WHY KEEP FIGHTING ABOUT IT?
Jeneva Storme
I've been reading this newsgroup for the last couple of weeks, and I
have to respond. I'm not declaring sides, so you can't label me as a
Holocaust promotor or denier. What I would like to say is that all
this wrangling back and forth and trying to prove or disprove the past
is accomplishing absolutely nothing. Reading the posts from both
sides, I am overwhelmed by the intensity of hateful feelings, and the
rigidity of thought involved. None of you are going to change the
minds of any of the others. You each seem to be locked into your own
mindset, and nothing short of a religious experience is going to shift
you. But that's not the point. The point is this: Whether the
Holocaust can be proven or not is irrelevant. What each of you intend
to do with your own lives, and with the lives of those around you, IS
relevant. There was a war. People on both sides died. People on
both sides did things that were cruel. What are we going to do NOW?
Are you defending the Holocaust so that you can feel superior to
someone, or oppress someone? Then stop it. Are you denying the
Holocaust so that you can justify racist violence, or racial
superiority? Then stop it. Examine your own reasons and intentions,
and decide if your life is worthwhile without having to insult,
degrade and oppress other people, regardless of their race, culture or
mindset. I don't believe that people are inherently evil. When they
are evil, they are doing it on purpose. I believe people are
inherently selfish and short-sighted. This may have been advantageous
when we were tiny tribes scattered all over, but now we are a global
community, like it or not. There are too many of us for us to be able
to pretend that we don't need to get along if the entire human species
is going to survive. If you need to justify your own hateful actions
by supporting or denying the actions of those in the past, maybe your
intentions need to be reevaluated. If your actions reflect kindness
and compassion, then it doesn't matter that evil things may or may not
have been done in the past. What you do now is what is really
important. Stop hating each other. You're wasting valuable time and
energy that could be better put to actually making this world a better
place for all of us. No individual should be judged on the basis of
what race, culture or country he comes from. He should only be judged
by his own actions, and the content of his soul.
Shade and Sweet Water, Jeneva L. Storme
Doc Tavish
Jeneva you are misunderstanding all of us! This is how we show our love
toward each other. I am a "Nazi" and I love Jews especially their women.
See I am not ashamed to admit that I fancy Jewish maidens! Even Adolf
Hitler had two Jewish maidens in his inner circle. Leni Riefenstahl who
filed the greatest German Epic of the day- Triumph of the Will and a
Jewess known as Frau Troost. Troost was known to have gotten angry with
Hitler in public and gave him a thorough tongue lashing. People thought
for sure Troost was going to disappear BUT the next day Adolf showed up
at her art haus with some flowers and carried on like absolutely nothing
happened! I'd swear this is true. Jeneva you must accept that we do
really love each other and it is just as the Mills Brothers always zing:
You Always Hurt The One You Love! Come back Little Sara, come back Miss
Laura oh but my heart pales away- tis a nightingale that sings and as
the raven once said: "Doc's it's nevermore". Yes but my favored Jewess
maidens have spurned me and broke my heart to thousands of pieces and to
think Valentine's Day is just four days away- oh such sorrow, if I can
only make it till tomorrow and what of Annie? Oh such dear Aryan maiden
my heart dost pine BUT to a fair maiden I'd be just a Nazi swine! Oh the
humanity!
Doc Tavish In tears and Johann and Wolfgang {plus Bruno} they are
wailing too!
I may even send Andrew Mathis, Jeffrey G. Brown, and Chuck Ferree a
Valentine too!
They may be expecting cheesecake photos of the Bavarian Babes but they
will get a JPG photo of Bruno! I almost forgot Spammy and Joel Rosenberg
too! They'll like a picture of Bruno I know!
ChuckF2323
Chuck Ferree wrote:
My reasons are numerous. The main one, I suppose is; I can't be another
by-stander to a bunch of lies. As a Holocaust witness, while in the
service of my country, during WW-II, it's intolerable for me to hear, or
read lies about history, especially from a bunch of ignorant people, who
make foolish statements without ever offering proof.
Another reason is, the Holocaust was such a horrible event, it just can't
be allowed to just be brushed aside, either by deniers, so-called
revisionists, or people like you, who seem to just wish it would go away.
