Dream/Reality
Alan Smith
I subscribe to both these groups, and I felt that maybe you each had
something to aid the other.
For example: the sci.skeptics have been discussing whether OBE's really
happen, while the alt.dreamers have been discussing ways to induce them.
Word of warning, though, skeptics have this tendency to pounce on anybody
who professes beliefs outside of "mainstream science." I suggest that you
skeptics who intend to do any pouncing, (actually, me too!) TRY the
suggestions before you say "that's ridiculous." (SP?)
But that's just a side issue. I was reading one of the sci.skeptic posts
where someone was refuting someone else's claim that it was easy to tell
dream from reality. (I didn't read the names) Anyway, the refuter
mentioned that he often had dreams where he would get up, dress, eat, go
to work, and *then* wake up. (Usually saying something along the lines of
"Oh, man, I gotta do that *again?*") Sometimes these dreams would get
three levels deep.
I, personally, have had dreams like that, except my dreams sometimes were
about stuff I didn't have to do that day. ("Oh, just a dream, good
deal.") I have also experienced the opposite phenomenon, where I am awake
but it feels like I'm dreaming. Usually I either have just woken up or
have been sitting down giving rapt attention to a fiction book I was
reading. Then I stand up. My blood mass stays at it's previous level,
though, so my brain doesn't get enough oxygen and I'm convinced I'm
dreaming (or that what I'm experiencing is *not* reality) Then my
cardiovascular system picks up and I suddenly realize that where I am *is*
real. ("Oh, man...")
Questions, Comments, Guffaws?
Big Al. "What, this is REAL?"
Philip Stephens
>But that's just a side issue. I was reading one of the sci.skeptic posts
>where someone was refuting someone else's claim that it was easy to tell
>dream from reality.
If it were easy to tell dream from reality, then we would all be having lucid
dreams every night of the week. As it is, most of us don't realise we have
been dreaming until we wake up!
Aside from that, there is a well known phenomena called False Awakening that
can occur after a lucid dream has concluded, in which the person believes they
have woken up and procede to go about their day, oblivious to the fact they are
still dreaming. I know, since it has happened to me! I got quite a shock when
I finally did wake up :-)
So, to the person who stated that it was easy to tell dream from reality, I
have only one thing to say to them: you are making the mistake of comparing
dreams to reality WHEN YOU HAVE WOKEN UP. There is quite a difference between
experiencing a dream and remembering a dream, although it's no different from
experiencing a waking event and remembering that event later. So get your
terms of reference right before you make your claims :-)
Happy dreaming,
Philip Stephens
Labtam Australia Pty Ltd
phi...@labtam.labtam.oz.au
Rich Payne
>Alan Smith writes:
>
>>But that's just a side issue. I was reading one of the sci.skeptic posts
>>where someone was refuting someone else's claim that it was easy to tell
>>dream from reality.
>
> If it were easy to tell dream from reality, then we would all be having lucid
>dreams every night of the week.
I'm afraid that I do not see how the conclusion follows from the proposition.
> As it is, most of us don't realise we have
>been dreaming until we wake up!
And some of us do not remember dreaming at all.
> Aside from that, there is a well known phenomena called False Awakening that
>can occur after a lucid dream has concluded, in which the person believes they
>have woken up and procede to go about their day, oblivious to the fact they are
>still dreaming. I know, since it has happened to me! I got quite a shock when
>I finally did wake up :-)
If False awakening is as common as lucid dreaming (very uncommon), then I
am not sure what it says about dreaming in general. Hmmm, if it is always
associated with lucid dreaming, then both might result from the same cause.
> So, to the person who stated that it was easy to tell dream from reality, I
>have only one thing to say to them: you are making the mistake of comparing
>dreams to reality WHEN YOU HAVE WOKEN UP.
Is it possible that most (or even some) -can- tell dreams from reality, while
some cannot. This seems to be a matter of perceptions more than state. At
least, all the evidence I have seen so far has been perceptual.
And since I do not remember dreams, I suspect that I would not make this
mistake when I wake up. Assuming that I do dream (they say everyone does),
how would I know that I was in a dream?
> There is quite a difference between
>experiencing a dream and remembering a dream, although it's no different from
>experiencing a waking event and remembering that event later. So get your
>terms of reference right before you make your claims :-)
>
> Happy dreaming,
> Philip Stephens
> Labtam Australia Pty Ltd
> phi...@labtam.labtam.oz.au
Rich
Carl J Lydick
>In article <philip.712283925@labtam> phi...@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Philip Stephens) writes:
>>Alan Smith writes:
>> If it were easy to tell dream from reality, then we would all be having lucid
>>dreams every night of the week.
>
>I'm afraid that I do not see how the conclusion follows from the proposition.
A lucid dream is one in which you're dreaming and you know you're dreaming.
Given that you have several dreams every night, if you could easily distinguish
between dream and reality, these dreams would, by definition, be lucid dreams.
