Imagine
Adrienne J. Davis
<Backgrounder--this was originally posted the Fall of 1996 in response
to the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival thread that raged here from
February 1996 until about October 1996. This is just the experience
of one woman. Another transwoman would tell her story differently and
a transman has a different story entirely to tell. I hope this
touches everyone who reads it. Aj>
IMAGINE
When you're done reading , close your eyes, center yourself in your
body and *feel* this:
You're at odds with your body. Something doesn't fit. Sex, when you
have it, is awkward and difficult. You want what you want but what
you want is not possible. What you want is to feel the sweet
penetration of your lovers fingers into you. Her insistent grasping
and movement inside your body. You want her tongue centered upon one
small part, flicking up and down. Yet your physiology prevents this.
What you can do you don't want. What you want you can't have. So you
work out the best you can and become *very* good at pleasuring others
and enjoying that feeling.
You're in the shower. You look down at your body, wet and glistening
with soap. Your breasts hang there but below, protruding from your
body is a strange aberration, something that says 'not womon'.
You're buying clothes, you look at that dress, that skirt, those bike
shorts. You know that you cannot wear them because of the 'unsightly
bulge'.
You're a womon. You live as a womon. You love as a womon. Yet your
body is in-between. Neither fully male nor fully female.
You see a infant, something in the back of you cries out at the
absolute unfairness of it all. Not that you would necessarily have a
child if you had the choice but that you will *never* have the choice.
There is no option.
You're out with friends, co-workers, they're going to a bath-house to
unwind from a long work-week. They invite you. You have to decline
because you *can't* go. You just can't. So you make up an excuse
about having to be up early tomorrow and go home and soak in your own
tub alone.
Someone asks you out on a date. You sit across from the table eating
your meal, listening to her talk, connecting in the ways that womyn
connect and all the time you're asking yourself--'when do I tell
her?'. You leave the restaurant and get in her car, you look at her
and say 'before anything happens we have to have a talk' . . . your
stomach tightens, your lips and mouth become like the desert. You
want to run, to hide, to be anyplace but here, in this car, having to
have this talk. But you tell her and wait seconds that last ten
lifetimes for her reaction. If she says 'I'm still interested' that's
not the end becauseyou still have to work out what sex will look like
because of your body. Or if she says 'no, sorry I'm not interested'
you get to go home and deal with unavoidable pain and anguish that it
was your *body* that has created this. And even *if* you get surger
and it's all over that talk never goes away. It gets delayed, no
longer having to occur
half-way through the first date. Maybe extended to the third or
fourthdate. but inevitably you *will* have that talk and it *never*
getseasy---easier, you develop tools and ways of telling the story but
it's never easy.
You take a risk and tell someone you think you can trust. The next
time you see them with friends and they are out *for* you. They say
'so and so used to be a guy'.
You lie awake at night, going over your finances. You wonder how much
below your salary you can live and afford surgery. You wonder how long
you can work two jobs to get there. Your life becomes an endurance
test. If you ever get the money the question still remains how do you
get the time off from work without outting yourself.
-----------------------------
That's life as a TS. It's not all painful. Some of my transition was
downright comedic and life is better than I ever imagined it could be.
But when it is painful (and it is quite often) that pain is
excruciating, pervasive and looms like a giant storm always
threateningto drench whatever beautiful landscape you've tended
within. This is *my* experience I cannot speak for anyone else.
What has happened is that I've come to peace with my body.
I have learned what it means to live with courage, to have faith and
I've seen myself as stronger than I could have imagined five years ago
when it was my first winter on the journey. I've managed to move from
hating this, to accepting it, to loving myself because I did what
seemed impossible.
But I know I'll never have a monthly moon. I know that
there is this gaping space where a womb *should* be. Somethings in
life are not pretty, right or fair but they *are*.
I post this not to engender sympathy but empathy. What my life-path
has been may only make sense if you've been here. But I believe, in
my heart, that I've done what any other womon in this circumstance
would do.
There are *people* behind our theories of gender. Ordinary people,
just like us---they *are* us---and like us they are doing the best
they can to live their lives and get through each day.
Adrienne
Adrienne J. Davis---caramel colored, dredloked, power-femme
ICQ# 4252793
*********************************************
We who love this way are poetry and history, action and theory
flesh and spirit. <Joan Nestle>
--
Soc.women.lesbian-and-bi is a moderated newsgroup. The moderation policy
is available at <http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~wjfraser/swlab/modpolicy.html>
and is posted weekly. Questions and concerns should be addressed to the
moderators at <swlab-...@panix.com>.