It will not go away.
We are dealing here with bigots, racists, anti-semites and others who have
as their goal, placing blame on innocent victims...millions of innocent
victims of some of the most terrible humans who existed in modern times.
WW-II changed the world forever. Hitler and his Nazis, perpetrated
cruelties too brutal to imagine. Over 30 million people died as a result
of WW-II, maybe even more than that horrific number. Try to imagine
millions of innocent men, women, children, and babies, shot by "ordinary"
men. Hours and hours of rounding Jews up from their beds, from their homes
from their villages, collecting all their belongings, stealing everything
they ever owned, and systematically, making these people dig their own
graves, large, deep, trenches, and shooting them, by the thousands.
Without mercy, without pity. Blowing brains of innocent people all over
each other and even themselves.
That's just part of the Holocaust. The Germans set up over a thousand
concentration camps, imprisoned millions of people, Jews and others,
worked them to death, starved them to death, gassed them to death, let
them die miserable deaths from neglect. And that's just a part of the
Holocaust. Now those people who choose to deny that any of this happened,
are for the most part evil people, perhaps even as evil as those who
murdered so many innocents. They want to persuade the world that none of
these terrible things really happened. Well, these terrible things did
happen. So you take a seat and watch the debate, or do something else,
while those of us who have no intention of just dropping the subject,
carry on our winning battle against those who lie, and deny.
Chuck Ferree
Subject: WHY KEEP FIGHTING ABOUT IT?
From: Jeneva Storme <jst...@ewu.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:09:10 -0700
I've been reading this newsgroup for the last couple of weeks, and I
have to respond. I'm not declaring sides, so you can't label me as a
Holocaust promotor or denier. What I would like to say is that all
this wrangling back and forth and trying to prove or disprove the past
is accomplishing absolutely nothing. Reading the posts from both
sides, I am overwhelmed by the intensity of hateful feelings, and the
rigidity of thought involved. None of you are going to change the
minds of any of the others.
Chuck> Maybe, maybe not, but on the other hand, many people do not know
much about history, and this is one way to learn.
You each seem to be locked into your own
mindset, and nothing short of a religious experience is going to shift
you. But that's not the point. The point is this: Whether the
Holocaust can be proven or not is irrelevant.
Chuck> No it is not irrelevant. To you maybe. But not to me.
What each of you intend
to do with your own lives, and with the lives of those around you, IS
relevant. There was a war. People on both sides died. People on
both sides did things that were cruel. What are we going to do NOW?
Are you defending the Holocaust so that you can feel superior to
someone, or oppress someone? Then stop it. Are you denying the
Holocaust so that you can justify racist violence, or racial
superiority? Then stop it. Examine your own reasons and intentions,
and decide if your life is worthwhile without having to insult,
degrade and oppress other people, regardless of their race, culture or
mindset. I don't believe that people are inherently evil. When they
are evil, they are doing it on purpose. I believe people are
inherently selfish and short-sighted. This may have been advantageous
when we were tiny tribes scattered all over, but now we are a global
community, like it or not. There are too many of us for us to be able
to pretend that we don't need to get along if the entire human species
is going to survive. If you need to justify your own hateful actions
by supporting or denying the actions of those in the past, maybe your
intentions need to be reevaluated. If your actions reflect kindness
and compassion, then it doesn't matter that evil things may or may not
have been done in the past. What you do now is what is really
important. Stop hating each other.
Chuck> It isn't a matter of hatred. It's a matter of doing something which
needs to be done. Maybe it wouldn't have happened the way it happened, if
by-standers had spoken out. Done something to stop it, or, died trying.
You're wasting valuable time and
energy that could be better put to actually making this world a better
place for all of us.
Chuck> Plenty of other people are working to make the world a better place
for all of us. We are doing something to make the world a better place for
all of us. What contribution can you think of, that a person makes by
lying about historical facts? By racists, bigots, and others who are very
busy promoting hatred. That's what these deniers do. Promote hatred. For
Jews, for Black people, for many others, who are different than these
bigots, racists and haters want them to be.
