
>And thanks to my handy TNG Program Guide we see that Skin of Evil
>happened at SD 41601.3, and the Child (Guinan's first episode) happens on
>42073.1. I'm not sure how Stardates work, but it appears that there was
>something just under 500 stardates between the 2 episodes. How much time is
>that for us earthlings?
Even if we knew the conversion :-), season 1 stardates can't be trusted--they
were in random order. "Angel One", for example, is in the 41900's, but Tasha's
very much alive at the time. I'll take them in broadcast order.
>>--Not so much a gripe as an observation: the studio, even after this, is
>>still insisting Data has no emotions? Yeah. Uh-huh. Bridge, please. :-)
>>Sorry, but that was one miffed android on the Sutherland.
> I don't know. I kind of like this direction for Data. It allowed him to
>shoe frustration in a command situation, without loosing his cool as
>aregular person with emotions would have in the same situation. Of course
>the situation stemmed from the fact that Data has no emotions, so I'm not
>sure where that leaves us...
I don't think that the "no emotions" claim can fit with this. I do think that
Data _thinks_ he has no emotions; he's just wrong. :-) But I think this
direction is an interesting one as well; I wish they'd given it more time than
this...
> Both of these are true, but can't be possible to predict the outcome of
>something that may or may not happen in the past when you are in the
>future. I'm not saying this makes it nay more plausible, but...
I know. I just don't accept the argument as making it more plausible, as you
say. :-)
>>3) Sela looks too damned old to be a mere 22 1/2. She's also too high in
>>rank. The Romulans are going to trust someone who was the daughter of a
>>prisoner from the future (clearly they know this; Sela mentioned it enough
>>times) enough to make her a full Commander and to put her in charge of an
>>operation as big as both the one in "The Mind's Eye" and the one here?
>>Again, no. I don't buy it.
> I didn't know that we were ever given any information on the normal
>ageing process for the Romulans. They are an alien race, and the normal
>rules just don't aplly to them.
She's half human. And the rank issue is at least as important.
[on not being able to see Geordi's reactions, both to Sela and to Romulans in
general after "The Mind's Eye"]
> I also didn't think about the Geordi tie in, and while it would have
>been nice to see his reactions to the whole situation with the Romulans,
>that would have just been a bit much even for a 2-part season opener, I
>think.
That's why Sela should've been in a completely different show, IMHO.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
>>premiere, "Redemption II."
And thus opens the floodgates...:-)
>>--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
>>part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
>>quickly, especially with no explanation.
>I think there were two factors at work here. First, we don't know for sure
>that Worf was going to serve on Gowron's ship.
Yes, we do. Worf said to Picard while he was packing that he was going to be
serving on the Bortas as weapons officer.
>factor is time. Although the Star Date didn't change by too much, it
>seemed (to me, at least) that there had been some time passing between
>the episodes.
Felt like 2-3 weeks to me. I think it's possible, certainly; but a quick
throwaway line about the transfer would be in order, one would think.
>With regard to the Duras family sisters, I thought the actresses who played
>Lursa and B'Etor were a bit too hammy....they played up the "evil
>villanesses" bit too much.
Much more so than in part 1, certainly. Pity--I rather liked them there.
>>--Guinan basically blaming Picard for this whole situation. *What?* Putting
>>aside the issue of Picard "sending" Tasha back (a distortion of the events of
>>YE, but an understandable one given murky data and probable bitterness on
>>Tasha's part), none of that implies that Picard is in any way responsible for
>>the problems facing the Klingons.
>Yep. Guinan was way out of line, here.
I've been told privately that this isn't the way Ron Moore originally wrote it.
Originally, Guinan was referring _only_ to Sela's existence, not the whole
mess. The line was changed for some reason--much to the worse, I think.
>One last note (and it has been mentioned elsewhere): I was extremely
>bothered by Worf's request to return to duty, and Picard's immediate
>acceptance. I think that should have been handled with a little more
>forethought and detail on the part of the writers.
Like some, yes. :-)
Tim Lynch
WEISSERT THOMAS PAUL
is bothered by the blatent reality that if only 22(23) years had gone by
since the Enterprise C was in battle and Tasha returned and survived at
all, that, since she was obviously older than 23+, she then existed at
two places in the same universe at the "same" time (Newtonian universe)?
And every minute she survived it got worse up until the Skin of Evil.
I grant that any time travel has its problems, but this is gross and
no one has yet mentioned it.
Also this pandering to someone's idealized trek fan, to keep the fans
placated by bringing her back is no excuse for bad writing.
Tom Weissert
Nicholas C. Hester
(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
>
>Now, more coherent gripes. Why, why, why, WHY did they have to do this?
>They could have brought her back as an ordinary scheming Romulan, or even one
>who actually _was_ surgically altered to screw around with Picard's mind. (Of
>course, they could go back and establish this later--but if they do that, I
>think they're just going to manage to alienate the *other* half of the people
>who are concerned, while doing nothing to win back the half they've just
>pissed off.)
>
>But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
>implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
>late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
Implausible to you.
>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
And for most of them it was. Just not for Tasha.
>2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
>Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
>knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they could
>give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to self-destruct
>and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of the Ent-C that
>*I* saw.
Really? I say that if enough of the ships computer and controls were
destroyed that they'd abondon ship and try escape. The self-destruct
may no longer have been an option.
>3) Sela looks too damned old to be a mere 22 1/2. She's also too high in
>rank. The Romulans are going to trust someone who was the daughter of a
>prisoner from the future (clearly they know this; Sela mentioned it enough
>times) enough to make her a full Commander and to put her in charge of an
>operation as big as both the one in "The Mind's Eye" and the one here? Again,
>no. I don't buy it.
>
>I might have been able to buy ONE of these three coincidences at any given
>time. Never all three--not under any circumstances.
I think that you're just pissed 'cause they didn't do it they way you
wanted it done. I, however, saw this coming from the end of last season.
>--In addition, we didn't even get any REACTIONS to her story. Picard was the
>only one we saw, and his was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too calm. I know that if
>someone told me "oh, by the way, you ordered back an alternate version of one
>of your dead officers into the past 24 years ago, and she happened to be
>captured and give birth to me, even though you don't remember any of this as
>ever happening," I'd go an awful lot beyond a calm skepticism. As for the
>others...Worf sees Sela on the screen while imprisoned, and has NO reaction?
Can you say poorly written scenes? I knew you could.
I give it an 8.5
-+- -+
Nicholas C. Hester | "Capitalism says you can win, Socialism |
ia8...@Maine.Bitnet | says you can break even, and Religion |
ia8...@Maine.Maine.edu | says you can join another game." |
-+- -+
John Switzer
>With all this hoopla over Tasha's return, how come nobody out there
>is bothered by the blatent reality that if only 22(23) years had gone by
>since the Enterprise C was in battle and Tasha returned and survived at
>all, that, since she was obviously older than 23+, she then existed at
>two places in the same universe at the "same" time (Newtonian universe)?
So? What's the problem? It doesn't violate any known laws of physics, and
if you're worried about conservation of mass and energy, it seems obvious
that the process of travelling through time would require enough energy
to balance out the transfer of mass. (In other words, if 120 lbs goes
through time, enough energy has to be expended in the outgoing time period
to balance out the extra mass in the incoming time period.)
--
John Switzer | "My own brother, a god-d*mned,
| sh*t-sucking vampire! Wait till
74076...@Compuserve.com | mom finds out, buddy!"
j...@netcom.com |--from Lost Boys
Mr. Smiley Face
:)>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
:)>premiere, "Redemption II." Anyone proceeding beyond this point had
:)>
:)>And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
:)>First, a quick scream of anguish:
:)>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
:)>Thanks. I needed that. :-)
:) Apparantly so...
:)>Now, more coherent gripes. Why, why, why, WHY did they have to do this?
:)>They could have brought her back as an ordinary scheming Romulan, or even
:)>one who actually _was_ surgically altered to screw around with Picard's
:)>mind. (Of course, they could go back and establish this later--but if they
:)>do that, I think they're just going to manage to alienate the *other* half
:)>of the people who are concerned, while doing nothing to win back the half
:)>they've just pissed off.)
:) They had to know that the majority of fandom whas split down the middle
:)on the whole Tasha debate. Even if they pay only cursory attention to the
:)stuff that goes on at the cons. It really did seem like the easy way out,
:)but it really worked well for a lot of people. I guess those of us that
:)didn't want any connection will have to suck it up...
But they could have at least picked an explanation that at least some people
liked. Out of all the possible Tasha connections, this was one of the worst.
Kyle Jones
> is bothered by the blatent reality that if only 22(23) years had gone by
> since the Enterprise C was in battle and Tasha returned and survived at
Well, we can attribute her looking older to living under a
brighter sun all her life. The Roms have darker hides than the
typical Caucasian and their hides look tougher, too.
> [...] she then existed at two places in the same universe at
> the "same" time (Newtonian universe)? And every minute she
> survived it got worse up until the Skin of Evil.
"Skin of Evil" makes no difference. Whether she was dead or
unborn, the atoms and energy that made up Tasha had always been
around. So any sort of time travel, forward or backward, means
duplication or matter and energy. When the Ent-C went through
the rift the first time there was duplication. When it went back
through there was further duplication, since the Ent-C crew
breathed, ingested and excreted while they were in the future,
and thereby exchanged some atoms from the past with those of the
future.
Ivan A. Gonzales
B
>
>>>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>>>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>>>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>>>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>>>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
>any possibility they could survive?" Presumably, he was speaking of the
>ship as a whole. The Romulans are busy fighting a Klingon force over this
>base; are they REALLY going to take the time out to capture a few prisoners?
For one thing, you can take a look at military history, and there are several
instances where a much smaller and seemingly insignificant force survived
and even defeated a greater force. Also, why would anyone want to capture
prisoners? It's certainly easier and safer to simply kill them, yet it has
been done. You state the fact that the Romulans were busy fighting Klingons
at the time. Exactly. If they can cripple the ship, are they going to take
the time to destroy the ship. I think that they captured the prisoners after
they had already won the batte.
>
>Then at the very least, *Tasha*, who would well know that her future knowledge
>could give the Romulans a hell of an edge (another reason I've been opposed to
>the idea; if the Romulans captured people off the Ent-C with knowledge of 22
>years of technology, they should be well ahead of the Federation militarily by
>now), should have stuck a phaser in her ribs rather than let herself be
>captured, and should _never_, _ever_, have given herself over as consort to a
>Romulan higher-up.
There is a HUGE difference between setting a ship to self-destruct and
actually physically taking your own life. I find the notion that Tasha
would simply commit suicide a little disburbing. She is a surviver, and
I think if she saw the slimmest chance for survival, she would take it.
as a consort, there were living breathing people's lives depending on her
desicion. The logical desicion is not always going to overshadow the
emotional one.
--
Jose G.
"It's not safe out here. It's wonderous, with treasures
to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's
not for the timid." - Q in "Q Who"
Fisher
>
>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
>
I thought that the Data that said that was from the _alternate_ timeline,
and not "our" Data. So, sending them back changed the outcome, so there
were survivors???
-steve
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1991Sep26.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu
>(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
Could you keep the spoiler protection in next time, Nicholas? Others will
love you to pieces for it. :-)
Spoilers for "Redemption II":
[on Sela's origins]
>>But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
>>implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
>>late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
>Implausible to you.
I don't recall saying otherwise.
>>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
>And for most of them it was. Just not for Tasha.
Picard didn't ask "is there any possibility they can win?" He asked "is there
any possibility they could survive?" Presumably, he was speaking of the
ship as a whole. The Romulans are busy fighting a Klingon force over this
base; are they REALLY going to take the time out to capture a few prisoners?
>>2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
>>Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
>>knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they
>>could give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to self-
>>destruct and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of the
>>Ent-C that *I* saw.
>Really? I say that if enough of the ships computer and controls were
>destroyed that they'd abondon ship and try escape. The self-destruct
>may no longer have been an option.
