Nizkor & B'nai B'rith Allied in Their Quest to Imprison Those That Doubt JEWS!
Doc Tavish
"Exposing Coercion of Censorship is NOT an Attack on Free Speech --
Nizkor's Own Ken McVay's False Attitudes on Free Speech"
http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=209579221
Subject: Text of Attack on Veracity by Michael Hoffman^2
From: kmc...@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
[...]
Hmmm. .. no "attack on the internet" at all. How can that be? Did
Mr. Hoffman lie?
Consider his "stand" on free speech:
"They have a right to that opinion which I will safeguard out
of my desire to ensure rights of free speech for all." (Michael
Hoffman II, May 7, 1995. "HARD QUESTIONS FOR REVISIONISTS")
In article <hoffman-1001...@pm1-23.nidlink.com>,
hof...@hoffman-info.com (Michael A. Hoffman II) wrote:
"...now is the time to publicly expose Jewish rabbis who think
they have the right to tell universities what websites should or
should not be on a server."
In short, Mr. Hoffman's puppydog support for free speech in 1995
was specious nonsense, like much of the man's writing. In truth,
he is absolutely (see above) opposed to free speech for some
ethnic groups with which he seems to have difficultlies verging on
clinical paranoia.
--
Nizkor Canada | http://www.nizkor.org
------ END ------
Comrade McVay I did not see Mr. Hoffman declare deny the rights of
free speech to rabbis, I see him saying EXPOSE them for trying to
coerce their brand of "free speech" on universities! Big difference
Comrade- a damned big difference. You can't appreciate "freedom of
speech" because of your view:
"I did at that time approve [of] Canadian actions against Zundel
against Keegstra, ah it was sort of a gut reaction because they
offended me so deeply I said good shut them up put them in jail do
what ever it takes, ....no free speech."
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=157012965
Above all look at who adds to the money purse of Nizkor:
http://www.nizkor.org/funding.html
The Nizkor Project is pleased to announce its cooperative affiliation
with the League for Human Rights of B'nai Brith Canada. The League is
a national volunteer organization dedicated to combatting
antisemitism, racism and bigotry, and to promoting human rights for
all Canadians.
Please print this form and send to:
The Nizkor Project
c/o
The League for Human Rights of B'nai Brith Canada
15 Hove Street
Toronto, Ontario M3H 4Y8
Please make your donations payable to "The League for Human Rights of
B'nai Brith Canada," and add the words "Nizkor Trust Fund" to the
cheque's memo section.
Donations over $10.00 will receive a Canadian tax receipt.
[#0235903-43-13]
We very much appreciate your donations, which assist in the
development and enhancement of The Nizkor Project website. (Without
your continuing help, we wouldn't be here.)
Thank you.
---------- END ------------
Their brand of Human Rights will eventually be another Tiananenman
Square except for Western European Gentiles who will be protesting for
the right of free speech!
As for B'nai B'rith believing in free speech just click this link and
you'll see how they co-operated in trying to send to prison a person
that disputed the "Holocaust":
(Remember that B'nai B'rith is Nizkor's money launderer and Jeffrey G.
Brown has allied himself to both orgs as can easily be proved using
DejaNews archives! Doc Tavish 12/16/98))
http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=368244916
"Orwellian Concepts - Nizkor's Own Ken McVay's Posting on Free Speech
- America Beware The Nizkorites Have a Branch in Texas!"
(Excerpt - Click link to read entire document.)
Here is Nizkor's master speaking:
http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=318943903
Subject: MUST READ! B'nai B'rith Believes in Freedom of Speech?
Yeah, right!
From: doc_t...@bigfoot.com (Gunther Schiller)
Date: 1998/01/25
Message-ID: <34ca8a33...@news.phoenix.net>
http://bnaibrith.org/pr/brazil2.html
From the World's Largest Jewish Organization
------------------------------------------------------------------------
B'nai B'rith
------------------------------------------------------------------------
LANDMARK COURT DECISION CONVICTS HOLOCAUST DENIER IN BRAZIL
Washington, D.C. (November 7, 1996) -- For the first time in Latin
America a Holocaust denier has been found guilty and sentenced to two
years in prison. The landmark decision of the High Court of Justice in
the southernmost Brazilian state of Rio Grande do Sul reversed a lower
court ruling and resulted in the conviction of Siegfried Ellwanger on
grounds that he violated the nation's constitution and penal code.
The president of B'nai B'rith in Brazil hailed the decision.
"Holocaust deniers such as Ellwanger seek to encourage racial and
religious divisions that are not compatible with our democratic
society," said Abrao Lowenthal. B'nai B'rith along with other Jewish
groups in Brazil brought Ellwanger to trial.
Because Ellwanger had no previous criminal record the court waived his
prison sentence and ordered him to perform three years of community
service and ordered him to stop publishing his racist material. Under
the ruling, Ellwanger's books will be confiscated and banned.
Ellwanger, who writes under the name "S.E. Castan," has written or
published 13 anti-Semitic books in Portuguese including the infamous
The Elders of the Protocols of Zion and Henry Ford's The International
Jew. One of Ellwanger's books is titled The Holocaust: Jewish or
German."
The Jewish community of the state of Rio Grande do Sul, which brought
the case to court, was pleased with the verdict. According to their
attorney Helio Santana, a B'nai B'rith member, "Ellwanger has denied
the existence of concentration camps as well as the numbers of people
who died at the hands of Nazis and their collaborators. He tried to
twist reality by stating that the Holocaust was a big lie."
Rio Grande do Sul is one of the wealthiest states in Brazil. It is
home to a sizeable German population and has been the scene of
persisting neo-Nazi and skinhead activities. There are 12,500 Jews in
the state, mostly in the capital. Ellwanger, who is Brazilian-born, is
part of a racist, separatist movement which wants the state to secede
from Brazil in order to isolate itself from other ethnic groups in the
country.
B'nai B'rith International President Tommy P. Baer, a lawyer based in
Richmond, Virginia, hailed the decision. "This critical legal decision
has important ramifications for Brazil and all of Latin America. By
punishing this hatemonger, Brazil is working to meet a standard of
decency which will not tolerate bigotry and hatred."
The world's oldest and largest Jewish organization, B'nai B'rith has
members in 56 countries including Brazil and others throughout Latin
America.
--------- END ---------
Need I say more?
Doc Tavish
---
"Among the Jews who remained in Russia, which then included
Lithuania, Ukraine, and much of Poland, were the founders of
the Russian Bolshevik party." (A History of Ukraine, Michael
Hrushevsky, Yale University Press, 1941, passim)
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
Doc Tavish wrote:
>
> Need I say more?
>
> Doc Tavish
>
Doc T:
Well, you usually 'do' Doc....much like myself. But here's the rub in
this whole business of 'who is saying what to and about whom' rhetoric when
we turn to the German government itself and its own debate and decision in
re the present freedom of expression restrictions contained in the German
Federal Constitution and specifically in re the Holocaust. I know, long
sentence that, but this is of the non freight paying variety and thus the
message takes precedence over grammatical constructions. That said, read on,
if you wish.
As you know, if you read my stuff in AR as I do yours BTW, I'm
presently doing a fictionalized novel piece albeit within a NON fiction
backdrop and referred to era (1933-45) (read: including the focal point of
the Holocaust) and naturally the question of present German law, shall we
say of the 'NON fiction' variety, weighs heavily in the book's theme.
And focus.
As you also know, I am NOT a fan of any censorship whether it be Zundel
and his wares in Canada, the Z grams from, per Ernie, 'some lady in
California' , Hoffmann's bent where he seemingly senses Jews in his soup as
it were, the whole shot so to speak. Thereby, 'I' was curious about the
Germans themselves providing, let's say, non agenda albeit lay it on the
line proof as to the 'why' of these [German] Federal Constitution
'limitations.' Mind you, these are the same folks who have obviously free
and ready access to their own historical archives including those still
preserved 'unit historical archives' (*read: taken when Germany thought they
were going to win!) so when the German government says that they in fact
have placed limitations on freedoms involving 'denying the Holocaust', well
then, the natural Frage is WHY?
The answer of course lies in their own savvy as to what happened! Their
own archives! Their own proofs! Their own documentations. Printed and
filmed/photographic varieties. There own 'witnesses.' And they have stuff
that no doubt I was not able to see at the [then] West German archives circa
the late 60's and early 70's when I lived and worked in Germany so you have
to wonder what they have in toto in what the Volk still term (*if memory of
my Deutschland days still serves) 'unter vier Augen' which is privvy only to
them. And thensome would be my supposition.
Thus, when I presented in AR the cited website a few weeks ago on the GIC
(*German Information Center---New York City----representing the German
government and German Embassy in New York AND the 'official' German
government comment on the Holocaust itself), it was clear that the German
government reasoning was that, in substance, (*please visit the GIC website
to see their exact comment(s)---) they would in fact limit free expression
of DENIAL for a historical event that, in 'their' words, mind you Doc, in
'their' words, the German government itself, says unequivocally, HAPPENED,
and with all the ramifications of that 1933-45 NSDAP era thereby.
