Klev-R suggestion
Mark A. Storer
I know this is in the clever suggestion archive on farnorth, but here's
my spin on things:
Original idea: When you die, you go to the end of the wait queue.
Problem: You may be forced to switch teams.
Solution: Multiple wait queues. One for incoming players, and one
for each team. But wait! Which queue has priority? Incoming or team?
Or just keep track of when each player got in line, and take the
earliest. Which brings up a case where 2 or 3 people come in from one
queue before 1 can come in from another. Hmm...
--Mark Storer
Svin Yeader
Shawn Collenburg
"Mark A. Storer" <cr...@netonecom.net> wrote:
>I know this is in the clever suggestion archive on farnorth, but here's
>my spin on things:
> Original idea: When you die, you go to the end of the wait queue.
> Problem: You may be forced to switch teams.
Bigger problem: Now you have defense scums. Most twinks are
already scared enough of dying, this'll just make it worse.
Shawn
Tom Youderian
"Mark A. Storer" <cr...@netonecom.net> wrote:
>I know this is in the clever suggestion archive on farnorth, but here's
>my spin on things:
> Original idea: When you die, you go to the end of the wait queue.
You dumbass, you dont go to the end of the queue when you die.
Tom
Jacob King
This is one of the most moronic things I have ever seen...
Do I need to bother listing all the reasons this would suck ?
Mark A. Storer (cr...@netonecom.net) wrote:
: I know this is in the clever suggestion archive on farnorth, but here's
: my spin on things:
: Original idea: When you die, you go to the end of the wait queue.
: Problem: You may be forced to switch teams.
: Solution: Multiple wait queues. One for incoming players, and one
: for each team. But wait! Which queue has priority? Incoming or team?
: Or just keep track of when each player got in line, and take the
: earliest. Which brings up a case where 2 or 3 people come in from one
: queue before 1 can come in from another. Hmm...
: --Mark Storer
: Svin Yeader
--
The dumber people think you are the more surprised they will be when you
kill them. -William Clayton
Jacob King <obi...@glue.umd.edu>
Undergraduate Mathematics and Physics
University of MD, College Park
Mark A. Storer
Shawn Collenburg wrote:
>
> "Mark A. Storer" <cr...@netonecom.net> wrote:
>
> >I know this is in the clever suggestion archive on farnorth, but here's
> >my spin on things:
> > Original idea: When you die, you go to the end of the wait queue.
>
> > Problem: You may be forced to switch teams.
>
> already scared enough of dying, this'll just make it worse.
>
> Shawn
Speaking of scumming, I really don't see the point past Commander. What
does it get you? "Respect" that comes with rank? Ha! Just about every
time I've noticed someone scumming, someone else was ragging on them for
it. Personally, once I can play an SB if I feel like it (not that I'm
any good at it yet), DER AIN'T NO POINT. Oohh.. he's a Rear Admiral.
(And how many gay jokes has that pulled over the years).
Its been said before, and it'll be said again:
clue != rank
--Mark Storer
Michael Mulvaney
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:41:48 -0400, Mark A. Storer <cr...@netonecom.net> wrote:
>Speaking of scumming, I really don't see the point past Commander. What
Once you make Captain you don't have to send the word "bronco" to yourself,
at least.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Michael Mulvaney http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~mulvaney
Herbert: Do you understand?
Homer: Sort of.
Herbert: Homer?
Homer: What.
Herbert: Answer me again with self-confidence!
Homer: SORT OF!
-- pep talk, ``Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?''
Tin Man
> You dumbass, you dont go to the end of the queue when you die.
Ah yes, another typical "clued" response? And you people wonder why
there's so much agitation? Why not just say:
"Because it would basically be no fun to have to go to the end of the
cue, and it would hurt the game since players would keep rotating in,
unaware of the situation, thus making base ogging or general planning next
to impossible in a large queue, plus, as someone else mentioned, it would
make players reluctant to get killed. Sometimes getting killed is just
part of being a good team player. Being forced to change teams is really
the least worry."
Note the clever lack of "dumbass", "twink" or "go away until you have
10,000 kills".
Scott Humphreys
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>
> Note the clever lack of "dumbass", "twink" or "go away until you have
>10,000 kills".
When twinks get uppity, you have to smack them back down.
I forget who said...
"No offense, but dont try to think just do what i say."
That made me laugh, i almost wish i had said that. :)
-Scott
PS. Dont believe everything you read on rgn, i am helpful to anyone who asks
me reasonably nicely. Everyone who has started netrek in the last 2
years at UW uses my .xtrekrc.
terry chay !
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>> You dumbass, you dont go to the end of the queue when you die.
> Ah yes, another typical "clued" response? And you people wonder why
>there's so much agitation? Why not just say:
Maybe because this suggestion was answered in the FOCS? I believe
that anyone has the right to Farenheit 451 any article that is directly
answered in the FAQ/FOCs/FTPlist.
While it is unreasonable to expect everyone to have read the
entire gs69 archive twice before playing netrek as I did. I think that
one should read the FAQ before posting, and the FOCS before making a
suggestion on changing the game.
> Note the clever lack of "dumbass", "twink" or "go away until you have
>10,000 kills".
Well, we'll see after you've played as long as the poster and
continued to read r.g.n as much if you're responses aren't as spicy as
his.
When I first started playing, atae posted suggesting an
escorting statistic based on distance from carrier. I thought it was
silly and posted that it was silly because I could just hang around
our carriers and scum escorting stats.
I immediately got flamed by _one_ clue. But it was only one,
and the person obviously didn't understand that I was only being
hypothetical since there would be no reason for me to actually do
this as I only played as guest at the time.
Oh, and I didn't post how the "typical clued response" is to
say "dumbass" "twink" "go away until you have 10,000 kills". Because
I thought that might be offensive to the "typical clue" who didn't
respond in that manner regarding my post.
terry
66 @ Hockey Night in Canada
--
terrence chay tyc...@alumni.caltech.edu
http://www.physics.uiuc.edu/~tychay/
Trent Piepho
In article <54kvor$4...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Scott Humphreys <scottt> wrote:
>PS. Dont believe everything you read on rgn, i am helpful to anyone who asks
>me reasonably nicely. Everyone who has started netrek in the last 2
>years at UW uses my .xtrekrc.
I don't.
But I guess it's been a bit more than two years. However, several players
I got into the game use mine. Maybe we can have a flamefest about whose
.xtrekrc is better. Don't think I've seen one of those yet.
--
|Gazing up to the breeze of the heavens \ on a quest, meaning, reason |
|came to be, how it begun \ all alone in the family of the sun |
|curiosity teasing everyone \ on our home, third stone from the sun. |
|Trent Piepho (xy...@u.washington.edu) -- Metallica |
Lamont Granquist
xy...@u.washington.edu (Trent Piepho) writes:
>In article <54kvor$4...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
>Scott Humphreys <scottt> wrote:
>>PS. Dont believe everything you read on rgn, i am helpful to anyone who asks
>>me reasonably nicely. Everyone who has started netrek in the last 2
>>years at UW uses my .xtrekrc.
>
>I don't.
