Messianic Jewish Seperatism

[2101...@msu.edu]

Dan, I understand and agree with your point that seperatism isn't critical
from a theological standpoint. In clarification, I would say that it is
quite an important issue for me personally, and perhaps for other Jewish
believers who are trying to maintain a Jewish lifestyle in Messiah.

If Jewish believers who do not feel they are called to a messianic congregation
(or perhaps would like to be part of one but for whatever reason do not
feel comfortable with the limited or even sole choice they may have in
their city) are considered by the largest visible contingent of Messianic
Jews to be acting in a "sub-messianic" or even unbiblical way, then it
will significantly impair their ability to walk as Jews, and ultimately
their witness as well. After all, its tough to maintain friendly fellowship
when you know you're considered to be "second class."

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block for me in trying to walk as a Messianic
Jew and not to be assimilated has been the number of people in messianic
congregations (often Gentiles!) telling me that I'm not "Jewish" enough.
I could go into detail, but I'm not sure it would be profitable, and I think
a lot of MJs here know what I'm talking about. Praise God, from my private
e-mail I know that there are many of us out there who do understand that
God does not call us all to the same work. The great majority of MJs are
not in a messianic congregation, for many reasons: family considerations,
a calling to minister elsewhere, a non-religious Jewish upbringing,
geography/travel, need for a ministry to singles/divorced/young parents/
dysfunctional situations, etc. If the messianic movement can learn to
welcome occasional participation by them and not feel threatened by their
less than total participation, then they will be greatly blessed, will bless
many, and will in the long run (I think) grow even faster.

I wish nothing but good to the messianic movement, and indeed would like to
be in a messianic congregation if God opens the door that way. However, I think
the current seperatist trend is the wrong direction to take.

Joe Scully

[Dan Wiebe]

In article <16F3ABB8C...@msu.edu> 2101...@msu.edu writes:
>I wish nothing but good to the messianic movement, and indeed would like to
>be in a messianic congregation if God opens the door that way. However, I think
>the current seperatist trend is the wrong direction to take.

You'll get no argument from me.

Shalom,
Dan

[Harvey Smith]

To: Joe Scully
2> reason do not feel comfortable with
2> the limited or even sole choice they
2> may have in their city) are
2> considered by the largest visible
2> contingent of Messianic Jews to be
2> acting in a "sub-messianic" or even
2> unbiblical way,

I really don't agree with you. I don't see us MJ's as separatists at all, most
of us have very good fellowship with non Jewish groups and congregations. I
will also admit that we are zealous to see Jewish believers live to the fullest
of their faith and practice. As the New Covenant states; "are you saved a Jew
seek not to become a non Jew". Something like that.

We have many believing Jews who come on special holidays to our Shul, but do
not wish to come all the time. However, the danger of assimilation is strong.

I think what probably makes you feel the way you do, is that Mj's do not
readily recognize all Jewish believers as MJ's but those who keep Torah, and
the Biblical Jewish holidays, and a form of Kashrut, and observe the Sabbath.
Otherwise what you have is a Jewish believer who is assimilating, while MJ's
are fighting assimilation. However a Jewish believer who attends a church, but
observes the Sabbath, circumcizes his children, and observes Biblical Holidays,
Torah, etc would stll be considered a MJ whether or not He or She attended
regularly a Messianic Shul.

In over 30 years of ministry, i have found that those who attend Churches
ususally lose their identity within a generation....

Shalom In Yeshua...

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[James Trimm]

Recently Joe Sculy (sp?) [2101...@IBM.CL.MSU.EDU] complained
about what he called Messianic Jewish "Seperatism" which he
seemed to object to. Now since some form of "seperation" is
called for from believers (2Cor. 6:17) I thought I should
speak out on this issue.
Now the key to understanding the biblical doctrine of "seperation"
lies in understanding 2Cor. 6:17. Fortunately there are several points
which make this passage easy to understand:

1) The passage is part of a Semitic poem written with parallelism which
begins in 6:2 and runs thru the rest of the chapter. Thus the parallel
passages of the poem can be understood better by reading their parallel
lines.

2) Several of the verses (most noteably 6:17 itself) quote or
paraphrase
Tenach passages, thus we may find their original Tenach context to
sharpen our understanding.

3) The verse in question (2Cor 6:17) has a NT parallel as well (Rev.
18:4)

Now beginning in 2Cor. 6:14 we have a DROSH (allegorical)
exposition
on a Torah passage (Dt. 22:10) which understands Dt. 22:10 on an
allegorical level in light of other Tenach passages (most noteably Is.
52:11 in 2Cor. 6:17). In 2Cor 6:15 it is clear that being "seperate"
in
v. 17 means that believers and non believers should not be "yoked
together", that is work together in unity for a common cause, (the
context is of course religion).
Now 2Cor. 6:17 quotes Is. 52:11 and makes strong referance to Zech
2:7 (2:11 in Jewish versions) and Jer 50:8; 51:6, 9, 45. In these
passages it is Babylon which we are being called to be "seperate" from.
This understanding is made even more clear in Rev. 18:4 which also
quotes
Is. 52:11, in this passage it is clearly "the Great Whore of Babylon"
(Rev. 17) which we are called out of.
Now that we understand 2Cor. 6:17 we are faced with aplication.
While there are a number of valid aplications, there are two which are
immediately relevant to the question of "seperatism" at hand.
The first of these is seperation from non believers, and religious
organizations which might religiously yoke us with nonbelievers. This
means seperation from every humanly devised sect or denomination, since
these humanly created organizations have some members who are
nonbelievers. Believers involved with these organizations will find
themselves yoked to unbelievers, that is working together with
nonbelievers within the same religious organization for a common cause.
The second relevant aplication is seperation from the Great Whore
Babylon. Now it is well known that on a DROSH (allegorical) level of
understanding, "Christendom" is this Great Whore. This has been
thouroghly documented in the book THE TWO BABYLONS by Alexander Hislop.
Thus we are to be seperated from Pagan influenced Gentile Christendom.
Thus being "seperate" (2Cor. 6:17) includes being seperate from
denominational, sectarian Christendom, as well as Pagan influenced
Christendom. In short, being "seperate" from Christendom.

For more info call or write:
Nazarene Judaism; PO Box 471; Hurst, TX 76053
(817) 284-7039

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