Two things here: While I continue to be against censorship and would (and
have!) fought same rather vociferously in the USA when certain muzzlers, ALL
FLAVORS BTW, tried to bulldoze the CDA through and muzzle dissent (among
other things) in both the Internet and Usenet, well, myself and literally
millions of others became mightily vociferous and denounced it. My reasons
for same are also a matter of record. But, here's the thing, while I can and
do become critical of the German government decision to place 'limitations'
on the right of dissent on ANY issue including the Holocaust, I also TAKE
NOTE of the FACT that it is the German government itself who readily accepts
culpability for the Holocaust in that, LITERALLY, it simply can't be denied
IN VIEW OF THEIR OWN EVIDENCE AND PROOFS! That's a notable consideration.
This has NEVER been a debate wherein 'Germany', that is to say, the
government of Germany, maintains any 'it never happened' posture (save for
a small minority where agenda is painfully obvious) and stance but rather
others, indeed the bulk of which are NON German, note that please, NON
German, making the claims that 'it never happened.' That the latter is often
rooted in blatant anti-semitism is so painfully clear that the vision
impaired can 'see' it! Let's just say that sig sign-offs of '88' and the
Hakenkreutz presence more or less responds to 'agenda' quite easily. As does
the typical '....the 'kikes' once again .... .'
Thus, I can legitimately (and do so!) take issue with the German
government's 'limitation' policy as specifically relates to the right of
dissent on ANY issue (*including the so-termed 'Auschwitz Lüge' matter and
legislation) but that does NOT preclude me one iota from reading and
accepting the FACT of PROFESSED German culpability for the Endlosung (*Final
Solution) and obviously the Holocaust itself as historical fact put forth
and admitted to thereby and in re the German government selbst! My issue is
that there should be NO restrictions on Holocaust discussion in terms of
dissent (*that's how martyrs are 'created' with the mantle of the silenced
'aggrieved' and de facto, in my view, garner the instant audience with
sympathetic ear, or eye, if 'only' due to the dissent repression issue) yet
the fact remains, the Holocaust did happen, it 'is' admitted to by the
perpetrating nation via their own 'proofs' readily available!
What interests me is to see folks 'note' the German proofs via the archives,
the German admissions of 'Schuld' (*guilt) for that era, the German
testimonies, the German declaration that 'it is fact' ET AL and yet the
vocal chorus begins from the non privvy to such archives and proofs that
again the perennial 'Jewish influence and machinations' is 'at work' and
again the mantra of, per Joe B and those of the 'never happened'
fraternity, to wit, faked, forged, exaggerated, bribed, lies, tortures et al
ad infinitum ad nauseam.
Thus, in my view, when AGENDA reads either 'Jew baiting' and/or
'anti-semitism' as the CORE of the 'it never happened' rhetoric, well then,
no amount of historical data, fact, admissions, proofs, whatever, will
'ever' suffice because the agenda, ahhhhh, the AGENDA, i.e., anti-semitism,
THAT is what becomes primary which relegates the existing proofs and/or
admissions of guilt to what DID happen as mere pesky interferences to the
primary agenda of anti-semitism versus any care or open the eye LOOK at the
existing data constituting the historical record MOST of which, of interest,
is held by the German government itself! And readily admitted to,
then......during these 'debates' ......and , of particular and noteworthy
cogency even with German reunification , now!
What I saw in Germany, personally, in re the archives dealing with, for
example, just the the Einsatzgruppen 'Aktions' in the USSR commencing June
'41 is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg of what is available 'unter
vier Augen' by the German government itself. And anyone who has ever
researched the Einsatzgruppen much less the horrors of the many KZ's like
A-B et al and their German government held and known evidence is well aware
of the equal and brutal horrors (read: 'murders'....and Dave Irving himself
takes no issue with that word) that were done in the name of Führer, Volk
und Vaterland and the so-termed European 'New Order.' Heydrich meant to
organize genocide it at the '42 Wannsee Konferenz and Himmler said it all at
Posen in '43, '...it's our plan....it's our policy....[ in re] 'die
ausrottung des judischen Volkes.' Resettlement? Tell that to the German
government itself who 'will' take issue with any 'resettlement' arguendo in
favor of the truth.....genocide.
Doc Tony.
Further?
'Wir hatten das moralische Recht, wir hatten die Pflicht gegenüber unserem
Volk, dieses Volk das uns umbringen wollte, umzubringen.'
Himmler, Posen, '43
***(We had the moral right, we had the duty to our people to annihilate the
people who wanted to annihilate us.' Resettlement? Again, sell that
rhetoric to the German government itself for it is THEY who do NOT buy it!
They KNOW what it was and it's rather clear save for those who are, for
whatever reason(s), caught up in the anti-semitic and/or Jew baiting agenda.
That of course, and right here in AR, is certainly something that can
equally be viewed rather readily with varying degrees and doses of
subterfuge therein.
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
In re paragraph seven (7)---I refer specifically to the 'non German'
CITIZEN of Germany itself. The intent of this paragraph is to show that the bulk
of the refutations, that is to say, the 'it never happened' folks, come from
those OUTSIDE of the German nation from NON German CITIZENS. Clearly, there are
German extraction folks in various other countries who in fact do take issue
with the Holocaust but my point was the Germans of Germany and its German
citizens ratio and proportion wise versus the hue and cry of 'it never happened'
folks from various and sundry, German 'extraction' folks included of course, yet
'not' citizens of Germany but rather what we commonly term today, z.b.,
German-American or German-Canadian, usw.
The question then arises that 'why' is it that the 'bulk' of the 'it never
happened' folks comes from those geographical areas 'outside' of Germany? One
would think that if the German Volk AND its government took the posture of, let
us say, the Nuremberg 'nicht Schuldig' (*not guilty), well then, one could say
that the nation almost as a whole 'remains' in denial yet that is clearly not
the case.
The German government then and now admits culpability and, from my own
years 'in situ' and working among the Volk in Deutschland, the 'feedback' if you
will that I got was the semi-chestnut of 'Der Krieg ist vorbei!'---the war is
over and most wished to 'forget' it which is to 'further' say they knew what had
happened to the Jews but, of equal chestnut variety, 'nothing they can say or do
[at the time I was there] could change anything' so what you have is 'it
happened', 'it's over' and, of course, the third chestnut I almost always heard
from those I interviewed and spent time with over the years, the 'not me'
syndrome to almost immediately distance themselves from either knowing anything
about the KZ's and what happened there OR if you could find one who stated
forthwith 'I KNEW PRECISELY what was happening to the Jews' it was then followed
by an equally immediate '....but what could 'I' do about it.....and risk being
placed in a KZ myself?' And so it went.
When I spoke with Albert Speer (1971), a variation of sorts in re the
Endlosung, 'No, I was not informed...' (*my note: it may be that Speer could
fiddle with the words he was not 'officially' informed but there was no question
whatsoever that he 'knew' exactly what was happening to the Jews but simply
closed his eyes to it) but so too, read the rather excellent Gitta Sereny
research and book on Speer for a 'variation to the variation' perspective by
perhaps the one legitimate intellectual of the NSDAP bigwigs. A demeanor BTW and
rather soft spoken well educated charismatic personality,which in my view,
explains why Speer got 20 years on his 'performance' and yet Julius Streicher, a
rather repulsive and openly crude Martin Bormann clone, got the rope. And for
the record, I have always held (*as does Telford Taylor BTW et al) that
Streicher did NOT deserve the rope. Nor, in my view, Rudy Hess with his sentence
of life imprisonment, himself 'out of it' since '41---in more ways then one. And
I've said so in AR with multiple reasons therein. See Dejanews for those
threads----if interested.
Doc Tony
John Morris
22:23:24 GMT, doc_t...@newsguy.com (Doc Tavish) wrote:
<quotes from old posts>
>In article <hoffman-1001...@pm1-23.nidlink.com>,
>hof...@hoffman-info.com (Michael A. Hoffman II) wrote:
> "...now is the time to publicly expose Jewish rabbis who think
> they have the right to tell universities what websites should or
> should not be on a server."
>In short, Mr. Hoffman's puppydog support for free speech in 1995
>was specious nonsense, like much of the man's writing. In truth,
>he is absolutely (see above) opposed to free speech for some
>ethnic groups with which he seems to have difficultlies verging on
>clinical paranoia.
>--
>Nizkor Canada | http://www.nizkor.org
> ------ END ------
</quotes from old posts>
>Comrade McVay I did not see Mr. Hoffman declare deny the rights of
>free speech to rabbis, I see him saying EXPOSE them for trying to
>coerce their brand of "free speech" on universities!
Then read it again. Hoffman's construction "they think they have the
right" denies that they have the right to express an opinion on web
page content.