I don't, either scottt...
so thhpffftttt =P
--
Lamont Granquist (lamontg @ u.washington.edu) ICBM: 47 39'23"N 122 18'19"W
There comes a point, I'm afraid, where you begin to suspect that if there's
any _real_ truth, it's that the entire multidimentional infinity of the
Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs -- Douglas Adams
SEND NO UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL -- admin@yoursite *will* be notified!
Dean Yasuda
"Mark A. Storer" <cr...@netonecom.net> wrote:
>I know this is in the clever suggestion archive on farnorth, but here's
>my spin on things:
> Original idea: When you die, you go to the end of the wait queue.
> Problem: You may be forced to switch teams.
I think you should have dogfight challenges in the queue. It would be way
cool!
Whenever the queue pops, odd-even dogfights (1-2, 3-4, 5-6 ...) occur for
the next spot. If even wins, he leapfrogs odd. If odd wins, a mutual
occurs, thirty seconds expires, or another queue-pop occurs before the
battle is resolved, the queue moves as normal into the next state.
One-on-one, single-tactical arenas, three updates per second, no planets,
players start in the corners. Thirty second battles, mutuals are ties.
Vastly superior players would progress down the even numbers in the queue
at nearly double the normal rate. Vastly inferior players would get
stalled while at odd spots in the queue until someone nearly as bad comes
up against them or a double queue-pop occurs.
Players would be warmed up by the time they get to the game.
After five straight losses a player gets kicked out of the queue.
--Teddy Ruxpin
Mr Uncultured Guy
terry chay ! (tyc...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
: >> You dumbass, you dont go to the end of the queue when you die.
: > Ah yes, another typical "clued" response? And you people wonder why
: >there's so much agitation? Why not just say:
: Maybe because this suggestion was answered in the FOCS? I believe
: that anyone has the right to Farenheit 451 any article that is directly
: answered in the FAQ/FOCs/FTPlist.
Not to defend tinman, but this really was a case of tyoud utterly
misunderstanding his post.
-Dan
--
Dan Ehrig |Veni. Vici. Machiavelli.
(job classified) |I came.
Work Phone: (505) 277-8137 |I conquered.
http://www.unm.edu/~dehrig |I pretended it was my right to do that.
Tom Youderian
My .xtrekrc rules yours!!
Mine has about ... 10x as many macros as yours I bet.
Tom
hehehe trent :))
I win again!!
Tom Youderian
tyc...@alumnae.caltech.edu ( terry chay !) wrote:
> When I first started playing, atae posted suggesting an
>escorting statistic based on distance from carrier. I thought it was
>silly and posted that it was silly because I could just hang around
>our carriers and scum escorting stats.
Heheh scum the escort stat, good idea.
Hey didnt they then modify the post somehow or the thread went the direction
of... no no you would *reward* the guy by clicking on him somehow
but then I would just reward my buddies who are stupid ogging and not my
'escort' heheh.
That was a fun thread
Tom
Tom Youderian
Teddy, you are cool.
Yeah, ok, I'd like the end-of-the-queue mod if you got to dogfight while you
waited and maybe if only the STRONG get to go back in to play :>
hHEHEH that would be funny.
NO, THAT WOULD RULE!!
Tom
Tin Man
> After five straight losses a player gets kicked out of the queue.
Or we could just shoot all new players on sight. Dogfighting to kill
another ship isn't that great of a skill. Generally, if you want to kill
another ship, you should probably ogg it. The only reason to dogfight in
an attempt to kill a ship and live is because you're trying to get a kill
to start taking planets with. Even if you're escorting, you're not
dogfighting, since a good escort intentially puts himself in a position to
det all the enemy torps.
This, incidentally, is why the 10,000 kill rule is fundamentally
flawed. It's about as clever as using kill ratio as a basis.
Dean Yasuda
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>> After five straight losses a player gets kicked out of the queue.
> Or we could just shoot all new players on sight. Dogfighting to kill
>another ship isn't that great of a skill. Generally, if you want to kill
>another ship, you should probably ogg it. The only reason to dogfight in
>an attempt to kill a ship and live is because you're trying to get a kill
>to start taking planets with. Even if you're escorting, you're not
>dogfighting, since a good escort intentially puts himself in a position to
>det all the enemy torps.
Learn the game, then preach, Tin Boy. Dogfighting is an essential skill.
All good players are decent dogfighters. If you spend your time playing
against twinks, though, you can come up with any number of half-baked
conclusions, because Everything Works Against Twinks (tm).
The only thing dumber than a newbie taking my mod proposals seriously is
for him to follow up his criticisms with crummy advice.
--Teddy Ruxpin
John Morgan Salomon
In article <54n2js$5...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Dean Yasuda <dumb...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Learn the game, then preach, Tin Boy. Dogfighting is an essential skill.
>All good players are decent dogfighters. If you spend your time playing
>against twinks, though, you can come up with any number of half-baked
>conclusions, because Everything Works Against Twinks (tm).
Dogfighting is lame. When I'm on a halfway decent team, I always like
it when the enemy has good dogfighters, because the guys who are both good
dogfighters and clued team players are few and far in-between. Let the
prima-donna dogfighter weenies get their kills; usually they won't have
much of a clue what the fuck is going on 2 tacticals away.
>--Teddy Ruxpin
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
--
The Rev. John Morgan Salomon
jo...@csua.berkeley.edu
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~john
karim
In article <01bbc15e$ffc7ee80$2b9aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
> This, incidentally, is why the 10,000 kill rule is fundamentally
>flawed. It's about as clever as using kill ratio as a basis.
>
Look worm,
Get off your hang up about 10,000 fucking kills. I am sick of
reading your crap and I don't want to start a kill file for RGN.
I can't help but reading your "comments" as shallow. Wasn't one of your
first suggestions to add in Star Trek crap to the races?
Respect is a big part of this game. And you my tinman, have none.
If you want to gain respect, come play netrek. Don't try to
convince me that I should listen to you because your opinions on netrek
are just as valid as everyone elses. You are out of your
league and you don't even know it.
I have yet to see you at a clue game. Tell me when you play sometime
and I'll come teach you some manners.
Karim
John Morgan Salomon
In article <54ncqr$2...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Scott Humphreys <scottt> wrote:
>>Dogfighting is lame. When I'm on a halfway decent team, I always like
>>it when the enemy has good dogfighters, because the guys who are both good
>>dogfighters and clued team players are few and far in-between. Let the
>>prima-donna dogfighter weenies get their kills; usually they won't have
>>much of a clue what the fuck is going on 2 tacticals away.
>
>Jealousy sucks doesnst it?
No, just UWash. Speaking of which, where's LaggU? I miss them, they were
fun.
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
No snide Washington State 1-yard-line comments, please.
Scott Humphreys
jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (John Morgan Salomon) wrote:
>In article <54n2js$5...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
>Dean Yasuda <dumb...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>>Learn the game, then preach, Tin Boy. Dogfighting is an essential skill.
>>All good players are decent dogfighters. If you spend your time playing
>>against twinks, though, you can come up with any number of half-baked
>>conclusions, because Everything Works Against Twinks (tm).
haha, dean rewls.
