William Fiennes, "Sire de Fiennes et de Tingry"
D. Spencer Hines
1. Does anyone have the ancestry of William Fiennes, "Sire de Fiennes et de
Tingry" --- who reportedly married Blanche de Brienne?
2. Was this William Fiennes, supra, related to Sir William Fiennes [died
1359] --- who reportedly married Joan de Say?
D. Spencer Hines
--
"Well, that's what I mean. You know, if all the people who are named
...deny it....That's all, I mean, I expect them to come looking into it and
interview you and everything, uh, but I just think that if everybody's on
record denying it you've got no problem.....I wonder if I'm going to be
blown out of the water with this. I don't see how they can...if they don't,
if they don't have pictures."
Governor Bill Clinton --- Telephonic Advice to Gennifer Flowers [1991]
Leo van de Pas
At 06:14 PM 2/2/98 -1000, you wrote:
>1. Does anyone have the ancestry of William Fiennes, "Sire de Fiennes et de
>Tingry" --- who reportedly married Blanche de Brienne?
>
>2. Was this William Fiennes, supra, related to Sir William Fiennes [died
>1359] --- who reportedly married Joan de Say?
>
>D. Spencer Hines
Dear Spencer,
Question 2:
Enguerrand de Fiennes, Seigneur de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
had amongst others, two sons, the younger is William (Guillaume II)
de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover, who died in 1302 and married (not
in this order) Blanche de Brienne.
The other son is Sir Giles de Fiennes (died 1293) and his son
is John de Fienes(1331) (I seem to have spellings with one n and 2 ns
in the middle)
John who died in 1331, is the father of Sir John de Fiennes (died 1351)
and he is the father of William de Fiennes (died 1359) spouse of
Joan de Say.
Question 1 :
1.William (Guillaume II) de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
died 11 July 1302
2.Enguerrand de Fiennes, Seigneur de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
married
3.NN de Conde (with accent on e)
4.Guillaume I de Fienes, died 1240
5.Agnes de Dammartin
6.Jacques de Conde, Seigneur de Conde, Bailleul & Moriammez
7.NN
8,Ingelram I de Fienes, died circa 1207
9.Sibyl de Tingrie, died after 1217
10.Alberic II, Comte de Dammartin, died 20 September 1200
11.Mahaut (Mabilie) de Clermont, died after October 1200
12.NN
13.NN
14.NN
15.NN
16.Eustace II de Fienes
17.Anne de Dreux
18.Pharamuse de Boulogne
19.
20.Alberic I, Comte de Dammartin-en-Goele, died after 1181
21.Clemence de Dammartin
22.Renaud, Comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis, died before 1162
23.Clemence de Bar, died after 20 January 1183
24.
25.
32.Conan de Fienes
33. Alice de Bournonville
44.Hugues de Clermont dit de Mouchy, Seigneur de Creil
45.Marguerite de Montdidier
46.Reinald I, Comte de Bar-le-Duc et Mousson
born circa 1090, died 10 March 1149
married circa 1120
47.Gisela de Vaudemont, died 1141
64.Eustache I de Fienes
65.Adele de Furnes
66.Louis de Bournonville
67.Silvie
90.Hildouin IV de Montdidier, Comte de Roucy, died 1063
married circa 1031
91.Adele (Alice) de Roucy, born circa 1014 Roucy, Aisne, died 1063
92.Thierry I, Comte de Bar-le-Duc, died 2 January 1105
married circa 1065
93.Ermentrude de Bourgogne, died 8 March 1105
94.Gerhard, Comte de Vaudemont, died before 1118
95.Helwide von Dagsburg, died before 1126
Sources:
Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europaischen Staaten,
by W.K. Prinz von Isenburg
The Complete Peerage,
by H.A. Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden
The Plantagenet Ancestry,
by Lt.Col W.H. Turton
The Lineage and Ancestry of
HRH Prince Charles, Prince of Wales
by Gerald Paget
An Account of the families of Lennard and Barrett,
1908, by Thomas Barrett-Lennard
Europaischen Stammtafeln, by Schwennicke.
Hope this helps.