The Breyers Traitor
id...@pacbell.net (Adrienne J. Davis), in article <1.?^l~r2...@panix.com>, dixit:
>But I know I'll never have a monthly moon. I know that
>there is this gaping space where a womb *should* be. Somethings in
>life are not pretty, right or fair but they *are*.
Welcome to womanhood, eh. (I'm suddenly flashing on A's story [over
on alt.polyamory, I think] about endometrial tissue growing in her
sinuses.) Have you had much chance to talk with other women with
reproductive problems?
--
____
Piglet \bi/ "The faded grain of super-8 makes everything
pig...@piglet.org \/ look really great." -- Jill Sobule
Cora Louise Schmid
In article <1.*m5?r2...@panix.com>,
Elizabeth Mills <eam...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
>
>: But I know I'll never have a monthly moon.
>hey, i'd be happy about not having my period, personally. :)
>
>-Beth
I have to agree with Beth, here. :)
: there is this gaping space where a womb *should* be. Somethings in
>: life are not pretty, right or fair but they *are*.
I'm sure my body "should" have less muscle, longer legs, smaller
bones, less hair, etc. etc. I agree with whoever it was who mentioned
earlier that there are lots of women who are infertile for various
reasons. I can see why infertility could be an issue for someone. Its
just that I've been working so hard recently to accept my body for what it
is instead of my dream femmey-model-type body, I really really hope that
as long as our bodies do what we need them to do (including allowing us
to express our gender) we don't get too down by comparing our bodies to
others and feeling that we "should" be different from the way we are.
cora
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
co...@leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~cora/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrienne J. Davis
On 11 Nov 1997 00:10:00 -0500, eam...@ucdavis.edu (Elizabeth Mills)
wrote:
>Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
>
>: But I know I'll never have a monthly moon. I know that
>: there is this gaping space where a womb *should* be. Somethings in
>: life are not pretty, right or fair but they *are*.
>
>hey, i'd be happy about not having my period, personally. :)
Beth;
That's because you've *had* one. You know how inconvenient, messy,
painful they can be from first hand experience. What *I* know is that
you have a choice I don't get--ever. You get to choose whether or not
you want to have kids. Whether you exercise that choice it's *still*
a choice. Whether you want that choice it's *still* a choice. Spirit
chose for me.
Piglet;
>Welcome to womanhood, eh. (I'm suddenly flashing on A's story [over
>on alt.polyamory, I think] about endometrial tissue growing in her
>sinuses.) Have you had much chance to talk with other women with
>reproductive problems?
Yeah. It's kind of strange how the *details* can be so different but
when we get together and share our stories there's so much
commonality. I comfort myself with the knowledge that there are a
number of reasons I could not have kids. It's just part of the
territory. Like I said, there are things in life that are neither
right, pretty or fair but they exist so you might as well just *deal*.
Elizabeth Mills
Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
: That's because you've *had* one. You know how inconvenient, messy,
: painful they can be from first hand experience. What *I* know is that
: you have a choice I don't get--ever. You get to choose whether or not
: you want to have kids. Whether you exercise that choice it's *still*
: a choice. Whether you want that choice it's *still* a choice. Spirit
: chose for me.
well, tell ya what, you can have mine and i'll go on w/ life happier. = b
-Beth
DoD#4508, AMA#542204, NGG resident engine breaker
*****************************************************************************
check it out: http://home.cwnet.com/beffie
http://www.ziplink.net/~holm/ngg/ngg.html
Dark Phoenix
In article <1.*m5?r2...@panix.com>, eam...@ucdavis.edu (Elizabeth Mills) wrote:
>Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
>
>: there is this gaping space where a womb *should* be. Somethings in
>: life are not pretty, right or fair but they *are*.
>
>
How poignantly ironic life can be.
I *hate* getting my period -- it completely destroys my sense of masculinity
every month. I *hate* going to the gynecologist, lying on my back with my legs
spread, completely open and vulnerable. If I had my druthers, I'd be tall and
strong and lean and sinewy and hard, not short and curvy and plump and soft. I
know that there's no way I could ever give birth to a child -- in my head, my
body just doesn't *do* that, even though I know that in reality it does. (I
was pregnant once, for about eight weeks, I couldn't think of the growing
fetus as anything but a parasitic alien being that I had to get out of my body
at all costs. I'm thankful that I could get a safe, legal abortion -- I fear
to think what I may have had to do to myself if I couldn't.)