However, I think that the problem here is that Rich and Alan are talking about
two different things: Alan's talking about distinguishing between dreams and
reality in real time; Rich, I think, is talking about distinguishing memories
of dreams from memories of reality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CA...@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Philip Stephens
>I'm afraid that I do not see how the conclusion [we would have lucid dreams]
>follows from the proposition [if we could tell the different between dreaming
>and reality].
Sorry, I suppose I sounded a little crytic by not expanding on what I meant.
I'm talking about our state of mind when we are in the middle of a dream; if it
was easy to tell the difference between a dream and reality WHEN DREAMING, then
obviously we could become lucid on a regular basis. As it stands, however,
most people only have lucid dreams once in a while, suggesting that we
generally are not able to distinguish between dream and reality WHEN DREAMING.
This conclusion seems to be born out by my own investigations of my state of
mind when dreaming (this is just me having vivid dreams and remembering clearly
how what I was thinking of at the time of the dream).
>If False awakening is as common as lucid dreaming (very uncommon), then I
>am not sure what it says about dreaming in general. Hmmm, if it is always
>associated with lucid dreaming, then both might result from the same cause.
Very probably. I think False Awakenings have been found to occur most
readily after a lucid dream has ended. The two phenomena are connected really,
as in both cases there is a heightened awareness of being conscious and having
an experience (regardless of whether you realise you are dreaming or not).
>Is it possible that most (or even some) -can- tell dreams from reality, while
>some cannot. This seems to be a matter of perceptions more than state. At
>least, all the evidence I have seen so far has been perceptual.
Again, when you look at dreaming from the perspective of actually being in a
dream at the time, it would seem more reasonable to conclude that most people
don't recognise that what they are experiencing is in fact a dream. I don't
really think that conclusion is in dispute; I think the problem we are having
here is a matter of semantics and perspective.
I don't think ANYONE would wake up from a dream and not realise it was a
dream! That sounds rather unlikely. Some people here have reported that
occassionally they will remember some event that was suppose to have happened
to them a day or so ago, only to realise later that it may have been a dream
and not a waking event! So confusion can occur, but in this case it's a matter
of the limitations of memory, I guess.
>Assuming that I do dream (they say everyone does), how would I know that I was in a dream?
You wouldn't :-)
Rich Payne
>In article <!=mm8aq....@netcom.com>, pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <philip.712283925@labtam> phi...@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Philip Stephens) writes:
>>>Alan Smith writes:
>>>If it were easy to tell dream from reality, then we would all be having lucid
>>>dreams every night of the week.
>>
>>I'm afraid that I do not see how the conclusion follows from the proposition.
>
>A lucid dream is one in which you're dreaming and you know you're dreaming.
>Given that you have several dreams every night, if you could easily distinguish
>between dream and reality, these dreams would, by definition, be lucid dreams.
>
>However, I think that the problem here is that Rich and Alan are talking about
>two different things: Alan's talking about distinguishing between dreams and
>reality in real time; Rich, I think, is talking about distinguishing memories
>of dreams from memories of reality.
Actually, I meant to point out that there is a difference between being
able to distinguish dreams from reality, and the ability to have lucid
dreams on demand. That you can do the first does not prove (or even imply)
that you can do the second. Neither does it imply that you cannot do the
second.
>Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CA...@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
>
Rich
Philip Stephens
>Actually, I meant to point out that there is a difference between being
>able to distinguish dreams from reality, and the ability to have lucid
>dreams on demand. That you can do the first does not prove (or even imply)
>that you can do the second. Neither does it imply that you cannot do the
>second.
Indeed, you have a good point there. You're obviously refering to the
technique of doing "reality checks" as a way of inducing lucid dreams when you
are dreaming. I've never had much success in that regard; all my lucid dreams
just seem to be spontaneous realisations, not based on any prior attempts to
discover ways of telling the difference between dreams and reality! That
doesn't mean "reality checks" are not useful--I think quite a few people have
used the technique to good effect.
Philip Stephens.
Rich Payne
>Rich Payne writes:
>
>>I'm afraid that I do not see how the conclusion [we would have lucid dreams]
>>follows from the proposition [if we could tell the different between dreaming
>>and reality].
>
> Sorry, I suppose I sounded a little crytic by not expanding on what I meant.
>I'm talking about our state of mind when we are in the middle of a dream; if it
>was easy to tell the difference between a dream and reality WHEN DREAMING, then
>obviously we could become lucid on a regular basis.
This makes more sense to me, but seems to be a tautology to some extent.
I read this as -we can tell the difference between dreams and being awake
while (possibly only while) in a lucid dream-. Or perhaps, a lucid dream is
a dream where we can tell the difference between dreams and reality.
Come to think of it, is not a lucid dream, by definition, a vivid dream
where one is aware that they are dreaming and able to direct the events?
> As it stands, however,
>most people only have lucid dreams once in a while, suggesting that we
>generally are not able to distinguish between dream and reality WHEN DREAMING.
>This conclusion seems to be born out by my own investigations of my state of
>mind when dreaming (this is just me having vivid dreams and remembering clearly
>how what I was thinking of at the time of the dream).