No individual should be judged on the basis of
what race, culture or country he comes from. He should only be judged
by his own actions, and the content of his soul.
Chuck> Agreed. And the actions tell the story, and the contents of their
souls are revealed.
Chuck Ferree
Shade and Sweet Water, Jeneva L. Storme
LET ANY DOUBTER, IN ALL THE GENERATIONS TO COME, CONTEMPLATE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO LIVE IN A WORLD DOMINATED BY HITLER, THE JAPANESE WARLORDS, OR ANY OTHER CRUEL DICTATOR OR DESPOT. Ira C. Eaker Commanding General, United States Air Force
Jeneva Storme
To David Gehrig:
Your response was compelling and eloquent. I appreciate your taking
the time to come forth and give us your point of view. And I agree
with you. I myself am very interested in making sure that the sort of
things that were allowed to happen during WWII are not allowed to
happen again, and that means learning about what happened. I didn't
even know to what "The Holocaust" referred until after high school.
From what I have learned since then, I find it difficult to believe
that the whole thing was a hoax, that everybody who testified was
coached to lie, and that the survivors are somehow benefiting from a
big "Jewish Conspiracy".
On the other hand, I have not been to any of the camps, nor have I
seen any physical evidence either supporting or denying the details of
what happened. I, too, wish that all those photos of piles of dead
bodies and artifacts made from human beings were faked somehow. I've
seen the "altered" photos of the camps on the 'Net, but who's to say
they weren't altered by the one claiming they were false? How am I to
know, based only on the evidence at hand? And even if they were, that
would not negate all other evidence that the Nazis performed these
atrocities. Even if there were no "master plan" to exterminate the
entire Jewish race and culture, that would not negate the horrible
things done to the people in those ghettos and camps. There is no
excuse for condemning an entire race or culture. No individuals
should have to suffer so for the actions, real or imagined, of other
people.
I guess I can be said to be on one side now, since my declaration
otherwise was only to allow honesty in the responses, and to prevent
undue prejudice based on my "leanings". I still maintain that civil
discourse is possible and necessary in order that people can actually
learn and understand one's viewpoint without having to sort through
all the spitting and hissing from both sides of the issue. Otherwise
this newsgroup is NOT educating anybody, except in how to yell at
people with whom you disagree. If we on "this" side maintain
composure in the face of crudity and violence on "that" side, then our
words will carry that much more weight.
Annie Alpert
david gehrig wrote:
>
> I've been thinking about your note since I saw it yesterday, and I've
> decided to de-lurk and respond.
David, I really appreciated your well thought out essay. You have hit the nail on the
head--the heart of Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism. Standing aside and permitting
slurs, half-truths and out-right fabrications to pass without challenge is
inconscencible. Also, the idea that millions of human beings can concoct and carry out
a demonic plot to trich the entire world into beleive a non-existent genocide occurs is
simply ridiculous. You can't get enough people to go in on a decent surprise party these
days, let alone plot world domination.
>
> The problem with denying the Holocaust is this: to make the "holocaust
> hoax" theory work, you've also got to accept the idea that there is this
> all-powerful international Jewish conspiracy which has worked endlessly
> for half a century planting truckful after truckful of evidence, in
> every government and every newspaper, and that not a single Jewish
> person (out of the millions involved) has ever dropped out of the
> conspiracy and come clean. What are the odds of that?
>
> In other words, it's the saying that the Jews (as a group) have
> committed the greatest fraud in history, infinitely more intricate,
> sophisticated, and complicated than anything military intelligence did
> during the cold war or WWII, and have kept it going much, much longer.
> But if the Jews were already powerful enough to do such an amazing
> thing, in every country in the world, they would also be too powerful to
> NEED to.
>
> You have to ask yourself: which is more likely, that (a) all the
> professional historians are wrong, a handful of amateur historians are
> right, and there's a conspiracy out there that all the Jews in the world
> are involved in but makes no sense, or (b) the "revisionists," generally
> a batch of amateurs who don't do a very good job hiding their bias
> against Jews, are wrong?