If it weren't for the fact that doing so would be invasive and expensive and a
lot of pain and hardship, I'd probably get a hysterectomy so I'd never have to
worry about periods again. But I don't like the idea of unnecessary surgery,
so every month I get my Keeper ready and pop my Midol and hope it will go away
soon. (I've managed to shorten my periods as I've gotten older -- now they
only last 4 days instead of 6, so at least that's a small blessing.)
I feel for you, Adrienne, although in the opposite way, I suppose. If I could
give it all away to you, I'd do so in a second.
-- Ali.
The Breyers Traitor
id...@pacbell.net (Adrienne J. Davis), in article <1.{qi?r2...@panix.com>, dixit:
>Piglet;
>>Welcome to womanhood, eh. (I'm suddenly flashing on A's story [over
>>on alt.polyamory, I think] about endometrial tissue growing in her
>>sinuses.) Have you had much chance to talk with other women with
>>reproductive problems?
>Yeah. It's kind of strange how the *details* can be so different but
>when we get together and share our stories there's so much
>commonality. I comfort myself with the knowledge that there are a
>number of reasons I could not have kids. It's just part of the
>territory.
Yes, it sounded like you had a lot in common with a couple three of my
friends. I can empathize with them, but there's quite clearly a level
on which I just don't get it. I don't have any questions about my
fertility (status unknown, but no problems expected) at the moment,
but I can't say that they wouldn't arise if I did have a problem. On
the other hand, I have no idea what they'd be, what form my misgivings
[not the right word, but I'm stuck for a better] would take.
--
____
Piglet \bi/ "The faded grain of super-8 makes everything
pig...@piglet.org \/ look really great." -- Jill Sobule
--
The Breyers Traitor
pig...@panix.com (The Breyers Traitor), in article <1.r8w?r2a=2...@panix.com>, dixit:
>Yes, it sounded like you had a lot in common with a couple three of my
>friends.
Grrr. ^"sounds like you have"
--
____
Piglet \bi/ "The faded grain of super-8 makes everything
pig...@piglet.org \/ look really great." -- Jill Sobule
--
Elizabeth Mills
Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
: But I know I'll never have a monthly moon. I know that
: there is this gaping space where a womb *should* be. Somethings in
: life are not pretty, right or fair but they *are*.
hey, i'd be happy about not having my period, personally. :)
-Beth
DoD#4508, AMA#542204, NGG resident engine breaker
*****************************************************************************
check it out: http://home.cwnet.com/beffie
http://www.ziplink.net/~holm/ngg/ngg.html
--
mAdhaTteR
MIDOL PMS is gift from heaven!
makes me x-tra nice during pms..hehehehe
Dark Phoenix (a...@panix.com) wrote:
: so every month I get my Keeper ready and pop my Midol and hope it will go away
Elizabeth Mills
The Breyers Traitor wrote:
: Beth's little specialty.
yes, it is, my fine swine. = b
-Beth
DoD#4508, AMA#542204, NGG resident engine breaker
*****************************************************************************
check it out: http://home.cwnet.com/beffie
http://www.ziplink.net/~holm/ngg/ngg.html
--
The Breyers Traitor
scifi...@aol.com (SciFiMoira), in article <1.bg8/r2&2...@panix.com>, dixit:
>On Tue, Nov 11, 1997 11:33 EST eam...@ucdavis.edu
>(Elizabeth Mills) left me speechless with this:
>>Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
>>: That's because you've *had* one. You know how
>>:inconvenient, messy, painful they can be from first hand
>>:experience. What *I* know is that you have a choice I don't
>>:get--ever.
>>well, tell ya what, you can have mine and i'll go on w/ life happier. = b
>It may just be silly little me, and I'm sure some of you will think
>I'm over-reacting, but this seems horribly insensitive and completely
> thoughtless to me.
Beth's little specialty.
--
____
Piglet \bi/ "The faded grain of super-8 makes everything
pig...@piglet.org \/ look really great." -- Jill Sobule
--
Cora Louise Schmid
In article <1.6td/r2{7...@panix.com>,
Elizabeth Mills <eam...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>SciFiMoira wrote:
>: It may just be silly little me, and I'm sure some of you will think
>: deeply personal and painful and the best we have to offer her is bitching and
>: moaning?
>
>yes, i do. but, that's okay.