Then at the very least, *Tasha*, who would well know that her future knowledge
could give the Romulans a hell of an edge (another reason I've been opposed to
the idea; if the Romulans captured people off the Ent-C with knowledge of 22
years of technology, they should be well ahead of the Federation militarily by
now), should have stuck a phaser in her ribs rather than let herself be
captured, and should _never_, _ever_, have given herself over as consort to a
Romulan higher-up.
>I think that you're just pissed 'cause they didn't do it they way you
>wanted it done. I, however, saw this coming from the end of last season.
There wasn't any particular way I "wanted it done". There were several ways I
very definitely did NOT want it done, for reasons of plausibilty. This one
led the entire smegging pack.
I also saw it coming from last season. I hoped I was wrong.
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"We see here definitive proof that the universe does have mass..."
--Marc Davis, Caltech Centennial Symposium on Large-Scale Structure
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1991Sep26.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
Could we all *PLEASE* keep the spoiler warnings and protections intact until
at _least_ Monday, 9/30? Thanks.
>>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
>>
>I thought that the Data that said that was from the _alternate_ timeline,
>and not "our" Data. So, sending them back changed the outcome, so there
>were survivors???
This being the alternate Data doesn't make him any less accurate, IMHO. And
he was discussing their chances of survival _if they went back_. I don't see
how it can be argued that their going back changed the odds of them surviving
the battle they were coming back to.
In other words, I don't believe that the Ent-C could change its *own* future.
And as I've outlined in other articles, even if we stretch plausibility enough
to have the Romulans take time out of their battle *in Klingon space* to
take a few prisoners, Tasha of all people should have at the very least stuck
a phaser in her ribs rather than let her future knowledge be captured.
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
Timothy W. Lynch
>>>In article <1991Sep26.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu
>>>(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
>>
>>
>>Spoilers for "Redemption II":
[on Sela's origins and the fate of the Enterprise-C]
>>Picard didn't ask "is there any possibility they can win?" He asked "is
>>there any possibility they could survive?" Presumably, he was speaking of the
>>ship as a whole. The Romulans are busy fighting a Klingon force over this
>>base; are they REALLY going to take the time out to capture a few prisoners?
> For one thing, you can take a look at military history, and there are several
> instances where a much smaller and seemingly insignificant force survived
> and even defeated a greater force. Also, why would anyone want to capture
> prisoners? It's certainly easier and safer to simply kill them, yet it has
> been done. You state the fact that the Romulans were busy fighting Klingons
> at the time. Exactly. If they can cripple the ship, are they going to take
> the time to destroy the ship.
Yes. Your first argument is an excellent illustration as to why. Considering
that, from their perspective, they absolutely pummeled this ship, and it then
vanished out of sight for a few moments and came back fighting, they would
probably want to atomize the thing ASAP. Nothing like magic tricks to confuse
the enemy.
And I don't agree with the application of your first argument. This is *DATA*
we're talking about--remember, the guy who quotes probabilities accurately to
as many significant figures as you want. He didn't say "there is virtually
no probability they would survive," he said "None, sir." None.
> I think that they captured the prisoners after they had already won the
> battle.
And I'm sure that that's what was intended by Moore when he wrote this. I
just don't find it believable.
>>Then at the very least, *Tasha*, who would well know that her future know-
>>ledge could give the Romulans a hell of an edge (another reason I've been
>>opposed to the idea; if the Romulans captured people off the Ent-C with
>>knowledge of 22 years of technology, they should be well ahead of the
>>Federation militarily by now), should have stuck a phaser in her ribs rather
>>than let herself be captured, and should _never_, _ever_, have given herself
>>over as consort to a Romulan higher-up.
> There is a HUGE difference between setting a ship to self-destruct and
> actually physically taking your own life. I find the notion that Tasha
> would simply commit suicide a little disburbing. She is a surviver, and
> I think if she saw the slimmest chance for survival, she would take it.
She's a survivor. She's also a Starfleet officer, and one who is viscerally
loyal to the Federation--that's established as far back as you care to look.
There is no WAY she would let herself end up in a position where she could
damage the Federation if there was any possible way to prevent it.
> as a consort, there were living breathing people's lives depending on her
> desicion.
She should have killed herself well before the issue came up--like, as soon as
she realized she was going to be captured. (If she'd decided to "survive"
and help everyone else, why did she decide to try to escape five years later?
Did she suddenly cease to care?)
> The logical desicion is not always going to overshadow the emotional one.
Correct. I think Tasha had no reason in either logic or emotion to act as
the RII writers have claimed.
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"Those whose opinions of models have been criticized are now invited to
speculate on the speaker's youth and ancestry."
--Roger Blandford, Caltech Centennial Symposium on Large-Scale Structure
Horowitz, Irwin Kenneth
>In other words, I don't believe that the Ent-C could change its *own* future.
>And as I've outlined in other articles, even if we stretch plausibility enough
>to have the Romulans take time out of their battle *in Klingon space* to
>take a few prisoners, Tasha of all people should have at the very least stuck
>a phaser in her ribs rather than let her future knowledge be captured.
>
Gee, this is going to be a new experience, as I attempt to refute Tim's
position on this...
Let us take as a plausibility argument the possibility of the crew of the
Ent-C being knocked unconcious by the Romulan volley as soon as they returned
to the past, but w/o the ship being destroyed. A Romulan boarding party
locates the survivors and captures them. Tasha never has a chance to commit
suicide (at least at this point) b/c the next thing she conciously experiences
is the inside of a Romulan holding cell (I trust they don't keep any phasers
handy in one of these). Also, let us assume that while Tasha is knowledgable
in the operation of the defenses of the Ent-D, she may not be competant in
the design and construction of such materials. Given the option of having
all of her fellow crewmates executed (as well as herself), she may have
sacrificed her freedom for their lives. In addition, this Tasha knew the
Klingons as the "ENEMY" and not necessarily the Romulans, who were merely
the "enemy" (note emphasis). Mind you, this is not meant to explain what
did happen, but merely to suggest a possible alternative that explains the
observed facts.
Of course, another possibility is that Sela was lying through her teeth :-)
and while the Roms did capture Tasha at Norendra III, after finding out just
minimal information from her, she did succeed in killing herself. From this
info, Sela was surgically altered to resemble Tasha and f**k up Picard's
mind :-).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Irwin Horowitz |"Suppose they went nowhere?"-McCoy
Astronomy Department |"Then this will be your big chance
California Institute of Technology | to get away from it all!"-Kirk
ir...@iago.caltech.edu | from STII:TWOK
i...@deimos.caltech.edu |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KELSEY, Michael H.
says:
>
>In article <1991Sep27.1...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> U
>weis...@ucsu.Colorado.ED
>(WEISSERT THOMAS PAUL) writes:
>>With all this hoopla over Tasha's return, how come nobody out there
>>is bothered by the blatent reality that if only 22(23) years had gone by
>>since the Enterprise C was in battle and Tasha returned and survived at
>>all, that, since she was obviously older than 23+, she then existed at
>>two places in the same universe at the "same" time (Newtonian universe)?
>
>So? What's the problem? It doesn't violate any known laws of physics, and
>if you're worried about conservation of mass and energy, it seems obvious
>that the process of travelling through time would require enough energy
>to balance out the transfer of mass. (In other words, if 120 lbs goes
>through time, enough energy has to be expended in the outgoing time period
>to balance out the extra mass in the incoming time period.)
Um, *ahem*, I believe you misspoke yourself ther Mr. Switzer. "Conservation
of mass and energy" ***ARE*** known laws of physics, and time travel most
certainly violates them. Any form of time _travel_, that is the movement
of some object from one time to another violates the following laws of
physics:
o Conservation of mass
o Conservation of energy
o Conservation of momentum
o Conservation of angular momentum
o Conservation of electric charge
o Conservation of parity
o Conservation of lepton family number
o Conservation of baryon number
o Conservation of charge conjugation parity
and any other "conservation" law I might have missed. Why? Because of the
word CONSERVATION. A conserved quantity is something which does not have a
time derivative! In any reference frame, you may select any two slices of
constant time, say t1 to t1+dt and t2 to t2+dt, and evaluate a conserved
quantity for each slice. The value MUST be the same in both slices, or the
quantity is not conserved.
Now, consider an object which travels in time, either into the past OR into
the future. Let us consider energy, which includes the rest mass of the time
travel device plus whatever kinetic energy it has. I pick my first time slice
(t1,t1+dt) to be exactly 1E-15 seconds BEFORE the time travel device *leaves*
where/when it is. Let the total energy of the Universe be E(t1) [yes, I am
assuming this is a finite quantity, we can pick a suitably bounded finite
region if you wish] and the energy of the time travel device be E'. Now,
I pick my second time slice (t2,t2+dt) to be exactly 1E-15 seconds AFTER the
time travel device leaves where/when it is. The time travel device has LEFT,
so the total energy of the universe then is E(t2) = E(t1) - E' != E(t1). So
energy has NOT been conserved.
You cannot get around this problem by saying the energy E' reappears at some
other time. The conservation laws are TIME INDEPENDENT.
In order to write a time travel story, the conservation laws as we know them
MUST be *thrown away*. In throwing them away, we allow for very entertaining
exercises in logic, internal consistency, and free-will vs. determinism. But
it is well to remember that time travel is completely inconsistent with the
"laws" of physics we have developed and tested over the past four centuries.
They may not be right, but they have worked extremely well so far and should
not be discarded cavalierly.
-- Mike Kelsey
[ My opinions are not endorsed by SLAC, Caltech, or the US government ]
What is your _name_? "kel...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu"
What is your _quest_? "To get a Ph.D. in high-energy physics"
When will you _finish_? "I don't know. Waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh..."
Ivan A. Gonzales
>>>
>>>
>>>Spoilers for "Redemption II":
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>And I don't agree with the application of your first argument. This is *DATA*
>we're talking about--remember, the guy who quotes probabilities accurately to
>as many significant figures as you want. He didn't say "there is virtually
>no probability they would survive," he said "None, sir." None.
Yes, Data is extremely accurate at predicting *mathematical* probability
but theres no way he could account for the unknown factors. Namely, human
failings, Romulan failings, plans of attack that he could not account for
because the people on board the Enterprise C hadn't thought of them yet.
Also, Data made this prediction before he was aware that Tasha was going to
be on board. Now, if as you say, Tasha had information so valuable that
she should commit suicide before letting it into Romulan hands, certainly
she could effect the outcome against the Romulans. Data could not have
accounted for even this.
>
>
>And I'm sure that that's what was intended by Moore when he wrote this. I
>just don't find it believable.
When else do you take prisoners except after the battle is over?
>
>She's a survivor. She's also a Starfleet officer, and one who is viscerally
>loyal to the Federation--that's established as far back as you care to look.
>There is no WAY she would let herself end up in a position where she could
>damage the Federation if there was any possible way to prevent it.
>She should have killed herself well before the issue came up--like, as soon as
>she realized she was going to be captured. (If she'd decided to "survive"
>and help everyone else, why did she decide to try to escape five years later?
>Did she suddenly cease to care?)
Again, suicide is not so simple a matter. I know that I would not kill
myself regardless of the circumstances, much less to protect someone else's
secrets. I think that *anything* is preferable to throwing your life
away. As to why did she "cease to care", caring becomes very difficult
after having to live in such an unbearable situation for so long. Or perhaps
they had already been killed in the years since their capture.
>
>
>Correct. I think Tasha had no reason in either logic or emotion to act as
>the RII writers have claimed.
>
No reason? People who she cared about, and one man she perhaps thought she
loved, had their lives hanging on her decision.
Chris LaFournaise
>Spoilers for "Redemption II":
>
>[on Sela's origins]
>
>>>But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
>>>implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
>>>late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
[..]
>if the Romulans captured people off the Ent-C with knowledge of 22
>years of technology, they should be well ahead of the Federation militarily by
>now), should have stuck a phaser in her ribs rather than let herself be
>captured, and should _never_, _ever_, have given herself over as consort to a
>Romulan higher-up.
