[PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
Rasmus Lerdorf
explain what exactly cmf.php.net would provide?
-Rasmus
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Michael Glazer wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Winstead" <ji...@php.net>
> To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 6:37 PM
> Subject: Re: PHP XMF
>
>
> > you should take this up on the php...@lists.php.net mailing list.
> >
> > jim
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 04:00:44AM -0400, Michael Glazer wrote:
> > > Hi Jim
> > >
> > > My name is Michael Glazer I am an IA and the founder of
> http://4arrow.com
> > >
> > > I am sorry to be emailing you. I found your email at news.php.net.
> > > I have been tirelessly looking for a way to contact the folks at php.net
> to no avail.
> > >
> > > I have developed a thin layered gateway application using PHP and Apache
> directives.
> > >
> > > The primary use of XPC (http://xpc.4arrow.com) (http://dev.4arrow.com)
> is a CMF similar to http://cmf.zope.org
> > >
> > > I was hoping to open my development on php.net with possibly
> http://cmf.php.net
> > >
> > > XPC can be used as a Intranet, Extranet, Web hosting, collaborative
> communities and much more.
> > >
> > > It is simply a gateway that parses URIs sent to it and outputs the
> appropriate data using standard HTTP requests.
> > >
> > > I see XPC as weblogs.com, blogger.com, phpnuke.org, and cmf.zope.org to
> the Nth degree.
> > >
> > > XPC is not server software, not a module, or a plugin, it can be run in
> any php enabled Apache web serving folder with no modifications. Therefore,
> web hosted users can utilize XPC as well. Best of all XPC eliminates the
> need for query strings.
> > >
> > > I am planning on publicly releasing the first alpha version on Tuesday
> July 24th at http://dev.4arrow.com.
> > >
> > > Please let me know what your thoughts are for a potential open
> development site such as http://cmf.php.net
> > >
> > > Thank you in advance
> > >
> > > Michael Glazer
> > > Information Architect
> > > www.4arrow.com
> > > mgl...@4arrow.com
>
>
>
Michael Glazer
I am not sure why you are not being able to view the dev site.
Why should you pick me over the other CMS's is not my decision, obviously,
it is yours.
The fact that you pointed out more than one CMF is my point exactly. There
needs to be one standard PHP CMF that is object oriented. There isn't twenty
CMF's on Zope. Instead there is one CMF and twenty products that developers
build for the CMF that can be dropped into it seamlessly.
That is exactly what my point of what cmf.php.net would provide to PHP
developers. A centralized standardized PHP CMF that can easily be built
upon. When I say "built upon" I do not mean "add ons" I mean an entirely new
CMS based on the XPC CMF.
Frameworks are independent (different than) from CMSs (Content Management
Systems). A CMS is a "product" of a CMF. So is a Web Portal, Intranet,
Extranet, or a web hosting application.
Having large numbers of disjointed CMF projects does not impress me. If
anything it frustrates me as a developer interested in building PHP
applications. That is exactly why I built XPC.
As a corporate IA in NYC I have worked on and with many large commercial CMF
software products. Such as ATG by dynamo, Vignette, TeamSite by Interwoven
and the Zeo server from Zope.
All I can say is that all of the CMS systems you noted aren't that
impressive compared to the application servers I have stated above.
Below are the problems with current PHP applications that I have worked on
in XPC to solve.
The zealous reliance on MySQL for data storage. XPC has an option to use
static databases (XML) for content data storage.
One of the biggest problems is the use of Query strings in PHP products.
Large systems like Midgard need root server access.
Most of the noted applications (products) are stand alone. They cannot be
integrated into each other easily.
The point of having one cmf.php.net is the same reason why there is one
cmf.zope.org to centralize and standardize an abstracted open platform that
can easily be used, manipulated and built upon. That is something PHP does
not have. PHP is very disjointed and all over the place. I think the
frustration of many PHP users and developers is the lack of centralized
software building based on PHP.
I hope you understand what my point for cmf.php.net is now.
Regards,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
> > Is my grammar the problem or the email format (it is set to plain text
with
> > Western European (ISO) encoding in outlook express)?
>
> Everything was quoted after >'s and your line lengths were well above the
> normal 72 characters.