>Dogfighting is lame. When I'm on a halfway decent team, I always like
>it when the enemy has good dogfighters, because the guys who are both good
>dogfighters and clued team players are few and far in-between. Let the
>prima-donna dogfighter weenies get their kills; usually they won't have
>much of a clue what the fuck is going on 2 tacticals away.
Jealousy sucks doesnst it?
>The Rev. John Morgan Salomon
>jo...@csua.berkeley.edu
Dean Yasuda
jo...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (John Morgan Salomon) writes:
>In article <54ncqr$2...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
>Scott Humphreys <scottt> wrote:
>>>Dogfighting is lame. When I'm on a halfway decent team, I always like
>>>it when the enemy has good dogfighters, because the guys who are both good
>>>dogfighters and clued team players are few and far in-between. Let the
>>>prima-donna dogfighter weenies get their kills; usually they won't have
>>>much of a clue what the fuck is going on 2 tacticals away.
Hey, I never said dogfighting for its own sake was helpful. It's a
lot like dribbling in basketball. Every shitty basketball player learns
how dribble, usually with his head down with no clue what's happening
on the court. But every good basketball player can dribble decently.
>>Jealousy sucks doesnst it?
>No, just UWash. Speaking of which, where's LaggU? I miss them, they were
>fun.
LaggU retired last December. After that, most of us played no Netrek
except for games, and so went winless in '96. I've been cold
turkey for six months now.
>-John
>Fuzzy Bunny
>No snide Washington State 1-yard-line comments, please.
Go Cougs! The term "Coug-ing it" means to collapse in the fourth
quarter and give up the game. That got started in the Jim Walden
days and has been a proud Cougar tradition for well over a decade.
We gave you guys every opportunity.
And you guys had to go and throw the ball away.
--Teddy Ruxpin
Tin Man
> Look worm,
Netrek Clue, off on the right foot again, I see.
> Get off your hang up about 10,000 fucking kills. I am sick of
> reading your crap and I don't want to start a kill file for RGN.
It wasn't my idea, and I don't care if you start a kill file.
> I can't help but reading your "comments" as shallow. Wasn't one of your
> first suggestions to add in Star Trek crap to the races?
Just a thought. It's been proposed probably dozens of times and it's
always hated, so I figured one more time couldn't hurt. Even I don't think
it's a clever idea, except as a seperate game.
> Respect is a big part of this game. And you my tinman, have none.
I started out being perfectly polite. It's people like you who insist
on dragging me down to fight on your level. Well, funny thing is, I'll
play that game. There's a lot of that around here, I notice. Some poor
newbie comes along with something he thinks is clever, gets responses that
start with things to the effect of, "Look, worm", then you complain about
how his followup responses lack respect. Get a clue, dude.
> If you want to gain respect, come play netrek. Don't try to
> convince me that I should listen to you because your opinions on netrek
> are just as valid as everyone elses. You are out of your
> league and you don't even know it.
Bah!
> I have yet to see you at a clue game. Tell me when you play sometime
> and I'll come teach you some manners.
Bring it. Where the hell do I sign up?
Tin Man
> Maybe because this suggestion was answered in the FOCS? I believe
> that anyone has the right to Farenheit 451 any article that is directly
> answered in the FAQ/FOCs/FTPlist.
I don't get the hangup over the FOCS. Two years ago, sure. Two years
ago you had to wade into this newsgroup, there was so much garbage flying
around. But now.... Hell, we should pick up the FOCS and discuss
everything in there just to have something else to talk about, maybe
generate some interest. It's majorly close minded to create of List of
Things We Won't Talk About Anymore. Netrek censorship? Maybe some of you
already hasehed it over, but I haven't, and I'm sure plenty of people here
haven't. This newsgroup isn't just here as a service to long time readers.
If they don't have anything to contribute but, "Shut up, it's in the
FOCS", they might as well just keep it to themselves and let the rest of us
have a jolly discussion. Chances are we'll come to exactly the same
conclusion, but what the hell, eh?
> Oh, and I didn't post how the "typical clued response" is to
> say "dumbass" "twink" "go away until you have 10,000 kills". Because
> I thought that might be offensive to the "typical clue" who didn't
> respond in that manner regarding my post.
Hm. Good point. The urge to make a jab in response to a jab is
difficult to overcome. I know it's bad policy, though, which is probably
all the worse.
gregory dean dearing
> This, incidentally, is why the 10,000 kill rule is fundamentally
>flawed. It's about as clever as using kill ratio as a basis.
For clarification, the 10,000 kill rule of thumb is "You can't have
10,000 kills and be a bad dogfighter". I'd say it's not true in all
cases, but it's not so unreasonable that you need to obsess on it. :)
Trivia of the day: "Rule of Thumb" comes from the idea that it's
unacceptable to beat your wife with a switch thicker than your
thumb.
--
Gregory Dearing
Email: dear...@osu.edu
Michael Mulvaney
On 24 Oct 1996 22:52:48 GMT, Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>you can go take. Most people, however, just sit there and dogfight until
>they die. They're not guarding anything, they're not escorting anybody,
>they're not ogging kills, they're not bombing, they're not doing jack but
Space Controlling. They are space controlling. If you can control
all the space, you will win. Note that you have to be pretty damn
good to control all the space. They are giving you all those green
alert takes so you can make Commander.
Dogfighting is a necessary skill in netrek. Good players are usually
good dogfighters. It doesn't matter very much if you are in the right
place if you can't kill anything, just like it doesn't matter very much
if you kill things if you are in the wrong place.
Tin Man
> Learn the game, then preach, Tin Boy. Dogfighting is an essential skill.
> All good players are decent dogfighters. If you spend your time playing
> against twinks, though, you can come up with any number of half-baked
> conclusions, because Everything Works Against Twinks (tm).
Dogfighting is overrated. Dogfighting is what people go to the front
to do until they die. For no good reason. Dogfighting is great as
practice, mostly because it shows you how to lob torps and get a kill so
you can go take. Most people, however, just sit there and dogfight until
they die. They're not guarding anything, they're not escorting anybody,
they're not ogging kills, they're not bombing, they're not doing jack but
sittin' up there thinkin', "Wow, I can dogfight. I'm the shit", then they
die and do it again. Wasted slot. Me, I'd wait til they're about out of
gas from sitting there and dogfighting for no reason, then go take the agri
that's next to them, and laugh while they scream, "HELP! CA @ EAR. NO
FUEL."
Mr Uncultured Guy
Tin Man (tin...@widowmaker.com) wrote:
: Or we could just shoot all new players on sight. Dogfighting to kill
: another ship isn't that great of a skill. Generally, if you want to kill
: another ship, you should probably ogg it. The only reason to dogfight in
You've just lost any credibility you ever may have had. The ability to
fight and stay alive while killing enemies is *very* important in
netrek. Or were you talking about paradise? Do you understand the
importance of establishing an area of control at a planet/planets?
Tom Holub
In article <54orgt...@bank.cis.ohio-state.edu>,
gregory dean dearing <dea...@bank.cis.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
)
)Trivia of the day: "Rule of Thumb" comes from the idea that it's
)unacceptable to beat your wife with a switch thicker than your
)thumb.