>
I wonder if we are going to hear what Tasha's SISTER is going to say about
all this mess.
Really, what is the preoccupation here with Tasha Yar. We've seen her come
and go, we've seen her sister (and made a big deal about THAT), and now we
have Crosby BACK as the lovechild of an enemy commander who may or may not
have info about the future. Please.
It is my hope that we can continue to see the Sela character in future
episodes, but lets forget the Tasha connection altogether. It made an
interesting cliffhanger (and that's all it WAS, im my opinon), but enough is
enough.
-Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris LaFournaise laf...@mist.cs.orst.edu
Hades
>:) Apparantly so...
Well, I'm one of the people who didn't like it, but there is no way for
us few on the net to really know what the massess think about the whole
situation. Even if you were to use the net as a sample population (Which
would go against all of the statistical trinign I have had on random
samples ;->) you would still end of with pleasing about half of the people,
which is probably a pretty valid percentage to Paramount. And I'm almost
sure that it is defiantely more than that.....
--
-Hades (aka. The Hustler) | "Why do people continually doubt my
Brian V. Hughes | professional ethics?" -Buck Godot
Mac Database Administrator |
Tony Minkoff
Treksplanations:
Q: Why didn't Tasha kill herself before being captured?
A: The Ent-C took a hit which sent something flying across the
bridge, which conveniently struck Tasha in the head and rendered her
unconscious. She remained unconscious until captured.
Q: Why couldn't the Romulans use her knowledge from 22 years in the
future to gain an overwhelming technological advantage vs. the Feds?
A1: The Romulan who took her as a consort, who was evidently rather
powerful in the Romulan heirarchy, loved her too much to allow
brutal Romulan interrogation methods to be used on her. Since she
would certainly not volunteer any information, anything she knew
died with her.
A2: Nobody knew she was from the future. Those who heard the story
didn't believe it. Except for a credulous four-year-old who'll
believe anything Mommy says...
How'm I doin' so far? Any other Q's?
Tony
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1991Sep27....@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes...
Spoilers for "Redemption II"...
Irwin presents, in the latest article references above, a possible scenario
for how Sela came about, to see if it's something I can buy. :-) In brief,
his argument goes thusly:
1) The Ent-C is damaged during the battle--most of the crew are killed, a few
are simply knocked unconscious.
2) The Romulans, at the end of the battle, beam over and take the few survi-
vors back with them.
3) Tasha is unconscious until she wakes up in a cell, so has no chance to
stick a phaser in her ribs.
4) Fed security is not a concern because Tasha knows little about the design
and construction of future defenses.
5) Given this, she decided to trade her freedom for the other survivors'
lives.
6) Further, she probably finds Romulans less objectionable than Klingons,
given her own origins.
Hopefully that's an accurate summary. Now, one at a time:
1) This is the one I can't swallow at all. The odds of a particular shot
just _happening_ to kill or mortally injure most people, yet leaving a few
remarkably unharmed, including our beloved Tasha, *and simultaneously doing
little enough damage to the ship that it survives the rest of the battle
without an active crew*, strike me as just slightly above those of me sprouting
wings in the next 40 seconds.
Further, the Romulans are in the middle of a battle. And the Ent-C, from
their standpoint, was beaten to all hell, then suddenly vanished for a few
seconds, then came back relatively intact. If you're faced with an enemy that
can do THAT, you do NOT leave it lying around after a lucky shot--you shoot to
kill and be done with it.
2) The base sent out a distress call--the Warbirds were, presumably, at least
somewhat damaged by the battle. What are the odds of them hanging around over
the base long enough to take prisoners they don't need?
3) Plausible--but Tasha being Tasha, I would expect her to either kill herself
or be killed in an abortive escape attempt almost immediately, probably the
former.
4) She knows enough. Hell, she knows future Federation *tactics* backwards
and forwards--it's her job. And tactics, methinks, are among the most impor-
tant items to safeguard. She knows typical communication patterns and
general fleet dispersal in wartime. None are specifically applicable, but
all give the Romulans a HUGE advantage in knowing their enemy.
5-6) (6) is plausible enough, but not relevant, IMHO. (5) would work IF
I accepted the first four items. I don't. All are implausible to some extent,
(1) and (2) being IMHO the largest.
Hey, I think I've managed to neatly sum up my own arguments. Now I can just
refer people to this article. Thanks, Irwin. :-)
>Of course, another possibility is that Sela was lying through her teeth :-)
>and while the Roms did capture Tasha at Norendra III, after finding out just
>minimal information from her, she did succeed in killing herself. From this
>info, Sela was surgically altered to resemble Tasha and f**k up Picard's
>mind :-).
Bleeeeah. So we're going to insert cowardice in their convictions along WITH
a mind-numbingly dumb idea? Gee, I know *I'd* be flattered. :-)
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
Spoilers for "Redemption II":
> Treksplanations:
I refer you to my response to Irwin Horowitz, elsewhere in this thread. I
think it pretty much deals with your suggestions. (In other words, no, I
don't buy it. :-) )
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
Plausibility arguments aside, there are other reasons I don't care for Sela's
origins.
They have managed to cheapen most of the drama in "Yesterday's Enterprise", as
far as I'm concerned. Tasha's sacrifice, Picard's choice, the Ent-C's crew's
choices to head back at all--all have now basically gone to naught. Sure,
they managed to avert the war then; but now things are back in a similar
boat. Oh--and Tasha originally went back to make her death count for some-
thing, right? Would someone please explain how being gunned down in a
Romulan suburb after being a war bride for five years is in any way better than
her death at the hands of Armus? No. Not me. "Yesterday's Enterprise" gave
Tasha a sacrifice and a death that meant something. RII killed that.
A few people, here and there, have said that they feel BOBW1 was cheapened by
the problems in BOBW2. I didn't and don't agree with that--but at least I now
have a much better understanding of how they feel.
And the band plays on...
Tim Lynch
Dave Schaumann
>
> Treksplanations:
>Q: Why didn't Tasha kill herself before being captured?
>
>A: The Ent-C took a hit which sent something flying across the
>bridge, which conveniently struck Tasha in the head and rendered her
>unconscious. She remained unconscious until captured.
I have an alternate explanation based on this same base hypothesis.
Tasha sustained a head injury in the battle that caused amnesia.
Also, if we suppose that this amnesia lasted 4 years, this answers
your second question as well.
>Q: Why couldn't the Romulans use her knowledge from 22 years in the
>future to gain an overwhelming technological advantage vs. the Feds?
It also answers another question: why did Tasha wait 4 years before
attempting escape? Answer: she didn't think she had reason to until
her memories start coming back.
I really hope the writers use this idea, if these events are to be
explored further (which seems likely, if and when we see Sela again).
(BTW, is that the correct spelling? I saw someone spell it "Cilla"...)
Since the ancestor of this article is Tim's review, I'd like to address
another objection he had: why would the Romulans wish to bother taking
prisoners?
My answer: the same reason Kirk & Co. went to so much trouble to steal
a cloaking device in "The Enterprise Incident": tactical advantage.
We know the Romulans and the Federation have been enemies since the
time of TOS, and it would appear the situation is unchanged in TNG.
Imagine the advantage of capturing the Enterprise-C and/or her bridge
crew intact! In the case of the battle of Norendra 3, it would seem a
golden opportunity for the Romulans, since they have the Enterprise-C
on the ropes and alone...
In other words, I think it would be an enormous intelligence coup for
the Romulans to capture the bridge crew if they could.
--
_
_ //\miga! | Dave Schaumann | My folks went to uunet.uu.net, and
\X/~~\ | da...@cs.arizona.edu | all I got was this lousy .sig quote!
Nicholas C. Hester
from being spoilered, in my FIRST posting.
And speaking of those lines....
In article <1991Sep27....@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu
(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
>
>[on Sela's origins]
>
>>>But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
>>>implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
>>>late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
>
>>Implausible to you.
>
>I don't recall saying otherwise.
Ah, but I DON'T see it as completely implausible, which is what I was
saying, just using those little short cuts that English (and probably
other languages) allow to express more than was said. Unless you
aren't mapping these things out correctly. ;)
>>>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>>>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>>>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>
>>And for most of them it was. Just not for Tasha.
>
>Picard didn't ask "is there any possibility they can win?" He asked "is there
>any possibility they could survive?" Presumably, he was speaking of the
>ship as a whole. The Romulans are busy fighting a Klingon force over this
>base; are they REALLY going to take the time out to capture a few prisoners?
Possibly, if there are any found alive in the ship after it had been
rendered offensively inoperable. If it could be of any use to them
they might try to salvage it and anyone aboard.
I'm sorry, but Data is not omniscient.
>>Really? I say that if enough of the ships computer and controls were
>>destroyed that they'd abondon ship and try escape. The self-destruct
>>may no longer have been an option.
>
>Then at the very least, *Tasha*, who would well know that her future knowledge
>could give the Romulans a hell of an edge (another reason I've been opposed to
>the idea; if the Romulans captured people off the Ent-C with knowledge of 22
>years of technology, they should be well ahead of the Federation militarily by
>now), should have stuck a phaser in her ribs rather than let herself be
>captured, and should _never_, _ever_, have given herself over as consort to a
>Romulan higher-up.
What if, perhaps, Tasha was injured and rendered unconscious? And/or there
weren't enough people left to keep up the fight and the ship was too
heavily damaged? I don't think that she'd have much of a choice of what
was going to happen to her in that instance. She could have decided that
it's best to live and try to escape, giving up as little info as possible.
The Romulans do seem to have made the greatest technological jump of
the three, so they got the info from somewhere.
OH, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! But THAT could never have happened!!!
>>I think that you're just pissed 'cause they didn't do it they way you
>>wanted it done. I, however, saw this coming from the end of last season.
>
>There wasn't any particular way I "wanted it done". There were several ways I
>very definitely did NOT want it done, for reasons of plausibilty. This one
>led the entire smegging pack.
Hey, it was better than having the character come back to life, wasn't it?
Hey, I admit that playing a Romulan w/no connection to Tasha would have
been good. But, I don't think that hooking the character up with her
is a bad way to go. Consider, they have a new plot line to figure out
the mystery of her origins.
The problem lies with this whether thread is implausible. I don't think it is.
I think that this is no worse than bringing her back as a regular Romulan.
Alooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-HA!!!!
-Nick
Mitchell Maltenfort
The question of why Tasha submitted was explained very clearly by
Sela as she told Picard her story: Tasha was told that if she submitted, the
other survivors would be spared. Tasha put the others' lives before her own.
I do hope they bring her back - it wouldn't be the first time an SF character
dodged execution.
Mitch Maltenfort
Robert J. Granvin
|>Q: Why didn't Tasha kill herself before being captured?
|>
|>A: The Ent-C took a hit which sent something flying across the
|>bridge, which conveniently struck Tasha in the head and rendered her
|>unconscious. She remained unconscious until captured.
|
|I have an alternate explanation based on this same base hypothesis.
|Tasha sustained a head injury in the battle that caused amnesia.
|
|Also, if we suppose that this amnesia lasted 4 years, this answers
|your second question as well.
On the other hand, perhaps Tasha is like most of us - we can accept
our own deaths, but we don't take suicide lightly.
Thinking about it, if there is _any_ chance for survival, or even the
simple _desire_ to live, would you choose to kill yourself for some
sort of ideal that no one would ever know about?
On the same theme, some people are just simply incapable of committing
suicide.
|>Q: Why couldn't the Romulans use her knowledge from 22 years in the
|>future to gain an overwhelming technological advantage vs. the Feds?
|
|It also answers another question: why did Tasha wait 4 years before
|attempting escape? Answer: she didn't think she had reason to until
|her memories start coming back.
4 years is hardly a long time. One could ask why Joseph Cicippio
or Terry Waite haven't attempted escape from Lebanon yet. After all,
that is a relatively small area of land compared to trying to escape
from the homeworld in the middle of a large multi-stellar system
empire. (i.e., where would you go, and how would you get there?)