>
> > You can see a working example of the XPC CMF at http://dev.4arrow.com
>
> None of the links there seem to do anything. They just link back to
> dev.4arrow.com or more precisely
> http://free-eservices.com/inc/js/sites/free-eservices.com/site.js
> if I click on http://free-eservices.com
>
> > cmf.php.net would provide a object oriented content management framework
> > that is very similar to http://cmf.zope.org
>
> There are probably a dozen CMF systems for PHP. Why should yours be
> cmf.php.net? My tendency has always to avoid favouring any one project
> over any others.
>
> > The cmf.php.net would provide a pre-built framework that can be
"dropped"
> > into any PHP enabled Apache web server that can be used for easy portal
> > building, collaborative communities and the like.
>
> Right, sort of like:
>
> http://www.midgard-project.org
> http://phpnuke.org
> http://www.codepoet.de
> http://mysource.squiz.net
> http://pecos.screwdriver.net
> http://phpreactor.org
> http://php-j00k.w30wnzj00.com/
> http://www.pslash.com
> http://mcyra.homeip.net/homepage/phpcms/
> http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu
> http://phpweblog.org
> http://www.hklc.com/midgard_manual
> http://www.miro.com.au
> http://www.dotvoid.com/firesite.php
> http://www.muze.nl/software/ariadne/
> http://faqforge.serialhacker.net
> http://www.fazlamesai.net/basit/eng/
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/darkportal/
> http://drop.org/module.php?mod=drupal
> http://pcrochat.online.fr/webus/programs/easysite/
> http://www.xmlhead.com/index.php/xmlhead_eutychus
> http://www.thetuckshop.com/spincms/
>
> Every single one of those projects could be dropped into cmf.php.net and
> with a bit of tweaking do what you are talking about. What makes yours
> special?
>
> > Using the framework eventually other "products" can be dropped into the
same
> > folder, be turned on or off, and given very specific properties via the
web
> > interface just like in Zope.
>
> Sure, at least a couple of the above projects do the exact same thing.
> Have a look at Midgard.
>
> > Features include:
> > ACL group user access.
> > Reuse of abstracted code.
> > Multiple file formats.
> > No query strings.
> > Client and server requests (like XML-RPC).
> > Unlimited domains with unique content running off of the same cmf
instance
> > (IP address in specific web serving folder).
> >
> > Please let me know if there is still a problem with my message's
formatting.
>
> I'm sorry, I still don't understand why we should single you out here and
> give you cmf.php.net.
>
> -Rasmus
>
Michael Glazer
I have lived in New York City all my life and I never want to grow a
"thicker skin."
I'd rather have a thin skin with all the repercussions that might follow.
I never want to become jaded, obtuse, or sharp to anyone.
One thing I pride myself on is civility and basic manners.
That is the foundation of all communications;
and communications is what this (WWW) is all about, isn't it?
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zeev Suraski" <ze...@zend.com>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Cc: <php...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
Michael,
Don't let this kind of stuff let you down. You got a very cold shower as
your intro to the opensource community, but this isn't the way it's always
like. You were exposed to some of the drawbacks in this model, so you
wouldn't have any idealistic expectations, but a bit more rational
ones... But as I said in the beginning, if you learn to grow a slightly
thicker skin and just go on and contribute, there are good chances things
would work off.
My suggestion to you is to just go on with your project, and possibly try
to interest other people to join in. If you have more concrete needs from
us (as in the PHP group), let us know.
Zeev
At 14:47 22/07/2001, Michael Glazer wrote:
>Your right.
>
>Its no big deal. My tactics have failed. I'm beyond that I don't expect
>anything else.
>
>What concerns me at this point is the attitude of you folks its pretty
>endearing and warm hearted to say the least.
>
>I feel now, more than ever, a greater sense towards the open source
>community.
>
>The sense of inclusion and participation seeps out of these emails that it
>makes me want to stay up all night and code great new ideas all night and
>give it to this great community....
>
>Note: American sarcasm and irony
>
>-Michael
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Björn Schotte" <bjo...@baer.main.de>
>To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
>Cc: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>; <php...@lists.php.net>
>Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 5:38 AM
>Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
>
>
> > * Michael Glazer wrote:
> > > I feel I want to yell and scream out, "who does he think he is?"
> >
> > Michael, _you_ want to "sell" something to the php.net folks.
> > Why should anybody of them fall to their knees and praise you
> > for your idea/suggestion? If I look up this e-mail conversation,
> > I only see somebody (you) who sells himself very poorly and who
> > says "But mummy, I want to have my project on a sub-domain at
> > php.net!!!". You aren't in the position to clamour for something.