>
>>If False awakening is as common as lucid dreaming (very uncommon), then I
>>am not sure what it says about dreaming in general. Hmmm, if it is always
>>associated with lucid dreaming, then both might result from the same cause.
>
> Very probably. I think False Awakenings have been found to occur most
>readily after a lucid dream has ended. The two phenomena are connected really,
>as in both cases there is a heightened awareness of being conscious and having
>an experience (regardless of whether you realise you are dreaming or not).
This seem odd now that I think about it. First, one has a dream and knows
one is dreaming. Then, they dream that they are awake, but are not aware that
they are still dreaming. Repeat as needed. Kind of a reversal here. And I
could see how this would be confusing.
>>Is it possible that most (or even some) -can- tell dreams from reality, while
>>some cannot. This seems to be a matter of perceptions more than state. At
>>least, all the evidence I have seen so far has been perceptual.
>
> Again, when you look at dreaming from the perspective of actually being in a
>dream at the time, it would seem more reasonable to conclude that most people
>don't recognise that what they are experiencing is in fact a dream. I don't
>really think that conclusion is in dispute; I think the problem we are having
>here is a matter of semantics and perspective.
Here I was responding to claims that both noone can tell the difference,
and that everyone can tell the difference. I do not see that either must
neccessarily be the case.
> I don't think ANYONE would wake up from a dream and not realise it was a
>dream! That sounds rather unlikely. Some people here have reported that
>occassionally they will remember some event that was suppose to have happened
>to them a day or so ago, only to realise later that it may have been a dream
>and not a waking event! So confusion can occur, but in this case it's a matter
>of the limitations of memory, I guess.
>
>>Assuming that I do dream (they say everyone does), how would I know that I was in a dream?
>
> You wouldn't :-)
Well, it could explain some things (which I would bet money were impossible)
which have happened recently. They have not really happened, I just dreamed
that they did. :^) Hopefully this state is repeatable, but either the dream
or reality is falling apart, for other odd reasons.
Oh well, as the saying goes, fact is stranger than fiction, because fiction
has to make sense.
Mike Mcaulay
AS>But that's just a side issue. I was reading one of the sci.skeptic posts
AS>where someone was refuting someone else's claim that it was easy to tell
AS>dream from reality. (I didn't read the names) Anyway, the refuter
AS>mentioned that he often had dreams where he would get up, dress, eat, go
AS>to work, and *then* wake up. (Usually saying something along the lines of
AS>"Oh, man, I gotta do that *again?*") Sometimes these dreams would get
AS>three levels deep.
AS>I, personally, have had dreams like that, except my dreams sometimes were
AS>about stuff I didn't have to do that day. ("Oh, just a dream, good
AS>deal.") I have also experienced the opposite phenomenon, where I am awake
AS>but it feels like I'm dreaming. Usually I either have just woken up or
AS>have been sitting down giving rapt attention to a fiction book I was
AS>reading. Then I stand up. My blood mass stays at it's previous level,
AS>though, so my brain doesn't get enough oxygen and I'm convinced I'm
AS>dreaming (or that what I'm experiencing is *not* reality) Then my
AS>cardiovascular system picks up and I suddenly realize that where I am *is*
Stephen LeBerge recommends reading something, looking away, then reading
it again. If you're dreaming, the words will *not* be the same. I have
tried this and found it to be the case (in fact, it's my most reliable
method of inducing LDs). I would *love* to hear from anyone for whom
this is *not* the case.
I don't read sci.skeptics. I think it would be cool if you would post
this info to whoever you're referring to. (sorry bout the grammar, it's
late...) It really does work.
M.
---
. SLMR 2.1a . The illuminosity factor is on Lord!
Mcirvin
>But that's just a side issue. I was reading one of the sci.skeptic posts
>where someone was refuting someone else's claim that it was easy to tell
>dream from reality. (I didn't read the names) Anyway, the refuter
>mentioned that he often had dreams where he would get up, dress, eat, go
>to work, and *then* wake up. (Usually saying something along the lines of
>"Oh, man, I gotta do that *again?*") Sometimes these dreams would get
>three levels deep.
I had a five-level-deep one once when I was little. Every time I
woke up, there would be something slightly wrong with my room. At
one level there was a ghostlike creature standing in the corner
wearing sunglasses.
>I have also experienced the opposite phenomenon, where I am awake
>but it feels like I'm dreaming. Usually I either have just woken up or
>have been sitting down giving rapt attention to a fiction book I was
>reading. Then I stand up. My blood mass stays at it's previous level,
>though, so my brain doesn't get enough oxygen and I'm convinced I'm
>dreaming (or that what I'm experiencing is *not* reality) Then my
>cardiovascular system picks up and I suddenly realize that where I am *is*
>real. ("Oh, man...")
That happens to me too... it's a consequence of low blood pressure.
I never got the feeling that I was dreaming, though, just that I
was on the verge of fainting. Everything becomes purple and
grainy.
--
Matt McIrvin mci...@husc.harvard.edu