>
> There is more physical, hard, evidence that the Holocaust happened than
> there is that, say, Abe Lincoln was assassinated. If the revisionists
> were really seeking nothing-but-the-truth, there are a thousand things
> in our history books with considerably less evidence. Why do they pick
> the Holocaust?
>
> If somebody told you he was interested in all aspects of the history of
> Christianity, for example, and then talked obsessively about nothing but
> the Spanish Inquisition and ignored the rest, then sooner or later you'd
> conclude that that somebody isn't interested in history nearly so much
> as he's interested in bashing Christianity while pretending to "seek
> truth." Well, in the same way it's not hard to see after a while that
> revisionism is an attempt to put a nice face on a certain nasty bigotry.
> And if you've read this group enough, you can see that even the "nice"
> face isn't nice.
>
> The reason that we Jews get so angry might best be explained with
> another number, one that doesn't get publicized so frequently. Everybody
> knows that six million died. But out of how many? That six million was
> out of a total world Jewish population of about eighteen to twenty
> million. In other words, the Nazis systematically killed about one out
> of every three Jews in the ENTIRE WORLD. One out of three. Man, woman
> and child. Next time you're in a crowded room, count off the people like
> this: "One, two, murdered. One, two, murdered." Then you'll start to see
> where we're coming from.
>
> And this happened fairly recently, too. I'm only thirty-four, still a
> pretty young guy. Yet fewer days passed between the beginning of the
> Holocaust and the day I was born than passed between the day of my birth
> and today. For a people who trace their history back three thousand
> years, the Holocaust was only yesterday.
>
> That's why its's such a big deal to us. The Jewish people suffered a
> wound both extremely deep and recent. If something similar had happened
> to the people of your background -- whatever it is -- and then some
> self-proclaimed "experts" told you (a) it didn't happen and (b) your
> group is perpetrating the greatest fraud in history by trying to tell
> people it did, and (c) a lot of other garbage against your people while
> they're at it, wouldn't you have trouble controlling your anger too?
>
> I've been reading this newsgroup for a while too, and have noticed that
> both sides are pretty angry. But I have also noticed these:
>
> One side of the argument is addicted to pseudonyms; you're never quite
> sure who's who. (Neither are they, judging from the number of times one
> of them has answered his own posts.)
> One side of the argument makes sweeping claims about an entire ethnic
> group: that they're all working together on a centrally controlled crime
> enterprise that puts anything else in the world to shame.
> One side of the argument ignores any Jewish testimony -- just chucks it
> right out -- unless there's something in it which can be twisted to look
> like support for their side. Ditto with German testimony, Russian
> testimony, Soviet testimony, and -- most interestingly -- American
> testimony, testimony of American soldiers who liberated some of the
> camps.
> Conservative historians support the Holocaust; moderate historians
> support the Holocaust; liberal historians support the Holocaust; yet the
> Holocaust deniers all come from the same very-very-far-right place on
> the political spectrum, and none of them has been able to hide deep
> anti-Jewish bias for long.
>
> No, I don't think this newsgroup always shows the Jews at their best.
> But the next time you see one of them flame out, just remember: one,
> two, murdered. One, two, murdered.
>
> It's tempting to root for the underdog, but sometimes the underdog is
> the underdog for a reason. Sometimes the conventional wisdom is the
> conventional wisdom because it's right. For every time the experts are
> more or less agreed on something which turns out to be wrong, there are
> a thousand cases where the experts do agree completely and are right.
> The existence of the Holocaust is one of the latter.
>
> Why is this debate going on here but not in any university history
> department? There are two possible explanations. One, of course, is that
> the Jews have an iron grip and don't allow it. (The "Darth Vader"
> theory, which demands that you accept the Jews as an Evil Empire.) The
> other is that professional historians can recognize flat-out nonsense
> when they see it and don't feel they need to waste their time on it, any
> more than professional astronomers feel the need to debate evidence pro
> and con a flat earth or the supposedly "faked" moon landing, or
> mathematicians feel an ethical need to engage in endless "debate" with
> cranks who think two plus two equals five (which, as the old joke says,
> it does, for sufficiently large values of two).
>
> Ask yourself: who is most likely to get historical facts right? The
> pros. Are they perfect? No, but they're considerably less likely to give
> you an earful of sewage than some random fool (myself included) on the
> net.