> > You are in the position to sell your product/project in such a
> > manner that php.net folks say "Oh, good, nice project, let's
> > give him a sub domain". If they won't (which I can understand),
> > you failed your tactics.
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > [...]
> >
> > Please consider http://learn.to/quote/, thanks.
> >
> > --
> > PHP Schulungen und | International PHP Conference
> > Schulungsmaterial: | 05. - 07.11.2001
> > http://thinkphp.de/ | Astron Hotel, Frankfurt
> > http://rent-a-phpwizard.de/schulungen.php | http://www.php-kongress.de/
>
>
>--
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Zeev Suraski <ze...@zend.com>
CTO & co-founder, Zend Technologies Ltd. http://www.zend.com/
Michael Glazer
Thank you for your kind words.
I am still going to release the code (hopefully this Tuesday, 24th of July).
I don't expect anything from anyone. I have worked on the 4Arrow portal for
over two years now. I never charged anyone to use it or limit their access
to the multitude of tools, applications and information I present there. I
have never even used any ad banners, promoted commercial products, and I
have never made one cent directly from the 4Arrow portal of websites that I
regularly and solely maintain by myself.
I have always believed in empowering others with knowledge you have without
being selfish. That has been my purpose on developing the 4Arrow websites
all this time and my passion for Web development.
The only needs I have from the PHP group is... After all this I am not sure
anymore.
I guess I don't need anything I just wanted to share and exchange some ideas
about content management frameworks and best practices in regards to PHP
development.
The original cmf.php.net was just an idea to start a centralized place to
spear head this form of collaborations and discussions.
I am still going to aim XPC development towards a CMF like tool that is
employed over at Zope.org (http://cmf.zope.org) With Zope like qualities in
building and maintaining web sites.
Regards,
Zeev Suraski
Björn Schotte
Rasmus Lerdorf
> anything it frustrates me as a developer interested in building PHP
> applications. That is exactly why I built XPC.
Well, your system isn't exactly impresive either as it doesn't work with
Netscape (didn't you test it?) and a non Host-header GET request results
in this:
<b>Fatal error</b>: Failed opening required
'/home/foxxie/public_html/inc/cfg/sites/_config.php'
(include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php') in
<b>/home/foxxie/public_html/inc/xpc.php</b> on line <b>29</b><br>
-Rasmus
Michael Glazer
customize for my corporate clients.
The newer versions of XPC are on http://dev.4arrow.com
I am not trying to showboat.
I am trying to participate.
The reason I pointed out XPC is to display some ideals I have for a PHP CMF.
The license would be GPL, free to do as you please.
Specifications:
Its pretty late here (3:30AM). I have written a lot of docs on XPC concepts.
basically a object oriented approach to reuse code, create classes, class
properties, class attributes. These classes form objects that have their own
properties and attributes. The properties and attributes are values defined
by administrators, clients, members, and anonymous visitors.
XPC uses server side parsing (PHP) to create a highly structured facade
based on environmental variables and defined values by editors,
administrators and members.
Nothing is defined, everything is reused. To present unique and specific (or
shared) designs / file formats for every URI.
The SQL Schema contains 9 tables
Here is the SQL Schema for a generic XPC site.
admins, dirs, pages, products, properties, queue, related, members, and
versions.
Here is a related link to explain a bit more about the generalizing of data
Schemas:
http://dev.4arrow.com/home/papers/Documentation/How_XPC_works_for_members.xp
c
Here is another sample link that displays the above unique content in RSS
format
http://dev.4arrow.com/home/formats/papers/How_XPC_works_for_members.rss
This is an email I sent to a developer last week:
The project is a CMS that reuses code for multiple domains and subdomains
that are all pointed at one IPs folder.
Each domain has a unique database (or shared with unique prefix value).
Each domain can have clients, users, admins, members
Each member, user, admin, or client may or may not have a subdomain or a sub
sub domain below the visited top level domain or the subdomain specific to
them.
What is needed is a abstracted framework that can determine the visitors
status (user, admin, member, client) what their appropriate settings are and
then their appropriate access for administration of their site. Also allow
them to sign up based on the current domain's settings.
I use wildcard settings on all domains being pointed to the folder that is
running the CMS. this allows for the use of sub and sub sub domains (i.e.
php.4arrow.com, mike.php.4arrow.com)
Every uri_request passes through a "gateway" file (php script) that parses
the URI and includes the appropriate domain settings. it checks for user
authentication, user status, and the proper html output for the link.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Cc: <php...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 3:09 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
> > XPC is a proprietary product that I was hoping to open into the PHP
> > developers community.