When you attempt an escape, you usually do so when the odds are in your
favor and you have a _chance_ to get out. The other reason for escape
is desperation. It's the last opportunity for a chance at survival.
If you attempt an escape, you wait for the oppotunities as long as they
have the possibility of existing. Otherwise your chances at failure
are astronomically high. If that's four years from now, so be it.
--
Robert J. Granvin \\\\\\\\ r...@sialis.com : INTERNET
Southern Minnesota Wing \\\ ...uunet!rosevax!sialis!rjg : UUCP
Confederate Air Force \\\\\\ rjg%siali...@uunet.uu.net : BITNET
`Burn, Donald, Burn!'
James Gordon Currie
Well, since I have absolutely no opinion about the possibility of
the "new" Romulan being Tasha'a daughter, I have only one little problem with
Tim's somewhat lengthy posting... The Ent-C would have returned to it's own
time at the *same* instant it left. So, for all intents and purposes, it never
left it's own time. That is if I remember the dialogue of teh show correctly.
If not, feh, it's only a TV show...
Ciao
J G Currie.
James Gordon Currie
Does that mean all the men *and* women who died in all the wars
we've fought in our history, escaping from POW camps, or the "local"
equivalent didn't die bravely, with honour, or most importantly, with
purpose? If you say "yes", you cheapen their sacrifice. Tasha's situation was
*exactly* the same... Ever here a saying about guilded cages? A prison needn't
be made of walls and bars... For Tasha, Romulus was as much a prison as "the
Rock" in San Francisco harbour ever was. And she *was* a prisoner of war.
If you can find a way out of that, without resorting to circular logic, or the
ever present "it's only a TV show." (which I've used *many* times on this .net)
I'd *love* to see/read it. :)
Ciao
J G Currie.
Horowitz, Irwin Kenneth
give a most appropriate example of just this result occuring...
In YE, when the wormhole was created and the Ent-C passed through, the crew
had all been knocked out or killed as a result of the Romulan attack. There
have been many such examples in both TOS and TNG of the crew being knocked out
while the ship still remains intact. I still feel that this is entirely
plausible. Also, I did not mean to suggest that our beloved Tasha was not
injured in that attack, just that she wasn't killed.
>
>Further, the Romulans are in the middle of a battle. And the Ent-C, from
>their standpoint, was beaten to all hell, then suddenly vanished for a few
>seconds, then came back relatively intact. If you're faced with an enemy that
>can do THAT, you do NOT leave it lying around after a lucky shot--you shoot to
>kill and be done with it.
>
As someone else has posted, according to what Data said in YE, the disappearence
and reappearance on the Ent-C at Norendra III was virtually instantaneous, so
the Roms have no reason to believe that something weird was happening with
that ship.
>
>2) The base sent out a distress call--the Warbirds were, presumably, at least
>somewhat damaged by the battle. What are the odds of them hanging around over
>the base long enough to take prisoners they don't need?
>
Agreed, however, we don't know how much time they may have had after the battle
to try to capture the Ent-C intact (that would be a real coup that the Roms
would not pass up lightly) as well as any surviving crew members.
>
>3) Plausible--but Tasha being Tasha, I would expect her to either kill herself
>or be killed in an abortive escape attempt almost immediately, probably the
>former.
>
If given the opportunity to attempt escape (the Roms would probably take
special care that this "unusual" crew member of the Ent-C didn't escape or
commit suicide).
>
>4) She knows enough. Hell, she knows future Federation *tactics* backwards
>and forwards--it's her job. And tactics, methinks, are among the most impor-
>tant items to safeguard. She knows typical communication patterns and
>general fleet dispersal in wartime. None are specifically applicable, but
>all give the Romulans a HUGE advantage in knowing their enemy.
>
True, but these were the tactics developed in the alt.universe and may not
necessarily reflect the tactics used by the Feds in this universe (then again,
maybe they do).
>
>5-6) (6) is plausible enough, but not relevant, IMHO. (5) would work IF
>I accepted the first four items. I don't. All are implausible to some extent,
>(1) and (2) being IMHO the largest.
>
>Hey, I think I've managed to neatly sum up my own arguments. Now I can just
>refer people to this article. Thanks, Irwin. :-)
>
>>Of course, another possibility is that Sela was lying through her teeth :-)
>>and while the Roms did capture Tasha at Norendra III, after finding out just
>>minimal information from her, she did succeed in killing herself. From this
>>info, Sela was surgically altered to resemble Tasha and f**k up Picard's
>>mind :-).
>
>Bleeeeah. So we're going to insert cowardice in their convictions along WITH
>a mind-numbingly dumb idea? Gee, I know *I'd* be flattered. :-)
>
>Tim Lynch
I would like to add in addition, as a reponse to another of Tim's postings on
this subject, that while I have attempted to portray a plausible argument to
explain the existence of Sela, I do agree with Tim that her existence must
automatically lead to the conclusion that, once again, Tasha died a
"meaningless" death. I was upset enough when I first saw "Skin of Evil" with
this aspect of her death, and was thrilled in YE by her chance to have a
"meaningful" death, that having that noble sacrifice retconned once again was
a terrible thing to do.
James P. Callison
>wom...@eng.umd.edu (Ivan A. Gonzales) writes:
>>>>In article <1991Sep26.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu
>>>>(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
>>>Spoilers for "Redemption II":
How do I get rid of this ^L?
Not like that... maybe like this..
No, that's no right...maybe like this...
Oh, skip it....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[on Sela's origins and the fate of the Enterprise-C]
>
>>>Picard didn't ask "is there any possibility they can win?" He asked "is
>>>there any possibility they could survive?" Presumably, he was speaking of the
>>>ship as a whole. The Romulans are busy fighting a Klingon force over this
>>>base; are they REALLY going to take the time out to capture a few prisoners?
>
>> For one thing, you can take a look at military history, and there are several
>> instances where a much smaller and seemingly insignificant force survived
>> and even defeated a greater force. Also, why would anyone want to capture
>> prisoners? It's certainly easier and safer to simply kill them, yet it has
>> been done. You state the fact that the Romulans were busy fighting Klingons
>> at the time. Exactly. If they can cripple the ship, are they going to take
>> the time to destroy the ship.
>
>Yes. Your first argument is an excellent illustration as to why. Considering
>that, from their perspective, they absolutely pummeled this ship, and it then
>vanished out of sight for a few moments and came back fighting, they would
>probably want to atomize the thing ASAP. Nothing like magic tricks to confuse
>the enemy.
Or maybe it was an added reason to capture the ship: if they can disappear so
totally, they must have some kind of wonderful technology, which we need.
A _very_ powerful motivator to capture, IMHO.
>And I don't agree with the application of your first argument. This is *DATA*
>we're talking about--remember, the guy who quotes probabilities accurately to
>as many significant figures as you want. He didn't say "there is virtually
>no probability they would survive," he said "None, sir." None.
Data has been wrong before, you know. Especially if there are unforseen
circumstances, like the Romulans actually _wanting_ to capture the ship.
He's only super-human, not omniscient.
>> I think that they captured the prisoners after they had already won the
>> battle.
>And I'm sure that that's what was intended by Moore when he wrote this. I
>just don't find it believable.
I agree.
>> There is a HUGE difference between setting a ship to self-destruct and
>> actually physically taking your own life. I find the notion that Tasha
>> would simply commit suicide a little disburbing. She is a surviver, and
>> I think if she saw the slimmest chance for survival, she would take it.
>
>She's a survivor. She's also a Starfleet officer, and one who is viscerally
>loyal to the Federation--that's established as far back as you care to look.
>There is no WAY she would let herself end up in a position where she could
>damage the Federation if there was any possible way to prevent it.
>> as a consort, there were living breathing people's lives depending on her
>> desicion.
I don't buy this. Tasha should not have been trusted enough to have this
kind of power. Not in the Romulan society portrayed in ST.
>She should have killed herself well before the issue came up--like, as soon as
>she realized she was going to be captured. (If she'd decided to "survive"
>and help everyone else, why did she decide to try to escape five years later?
>Did she suddenly cease to care?)
If she were unconscious when taken, I can conceive of her being captured,
and, if she were deprived of the means suicide, remaining alive for awhile.
If she were to become pregnant, I think she'd probably stay alive, for the
sake of the child. (I've known too many mothers to doubt this.)
Did they say she didn't try to escape for five years, ar that that was just
the last time? It is possible that it took her five years to set up her
escape, is it not?
>> The logical desicion is not always going to overshadow the emotional one.
>
>Correct. I think Tasha had no reason in either logic or emotion to act as
>the RII writers have claimed.
I think she did, but I don't like the way they brought Denise Crosby back.
Tacky, tacky, tacky. "Dallas" didn't die, it just went froward 300 years...
James
James P. Callison Applications Analyst UCS/AUS, University of Oklahoma
JCal...@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu /\ JPCa...@uokmax.ecn.uoknor
JCa...@metgem.gcn.uoknor.edu /\/ \/\/\ AUS...@UOKMVSA.BITNET
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
The SE/30 violates these naming conventions...Apple usually uses
an x to indicate the 68030 chip--as in IIx, IIcx and IIfx--but
they apparently didn't think we could handle a...Macintosh SEx.
-- _The_Macintosh_Bible_
Timothy W. Lynch
>A thousand MEA CULPAs from me for forgetting the lines to protect people
>from being spoilered, in my FIRST posting.
>And speaking of those lines....
Spoilers ahead, as implied...
>In article <1991Sep27....@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu
>(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
[on Sela's origins; Data's statement in YE that the ship and crew have no
chance of surviving]
>>ship as a whole. The Romulans are busy fighting a Klingon force over this
>>base; are they REALLY going to take the time out to capture a few prisoners?
>Possibly, if there are any found alive in the ship after it had been
>rendered offensively inoperable. If it could be of any use to them
>they might try to salvage it and anyone aboard.
I think the odds of such situations occurring are remote, especially in a
pitched battle.
>I'm sorry, but Data is not omniscient.
No. However, as I've stated elsewhere, the statement was delivered authori-
tatively enough that Tasha's sacrifice was clearly meant to be just that: a
no-survival sacrifice. For them to, in effect, say "oh, no, we were just
kidding about that" irks me beyond belief. (And those who've been around for
a while can realize just how much it takes to get me _really_ incensed at TNG's
writing staff.)
I think I've dealt with the rest of this stuff elsewhere.
>The problem lies with this whether thread is implausible. I don't think it is.
The problem also lies with the entire resurrection being a slap in the face
to the drama of "Yesterday's Enterprise". Whether I can swallow it is a
major issue for me, but the fact that I think it's a truly sleazy idea
regardless of plausibility is equally major.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
There *are* areas of the country where RII hasn't aired yet. Hence, this is
still spoiler-fodder...
Based on the referenced articles, I assume James is here referring to my
assertion that the explanation for Sela's origins cheapens the drama of
"Yesterday's Enterprise".
> Does that mean all the men *and* women who died in all the wars
>we've fought in our history, escaping from POW camps, or the "local"
>equivalent didn't die bravely, with honour, or most importantly, with
>purpose? If you say "yes", you cheapen their sacrifice. Tasha's situation was
>*exactly* the same...
No, it wasn't. The situation with the average Ent-C "survivor" would be a
closer parallel to what you outline above. Leaving aside the question as to
whether dying in a war is heroic (an issue I'd rather not get into, and that
certainly doesn't belong on r.a.s.), Tasha's situation is much more involved.
And, most importantly, you're ignoring the drama that WE, the viewers, were
all but explicitly told during the course of "Yesterday's Enterprise". We
were TOLD that "sending them back...is a death sentence". We KNEW that Tasha
was heading back to die. We KNEW that the Ent-C's sacrifice to save future
history was a fatal one.
And now, we've been told that it was all a joke.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1991Sep29.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes...
