I think I will Stop posting here
TIMMY-...@webtv.net
want to call yourselves that think their superior then any new people
that post in here,seems all you people like to do is argue with anyone
not in your little inner circle..really kinda sad how anal you people
are
Pradera
You're right. It is very hard to get into our little clique. It takes years
and years of regular posting - and on topic only - as well as passing many
initiation rituals (such as winning the flame war with Softrat). Just like
I did. But not everyone is as skilled as us. It is a wise move you make.
Retreat before it's too late.
--
Pradera
---
Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana
Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage
Tori no mure ga naiteiru
Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni
Bill O'Meally
<TIMMY-...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:4903-3DB...@storefull-2174.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Sorry you feel that way. There are established ways of doing things in these
groups. Being a newcomer, its up to you to follow the standard practices
rather than the other way around. Most of us lurked for a while, got a feel
for these practices and read the FAQs before ever posting. If you choose to
do things in such a manner as to piss people off, that's up to you.
As I tried to explain to you in another thread, no one is obligated to read
posts that are difficult to understand, or off topic (RABT more so than AFT)
. When a poster does this persistently, I usually simply skip posts under
that person's name or just killfile him.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
AC
Don't trip on your way out...
--
AC
The American
the whole web tv thing is just too funny.
Chris Conn
tried subbing to some of the Yahoo! groups Tolkien
lists and all they wanted to talk about was how
attractive the actors in the movie were, couldn't
unsub fast enough :-). I admire the understanding you
guys have of his Tolkien and his work, hope to get
more of that myself soon.
--
Chris Conn
cmcgoat at swbell dot net
Austin, Texas
stealth...@-remove-yahoo.com
Plus, if we were really anal, someone would have commented on his poor
English.
Fortunately, no one here is so base.
--
Sindamor Pandaturion
[remove -remove- to reply]
Darth Quokka
I got that impression, when I asked a question about Tom Bombadil...
I got flamed, by some smarmy bastard. He told me to go back and read the
books (all well and fine), but he could have answered my question, there and
then. But no, he had to be rude, and well... "Pompous"...
Bill O'Meally
"Darth Quokka" <lotsa....@rottnest.island.com.au> wrote in message
news:api79r$ppo$1...@nnrp.waia.asn.au...
> I got flamed, by some smarmy bastard.
Just one?
Michael P Reed
> On 27 pa? 2002, TIMMY-...@webtv.net scribbled loosely:
> and years of regular posting - and on topic only - as well as passing many
> initiation rituals (such as winning the flame war with Softrat).
Doesn't sound too hard. <g>
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Michael P Reed
Being rather new here-abouts myself, I cannot but disagree. I have never been
made to feel unwelcome (unlike a certain Eurotrash dominated group where my
nation of birth goes over as well as an one legged leper laded with a bucket of
lead at a high jump competition)or ignored, and have found rabt a generally
interesting abode of discussion for the Tokien geek...er, officianado.
Generally speaking, any group in which one pontificates rudely or assininely
will be treated in kind. Here milder than other groups which I have
experienced. One must have a certain amount of thick skin to play on the
usenet, as any good discussion invites debate both gentle and skewering.
Courtesy begits courtesy, and whinyness begits derision.
pawn
news:api79r$ppo$1...@nnrp.waia.asn.au...
> news:4903-3DB...@storefull-2174.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>
>
> I got flamed, by some smarmy bastard. He told me to go back and read the
> books (all well and fine), but he could have answered my question, there
and
> then. But no, he had to be rude, and well... "Pompous"...
OK, but you just described Usenet, not this group in particular.
Usenet, and more broadly, the Internet is how people would treat each other
without the fear of a nice punch in the face.
>
>
Luke Hoffmann
>want to call yourselves that think their superior then any new people
>that post in here
We were all new once.
,seems all you people like to do is argue with anyone
>not in your little inner circle..really kinda sad how anal you people
>are
Nothng anal about discussing something you enjoy.
Isn't that what most newsgroups are about?
Luke Hoffmann
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than
half of you half as well as you deserve. -Bilbo Baggins
Flame of the West
>
> It's clear to me that this group has it's little clique or whatever you
> want to call yourselves that think their superior then any new people
> that post in here,seems all you people like to do is argue with anyone
> not in your little inner circle..
Timmy, I've been over in the other NG lately, but having seen this
post, I went and checked a few threads that you've started or
joined. I didn't see much abuse, except from Stan Brown and the
softrat, but don't take their abuse personally, they do it to everyone.
I personally would urge you to stick around. You're more on topic
than most, and you're not afraid to start an original thread.
--
-- FotW
The Marmite FAQ
http://www.gty.org/~phil/marmite.htm
Flame of the West
> I tried subbing to some of the Yahoo! groups Tolkien
> lists and all they wanted to talk about was how
> attractive the actors in the movie were, couldn't
> unsub fast enough :-).
Over in AFT, they bitch constantly about how Cate
Blanchett isn't pretty enough to be Galadriel. Of
course she's plenty pretty but her Galadriel outfit
is the most unflattering thing I've ever seen her wear.
Donald Shepherd
Fo...@nospam.solinas.org says...
> Over in AFT, they bitch constantly about how Cate
> Blanchett isn't pretty enough to be Galadriel.
Still? I thought that died a couple of months after the release of the
movie.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
"To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid"
the softrat
>On 27 pa? 2002, TIMMY-...@webtv.net scribbled loosely:
>
>> It's clear to me that this group has it's little clique or whatever you
>> want to call yourselves that think their superior then any new people
>> that post in here,seems all you people like to do is argue with anyone
>> not in your little inner circle..really kinda sad how anal you people
>> are
>
>You're right. It is very hard to get into our little clique. It takes years
>and years of regular posting - and on topic only - as well as passing many
>initiation rituals (such as winning the flame war with Softrat). Just like
>I did. But not everyone is as skilled as us. It is a wise move you make.
>Retreat before it's too late.
Boy, you sure settled *his* hash! Now he can go be useful by inventing
a cure for anthrax or Bill Gate or something.
Visualize Whirled Peas!
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
-- Groucho Marx
the softrat
<mpr...@chartermi.net> wrote:
>In message <4903-3DB...@storefull-2174.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
>TIMMY-...@webtv.net wrote:
>> It's clear to me that this group has it's little clique or whatever you
>> want to call yourselves that think their superior then any new people
>> that post in here,seems all you people like to do is argue with anyone
>> not in your little inner circle..really kinda sad how anal you people
>> are
>
>Being rather new here-abouts myself, I cannot but disagree.
Thank you, Mr. Reed. Live long and prosper.
May a star shine upon your path.
(similar to whuht?)
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"So tell me, just how long have you had this feeling that no one
is watching you?" (Christopher Locke: Entropy Gradient Reversals)
the softrat
<lotsa....@rottnest.island.com.au> wrote:
>
>I got flamed, by some smarmy bastard. He told me to go back and read the
>books (all well and fine), but he could have answered my question, there and
>then. But no, he had to be rude, and well... "Pompous"...
>
your pecker for you.
Learn to pee standing up, like the big boys.
(To the Group: do you think that this is appropriate to 'Darth
Quokka's' mental and emotional level or should I have dumbed it down
some?)
the softrat
<cmc...@removethis.swbell.net> wrote:
>Personally I like the strictness of this group... I
>tried subbing to some of the Yahoo! groups Tolkien
>lists and all they wanted to talk about was how
>attractive the actors in the movie were, couldn't
>unsub fast enough :-). I admire the understanding you
>guys have of his Tolkien and his work, hope to get
>more of that myself soon.
Thank you, Mr. Conn, and welcome. Live long and prosper.
May a star shine upon your path.
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
TIMMY-...@webtv.net
Re: I think I will Stop posting here
Thank you for your comments, but when people want to argue about
bookmarks I think it's really time to go
TIMMY-...@webtv.net
Re: I think I will Stop posting here
From: lotsa....@rottnest.island.com.au (Darth Quokka)
Yeah Darth they seem to think their "cool" or something by being
ignorant to anyone that does not reach their "oh so high and mighty
status" really sad how they take pride in being jerks
the softrat
<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <3DBCB18F...@nospam.solinas.org>,
>Fo...@nospam.solinas.org says...
>> Over in AFT, they bitch constantly about how Cate
>> Blanchett isn't pretty enough to be Galadriel.
>
>Still? I thought that died a couple of months after the release of the
>movie.
I think that that quote was dredged out of the archives, or possibly
by one of the trolls or in one of the political threads, all of which
I have killfiled.
I *love* my killfile!
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Give your child mental blocks for Christmas.
Stan Brown
I've always liked the form "Don't let the door bang you in the ass
on the way out", but the sentiment is the same.
Perhaps when he passes the emotional age of ten he'll come back and
participate.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
"Honesty always gives you the advantage of surprise."
-- /Yes, Prime Minister/
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:45:10 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <3DBCB18F...@nospam.solinas.org>,
> >Fo...@nospam.solinas.org says...
> >> Over in AFT, they bitch constantly about how Cate
> >> Blanchett isn't pretty enough to be Galadriel.