> Big difference
>Comrade- a damned big difference. You can't appreciate "freedom of
>speech" because of your view:
<quote from old article>
>"I did at that time approve [of] Canadian actions against Zundel
>against Keegstra, ah it was sort of a gut reaction because they
>offended me so deeply I said good shut them up put them in jail do
>what ever it takes, ....no free speech."
>http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=157012965
</quote from old article>
In the same article, Ken McVay wrote:
<quote from old article>
>"Once you let the government start deciding what's correct and what's not
>correct... ah. they may decide its your turn next month and tell you that
>what you're saying is unacceptable..and that's what scare me that scare me
>a lot more than the fact that someone may say something on the Net that
>deeply offend you."
</quote from old article>
I suggest that in future if you want to falsify someone's opinions and
beliefs, that you not give DejaNews references.
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
(which did appear in AR) posted on 12-18-98 which did not appear (*the addendum) in
the AR newsgroup at least per my browser. If the addendum post is duplicated, such
duplication is unintentional. If said reposted addendum still does not appear after
24 hours, no further repost attempt will be made.
sfa...@bigfoot.com
Re: Nizkor & B'nai B'rith Allied in Their Quest to Imprison Those That Doubt
JEWS!
In article <3679E8DD...@capital.net>,
alom...@capital.net wrote:
>
> Two things here: While I continue to be against censorship and would (and
> have!) fought same rather vociferously in the USA when certain muzzlers, ALL
> FLAVORS BTW, tried to bulldoze the CDA through and muzzle dissent (among
> other things) in both the Internet and Usenet, well, myself and literally
> millions of others became mightily vociferous and denounced it. My reasons
> for same are also a matter of record. But, here's the thing, while I can and
> do become critical of the German government decision to place 'limitations'
> on the right of dissent on ANY issue including the Holocaust, I also TAKE
> NOTE of the FACT that it is the German government itself who readily accepts
> culpability for the Holocaust in that, LITERALLY, it simply can't be denied
> IN VIEW OF THEIR OWN EVIDENCE AND PROOFS! That's a notable consideration.
A lie may be buried in the words used. Thus, I draw attention to those words
now.
First, a government is not an "it". It is people, "they". The fact
that you refer to a 1998 group of people by the words "the German
government", and you would refer to a 1940 group of people with the
same words ("the German government") seems to imply the same people
are involved.
Quite obviously, though, they are not the same people. They have no
personal shame to cover up and there is no personal "culpability".
And of course they cannot accept "culpability" for something their
predecessors allegedly did. In other word, their public statements
of accepting "culpability" are an ordinary bureaucrat's lie. There
is not a single individual in the German government now who can
accept any "culpability" for the events of WW II. Trust me.
The second lie is the history of the German government itself. If
you were to take any quotation from the government of German occupied
France and represent it as, "In 1942, France announced …", it would
be a lie. The occupation government of France was not the French
government. Now we could go into all kinds of sophistry about how
genuinely a government speaks for the people in any case, but I doubt
there would be any argument about an genuineness of the pronouncements
from an occupation government. That WHY a country is occupied,
generally speaking: Because if left to its own will, a country would
probably not do what the occupiers wanted it to do. It is the
antithesis of the "will of the people".
So now, when we look at the history of Germany since 1945, we find
what? -- a country occupied by foreign powers. To this day, in
Germany, the allied nations of Britain, France, and the USA (and until
1988, Russia) have active duty military personnel on German soil to
guarantee that Germany carries out the wishes of the occupiers.
Germany is still an occupied nation, and the pronouncements of "the
German government" mean no more than the pronouncements from any
puppet state.
Finally, what is really going on in Germany? Heavy censorship on the
subject of WW II and the Holocaust, to the degree that more than
8,000 people are in prison in Germany right now for speaking out on
what they know to be true about the Holocaust. In other words,
Germany is truly an occupied nation oppressing the Germans citizenry
with enforced doctrines.
The people who really know what took place in those years, if they
were not hanged during the Nuremberg trials, imprisoned during the
"de-Nazification" years, are being imprisoned more recently on the
"hate-speech" pretext and their speech, writings and testimony about
the truth of that history are being forcibly nullified.
If "Holocaust survivors" are to be taken at their word for whatever
they say took place, why aren't the Germans taken at their word?
Talk about he said/she said: He said, but she DIDN'T say because she
had a date with the hangman.
--Slade
-------
Look out, Canada, Zundel has a printing press
and he knows how to use it!
Use your lawyers and aim for his rights!
-------
Is this what they put people in prison for??
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
sfa...@bigfoot.com wrote:
>
>
> If "Holocaust survivors" are to be taken at their word for whatever
> they say took place, why aren't the Germans taken at their word?
>
> --Slade
> -------
>
Slade:
They are! At least with respect to what 'did' happen there. I've lived there
Slade and there has never been any great unifying collective outcry, EVER, that
the German nation then or now is being or has been dutifully 'wronged' or accused
of things they had nothing to do with. In fact, there is a consensus of admission
by the Volk and the German government via their own in-hand damning evidence and
documents.
Hence the recurring and often heard 'not me' syndrome but 'only' in so far as
one not being 'personally' involved when it came to genocide and the KZ's. We
have enough testimony and related evidence from the Volk themselves much less the
surviving victims dating from Nuremberg onward to attest to what happened. And
'why' it happened!
But my point rings clear---If we have the Volk themselves, even 'then',
Eichmann for example, Hoess for example, Ohlendorf for example, Bach-Zelewski for
example, and countless others admit to the crimes, there will 'always' be the
externally generated mantra chorus of 'Tortured! Lied! Bribed! Exaggerated!
Forged! Faked! Manipulated! Threatened! 'Jew controlled' et al ----WHY?----because
the 'agenda' (and as opposed to historical realities) demands it.
Some of the 'it didn't happen' agenda literally reaches proportions of
moronic absurdities when folks like 'engineer turned historian' Arty Butz 'inform'
us that the missing 6 million 'wanted to be considered dead or missing to avoid
resuming previous personal relationships they no longer desired' OR the 'made
himself an engineer' Freddy Leuchter 'informs' us that his 'objective research' at
A-B and Majdanek was completed with the 'spirits of Zundel and Faurisson were with
him every step of the way' plus 30 big ones for 'expenses' OR Harry Barnes telling
the world that the missing 6 million 'died happily and rich in the Bronx, New
York' and 'that's why', per Harry, the Jewish organizations were 'resistant to any
religious affiliation questions' so that, again, per Harry, 'these 6 million
could be hidden within the US population.' OR Carlos Porter informs us, when there
is simply no logical way around the meaning and intent of the Posen speech, that
Himmler was simply 'speaking figuratively' OR 'the typhus did it' as a 'defense'
for taking people and herding them like cattle in KZ's and ghettos, well, it was
the 'typhus' as if to quickly claim and personify the almost gutless 'not me'
syndrome and self serving mantra.
The interesting part of this whole issue still points to a Volk, then and
now, knowing what happened and the great majority admitting to it and---I'll even
grant you----wanting to move on since the Volk of today, the post war folks, were
not personally involved YET that does not remove what historically occurred.
What gets me here is that when you have the perpetrating nation admit what 'was'
and it can ITSELF prove it and know it, there still comes those who will keep
beating the drum in re 'it never happened!'
The next question becomes, what is the motivation for that in the face of
overwhelming evidence both in hand AND from the nation involved in the deed
itself? Seems to me that the 'agenda' points 'away' from the historical record
and 'to' a constant and chronic 'historical' anti-semitism and Jew baiting of the
first chop whether it begins with spam renderings of 'Who killed Christ' to what
Israel or Jews per se allegedly do or did within the last hour. I'm certain you
see the point here.
My interest is 1933-45 and the fact that during said era there was a
historical event known as the Holocaust which has been proven and so acknowledged
by those who have the 'evidence' and 'proofs' within their own hands. Some folks
act as if there exists some sort of grand German nation denial continuum of
growing proportion and heightened vocalizations with mass demonstrations of being
wrongly accused of something that allegedly never happened BUT just the opposite
is the case. Much to the chagrin of those who would PREFER the latter, albeit NON
existing, scenario which would then enhance there Jew baiting cause.
But it's just not there save of course by a very small segment within
Deutschland whose NSDAP ideology roots are all too painfully clear in re the Jews,
so-termed 'Außlanders' usw., yet such is NOT tolerated by either the great
majority of the Volk or the German government and its institutions itself. Twice
in this century the Volk have endured world wars ALBEIT the self initiating
variety with ramifications therein, they want no more!