>
>
>-Beth
I guess I owe an apology to anyone who did find this insensitive, as I
quickly jumped on the "periods suck" bandwagon. My interpretation of what
was going on was that we were all deeply moved by Ms. Davis's account of
her feelings of hurt and anger and loss and all the things that she so
eloquently described over her infertility, that while sympathizing very
deeply about the loss, we were half lightening the thread by joking about
the unpleasent details she had by-passed. Regardless of whether I'll ever
have children, I do appreciate the choice- however if there was anyway to
keep this choice without having periods, I would be overjoyed. And to me
this is not trivial bitching and moaning. I was finally convinced that
PMS was not fiction at age 14 when I suddenly pieced together why I so
desperately wanted to kill myself exactly once a month. Or the number of
times I've sat there stairing at all the blood that's come from my body
thinking "wow. men never have to go through this." Someone could argue
that having to learn how to deal with menstruation has made me a stronger,
more self-aware person and I have no right to say others shouldn't want
the same experience. However, while my heart aches for those who have
been denied the decision on their reproductive lives, I would certainly
hope that anyone who has this miserable hardship is not burdened with
periods as well.
But I do recognize that Ms. Davis and others may feel otherwise, and I am
very sorry if my earlier e-mail made light of anyone's pain.
cora
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
co...@leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~cora/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Elizabeth Mills
look, i was not trying to discount adriene's feelings and experiences
about wanting to be a whole woman in my jesting. i just see it from
another side, from the side of someone who has TERRIBLE periods. we're
talking mood swings, severe cramps...the whole nine-yards. it's not fun
but i deal with serious amounts of ibuprofen and a few tranquilizers.
if you're never had a period first-hand, then you don't know. same goes
for anyone who hasn't been a MtoF transexual before, obviously. :) i
wouldn't have the first clue about how tough that it.
-Beth
DoD#4508, AMA#542204, NGG resident engine breaker
*****************************************************************************
check it out: http://home.cwnet.com/beffie
http://www.ziplink.net/~holm/ngg/ngg.html
--
Elizabeth Mills
Michelle Steiner wrote:
: In article <1.b_j/r2r|8...@panix.com>, eam...@ucdavis.edu (Elizabeth Mills) wrote:
: >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... really?
:
: Yup. Really.
:
: >wow, you got me there. i feel..so...ignorant. thanks for cluing me in.
:
: You're more than welcome. Glad that I was of help.
:
: >now, i'd like you to go look up a word for me in the dictionary: SARCASM.
: >report to me in a week.
:
: No need to.
you get an A. = b
-Beth
DoD#4508, AMA#542204, NGG resident engine breaker
*****************************************************************************
check it out: http://home.cwnet.com/beffie
http://www.ziplink.net/~holm/ngg/ngg.html
--
Roving Reporter
Maybe if this didn't clarify things, then the following might:
(And I hope the trans won't get mad for me trying!)
Not having a period is more than just not having PMS; if you want to be
a "real" woman, it's somewhat equivalent to not getting asked to the prom,
regardless of whether or not you want to go. Or like not getting asked to
do something that is considered an honor, even though it's one you would
gladly turn down. Or not having a choice of dates to go out with. Just as
it hurts to be ignored by others, it also hurts not to have something as
basic to the identity of being a woman as having periods. I mean, think
about it, isn't that like the very physicality of what separates men from
women? -- It represents the ability to carry life, and to give birth to it.
You may never take advantage of that ability, but it's given to you as a
women nonetheless, and I know that if I didn't have it, I'd feel a bit
weird about myself, never mind that I don't want any children.
On 12 Nov 1997, SciFiMoira wrote:
>On Tue, Nov 11, 1997 11:33 EST eam...@ucdavis.edu
>(Elizabeth Mills) left me speechless with this:
>
>>Adrienne J. Davis wrote:
>>
>>: That's because you've *had* one. You know how
>>:inconvenient, messy, painful they can be from first hand
>>:experience. What *I* know is that you have a choice I don't
>>:get--ever. You get to choose whether or not
>>: you want to have kids. Whether you exercise that choice it's
>>:*still* a choice. Whether you want that choice it's *still* a
>>:choice. Spirit chose for me.
>>
>>well, tell ya what, you can have mine and i'll go on w/ life happier. = b
>>
>>-Beth
>
>It may just be silly little me, and I'm sure some of you will think
>I'm over-reacting, but this seems horribly insensitive and completely
> thoughtless to me. Ms. Davis puts herself on the line to bring us something
> deeply personal and painful and the best we have to offer her is bitching and
> moaning?
>
>I realize that my experience as a woman who has had many
>reproductive problems is nowhere near the same as Ms. Davis',
>but I believe it helps me to identify with her situation as much
>as I possibly can. You don't know how painful it can be to have
>to listen to people tell me how lucky I am that I don't have to deal
>with a nasty period every month. I don't expect strangers to
>understand the price I've got to pay for that little bit of convenience, they
> don’t know what it’s like and most don’t have the time nor inclination to find
> out. However, lack of knowledge is no excuse this time. This woman has
> explained (quite poetically, might I add) how deeply this effects her, and I
> should expect anyone who read and attempted to comprehend that post to, at the
> very least, *think* before they speak so nonchalantly.