>
> Open in what sense? Your site seems pretty clear on this:
>
> http://www.4arrow.com/accounts/xpc/home.xpc says:
> "To purchase an XPC license, receive customized installation, or to become
> invloved with XPC's development please contact us."
>
> > As I said it is a conceptual framework that can be implemented easily
and
> > with any type of programming language.
> >
> > Making a CMF for PHP is not dependent on XPC.
> > XPC is its own thing.
>
> Ok.
>
> > I made a class to parse every bit of every possible URI so that
> > every bit of every URI formation (from the protocol to file the
extension)
> > can be used as variables).
>
> Is this somehow different from parse_url() ? (see
http://php.net/parse_url)
> Ok, parse_url doesn't split apart the path part, you have the basename()
> and dirname() functions to do that and a simple
> substr($str,strrpos($str,'.')) to get the file extension.
>
> > The other parts about web hosting and collaborative communities using
ACL
> > user group access is not new.
> >
> > My goal here last night was to present a conceptual framework similar to
> > cmf.zope.org that can be developed by PHP developers as a standard
building
> > framework (not reliant on root access or anything beside PHP and an
Apache
> > web server).
>
> Ok, but in order to present that you need to actually show us something.
> A design spec, some code, anything. From my perspective I see a request
> for cmf.php.net by a proprietary software vendour. I may have jumped to
> conclusions too quickly, and if so, I apologize.
>
> > That was my only intention. I was also planning on making XPC free for
> > download on Tuesday the 24th of July... I have been very hesitant and
unsure
> > if I would do it.
>
> Under what license?
>
> -Rasmus
>
Andi Gutmans
> > I don't think we need to say "no" before the PEAR guys take a look at it
> > and maybe discuss it in more detail with the author. I just didn't
> > understand the rush of you saying "no" without waiting for others to
> > respond and discussing it in more details. We might come to the conclusion
> > that it's a lousy idea but I prefer coming to that conclusion hearing other
> > opinions too. We might come to a conclusion that if a zillion things are
> > changed it might be nice to have. Or the discussion might spawn a new Pear
> > framework.
>
>If it was remotely competitive with something like Midgard I would tend to
>agree. But it is just so far behind. But sure, if the PEAR folks can be
>convinced, great.
I don't want to convince anyone :) I have no personal interest in this. I
just thought it was odd that I wake up and whilst reading my EMails the
issue was settled already w/o anyone responding.
I just prefer having more people give a "no" so that we can give a real
final "no".
Anyway, let's just see if someone in php-dev/pear thinks it's interesting.
If not, we should leave it as your "no".
Andi
Rasmus Lerdorf
> framework for PHP. This is very much like PEAR trying to give people good
> framework/class solutions.
If you had read my message you would have seen that I suggested it may fit
within PEAR. He was asking for cmf.php.net though which I just don't see
happening.
And frankly, looking at the quality of his site compared to other content
management frameworks out there, I don't see his being at the top of the
heap. That doesn't mean it couldn't be one day. But if you are seriously
suggesting saying "yes" at this point and setting up cmf.php.net for him
and basically framing his system as *the* PHP content management system,
then please say so.
-Rasmus
Michael Glazer
have an idea about what I am using XPC in a CMF for.
below is a more detailed description.
Products are objects
They are represented in URLS as top level directories "parent directories"
that are related to a table in the current domain's database (or shared DB).
An object or a product is created when a URI is requested.
The object is formed based on the URI.
Once formed the proper settings are presented to the requestor based on
pre-defined product / object settings and the related visitors status in
relation to the current domain.
add a class -> create the class
create objects from the class (properties)
create a "object" for "CD Player" class
or properties for the "CD Player" class or "product"
create multiple "CD Player" objects from one "CD Player" class
methods are attributes for a specific object of the specific class.
An object is a prototype of the "CD Player" class
Inheritance of the object are global properties that can be used throughout
or as a "stencil."
Michael Glazer
I may have seem a little heated, but it felt like a very quick negative
response towards my idea.
I have no personal agenda or gripes. I didn't mean to put down your MidGard
project, I am sure it probably fits the bill.
Whether there is a cmf.php.net domain or another site makes no difference to
me.