Cool WWW site of the day: <http://www.urbanlegends.com>.
Or specifically,
<http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/rule_of_thumb.html>
-Tom
Tin Man
> Hey, I never said dogfighting for its own sake was helpful.
That's exactly what I said, too, and you jumped my case. I said that
dogfighting in order to kill another ship --so that you could start taking
planets-- wasn't a bad thing, but that you shouldn't just sit around and
dogfight, because it's silly. If you're warding off enemy carriers, you
don't wanna dogfight the first schmoe who walks up. You wanna wait until
there's something important and ogg the shit out of it. Dogfighting for
the sake of dogfighting is great when there's only two or three people on a
server. In T-mode, it's not that great. This goes back to the original
point of "dogfighting ability != clue".
But by all means, don't let this stop you from viciously attacking me.
Henrik Bylund
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
(Learn to fucking quote, at least include the name of the one you're
quoting. It's a miracle you keep the References: header, but on the
other hand, it's probably something your newsreader does for yuo
without you noticing it, similar to your mouth talking without your
brain noticing it)
You say it's overrated because you never got the hang of it
yourself. You rather trust skills as buttorping, running, touch third
space planets, since this worked out well for you in paradise. Don't
come and say that dogfighting is overrated just because some twink
acts like you describe above. I could say that bombing is overrated,
because yesterday I saw TWICE some twink bomb a core agri @ 5 with his
DD of loose just as I was about to retake it in my AS +3, if I would
follow your reasoning.
Beating a team with better dogfighters is of course possible, on a
higher level of netrek. Having good dogfighters to fall back on is
essential though. Got it?
/Henrik
Dean Yasuda
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>> Hey, I never said dogfighting for its own sake was helpful.
> That's exactly what I said, too, and you jumped my case. I said that
>dogfighting in order to kill another ship --so that you could start taking
>planets-- wasn't a bad thing, but that you shouldn't just sit around and
>dogfight, because it's silly.
I responded and am responding because your little gems of insight are of
absolutely no use to the vast majority of the posters on, and most likely,
the general readership of this newsgroup. Take your last little banality,
for instance.
Every clued and semi-clued player already knows that dogfighting w/o
purpose is a bad thing. Players (assuming they read) learn this by the
time they've played a month. Just about everyone here has played quite
a bit longer than that. We've heard your advice before, we've read it,
we've understood it, long before you started playing the game.
Look, if a group of college students was discussing mathematics, and a
child came along and interrupted them incessently to blurt out his times
tables, at first they might nod patronizingly, then they might try to
ignore him. Eventually, though, they'll get pissed, and they'll tell the
little bugger to get lost.
And I'm sorry you're so sensitive; I don't feel I was jumping your case.
Yes, I may have snapped at you, but understand that that is my reaction to
yappy little newbies. You know, when I was growing up, our neighbors up
the street owned and operated a dachsund kennel business at their home.
Apparently these dachsunds were of the free range variety, because several
times per week a pack of 4 to 10 dachsunds would go racing around the
neighborhood, barking and baying at everything that they saw. They would
run out to the road and bark at you when you walked, and then chase after
you as you passed by. They were indescribably annoying.
When I got older and faster, I learned to use pine branches as herding
devices. I would then separate one dachsund from the rest of pack and
drive him, barking all the while, down the road until he became quite
disoriented and lost.
I just don't understand why people buy rat dogs.
Anyhow, what I wanted to add in my defense was this: if you could see in
the minds of the readers of this newsgroup, read their thoughts, and
understand what they really think of you, your ability, your knowledge,
and your eager-beaver little tidbits of advice, you would apprehend a far
more hostile reaction than you have encountered on RGN, thus far. They
loathe you in private; at least I'm letting you know how I feel.
Keep playing!
--Teddy Ruxpin
Kevin Bernatz
Not sure who really said that dogfighting is overrated (read it in Henrik's
post...I think he excerpted Tin Man).
Dogfighting is overrated. But only to a degree. You *must* be above the
threshold level if you want to be competent on the INL level playing field.
The same goes for almost every 'ability'..SC bombing, planet taking, SBing.etc.
There is a certain point where you are "good enough". Then there comes the
point where you are "great", where the extra skill you have gives you a
distinct advantage over the people who are "good enough". A good example is
Erik Lauer's basing ability, Phantom's and ensign's phaserlocking ability two
to three years ago and Tfengs and Charity's dogfighting ability about 1 year
ago. (okay..make that 3 good example's :> ). In each case, the aforementioned
player could dominate in that phase of the game *in* INL level games. What
you do in pickup is meaningless. The quoter is 100% correct in saying that
there are tons of people who fly up and dogfight for no reason..but incorrect
in saying that he'll then fly in and take the agri while they distress that
they are out of fuel. 9 times out of 10 they probably won't even notice you.
That's why pickup sucks..it's full of twinks. In good INL teams it is often
very important to have several (almost) pure dogfighters space controlling
(note : there are other styles of INL play, but this is the most prevalent).
However, if they simply go up and ignore everything else than they will soon
be a losing good INL team. Good INL players dogfight for space, but not
any old random space (a good example is ET..where the Euro's often fight over
space that is useless and then are incapable of contesting space that is
important...either planets or 'safe zones' for their carriers or spots where
their opponents carriers must cut through).
So what defines 'good space'? That's a tougher question, but any planet
that is likely to be contested and a 2x2 region of space in front of said
planet is probably a good start. Add to it the region by your starbase and
much of the space between your carrier and the front line (which is often
'controlled' by stopping enemies at the front vs letting them past). Netrek
is not a game about planets, but a game about space. If you control their
space, you will control the tempo of the game and you will win 9 times out of
10. By controlling their planets, either through big ships at the front or
heavy bombing, you are controlling their space. But since the offense often
has the advantage that the defense has to react to them, it is very difficult
to control every part of the contested space all the time. Which is why
netrek is fun. By being 'good enough' at dogfighting, you allow yourself to
control your spot in space against an equally or slighlty superior opponent.
If you aren't 'good enough', then you will simply be pushed away too quickly
for teammates to come help, be mutualled with, or killed outright. Neither of
these are effective 'control' of the space. By being "great" at dogfighting,
you will often be unable to be pushed away 1:1, unable to be easily mutualed
with and certainly not killed outright. This requires either the carrier to
be more aggressive at helping to kill you (which allows you the opportunity
to mutual with him if he fucks up) or wait for additional escort, which gives
your teammates additional time to respond to your distresses. But if your
teammates don't come, then you will be pushed off, or you will be mutualled
with, or you will be killed outright and the planet taken. Which is why I
say that yes, dogfighting is overrated to some degree...but that doesn't mean
you shouldn't learn it.
-Kevin/Akira/The Real Gaiden
Scheduler for The Real Golden Bears (2-0-0 INL)
"All the tradition, none of the losing"
Tin Man
Michael Mulvaney <mulv...@curly.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Space Controlling. They are space controlling. If you can control
> all the space, you will win. Note that you have to be pretty damn
> good to control all the space. They are giving you all those green
> alert takes so you can make Commander.