>
>Regards,
>Ms. Ida Sadism
**********************************************************
* Therese Shellabarger - tls...@concentric.net *
* http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/ Shalom chaverot! *
**********************************************************
* See if I care about your opinion, the life I've led -- *
* each dawn I go forth with sword in hand, to sweep scum *
* from the decks of my battleship. Revenge at last, and *
* it be sweet, too, 'cuz now I get the girl, _not you_. *
Dark Phoenix
In article <1.s=p/r2...@panix.com>, Roving Reporter <Tls...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Maybe if this didn't clarify things, then the following might:
>(And I hope the trans won't get mad for me trying!)
>
>Not having a period is more than just not having PMS; if you want to be
>a "real" woman, it's somewhat equivalent to not getting asked to the prom,
>regardless of whether or not you want to go. Or like not getting asked to
>do something that is considered an honor, even though it's one you would
>gladly turn down. Or not having a choice of dates to go out with. Just as
>it hurts to be ignored by others, it also hurts not to have something as
>basic to the identity of being a woman as having periods. I mean, think
>about it, isn't that like the very physicality of what separates men from
>women? -- It represents the ability to carry life, and to give birth to it.
>You may never take advantage of that ability, but it's given to you as a
>women nonetheless, and I know that if I didn't have it, I'd feel a bit
>weird about myself, never mind that I don't want any children.
Well, one thing here: I don't think that the end-all-be-all of being a woman
is menstruating. If so, then it's all just a physical thing? And what about
post-menstrual women who can no longer menstruate or give birth? Do they
suddenly stop being women? This view is too Aristotlean for my taste.
I know I'm a lot more of a man then a lot of guys I know, and I'm sure
Adrienne's a lot more woman than I could ever be, period or no. I think it's
selling Adrienne short to say that she's never really be a woman since she
can't carry life inside of her body. As far as I'm -- and I hope she's and
everyone else is -- concerned, she *is* a real woman, 110%. End of story.
-- Ali.
Ayana Craven
In article <1.s=p/r2...@panix.com>,
Roving Reporter <Tls...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Not having a period is more than just not having PMS; if you want to be
>a "real" woman, it's somewhat equivalent to not getting asked to the prom,
>regardless of whether or not you want to go. Or like not getting asked to
>do something that is considered an honor, even though it's one you would
>gladly turn down. Or not having a choice of dates to go out with. Just as
>it hurts to be ignored by others, it also hurts not to have something as
>basic to the identity of being a woman as having periods. I mean, think
>about it, isn't that like the very physicality of what separates men from
>women? -- It represents the ability to carry life, and to give birth to it.
>You may never take advantage of that ability, but it's given to you as a
>women nonetheless, and I know that if I didn't have it, I'd feel a bit
>weird about myself, never mind that I don't want any children.
I can sort of understand how a MTF could see the possession of a
uterus as something important to "being a woman". I really can't
fathom how someone born with a uterus can see it as important in
that sense, except inasmuch as society tells us all that our main
purpose for existence is to have kids, and therefore a woman
without a uterus is worthless.
I was born with a uterus. I started trying to have it removed at
15. I was told I was too young. By the time I truly had a choice,
I was in my 30s and was no longer incapacitated for 3-5 days a
month. (I don't mean "in pain", I mean "drugged to unconsciousness",
although it was always that bad only for a few years).
Not everyone who's "born female" and raised female has the physical
equipment to bear children. This doesn't make them any the less
women, unless you're defining "women" as "those who can bear
children", in which case what do we become after menopause ?
I can understand MTFs, who missed out on some of the experiences
(good and bad) of growing up an acknowledged female, feeling like
the fact that they don't have periods and can't bear kids is another
way that they're set apart. I have a number of friends who don't
have periods, for various reasons, mostly involving major surgery.
Nobody questions that they're women, no matter that they don't have
uteri or bleed every month. They did for a time (well, almost all
of them).
I really really don't like this business of tying one's belonging in
the group of "real women" to one's reproductive ability.
Ayana, not-a-mod
--
"From the place where I stand watching
I swear my ship is coming in!"