I just have some CMF ideas (from my experience with other CMF software
products) that I wanted to share and collaborate to bring PHP into this form
of development.
Being an IA I obviously have my own perspectives and points of view I would
like to contribute and collaborate.
That's really it.
I want to collaborate with PHP developers to build a solid CMF on pure PHP
that can easily be equal to or better than the CMF by Zope
(http://cmf.zope.org).
PS the PHP CMF standard (my suggestion) does not have to be XPC as is. I
have built and designed a conceptual framework. What code is used to
implement these ideas do not have to necessarily be mine.
The point I am trying to make is that there are options, many options and if
there are developers who like this idea please let me know.
PPS if you missed the "idea" (CMF conceptual framework) please visit
http://www.4arrow.com/users/my/html/sections.php/op/listarticles/secid/4
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andi Gutmans" <an...@zend.com>
To: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>
Cc: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>; <php...@lists.php.net>;
<pear...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
> I don't think we need to say "no" before the PEAR guys take a look at it
> and maybe discuss it in more detail with the author. I just didn't
> understand the rush of you saying "no" without waiting for others to
> respond and discussing it in more details. We might come to the conclusion
> that it's a lousy idea but I prefer coming to that conclusion hearing
other
> opinions too. We might come to a conclusion that if a zillion things are
> changed it might be nice to have. Or the discussion might spawn a new Pear
> framework.
>
> Andi
>
Rasmus Lerdorf
> and maybe discuss it in more detail with the author. I just didn't
> understand the rush of you saying "no" without waiting for others to
> respond and discussing it in more details. We might come to the conclusion
> that it's a lousy idea but I prefer coming to that conclusion hearing other
> opinions too. We might come to a conclusion that if a zillion things are
> changed it might be nice to have. Or the discussion might spawn a new Pear
> framework.
If it was remotely competitive with something like Midgard I would tend to
agree. But it is just so far behind. But sure, if the PEAR folks can be
convinced, great.
-Rasmus
Michael Glazer
I always felt "contributing" was a shared experience, not a one man job.
I would assume others would help and contribute fixes as you have mentioned.
To me the issue of Netscape is not what is an issue here.
The issue is an individual asking help from a open and collaborative
community and getting shot down in the dark.
Whether Netscape or others can view something is not a big deal with some
testing and changes I'm sure it can.
This sort of testing would be done with others participating, that is the
hope and purpose of group development and collaboration, is it not?
-Michael
A one man job is not like no job I've ever known.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Chmara" <r...@Opus1.COM>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Cc: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>; <php...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
> On Saturday, July 21, 2001, at 06:43 PM, Michael Glazer wrote:
> > Hi
> > I was guessing that was the reason when you first said the
> > JavaScript link.
> > Why would I test it with Netscape? I wouldn't. Waste of time to
> > be honest.
> > The president of Netscape told me that their Netscape browser
> > doesn't work.
>
> Okay, is this a race to get into a bit-bucket?
>
> How about, oh, Opera for OS X, iCab, lynx, Netscape, Mozilla?
> (there are about 20 Mil
> pissed off MacOS users just around the corner...)
>
> You see, PHP is a language that is installed and used on a
> *very* large number
> of platforms, many of which that IE can't even hope to support.
>
> If you offered patches to PHP, to be applied if needed, or used
> closed source,
> for win32 folks, only, that could help your product.
>
> If your openly contribue your product to the PHP source, with the
> understanding that it will *fail* on many browsers, for many
> users, but were
> intending on fixing that problem, that could help.
>
> As it is, your source is broken, on at least 3 browsers. And you don't
> seem to be opening it up for repair.
>
> And you don't seem to intend to fix it.
>
> How does it help PHP to add standards-damaging (or standards breaking)
> code into the code base?
>
> Can't you just add it as a layer to pear?
>
> -Bop
>
> --2D426F70|759328624|00101101010000100110111101110000
> r...@opus1.com, 520-326-6109, http://www.opus1.com/ron/
> The opinions expressed in this email are not necessarily those
> of myself,
> my employers, or any of the other little voices in my head.
Michael Glazer
Its no big deal. My tactics have failed. I'm beyond that I don't expect
anything else.
What concerns me at this point is the attitude of you folks its pretty
endearing and warm hearted to say the least.
I feel now, more than ever, a greater sense towards the open source
community.
The sense of inclusion and participation seeps out of these emails that it
makes me want to stay up all night and code great new ideas all night and
give it to this great community....