No more ideological forced fed dogma from cradle onward, no more KZ's of the
'Einziger Macht' or 'Mit Uns' rhetoric and 'those' ramifications of murders and
'superfluous eaters' ...... and no more Stalingrad's either for their present
generation. Where do I get this 'stuff' you ask? I've been there and I've lived
with them. As to restrictions on dissent, we would be in full agreement that I do
'not' feel dissent should be 'legislated' in Germany nor anywhere else yet the
fact remains that the event known as the Holocaust happened and millions were
wantonly slaughtered for reasons of ideology by and for a man, BTW, whose final
conclusion was that his own Volk, after fighting and dying for him and his 'cause'
since '39, were no longer 'worthy' and 'deserve' to perish for they have
'proven' themselves the 'weaker Volk' , and, as he put it, 'the good have already
fallen.'
This was the pay back to 12 years of bellowed 'Heils' for their Messiah which
circa '45, to those left alive and who had 'believed' , gave rise to the
subsequent May, 1945 reflection, comment and assessment, to wit, 'If you seek
his monument, look around.'
Doc Tony
Electric Zen
>If "Holocaust survivors" are to be taken at their word for whatever
>they say took place, why aren't the Germans taken at their word?
Oh, they have been taken at their word.
Paul Blobel said:
I, Paul Blobel, swear, declare and state in evidence:
1. I was born in Potsdam on August 13, 1894. From June 1941 to January
1942 I was the commander of Sonderkommando 4A.
2. After I had been released from this command, I was to report to
Berlin to SS Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich and Gruppenfuhrer Muller, and
in June 1942 I was entrusted by Gruppenfuhrer Muller with the task of
obliterating traces of executions carried out by the Einsatzgruppen in
the East. My orders were that I should report in person to the
commanders of the Security Police and SD, pass on Muller's orders
verbally and supervise their implementation. This order was top secret
and Gruppenfuhrer Muller had given orders that owing to the need for
strictest secrecy there was to be no correspondence in connection with
this task. In September 1942 I reported to Dr. Thomas in Kiev and
passed the order to him. The order could not be carried out
immediately partly because Dr. Thomas was disinclined to carry it out,
and also because the materials required for the burning of the bodies
was not available. In May and June 1943 I made additional trips to
Kiev in this matter and then, after conversations with Dr. Thomas and
with SS and Police Leader Hennecke, the order was carried out.
3. During my visits in August I myself observed the burning of bodies
in a mass grave near Kiev. This grave was about 55 m. long, 3 m. wide
and 2-1/2 m. deep. After the top had been removed the bodies were
covered with inflammable material and ignited. It took about two days
until the grave burned down to the bottom. I myself observed that the
fire had glowed down to the bottom. After that the grave was filled in
and the traces practically obliterated.
4. Owing to the moving up of the front line it was not possible to
destroy the mass graves farther south and east which had resulted from
executions by the Einsatzgruppen. I traveled to Berlin in connection
to this report, and was sent to Estonia by Gruppenfuhrer Muller. I
passed the same orders to Oberfuhrer Achammer-Pierader in Riga, and
also to Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckeln. I returned to Berlin in order to
obtain fuel. The burning of the bodies began only in May or June 1944.
I remember that incinerations took place in the area of Riga and
Reval. I was present at such incinerations near Reval, but the graves
were smaller here and contained only about twenty to thirty bodies.
The graves in the area of Reval were 20 or 30 kms. east of the city in
a marshy district and I think that four or five such graves were
opened and the bodies burned.
5. According to my orders I should have extended my duties over the
entire area occupied by the Einsatzgruppen, but owing to the retreat
from Russia I could not carry out my orders completely....
Nuremberg, June 18, 1947
//signed// Paul Blobel (1)
And Victor Trill said:
I can still dimly recall our detachment executing fifteen to twenty
Jews, including women and four or five children aged between six and
nine months, on the march from Kiev to Poltava....I can no longer
describe the execution area today. I think that I also had to do some
of the shooting, but I know for sure that I did not have to shoot any
children. I still remember today one of the men saying that the
children hung on to life like adults. He must have shot children. (2)
SS-Oberstrumfuhrer August Hafner stated:
...Then Blobel ordered me to have the children executed. I asked him,
"By whom should the shooting be carried out?" He answered, "By the
Waffen-SS." I raised an objection and said, "They are all young men.
How are we going to answer them if we make them shoot small children?"
To this he said, "Then use your men." I then said, "How can they do
that? They have small children as we" This tug-of-war lasted about ten
minutes....I suggested that the Ukrainian militia of the
Feldkommandant should shoot the children. There were no objections
from either side to the suggestion....
I went to the woods alone. The Wehrmacht had already dug a grave. The
children were brought along in a tractor. I had nothing to do with the
technical procedure. The Ukrainians were standing around trembling.
The children were taken down from the tractor. They were lined up
along the top of the grave and shot so that they fell into it. The
Ukrainians did not aim at any particular part of the body. They fell
into the grave. The wailing was indescribable. I shall never forget
the scene throughout my life. I find it very hard to bear. I
particularly remember a small fair-haired girl who took me by the
hand. She too was shot later....The grave was near some woods. It was
not near the rifle range. The execution must have taken place in the
afternoon at about 3:30 - 4:00. It took place the day after the
discussions at the Feldkommandanten....Many children were hit four or
five times before they died. (3)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The testimony of Dr. Albert Widmann on the killings at an asylum at
Moghilev east of Minsk
Albert Widmann testified:
During the afternoon Nebe had the window bricked in, leaving two
openings for the gas hose....When we arrived, one of the hoses that I
had brought was connected. It was fixed onto the exgaust of a touring
car....Pieces of piping stuck out of the holes made in the wall, onto
which the hose could easily be fitted....After five minutes Nebe came
out and said that nothing appeared to have happened. After eight
minutes he had been unable to detect any result and asked what should
be done next. Nebe and I came to the conclusion that the car was not
powerful enough. So Nebe had the second hose fitted onto a transport
vehicle belonging to the regular police. It then took only another few
minutes before the people were unconscious. Both vehicles were left
running for about another ten minutes. (4)
And we could go on all day. But, why bother? You are just a second
rate troll and a Jew hater who knows full well the Holocaust happened.
However, being such a poor excuse for a human being the only way you
can get any attention is to play the fool in the newsgroups.
I kinda feel sorry for you. Just kinda.
(1)Berenbaum, Michael, editor. Witness to the Holocaust. New York:
HarperCollins. 1997. pp. 143-144
(2)Klee, Ernst, Willi Dressen and Volker Riess, ed. The Good Old Days.
New York: The Free Press. 1988. p.63
(3) Ibid. pp. 153 - 154
(4)Kogon, Eugen, Hermann Langbein and Adalbert Ruckerl ed. Nazi Mass
Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas. New Haven:
Yale University Press. 1993. pp. 52 - 53
Richard Phillips
"Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo" wrote:
> sfa...@bigfoot.com wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > If "Holocaust survivors" are to be taken at their word for whatever
> > they say took place, why aren't the Germans taken at their word?
> >
> > --Slade
> > -------
> >
>
> Slade:
>
> They are! At least with respect to what 'did' happen there. I've lived there
> Slade and there has never been any great unifying collective outcry, EVER, that
> the German nation then or now is being or has been dutifully 'wronged' or accused
> of things they had nothing to do with. In fact, there is a consensus of admission
> by the Volk and the German government via their own in-hand damning evidence and
> documents.
>
> Hence the recurring and often heard 'not me' syndrome but 'only' in so far as
> one not being 'personally' involved when it came to genocide and the KZ's. We
> have enough testimony and related evidence from the Volk themselves much less the
> surviving victims dating from Nuremberg onward to attest to what happened. And
> 'why' it happened!
>
> But my point rings clear---If we have the Volk themselves, even 'then',
> Eichmann for example, Hoess for example, Ohlendorf for example, Bach-Zelewski for
> example, and countless others admit to the crimes, there will 'always' be the
> externally generated mantra chorus of 'Tortured!
========================================
Phillips
Are you denying that torture was used?
=======================
> Lied!
=====================================
Phillips
Are you denying that any of the witnesses lied?
==============================
> Bribed!
=======================
Phillips
Are you denying that any of the witnesses were bribed?
=========================
> Exaggerated!
=====================
PHillips
Are you denying that any of the witnesses exaggerated?
========================
>
> Forged! Faked! Manipulated! Threatened! 'Jew controlled' et al ----WHY?----because
> the 'agenda' (and as opposed to historical realities) demands it.
==============================================
Phillips
when you speak of agenda you are speaking of course of the agenda of Revisionists -
yes? Do you also presume to tell us that the Jews did not have an agenda of their own?
Do you profess to be completely unaware that this HOlocaust thing is absolutely
indispensable to them; that it has been used both to justify the Israeli State and to
extort billions from the Us and Germany,
==========================================
==================================================
>
>
> Some of the 'it didn't happen' agenda literally reaches proportions of
> moronic absurdities when folks like 'engineer turned historian' Arty Butz 'inform'
> us that the missing 6 million 'wanted to be considered dead or missing to avoid
> resuming previous personal relationships they no longer desired'
============================================
PHillips
Are you saying that Butz used that to SOLELY account for the missing six million.