>Spoilers for "Redemption II"...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>1) This is the one I can't swallow at all. The odds of a particular shot
>>just _happening_ to kill or mortally injure most people, yet leaving a few
>>remarkably unharmed, including our beloved Tasha, *and simultaneously doing
>>little enough damage to the ship that it survives the rest of the battle
>>without an active crew*, strike me as just slightly above those of me
>>sprouting wings in the next 40 seconds.
>>
>OK, since this is the one that Tim has the most difficulty accepting, let me
>give a most appropriate example of just this result occuring...
>In YE, when the wormhole was created and the Ent-C passed through, the crew
>had all been knocked out or killed as a result of the Romulan attack.
And you'll note that life support was about to fail entirely. If they hadn't
passed through the wormhole at about the time they did and been rescued by
the Ent-D, they would have died.
>>Further, the Romulans are in the middle of a battle. And the Ent-C, from
>>their standpoint, was beaten to all hell, then suddenly vanished for a few
>>seconds, then came back relatively intact. If you're faced with an enemy
>>that can do THAT, you do NOT leave it lying around after a lucky shot--you
>>shoot to kill and be done with it.
>>
>As someone else has posted, according to what Data said in YE, the disappear-
>ence and reappearance on the Ent-C at Norendra III was virtually instantane-
>ous, so the Roms have no reason to believe that something weird was happening
>with that ship.
Sure they do. Now you just change it to them having fired and their shots,
despite previous sensor readings of no shields, are suddenly having no effect.
That would seem pretty weird to me.
>>4) She knows enough. Hell, she knows future Federation *tactics* backwards
>>and forwards--it's her job. And tactics, methinks, are among the most impor-
>>tant items to safeguard. She knows typical communication patterns and
>>general fleet dispersal in wartime. None are specifically applicable, but
>>all give the Romulans a HUGE advantage in knowing their enemy.
>>
>True, but these were the tactics developed in the alt.universe and may not
>necessarily reflect the tactics used by the Feds in this universe (then again,
>maybe they do).
And how is Tasha to know that?
>I would like to add in addition, as a reponse to another of Tim's postings on
>this subject, that while I have attempted to portray a plausible argument to
>explain the existence of Sela, I do agree with Tim that her existence must
>automatically lead to the conclusion that, once again, Tasha died a
>"meaningless" death.
Glad to hear it. Plausibility's an important concern here for me, but this
aspect of it is far more so. (In other words, anyone here can keep trying to
convince me that there are plausible ways to manage this, but there's no one
here who's ever going to convince me it was a good idea.)
Tim Lynch
Just another theatre geek.....
Perhaps some shocking answers to some simple questions...?
Doubt it.
>
>|>Q: Why didn't Tasha kill herself before being captured?
>|>A: The Ent-C took a hit which sent something flying across the
>|>bridge, which conveniently struck Tasha in the head and rendered her
>|>unconscious. She remained unconscious until captured.
>|I have an alternate explanation based on this same base hypothesis.
>|Tasha sustained a head injury in the battle that caused amnesia.
>On the other hand, perhaps Tasha is like most of us - we can accept
>our own deaths, but we don't take suicide lightly.
On the other hand, if it takes THIS much mental gymnastics to
justify a plot twist, then the plot twist aint worth the paper it was
written on.
I agree with Tim. This sucks.
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@milton.u.washington.edu; Uncle Bonsai Memorial Fan Club
"Originally, I got into theatre to pick up girls. Unfortunately, all
I found were women."
L J Jim Kiraly
I have an explanation for the changes which, for me at least, explains the
Tasha anomaly. There are, in fact, three "time-lines" to be concerned with-
which interact and are confused with one another. Bear with me. Take a piece
of graph paper and label the X axis "Time" and the Y axis "State of the
Universe" (pretty big nebulous item). Draw a point in time-space that
corresponds to the original Enterprise C- Romulan encounter. Construct a
curved line forward in time and label it "original time-line". Along this
curve, pick a point and label it "time warp encounter". Now go back to the
first point and draw a different curved line which originates at the first
point and label it, "enterprise at war". A third curved "time line" can be
constructed though the original point and the second point labeled "tasha sent
back". Whew!
The first time line had Data look at historical records to determine that there
were no survivors. But, when Tasha went back in time (maybe with some better
tactical knowledge)- she went back to the first point only- and the universe
began to traverse the THIRD time line. Everything appeared normal on to our
TNG enterprise after she returned- that's why the third time line intersects
each of the two points- but, in fact, the third time-line is different from the
other two and therefore represents a different past as well as a different
future. On the original time-line Data correctly states that there are no
survivors. On the third time-line, that piece of history has changed, and Data
is no longer correct.
This time travel stuff sure confuses me.
--
__________________________________________________________________
Jim Kiraly- j...@ljkiraly.lerc.nasa.gov- NASA Lewis Research Center
----------------- NeXT Mail preferred ----------------------------
Michael Rawdon
>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
>case, I'll go all out; two Ctrl-L's [usual conduct; a quick one-line summary
>after the first, then the full review], plus 30 lines, plus a small lemming
>named Herbert.
>(I was kidding about the lemming.)
Oh, darn... :-)
BTW, "Ramutash" is a keyword? Just how many people do you think are going to
be doing pattern searches on "Ramutash"? :-) :-)
[Yar's daughter revelation was a disappointment...]
>But other elements of the show were as well, unfortunately. The biggest
>problem, I think, is that we had no less than THREE major plotlines happening
>(Sela's identity, the Klingon civil war, and Data's first command) at once.
>All three would have been better served, I think, by having a full episode
>devoted to them. Instead, we got something that was very disjointed, and
>very...oh, I don't know..."slapdash", I think.
Un-be-lucking-fievable! Wouldn't you know that this is just what I thought
about the episode?
>And that's really a pity, because bits of the show were amazing. The opening
>sequence with Worf and Kurn fighting for their lives was one of the better
>action sequences TNG's ever had--I'm slightly miffed that they didn't go the
>full _The Wounded Sky_ route and have the star they warped that close to go
>nova, but that's just me. :-)
The guy I was watching the episode with was wondering if they were going to
try time warping for some reason. Now THAT would have been a weird way to
start the episode...
> And the actual strategies involved in Picard's
>and Sela's planning were interesting enough to keep me both guessing and
>enthralled. The Data-deals-with-command storyline was solid enough--it was
>just way too *small*. The entire show had terrific production values, I
>think--effects, sets, and yes, music. I'm just depressed that they didn't do
>a better job with the plot.
Two points here I disagree with: I think Data's command was handled well,
though maybe it could have used a little fleshing out. (It's rather
reminiscent of Spock commanding a science vessel in the first DC Star Trek
comic, now that I think of it.) Also, the music didn't do much for me.
(Maybe I was biased because I was listening to my Star Trek II CD soundtrack
just before the episode. :-)
>One thing they could have done starting out was to worry about Denise's
>return some other time, and use *Tomalak* as the main Romulan schemer here and
>in part I.
Yes.
>And surprisingly, a lot of little details were big problems this time;
>something TNG in general, and Ron Moore in particular, is usually much better
>about. For example:
>--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
>part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
>quickly, especially with no explanation.
Well... Picar'd conference with his higher-ups clearly occurred at least two
weeks after Worf's resignation. A lot could have happened in that time.
>--Picard says to Guinan that Tasha died a year before Guinan came on board.
>Wrong. Not even close. "Skin of Evil" was almost the end of the first
>season, and Guinan was already on board by the beginning of the second. No
>more than a few months.
I wondered about that myself. I decided to chalk it up to artistic license.
(Maybe it just FELT like a year. :-)
>--In the like vein, Picard refers to the Norendra 3 battle as both 23 and 24
>years ago (23 to Guinan, 24 to Sela). Now, given that YE was said to be 22
>years after the battle, it's probably 23 and a half or something, but come on,
>guys, at least be consistent within the same episode!
Gee, I missed that. It sounds to me a bit like they were rushed pushing this
episode through.
>Other small observations:
>--There are still too many issues left unresolved from "Reunion". Gowron's
>clearly not lily-white, based on his actions HERE; I still think there's a
>strong possibility that he poisoned K'Mpec in the first place.
Which is what I've been saying all along! But never mind. :-) :-)
>--Not so much a gripe as an observation: the studio, even after this, is
>still insisting Data has no emotions? Yeah. Uh-huh. Bridge, please. :-)
>Sorry, but that was one miffed android on the Sutherland.
I agree. Like I say in my review, this bit does much to make up for the
travesty that was "In Theory"...
>And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
[Scream of anguish deleted. :-) ]
>Now, more coherent gripes. Why, why, why, WHY did they have to do this?
>They could have brought her back as an ordinary scheming Romulan, or even one
>who actually _was_ surgically altered to screw around with Picard's mind. (Of
>course, they could go back and establish this later--but if they do that, I
>think they're just going to manage to alienate the *other* half of the people
>who are concerned, while doing nothing to win back the half they've just
>pissed off.)
Yeah, it will suck if they go back and change stuff around AGAIN.
Also like I say in my review, I think it would have been tough to push a
no-relationship-whatsoever schtick past the casual viewers (given that at
least one of them was quite aware that the Romulan looked just like Yar).
The surgically-altered bit does seem like the most appealing scenario, in
some ways.
>But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
>implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
>late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
>1) Data said flat-out in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that the chances of the
>Ent-C surviving the battle were ZERO. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Picard
>acknowledged in that show _several times_ that sending them back was a death
>sentence, pure and simple. The Ent-C should have been reduced to its
>component atoms almost as soon as it fired its first shot.
Well, you know how I feel about this. I don't think anyone on the alternate-
Enterprise was informed enough of the situation to be able to make such
statements. Moreover, it seemed that changing history back to normal hinged
not just on sending the Ent-C back to be destroyed (in which case, why not
send back an empty hulk?), but on it actually being strong enough to put
up a bit of a fight.
>2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
>Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
>knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they could
>give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to self-destruct
>and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of the Ent-C that
>*I* saw.
It's difficult to answer this, since we really don't know enough of the
situation.
>3) Sela looks too damned old to be a mere 22 1/2. She's also too high in
>rank. The Romulans are going to trust someone who was the daughter of a
>prisoner from the future (clearly they know this; Sela mentioned it enough
>times) enough to make her a full Commander and to put her in charge of an
>operation as big as both the one in "The Mind's Eye" and the one here? Again,
>no. I don't buy it.
And this one I'll actually agree with. If anything, Sela looked OLDER than
Yar did in past episodes.
>I might have been able to buy ONE of these three coincidences at any given
>time. Never all three--not under any circumstances.
>Now, fallout from this:
>--In addition, we didn't even get any REACTIONS to her story. Picard was the
>only one we saw, and his was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too calm. I know that if
>someone told me "oh, by the way, you ordered back an alternate version of one
>of your dead officers into the past 24 years ago, and she happened to be
>captured and give birth to me, even though you don't remember any of this as
>ever happening," I'd go an awful lot beyond a calm skepticism. As for the
>others...Worf sees Sela on the screen while imprisoned, and has NO reaction?
>WORF? And everyone else was oh so conveniently placed on other ships, so that
>no reaction would be seen. Blecch. (Data's in particular is an absolute MUST
>to do a story like this right. And I wanted to see Geordi's reaction to
>Romulans in general; after the events in "The Mind's Eye", he should be more
>than a little emotional about it.)
Good points. I think Worf did show a bit of recognition, but you're quite
right about Data.
>--Guinan basically blaming Picard for this whole situation. *What?* Putting
>aside the issue of Picard "sending" Tasha back (a distortion of the events of
>YE, but an understandable one given murky data and probable bitterness on
>Tasha's part), none of that implies that Picard is in any way responsible for
>the problems facing the Klingons.
It's doubly absurd because she's holding Picard responsible for something
that, in truth, he didn't do. Someone very much like Picard, in another
time continuum, may have done what Guinan said, but not him.
>I just wish they'd put as much effort into the story. Ah, well. They may
>someday regain the respect I did have for them; but as it is, this left me
>very disappointed.