> >
> >Still? I thought that died a couple of months after the release of the
> >movie.
>
> I think that that quote was dredged out of the archives, or possibly
> by one of the trolls or in one of the political threads, all of which
> I have killfiled.
>
> I *love* my killfile!
I suppose it could be in a political thread... "Cate Blanchett isn't
pretty enough to be Galadriel because she supports Palestinian
terrorism." Yes, has a nice ring to it.
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 00:09:52 GMT, Chris Conn
> <cmc...@removethis.swbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Personally I like the strictness of this group... I
> >tried subbing to some of the Yahoo! groups Tolkien
> >lists and all they wanted to talk about was how
> >attractive the actors in the movie were, couldn't
> >unsub fast enough :-). I admire the understanding you
> >guys have of his Tolkien and his work, hope to get
> >more of that myself soon.
>
> Thank you, Mr. Conn, and welcome. Live long and prosper.
>
> May a star shine upon your path.
...
Softy said that to someone?
I'd watch out, you're going to need a hell of a lot of bad karma to
balance that one out.
--
*Dlanod*, *the* *Sparkly* *Nazgul*
Pimp of Morgoth, Worshipper of Arwen Lune, Rider of Ducks, Fool of AFT
"If Tolkien had meant for us to have a sense of humor, he would have
told us so." - Mark Reichart
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:26:24 -0500, Michael P Reed
> <mpr...@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
> >In message <4903-3DB...@storefull-2174.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
> >TIMMY-...@webtv.net wrote:
> >> It's clear to me that this group has it's little clique or whatever you
> >> want to call yourselves that think their superior then any new people
> >> that post in here,seems all you people like to do is argue with anyone
> >> not in your little inner circle..really kinda sad how anal you people
> >> are
> >
> >Being rather new here-abouts myself, I cannot but disagree.
>
> Thank you, Mr. Reed. Live long and prosper.
>
> May a star shine upon your path.
>
> (similar to whuht?)
The same goes for you, Michael.
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> (To the Group: do you think that this is appropriate to 'Darth
> Quokka's' mental and emotional level or should I have dumbed it down
> some?)
I'd say it's appropriate to your mental and emotional level, which is
obviously deteriorating quickly in your latter years. It's time for
your sedatives, you're biting too many again.
Flame of the West
> Softy said that to someone?
He's just avoiding flaming Chris Conn so he won't become a regular.
Flame of the West
> Thank you, Mr. Reed. Live long and prosper.
>
> May a star shine upon your path.
Alright, break it up already! Enough niceness from you.
Flame of the West
> Jeez, you dumb little egos get so offended when someone won't hold
> your pecker for you.
>
> Learn to pee standing up, like the big boys.
Now *that's* the softie I know!
Michael Graf
"Stan Brown" <qx1...@bigfoot.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:MPG.1826a7736...@news.odyssey.net...
> I've always liked the form "Don't let the door bang you in the ass
> on the way out", but the sentiment is the same.
I may be making a translation error...but isn't a door too big for that?
--
An apple a day
Keeps Bill Ferny away
Donald Shepherd
> Hi!
>
> "Stan Brown" <qx1...@bigfoot.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:MPG.1826a7736...@news.odyssey.net...
>
> > I've always liked the form "Don't let the door bang you in the ass
> > on the way out", but the sentiment is the same.
>
> I may be making a translation error...but isn't a door too big for that?
Took me a while, but LOL.
Depends on the door I guess...
Joy
> the softrat wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Mr. Reed. Live long and prosper.
> >
> > May a star shine upon your path.
>
> Alright, break it up already! Enough niceness from you.
<whimper>
It's making me scared...
</whimper>
-joy
Joy
> AC <sp...@nospam.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Don't trip on your way out...
>
> I've always liked the form "Don't let the door bang you in
> the ass on the way out", but the sentiment is the same.
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya."
-yoj
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>Re: I think I will Stop posting here
>
So much for your promise.
Stan Brown
Michael Graf <gr...@rhrk.uni-kl.de> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Hi!
>
>"Stan Brown" <qx1...@bigfoot.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:MPG.1826a7736...@news.odyssey.net...
>
>> I've always liked the form "Don't let the door bang you in the ass
>> on the way out", but the sentiment is the same.
>
>I may be making a translation error...but isn't a door too big for that?
Michael, I didn't realize until this that you are not a native
English speaker, but I see now that you post from Deutschland. My
congratulations on your command of English!
"Bang you on the ass" would be more logical (and is also heard), but
"bang you in the ass" is idiomatic and means the same. There is no,
er, penetration implied.
A similar idiom is "a swift kick in the pants". For instance, if a
term paper was assigned in September and is due in December, and by
November 15 none of the students have yet submitted their topics, I
might "give them a swift kick in the pants", which means remind them
pretty firmly.
The difference between the two is that "swift kick in the pants" is
used with some affection, but "don't let the door bang you in/on the
ass" implies that the person is beyond saving, at least at this
time. (The older idiom was "Good riddance", or in full "Good
riddance to bad rubbish.")
I love English -- I think Tolkien's supple use of the language is
one reason I keep coming back to his stories.
stealth...@-remove-yahoo.com
wrote:
>TIMMY-...@webtv.net <TIMMY-...@webtv.net> wrote in
>rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>
>>Re: I think I will Stop posting here
>>
>
>So much for your promise.
Y'all are aware that all that you are doing is validating his
statement?
the softrat
BOOWAHWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Hallowe'en is Coming!
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
A hush fell over the courtroom, injuring six.
Bill O'Meally
"Flame of the West" <Fo...@nospam.solinas.org> wrote in message
news:3DBCB0E8...@nospam.solinas.org...
> TIMMY-...@webtv.net wrote:
> >
> > It's clear to me that this group has it's little clique or whatever you
> > want to call yourselves that think their superior then any new people
> > that post in here,seems all you people like to do is argue with anyone
> > not in your little inner circle..
>
> Timmy, I've been over in the other NG lately, but having seen this
> post, I went and checked a few threads that you've started or
> joined. I didn't see much abuse, except from Stan Brown and the
> softrat, but don't take their abuse personally, they do it to everyone.
> I personally would urge you to stick around. You're more on topic
> than most, and you're not afraid to start an original thread.
The trouble there would be many of us have probably already killfiled the
whiney sot!
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Troels Forchhammer
>
> I love English -- I think Tolkien's supple use of the language is
> one reason I keep coming back to his stories.
I love my native tongue and there are still many things that I find
I can only express properly in Danish, but still I also love English,
and Tolkien's use of that language is no small part of that love.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
Troels Forchhammer
It's all right, it's all right, it really is ...
Don't be afraid of him - see, it's just good old
nuncle softie with a false beard - see
Troels Forchhammer
>
> the softrat wrote:
>
> > Jeez, you dumb little egos get so offended when someone won't hold
> > your pecker for you.
> >
> > Learn to pee standing up, like the big boys.
>
> Now *that's* the softie I know!
See, Joy - he's taken the beard off now ;-)
Troels Forchhammer
>
> I got that impression, when I asked a question about Tom Bombadil...
>
> I got flamed, by some smarmy bastard. He told me to go back and read the
> books (all well and fine), but he could have answered my question, there and
> then. But no, he had to be rude, and well... "Pompous"...
It is generally considered polite / common courtesy on usenet to lurk
a bit before you post in a group and to make sure you have visited the
group's FAQ.
The questions you posed showed - or at least very strongly indicated -
that you hadn't taken the trouble to follow common courtesy in this
matter - what can I say, some people will just more readily take
offence at impoliteness or a lack of common courtesy.
Michael Graf
"Stan Brown" <qx1...@bigfoot.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Michael, I didn't realize until this that you are not a native
> English speaker, but I see now that you post from Deutschland. My
> congratulations on your command of English!
Thank you, but you've forgotten the ";-)"...;-) ah, there it is!
I do my best, but as English is not my native language, my vocabulary is
probably somewhat limited in comparison to Englishmen or Americans.
> "Bang you on the ass" would be more logical (and is also heard), but
> "bang you in the ass" is idiomatic and means the same. There is no,
> er, penetration implied.
So, no back-door-affair? :-)
[snip]
To tell you the truth: It was a little joke of mine. Nevertheless, I thank
you for your linguistic explanations! :-)
> I love English -- I think Tolkien's supple use of the language is
> one reason I keep coming back to his stories.
One thing I sometimes fear is that by reading Tolkien over and over again
my English becomes a little bit "old-stylish".
"Fucketh thee in thy own knee" does definitely not sound cool.
Michael Graf
"Donald Shepherd" <donald_...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:MPG.1827e0001...@news.uq.edu.au...
> In article <apj2ru$59b$3...@news.uni-kl.de>, gr...@rhrk.uni-kl.de says...
> > I may be making a translation error...but isn't a door too big for
that?
> Took me a while, but LOL.
> Depends on the door I guess...
A round hobbit-door should make things easier. :-)
Donald Shepherd
says...
> Flame of the West wrote:
> >
> > the softrat wrote:
> >
> > > Jeez, you dumb little egos get so offended when someone won't hold
> > > your pecker for you.