>
> And what do the pros say? They say it's no contest.
>
> But newsgroups don't work that way. Any old dolt (myself included) can
> drop in the most awful lies, have my bluff called, stall and
> counter-attack, go around in circles, and end up producing the same
> volume of material as those who really know what they're doing. So you
> can't just count the number of responses from either side to see who's
> right.
>
> I, too, wish that the Holocaust was a fraud. I'd like to believe that
> the millions of European Jews were not murdered, but just sent somewhere
> else, where they're living happily and raising grandchildren. I wish
> that were true. But unlike the revisionists, I recognize that history
> doesn't listen to my wishes, and that I can't twist history to make it
> agree with my wishes.
--
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
And my own web page: http://www.ccnis.net/~miasaura
Annie Alpert
Annie Alpert
Mark Van Alstine
> I've been thinking about your note since I saw it yesterday, and I've
> decided to de-lurk and respond.
...And did so quite impressively, I must say!
[an excellent post snipped for brevity]
Mark
posted/e-mailed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annie Alpert
I agree that civil discourse is the only way to approach this issue.
The Holocaust is an emotionally charged issue, even without the added
drama of anti-Semitic bias and denial. It's important to take the high
road every time. I began my journey here knowing nearly nothing about
the subject, and with an open mind. I have studied and learned and came
to the conclusion that denying the Holocaust is simply a form of
anti-Semitism and without basis in rational thought. This is true
whether you focus solely on one aspect--like the gas homicidal
chambers--or broadly blame the victims or even minimize the severity.
The way to prevent further ocurances of genocide is education. We can't
educate effectively if we are pointing fingers and calling names.
Annie Alpert
Here is a response to David Gehrig's note from BS.ORG on the
revis...@C2.net mailing list:
Hey, you two. Will you pls stop posting these stupid idiot talmudic
lies of
the six millions on this list. Nobody with a bit of brain and a
calculator
dont believe this rubbish any more. We are sick hearing the same old
lies
and lament of the Jews day in and day out.
You have not the slightest proof for all these allegations and you know
damn
well the the law of nature works for the jews too. Trick and cheat
people in the
brazilian rain forrest, but pls leave us with the trash of yours and the
endless
laments in peace.
Come back to this list when you have concrete proof for all that and
dont quote
mentally deranged people like Wiesenthal and Wiesel and the rest.
Besides no
Revisionist ever said that the holocaust did not happen. Germans had a
holocaust
in Hamburg and Dresden too, but the dont lament all day long and bleed
and milk
the allieds dry. Why dont you start quoting correct figures like about
44.000
Jews have died in Auschwitz and there is proof for that. You have none
whatoever
just crazies who quote that people burned in ditches and rubbish like
like that.
If you insist posting lies and confusing things, go and open your own
maillist.
Ther you can post not 6 but 15 or 20 Mill or whatever figure you like.
Or do you
prefer the Talmudic figure in Gittin 57b where the Romans burned four
Billions Jews.
Did they import them from Sirius, Aldebaran or Orion ?
END NOTE
david gehrig wrote:
>
> I've been thinking about your note since I saw it yesterday, and I've
> decided to de-lurk and respond.
>
--
Jubilation T. Cornpone
On {Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:04:57 -0500}, {Annie Alpert <mias...@ccnis.net>} wrote
in {alt.revisionism}:
[AG the goose]
>Here is a response to David Gehrig's note from BS.ORG on the
>revis...@C2.net mailing list:
>
>Hey, you two. Will you pls stop posting these stupid idiot talmudic
>lies of
>the six millions on this list. Nobody with a bit of brain and a
>calculator
>dont believe this rubbish any more. We are sick hearing the same old
>lies
>and lament of the Jews day in and day out.
Stop reading the newsgroup.
>You have not the slightest proof for all these allegations and you know
>damn
>well the the law of nature works for the jews too. Trick and cheat
>people in the
>brazilian rain forrest, but pls leave us with the trash of yours and the
>endless
>laments in peace.
As you are not jewish, are you now claiming to be an Talmud expert?