-- Nanci Griffith
Kiira Triea
Dark Phoenix (a...@panix.com) wrote:
+---
| And besides -- my breasts are my best feature! How could I ever give them up?
| (Just yesterday I was wishing I could put them on someone else so *I* could
| enjoy them as much as everyone else can.)
|
| :-)
+---
<Rolling On the Floor Laughing... Really>
Geez... life is just such an unfair bitch ain't it? :-)
Kiira
Dark Phoenix
In article <1.0*=/r2v~4...@panix.com>, ci...@sonic.net (Kiira Triea) wrote:
>Dark Phoenix (a...@panix.com) wrote:
>
>+---
>| And besides -- my breasts are my best feature! How could I ever give them up?
>
>| (Just yesterday I was wishing I could put them on someone else so *I* could
>| enjoy them as much as everyone else can.)
>|
>| :-)
>+---
><Rolling On the Floor Laughing... Really>
>
>Geez... life is just such an unfair bitch ain't it? :-)
>
<sigh> Yes, indeed...I'm afraid I'll never find another pair of breasts I like
as much as my own.
Well, thank [deity] for mirrors!
-- Ali.
Roving Reporter
I wasn't. I was just trying to explain why denigrating this particular
facet would be insulting to a trans who doesn't have the opportunity
to bitch about it. It's not *really* necessary to being a woman; I know
a lesbian who was born without ovaries and never had a period in her life.
(Of course she has to take pills instead.) No one ever said she wasn't
a woman because of it.
On 13 Nov 1997, Ayana Craven wrote:
>I really really don't like this business of tying one's belonging in
>the group of "real women" to one's reproductive ability.
**********************************************************
* Therese Shellabarger - tls...@concentric.net *
* http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/ Shalom chaverot! *
**********************************************************
* See if I care about your opinion, the life I've led -- *
* each dawn I go forth with sword in hand, to sweep scum *
* from the decks of my battleship. Revenge at last, and *
* it be sweet, too, 'cuz now I get the girl, _not you_. *
--
Adele
eam...@ucdavis.edu (Elizabeth Mills) wrote:
>look, i was not trying to discount adriene's feelings and experiences
>about wanting to be a whole woman in my jesting. i just see it from
>another side, from the side of someone who has TERRIBLE periods. we're
>talking mood swings, severe cramps...the whole nine-yards. it's not fun
>but i deal with serious amounts of ibuprofen and a few tranquilizers.
>
Beth, I saw the joking as a positive thing, as being perfectly consonant
with Adrienne's point that what nature doles out to you isn't
necessarily fair or pretty & we just have to deal with it. I say this as
someone whose reproductive "choice" and health has only been preserved
by surgery (no guarantees tho).
Adrienne's comments about looking down past her breasts in the shower
and being distressed by what she saw really struck a chord with me. I
recall looking at the stitches holding my abdomen together and just
hating my body for being such a traitor.I still don't feel too good when
I look at the scars or when I say hullo to my doctor's speculum. I'm not
claiming the *same* experience, just that lots of us, even the
genetically XXs have limited access to 'natural born womanhood' and
fair choices. It's a bad situation & humour isn't a bad response. I
think gallows humour is cool.
I hope Adrienne doesn't feel hurt by it.
Adele
lisa cohen
Dark Phoenix wrote:
>
> In article <1.0*=/r2v~4...@panix.com>, ci...@sonic.net (Kiira Triea) wrote:
> >Dark Phoenix (a...@panix.com) wrote:
> >
> >+---
> >| And besides -- my breasts are my best feature! How could I ever give them up?
> >
> >| (Just yesterday I was wishing I could put them on someone else so *I* could
> >| enjoy them as much as everyone else can.)
> >|
> >| :-)
> >+---
> ><Rolling On the Floor Laughing... Really>
> >
> >Geez... life is just such an unfair bitch ain't it? :-)
> >
>
> <sigh> Yes, indeed...I'm afraid I'll never find another pair of breasts I like
> as much as my own.
but think of all the fun you can have looking for a pair you like as
much as your own!
lisa (always looking at the bright side of things)
lisa cohen
Dark Phoenix wrote:
>
> In article <1.0*=/r2v~4...@panix.com>, ci...@sonic.net (Kiira Triea) wrote:
> >Dark Phoenix (a...@panix.com) wrote:
> >
> >+---
> >| And besides -- my breasts are my best feature! How could I ever give them up?
> >
> >| (Just yesterday I was wishing I could put them on someone else so *I* could
> >| enjoy them as much as everyone else can.)