> > >
> > > Learn to pee standing up, like the big boys.
> >
> > Now *that's* the softie I know!
>
> See, Joy - he's taken the beard off now ;-)
As long as it was just the beard he took off...
Donald Shepherd
OMea...@wi.rr.com says...
*sigh*
If you've killfiled him, why bother replying to a thread about him
leaving? It won't make any difference to you, since you won't see his
posts anyway...
Boris Badenov
|Re: I think I will Stop posting here
Sorry to hear that. New blood is the lifeblood of newsgroups. Without them we're little
more than online bars. Think Cheers through a modem. You fellas might find
alt.fan.tolkien more to your liking.
____
Faith is about believing in something, and letting it change you ..
You don't fix faith; faith fixes you. -- Book, Firefly
Boris Badenov
|One thing I sometimes fear is that by reading Tolkien over and over again
|my English becomes a little bit "old-stylish".
|"Fucketh thee in thy own knee" does definitely not sound cool.
Well, that notwithstanding, you could do a lot worse than sound like Prof Tolkien .. There
are many in this country, who are neither bi-lingual, nor uni-lingual, but *non-lingual*
..
Boris Badenov
|I love my native tongue and there are still many things that I find
|I can only express properly in Danish, but still I also love English,
|and Tolkien's use of that language is no small part of that love
I envy your fluency in two languages, for only those who've studied more than one language
can appreciate their differences. The study of language is at once a boon to logic, for
it can only be mastered logically, unless you measure your age in single digits; then an
intuitive approach is best. It also broadens your outlook. It makes one see things in
new and different ways; the very process of communicating in a second language requires
this. Finally, when you really understand the nature of language, you understand that two
people communicating in a language that you don't understand are also communicating
certain thoughts - certain concepts and subtleties - which you cannot understand because
they have no analog in your language. I know this, but I know this much more
superficially than you do.
the softrat
<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>If you've killfiled him, why bother replying to a thread about him
>leaving? It won't make any difference to you, since you won't see his
>posts anyway...
Not true! His posts appear quoted in the posts of all the morons who
don't snip.
Du'h!
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
May the Farce Be With You
Donald Shepherd
sof...@pobox.com says...
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:32:08 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >If you've killfiled him, why bother replying to a thread about him
> >leaving? It won't make any difference to you, since you won't see his
> >posts anyway...
>
> Not true! His posts appear quoted in the posts of all the morons who
> don't snip.
>
> Du'h!
Then why on earth haven't you killfiled those morons for not snipping?
You're getting slow softy.
pawn
news:MPG.1828810e5...@news.uq.edu.au...
> In article <2qmrru80tvm2tm1h1...@4ax.com>,
> sof...@pobox.com says...
> > On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:32:08 +1000, Donald Shepherd
> > <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >If you've killfiled him, why bother replying to a thread about him
> > >leaving? It won't make any difference to you, since you won't see his
> > >posts anyway...
> >
> > Not true! His posts appear quoted in the posts of all the morons who
> > don't snip.
> >
> > Du'h!
>
> Then why on earth haven't you killfiled those morons for not snipping?
> You're getting slow softy.
"softy" sounds about right. He's certainly compensating for something.
David Sulger
> It is very hard to get into our little clique. It takes years and years of
> regular posting - and on topic only - as well as passing many initiation
> rituals (such as winning the flame war with Softrat). Just like I did.
::raises eyebrow::
I don't seem to recall you being here for "years and years".
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> I love English -- I think Tolkien's supple use of the language is
>> one reason I keep coming back to his stories.
>
>I love my native tongue and there are still many things that I find
>I can only express properly in Danish, but still I also love English,
>and Tolkien's use of that language is no small part of that love.
Did you know one of the greatest grammarians of English was a Dane?
Otto Jespersen (born 1860 Randers, died 1943 Roskilde)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
"Thoroughness. I always tell my students, but they are
constitutionally averse to painstaking work."
-- Emma Thompson, in /Wit/ (2000)
Stan Brown
>my English becomes a little bit "old-stylish".
>"Fucketh thee in thy own knee" does definitely not sound cool.
Yup, I had the same problem with French because I liked reading
Dumas and Maupaassant, so my vocabulary is very much 19th century.
Joy
> Joy wrote:
> >> the softrat wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thank you, Mr. Reed. Live long and prosper.
> >>>
> >>> May a star shine upon your path.
> >>
> >> Alright, break it up already! Enough niceness from you.
> >
> > <whimper>
> > It's making me scared...
> > </whimper>
>
> It's all right, it's all right, it really is ...
> Don't be afraid of him - see, it's just good old
> nuncle softie with a false beard - see
<sniffle>
wlokaz...
<tugs on beard>
<giggle>
;o)
-yoj
Joy
> Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk says...
> > Flame of the West wrote:
> > > the softrat wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jeez, you dumb little egos get so offended when someone
> > > > won't hold your pecker for you.
> > > >
> > > > Learn to pee standing up, like the big boys.
> > >
> > > Now *that's* the softie I know!
> >
> > See, Joy - he's taken the beard off now ;-)
>
> As long as it was just the beard he took off...
LOL!!
-joy
Pradera
loosely:
>
>> It is very hard to get into our little clique. It takes years and
>> years of regular posting - and on topic only - as well as passing
>> many initiation rituals (such as winning the flame war with Softrat).
>> Just like I did.
>
>::raises eyebrow::
>
> I don't seem to recall you being here for "years and years".
>
>
I don't seem to recall you losing your sense of irony ;)
--
Pradera
---
Akai suna no ue ni saita shiroi hana
Daiyou no mashita de yureru chiisana kage
Tori no mure ga naiteiru
Douzo Douzo Shiawase ni
The American
"Boris Badenov" <bb...@frostbite.falls.state.mn.us> wrote in message
news:r5grruoi1jhlaoj38...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 00:28:10 -0500 (EST), TIMMY-...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> |Re: I think I will Stop posting here
>
>
> Sorry to hear that. New blood is the lifeblood of newsgroups. Without
them we're little
> more than online bars. Think Cheers through a modem. You fellas might
find
> alt.fan.tolkien more to your liking.
>
>
alt.fan.tolkien will eat them alive.
Kristian Damm Jensen
> Yeah Darth they seem to think their "cool" or something by being
> ignorant to anyone that does not reach their "oh so high and mighty
> status" really sad how they take pride in being jerks
Damn it. Couldn't you keep to your promise.
Now I have to *plonk*
--
Kristian Damm Jensen | Feed the hungry at www.thehungersite.com
kristian-d...@cgey.com | Two wrongs doesn't make a right,
ICQ# 146728724 | but three lefts do.
Troels Forchhammer
>
>> I love English -- I think Tolkien's supple use of the language is
>> one reason I keep coming back to his stories.
>
> One thing I sometimes fear is that by reading Tolkien over and over again
> my English becomes a little bit "old-stylish".
I (think I) know exactly how you feel ;-)
Back in the last year of the previous millennium (that has a nice ring,
hasn't it ;-), my scout troop was host for an English troop (Corby).
While I was commended for my English they also insisted that it was
almost archaic (that was maybe a slight exaggeration). I think that
many here will know the word 'defenestration' but initially the English
leaders didn't believe that to be an actual word in English ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
Troels Forchhammer
>
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:22:35 +0100, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk> wrote:
>
> |I love my native tongue and there are still many things that I find
> |I can only express properly in Danish, but still I also love English,
> |and Tolkien's use of that language is no small part of that love
>
> I envy your fluency in two languages, for only those who've studied
> more than one language can appreciate their differences.
I have this idea that a language describes its home turf, so to speak.
The clearest example is probably that of the words for landscapes. In
Danish the Germanic word for mountains were actually used for large
hills (after Danish standards - the highest natural point in Denmark
is some 176 m above sea level ;-) - and likewise there are a number
of words in the Scandinavian languages that describe landscapes
(fjord, fjeld, elv etc.) that are specific to the Scandinavian
Peninsula. On the same theme the Greenland Inuit has a large number
(I don't recall the exact number) of words for snow.
One of the things I love about English is that it has by the contact
with other languages (in the colonies and other places) adopted a
number of words from these - to the enrichment of English.
The rest of us now just adopt words from English ;-)
> It also broadens your outlook. It makes one see things in new and
> different ways; the very process of communicating in a second
> language requires this.
You learn a _lot_ about the world outside the boarders of your
own linguistic area, just by learning a second language.
> Finally, when you really understand the nature of language, you
> understand that two people communicating in a language that you
> don't understand are also communicating certain thoughts - certain
> concepts and subtleties - which you cannot understand because
> they have no analog in your language. I know this, but I know
> this much more superficially than you do.
Even when there's a clear analogue in the two languages,
understanding is by no means ascertained. I have frequently had to
pursue subtle differences in the understanding of a word - even
when the word has a clear-cut translation into Danish derived from
the same Latin or Germanic stem (or even in some cases the English
word can be derived from an old Danish word, but still be used
slightly different today than the modern Danish derivative).