Although all the holohuggers have denied the claims on the Talmud, not
one has given the slightest indication of being an expert on the matter. Are
you going to be the first to do so?
=====
Who was it who changed a rout into an utter defeat?
Anthony Sabatini
Annie Alpert <mias...@ccnis.net> wrote in article
<3301CB...@ccnis.net>...
[snip]
> I agree that civil discourse is the only way to approach this issue.
> The Holocaust is an emotionally charged issue, even without the added
> drama of anti-Semitic bias and denial. It's important to take the high
> road every time. I began my journey here knowing nearly nothing about
> the subject, and with an open mind. I have studied and learned and came
> to the conclusion that denying the Holocaust is simply a form of
> anti-Semitism and without basis in rational thought.
Good God! What a load of doo-doo! When will the disgusting shield of
"anti-Semitism" be dropped? What makes you think "denying the Holocaust is
simple a form of anti-Semitism"? What makes you think that Jews are on
everyone's mind? Why is this damned term literally strewn about all the
time? Can it be due to the damnable stigma attached to it? Can it be that,
once firmly affixed to an opponent, he or she is forever looked upon with
crooked eyes, and faintly assumed to be lying about everything? Can it be
that this malignant and grossly misused term is nothing more than a smear
tactic? Surely not!?!
Mrs. Alpert, please define "anti-Semitism" for us. And please explain
whether or not an "anti-Semite" is, more often than not, looked upon as a
liar. Why or why not? Then, please tell us why this term is abused as much
as it is. Lastly, please list some terms which follow the same lines as
this hateful word. Thank you.
> This is true
> whether you focus solely on one aspect--like the gas homicidal
> chambers--or broadly blame the victims or even minimize the severity.
> The way to prevent further ocurances of genocide is education. We can't
> educate effectively if we are pointing fingers and calling names.
[.sig snipped]
Lu...@sprynet.com
Reading the posts from both
sides, I am overwhelmed by the intensity of hateful feelings, and the
rigidity of thought involved. None of you are going to change the
minds of any of the others.
I dont think it is only a battle of ideas. It is truly is a stand against something of the most abject
and purest evil.
The angels of the beast in war against innocent human beings.
Individuals propsing and saying the utter dross that prevails in this ng are considered
demented and ill. Parties and nations of these people are then making gas ovens.
I realize taking away a persons humanity is the first step right out the nazis handbook but....
what the hell....
LOCK AND LOAD!!!!
LUMPY
Hitler burns in the hell of Israels God.
SOG
Don't worry Lumpy, the Nazi's have had their day. The US Govt., the JDL
& other groups will insure that day is over. Let them rant their
stupidity, and kick em in the butt whenever possible.
SOG
SOG
We are certainly on your peanut sized min A. That is if you have one at
all.
In my youth father Anthony replied to the youth I feared it my injure
the brain...but since I discoverd that I had none, I do it again &
again....Paraphrase & modifying Lewis Carrol
SOG
Mike Curtis
"Anthony Sabatini" <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
>Annie Alpert <mias...@ccnis.net> wrote in article
><3301CB...@ccnis.net>...
>
>[snip]
>
>> I agree that civil discourse is the only way to approach this issue.
>> The Holocaust is an emotionally charged issue, even without the added
>> drama of anti-Semitic bias and denial. It's important to take the high
>> road every time. I began my journey here knowing nearly nothing about
>> the subject, and with an open mind. I have studied and learned and came
>> to the conclusion that denying the Holocaust is simply a form of
>> anti-Semitism and without basis in rational thought.
>
>Good God! What a load of doo-doo! When will the disgusting shield of
>"anti-Semitism" be dropped?
Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
> What makes you think "denying the Holocaust is
>simple a form of anti-Semitism"?
Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
> What makes you think that Jews are on
>everyone's mind?
Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied. He also might explain why
Ms. Alpert was accused of being Jewish (because of her name was the
reason) and then kicked off this particular list.
> Why is this damned term literally strewn about all the
>time? Can it be due to the damnable stigma attached to it?
Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
> Can it be that,
>once firmly affixed to an opponent, he or she is forever looked upon with
>crooked eyes, and faintly assumed to be lying about everything? Can it be
>that this malignant and grossly misused term is nothing more than a smear
>tactic? Surely not!?!
>
Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
[snip]
Mr. Sabatini must have missed this part of her message.
>> This is true
>> whether you focus solely on one aspect--like the gas homicidal
>> chambers--or broadly blame the victims or even minimize the severity.
>> The way to prevent further ocurances of genocide is education. We can't
>> educate effectively if we are pointing fingers and calling names.
>
Mike Curtis
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)
Anthony Sabatini
Mike Curtis <mi...@aimetering.com> wrote in article
<33145b77...@news.zilker.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini" <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
>
> >Annie Alpert <mias...@ccnis.net> wrote in article
> ><3301CB...@ccnis.net>...
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> I agree that civil discourse is the only way to approach this issue.
> >> The Holocaust is an emotionally charged issue, even without the added
> >> drama of anti-Semitic bias and denial. It's important to take the high
> >> road every time. I began my journey here knowing nearly nothing about
> >> the subject, and with an open mind. I have studied and learned and
came
> >> to the conclusion that denying the Holocaust is simply a form of
> >> anti-Semitism and without basis in rational thought.
> >
> >Good God! What a load of doo-doo! When will the disgusting shield of
> >"anti-Semitism" be dropped?
>
> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
> > What makes you think "denying the Holocaust is
> >simple a form of anti-Semitism"?
>
> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
> > What makes you think that Jews are on
> >everyone's mind?
>
> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied. He also might explain why
> Ms. Alpert was accused of being Jewish (because of her name was the
> reason) and then kicked off this particular list.
Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
I have no idea why "Ms. Alpert was accused of being Jewish" nor why she was
"kicked off this particular list". Frankly, I don't care why.
> > Why is this damned term literally strewn about all the
> >time? Can it be due to the damnable stigma attached to it?
>
> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
> > Can it be that,
> >once firmly affixed to an opponent, he or she is forever looked upon
with
> >crooked eyes, and faintly assumed to be lying about everything? Can it
be
> >that this malignant and grossly misused term is nothing more than a
smear
> >tactic? Surely not!?!
> >
>
> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
> [snip]
>
> Mr. Sabatini must have missed this part of her message.
>
> >> This is true
> >> whether you focus solely on one aspect--like the gas homicidal
> >> chambers--or broadly blame the victims or even minimize the severity.
> >> The way to prevent further ocurances of genocide is education. We
can't
> >> educate effectively if we are pointing fingers and calling names.
> >
I did not "miss it". What difference does it make? Please explain.
Now Mr. Curtis will explain why he snipped the following (among other text)
from my post:
"Mrs. Alpert, please define "anti-Semitism" for us. And please explain
whether or not an "anti-Semite" is, more often than not, looked upon as a
liar. Why or why not? Then, please tell us why this term is abused as much
as it is. Lastly, please list some terms which follow the same lines as
this hateful word. Thank you."
Is Mr. Curtis trying to change the topic again?!?
[.sig snipped]
CCed to Mike Curtis.
ChuckF2323
Chuck Ferree wrote:
Because the deniers want to change history. I don't want the deniers to
get away with changing history. The Holocaust happened the way it
happened, when it happened and because the Nazis made it happen. That is
history, and I want to fight about it.
O.K. with you?
Chuck
Mike Curtis
"Anthony Sabatini" <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
What I find most curious is how Sabatini takes what is said about
things in general about deniers and prefers to use the _I_ word. Watch
closely now.
>Mike Curtis <mi...@aimetering.com> wrote in article
><33145b77...@news.zilker.net>...
>> "Anthony Sabatini" <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Annie Alpert <mias...@ccnis.net> wrote in article
>> ><3301CB...@ccnis.net>...
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >> I agree that civil discourse is the only way to approach this issue.
>> >> The Holocaust is an emotionally charged issue, even without the added
>> >> drama of anti-Semitic bias and denial. It's important to take the high
>
>> >> road every time. I began my journey here knowing nearly nothing about
>> >> the subject, and with an open mind. I have studied and learned and
>came
>> >> to the conclusion that denying the Holocaust is simply a form of
>> >> anti-Semitism and without basis in rational thought.