> >|
> >| :-)
> >+---
> ><Rolling On the Floor Laughing... Really>
> >
> >Geez... life is just such an unfair bitch ain't it? :-)
> >
>
> <sigh> Yes, indeed...I'm afraid I'll never find another pair of breasts I like
> as much as my own.
but think of all the fun you can have looking for a pair you like as
much as your own!
lisa (always looking at the bright side of things)
--
Elizabeth Mills
Dolf Dolson wrote:
: In article <1.s=p/r2...@panix.com>,
: Roving Reporter <Tls...@concentric.net> wrote:
: >Not having a period is more than just not having PMS; if you want to
: >be a "real" woman, it's somewhat equivalent to not getting asked to
: >the prom, regardless of whether or not you want to go.
: More even than not getting asked to the prom, you're not "real" women
: until you've experienced menopause.
oh great! something MORE to look forward to. = b
-Beth
DoD#4508, AMA#542204, NGG resident engine breaker
*****************************************************************************
check it out: http://home.cwnet.com/beffie
http://www.ziplink.net/~holm/ngg/ngg.html
--
Oh. THAT Beth...
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Adele wrote:
> Beth, I saw the joking as a positive thing, as being perfectly consonant
> with Adrienne's point that what nature doles out to you isn't
> necessarily fair or pretty & we just have to deal with it. I say this as
> someone whose reproductive "choice" and health has only been preserved
> by surgery (no guarantees tho).
well, that's good. i didn't mean any harm by it. i like your sentiments
about nature. nature's dealt me some fun li'l cards that i'll have to deal
with for the rest of my life including chemical imblanace in the old
cranium which makes me VERY vunerable to depression/anxiety/obsessive and
compulsive. not to mention i have shitty periods... but, it's shit that i
have to deal with and i do. i take medication for the chemical imbalance
and try to keep on top of it. i take drugs for the periods and try to
exercise to help w/ the cramps. you do what you have to do.
when i joke about "trading" problems, it's more like "hey, you want my bad
periods? you can give me (insert a problem here)." rather than a sentiment
that i'm dismissing the other person's problem as trivial and offering my
"more substantial" problem in return. well, this is in some cases, of
course. with adrienne, i was joking in more of a "well, maybe you SHOULD
count your blessings about how having your period..." in a rather
galgenhumor approach. compare it to another example of something that i
said today. the situation was: i had a bad anxiety episode today.
something triggered it and i started ticking and looping something bad.
most of the time, i can control this..but i didn't quite succeed. one of
my ususal reactions is for my entire digestive system to revolt, which it
did. my housemate and her gf were just about to sit down to dinner and i
had to run to the bathroom and puke. they were all "are you coming to
dinner?" i was all "i'm puking." they're all "are you okay?" and i was all
"dude, your cooking SUCKS deanna, i took one smell and HAD to puke!" of
course, i explained to them how i was feeling afterwards...and they were
cool..and then, of course, i had to say "you know, this IS really a cover.
you cooking REALLY does suck..." and deanna (housemate) said "well, that's
the last time i fucking cook dinner for you!"
fun, eh? sometimes you have to make terrible jokes to deal with bad stuff.
listen to emergency room surgeons. they're TERRIBLE. but, it's the way
they survive the horrible things they see. i do the same thing. it's a
survival mechanism.
> Adrienne's comments about looking down past her breasts in the shower
> and being distressed by what she saw really struck a chord with me. I
> recall looking at the stitches holding my abdomen together and just
> hating my body for being such a traitor.I still don't feel too good when
> I look at the scars or when I say hullo to my doctor's speculum. I'm not
> claiming the *same* experience, just that lots of us, even the
> genetically XXs have limited access to 'natural born womanhood' and
> fair choices. It's a bad situation & humour isn't a bad response. I
> think gallows humour is cool.
yeah..i feel that way when my body's freaking out while i'm having an
anxiety/obsessive attack. i'm saying "HEY, DAMMIT! I'M SUPPOSED TO BE THE
ONE IN CONTROL!!!" and my body is saying "HEHEHEHEHE... how does that
pizza taste the second time around, fuckhead?!?!?!" or when i'm on the rag
and i'm either in the bathroom shitting (again) or curled up w/ bad cramps
waiting for the 800mg of ibuprofen i've gulped to kick in. i just want to
get my fucking uterus cauterized inside to get rid of this whole menstrual
thing. i ususally listen to the sterelle's great song "on the rag" and get
though it.
a friend of mine killed himself last summer by running out in front a
truck on the freeway after slashing his wrists. he was missed the first
time and ran out again and got hit and killed by another vehicle. when i
found out the details, i said "well, you can't say that aaron was an
underachiever..." sometimes you have to laugh/cry/grit your teeth. when
muutal friends and i talk about aaron, i ususally say "my deal with him is
still on: when i die, i'm finding his faggot ass and kicking it all over
eternity for offing himself. he's dead. i'm going to KILL HIM." then we
all ususally have a sad laugh. i think we're all cried out over him for
now.