It is frustrating - it is beautiful - it is interesting.
Donald Shepherd
says...
> Back in the last year of the previous millennium (that has a nice ring,
> hasn't it ;-), my scout troop was host for an English troop (Corby).
> While I was commended for my English they also insisted that it was
> almost archaic (that was maybe a slight exaggeration). I think that
> many here will know the word 'defenestration' but initially the English
> leaders didn't believe that to be an actual word in English ;-)
Who said Eddings was good for nothing? That's where I learnt that word,
and use it as often as possible. :)
Michael Graf
"Boris Badenov" <bb...@frostbite.falls.state.mn.us> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:mlirruk374m77sfuh...@4ax.com...
> Well, that notwithstanding, you could do a lot worse than sound like Prof
Tolkien .. There
> are many in this country, who are neither bi-lingual, nor uni-lingual,
but *non-lingual*
Which country? Germany?
Mmmh, you're right, sometimes when I come home late on Friday evening I'm
also "non-lingual".
Michael Graf
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3DBED353...@ThisIsFake.fk...
> I (think I) know exactly how you feel ;-)
> Back in the last year of the previous millennium (that has a nice ring,
> hasn't it ;-), my scout troop was host for an English troop (Corby).
> While I was commended for my English they also insisted that it was
> almost archaic (that was maybe a slight exaggeration). I think that
> many here will know the word 'defenestration' but initially the English
> leaders didn't believe that to be an actual word in English ;-)
Yeah, I had almost the same experience with an american exchange student
from the Michigan State University/Detroit who used to dwell in our
flat-sharing community for 3 months. But only in the beginning...on the
third day he became instantly addicted to german beer, and didn't talk any
more. :-)
I will never forget the delighted glance in his eyes when he walked the
paveway with a beerbottle in each hand...and without being arrested! :-)
Ermanna
TIMMY-...@webtv.net made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
<shnip>
> Yeah Darth they seem to think their "cool" or something by being
> ignorant to anyone
What?
> that does not reach their "oh so high and mighty
> status"
No, we're nice to newbies who aren't lazy.
> really sad how they take pride in being jerks
WE don't flame whole newsgroups.
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Rivendell,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles,
Protector of Kittens and Hamsters, Wielder of Tinwė
Warrior Princess of AFT/RABT
You can never become whole unless you embrace the weirdness in
yourself.
the softrat
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk> wrote:
>
>Back in the last year of the previous millennium (that has a nice ring,
>hasn't it ;-), my scout troop was host for an English troop (Corby).
>While I was commended for my English they also insisted that it was
>almost archaic (that was maybe a slight exaggeration). I think that
>many here will know the word 'defenestration' but initially the English
>leaders didn't believe that to be an actual word in English ;-)
What part of England were these leader from, Nebraska?
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
If the world was a logical place, *men* would ride horses
side-saddle.
Kristian Damm Jensen
>
> I have this idea that a language describes its home turf, so to speak.
> The clearest example is probably that of the words for landscapes. In
> Danish the Germanic word for mountains were actually used for large
> hills (after Danish standards - the highest natural point in Denmark
> is some 176 m above sea level ;-) -
Do you always have to exagerate like that? :-) It's 173 m! Unless you
take into acocunt the bronze age mound on the top, in which case it is
another hill close by, reaching 171 m.
> and likewise there are a number
> of words in the Scandinavian languages that describe landscapes
> (fjord, fjeld, elv etc.) that are specific to the Scandinavian
> Peninsula. On the same theme the Greenland Inuit has a large number
> (I don't recall the exact number) of words for snow.
Two. The urban myth that there are more, is just that: a myth.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> (after Danish standards - the highest natural point in Denmark
>> is some 176 m above sea level ;-) -
>
> Do you always have to exagerate like that? :-) It's 173 m! Unless you
> take into acocunt the bronze age mound on the top, in which case it is
> another hill close by, reaching 171 m.
Seems as if my memory was particularly bad yesterday ;-)
I stand corrected.
>> On the same theme the Greenland Inuit has a large number
>> (I don't recall the exact number) of words for snow.
>
> Two. The urban myth that there are more, is just that: a myth.
I once heard an Eskimo give the number. I don't recall it
exactly, but it was considerably higher than that. He may,
however, have included various words for ice (IIRC it stemmed
from the dog sleighs and might easily have been the number of
words for different kinds of frozen water support for sleighing).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of
thinking with which we created them.
Albert Einstein
Troels Forchhammer
>
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:28:35 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk> wrote:
>>
>> Back in the last year of the previous millennium (that has a nice ring,
>> hasn't it ;-), my scout troop was host for an English troop (Corby).
> What part of England were these leader from, Nebraska?
;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Elan síla lúmenn' omentielvo
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>> On the same theme the Greenland Inuit has a large number
>> (I don't recall the exact number) of words for snow.
>
>Two. The urban myth that there are more, is just that: a myth.
Thanks, KDJ! I was pretty sure that was a myth, but didn't have a
citation. But today I felt moved to google a bit and I came up with
this:
http://www.mendosa.com/snow.html
It contains a mildly witty satire in the form of 100 pseudo-words
for snow, including "wa-ter" for melted snow.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"My theory was a perfectly good one. The facts were misleading."
-- /The Lady Vanishes/ (1938)
Jim Deutch
<donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <3DBED353...@ThisIsFake.fk>, Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk
>says...
>> Back in the last year of the previous millennium (that has a nice ring,
>> hasn't it ;-), my scout troop was host for an English troop (Corby).
>> While I was commended for my English they also insisted that it was
>> almost archaic (that was maybe a slight exaggeration). I think that
>> many here will know the word 'defenestration' but initially the English
>> leaders didn't believe that to be an actual word in English ;-)
>
>Who said Eddings was good for nothing? That's where I learnt that word,
>and use it as often as possible. :)
I learned it from Walt Kelly's "Pogo", myself. "Defenestration is too
good for him: throw him out the window!"
A very fine word indeed.
Jim Deutch
--
"Regime change begins at home."
Joy
> Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
> > Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>
> >> On the same theme the Greenland Inuit has a large number
> >> (I don't recall the exact number) of words for snow.
> >
> > Two. The urban myth that there are more, is just that: a myth.
>
> I once heard an Eskimo give the number. I don't recall it
> exactly, but it was considerably higher than that. He may,
> however, have included various words for ice (IIRC it stemmed
> from the dog sleighs and might easily have been the number of
> words for different kinds of frozen water support for sleighing).
I was under the impression that there are about 10 or 12. I'd assume that it
would also depend on the particular language group. (But it's certainly
nowhere near 300 or whatever the myth is.)
-joy
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>I learned it from Walt Kelly's "Pogo", myself. "Defenestration is too
>good for him: throw him out the window!"
>
>A very fine word indeed.
Not to pick on Jim, but has no one studied any European history? The
Defenestration of Prague was not some sort of rock group (though it
would make a good name for one, as Dave Barry might say), but one of
the precipitating events of the Thirty Years War.
I know I'm an old fart, but surely _someone_ else in the group had
to study history in high school?
From my 1999 Britannica CD:
"Prague, Defenestration of (May 23, 1618), incident of Bohemian
resistance to Habsburg authority that preceded the beginning of the
Thirty Years' War. In 1617 Roman Catholic officials in Bohemia
closed Protestant chapels that were being constructed by citizens of
the towns of Broumov and Hrob, thus violating the guarantees of
religious liberty laid down in the Letter of Majesty
(Majestätsbrief) of Emperor Rudolf II (1609).
"In response, the defensors, appointed under the Letter of Majesty
to safeguard Protestant rights, called an assembly of Protestants at
Prague, where the imperial regents, William Slavata and Jaroslav
Martinic, were tried and found guilty of violating the Letter of
Majesty and, with their secretary, Fabricius, were thrown from the
windows of the council room of Hradcany (Prague Castle) on May 23,
1618. Although inflicting no serious injury on the victims, that
act, known as the Defenestration of Prague, was a signal for the
beginning of a Bohemian revolt against the Habsburg emperor
Ferdinand II, which marked one of the opening phases of the Thirty
Years' War."
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Josep
> to study history in high school?
I did. But since I live en Europe, it has little merit :-)
Pep
Donald Shepherd
@bigfoot.com says...
> Jim Deutch <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >
> >I learned it from Walt Kelly's "Pogo", myself. "Defenestration is too
> >good for him: throw him out the window!"
> >
> >A very fine word indeed.
>
> Not to pick on Jim, but has no one studied any European history? The
> Defenestration of Prague was not some sort of rock group (though it
> would make a good name for one, as Dave Barry might say), but one of
> the precipitating events of the Thirty Years War.
>
> I know I'm an old fart, but surely _someone_ else in the group had
> to study history in high school?
What, you were around then? :D
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
Our history classes pretty much skipped from ancient civilisations to
WWII.
Donald Shepherd
donald_...@hotmail.com says...
> In article <3DBED353...@ThisIsFake.fk>, Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk
> says...
> > Back in the last year of the previous millennium (that has a nice ring,
> > hasn't it ;-), my scout troop was host for an English troop (Corby).