Please quote me the passage.
===========================
> OR the 'made
> himself an engineer' Freddy Leuchter 'informs' us that his 'objective research' at
> A-B and Majdanek was completed with the 'spirits of Zundel and Faurisson were with
> him every step of the way' plus 30 big ones for 'expenses'
=================================================
Philllips
Allow me to point out two things you may not be aware of.
(1) Prior to his trip, Fred Leuchater was a Holocaust believer.
(2) It was a strict condition that he was to be paid the money REGARDLESS of what his
findings were - this, precisely to pre-empt insinuations of precisely the sort you
have just made.
ONe also notices that you are very much sunk in credentialitis; yet, strangely, you
have no problem with the pharmacist Pressac (subsequently shown to be a fraud).
============================
> OR Harry Barnes telling
> the world that the missing 6 million 'died happily and rich in the Bronx, New
> York'
===========================================
PHillips
Are you saying that Barnes claimed that this was the not-unhappy fate of ALL of the
six million. Kindly quote the passage.
==============
> and 'that's why', per Harry, the Jewish organizations were 'resistant to any
> religious affiliation questions' so that, again, per Harry, 'these 6 million
> could be hidden within the US population.' OR Carlos Porter informs us, when there
> is simply no logical way around the meaning and intent of the Posen speech, that
> Himmler was simply 'speaking figuratively' OR 'the typhus did it' as a 'defense'
> for taking people and herding them like cattle in KZ's and ghettos, well, it was
> the 'typhus' as if to quickly claim and personify the almost gutless 'not me'
> syndrome and self serving mantra.
===============================================
Philllips
ARe you now claiming that no one died of typhus. If so, I would refer you to the
wel-known Jewish authority who admits that MORE people died of t yhphus than died of
gassing.
=============================
>
>
> The interesting part of this whole issue still points to a Volk, then and
> now, knowing what happened and the great majority admitting to it and---I'll even
> grant you----wanting to move on since the Volk of today, the post war folks, were
> not personally involved YET that does not remove what historically occurred.
> What gets me here is that when you have the perpetrating nation admit what 'was'
> and it can ITSELF prove it and know it, there still comes those who will keep
> beating the drum in re 'it never happened!'
==============================================
Phillips
Are you denying an individual's right to non-concurrence with the majority of his
countrymen? If someone genuinely believes that gassings did not take place, then what
is wrong with his expressing that view?
====================================
>
>
> The next question becomes, what is the motivation for that in the face of
> overwhelming evidence both in hand AND from the nation involved in the deed
> itself?
===========================================
Phillips
Sorry, friend, but your evidence is NOT overwhelming.
=============================
Yale F. Edeiken
> > They are! At least with respect to what 'did' happen there. I've lived there
> > Slade and there has never been any great unifying collective outcry, EVER, that
> > the German nation then or now is being or has been dutifully 'wronged' or
accused
> > of things they had nothing to do with. In fact, there is a consensus of admission
> > by the Volk and the German government via their own in-hand damning
evidence and
> > documents.
> > Hence the recurring and often heard 'not me' syndrome but 'only' in so far as
> > one not being 'personally' involved when it came to genocide and the KZ's. We
> > have enough testimony and related evidence from the Volk themselves much
less the
> > surviving victims dating from Nuremberg onward to attest to what happened. And
> > 'why' it happened!
> > But my point rings clear---If we have the Volk themselves, even 'then',
> > Eichmann for example, Hoess for example, Ohlendorf for example,
Bach-Zelewski for
> > example, and countless others admit to the crimes, there will 'always' be the
> > externally generated mantra chorus of 'Tortured!
> Are you denying that torture was used?
On three named. Absolutely.
If you are stating otherwise provide your proof.
> > Lied!
> Are you denying that any of the witnesses lied?
Are you stating that any of the four named lied.
If so provide your proof.
> > Bribed!
> Are you denying that any of the witnesses were bribed?
Are you stating that any of the four were bribed.
If so provide your proof.
> > Exaggerated!
> Are you denying that any of the witnesses exaggerated?
Of the four named, absolutely.
If you claim otherwise provide your proof.
> > Forged! Faked! Manipulated! Threatened! 'Jew controlled' et al
----WHY?----because
> > the 'agenda' (and as opposed to historical realities) demands it.
> when you speak of agenda you are speaking of course of the agenda of
Revisionists - yes? Do you also presume to tell us that the Jews did not have an
agenda of their own?
Their agenda, of course, was to receive justice. Not a bad agenda.
> Do you profess to be completely unaware that this HOlocaust thing is absolutely
> indispensable to them; that it has been used both to justify the Israeli State and to
> extort billions from the Us and Germany,
Do you profess to be completely unaware that the nazis murdered about
11-12,000,000 people -- about half because they were Jewish.
> > Some of the 'it didn't happen' agenda literally reaches proportions of
> > moronic absurdities when folks like 'engineer turned historian' Arty Butz 'inform'
> > us that the missing 6 million 'wanted to be considered dead or missing to avoid
> > resuming previous personal relationships they no longer desired'
> Are you saying that Butz used that to SOLELY account for the missing six million.
> Please quote me the passage.
Are you stating that Butz does not deny that approximately 6,000,000 Jews
were murdered. Please quote the passage.
> > OR the 'made
> > himself an engineer' Freddy Leuchter 'informs' us that his 'objective research' at
> > A-B and Majdanek was completed with the 'spirits of Zundel and Faurisson were
with
> > him every step of the way' plus 30 big ones for 'expenses'
> ONe also notices that you are very much sunk in credentialitis; yet, strangely, you
> have no problem with the pharmacist Pressac (subsequently shown to be a fraud).
The person sunsequntly found to be a fraud was Leuchter. Who stated
that he had fraudulently misrepresented his credentials.
> > OR Harry Barnes telling
> > the world that the missing 6 million 'died happily and rich in the Bronx, New
> > York'
> Are you saying that Barnes claimed that this was the not-unhappy fate of ALL of
the six million. Kindly quote the passage.
Are you stating that Barnes did not make that statement?
> > and 'that's why', per Harry, the Jewish organizations were 'resistant to any
> > religious affiliation questions' so that, again, per Harry, 'these 6 million
> > could be hidden within the US population.' OR Carlos Porter informs us, when
there
> > is simply no logical way around the meaning and intent of the Posen speech, that
> > Himmler was simply 'speaking figuratively' OR 'the typhus did it' as a 'defense'
> > for taking people and herding them like cattle in KZ's and ghettos, well, it was
> > the 'typhus' as if to quickly claim and personify the almost gutless 'not me'
> > syndrome and self serving mantra.
> ARe you now claiming that no one died of typhus. If so, I would refer you to the
> wel-known Jewish authority who admits that MORE people died of t yhphus than
died of gassing.
And the reason they died of a disease that has in the 20th century killed
less 300 people in the U.S. is?
Come on, Philllips show us your ignorance.
> > The interesting part of this whole issue still points to a Volk, then and
> > now, knowing what happened and the great majority admitting to it and---I'll even
> > grant you----wanting to move on since the Volk of today, the post war folks, were
> > not personally involved YET that does not remove what historically occurred.
> > What gets me here is that when you have the perpetrating nation admit what
'was'
> > and it can ITSELF prove it and know it, there still comes those who will keep
> > beating the drum in re 'it never happened!'
> Are you denying an individual's right to non-concurrence with the majority of his
> countrymen? If someone genuinely believes that gassings did not take place, then
what is wrong with his expressing that view?
He never said anything like that. He said that those who deny the
Holocaust are a lunatic fringe.
> > The next question becomes, what is the motivation for that in the face of
> > overwhelming evidence both in hand AND from the nation involved in the deed
> > itself?
> Sorry, friend, but your evidence is NOT overwhelming.
Because you don't believe it? Nonsense.
It was a good post Doc.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
FitugMix
Subject: Re: Nizkor & B'nai B'rith Allied in Their Quest to Imprison Those
That Doubt JEWS!
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:33:23 GMT
Organization: The Einsatzgruppen
Message-ID: <367ac844....@news.abccom.bc.ca>
References: <3679839d....@enews.newsguy.com>
<3679E8DD...@capital.net> <75e4t4$99q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: newmail.netbistro.com
X-Trace: 18 Dec 1998 13:32:33 -0800, newmail.netbistro.com
PHILNANCY
Are you charging torture was used? If so, cite specific instances and your
evidence.
>
>=======================
>
>> Lied!
>
>=====================================
>
>Phillips
>
>Are you denying that any of the witnesses lied?
Are you charging that witnesses did lie? If so name the witnesses and cite
your evidence.
>
>==============================
>
>> Bribed!
>
>=======================
>
>Phillips
>
>Are you denying that any of the witnesses were bribed?
Are you charging that witnesses were bribed? If so name them and provide your
evidence.
>
>=========================
>
>> Exaggerated!