Me, too, though, truth to tell, I had low expectations to begin with.
>'Tis time for the numbers, it seems. Maestro:
[...]
>So, averaging that and boosting it up for truly exceptional production values,
>it seems that we're looking at a 6.5. Not nearly as bad as I'm saying above, I
>think--maybe I'm just grumpy tonight. To sum up--lots of good pieces, but
>very, very jumbled. Sigh.
I gave it what comes out to just slightly below that (6.2?), which is
pretty darned close. :-)
--
Michael Rawdon
raw...@cs.wisc.edu
You can watch them die, live on TV.
- The Box, "Live On TV"
Jorge Diaz
*>In article <6...@sialis.mn.org> r...@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin) writes:
*>Perhaps some shocking answers to some simple questions...?
*> Doubt it.
*>>|>Q: Why didn't Tasha kill herself before being captured?
*>>|>A: The Ent-C took a hit which sent something flying across the
*>>|>bridge, which conveniently struck Tasha in the head and rendered her
*>>|>unconscious. She remained unconscious until captured.
*>>|I have an alternate explanation based on this same base hypothesis.
*>>|Tasha sustained a head injury in the battle that caused amnesia.
*>>On the other hand, perhaps Tasha is like most of us - we can accept
*>>our own deaths, but we don't take suicide lightly.
*> On the other hand, if it takes THIS much mental gymnastics to
*>justify a plot twist, then the plot twist aint worth the paper it was
*>written on.
*> I agree with Tim. This sucks.
Why?
OK, so it's not what we were all expecting.
OK, so maybe we all think that Tasha should have killed herself
because she 'knows to much.'
I agree with Robert. While most of us claim (and some of us may even
believe it) that we are all prepared to die if it's 'for the common
good', I'm sure we would all do some serious re-thinking if it came
down to actually taking our *own* lives.....
Anyone can stand there while someone points a gun (or a phaser) at him
and say he's ready to die, but how many people here can actually say
that they could do it to themselves?
P.S. And if you've ever contemplated suicide, think about why you did it
before you write me saying 'I've come this close to doing it.' Was it because
you just wanted a way out? If so, then that's a suicide of cowardice. What
Tasha would have had to do was one of bravery..... Big difference.
--
Jorge Diaz | "Senior?
Georgia Institute of Technology | What do you mean I'm a SENIOR?
Office of Information Technology | I don't *know* anything yet!"
cco...@prism.gatech.edu |
Timothy W. Lynch
raw...@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon) writes:
>In <1991Sep26.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
Spoilers for "Redemption II" ahead:
>BTW, "Ramutash" is a keyword? Just how many people do you think are going to
>be doing pattern searches on "Ramutash"? :-) :-)
When's the last time you remember other people's pattern searches as being a
major factor in my Keywords line? :-) [Incidentally, I'm not very up on
searching by keywords--if you could email me some advice about it in private,
I'd be appreciative.]
>> And the actual strategies involved in Picard's
>>and Sela's planning were interesting enough to keep me both guessing and
>>enthralled. The Data-deals-with-command storyline was solid enough--it was
>>just way too *small*. The entire show had terrific production values, I
>>think--effects, sets, and yes, music. I'm just depressed that they didn't do
>>a better job with the plot.
>Two points here I disagree with: I think Data's command was handled well,
>though maybe it could have used a little fleshing out.
That's more or less what I'm saying. It deserved a full show, not a tossed-
off 15 minutes. They did a decent job with what they had, but they should
have had more.
>Also, the music didn't do much for me.
>(Maybe I was biased because I was listening to my Star Trek II CD soundtrack
>just before the episode. :-)
Could be. Horner it wasn't, but I thought it was well above average.
>>--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
>>part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
>>quickly, especially with no explanation.
>Well... Picar'd conference with his higher-ups clearly occurred at least two
>weeks after Worf's resignation. A lot could have happened in that time.
Agreed--and one line of dialogue about a transfer would make it cler. Instead,
it looks like a goof. Sloppy.
I'll deal with the general Sela stuff when I see your own review--no need to
clutter up this subject line too much. :-) (Besides, as I've said multiply
elsewhere, plausibility and palatibility are two separate things. Even if
someone manages to hand me an absolutely perfectly plausible way to bring all
this about, I'll still think it's a cheap-as-hell stunt worthy of "Dallas".)
>>--Guinan basically blaming Picard for this whole situation. *What?*
[.........]
>It's doubly absurd because she's holding Picard responsible for something
>that, in truth, he didn't do. Someone very much like Picard, in another
>time continuum, may have done what Guinan said, but not him.
True enough. I've mentioned later details about this elsewhere.
Hey, that was quick. No Lynch-Rawdon ping-pong this week, it seems...:-)
Tim Lynch
Constantinos A. Caroutas
Spoilers ahead...
In article <1991Sep27....@cco.caltech.edu>,
>could give the Romulans a hell of an edge (another reason I've been opposed to
>the idea; if the Romulans captured people off the Ent-C with knowledge of 22
>years of technology, they should be well ahead of the Federation militarily by
Tasha was a security officer and not an engineer. She knew the yields and
the capabilities of weapons, but she did not know how they were achieved.
And if she omitted to mention any weapons available at her time, but not
22 years earlier, who would suspect?
By the way, even engineers don't know the technology in many applications
other than what they work on. I have two degrees in mechanical engineering,
but I don't know how to design car engines or how to build them.
The engineers for the electronics manufacturers know that with blue lasers
a CD could be made to contain 5 hours of music. If somebody came from the
future and said that such players are common there, would that somebody be
expected to know how to build a blue semi-conductor laser?
>There wasn't any particular way I "wanted it done". There were several ways I
>very definitely did NOT want it done, for reasons of plausibilty. This one
>led the entire smegging pack.
With time travel, you cannot expect plausibility. Romulans surely know
how to time travel. So, how come they don't go to back to 1000BC and
blast Earth?
Constantinos A. Caroutas -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
"It's like I'm blowing kisses in the wind | from
Giving you love that you haven't been given | "Blowing Kisses In The Wind" I cross my heart and hope to die | Paula Abdul I'm only wishing you'd love me like I" | SPELLBOUND (1991)
Constantinos A. Caroutas
Spoilers ahead
In article <23...@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>, amin...@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Tony
Minkoff) writes:
>Q: Why couldn't the Romulans use her knowledge from 22 years in the
>future to gain an overwhelming technological advantage vs. the Feds?
>
>A1: The Romulan who took her as a consort, who was evidently rather
>powerful in the Romulan heirarchy, loved her too much to allow
>brutal Romulan interrogation methods to be used on her. Since she
Tasha: Our ship phasers are rated 4GW.
Interrogator: Impressive. How is this achieved?
Tasha: Dunno. The manufacturer won't say.
Interrogator: Who is the manufacturer?
Tasha: Epsilon Energy Corporation.
Interrogator: This company does not exist.
Tasha: It will. In 11 years. At least it did in the alternate universe
I came from...
Interrogator: Either this lie detector is broken, or you're not lying...
Constantinos A. Caroutas
>explored further (which seems likely, if and when we see Sela again).
>
>(BTW, is that the correct spelling? I saw someone spell it "Cilla"...)
In the captions (my roommate has a closed-caption decoder), it
was spelled Sela.
marc.colten
We finally got Redemption II here in NJ and I've been trying to catch
up on all the messages and reviews. So here are some of my comments.
1) "Chances of surviving to be captured are nil" - I figure that a
starship is a pretty big place and tough to "atomize". Despite
the bad special effects of early Star Treks - big ships don't
just vanish, even if they are blown up. A destroyed starship
would probably contain intact compartments from which survivors
could be transported - directly into captivity.
2) "Tasha should have/would have killed herself" - Tasha may not have
the chance. She may have been captured via transporter and not known it
was going to happen. She could have been beamed directly out
of a cold dark powerless bridge to a holding cell. Also, there's
nothing that I know of in any military code of conduct that says
you're supposed to kill youself, just survive, disrupt the enemy,
and escape if possible.
3) There's also the comment that she knew how valuable she was, since
she had the key to the future so to speak. But remember - the Romulans
didn't know that. They couldn't know that one of the handful of
survivors they captured was from the future. She could be confident
that the only questions she would be asked would be about current
weapons and strategy - about which she'd know almost nothing. Therefore
there was nothing she could give away under torture. I think she
might also be confident of her ability to lie and resist the torture.
4) "She'd never give herself to a Romulan officer" - Maybe she didn't
attribute that much importance to it. Maybe she saw it as a way
to preserve the lives of her new crew and herself and give them a
chance to escape or be swapped, or be rescued.
5) Someone also found it unlikely that her daughter could rise to
such authority and power in a few short years. I think she could.
First - her credentials were good - after all she did kill her
mother for the state. Check out early Soviet "Child Heroes" for
this kind of thinking. Second - in a warrior society in long
drawn out war there's a lot of attrition and spots open up. If
she was smart, and tough - it could happen. Maybe they also
thought she could "think human".
marc colten
Tony Minkoff
References: <1991Sep27.
* Origin: Future Quest - USENET<=>Fidonet Gateway 512-451-0891 (1:19/23)
Dave Schaumann
[this is getting pretty far afield of R2, but I guess, in principle...]
>Spoilers ahead
>Tasha: Our ship phasers are rated 4GW.
>Interrogator: Impressive. How is this achieved?
>Tasha: Dunno. The manufacturer won't say.
This seems unlikely. When the phasers break down, they have to *know* how
to fix them. There's no way they can call up a field engineer in the middle
of a battle. (Ah, Hello? My phasers are broken. Whadda ya mean you can be
here in 4 weeks?! I need phasers NOW!!)
Horowitz, Irwin Kenneth
>In article <18...@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, cc433336@longs (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:
>
>[this is getting pretty far afield of R2, but I guess, in principle...]
>>Spoilers ahead
>>Tasha: Our ship phasers are rated 4GW.
>>Interrogator: Impressive. How is this achieved?
>>Tasha: Dunno. The manufacturer won't say.
>
>This seems unlikely. When the phasers break down, they have to *know* how
>to fix them. There's no way they can call up a field engineer in the middle
>of a battle. (Ah, Hello? My phasers are broken. Whadda ya mean you can be
>here in 4 weeks?! I need phasers NOW!!)
>--
was a problem with the Enterprise's phasers, who do you think would be sent
to fix them...Worf or Geordi?
aaron
>>Irwin Horowitz writes:
>*SPOILERS* ahead!!
First a few notes, before I join battle with Tim (for the SECOND time,
because of this bloody balky poster/server I have to coddle): firstly,
I was not happy with the amount of time that was spent on RomuTash. I
felt that that time would have been much better served, elsewhere.
Second, that notwithstanding, I agree with Irwin WRT how Sela's story
might be true, as will be further explained as we go. And thirdly,
apologies beforehand for the possible mess which my editor (vi) may
make of this article. I'll try to keep the damage down to a minimum.
And now . . . Into the breach, dear friends!!
>
>Irwin presents, in the latest article references above, a possible scenario
>for how Sela came about, to see if it's something I can buy. :-) In brief,
>his argument goes thusly:
>
>Hopefully that's an accurate summary. Now, one at a time:
>
>1) This is the one I can't swallow at all. The odds of a particular shot
>just _happening_ to kill or mortally injure most people, yet leaving a few
>remarkably unharmed, including our beloved Tasha, *and simultaneously doing
>little enough damage to the ship that it survives the rest of the battle
>without an active crew*, strike me as just slightly above those of me sprouting
>wings in the next 40 seconds.
>
Here's where I've had most problems accepting people's objections to
Sela's existence. How is it so completely impossible that Tasha could have
survived? How many times have we seen someone just injured in the course of
action on board these starships? The answer is: any number of times. Of
course, some people died, but I think it accurate to say that for the most
part, we saw survivors. Now then, in combat, the possibility for being
injured, even on board a well protected starship, is not IMHO small. Check
out any number of TOS episodes, check out the different movies, check out
such episodes as YE and yes both Redemptions. People killed *AND* injured.