> > While I was commended for my English they also insisted that it was
> > almost archaic (that was maybe a slight exaggeration). I think that
> > many here will know the word 'defenestration' but initially the English
> > leaders didn't believe that to be an actual word in English ;-)
>
> Who said Eddings was good for nothing? That's where I learnt that word,
> and use it as often as possible. :)
Rereading this, maybe I should specify that I use the word, not the act.
;)
Donald Shepherd
@pfs21.ex.nus.edu.sg>, queen_y...@THIShotmail.com says...
I usually hear about 25 - 30, which sounds reasonable...
Pradera
loosely:
>> I was under the impression that there are about 10 or 12. I'd assume
>> that it would also depend on the particular language group. (But it's
>> certainly nowhere near 300 or whatever the myth is.)
>
> I usually hear about 25 - 30, which sounds reasonable...
What do you mean 'reasonable'??
One is enough... with appropriate adjectives...maybe they just don't know
adjectives.
--
Pradera
---
One command to plonk them all
And in my killfile bind them.
Steve Hayes
>Jim Deutch <10313...@compuserve.com> wrote in
>rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>>
>>I learned it from Walt Kelly's "Pogo", myself. "Defenestration is too
>>good for him: throw him out the window!"
>>
>>A very fine word indeed.
>
>Not to pick on Jim, but has no one studied any European history? The
>Defenestration of Prague was not some sort of rock group (though it
>would make a good name for one, as Dave Barry might say), but one of
>the precipitating events of the Thirty Years War.
>
>I know I'm an old fart, but surely _someone_ else in the group had
>to study history in high school?
When in high school I had to choose between History and Latin, and was made to
"choose" Latin.
So though I knew the phrase, I had no idea of what it signified, and when I
studied history at university, I didn't cover that period.
I do, however, know a little about the Defenestration of Kimberley, when
Phakamile Mabija, a youth worker in the Anglican Church, fell to his death
from the offices of the South African Security Police in 1977.
That happened to quite a number of people who disagreed with the government of
the day, or were perceived by the Security Police as doing so. I seem to
recall that a question was once asked about one of these incidents in
Parliament, and the relevant minister replied that "He was not thrown out of
the window, he was defenestrated."
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.methodius.bookcrossing.com/
Troels Forchhammer
>
> What do you mean 'reasonable'??
> One is enough... with appropriate adjectives...maybe they just
> don't know adjectives.
That depends entirely on the importance of the word/concept for the
speakers of that particular language. How many different words do you
have in Polish for 'dwelling' - depending on size and function?
(In English it should cover from hut and cottage to palace and hotel.)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe
And Reboot +++
-- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)
Pradera
loosely:
>
> That depends entirely on the importance of the word/concept for the
> speakers of that particular language. How many different words do you
> have in Polish for 'dwelling' - depending on size and function?
> (In English it should cover from hut and cottage to palace and hotel.)
>
>
Big house, small house and outhouse should be enough for everybody :)
Kristian Damm Jensen
>
> Pradera wrote:
> >
> > Donald Shepherd <donald_...@hotmail.com> scribbled loosely:
> >>
> >> I usually hear about 25 - 30, which sounds reasonable...
> >
> > What do you mean 'reasonable'??
> > One is enough... with appropriate adjectives...maybe they just
> > don't know adjectives.
>
> That depends entirely on the importance of the word/concept for the
> speakers of that particular language. How many different words do you
> have in Polish for 'dwelling' - depending on size and function?
> (In English it should cover from hut and cottage to palace and hotel.)
As I recall, the point of the different words for snow is that, Inuit
(or at least the dialect of which I have reasonably accurate
information, namely western greenlandic) does not have one word to
describe all kinds of snow. They have two, one for snow falling from the
sky and one for snow lying on the ground.
Joy
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> > Pradera wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I usually hear about 25 - 30, which sounds reasonable...
> > >
> > > What do you mean 'reasonable'??
> > > One is enough... with appropriate adjectives...maybe they
> > > just don't know adjectives.
> >
> > That depends entirely on the importance of the word/concept
> > for the speakers of that particular language. How many different
> > words do you have in Polish for 'dwelling' - depending on size
> > and function? (In English it should cover from hut and cottage
> > to palace and hotel.)
>
> As I recall, the point of the different words for snow is that, Inuit
> (or at least the dialect of which I have reasonably accurate
> information, namely western greenlandic) does not have one word
> to describe all kinds of snow. They have two, one for snow falling
> from the sky and one for snow lying on the ground.
I was under the impression that large number of words for "snow" aren't
really *just* "snow" (the one word), but names for different states/types of
snow and other snow-related things... other than 'falling snow' and 'snow on
the ground', they'd include 'snowstorm', 'powder', 'frost', 'snowflake',
'freshly fallen snow', 'snow bank', 'a block of snow', 'those little
particles of snow that cling to your sweater'... etc.
The language usually referred to when people talk about Inuit snow-words is
Yupik (sp?), I believe. It's spoken in groups through
Alaska-Canada-Greenland... is this the one you're familiar with?
-joy
Stan Brown
>On 06 lis 2002, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.fk> scribbled
>loosely:
>> That depends entirely on the importance of the word/concept for the
>> speakers of that particular language. How many different words do you
>> have in Polish for 'dwelling' - depending on size and function?
>> (In English it should cover from hut and cottage to palace and hotel.)
>
>Big house, small house and outhouse should be enough for everybody :)
Domego, domo, and dometo. :-)
(Did you know that a movie was made in Esperanto? It's /Incubus/,
starring William Shatner of all people, and directed by one of the
moving forces behind the original /Outer Limits/.)
Jamie Andrews
Kristian Damm Jensen <kristian-da...@MOVEcgey.com> wrote:
>(or at least the dialect of which I have reasonably accurate
>information, namely western greenlandic) does not have one word to
>describe all kinds of snow. They have two, one for snow falling from the
>sky and one for snow lying on the ground.
See
www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd/mymusings/eskimo.html
for one "accepted" version of the facts, insisting that the
whole "N words for snow in Eskimo" thing is a myth. Note,
however, that there are some who say that Pullum's popular
article, and the earlier Martin scholarly article, contain their
own exaggerations and special pleading in order to throw rocks
at their bugbear, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.
I've read Pullum's article, and was very offended by the
snide way in which he referred to Benjamin Whorf, a fine scholar
who happened to be working at a time when one could hold a day
job (in Whorf's case, working for a fire insurance company) and
be a scholar in one's spare time. The Pullum article did not
succeed in convincing me of the falsehood of the Sapir-Whorf
hypothesis.
It's also puzzling and frustrating to me that linguists
seem to insist on using the word "Inuit" to refer to a language.
AFAIK, the only people who use that word in their native
language are the native people of the eastern Arctic of Canada,
and "Inuit" is the word they use to refer to themselves. (Most
people in Canada nowadays use the word "Inuit", rather than
"Eskimo", which was originally a derogatory word in a language
of one of the neighbours of the Inuit.) The Inuit refer to
their language as Inuktitut, and that word is well-known in
Canada too. Why not with linguists? Unknown.
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)
Xaonon
<qx1...@bigfoot.com> teithant i thiw hin:
> Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
> > Big house, small house and outhouse should be enough for everybody :)
>
> Domego, domo, and dometo. :-)
>
> (Did you know that a movie was made in Esperanto? It's /Incubus/,
> starring William Shatner of all people, and directed by one of the
> moving forces behind the original /Outer Limits/.)
They also forgot to tell the actors about Esperanto's stress rule (second-
to-last syllable, always) so the words are accented all over the place,
wherever the actors thought sounded right. Esperanto speakers who watch it
invariably break into giggles after the first few minutes of dialogue.
--
Xaonon, EAC Chief of Mad Scientists and informal BAAWA, aa #1821, Kibo #: 1
Visit The Nexus Of All Coolness (i.e. my site) at http://xaonon.dyndns.org/
"No more gods, no more faith, no more timid holding back. The future
belongs to posthumanity." -- Max More
Floyd Davidson
>"Kristian Damm Jensen" <kristian-da...@MOVEcgey.com> wrote :
>> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>> > Pradera wrote:
>> > > Donald Shepherd scribbled loosely:
>> > >>
>> > >> I usually hear about 25 - 30, which sounds reasonable...
>> > >
>> > > What do you mean 'reasonable'??
Good question, though obviously not well thought out as far as
the suggested answer goes:
>> > > One is enough... with appropriate adjectives...maybe they
>> > > just don't know adjectives.
If one is enough, then why does the English language have so
many? Ever listened to a room full of cross country skiers
waxing skiis?
What kind of a comment is "maybe they just don't know adjectives"?
There are at least 20-25 different words for snow in English, so
does that mean none of us know how to use adjectives?????
Or is it more likely that some of us are totally ignorant of how
and why human languages develop! (Not to mention being ignorant
of the specifics of both English and Inuit languages.)