Leo van de Pas
geoffre...@ukonline.co.uk
Are we talking of Wm Fiennes married to Joan de Say died 1359,
whose son Wm died 1403 & married to Elizabeth Batisford, then Roger
Fiennes ancestor of Lord Dacre of the South,built Hurstmoncoux
Castle died 1447- on to James Fiennes,Agincourt 1415.1st Lord
Saye & Sele,Constable of Dover,Treasurer of England killed by Jack
Cade's mob in London--leading up toiday to the 21st Lord Saye &
Sele, Nathaniel born 1920 and residing in Broughton Castle, Oxon.
Geoffrey.
D. Spencer Hines
Yes, that's the one.
Interesting family, isn't it?
Saybrook colony in Connecticut was one of their works as well.
D. Spencer Hines
--
"Well, that's what I mean. You know, if all the people who are named
...deny it....That's all, I mean, I expect them to come looking into it and
interview you and everything, uh, but I just think that if everybody's on
record denying it you've got no problem.....I wonder if I'm going to be
blown out of the water with this. I don't see how they can...if they don't,
if they don't have pictures."
Governor Bill Clinton --- Telephonic Advice to Gennifer Flowers [1991]
geoffre...@ukonline.co.uk wrote in message
<6b7feh$hob$1...@morse.news.easynet.net>...
Todd A. Farmerie
leov...@iinet.net.au (Leo van de Pas) wrote:
> Enguerrand de Fiennes, Seigneur de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
> had amongst others, two sons, the younger is William (Guillaume II)
> de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover, who died in 1302 and married (not
> in this order) Blanche de Brienne.
> The other son is Sir Giles de Fiennes (died 1293) and his son
> is John de Fienes(1331) (I seem to have spellings with one n and 2 ns
> in the middle)
> John who died in 1331, is the father of Sir John de Fiennes (died 1351)
> and he is the father of William de Fiennes (died 1359) spouse of
> Joan de Say.
I hesitate to mention this, but the English actor of recent notoriety
shares this lineage.
> Question 1 :
>
> 1.William (Guillaume II) de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
> died 11 July 1302
>
> 2.Enguerrand de Fiennes, Seigneur de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
> married
> 3.NN de Conde (with accent on e)
>
> 4.Guillaume I de Fienes, died 1240
> 5.Agnes de Dammartin
This has been questioned on chronological grounds. From his age,
Enguerrand would appear to have been son of William I by an earlier
wife. (This amendment of the pedigree flies in the face of the
favoritism shown the family by Eleanor of Castile, which had been
attributed to their relationship through the Dammartins.)
>
> 8,Ingelram I de Fienes, died circa 1207
> 9.Sibyl de Tingrie, died after 1217
>
> 10.Alberic II, Comte de Dammartin, died 20 September 1200
> 11.Mahaut (Mabilie) de Clermont, died after October 1200
>
>
> 18.Pharamuse de Boulogne
He is descended from the first Crusader ruler of Jerusalem.
> 20.Alberic I, Comte de Dammartin-en-Goele, died after 1181
> 21.Clemence de Dammartin
>
> 22.Renaud, Comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis, died before 1162
> 23.Clemence de Bar, died after 20 January 1183
Here we have a problem with the Dammartins. Clemence de Dammartin IS
Clemence de Bar, and could not be both mother and mother-in-law of
Alberic II. Clemence inherited her title as widow of Lancelin, the last
of the senior male line of Dammartin, descended from Manasses, a scion
of the Ramerupt Hilduins. She later married Renaud de Clermont, but
there is no evidence of a connection with Alberic I. There are two
conflicting reconstructions of the Dammartin pedigree at this point.
The one which I thought had been accepted had Alberic I son of Alberic
de Mello by the aunt of the last of the senior line. However, a recent
article on the family recapitulates a descent suggested (more
speculated) by Evans in the 40s, through an English branch of the
family, with Alberic son of a Eudes, and on in the male line to
Manasses. It is not clear if this is done in preference to, or in
ignorance of the Mello descent (Evans later set aside the English
descent in favor of the Mello one). As to the mother of Alberic II,
Stuart shows her as a late English wife of Alberic I (a Jane Basset) but
this is not possible for chronological reasons. There are (as far as I
know) no other suggestions.