Note: American sarcasm and irony
-Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Björn Schotte" <bjo...@baer.main.de>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Cc: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>; <php...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
Rasmus Lerdorf
> just thought it was odd that I wake up and whilst reading my EMails the
> issue was settled already w/o anyone responding.
It seemed like an obvious one. The demo URL he gave didn't work. When I
dug up a browser it worked with (Opera) and poked around I learned this
thing isn't an open source project so cmf.php.net would be a big fat
advertisement for 4arrow.com where you can go to buy an XPC license or get
a "private consultation and needs assesment". And one of its big claim to
fames is that it eliminates ugly query strings. ie. they discoverd
$PATH_INFO and perhaps even ForceType,
And the published API for the thing is:
Arguments
---------
The arguments that XPC employ are arguments that are sent via standard
HTTP URI REQUESTs of enviromental variable values.
$domain =
$xpc_url =
$sitepath =
$siteroot =
$file =
$ext =
$access =
$fmt =
$pagetpl =
$pagekeys =
$pagedesc =
Methods
-------
The methods that XPC employ are passive aggresive methds of enviromental
variable manipulation.
Methods include:
currentDomain() =
currentPage() =
pageTpl() =
pageStatus() =
pageAccess() =
pageFormat() =
pageMeta() =
That's the sum total of the API documentation. Here comes the
installation docs:
XPC Manual setup and Installation
---------------------------------
XPC can be either manually installed or setup vis a vis the 4Arrow setup
browser install. The 4Arrow setup browser installer can be done locally
or remotely without any need to manually edit any files.
There are a few more pages describing various stuff and no code to
download!
Compare that to the excellent documentation available for Midgard at
http://www.midgard-project.org/req/midgard-1.4/
or as a PDF: http://www.midgard-project.org/manual_dwnld/manual.pdf.gz
The architecture of XPC may very well be sound. But we have no way of
knowing this since the code is not available and the available
documentation is useless. And the parts we can see seem shaky.
Basically all the symptoms of a very young project. I probably dismissed
Michael a tad abruptly, but I was annoyed at him posting a private reply
to a public list (not that I said anything private in my message, just the
etiquette of it) and his silly reasoning for not supporting Netscape (CEO
of Netscape told him it didn't work) and then after poking around to see
what the hell XPC was, learning that there was nothing there except an
apparently proprietary product which was poorly documented. Considering
this, having him ask for cmf.php.net seemed absurd to me.
My advice to Michael and 4arrow would be to try to build a community
around this project by first putting the code out there for the community
to play with, and second, spending a lot of time documenting and
presenting the architecture in a concise manner. Without these two steps
you can't possibly expect to win the support of
-Rasmus
Andi Gutmans
> > I wan to thank you for making your quick decision.
>
>Well, there is no point wasting your time. If we were going to push a
>single content management framework as the standard PHP framework which in
>itself it quite unlikely, then we would pick one of the established ones
>written by people with a history in the PHP community and an understanding
>of that community.
>
>Content-management is outside the scope of the PHP project. It may fit
>within the scope of the PEAR project at some point.
>
>And you cannot alienate most non-Windows users by flatly stating that you
>won't support Netcape. How can you position something as a generic
>framework if 10-15% of all web users are not eligible to use it?
Rasmus,
Why would the fact that Michael isn't interested in supporting Netscape by
himself stop this from becoming a PHP community project? I think the whole
idea of making this a php.net/PEAR project would be that others from the
community would help improve it and it would become what people want it to
become.
I actually think he has a point that we should strive to create one good
framework for PHP. This is very much like PEAR trying to give people good
framework/class solutions.
Why are you being so completely against without letting the rest of php-dev
& pear-dev discuss it? "Ok, then you have made our decision quite easy.".
Who is "our"?
Anyway, I'm not saying that this PHP XMF needs to necessarily become the
basis but I think it'd be a good idea to pitch this to the PEAR guys and
see what they think about it (cc'ed them). I'm sure that if the pear guys
would take such a project under their hood it would work with Netscape
within a few weeks. Working or not working with Netscape is not a reason
for not taking something as a starting baseline IMO.
Andi
Ron Chmara
Rasmus Lerdorf
Well, there is no point wasting your time. If we were going to push a
single content management framework as the standard PHP framework which in
itself it quite unlikely, then we would pick one of the established ones
written by people with a history in the PHP community and an understanding
of that community.