>> As I recall, the point of the different words for snow is that, Inuit
>> (or at least the dialect of which I have reasonably accurate
>> information, namely western greenlandic) does not have one word
>> to describe all kinds of snow. They have two, one for snow falling
>> from the sky and one for snow lying on the ground.
aniu, api-, aput, pukak, qanik, qaniit, qanir
That is a list of the few that I could immediately find, and I
have relatively limited resources for Greenlandic Inuit. All of
the above are listed in "Comparative Eskimo Dictionary With
Aleut Cognates", published in 1994, by Fortescue, Jacobson, and
Kaplan, which essentially means they are common to all Eskimo
languages because local or single language specific words not
clearly derived from Proto-Eskimo are not included in the
dictionary.
>I was under the impression that large number of words for "snow" aren't
>really *just* "snow" (the one word), but names for different states/types of
>snow and other snow-related things... other than 'falling snow' and 'snow on
>the ground', they'd include 'snowstorm', 'powder', 'frost', 'snowflake',
>'freshly fallen snow', 'snow bank', 'a block of snow', 'those little
>particles of snow that cling to your sweater'... etc.
Those are all "snow". But regardless, you've missed the point
that Boas, Whorf, and Safir were all making. And that has to be
understood in light of the circumstances. First, they are all
racists. The whole point was that "primitive" languages and
"primitive" people have limited horizons, unlike the superior
White speakers of English. That prejudiced their view of
"evidence". Boas had a word list for Greenlandic Inuit, which
listed all of four words, "aput 'snow on the ground', gana
'falling snow', piqsirpoq 'drifting snow', and qimuqsuq 'a snow
drift'". (Quoted from "The Handbook of North American Indians",
Franz Boas.)
Whorf morphed that into a list of 7 words (with unknown sources
for the additional 3).
The point is that *none* of them had enough background to say
that any Eskimo language did or did not have more or less words,
or to define what each of those words actually meant. They were
not drawing conclusions from the evidence, they already had a
conclusion and were looking for "evidence" that proved their
point. Whorf made similar claims, equally false, about other
Native American languages.
>The language usually referred to when people talk about Inuit snow-words is
>Yupik (sp?), I believe. It's spoken in groups through
>Alaska-Canada-Greenland... is this the one you're familiar with?
Yup'ik (Central Alaskan Yupik) is most often quoted simply
because Steve Jacobson (working from an effort begun by Irene
Reed) published a relatively extensive, if not complete, "Yup'ik
Eskimo Dictionary" in 1984. I do not know of a similar work for
Canadian or Greenlandic Inuit, and it was not until this year
that a similar work was completed (by Roy Nageak) for Inupiaq
(Northern Alaska Inuit).
Yup'ik is the dialect of Yupik spoken in Western Alaska from
Bristol Bay northward to the Nome area. Other dialects of Yupik
are Alutiiq, spoken from Bristol Bay eastward to Prince William
sound and on Kodiak Island, and Siberian Yupik as spoken on
Saint Lawerence Island and in parts of Siberia. Naukanski
Siberian Yupik and Sirenikski probably no longer exist as spoken
languages.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.ptialaska.net/~floyd>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
Floyd Davidson
> I've read Pullum's article, and was very offended by the
>snide way in which he referred to Benjamin Whorf, a fine scholar
>who happened to be working at a time when one could hold a day
>job (in Whorf's case, working for a fire insurance company) and
>be a scholar in one's spare time. The Pullum article did not
>succeed in convincing me of the falsehood of the Sapir-Whorf
>hypothesis.
Whorf was a basic racist. He supported his claims with
obviously incomplete and inadequate evidence. The idea that
White speakers of English had more expansive thought patterns
that "primitive" people is cute, and his claims that unverified
word lists of Greenlandic Eskimo and Navajo were proof is more
hilarious than anything else.
What was that about him being a "fine scholar"????
> It's also puzzling and frustrating to me that linguists
>seem to insist on using the word "Inuit" to refer to a language.
I don't find it odd at all! But it does require understanding
the etymology of the word "inuit" and some basic understanding
of the development of Eskimo languages. Without going into a
lot of detail, "Inuit" and "Yupik" are the same word in two
cognate languages. They both have the identical meaning, and
they both were derived from the Proto-Eskimo word "Inuy".
If you ask a Yupik person what language they speak, the answer
is Yupik. If you ask an Inuit person the same question, there
are numerous answers (Inupiaq, Inuktitut, and Kalaallisut for
example), but if you ask them if they speak Inuit the answer
will be yes.
>AFAIK, the only people who use that word in their native
>language are the native people of the eastern Arctic of Canada,
>and "Inuit" is the word they use to refer to themselves. (Most
It is part of the Inuit language, which is spoken in different
dialects from the Alaska side of the Bering Straits all the
way across Canada to eastern Greenland. Not all of those
people typically call themselves "Inuit", but they do recognize
the word.
>people in Canada nowadays use the word "Inuit", rather than
>"Eskimo", which was originally a derogatory word in a language
>of one of the neighbours of the Inuit.) The Inuit refer to
No, they use Inuit because the *are* Inuit (which is not
necessarily true in Alaska or Siberia). The word was not
originally derogatory, but in Canada it became a slang word with
distinctly derogatory connotations. Some claim the actually
meant "snowshoe weaver" and Goddard for example is often quoted.
He is probably wrong. See
<http://linguistlist.org/issues/7/7-300.html>
for a short blurb on work done by Canadian anthropologist Jose
Mailhot, who speak fluent Cree and did a definitive work which
attributes the meaning as "People who speak a different
language". Mailhot is from Quebec, publishes in French, and is
little known in the US or on the Internet.
>their language as Inuktitut, and that word is well-known in
>Canada too. Why not with linguists? Unknown.
Inuktitut is not the name of the language, thats why! It is the
name, in Inuit, of the dialect spoken in Canada. English
linguists of course use English words to describe each dialect.
Hence there are, for example, Seward Peninsula Inuit and
Northern Alaska Inuit (both called Inupiaq by the people who
speak it), and Western Canadian Inuit and Eastern Canadian Inuit
(both called Inuktitut by speakers).
Joy
> "Joy" wrote:
>
> >I was under the impression that large number of words for
> >"snow" aren't really *just* "snow" (the one word), but names
> >for different states/types of snow and other snow-related
> >things... other than 'falling snow' and 'snow on the ground',
> >they'd include 'snowstorm', 'powder', 'frost', 'snowflake',
> >'freshly fallen snow', 'snow bank', 'a block of snow', 'those
> >little particles of snow that cling to your sweater'... etc.
>
> Those are all "snow".
Yes, I was kinda trying to say that... that the "number of words for snow"
really doesn't translate to "number of words for that frozen precipitation
that comes in little flakes"... if you know what I mean... bah, I don't.
> But regardless, you've missed the point
> that Boas, Whorf, and Safir were all making.
Because I didn't read a thing from Boas, Whorf, or Safir...
<snip>
> >The language usually referred to when people talk about
> >Inuit snow-words is Yupik (sp?), I believe.
<snip very interesting explanation of Yupik>
Thanks!!
-joy
Jamie Andrews
>> I've read Pullum's article, and was very offended by the
In article <87wunpi...@barrow.com>,
Floyd Davidson <fl...@ptialaska.net> wrote:
>Whorf was a basic racist....
I wasn't referring to whether he was racist according to
our modern-day standards, which may well be true (I'm sure you
have more knowledge on that than I do). I was referring to
Pullum's asides about his day job, which I consider below the
belt. Whether we would consider him a fine scholar today or
not, he was considered as such at the time.
>> It's also puzzling and frustrating to me that linguists
>>seem to insist on using the word "Inuit" to refer to a language.
>
>I don't find it odd at all! But it does require understanding
>the etymology of the word "inuit" and some basic understanding
>of the development of Eskimo languages.
I bump my head on the floor before your towering knowledge. :-)
> Without going into a
>lot of detail, "Inuit" and "Yupik" are the same word in two
>cognate languages.
I don't know what "cognate languages" are... I know what
"cognate words" are, and "related languages", but you'll have to
explain "cognate languages".
> They both have the identical meaning, and
>they both were derived from the Proto-Eskimo word "Inuy".
>
>If you ask a Yupik person what language they speak, the answer
>is Yupik. If you ask an Inuit person the same question, there
>are numerous answers (Inupiaq, Inuktitut, and Kalaallisut for
>example), but if you ask them if they speak Inuit the answer
>will be yes.
OK, I certainly hadn't heard that; I have no reason to
doubt you; however, I wonder if that is just because non-Inuit
so commonly use the word "Inuit" wrongly to refer to the
language. AFAIK, the word "inuk" means "person" and the plural
is "inuit", so it's a noun for a people, not a language. Aren't
there words in these dialects (if they are dialects) for "the
language that all the Inuit speak" (if it is a single language),
other than just the word "Inuit"? (I don't know, I'm asking,
though I am suspicious.)
>>AFAIK, the only people who use that word in their native
>>language are the native people of the eastern Arctic of Canada,
>>and "Inuit" is the word they use to refer to themselves. (Most
>
>It is part of the Inuit language, which is spoken in different
>dialects from the Alaska side of the Bering Straits all the
>way across Canada to eastern Greenland.