I posted a summary of the Mello version in February, (with an addition
by Stewart Baldwin providing the source which first presented this
Mello) under the thread name "Dammartin / Basset marriage".
taf
Steve Szudzik
I have a William De Fiennes (b. abt 1160 - d. 1240) who married Agnes De
Dammartin (no other marriages listed.) His parents were Ingelram De Fiennes
(b. 1134 - d. 1189) & Sybilla De Bolougne Tingrie (b. abt 1132 - d. ?). I
only mention him because of his mothers surname. Also, from the information
I have, their child was Enguerrand De Fiennes m. Isabel Conde. Their
daughter, Maud De Fiennes married Humphrey De Bohun VII, whose son Humphrey
VIII married Elizabeth, daughter of Edward Longshanks.
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message <6b65m0$p...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>1. Does anyone have the ancestry of William Fiennes, "Sire de Fiennes et
de
>Tingry" --- who reportedly married Blanche de Brienne?
>
>2. Was this William Fiennes, supra, related to Sir William Fiennes [died
>1359] --- who reportedly married Joan de Say?
>
William Addams Reitwiesner
geoffre...@ukonline.co.uk wrote:
>Are we talking of Wm Fiennes married to Joan de Say died 1359,
>whose son Wm died 1403 & married to Elizabeth Batisford, then Roger
>Fiennes ancestor of Lord Dacre of the South,built Hurstmoncoux
>Castle died 1447- on to James Fiennes,Agincourt 1415.1st Lord
>Saye & Sele,Constable of Dover,Treasurer of England killed by Jack
>Cade's mob in London--leading up toiday to the 21st Lord Saye &
>Sele, Nathaniel born 1920 and residing in Broughton Castle, Oxon.
Not quite. The patrilineal descendants of the 15th-century Fiennes (Wm,
Roger, James, etc.) died out in 1781 (see the second edition of Cokayne's
*Complete Peerage*, vol. XI, p. 491, note e). The Saye and Sele barony was
then successfully claimed by a cousin named Thomas Twisleton who descended
from the historic Fiennes family through several female links. Thomas's
grandson changed the surname to Twisleton-Wykeham-Fiennes, and from him
descends the Nathaniel mentioned above, who bears the same title and
surname as the historic Fiennes family but is patrilineally a Twisleton.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
D. Spencer Hines
1. Thank you to all who have responded in this thread.
2. Steve Szudzik seems to be the only person to have N. de Conde as
"Isabel." Can we validate her first name? Also, can she be linked to the
Bourbon-Conde Family? Perhaps we have a death date for N. de Conde from ES?
3. Steve has Guillaume I de Fiennes as born in 1160. Can anyone validate
that from ES, or another first-tier source? Does ES also provide Agnes de
Dammartin's dates --- if she is the Mother of Enguerrand II de Fiennes?
4. We have a death date for Guillaume II de Fiennes of 11 Jul 1302 [from
ES?]. Do we have a birth date?
5. Blanche de Brienne was reportedly the wife [first or second?] wife of
Guillaume II de Fiennes. Does anyone have her birth and death dates from a
first-tier source.
D. Spencer Hines
--
"Well, that's what I mean. You know, if all the people who are named
...deny it....That's all, I mean, I expect them to come looking into it and
interview you and everything, uh, but I just think that if everybody's on
record denying it you've got no problem.....I wonder if I'm going to be
blown out of the water with this. I don't see how they can...if they don't,
if they don't have pictures."
Governor Bill Clinton --- Telephonic Advice to Gennifer Flowers [1991]
Steve Szudzik wrote in message <6b7lru$f...@news.microsoft.com>...
>I have a William De Fiennes (b. abt 1160 - d. 1240) who married Agnes De
>Dammartin (no other marriages listed.) His parents were Ingelram De Fiennes
>(b. 1134 - d. 1189) & Sybilla De Bolougne Tingrie (b. abt 1132 - d. ?).
Steve, do these dates for these folks come from ES? They seem to differ
from other sources.
DSH