It does not strike me as impossible or even *improbable* that Tasha could
indeed have *easily* been rendered unconscious when the battle for Nirendra
was resumed. And it wouldn't have to be any *particular* shot that did it.
IMHO, the beginnings of reasonable doubt exist . . .
>
>Further, the Romulans are in the middle of a battle. And the Ent-C, from
>their standpoint, was beaten to all hell, then suddenly vanished for a few
>seconds, then came back relatively intact. If you're faced with an enemy that
>can do THAT, you do NOT leave it lying around after a lucky shot--you shoot to
>kill and be done with it.
>
If there's one thing that I've always given the Romulans credit for,
it's that no matter what the situation may be they are *always* on their
feet, thinking, and I haven't seen anything to discourage that. Another
thing I attribute to them is their desire to capture a Federation starship.
Given this, prove to me that the following scenario is impossible: the
Romulans are winning, and they know it. Suddenly, the Federation starship
which they had almost taken before is suddenly back, although she is able
to fight better than she had been when she left. There is more than enough
firepower to bring to bear on her, and the Romulans do. As soon as a a
shield is down, a quick-thinking Romulan commander beams all sorts of troops
on board the ship, and quickly capture it. Improbable? I'll give you that.
But don't tell me it's impossible.
>
>3) Plausible--but Tasha being Tasha, I would expect her to either kill herself
>or be killed in an abortive escape attempt almost immediately, probably the
>former.
>
Remember what Saavik had to say about her origins. If the Romulans
could do that to *Vulcans*, keep them alive and imprisoned until they were
good and ready to let them die, I certainly believe they could do the same to
poor, little Tasha, who is no Vulcan no matter where she comes from . . .
>
>4) She knows enough. Hell, she knows future Federation *tactics* backwards
>and forwards--it's her job. And tactics, methinks, are among the most impor-
>tant items to safeguard. She knows typical communication patterns and
>general fleet dispersal in wartime. None are specifically applicable, but
>all give the Romulans a HUGE advantage in knowing their enemy.
>
Indeed, she knows enough . . . about the *War Universe*. And other
than superficials, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that there are
enough similarities between the two Universes to make a difference. I
think this would most especially be the case in fleet communication and
dispersal patterns. After all, the difference here is one of being at war
on one hand, and being at peace on the other. And the war being prosecuted
was against the Klingons, not the Romulans. I dare say that any information
she might have been able to give tem along these lines would actually be
*mis*information . . . The only place I feel she would be able to give them
anything remotely useful is in the area of weaponry, and even then it is
doubtful just how useful it would be, given the ability of Romulan Intel.
>
>>Of course, another possibility is that Sela was lying through her teeth :-)
>>and while the Roms did capture Tasha at Norendra III, after finding out just
>>minimal information from her, she did succeed in killing herself. From this
>>info, Sela was surgically altered to resemble Tasha and f**k up Picard's
>>head.
>
>Bleeeeah. So we're going to insert cowardice in their convictions along WITH
>a mind-numbingly dumb idea? Gee, I know *I'd* be flattered. :-)
>
Cowardice? Mind-numbingly dumb?? Where??? How???? Irwin's idea
here is so typically Romulan, if you think about it, that it makes more sense
than what Sela sez happened. Of *COURSE* the Romulans would stoop to making
up such a ploy to screw up the man they *know* is the Federation's top
captain. They in all likelihood have all the information they need to go
about doing so (see Data's Day). IMHO, it's mind-numbingly dumb NOT to act
on that sort of information, if you can go about doing so . . .
One more thing in the way of a disclaimer. I know I've sounded a
little strident working this topic over, but I can't see how people think
Sela's story is an impossibility. By every rule of thinking and logic I
have it is most emphatically possible, and what Ive been reading attempts
to deny that at every turn. I realise that a lot of it may have to do
with discontent at the actually return of *Tasha*, and I'm not happy about
that, either. But the idea behind it, while maybe not *probable*, must
be admitted as *plausible*. And that's what I've tried to point out . . .
Regards,
Stanley!!
Sta...@Not.the.Mama.com 8-)
Timothy W. Lynch
>>Tim Lynch writes:
>>>Irwin Horowitz writes:
>>*SPOILERS* ahead!!
All the plausibility arguments are ones I've commented on by now, Stanley,
so I'll refrain. However...
>>>Of course, another possibility is that Sela was lying through her teeth :-)
>>>and while the Roms did capture Tasha at Norendra III, after finding out just
>>>minimal information from her, she did succeed in killing herself. From this
>>>info, Sela was surgically altered to resemble Tasha and f**k up Picard's
>>>head.
>>
>>Bleeeeah. So we're going to insert cowardice in their convictions along WITH
>>a mind-numbingly dumb idea? Gee, I know *I'd* be flattered. :-)
>>
> Cowardice? Mind-numbingly dumb?? Where??? How????
On the part of the *writers*, Stanley, not of the Romulans. First they've
pulled what IMHO is one of the stupidest and most cheap stunts they've ever
done--to now amend that to "no, she only THINKS she's Tasha's daughter!"
is a good way to annoy more people without winning others back.
> One more thing in the way of a disclaimer. I know I've sounded a
>little strident working this topic over, but I can't see how people think
>Sela's story is an impossibility.
Suit yourself. I have yet to see an argument that even comes close to
convincing me. It was an implausible move, and a godawful one.
Tim Lynch
Constantinos A. Caroutas
minor spoilers ahead
>In article <18...@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, cc433336@longs (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:
>>Tasha: Our ship phasers are rated 4GW.
>>Interrogator: Impressive. How is this achieved?
>>Tasha: Dunno. The manufacturer won't say.
>
>This seems unlikely. When the phasers break down, they have to *know* how
>to fix them. There's no way they can call up a field engineer in the middle
I was a soldier for two years and I got to learn many weapons. I knew
how to take them apart and how to put them together. I knew what could
break, and to look for it. While I could repair a weapon by using spare
parts, I did not know how to manufacture those parts. Also, I had no
idea why some machine-guns could fire more than 1000 rounds a minute
while others only 250 (same projectile size).
Nicholas C. Hester
Spoilers ahead:
In article <1991Sep29.2...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu
(Timothy W. Lynch) says:
>[on Sela's origins; Data's statement in YE that the ship and crew have no
>chance of surviving]
>
>>rendered offensively inoperable. If it could be of any use to them
>>they might try to salvage it and anyone aboard.
>
>I think the odds of such situations occurring are remote, especially in a
>pitched battle.
How about afterwards?
>>I'm sorry, but Data is not omniscient.
>
>No. However, as I've stated elsewhere, the statement was delivered authori-
>tatively enough that Tasha's sacrifice was clearly meant to be just that: a
>no-survival sacrifice. For them to, in effect, say "oh, no, we were just
>kidding about that" irks me beyond belief. (And those who've been around for
>a while can realize just how much it takes to get me _really_ incensed at
>TNG's
>writing staff.)
I can see your point, but I think that it was also said that the
outcome at Nirendra was not certain. I cannot see holding out
that if there was that much uncertainty that the survival of Tasha
Yar could be anything but a possibility. The timelines were
corrected, but that does not mean that Tasha would be destroyed
or that there would be no survivors.
>The problem also lies with the entire resurrection being a slap in the face
>to the drama of "Yesterday's Enterprise". Whether I can swallow it is a
>major issue for me, but the fact that I think it's a truly sleazy idea
>regardless of plausibility is equally major.
I disagree with that. I consider it just another plot twist.
Nicholas C. Hester
ia8...@Maine.Bitnet
ia8...@Maine.Maine.edu
Paul Gootherts
Consider this:
1) The Enterprise-C *is* destroyed as Data predicted.
2) The Romulans board the drifting hulk and find parts of the ship's log
intact. They see some of what we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise".
Hmm, a Tasha-clone could play some serious mind-games with a certain
Federation captain that has been a real thorn in the Empire's side.
3) They locate Tasha's body, at her station where she died defending her
ship, and take the necessary cells for the clone. (Dr. Crusher
indicates in "Redemption II" that it is a possibility.)
4) Sela is raised (100%) as a Romulan.
5) Sela meets Picard and tells the lie we heard in "Redemption II".
Something I haven't heard anyone mention that bothered me at the time
was that Sela directed the tachyon disruption at "the ship with the
android commander". How did she know?
Paul Gootherts
Hewlett-Packard Co
aaron
>>I write:
>>>Tim Lynch writes:
>>>*SPOILERS* ahead!!
>
>All the plausibility arguments are ones I've commented on by now, Stanley,
>so I'll refrain. However...
>
only disagree on some given idea. I believe we may be at that point on this
particular idea . . .
>
>On the part of the *writers*, Stanley, not of the Romulans. First they've
>pulled what IMHO is one of the stupidest and most cheap stunts they've ever
>done--to now amend that to "no, she only THINKS she's Tasha's daughter!"
>is a good way to annoy more people without winning others back.
>
Tasha-YE's daughter, and then pull a stunt like this is indeed a copout of
a particularily poor type. However, if this is the idea from the beginning
(and it somewhere comes out as being such) . . . well, I'll say again that
I deeply believe that such a thing is an almost archtypical ploy and way of
Romulan thinking. But if one of the points you're trying to make here is
that the writers need to stick to their guns and hold to a single explanation
then I must agree.
>
>Suit yourself. I have yet to see an argument that even comes close to
>convincing me. It was an implausible move, and a godawful one.
>
possibility in the Tasha-YE survival idea, while I *must* believe that it
is at least *possible* (though by no means probable). Would you agree that
we have a sticking point here on which we will not agree? 8-)
Regards,
Stanley
Jeffrey Klein
Simple, Data's first officer was a spy. (Just a guess)
-JK>
Horowitz, Irwin Kenneth
I don't think the cloning idea holds much water, b/c Sela obviously had some
Romulan genes in her makeup (note the ears), unless, of course, that it was
simply a human wearing plastic molded pointed ears (now where have we heard
that one before? :-).
Constantinos A. Caroutas
In article <1174...@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com>, p...@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com
(Paul Gootherts) writes:
>3) They locate Tasha's body, at her station where she died defending her
> ship, and take the necessary cells for the clone. (Dr. Crusher
> indicates in "Redemption II" that it is a possibility.)
>4) Sela is raised (100%) as a Romulan.
Yes, but Sela has pointed ears and remembers a mother... Anyway, it
didn't matter much to Picard to ask Sela to submit to a genetic test.
I'm sure she would, but it didn't matter much to her either.
Anne H. Pfohl
>
Don't know what the statute of limitations for spoilers and FFs is around
here, so hit 'n' now if your don't want to know about Redemption II -
especially our European friends...
>
[... Tim's synopsis deleted for brevity...]
Tim Lynch writes:
>
>Damn, but I'm annoyed. I hoped for _three damned months_ that they wouldn't
>resort to such a hokey explanation for Denise Crosby's return, only to be
>disappointed. That in itself was a big letdown.
Can we say "predicatble"? I knew we could...
Tim:
>
>But other elements of the show were as well, unfortunately. The biggest
>problem, I think, is that we had no less than THREE major plotlines happening
>(Sela's identity, the Klingon civil war, and Data's first command) at once.
>All three would have been better served, I think, by having a full episode
>devoted to them. Instead, we got something that was very disjointed, and
>very...oh, I don't know..."slapdash", I think.
If they had to have so many important and potentially interesting plot lines
going on at once, then the season opener should have been at least two hours.
How many people over the summer were posting how angry they'd be if the
writers wrapped up this civil war/Romulan plot in one episode? Yet another
"worst fear" realized.
The decision to do that - to tie everything up with a neat little bow (though
there are enough loose ends - L'ursa and B'etor getting away, etc. to fuel
future stories) makes BOBWII look like a dramatic tour de force, IMNSHO.