Hmmm... earlier in your article, these were "cognate
languages", and now they are dialects of the same language...
OK, these things are always shades of grey. (viz. "dialects" of
Chinese, Norwegian vs. Danish "languages", Languedoc vs. French,
etc.)
> Not all of those
>people typically call themselves "Inuit", but they do recognize
>the word.
>
>>people in Canada nowadays use the word "Inuit", rather than
>>"Eskimo", which was originally a derogatory word in a language
>>of one of the neighbours of the Inuit.) The Inuit refer to
>
>No, they use Inuit because the *are* Inuit (which is not
>necessarily true in Alaska or Siberia).
Pardon? What I was saying in the sentence you are
responding to above was that most people in Canada nowadays,
aboriginal, non-aboriginal, black, white or brown, use the word
"Inuit" to refer to the native people of the eastern Arctic of
Canada (because the people they are referring to *are* Inuit).
That is, most people in Canada including blond lily-white me,
the announcers for the CBC, the Inuit themselves, etc. The same
does not seem to be true of the rest of the world.
> The word was not
>originally derogatory, but in Canada it became a slang word with
>distinctly derogatory connotations. Some claim the actually
>meant "snowshoe weaver" and Goddard for example is often quoted.
>He is probably wrong. See
>
> <http://linguistlist.org/issues/7/7-300.html>
>
>for a short blurb on work done by Canadian anthropologist Jose
>Mailhot, who speak fluent Cree and did a definitive work which
>attributes the meaning as "People who speak a different
>language". Mailhot is from Quebec, publishes in French, and is
>little known in the US or on the Internet.
Thanks, that's interesting information. I had heard that
"eskimo" meant "eater of raw meat" in some Athapaskan language,
but that is probably just some textbook legend.
>>their language as Inuktitut, and that word is well-known in
>>Canada too. Why not with linguists? Unknown.
>
>Inuktitut is not the name of the language, thats why! It is the
>name, in Inuit, of the dialect spoken in Canada. English
>linguists of course use English words to describe each dialect.
>Hence there are, for example, Seward Peninsula Inuit and
>Northern Alaska Inuit (both called Inupiaq by the people who
>speak it), and Western Canadian Inuit and Eastern Canadian Inuit
>(both called Inuktitut by speakers).
My point is, if they are separate languages, why not use
the words Inupiaq and Inuktitut rather than Inuit? If they are
dialects of the same language, do they call the language "Inuit"
because that's really their native name for it, or because
linguists and others insist on calling it "Inuit"? "Basque" is
a long-standing English word, so it would be fatuous to start
referring to it as "Euskadi" in English (sorry to our Basque
speaker if I got that form wrong), but if we are to pick a word
which is less offensive than "Eskimo", then why "Inuit" to
describe the language?
If we're talking about language groups which only linguists
are particularly interested in talking about, then sure, all
bets are off and we can use "Inuit" or "Wakashan" or
"Finno-Ugric" or "Athapaskan" or "Romance" or whatever without
expecting serious criticism. But here we seem to be talking
about single languages, as in "the words for snow in <language name>".
>Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.ptialaska.net/~floyd>
>Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
Jamie Andrews
Floyd Davidson <fl...@ptialaska.net> wrote:
> aniu, api-, aput, pukak, qanik, qaniit, qanir
>That is a list of the few that I could immediately find, and I
>have relatively limited resources for Greenlandic Inuit.
Here are 14 words from a grade-school "activity book" about Nunavut:
aniugaviniq: very hard, compressed and frozen snow
apijaq: snow covered by bad weather
apigiannagaut: the first snowfall of autumn
katakartanaq: snow with a hard crust that gives way under footsteps
kavisilaq: snow roughened by rain or frost
kinirtaq: compact, damp snow
mannguq: melting snow
masak: wet, falling snow
matsaaq: half-melted snow
natiruvaaq: drifting snow
pukak: crystalline snow that breaks down and separates like salt
qannialaaq: light-falling snow
qiasuqaq: snow that has thawed and refrozen with an ice surface
qiqumaaq: snow whose surface has frozen after a light spring thaw
See
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ks/english/pdf/nunavu_e.pdf
This word list seems to be reprinted in various places around the Web.
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
[snip fascinating insight into Northern linguistics]
Thanks a lot.
Archie
Stan Brown
>Ned i bach <MPG.18335ae32...@news.odyssey.net>, Stan Brown
><qx1...@bigfoot.com> teithant i thiw hin:
>> starring William Shatner of all people, and directed by one of the
>> moving forces behind the original /Outer Limits/.)
>
>They also forgot to tell the actors about Esperanto's stress rule (second-
>to-last syllable, always) so the words are accented all over the place,
>wherever the actors thought sounded right. Esperanto speakers who watch it
>invariably break into giggles after the first few minutes of dialogue.
Well, not quite invariably, since I didn't actually giggle. I did
catch some odd stresses (and vowel quantities too).
Floyd Davidson
>>add...@bottom.of.message (Jamie Andrews) wrote:
>>> I've read Pullum's article, and was very offended by the
>>>snide way in which he referred to Benjamin Whorf...
>
>>Whorf was a basic racist....
>
> I wasn't referring to whether he was racist according to
>our modern-day standards, which may well be true (I'm sure you
>have more knowledge on that than I do). I was referring to
>Pullum's asides about his day job, which I consider below the
>belt. Whether we would consider him a fine scholar today or
>not, he was considered as such at the time.
I think Pullum was trying to put into perspective the shoddy
work that Whorf did as a linguist. He was using poor
scholarship to promote the false beliefs of the times. Whorf
may have hit the right chords for the time, but the point is
that he used obviously flawed evidence and faulty logic to
support his hypothesis. In short, I don't think he was
considered a "fine scholar" then, or now.
...
>> Without going into a
>>lot of detail, "Inuit" and "Yupik" are the same word in two
>>cognate languages.
>
> I don't know what "cognate languages" are... I know what
>"cognate words" are, and "related languages", but you'll have to
>explain "cognate languages".
"Cognate" means they have the same ancestor. Prior to 3-4000
years ago there was one culture and one language. Aleut, Inuit,
and Yupik are all descendant from that common language.
Proto-Aleut/Eskimo
|
+--- 3000-4000 years ago ---> Aleut
|
Proto-Eskimo
|
+--- 1500-2000 years ago ---> Inuit
|
Yupik
The Aleut-Eskimo language family has two branches, which appear
to have separated from the proto language perhaps as much as
4000 years ago. The Aleut branch has one language, called Aleut
or Unangam. The Eskimo branch separated again, probably about
1500-2000 years ago. That appears to have happened when the
Inuit branch became isolated, apparently in the area of the
Bering Straits, and evolved to be distinctly different from
Proto-Eskimo (which elsewhere continued to evolve into Yupik,
and some would argue that Yupik evolved to be 5 distinct
languages rather than one language with 5 major dialects).
You might look at the separation of Inuit as a case of one
dialect changing significantly enough to cause that dialect to
be much more distinct from the other dialects than was typical.
(How much change constitutes a new language is open to debate,
but the differences between Yupik and Inuit are significantly
greater than between any of the dialects of either.)
The separation of Inuit as a distinct language preceded, or
perhaps coincided with, another event which brings us to what we
have today. At some time in the next several hundred years, the
the geographi range where the Inuit language is used rather
rapidly expanded from the Bering Straits all the way to
Greenland. This is confused even more by the fact that Thule
Technology was also migrating (and probably was the actual cause of
the language migrating), and that Dorset Technology Eskimo
culture already existed in the same area. It appears that this
was a migration of technology, culture, and language, but _not_
a change in the gene pool! The two different cultures lived
side by side, with alternating villages in some areas, for
hundreds of years. This would be very similar to the mixing of
Yupik and Inupiat villages in the Norton Sound/Bering Straits
area today, where the two groups border each other.
>> They both have the identical meaning, and
>>they both were derived from the Proto-Eskimo word "Inuy".
>>
>>If you ask a Yupik person what language they speak, the answer
>>is Yupik. If you ask an Inuit person the same question, there
>>are numerous answers (Inupiaq, Inuktitut, and Kalaallisut for
>>example), but if you ask them if they speak Inuit the answer
>>will be yes.
>
> OK, I certainly hadn't heard that; I have no reason to
>doubt you; however, I wonder if that is just because non-Inuit
>so commonly use the word "Inuit" wrongly to refer to the
>language.
Absolutely not. Virtually nobody here commonly uses the word
"Inuit", yet any of the elders who have a good grasp of the
language will understand the use of the word "Inuit" to mean any
of language, people or culture!
> AFAIK, the word "inuk" means "person" and the plural
>is "inuit", so it's a noun for a people, not a language.
Yes, and no. Also note that it can be used as an adjective.
Inuk actually means "person, owner" in the sense of the owner
of an original human spirit. Literally, a "genuine person".
Let me point out some easy comparisons. Inupiat is what Inuit
people in Alaska call themselves, rather than Inuit. Inupiat
means "genuine people". Inupiaq is singular, it means one person.
They call their language Inupiaq.