> I hope Adrienne doesn't feel hurt by it.
i kind of doubt that she did.
i guess the whole point of this rambling is that we all have shit in our
lives that we have to deal with. we all deal with it in different ways.
some of us need to talk about it with others in a very serious way. some
of us need to get others to feel sorry for us and whine. (well, a LOT of
us do this...me included at times!) some of us keep it all bottled up
inside and go postal eventually. MY way includes crying, some serious
black humour and rationalizing it all. that's me.
it may come off as insensitive and if people think i'm callous, shallow or
crass, then that's fine. maybe i am. in fact, i know that parts of me are
just that. and i know that it's part of my defense mechanisms in dealing
w/ the world..but i'm me and i'm human, just like everyone else. i live w/
me day in and day out. how i present myself on this group or any other
group is only a facet of who i am. i find it really foolish to judge a
person entirely by their posts on a newsgroup. i try not to do it myself
and fail a lot...hey, i'm not perfect by any sense of the word.
so, that's my $5.00 for the night. maybe i'll continue this later on.
maybe i'll flame someone. heheheeheheheh!
aurienne
In article <1.+8f...@panix.com>,
lisa cohen <lco...@journals.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Dark Phoenix wrote:
>>
>> In article <1.0*=/r2v~4...@panix.com>, ci...@sonic.net (Kiira Triea) wrote:
>> >Dark Phoenix (a...@panix.com) wrote:
>> >
>> >+---
>> >| And besides -- my breasts are my best feature! How could I ever give them up?
>> >
>> >| (Just yesterday I was wishing I could put them on someone else so *I* could
>> >| enjoy them as much as everyone else can.)
>> >|
>> >| :-)
>> >+---
>> ><Rolling On the Floor Laughing... Really>
>> >
>> >Geez... life is just such an unfair bitch ain't it? :-)
>> >
>>
>> <sigh> Yes, indeed...I'm afraid I'll never find another pair of breasts I like
>> as much as my own.
>
>but think of all the fun you can have looking for a pair you like as
>much as your own!
>
>lisa (always looking at the bright side of things)
>
>--
reasons I never liked my own that much....we look at most people's breasts
head-on, and see wonderful circles. We look at our own top-down, and see
triangles, and an arc of a tummy underneath. It just is an odd
perspective, and it took me a while to make a conscious effort to look at
them in a mirror to realize that they ARE pretty nice, and my tummy is NOT
huge and the dominating feature of my torso. Of course, getting the nip
pierced (to celebrate my MCSE!) has helped too <blush>.
--
"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of
a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the
top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." --Robert Pirsig
***** auri...@webpixie.com ***** http://www.webpixie.com/ *****
Myra Brennan
Roving Reporter wrote in message <1.s=p/r2...@panix.com>...
>Maybe if this didn't clarify things, then the following might:
>(And I hope the trans won't get mad for me trying!)
>
>Not having a period is more than just not having PMS; if you want to be
>a "real" woman, it's somewhat equivalent to not getting asked to the prom,
>regardless of whether or not you want to go. Or like not getting asked to
>do something that is considered an honor, even though it's one you would
>gladly turn down. Or not having a choice of dates to go out with.
These things sound more equivalent to ego feeding than
"womanhood".
>Just as
>it hurts to be ignored by others, it also hurts not to have something as
>basic to the identity of being a woman as having periods.
After finally having my uterus removed during a hysterectomy after
years of suffering, I can tell you from personal experience it hurts
a lot
less (both physically and emotionally) not having that particular
portion of this woman's anatomy. And my own
sense of "womaness" has not suffered one bit. I'm not saying
this because I think my reaction is universal, it probably is not,
I just don't feel your statement as fact is either.
>I mean, think
>about it, isn't that like the very physicality of what separates men from
>women? -- It represents the ability to carry life, and to give birth to it.
>You may never take advantage of that ability, but it's given to you as a
>women nonetheless, and I know that if I didn't have it, I'd feel a bit
>weird about myself, never mind that I don't want any children.
It was given to me because I was born female, not because I
was *born* a woman. Because I can no longer bear children
am I no longer a woman? Sorry, I just find it difficult to equate
ones reproductive abilities with ones womaness. Again that's
just me.
Myra
Nothing happens in contradiction to nature; only in contradiction to what we
know of it.
Dana Scully, The X-Files