Papal arms
Mike
Ole Andersen
> I keep seeing this on the news. What does the m stand for?
Maria.
--
Ole Andersen, Copenhagen, Denmark * http://palnatoke.net
"I am following my fish." - Delirium
Mike
"Ole Andersen" <ne...@palnatoke.net> wrote in message
news:qMAta.53729$y3.35...@news010.worldonline.dk...
> Maria.
Maria translated in Hebrew means spouse or something? Can someone refresh
my memory?
Philip Anderson
Maria (Mary, i.e. the Virgin Mary to whom the Pope gives special
devotion) is the Latinisation of Miriam, which means something like
"drop of the ocean". But the Latin translation of this, "stilla maris",
was confused with "stella maris", i.e. "star of the sea", which is said
to be why she is often shown with a blue robe decorated with a star.
--
hwyl/cheers
Philip Anderson
Cymru/Wales
SirSamKGHJ
the "Medici crown." Or am I not remembering correctly?
George Lucki
The Medici were involved in so many things but there were as far as I know
no Medici at the foot of the cross.
Kind regards, George Lucki
"SirSamKGHJ" <sirsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030510013002...@mb-m07.aol.com...
(David)
wrote:
Mike,
Maria is derived (as with Mary) from the Greek forms Miriam and
Mariamne (child of our wishes). It arrived in Britain as Mary from the
Crusaders. Mary (Miriam) in the Bible was the sister of Moses, and
Maria Theresa was Queen of Bohemia and Hungary.
MARIA is the Latin French Italian Spanish form, MARIE the French and
old German, MAIR the Welsh, and the forms Maureen, Moira and Mairin
are Irish.
Regards
David
Don Aitken
It is worth noting that the "Marie" form has entered English from
French on two occasions, the first time as an early variant of Mary
(pronounced Mahree), the second time in the 19th century (pronounced
as in French). The earlier version had become confined to the working
classes (it is a traditional cockney name, Marie Lloyd being an
example), and was so unfamiliar to the upper classes that they did not
realise that there was such a name in English.
--
Don Aitken
Philip Anderson
(David) wrote in message <3ec34603...@news.virgin.net>...
>Maria is derived (as with Mary) from the Greek forms Miriam and
>Mariamne (child of our wishes). It arrived in Britain as Mary from the
>Crusaders. Mary (Miriam) in the Bible was the sister of Moses, and
>Maria Theresa was Queen of Bohemia and Hungary.
I haven't heard that derivation. What are the suggested Hebrew roots?
The _Oxford Dictionary of Name_ says the origin is unknown, but suggests
that the original Hebrew "Miriam" might be Egyptian, as well as her
brothers' names of Moses & Aaron. Later, in the New Testament it is
Mariam while Josephus has a Mariamne; St Jerome interpreted it (Mariam
presumably) as "drop of the sea" (MAR+YAM), which I quoted earlier, but
that doesn't fit too well with Miriam.
Didn't Mary come straight from the French Marie? But anyway, as a given
name it was in Britain before the Crusaders, e.g. Mary, daughter of
Malcom Canmore king of Scotland, who was married in 1102 (First Crusade
1096-9) - admittedly I don't know the exact form at that time.
[sci.lang added]
Brian M. Scott
<pjand...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>(David) wrote in message <3ec34603...@news.virgin.net>...
>>Maria is derived (as with Mary) from the Greek forms Miriam and
>>Mariamne (child of our wishes). It arrived in Britain as Mary from the
>>Crusaders. Mary (Miriam) in the Bible was the sister of Moses, and
>>Maria Theresa was Queen of Bohemia and Hungary.
>I haven't heard that derivation. What are the suggested Hebrew roots?
>The _Oxford Dictionary of Name_ says the origin is unknown, but suggests
>that the original Hebrew "Miriam" might be Egyptian, as well as her
>brothers' names of Moses & Aaron. Later, in the New Testament it is
>Mariam while Josephus has a Mariamne; St Jerome interpreted it (Mariam
>presumably) as "drop of the sea" (MAR+YAM), which I quoted earlier, but
>that doesn't fit too well with Miriam.
>Didn't Mary come straight from the French Marie?
Yes.
>But anyway, as a given
>name it was in Britain before the Crusaders, e.g. Mary, daughter of
>Malcom Canmore king of Scotland, who was married in 1102 (First Crusade
>1096-9) - admittedly I don't know the exact form at that time.
That is the first known example in Britain. It's very hard to
tell what the actual form was, as at that period most names were
recorded in Latin, especially forenames. The earliest clearcut
evidence for the specific form <Mary> that I have on hand at the
moment is a pair of citations in Ekwall's _Early London Personal
Names_: <Willelmus filius Marie> 1292 is the same person who is
in record in 1298 with the byname <Marysone>. However, the
diminutive <Mariot> appears in a metronymic byname in 1185 and,
superficially Latinized to <Mariota>, as a forename in 1195.