>> >
>> >Good God! What a load of doo-doo! When will the disgusting shield of
>> >"anti-Semitism" be dropped?
>>
>> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
>> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
>
>Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
>fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
>"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
>
Mr. Sabatini seems to have missed the areas of specific discussion
within this group. What Mr. Sabatini is interested in we haven't a
clue. What the deniers are interested in we do have many clues. This
would be their Jewish phobia. Yet Mr. Sabatini jumps in and claims
the _I_ word. Why does Mr. Sabatini feel so guilty?
>> > What makes you think "denying the Holocaust is
>> >simple a form of anti-Semitism"?
>>
>> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
>> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied.
>
>Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
>fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
>"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
>
Again we haven't a clue as to what Sabatini's really are. They seem to
be in the area of taunting and shouting matches. But again, folks,
note the _I_ word. Why does he claim so much about the subject we are
speaking of? Is Mr. Sabatini's mirror doing the talking again?
>> > What makes you think that Jews are on
>> >everyone's mind?
>>
>> Mr. Sabatini should be willing to explain to this group why it is that
>> only the 6 million Jewish deaths are denied. He also might explain why
>> Ms. Alpert was accused of being Jewish (because of her name was the
>> reason) and then kicked off this particular list.
>
>Mr. Curtis should be willing to explain how he came about this wild
>fantasy. Would Mr. Curtis care to demonstrate that I am only interested in
>"the 6 million Jewish deaths" as opposed to the entire 12 million.
>
Heck, I'll answer the first part of his question since he chose NOT to
answer any of my questions about deniers. Deniers focus on Jews Mr.
Sabatini. Haven't you noticed that within this group there seems to be
a focus on Jews, Mr. Sabatini? What of the non-Jewish Russians, Poles,
French, Germans, Danish? What of the Seventh Day Adventists, the
Homosexuals, the retarded, the mentally ill, those with congenital
diseases? What of the other have of the picture? What of the shootings
of priests and intelligencia by the einsatzgruppen? (At least you
accepted the mental stresses the soldiers and policemen suffered, did
you not?) No, Mr. Sabatini, the denials go to the Jews and the gas
chambers. Reading this group is all the evidence you need. Then if you
really still have doubts you can go visit the various denial sites.
>I have no idea why "Ms. Alpert was accused of being Jewish" nor why she was
>"kicked off this particular list". Frankly, I don't care why.
>
You should since a group who thinks is promotes freedom of speech
kicked her off because of what she was explaining to them. They didn't
want to hear or see the evidence that countered their positions. Yet
they don't want to allow that kind of freedom of speech. If one joins
a group or is thinking about joining a group, the group should expect
questions to be asked of it. If that group can't answer the questions
to your satisfaction you can leave. But if the group kicks you out for
asking difficult questions this should tell you something about the
integrity of that group.
[snipped more of the same]
>> [snip]
>>
>> Mr. Sabatini must have missed this part of her message.
>>
>> >> This is true
>> >> whether you focus solely on one aspect--like the gas homicidal
>> >> chambers--or broadly blame the victims or even minimize the severity.
>
>> >> The way to prevent further ocurances of genocide is education. We
>can't
>> >> educate effectively if we are pointing fingers and calling names.
>> >
>
>I did not "miss it". What difference does it make? Please explain.
>
Blaming the victims for their fate is rather ridiculous isn't it? You
are a thoughtful individual are you not?
>Now Mr. Curtis will explain why he snipped the following (among other text)
>from my post:
>
>"Mrs. Alpert, please define "anti-Semitism" for us. And please explain
>whether or not an "anti-Semite" is, more often than not, looked upon as a
>liar. Why or why not? Then, please tell us why this term is abused as much
>as it is. Lastly, please list some terms which follow the same lines as
>this hateful word. Thank you."
>
>Is Mr. Curtis trying to change the topic again?!?
>
It was a question to another and I felt it was up to her to answer it.
I've already answered many of your questions on this topic. If you
want to ask this question of me, then you ask me.
Mike Curtis
E-mail mcu...@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/