Space Controlling is overrated as well. Space controlling should
consist of making sure your carriers are escorted and that enemy carriers
are destroyed. This business of sitting on "the line" and shooting at each
other is just silly. It's terribly distracting, and more often then not
explains why planets get taken: everyone is so busy shooting at each other
they don't notice the important stuff going on behind the line, and when it
comes to a head, they may already be low on fuel or damaged enough to
greatly reduce their ability to stop the important enemy ships. The only
reason to even HAVE a "line" like that would be so that you can get a kill,
then retreat and go carry armies. That's usually not the case, though.
> Dogfighting is a necessary skill in netrek.
I do agree with this. Dogfighting is a necessary skill, just because
if you can dogfight, you can probably phaser-lock, fire torpedoes and dodge
well. It's not, of itself, The Skill of Win though. It's necessary like
being able to watch for cloaked ships is necessary, but it's not
everything.
What are the critical things you have to do in a game?
Get a kill...
Destroy enemy carriers...
Escort friendly carriers...
Take planets...
Destroy the occasional starbase...
Bomb enemy armies....
Of those, only one really involves dogfighting. You dogfight to get a
kill. To do the other things, you use certain componets of your
dogfighting skill, but it's not dogfighting. You could be an excellent
escort, carrier, ogger and bomber and still be a bad dogfighter: when you
escort, you're probably not trying to dodge, unless it's dodge INTO the
torps so you can det them. When carrying, you probably don't want to
dogfight, unless the team has so many armies it doesn't matter much if you
lose the dogfight. When ogging, you generally decloak right beside them
and go beserk on the weapons -- definately not a dogfight. When bombing
you're just trying to waste some armies, not get in battles. When taking a
planet, you might dogfight if necessary, but usually it's wiser not to --
you might want to just dogfight, but they'll want to ogg you.
Remember, the original point of these messages was when someone
suggested dogfighting as a way to determine who advances in the queue. It
implied, to me, that dogfighting was the skill that would determine who is
a good player and who is not, and it's just not the case. It's a factor,
but there's a lot more to it than that.
> Good players are usually good dogfighters. It doesn't matter very
> much if you are in the right place if you can't kill anything
Very true -- and that's basically what I was trying to say.
Dogfighting is useful, but it's not, in and of itself, the determining
factor in finding out who's the best player. If we really only wanted the
best players to advance, there's really no good method of finding out who
it is. Some of the best skills have no stats.
Tin Man
Henrik Bylund <h...@fubar.campus.luth.se> wrote...
> "Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>
> (Learn to fucking quote, at least include the name of the one you're
All you had to do was ask. If you'd rather be a jerk, that's okay
too, but it sets a different mood for the rest of my post than if you had
just said, "You should include the name of the one you're quoting" without
all the extra ego fluff.
Twit.
[So there.]
> quoting. It's a miracle you keep the References: header, but on the
> other hand, it's probably something your newsreader does for yuo
> without you noticing it
Yes, it does. It uses it to know which message is a response to which.
Very useful.
> similar to your mouth talking without your
> brain noticing it)
There you go again, talking smack for no good reason.
Well, I bet it just goes downhill from here.
> You say it's overrated because you never got the hang of it
> yourself. You rather trust skills as buttorping, running
Oh, indeed, my dogfighting skills are not that great. I do well
enough to not be a burden on my team. I would much rather have someone who
knows their limits and plays accordingly than someone who thinks they're a
good dogfighter and just gives up kills all night. A running, buttorping
scout bomber is a HELL of a lot more useful than an in-your-face battleship
who gives out kills like candy because he sucks and doesn't know when to
retreat. Ships are cheap, but there are some players you just don't want
to give a kill to.
>, touch third
> space planets, since this worked out well for you in paradise.
Clearly you never played Paradise at the same time as I, nor have you
witnessed my play in Bronco. Third space runners in Bronco are the worst.
Your baseless accusations do your arguments no good. But we have some more
meaningless drivel to wade through, so let's get to it...
> come and say that dogfighting is overrated just because some twink
> acts like you describe above. I could say that bombing is overrated,
> because yesterday I saw TWICE some twink bomb a core agri @ 5 with his
> DD of loose just as I was about to retake it in my AS +3, if I would
> follow your reasoning.
Bombing isn't really underrated or overrated, just misunderstood.
Clearly, he shouldn't have been bombing an agri in a DD when an AS+3 was
close by. Did you announce your plans to take? I find that 99% of the
time, if I say "Don't bomb ____", people listen. I've already seen your
lack of communication skills, which explains quite a lot. At any rate, I
don't see where you'd equate his twinkiness with overrating bombing.
Sounds like he was underrating the importance, if anything.
> Beating a team with better dogfighters is of course possible, on a
> higher level of netrek. Having good dogfighters to fall back on is
> essential though. Got it?
On a higher level of netrek, you don't have to worry as much about
these things, because on a higher level, they understand that there's a
time and a place for dogfighting, and Anyplace Anytime isn't it.
At any rate, if forced to choose between having good dogfighters to
fall back on or good oggers to fall back on, I'd pick oggers any day. I
don't give a crap if you kill the escorts, just kill the carrier.
I don't know that I want whatever it is you got.
Tin Man
gregory dean dearing <dea...@bank.cis.ohio-state.edu> wrote...
> but it's not so unreasonable that you need to obsess on it. :)
I think it's too late for me to not get obsessed. :) There's a
pretty good amount of obsession on the other end of it, too. I have no
doubt that there are plenty of 2000-kill players who are just as good as
the average 10000-kill player. Effort counts for a lot in the game.
Sometimes the long-time players are more interested in doing what's
ammusing than doing what will help the team, just for variety. In that
case, a player with 10000 kills could be a hinderance.
Never generalize, that's my thought.
(.... Hmmmm.)
Tin Man
"Mr Uncultured Guy" <deh...@musca.unm.edu> wrote in article
<54m36n$9...@lynx.unm.edu>...
> Not to defend tinman, but this really was a case of tyoud utterly
> misunderstanding his post.
Yes.... but I think I've given myself such a severe stereotype here
that it doesn't really matter anymore. I bet I could randomly change my
email address for different posts and notice a dramatic difference in the
responses, just because of the name behind it.
(It's too late for me! Save yourself!)
Tom Holub
In article <01bbc2c4$4f44ad20$109aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
)
) Space Controlling is overrated as well. Space controlling should
)consist of making sure your carriers are escorted and that enemy carriers
)are destroyed.
See, there is where you get into trouble; trying to tell people who know
a lot more about the game then you do what is or isn't overrated.
Your goal is to take more planets than the other team; you normally
do this by dropping more armies. The way to drop more armies is to have
a stronger front, so enemy carriers have a hard time dropping and
friendly carriers have an easier time. This is what "escorting" is in
INL games; keeping the front strong so your carriers can drop. It certainly
is not "flying 2 inches away from the carrier at all times".
-Tom
Tom Holub
In article <01bbc2c1$8e730580$109aa1ce@default>,) You're deluding yourself here. There are plenty of players who seem
)to believe that if they are the #1 dogfighter, they are the #1 Netrek
)player.