Brian
Francois R. Velde
> It is worth noting that the "Marie" form has entered English from
> French on two occasions, the first time as an early variant of Mary
> (pronounced Mahree), the second time in the 19th century (pronounced
> as in French).
If I were to transcribe the French pronunciation (admittedly, into
American English) I would write it Mahree. How would you transcribe it?
> The earlier version had become confined to the working
> classes (it is a traditional cockney name, Marie Lloyd being an
> example), and was so unfamiliar to the upper classes that they did not
> realise that there was such a name in English.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Don Aitken
<ve...@heraldicaNOTSPAM.invalid> wrote:
>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> os suum:
>> It is worth noting that the "Marie" form has entered English from
>> French on two occasions, the first time as an early variant of Mary
>> (pronounced Mahree), the second time in the 19th century (pronounced
>> as in French).
>
>If I were to transcribe the French pronunciation (admittedly, into
>American English) I would write it Mahree. How would you transcribe it?
>
This where I wish I had bothered to learn ASCII IPA (not that that
would help unless you knew it too). The traditional English version
has a strong stress on the first syllable. And perhaps a better
spelling would be MAHry, pronounced as a Engish word. The French
version would be m@rEE, where "@" is a schwa or neutral vowel, and the
"r" is prounounced quite differently from in English.
>> The earlier version had become confined to the working
>> classes (it is a traditional cockney name, Marie Lloyd being an
>> example), and was so unfamiliar to the upper classes that they did not
>> realise that there was such a name in English.
--
Don Aitken
Yusuf B Gursey
: (David) wrote in message <3ec34603...@news.virgin.net>...
:>Maria is derived (as with Mary) from the Greek forms Miriam and
:>Mariamne (child of our wishes). It arrived in Britain as Mary from the
:>Crusaders. Mary (Miriam) in the Bible was the sister of Moses, and
:>Maria Theresa was Queen of Bohemia and Hungary.
: I haven't heard that derivation. What are the suggested Hebrew roots?
: The _Oxford Dictionary of Name_ says the origin is unknown, but suggests
: that the original Hebrew "Miriam" might be Egyptian, as well as her
: brothers' names of Moses & Aaron. Later, in the New Testament it is
: Mariam while Josephus has a Mariamne; St Jerome interpreted it (Mariam
: presumably) as "drop of the sea" (MAR+YAM), which I quoted earlier, but
: that doesn't fit too well with Miriam.
assuming maryam is the earlier form it might have meant "desired". miryam
was interpeted by later jewish scholars as "bitterness of the sea". it
miht also have been egyptian. the etymology is uncertain.
Anton Sherwood
> . . . The French
> version would be m@rEE, where "@" is a schwa or neutral vowel,
> and the "r" is prounounced quite differently from in English.
No schwa there in French.
--
Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
Anton Sherwood
>> It is worth noting that the "Marie" form has entered English
>> from French on two occasions, the first time as an early variant
>> of Mary (pronounced Mahree), the second time in the 19th century
>> (pronounced as in French).
François R. Velde wrote:
> If I were to transcribe the French pronunciation (admittedly,
> into American English) I would write it Mahree. How would you
> transcribe it?
Perhaps he means the older version is trochaic.
Prai Jei
news:3ec52ff7....@enews.newsguy.com...
> >Didn't Mary come straight from the French Marie?
>
> Yes.
I thought it was Mary, Mary, long before the fashions came : )
Francois R. Velde
>On Fri, 16 May 2003 19:39:07 +0000 (UTC), "Francois R. Velde"
><ve...@heraldicaNOTSPAM.invalid> wrote:
>
>>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> os suum:
>>> It is worth noting that the "Marie" form has entered English from
>>> French on two occasions, the first time as an early variant of Mary
>>> (pronounced Mahree), the second time in the 19th century (pronounced
>>> as in French).
>>
>>If I were to transcribe the French pronunciation (admittedly, into
>>American English) I would write it Mahree. How would you transcribe it?
>>
>This where I wish I had bothered to learn ASCII IPA (not that that
>would help unless you knew it too).
And I don't...
>The traditional English version
>has a strong stress on the first syllable. And perhaps a better
>spelling would be MAHry, pronounced as a Engish word. The French
>version would be m@rEE, where "@" is a schwa or neutral vowel, and the
>"r" is prounounced quite differently from in English.
I would disagree on the schwa, and the final stress is rather light; but other
than that, I now understand what you mean. It's not so much a question of
pronunciation as a question of stress.
>>> The earlier version had become confined to the working
>>> classes (it is a traditional cockney name, Marie Lloyd being an
>>> example), and was so unfamiliar to the upper classes that they did not
>>> realise that there was such a name in English.
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Don Bloomfield
Francois R. Velde wrote:
The traditional English version has a strong stress on the first syllable. And perhaps a better spelling would be MAHry, pronounced as a Engish word. The French version would be m@rEE, where "@" is a schwa or neutral vowel, and the "r" is prounounced quite differently from in English.I would disagree on the schwa, and the final stress is rather light; but other than that, I now understand what you mean. It's not so much a question of pronunciation as a question of stress.
Don Bloomfield