This really pissed me off. Hopefully _Unification_ will take some of this
bad taste out of the whole experience with Redemption - don't try to do too
much in one episode, and stop being so predictable!
Trying to do too much in the one hour episode hurt Redemption II more than
any other factor, I think.
>
>And that's really a pity, because bits of the show were amazing.
Exactly. Any one of the three major plot lines Tim pointed out - or even any
two together - would have made an excellent episode, and aspects of that
potential shone through at various times. What really made me angry was that
Worf's character was practically two dimensional because of the lack of time
they could spend on him. Someone else pointed this out too - all the
terrific development and insight into Worf was discarded and discontinued in
this episode and it was a shame.
>For that matter, I think Denise
>herself did a good job as Sela the Commander; it was as Sela the Daughter of
>Tasha that she fell flat (not just the character; I thought that whole scene
>detailing her origins was pretty weak). If they hadn't thrown in the Tasha
>stuff, they could even have kept Sela. Sheesh.
Yes, but as it is now, what can they do with her but eventually get rid of
her, probably after she changes her dastardly Romulan ways and begins to get
in touch with her better, purer, cleaner, more righteous human self (bleah!).
I think, again, the reason the Daughter of Tasha aspect fell flat (besides
the fact that it was the last thing most people wanted to hear :) was that
there just wasn't enough time to do it justice. Was it Josh who kept talking
in six minute increments about this and that plot element? Exactly - "okay,
that's all the time we have for this, let's move on..."
[...Tim points out several inconsistencies in the story...]
It's almost as if they threw this one together, isn't it? Sort of a
Jambalaya - "slapdash", as you said, Tim - and then lopped stuff up liberally
to make it all squeeze into that one hour pot...
>
>--There are still too many issues left unresolved from "Reunion". Gowron's
>clearly not lily-white, based on his actions HERE; I still think there's a
>strong possibility that he poisoned K'Mpec in the first place.
Look for this stuff to be addressed in future episodes. As I observed in a
previous post, the final tableau of the High Council suggests that there is
more to come with Kurn, Gowron and Worf in the future.
Tim:
>And now...the major gripe. Sela's existence.
[...scream of anguish deleted - trust me, it wasn't a pretty sight... :]
>
>Now, more coherent gripes. Why, why, why, WHY did they have to do this?
>They could have brought her back as an ordinary scheming Romulan, or even one
>who actually _was_ surgically altered to screw around with Picard's mind. (Of
>course, they could go back and establish this later--but if they do that, I
>think they're just going to manage to alienate the *other* half of the people
>who are concerned, while doing nothing to win back the half they've just
>pissed off.)
>
>But they didn't. Instead, they chose to go with a completely, COMPLETELY
>implausible explanation. I didn't buy it when it was proposed here back in
>late May--and I don't buy it now. Too many things don't hold up at all.
But it pulls at the heart strings, Tim! Look at the vast potential for the
anguish and emotional upheaval as the bright young commander is faced with
the people who knew her mother when! Is she burning with curiosity? Will
we actually see her chatting with Counselor Troi? Will Data have a heart to
heart with the impetuous and embittered Sela, telling her of the intimacy he
shared with her mother? Will Worf gruffly remind her that it is important to
find her true self, her own way, and not blindly follow the ways and rituals
of her ancestors? Will she face Picard at the last, her head high, her chin
jutting slightly forward, and inform him she has left her command, fled
Romulus, and now must find herself somewhere out there, in the vast cosmos,
once she has faced the guilt and trauma of being an instrument of her
mother's execution?
Ah, master the possibilities...
>
>2) Even if they lasted a bit longer, you're telling me that the crew of the
>Ent-C, knowing full well that they were on a complete suicide mission, and
>knowing furthermore that with their slight knowledge of the future, they could
>give the Romulans a nasty edge if captured, *didn't manage to self-destruct
>and leave no survivors?* No. MM-mm. Wrong. Not the crew of the Ent-C that
>*I* saw.
This, to me, is the best argument. Unless the ship was so damaged, yet still
in tact, that they couldn't destroy it and themselves, I would have expected
the Ent-C officers to wait until the Romulan landing party beamed aboard, and
then... boom!
>
>3) Sela looks too damned old to be a mere 22 1/2. She's also too high in
>rank. The Romulans are going to trust someone who was the daughter of a
>prisoner from the future (clearly they know this; Sela mentioned it enough
>times) enough to make her a full Commander and to put her in charge of an
>operation as big as both the one in "The Mind's Eye" and the one here? Again,
>no. I don't buy it.
The only thing I can think of is that Romulans have a different way of
climbing up the military ladder. More intrigue? More ambition? More covert
actions and manipulation of power to get what they want? More string pulling
and politicking? We know so little about the Romulan culture (canonically
speaking... :)... Sela said her father was a mucky-muck general (okay, so
she didn't say "mucky-muck) - she, having shown her true Romulan-icity as a
mere child (turning in her mother and all) is recognized from a young age as
a hero of the Empire. Her father - powerful and influential - buys her a
command! We don't know how they do things - is the way of Star Fleet (the
Academy, working your way up from the bottom, proving yourself worthy,
promotions...) the Romulan Way? Who knows...
>
>Now, fallout from this:
>
>--In addition, we didn't even get any REACTIONS to her story.
>
This gets me too - Worf would definately have reacted - I can see him now as
he lunges toward the screen, held back by guards or bindings - "TASHA?!"
At the end of Mind's Eye there was an amazing scene with Geordi and Troi,
working on his memory, trying to rebuild it. The acting was excellent.
Now,a s with everything else I loved at the end of last season, they've
dropped that too. Why wasn't there something more about the humanity of
these people as they face so many ghosts, so many painful memories of loss?
Grrrr!
Of course the FX are great, but I have come to expect even more from ST:TNG.
Let these actors act! Don't just shuffle them around from scene to scene,
frantically trying to churn out as much story as you possibly can, giving
them no time at all to light on one moment to find any nuance of emotion or
reaction...
Bev and Troi are in the observation lounge with Picard discussing this, and
neither of them say anything like "My god, I can't believe it! Tasha? How
could this happen?" "I examined her myself, Jean Luc. She was dead. We
buried her. We said goodbye. Is this some Romulan's idea of an evil joke?"
Nothing.
[...Tim goes on to point out some of the positives...]
I too am sounding off about a lot of the negatives... I did like the episode,
and parts of it were very good, but they had the potential to do so much
more, and they blew it by doing too much all at once.
>
>I just wish they'd put as much effort into the story.
Or less, actually... :)
Anne
University at Buffalo Medical School - Office of Information Systems
======================================================================
*** Disclaimer...
*** These thoughts belong to -mi
-mi -mi
-mi -mi
mi -mi. Ahem. La la la...
*** Sounds like a personal problem to mi... ***
======================================================================
ois...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu | One more false move and I'll... I'll...
ois...@mednet.bitnet | sing a high C!
pf...@eng.buffalo.edu | - Dangerous Diva
Nicholas C. Hester
(Horowitz, Irwin Kenneth) says:
>
>I don't think the cloning idea holds much water, b/c Sela obviously had some
>Romulan genes in her makeup (note the ears), unless, of course, that it was
>simply a human wearing plastic molded pointed ears (now where have we heard
>that one before? :-).
Genetic engineering using a combination of genes, perhaps? I think that
it would be interesting if her memories were implanted ala "BladeRunner";
we saw where it happened to Geordi.
Michael Rawdon
>In article <1991Sep29.0...@cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes...
>>Some more thoughts on "Redemption II". Spoilers ho.
>>Plausibility arguments aside, there are other reasons I don't care for Sela's
>>origins.
>>They have managed to cheapen most of the drama in "Yesterday's Enterprise", as
>>far as I'm concerned. Tasha's sacrifice, Picard's choice, the Ent-C's crew's
>>choices to head back at all--all have now basically gone to naught. Sure,
>>they managed to avert the war then; but now things are back in a similar
>>boat. Oh--and Tasha originally went back to make her death count for some-
>>thing, right? Would someone please explain how being gunned down in a
>>Romulan suburb after being a war bride for five years is in any way better than
>>her death at the hands of Armus? No. Not me. "Yesterday's Enterprise" gave
>>Tasha a sacrifice and a death that meant something. RII killed that.
>First of all, the whole reason Sela claims her mother was there and she was
>born, in essence, was because Tasha was attempting to save the lives of the
>other surviving crew members. That is a very Tasha-like thing to do. If her
>death would have saved them, then she would have done it, no doubt. But,
>since it was her living that would help them, she chose that.
More than that, Yar STILL died because of her decision to go back in time.
That is to say, if she had not decided to do that, she would not have been
executed as related by Sela.
Someone explain to me why getting blown away while serving on the Enterprise-C
after deciding to go back in time to save the Federation is any better than
being executed after deciding to go back in time to save the Federation.
I still think that it truly is "the thought that counts". Even if she had
never been killed at all, I think her actions would have been precisely as
heroic as the two above alternatives.
>She was attempting to escape from the evil Romulan Empire - to save her
>offspring from learning the Romulan way of life. Don't know how she thought
>she was supposed to escape, but that's another story. Tasha was attempting
>to rescue herself and her child, to return to the bosom of the Federation,
>and to insure that her child would grow up learning good and righteous values
>in the Federation. Even more important, we will now witness, I am convinced,
>Sela's transformation from the rigid Romulan who sees her father and his way
>of life as supreme and correct to a confused, questioning and ultimately
>enlightened being who will begin, perhaps tenuously, to embrace her human
>side.
I hope not; that would be a tremendous cliche. I think a more interesting
portrayal would be to play up the "something evil coming from something good"
connection, rather than trying to reverse it. Lots of potential for tasty
irony there.
(See? Between Tim and I, they can't win! :-)
--
Michael Rawdon
raw...@cs.wisc.edu
"...I guess I'd rather have mediocre Star Trek then none at all."
- A friend, about the ST:TNG episode "Legacy"
John T. whelan
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>WARNING: This article contains severe spoilers for TNG's fifth-season
>>premiere, "Redemption II."
>I'm preserving Tim's Control-L and the 30 lines (in case formfeed doesn't
>take for some reason).
>>--Why was Worf serving on the Hectar? He said scant days earlier (the end of
>>part 1) that he would be on the Bortas. Seems strange to transfer him that
>>quickly, especially with no explanation.
>I think there were two factors at work here. First, we don't know for sure
>that Worf was going to serve on Gowron's ship. All Gowron said when Worf
>resigned from Starfleet was, "I will await you on the Bortas."
I'm fairly certain that Picard said something to the effect of
"I understand you'll be serving as weapons officer aboard the
_bortaS_"
BTW, upon re-watching "The Defector" this summer, I noticed
that at one point the computer (Majel Barett) refers to an incoming
message from the Klingon vessel "_Bortis_" (well, that was how Majel
pronounced it, at least.) Nice touch, even if none of the Klingon
ships looked like the _bortaS_...
>Furthermore, I find it VERY difficult to belive that Tasha, who grew up
>running from the rape gangs on her planet (I presume that that portion
>of the history was relatively similar to what we know) would voluntarily
>become the consort of an enemy merely to save her life...Honor was important
>to her, else she wouldn't have volunteered to go back in time to make her
>death count for something...She was brave enough to die for that, and I
>don't buy that her will would crumble at the threat of execution.
But it wasn't _her_ life she was trading for, it was for the
other survivors!! That sounds like a sacrifice worthy of Tasha. (I
like to think Castillo was among those survivors.)
It's all over but the .sigs...
>>Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
>>BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
>>INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
>>UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
>>--
>>Copyright 1991, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask..
>--
>--Tony Murray (tmu...@socrates.umd.edu)
> "I like when they talk real loud trying to tell you what they know."
> -MwoH
John Whelan
"You pull no punches / You need a damsel in distress
Who'll play your hunches / Who'll be a virgin more or less
You'll spring for candy / You'll have some secrets to confess
You'll pour the brandy / And pull the body from my dress"
--Uncle Bonsai, "Bedroom Eyes"