>
>=====================
>
>PHillips
>
>Are you denying that any of the witnesses exaggerated?
Are you denying that you still beat your wife?
>
>========================
>
>>
>> Forged! Faked! Manipulated! Threatened! 'Jew controlled' et al
>----WHY?----because
>> the 'agenda' (and as opposed to historical realities) demands it.
>
>==============================================
>
>Phillips
>
>when you speak of agenda you are speaking of course of the agenda of
>Revisionists -
>yes? Do you also presume to tell us that the Jews did not have an agenda of
>their own?
>Do you profess to be completely unaware that this HOlocaust thing is
>absolutely
>indispensable to them; that it has been used both to justify the Israeli
>State and to
>extort billions from the Us and Germany,
No, he's speaking of established historical fact, as opposed to the denier
agenda, maintained by a miniscule of Jew hating fringe types, who, like
yourself, are so ignorant of the history of the Holocaust that their attempts
at debate produce questions like those above.
>
>==========================================
>
>==================================================
>
>>
>>
>> Some of the 'it didn't happen' agenda literally reaches proportions of
>> moronic absurdities when folks like 'engineer turned historian' Arty Butz
>'inform'
>> us that the missing 6 million 'wanted to be considered dead or missing to
>avoid
>> resuming previous personal relationships they no longer desired'
>
>============================================
>
>PHillips
>
>Are you saying that Butz used that to SOLELY account for the missing six
>million.
>Please quote me the passage.
Would you know what to do with whatever answer he gives?
>
>===========================
>
>> OR the 'made
>> himself an engineer' Freddy Leuchter 'informs' us that his 'objective
>research' at
>> A-B and Majdanek was completed with the 'spirits of Zundel and Faurisson
>were with
>> him every step of the way' plus 30 big ones for 'expenses'
>
>=================================================
>
>Philllips
>
>Allow me to point out two things you may not be aware of.
>
>(1) Prior to his trip, Fred Leuchater was a Holocaust believer.
Irrelevant. He was stupid and dishonest before he went and after he returned.
>
>(2) It was a strict condition that he was to be paid the money REGARDLESS of
>what his
>findings were - this, precisely to pre-empt insinuations of precisely the
>sort you
>have just made.
But their "spirit" was with him and his report is a laughable fraud.
>
>ONe also notices that you are very much sunk in credentialitis; yet,
>strangely, you
>have no problem with the pharmacist Pressac (subsequently shown to be a
>fraud).
Unlike Freddy, Pressac has not lied about his credentials. And unlike Freddy,
Pressac's work has not been greeted with derision by professionals. And cite
your evidence that Pressac is a fraud.
>
>============================
>
>> OR Harry Barnes telling
>> the world that the missing 6 million 'died happily and rich in the Bronx,
>New
>> York'
>
>===========================================
>
>PHillips
>
>Are you saying that Barnes claimed that this was the not-unhappy fate of ALL
>of the
>six million. Kindly quote the passage.
Are you saying that anyone should take you seriously about the topic of the NG?
Why don't you move south and take up gardening?
>
>==============
>
>> and 'that's why', per Harry, the Jewish organizations were 'resistant to
>any
>> religious affiliation questions' so that, again, per Harry, 'these 6
>million
>> could be hidden within the US population.' OR Carlos Porter informs us,
>when there
>> is simply no logical way around the meaning and intent of the Posen speech,
>that
>> Himmler was simply 'speaking figuratively' OR 'the typhus did it' as a
>'defense'
>> for taking people and herding them like cattle in KZ's and ghettos, well,
>it was
>> the 'typhus' as if to quickly claim and personify the almost gutless 'not
>me'
>> syndrome and self serving mantra.
>
>===============================================
>
>Philllips
>
>ARe you now claiming that no one died of typhus. If so, I would refer you to
>the
>wel-known Jewish authority who admits that MORE people died of t yhphus than
>died of
>gassing.
>
Well -- how long do we have to wait?
>=============================
>
>>
>>
>> The interesting part of this whole issue still points to a Volk, then
>and
>> now, knowing what happened and the great majority admitting to it
>and---I'll even
>> grant you----wanting to move on since the Volk of today, the post war
>folks, were
>> not personally involved YET that does not remove what historically
>occurred.
>> What gets me here is that when you have the perpetrating nation admit what
>'was'
>> and it can ITSELF prove it and know it, there still comes those who will
>keep
>> beating the drum in re 'it never happened!'
>
>==============================================
>
>Phillips
>
>Are you denying an individual's right to non-concurrence with the majority of
>his
>countrymen?
Did he say, or even imply that?
If someone genuinely believes that gassings did not take place,
>then what
>is wrong with his expressing that view?
No. Nor is their anything wrong with those views being challenged when offered
in a public newsgroup on the topic of Holocaust Revisionism. Right?
>
>====================================
>
>>
>>
>> The next question becomes, what is the motivation for that in the face
>of
>> overwhelming evidence both in hand AND from the nation involved in the deed
>> itself?
>
>===========================================
>
>Phillips
>
>Sorry, friend, but your evidence is NOT overwhelming.
Yah, you've convinced me with your persuasive, fact filled rebuttal.
Sorry for jumping in here Doc.
Philip Mathews
"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be ignorant
than would take even a little trouble to acquire it." Samuel Johnson
Kenneth McVay OBC
another duplicitous bonehead wrote:
>Comrade McVay I did not see Mr. Hoffman declare deny the rights of
>free speech to rabbis, I see him saying EXPOSE them for trying to
>coerce their brand of "free speech" on universities! Big difference
>Comrade- a damned big difference. You can't appreciate "freedom of
>speech" because of your view:
I rest my case. You, yourself, now concede that Hoffman wishes to
_deny_ the right of others the right to press their point of view upon
said universities. Thank you for admitting it, even if you didn't wish
to. You, at least, clearly understand Mr. Hoffman's clearly stated
desire to deprive others of their free speech rights by denying them
the right to address issues of concern.
Whadda maroon.
>"I did at that time approve [of] Canadian actions against Zundel
>against Keegstra, ah it was sort of a gut reaction because they
>offended me so deeply I said good shut them up put them in jail do
>what ever it takes, ....no free speech."
>http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=157012965
Oops....you forgot to add the next paragraph, bonehead... was there
some particular reason you chose to remove context? (I have the full
videotape of the CBC Magazine documentary in which that quote appears.
When I have time, I will post some of it to Real Video, so that others
will know what a fraud have tried to perpetrate.
>Above all look at who adds to the money purse of Nizkor:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/funding.html
>
>The Nizkor Project is pleased to announce its cooperative affiliation
>with the League for Human Rights of B'nai Brith Canada. The League is
>a national volunteer organization dedicated to combatting
>antisemitism, racism and bigotry, and to promoting human rights for
>all Canadians.
Note that the League for Human Rights is _not_ listed as "adding to
the money purse of Nizkor," even though our resident bonehead would
have you believe that they do:
>Please print this form and send to:
>
>The Nizkor Project
>c/o
>The League for Human Rights of B'nai Brith Canada
>15 Hove Street
>Toronto, Ontario M3H 4Y8
"Please print this form," as in "anyone who wishes to help must fill
out the form, and send it somewhere... along with their donation." And
where do they send it?
>Please make your donations payable to "The League for Human Rights of
>B'nai Brith Canada," and add the words "Nizkor Trust Fund" to the
>cheque's memo section.
Ah! Prosepective donors are being asked to send their donation to a
specific place. Note that the "specific place" is _not_ providing that
money.If, in fact, no donors send money, then there _is_ no money.
B'nai Brith does not provide my funding.... sorry, Charlie... you just
ain't good enough to make our tuna, even if you do smell fishy.
>Donations over $10.00 will receive a Canadian tax receipt.
>[#0235903-43-13]
>
>We very much appreciate your donations, which assist in the
>development and enhancement of The Nizkor Project website. (Without
>your continuing help, we wouldn't be here.)
"Your donations," as in "anyone can donate." (As in "if you don't, no
one else will..")
>Their brand of Human Rights will eventually be another Tiananenman
>Square except for Western European Gentiles who will be protesting for
>the right of free speech!
The only protest we've seen in this article is Michael Hoffman's, and,
of course, yours, Bonie, in support of denial of free speech to
"rabbis" who wish to exercise that speech right on university
campuses. Yawn.
>As for B'nai B'rith believing in free speech just click this link and
>you'll see how they co-operated in trying to send to prison a person
>that disputed the "Holocaust":
>
>(Remember that B'nai B'rith is Nizkor's money launderer and Jeffrey G.
>Brown has allied himself to both orgs as can easily be proved using
>DejaNews archives! Doc Tavish 12/16/98))
>
>http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=368244916
>"Orwellian Concepts - Nizkor's Own Ken McVay's Posting on Free Speech
>- America Beware The Nizkorites Have a Branch in Texas!"
Nizkor has no "branch" in Texas. Nice to see you can't get anything
right, even something that simple.