Well, I am, but it's just coincidental.
-Tom
Tin Man
> I responded and am responding because your little gems of insight are of
> absolutely no use to the vast majority of the posters on, and most
likely,
> the general readership of this newsgroup.
And your responses to them are, I guess? I do have email. I know
everyone prefers to answer me publically, though, since it helps boost
their ego.
(Hey, that's MY reason anyway.)
> Every clued and semi-clued player already knows that dogfighting w/o
> purpose is a bad thing. Players (assuming they read) learn this by the
> time they've played a month. Just about everyone here has played quite
> a bit longer than that. We've heard your advice before, we've read it,
> we've understood it, long before you started playing the game.
You're deluding yourself here. There are plenty of players who seem
to believe that if they are the #1 dogfighter, they are the #1 Netrek
player. They'll play for years and think this. The better they get at
dogfighting, the more they think this. Most people get over it. Most.
There are certainly a lot of times I've seen "clue" get mad at each other
and challenge each other to a one on one on some server, as if that would
somehow prove who the better player is. Marks them as twinks in my book.
You may know it, I may know it, your brother Bob may know it, but
there are enough people who don't know it to warrent a post.
> And I'm sorry you're so sensitive; I don't feel I was jumping your case.
> Yes, I may have snapped at you, but understand that that is my reaction
to
> yappy little newbies. [story of childhood fear of dachsunds deleted]
"Learn the game, then preach, Tin Boy."
I wouldn't even call that snapping. I'd call that childish prattle.
You now try to make it seem as if you were the intellectual on the high
horse of wisdom, but it's a little too late for that. What you people hate
is that I don't mind playing the news game on your level. You love your
own prattle, but you hate it when it's used against you. How's that work,
anyway?
> Anyhow, what I wanted to add in my defense was this: if you could see in
> the minds of the readers of this newsgroup, read their thoughts, and
> understand what they really think of you, your ability, your knowledge,
> and your eager-beaver little tidbits of advice, you would apprehend a far
> more hostile reaction than you have encountered on RGN, thus far. They
> loathe you in private; at least I'm letting you know how I feel.
Heh. I know. Or at least, I figure that's probably true. This has
always been the case with some Bronco players. I never figured out what it
is about Bronco some players that makes them disproportionally upset when
they hear new ideas or old ideas restated. It is, unfortunately, these few
who do the most posting. They loath me and my persistance, I loath them
and their arrogance, I figure that makes us even. It's always been the
case, and probably always will be.
As for my skill at the game itself, I doubt any of you has much of an
idea. I do one thing a lot of players don't do. I try to win and avoid
making costly mistakes. Even in pickup. I don't base unless the base
isn't really needed, because I know I'm bad at Bronco basing (for now). I
don't carry the team's last 5 armies into a stupid situation or get ogged
by the first cloaked ship that comes along, since I pay attention. Yeah, I
make my mistakes on the field, but I recognize them, and by recognizing
them can correct them in the future. I know of detting. I know of
escorting. I know of bombing, and the cost to the team if you go to bomb
and end up giving someone your kill. I know of kill control, I know of
ogging, I know of watching the enemy pick up armies and notifying the team
of who it was. I read. I communicate. Maybe you don't like the things I
have to say in news, maybe it just aggravates the shit out of you to hear
me say something that's covered in the Holy Documents of Bronco Truth that
everyone calls "the FOCS", but you'd be damn pleased to have a team of
players like me in a pickup game. Usually you'll do a lot worse, because
I'll do one thing a lot of self declared clue won't do: I'll listen. If
the starbase tells me something he wants done, I won't think, "Fuck that,
I've got a much more clever plan", I'll do it, because I'd expect the same
if the roles were reversed.
And one thing I'll NEVER do is come out of the blue and insult someone
just for stating a thought. Yeah, gripe all you want, you could find a lot
worse than me.
The Fugitive
Tin Man wrote:
>
> > After five straight losses a player gets kicked out of the queue.
>
> another ship isn't that great of a skill. Generally, if you want to kill
> another ship, you should probably ogg it. The only reason to dogfight in
> to start taking planets with. Even if you're escorting, you're not
> dogfighting, since a good escort intentially puts himself in a position to
> det all the enemy torps.
Dogfighting is a skill that allows you to work on planet taking. The
ability to defend yourself is a skill that most good planet takers
have. Most good planet takers also watch the galctic alot, and info
planets. They also think about planet choice when attempting to take so
they can actually help their team. Dogfighting allows you to escort
yourself to a planet, rather then spamming your team board with escort
requests for a minutes till you recieve the "Be quiet" message from the
server. Dogfighting ability allows you to get kills almost on demand so
if need be you can carry, provided your team lacks a carrier.
Dogfighting ability allows you to control space and forces your opponent
to send another teammates to push "you " off. dogfightign ability makes
you a threat, which can give you a physcological advantage against a
carrier. Make your oppoenet think twice before he decides to attack you
for your planet. Dogfighting for the sake of dogfighting has a purpose
if that is all you wish to work on, but as a general rule of thumb it is
useless. Dogfightign abilty also allows you to penetrate enemy sapce ,
because once again you can defend yourself.
When I escort I don't think of just dettign mindlessly. I seek to
position my ship between the attacker/defender and planet; I do not
seek to babysit my carrier unless need be. I will try to det only those
torps that will cross the planet bitmap, I expect my carrier to
understand that he can dodge , or raise shields and det. when I escort I
findmyself dogfighting quite a bit to gain control of the planet and
position myself to escort, so I have to be able to dogfight to assert
control of a planet against an enemy who is unclaoked and using weapons.
You played how long ago , tintwink ?
The best players in the game are those that think and adapt, not people
who read the fuckign FOCS and FAQ and think they know how to play
netrek. And, karim >>>>>>>>>> you; deal with it.
-jitesh
Daredevil !
karim
In article <01bbc1fd$32ecffa0$109aa1ce@default>,
>
> I started out being perfectly polite. It's people like you who insist
>on dragging me down to fight on your level. Well, funny thing is, I'll
>play that game. There's a lot of that around here, I notice. Some poor
>newbie comes along with something he thinks is clever, gets responses that
>start with things to the effect of, "Look, worm", then you complain about
>how his followup responses lack respect. Get a clue, dude.
>
I don't call newbies worms. I call lame asses that are newbies who
post about a hundred times about total crap worms.
>
> Bring it. Where the hell do I sign up?
>
Oh, now you are actually going to try playing netrek? Wow.
Here's how you do it:
1) Get a client. You prolly haven't done that yet.
2) Launch it (Double click on your windows or Mac client)
3) Click on a server.
4) Get tooled by Bozos
5) Get eject for failing the clue check
Karim
Jeffrey Nowakowski
> Netrek Clue, off on the right foot again, I see.
Nope, that's just Karim. Don't confuse "clue" with "asshole".
-Jeff (specter)
p.s. And as someone else mentioned, learn how to attribute your
quotes. Your news reader should really be doing this for you.
Tin Man
Trent Piepho <xy...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<54l3f0$5...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>...
> But I guess it's been a bit more than two years. However, several
players
> I got into the game use mine. Maybe we can have a flamefest about whose
> .xtrekrc is better. Don't think I've seen one of those yet.