Content-management is outside the scope of the PHP project. It may fit
within the scope of the PEAR project at some point.
And you cannot alienate most non-Windows users by flatly stating that you
won't support Netcape. How can you position something as a generic
framework if 10-15% of all web users are not eligible to use it?
-Rasmus
Andi Gutmans
I don't think we need to say "no" before the PEAR guys take a look at it
and maybe discuss it in more detail with the author. I just didn't
understand the rush of you saying "no" without waiting for others to
respond and discussing it in more details. We might come to the conclusion
that it's a lousy idea but I prefer coming to that conclusion hearing other
opinions too. We might come to a conclusion that if a zillion things are
changed it might be nice to have. Or the discussion might spawn a new Pear
framework.
Andi
Rasmus Lerdorf
> to extend beyond.
>
> If I was to look behind I wouldn't move forward as quickly. The rate of
> innovation is only as quick as those who make it happen.
>
> Anyhow, I don't code backwards only forward. Non complaint browsers are not
> something I spend my time thinking about.
Ok, then you have made our decision quite easy.
Thanks for your time.
-Rasmus
Rasmus Lerdorf
Michael Glazer
So is this how PHP development works?
All the innuendo in your emails make me nauseous.
I feel I want to yell and scream out, "who does he think he is?"
Rasmus I must say this is a first. I have never met anyone of your
character.
I will not attempt to answer your conjectures, its to farfetched to respond
to.
If you have a specific and honest question for me feel free to ask me
instead of assuming and denigrating me.
Blows my mind...
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>
To: "Andi Gutmans" <an...@zend.com>
Cc: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>; <php...@lists.php.net>;
<pear...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
Michael Glazer
XPC is a proprietary product that I was hoping to open into the PHP
developers community.
As I said it is a conceptual framework that can be implemented easily and
with any type of programming language.
Making a CMF for PHP is not dependent on XPC.
XPC is its own thing.
XPC is a gateway to parse URIs and present data in any format file type from
remote locations or devices (a client server relationship).
I use it to run unlimited domains on one IP folder without root level
access.
Each domain has its own unique use of the same reused PHP code.
I use it for data distribution in multiple file formats.
I use it to create meta data and high search rankings "on-the-fly" for
non-existent files that appear to be true URLs to search bots (not using
path info) I made a class to parse every bit of every possible URI so that
every bit of every URI formation (from the protocol to file the extension)
can be used as variables).
The other parts about web hosting and collaborative communities using ACL
user group access is not new.
My goal here last night was to present a conceptual framework similar to
cmf.zope.org that can be developed by PHP developers as a standard building
framework (not reliant on root access or anything beside PHP and an Apache
web server).
That was my only intention. I was also planning on making XPC free for
download on Tuesday the 24th of July... I have been very hesitant and unsure
if I would do it.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Cc: <php...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
> > If you have a specific and honest question for me feel free to ask me
> > instead of assuming and denigrating me.
>
> It was not an attempt to do that.
>
> Ok, questions.
>
> Where do I download XPC?
>
> Where do I download the documentation for XPC?
>
> Is XPC a proprietary product from 4arrow.com?
>
> These were the "denigrations of you" in my message as far as I can see.
>
> -Rasmus
>
Michael Glazer
I was guessing that was the reason when you first said the JavaScript link.
Why would I test it with Netscape? I wouldn't. Waste of time to be honest.
The president of Netscape told me that their Netscape browser doesn't work.
I believe him and the number limited of users who actually use Backwards
compatible browsers.
I'm a web developer not a Q&A specialist.
If I was to take my time doing Q&A I don't think I would be successful in
developing the Web.
Development is usually a forward approach, called innovation. To innovate is
to extend beyond.
If I was to look behind I wouldn't move forward as quickly. The rate of
innovation is only as quick as those who make it happen.
Anyhow, I don't code backwards only forward. Non complaint browsers are not
something I spend my time thinking about.
regards,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Cc: <php...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
Michael Glazer
I wan to thank you for making your quick decision.
I wasn't sure if I would pursue my time with PHP.
I needed to see if there was a future with PHP or if I should move to
directly to Zope and C#.
Thank you for making that decision easy so I didn't have to waste my time.
Thanks again
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <ras...@php.net>
To: "Michael Glazer" <mgl...@4arrow.com>
Cc: <php...@lists.php.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Fw: PHP XMF
Rasmus Lerdorf
> instead of assuming and denigrating me.
It was not an attempt to do that.