>(Excerpt - Click link to read entire document.)
>
>Here is Nizkor's master speaking:
I am Nizkor's "master," and I, and only I, speak for Nizkor....
strange, then, that the article quoted doesn't mention my name, or
Nizkor's. Hardly relevant, given the promise of "great revelations"
from Bonie.....
But let us dismiss all this stuff about Wascally Funding, and get to
the same question Michael Hoffman ^2 ran away from years ago:
If the State of Israel provided 100% of my funding, how would that
impact upon the veracity of Nizkor's documentation?
If the Vatican provided 100% of my funding, how would _that_
impact upon the veracity of Nizkor's documentation?
The short and curlies are simple: it wouldn't make a dmaned bit of
difference.
That's why Hoffie^2 ran from the question when he was faced with it,
along with his sidekick, Wayne McQuire....
--
The Nizkor Project-----------------------http://www.nizkor.org
Holocaust "Revisionism" on the Web: A Failed Enterprise
http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~dario/hist341/intro.html
Anonymous
> From: elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com (Electric Zen)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Nizkor & B'nai B'rith Allied in Their Quest to
> Imprison Those That Doubt JEWS!
> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:33:23 GMT
> Organization: The Einsatzgruppen
> Message-ID: <367ac844....@news.abccom.bc.ca>
> References: <3679839d....@enews.newsguy.com>
><3679E8DD...@capital.net> <75e4t4$99q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> NNTP-Posting-Host: newmail.netbistro.com
> X-Trace: 18 Dec 1998 13:32:33 -0800, newmail.netbistro.com
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:54:45 GMT, sfa...@bigfoot.com wrote:
>If "Holocaust survivors" are to be taken at their word for whatever
>they say took place, why aren't the Germans taken at their word?
Oh, they have been taken at their word.
Electric Zen
> From: elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com (Electric Zen)
[long snip]
Need I say more?
Doc Tavish
Probably. Nothing you had to say in this post addressed the issue at
all.
BTW, don't email me your drivel, Doc. I can read it here.
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
Richard Phillips wrote:
I must say Richard that Joe Bellinger would be duly proud of your ad hoc cloning of one of
his favorite 'rebuttal' tactics generally known as the reverse waffle , to wit, you know
exactly what the point of the arguendo was and is with regard to the the usual mantra
mouthing yet you elect to take a public approach under the guise of arguendo that not only
diminishes you intellectually but de facto cheapens your assessment of the point you
'knew' was being rendered.
I'll be prepared to retract that of course if you concede that you simply could not
'recognize' what I actually 'meant' and thereby I can assume, for the future, that your
gray matter does not match your manner of printed word expression. It's rarely wise to
cheapen yourself publicly with such wordage gymnastics Richard, it's an embarrassment. To
you. For you. The point was the sustained mantra as substitute for substance....and I
believe you knew that. Or should have.
> Phillips
>
> when you speak of agenda you are speaking of course of the agenda of Revisionists -
> yes? Do you also presume to tell us that the Jews did not have an agenda of their own?
> Do you profess to be completely unaware that this HOlocaust thing is absolutely
> indispensable to them; that it has been used both to justify the Israeli State and to
> extort billions from the Us and Germany,
>
>
See above. Same 'applicability' applies albeit an extension of the cited mantra not
previously indicated in my post but, in this case, and thanks to your input, you simply
provide additional examples of the unsolicited variety yet assist my premise in its stated
conclusion(s).
> ==========================================
>
> ==================================================
>
> >
> >
> > Some of the 'it didn't happen' agenda literally reaches proportions of
> > moronic absurdities when folks like 'engineer turned historian' Arty Butz 'inform'
> > us that the missing 6 million 'wanted to be considered dead or missing to avoid
> > resuming previous personal relationships they no longer desired'
>
> ============================================
>
> PHillips
>
> Are you saying that Butz used that to SOLELY account for the missing six million.
> Please quote me the passage.
>
> ===========================
>
These quotes (Butz, Barnes, Porter, Leuchter et al) are a matter of record and have been
cited many times in this newsgroup especially when the discussion centered on the Lipstadt
book as well as IHR quotes (*in re Freddy Leuchter) and the cites were rendered freely and
repeatedly in this newsgroup. Interesting too that you use the word 'solely' which signals
to me that Arty's moronic 'conclusion' finds yet another 'convert' to such 'logic' in one
Richard Phillips.
>
> > OR the 'made
> > himself an engineer' Freddy Leuchter 'informs' us that his 'objective research' at
> > A-B and Majdanek was completed with the 'spirits of Zundel and Faurisson were with
> > him every step of the way' plus 30 big ones for 'expenses'
>
> =================================================
>
> Philllips
>
> Allow me to point out two things you may not be aware of.
>
> (1) Prior to his trip, Fred Leuchater was a Holocaust believer.
>
> (2) It was a strict condition that he was to be paid the money REGARDLESS of what his
> findings were - this, precisely to pre-empt insinuations of precisely the sort you
> have just made.
>
> ONe also notices that you are very much sunk in credentialitis; yet, strangely, you
> have no problem with the pharmacist Pressac (subsequently shown to be a fraud).
>
>
You KNOW my expressed views and opinions in re credentials (*see my post with Doc Dave
(ORAC) on the matter) and I caution you to be prudently careful of the tone you use with
any insinuation that I equate credentials as some sort of 'sole' measure and/or arbiter
of one's gray matter or ability. You know that to be untrue.
The fundamental issue with Leuchter was his fabrications and distortions which the court
(*in his own state concerning his bogus title and claims brought civil litigation against
him much less the Canadian court in the Zundel matter where Leuchter in fact admitted he
was neither licensed as an engineer nor did he have the requisite expertise in engineering
and cogent related fields such as toxicology, physics, ET AL in order to make such, per
the Court noted, 'sweeping' declarations). So too was the independent verifications of
his alleged experiences and expertise which, upon examination, proved to be bogus.
Returning to the matter of alleged 'credentialitis', as you term it, you know me better
then that Richard, as do most folks familiar with my writings, regardless of differences
in re newsgroup issue. Enough said and I trust you will not reach for any escalation on
that particular off-topic meander. If you choose to disregard that however, well, your
prerogative but expect off-topic escalation on what I view as a comment transcending issue
and moving to the realm of 'allegation' versus a point of view in re specific issue at
hand. Your call.
> ============================
>
> > OR Harry Barnes telling
> > the world that the missing 6 million 'died happily and rich in the Bronx, New
> > York'
>
> ===========================================
>
> PHillips
>
> Are you saying that Barnes claimed that this was the not-unhappy fate of ALL of the
> six million. Kindly quote the passage.
>
> ==============
>
>
See above and cited/quoted extensively in AR. One excellent source is the Lipstadt book in
re multiple quotes/cites from Barnes and his printed wares.
> > and 'that's why', per Harry, the Jewish organizations were 'resistant to any
> > religious affiliation questions' so that, again, per Harry, 'these 6 million
> > could be hidden within the US population.' OR Carlos Porter informs us, when there
> > is simply no logical way around the meaning and intent of the Posen speech, that
> > Himmler was simply 'speaking figuratively' OR 'the typhus did it' as a 'defense'
> > for taking people and herding them like cattle in KZ's and ghettos, well, it was
> > the 'typhus' as if to quickly claim and personify the almost gutless 'not me'
> > syndrome and self serving mantra.
>
> ===============================================
>
> Philllips
>
> ARe you now claiming that no one died of typhus. If so, I would refer you to the
> wel-known Jewish authority who admits that MORE people died of t yhphus than died of
> gassing.
>
> =============================
>
>
Issue: Folks herded like cattle in KZ's and ghettos 'solely' for being Jews so that
resulting deaths, be it from Zyklon B, typhus, shooting, illness of any kind, starvation
et al remain the fault of the the keepers. In this case, and specifically concerning the
Jews, what was the 'criminality' -----I mean 'other' then being Jews as the NSDAP viewed
'crime' yet per Himmler at Posen, per 'program and policy.'
> >
> >
> > The interesting part of this whole issue still points to a Volk, then and
> > now, knowing what happened and the great majority admitting to it and---I'll even
> > grant you----wanting to move on since the Volk of today, the post war folks, were
> > not personally involved YET that does not remove what historically occurred.
> > What gets me here is that when you have the perpetrating nation admit what 'was'
> > and it can ITSELF prove it and know it, there still comes those who will keep
> > beating the drum in re 'it never happened!'
>
> ==============================================
>
> Phillips
>
> Are you denying an individual's right to non-concurrence with the majority of his
> countrymen? If someone genuinely believes that gassings did not take place, then what
> is wrong with his expressing that view?
>
> ====================================
>
>
Read my intro remarks.
> >
> >
> > The next question becomes, what is the motivation for that in the face of
> > overwhelming evidence both in hand AND from the nation involved in the deed
> > itself?