My input: don't mess around your xtrekrc and make it one big message
window. It's kinda neat, but team messages go whizzing by in all the mess
about people getting kills. You can turn kill messages off, but then you
miss finding out which teammate just got blasted while holding 10 armies,
and you miss the opportunity to scream at him. :)
(It was, I believe, good in Paradise just because ships didn't die as
fast. Paradise didn't have any big battles like Bronco does, which is why
I had to play Bronco for a little bit each month -- keeps you sane. ... I
think.)
Sorry. Back to getting lynched....
Lamont Granquist
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
> My input: don't mess around your xtrekrc and make it one big message
>window. It's kinda neat, but team messages go whizzing by in all the mess
>about people getting kills.
Yeah, but it places everything linearly, so when you see "5++" followed by
"F5+10 Doosh" you don't waste any time searching on the galactic for F5...
--
Lamont Granquist (lamontg @ u.washington.edu) ICBM: 47 39'23"N 122 18'19"W
There comes a point, I'm afraid, where you begin to suspect that if there's
any _real_ truth, it's that the entire multidimentional infinity of the
Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs -- Douglas Adams
SEND NO UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL -- admin@yoursite *will* be notified!
terry chay !
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>> After five straight losses a player gets kicked out of the queue.
> Or we could just shoot all new players on sight. Dogfighting to kill
>another ship isn't that great of a skill.
Only the toughest skill in all of netrek.
> Generally, if you want to kill
>another ship, you should probably ogg it. The only reason to dogfight in
>an attempt to kill a ship and live is because you're trying to get a kill
>to start taking planets with.
This is a common misconception. Many people believe the only
purpose of dogfighting a man down is only about getting kills.
This view sstems from the belief that all the dogfighting skill
in the world won't save you from an lack of clue. But consider:
You also want to preserve the position of your ship. It takes
15.3 seconds to reach the "front" in a CA (c.f. Red Shirt's comments).
I've seen many clue games where a three second difference has made
all the difference (a few which went down to tenths of seconds).
A good dogfighter pushes the opponent back. While he doesn't
necessarily kill he gains space for his teammates to take, he acks as
a sword that cannot be crossed by enemy faking takers. And provides an
overall disruption to the flow of the game as the opponent sees it.
A team of dogfighters are frustrating to play. Frustration
will net you lots of losses.
I'm a horrible dogfighter, but I always appreciate good
dogfighters on my team. There is no such thing as "too many"
green alert takes.
As a taker, I fear good dogfighters on the other team. Oh,
the oggers tend to kill me more often than the dogfighters. But
in the long run, the dogfighters hurt my team more since they are
ALWAYS in position.
To bring a football analogy here. Ogging is like blitzing
the quarterback, while dogfigthers represent the defensive line.
The oggers only get the opportunity because the dogfighters are
doing their job, else the taker can just step up into the pocket
(move in the direction of the oggers and take the planet). The
clued dogfighter is at the line of scrimmage which means they're
ALWAYS in position.
An ogger is out of position for 15.3 seconds.
I've gotten a kill, picked, and taken in less time.
> Even if you're escorting, you're not
>dogfighting, since a good escort intentially puts himself in a position to
>det all the enemy torps.
Actually, the best escort kills or fakes everyone so no enemy
torps ever get near. Of course, you are right in saying escorting is not
equivalent to dogfighting.
Just a week ago I had an excellent SC escort where I went
behind Ald in an SC +2 and drew four enemy chasers while my teammate
proceeded to geno. If I was in position to "det all the enemy torpedoes"
I would have blown up on my teammate and we would have both died.
But there is no doubt that my actions was the best escorting
on the team!
The best escorts aren't the ones who are at the planet always,
they're the ones who make the most of the position they've been given
to help you take. This could mean not killing at all so you can
capture a core planet. In my book, traitoring is a form of bad escorting.
You are right on one point
Dogfight situations appear rarely in netrek (one on one, neutral
contest planet, both sides equal with plasma).
In chess, a pretty combination appears rarely. But that doesn't
stop me from fearing an excellent tactician.
Dogfighting, like tactics, is a skill necessary to execute a
sound strategical play.
Yes, you can beat the "pure" tacticians by making the game simple
and boring, but don't tell me that tactics isn't a useful skill in chess!
terry
--
terrence chay tyc...@alumni.caltech.edu
http://www.physics.uiuc.edu/~tychay/
Tom Youderian
>Not to defend tinman, but this really was a case of tyoud utterly
>misunderstanding his post.
Whatever dehrig, why why why would you want to go to the end of the queue when
you die, wouldn't you just queue-stack to guarantee yourself a slot?
Now maybe, if the queue got to play a happy dogfighting game where only the
strong can enter, then OK, it would be cool, and far cooler than the cluecheck.
Tom
Tin Man
Tom Holub <do...@best.com> wrote in article <54rl4m$n...@shellx.best.com>...
> See, there is where you get into trouble; trying to tell people who know
> a lot more about the game then you do what is or isn't overrated.
It occurs to me that what we really need is probably a seperate INL
newsgroup. This could be a misconception on my part, but it seems that a
lot of things are different in INL versus pickup, and space control may be
one of them. In pickup, space control looks like a waste of time, just
because it's not organized enough. You can't be a one man front for very
long, which is what it comes down to -- there will be a flurry of activity
as one planet gets targeted for a take, then it kind of fans back out. The
'front' of an INL game may be secure enough that a carrier doesn't have
much to worry about, but in a pickup game, counting on the 'front' isn't a
good plan. A clued pickup team can use this to their advantage, just by
having the starbase move in -- the entire front instantly disintegrates, as
the majority of players concentrate on the starbase and ignore the two
ships that are taking all their planets.
> Your goal is to take more planets than the other team; you normally
> do this by dropping more armies. The way to drop more armies is to have
> a stronger front, so enemy carriers have a hard time dropping and
> friendly carriers have an easier time. This is what "escorting" is in
> INL games; keeping the front strong so your carriers can drop. It
certainly
> is not "flying 2 inches away from the carrier at all times".
Yes, now that you specified INL games, it becomes a lot clearer where
you're coming from. When your whole team is competent, it makes sense to
have space control to keep the enemy from going into your back areas. I
forget that most people who read here probably think in terms of INL play
more so than pickup, whereas pretty much everything I've tossed into the
ring had pickup games in mind.
In pickup, it's still something of a good idea, it's just not
practical. Weak sections in the team's space control is the rule rather
than the exception, and as a carrier, you're probably better off with close
escort support than reliance on space control.
In other words, what, in INL, is probably genuine security, is, in
pickup, false secutiry, which can be pretty costly. You just don't know
who that space controller is up there -- or even if that's what they're
doing.
The one time to really space control in pickup games is when you're
out of armies and there's nobody to ogg -- just because there's nothing
else exciting to do.
Just curious, what DOES happen in INL space control? (It's gotta be
better than the pickup version.)
Tin Man
Lamont Granquist <lam...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<54ro36$p...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>...