The Yupik people's identical word to Inuit, is "Yupik". They
literally refer to the culture, the language, and to the people,
as "yupik". An individual is a "yuk".
In Eskimo languages they just do not separate the language and
the culture from the people in their terminology, except by
context. (Keep in mind that there are several other words in
common use too! Yupiaq and Yuit, instead of Yupik is one that
matches the Inupiaq/Inupiat variations for Inuit.)
> Aren't
>there words in these dialects (if they are dialects) for "the
>language that all the Inuit speak" (if it is a single language),
>other than just the word "Inuit"? (I don't know, I'm asking,
>though I am suspicious.)
Inupiaq! Or at least that is what people here say. And they
say that from about 500 miles west and south of here to about
400 miles east of here. Farther eastward though, they call it
Inuktitut, the "the way of an Inuk". Yet people from Kaktovik
Alaska and people from Inuvik Canada speak almost identical
dialects!
>>>AFAIK, the only people who use that word in their native
>>>language are the native people of the eastern Arctic of Canada,
>>>and "Inuit" is the word they use to refer to themselves. (Most
>>
>>It is part of the Inuit language, which is spoken in different
>>dialects from the Alaska side of the Bering Straits all the
>>way across Canada to eastern Greenland.
>
> Hmmm... earlier in your article, these were "cognate
>languages", and now they are dialects of the same language...
Aleut, Inuit, and Yupik are cognate languages. Each is also
divided into dialects.
>OK, these things are always shades of grey. (viz. "dialects" of
>Chinese, Norwegian vs. Danish "languages", Languedoc vs. French,
>etc.)
>
>> Not all of those
>>people typically call themselves "Inuit", but they do recognize
>>the word.
>>
>>>people in Canada nowadays use the word "Inuit", rather than
>>>"Eskimo", which was originally a derogatory word in a language
>>>of one of the neighbours of the Inuit.) The Inuit refer to
>>
>>No, they use Inuit because the *are* Inuit (which is not
>>necessarily true in Alaska or Siberia).
>
> Pardon? What I was saying in the sentence you are
>responding to above was that most people in Canada nowadays,
>aboriginal, non-aboriginal, black, white or brown, use the word
>"Inuit" to refer to the native people of the eastern Arctic of
>Canada (because the people they are referring to *are* Inuit).
>That is, most people in Canada including blond lily-white me,
>the announcers for the CBC, the Inuit themselves, etc. The same
>does not seem to be true of the rest of the world.
Everyone can refer to the Eskimo people in Canada as "Inuit",
because all of them are indeed Inuit.
But you can't do that for Siberia. There are no Inuit there.
All of the Eskimos from Siberia are Yupik, hence it is rather
common to refer to them as Yupik.
But, that doesn't work well in Alaska because there are both
Yupik and Inuit people. Hence here the only term which refers
to all Alaskan Eskimos is "Eskimo".
Of course on a world wide basis, the term Eskimo is the only
appropriate term, in English, which includes all Eskimo people.
...
>> <http://linguistlist.org/issues/7/7-300.html>
>>
>>for a short blurb on work done by Canadian anthropologist Jose
>>Mailhot, who speak fluent Cree and did a definitive work which
>>attributes the meaning as "People who speak a different
>>language". Mailhot is from Quebec, publishes in French, and is
>>little known in the US or on the Internet.
>
> Thanks, that's interesting information. I had heard that
>"eskimo" meant "eater of raw meat" in some Athapaskan language,
>but that is probably just some textbook legend.
It was supposed to be from Algonqin (Cree, for example). But
"eater of raw meat" wouldn't exactly distinguish between the
Indians and the Eskimos to begin with, and wouldn't be
considered an insult by anyone other than some, but not all,
Europeans.
It does have a good "ring" to it though, eh? People like the
sound of it... ;-)
>>>their language as Inuktitut, and that word is well-known in
>>>Canada too. Why not with linguists? Unknown.
>>
>>Inuktitut is not the name of the language, thats why! It is the
>>name, in Inuit, of the dialect spoken in Canada. English
>>linguists of course use English words to describe each dialect.
>>Hence there are, for example, Seward Peninsula Inuit and
>>Northern Alaska Inuit (both called Inupiaq by the people who
>>speak it), and Western Canadian Inuit and Eastern Canadian Inuit
>>(both called Inuktitut by speakers).
>
> My point is, if they are separate languages, why not use
But clearly those are not separate languages. Inuit forms a
single continuum all across its range, and indeed the only
place where radical differences are found is at the extremes
of east and west.
(Today I heard a doctor from New York pronounce "cough". Trust
me, the difference between Inupiaq in Barrow and Inuktitut in
Inuvik is no where near the difference between "cough" in the
Bronx and "cough" in Alaska! It was pretty funny too, because I
was with someone who is not a native speaker of English, and I
had to explain what the doctor meant.)
>the words Inupiaq and Inuktitut rather than Inuit? If they are
>dialects of the same language, do they call the language "Inuit"
>because that's really their native name for it, or because
>linguists and others insist on calling it "Inuit"?
Linguists call it Inuit because that is the only word understood
by all speakers of the language to actually refer to the language,
even if it is not the most common terminology used in any single
location.
Here is an interesting comparison between Yupik and Inuit, which
in the process also describes differences between the various
dialects of each language. It has a very nice description of how
Inuit changes from west to east across the Arctic.
<http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/yupik_inuit.html>
Here is a map, which is unfortunately not very good. Actually
the original map is great, but this jpeg image of it is not.
<http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/pubs/images/map2.jpg>
This URL has a map of Native languages in Alaska, plus it has a
graphic showing the derivation of various dialects. You might
be interested in reading the menu items for Inupiaq and for
Central Alaskan Yup'ik.
<http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/languages.html>
--
Floyd Davidson
>Floyd Davidson <fl...@ptialaska.net> wrote:
>> aniu, api-, aput, pukak, qanik, qaniit, qanir
>>That is a list of the few that I could immediately find, and I
>>have relatively limited resources for Greenlandic Inuit.
>
>Here are 14 words from a grade-school "activity book" about Nunavut:
But that would seem to indicate the words are from Canadian
Inuit dialects, rather than from the Greenlandic Inuit dialect.
In a quick search, I couldn't find anything which indicated the
original source of that particular word list, so I'm not really
sure which dialect(s) it includes.
However, it should be noted that most of the words in the list
are not lexemes which would be listed individually in a
dictionary, but instead are _phases_. They are base words with
a variety of suffixes tacked on to change the meaning. Look at
the first three words. The first uses the same base word that
is first in my list, aniu. The next two words use the second
base word in my list, api-.
>aniugaviniq: very hard, compressed and frozen snow
>apijaq: snow covered by bad weather
>apigiannagaut: the first snowfall of autumn
>katakartanaq: snow with a hard crust that gives way under footsteps
>kavisilaq: snow roughened by rain or frost
>kinirtaq: compact, damp snow
>mannguq: melting snow
>masak: wet, falling snow
>matsaaq: half-melted snow
>natiruvaaq: drifting snow
>pukak: crystalline snow that breaks down and separates like salt
>qannialaaq: light-falling snow
>qiasuqaq: snow that has thawed and refrozen with an ice surface
>qiqumaaq: snow whose surface has frozen after a light spring thaw
>See
>
> http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ks/english/pdf/nunavu_e.pdf
>
>This word list seems to be reprinted in various places around the Web.
There are a lot of Eskimo word lists for "snow" running around
the web. Some of them are accurate and provide a specific
source (and most of those are derived from Steve Jacobson's
"Yup'ik Eskimo Dictionary"). Others mix in complex words such
as the above list does, and often they mix in words that are
from different languages or dialects without pointing out that
any person who would know and use half of the words, would not
know or use the other half. The last is actually very common
with the Yup'ik word lists based on Jacobson's work too. Steve
very carefully noted when words or usage are unique to a
specific dialect, but that information is virtually never part
of the word lists derived on the web. (It might also be an
honest mistake too, because the English index lists the words,
but not the dialects; hence to provide that information requires
actually looking up each Yup'ik word.)
coconut
> My point is, if they are separate languages, why not use
> the words Inupiaq and Inuktitut rather than Inuit? If they are
> dialects of the same language, do they call the language "Inuit"
> because that's really their native name for it, or because
> linguists and others insist on calling it "Inuit"? "Basque" is
> a long-standing English word, so it would be fatuous to start
> referring to it as "Euskadi" in English (sorry to our Basque
> speaker if I got that form wrong), but if we are to pick a word
> which is less offensive than "Eskimo", then why "Inuit" to
> describe the language?
that is fair, but Euskadi means "Basque State" or "Basque Nation"
Basque Language is "Euskara"
the softrat
wrote:
>
>I think Pullum was trying to put into perspective the shoddy
> <http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/languages.html>
Very, very interesting, Mr. Davidson. Where did you study? Where do
you work? Are you a professional linguist or anthropologist? It sure
sounds like it. Thank you for casting your pearls before us swine.
Eagerly awaiting the next installment,
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!'
Then there was still nothing. But you could see it.