>
> ===========================================
>
> Phillips
>
> Sorry, friend, but your evidence is NOT overwhelming.
>
>
To you Richard and those of the 'it never happened' ilk, no amount of evidence will ever
be the proverbial 'convincing' or 'sufficient' because, as I related in the initiating
post, it would be contrary to the Jew baiting and anti-semitic agenda as primary focus
against the realities of the historical record.
In the absence of further 'rebuttal', I'll assume you concur with the remainder of the
above quoted piece Richard and in particulat the first paragraph of this particular
segment which serves to reinforce the rendered premise.
Doc Tony
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
>
**SNIP**
------ END ------
>
> <quote from old article>
> >"I did at that time approve [of] Canadian actions against Zundel
> >against Keegstra, ah it was sort of a gut reaction because they
> >offended me so deeply I said good shut them up put them in jail do
> >what ever it takes, ....no free speech."
> >http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=157012965
> </quote from old article>
>
JOHN MORRIS REPLIES:
> In the same article, Ken McVay wrote:
>
> <quote from old article>
> >"Once you let the government start deciding what's correct and what's not
> >correct... ah. they may decide its your turn next month and tell you that
> >what you're saying is unacceptable..and that's what scare me that scare me
> >a lot more than the fact that someone may say something on the Net that
> >deeply offend you."
> </quote from old article>
>
> I suggest that in future if you want to falsify someone's opinions and
> beliefs, that you not give DejaNews references.
>
> --
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
John:
Excellent rebuttal to the initiating poster John. And succinct. I
enter this particular post response of yours because your rebuttal
serves a dual function: it not only demonstrates the context in toto
with regard to Ken McVay's remarks but, of equal cogence, it shows how
easy it 'is' for 'selected' pieces of one's comment to be manipulated
for various and sundry ends.
Doc Tony
Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo
Just a 'PMFJIH' ('Pardon Me For Jumping In Here' © Mike Stein, AR,
'96)--- KUDOS on your Einstazgruppen research website where 3 of us here
spent most of this weekend doing some research on the NSDAP's #1
Jew-baiter and all around crudeness personified, one Julius Streicher
and his anti-Semitic rag, 'Der Stürmer.' The thing is a comparative
analysis 'focus' wise with the 4 major NSDAP era anti-Semitic films,
'Robert und Bertram' (1939); 'Die Rotschilds' (1940) , 'Der Ewige Jude'
(1940) and 'Jud Süss.' (1940). Full and rather extensive research was
readily available just a click away on 'Der Ewige Jude.' A colleague
will be doing a paper on the latter analysis with regard to textual
NSDAP anti-Semitic references but with a decided focus on NSDAP era MASS
MEDIA (read: propaganda---and as if the NSDAP stuff itself 'outside' of
'produced' mass media propaganda pieces and in toto wasn't enough to
tell the story!)---but the updates and additions (*and the noted website
awards!) made to your website (*at least since I was last there) are
superb from an Einsatzgruppen research perspective.
And yes, I did see, inter alia, Yale Edeiken's 15 part
Einsatzgruppen monograph. Yale, if you're reading this post, I may be
requesting an email permission authorization for the consideration of
[attribution] use of [parts of or in toto] same with, of course, full
author and source attribution and mandated written permission. Hey, the
last thing I need is the ASJA folks or the SPJ telling me 'You should
know better then to even 'think' about not asking first even for a
reviewed synopsis!' (*they (ASJA et al) are 'very' fussy about that (and
as they 'should' be!) but then again, so am I when it comes to
intellectual properties and the 'borrowing' (read: THEFT!) of same under
the guise of 'fair use' without prior permissions. Copyrighted or
otherwise. A button pushing pet-peeve of mine. Amen.
Anyway, Ken, I also want to allude to something I commented on with
regard to my viewing Heydrich's photo at the website some time ago in re
his pictured collar tabs rank. I put this out publicly because I was
asked by another 'friend of a friend' to review the [older] 80's vintage
HBO production of the 'Wannsee Conference' (*in German with English
sub-titles) as to historical accuracy but focused on, of all things, the
technical 'correctness' of uniforms, decorations et al which the actors
were wearing as some 'question' developed about Heydrich's rank. In
short, his rank insignia in the HBO production was bogus! BTW, those of
you reading this and wondering '....what is the Doc going on about
here?'---I'll tell you what---I was amazed to find out folks getting
some fairly heavy 4 figure fees for [a few hours of] reviewing
historical productions PRE-release for various technical aspects.
In one case, I even got the oportunity to offer my input (albeit
gratis, :-(....) when a production company did a historical re-enactment
of the July '44 bomb plot against Hitler. Thousands were spent on a
painstaking reconstruction of that wooden building and its inside area
and great pains were also taken to follow original photographs and items
(like that accordion phone seen in the famous 'post blast' pictures and
'exact' replica of the heavy oaken conference table and massive
supportive legs (*which experts say saved Hitler's life), pictures, et
al, and of course various uniforms and decorations of the actors,
including the bogus Führer selbst who always had, I mean always...two
specific decorations he earned in World War I and was rarely
photographed without them even in his uniform variations...well...want
to try your savvy?
His Iron Cross 1st Class and his Wound Badge..and
then?....right...his 'golden' party badge 'over' those two decorations
and a small Adler und Hakenkreutz...where?...and another 'always in
sight' item....right again...in his tie, about a half-inch down from the
upper fold....and of course the armband.....which BTW, at one
Hakenkreutz hawker and barker website, I noted 2 of the 'whatever''
doing their street corner barking wearing the armband on the WRONG
arm!....go figure...where was Winston when they needed him? )
Anyway, here's the thing, all those bucks for re-enactment
authenticity and someone places period packages of cigarettes (*those
commonly sold in '44 Germany) on the conference table with elaborate
Hakenkreutz adorned and fairly large 'group' ashtrays. Buzzzzz!
Absolutely no way Bubba! Smoking was 'never' permitted in the presence
of the Führer, no exceptions made for anyone, NOR the aroma of tobacco
which Himmler's men would check out and, if present, ventilate
immediately, 'prior' to the Führer's arrival to 'any' conference area or
room where he was to spend any period of time. The appearance of those
cigarette packages, period era clones or not, killed the re-enactment
authenticity totally. Sidebar: He did set aside a ventilated room at the
Berghoff for those of the 'puff need' (*like yours truly :-(...) but
never in his presence and that included Eva who herself was a smoker.
Switching back to Heydrich. At the time of the Wannsee Konferenz,
20 January 1942, Heydrich was in fact an Obergruppenführer. However, in
the HBO production, while Heydrich is shown wearing such rank on both
collar tabs, unfortunately that particular DESIGN of rank did NOT COME
OUT until 7 APRIL of 1942! In effect, the two white 'pips' under the 3
acorn 'branches' only came out in April '42, 3 months 'after' Wannsee,
whereas prior to that, and in January '42, the rank of Obergruppenführer
had only a 'single' white 'pip' under the 3 acorn 'branches.'
Re-switching in re your mention of Mike (Michael Berenbaum)---I
would also highly recommend his 'The World Must Know' (ISBN
0-316-09134-0)---240 pages of excellent research and heavy bibliographic
material with clear USHMM focus yet expanded with on-loan pieces (*as
photographed and/or cited) from various world museums and historical
archive centers, including both governmental and private sources. So
too, one is advised to have a strong inner constitution to view some of
the archive pictures of the era contained in the work (*oversized
softcover) which additionally responds, BTW, to those who ask 'where are
the burning pits?', 'is that possible?', 'were children 'really' shot?',
'was Zyklon B used to kill people? ...I thought it was just for
'fumigation' and 'lice control.' Right. It's there. Graphically.
Extremely graphic at certain times but well documented.
I believe Mike still continues his academic affiliation with
Georgetown University and USHMM involvement although I've heard there
have been some management changes at USHMM (???) as to specific title in
re Project Director OR 'some' kind of a internal change but I'm not
sure, as yet anyway, of the specifics. If you know, please let me know.
Mike's work however is excellent and the bibliographical notes read like
a who's who of world class researchers, historians and other respected
writers of the era and who savvy the era and its historical significance
and implications for 'all' flavors of folks. The keepers as well as the
kept as it were.
Whew! I know. But, to any detractors, you made it anyway!
Doc Tony
Mcknife
sfa...@bigfoot.com wrote:
> alt.revisionism
> Re: Nizkor & B'nai B'rith Allied in Their Quest to Imprison Those That Doubt
> JEWS!
>
> <snip>
> Finally, what is really going on in Germany? Heavy censorship on the
> subject of WW II and the Holocaust, to the degree that more than
> 8,000 people are in prison in Germany right now for speaking out on
> what they know to be true about the Holocaust.
<snip>
Whoa. 8,000 people are in prison in Germany for speaking about the Holocaust?
Who are these people, and do any of them have personal knowledge?
Yale F. Edeiken
You have my permission.