> Yeah, but it places everything linearly, so when you see "5++" followed
by
> "F5+10 Doosh" you don't waste any time searching on the galactic for
F5...
Also, I recently noticed, it helps when people pop up those huge
multi-line macros. Someone had one of Barney that would have been a good
three window fulls in my previous layout.
Dean Yasuda
Tinman, we know you're a beginner because your advice and experiences
so well fit the mold of a mediocre player used to playing in twink games.
Again, if one's goal is to do fairly well against bad pickup players,
your perceptions, prejudices, and strategies are adequate. But there
are other strategies that work just as well in bad games _and_ are
superior against good competition. Bronco buttheads are not adverse
to your advice because it is different, but because they have, by and
large, held your beliefs at some time in their playing careers and
found it lacking.
And the good advice intermixed among the bad is tiresome. Surely, you
have to understand that. Half-baked ideas in a newsgroup (as opposed to
one-on-one) are the conversational equivalent of line-noise. You are
gratuitously spouting off unhelpful and unsolicited information. This is
nothing new, nor is the act of spamming a newsgroup after you've managed
to alienate its readership. Hell, it's a natural thing -- you would
rather consciously annoy people than unconsciously annoy them. Your
self-esteem is at stake. And besides, there's very little a group of
flame-desensitized trek players is going to do about your childish
prattlings (and childish they are, for no matter how mature- sounding you
try to make them to be, me-against-the-newsgroup tit-for-tat response
threads are just spoiled self-indulgences). This sort of thing seems to
happen all over Bulletins Boards and Usenet, but most frequently on RGN,
which should perhaps be called the Dachsund Kennels of the internet.
Now, regarding the Salad Ingredient of WIN, I offer the following secret
word: FTJYB.
--Totally Teddy Ruxpin
terry chay !
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
> I don't get the hangup over the FOCS. Two years ago, sure. Two years
>ago you had to wade into this newsgroup, there was so much garbage flying
>around. But now.... Hell, we should pick up the FOCS and discuss
>everything in there just to have something else to talk about, maybe
>generate some interest. It's majorly close minded to create of List of
>Things We Won't Talk About Anymore. Netrek censorship? Maybe some of you
>already hasehed it over, but I haven't, and I'm sure plenty of people here
>haven't. This newsgroup isn't just here as a service to long time readers.
When you get this hotheaded does your brain always shut off?
Or isn't it obvious that if you want to "resurrect a FOCS" you have to
be able to at least counter the arguments brought up in the FOCS? I
haven't seen anyone do that. Also, questions in the FOCS tend to be
common misconceptions by netrek beginners (Hence, Dan Damouth's
10,000 kills to clue).
I agree the FOCS needs to be updated. But please don't
be offended when I say that it doesn't need to be updated by you.
If you chill down and take a seat. You'll see people posting
interesting comments that aren't in the FOCS.
You're of the sort who believe that nothing new has been said on
this newsgroup in the last two years. And you probably have garnered this
because the archive hasn't been updated in just as long.
Go back to the archives and read Kevin Bernatz's post on INL
play. I guarantee that's a LOSING strategy in the INL today.
Go back and read Quar's post on ogging. I guarantee that won't
net you the DI in pickup today.
Why? Certainly not because of a lack of clue. Those two are
among the best of all time (I won't say the top ten because we don't
want to ressurect a dead thread).
The answer is because Netrek has changed.
And there are still wonderful and informative postings on r.g.n
I found the thread/argument between the high clue about their use
or nonuse of the "info" window interesting.
I'm certain there will be more interesting threads.
Also, a number of people wonder what is the proper amount of
humility that new players should show to us. Well, I think here
you can take a lesson from a fellow paradiser who wrote...
Path: nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!korie
l!olivea!news.bu.edu!spacefox
From: spac...@bu.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.games.netrek
Subject: KLOC virtuosity
Date: 16 Feb 1995 14:06:10 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3hvm4i$7...@news.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu
Well, I play mostly paradise, and here's what I think of the game.
It was quite an mind expanding experience. I didn't think players
could be so skilled! Usually, the paradise high clued players, I like
to think, 'c'mon fight me! I'll show you!' In other words, pradise
high clue I think are touchable. The players from KLOC are
untouchable. What a different clue scale on bronco! Such a humbling
experience, to think I've accomplished alot after playing paradise
games, then to be reminded I'm still at the bottom of the barrel!
I thought I was playing against a bunch of borgs. I didn't know whether
I should have played, or just watch in awe.
I think I made the mistake of scheduling a scrimmage and not the game.
I'm not looking forward to playing this team again :)
Well, I think we should forget the NEF vs. PEF game. The more interesting
match up would be NEF vs. KLOC.
KLOC - the virtuosos
Thanks for the (very humbling, and comic) games.
(We were beaten so bad, the games weren't even fun)
-Godfrey Degamo,
Fork Tail Devil
spac...@bu.edu
------
P.S. I'm just kidding.
terrry
Tom Youderian
>Not to defend tinman, but this really was a case of tyoud utterly
>misunderstanding his post.
Whatever dehrig, tell Tin Boy to write more coherently. *Why why why* would
you want to go to the end of the queue when you die, wouldn't you just
queue-stack to guarantee yourself a slot?
Now maybe, if the queue got to play a happy dogfighting game where only the
strong can enter, then OK, it would be cool, and far cooler than the cluecheck.
Tom
"chooses red with dra agri fuel vs Holub"
"oops other thread"
Dean Yasuda
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>This could be a misconception on my part, but it seems that a
>lot of things are different in INL versus pickup, and space control may be
>one of them.
Yes, yes, yes! This is the root of the problem that's been causing all
the friction here, lately. The distribution of players and people who
read RGN is very different. People who read RGN generally:
1) Have been playing for a while and enjoy the game.
2) Are actively trying to improve their play.
3) Tend to read, and so have a faster learning curve.
I would not be exaggerating to claim that the median netrek skill level of
RGN participants is above the 80th percentile w/r to man-hours played, and
above the 90th percentile w/r to players who have played 10 hrs or more.
The focus of this newsgroup is on clue games and INL games because once
you reach this skill level, the basics of pickup play are ingrained, and
the effectiveness of strategy in pickup is obscured by twink-generated
randomness from both sides.
A few of the many major differences in play caused by clue are:
1) Planetary defense
2) Army defense
3) Phaser locking ability
From this, it follows that escorts must be good dogfighters. Let me
'splain:
In a pickup game, an median scenario for a singly escorted
front-line take might be: E->C->D. The arrival time at the
planet would be escort, followed by carrier a couple seconds
later, followed by defender. The escort simply needs to
slow the defender down and det torps and the carrier will
make the drop, and probably escape.
In a high-clue game, this scenario is a defensive breakdown,
and is a relatively rare occurrence on the front line and
in enemy space. A more common arrival sequence might be:
E->D->D->C, where the escort and carrier want to maximize
their taking chances while preserving the carrier's option
to bail.
In the clue game, the escort needs not just to establish
position, but also to hold off two advancing clue players
long enough for the carrier to drop. This means being able
dogfight well -- to use a positional advantage to kill one
and defend before dying, or team with the carrier to kill
both quickly. And pursuit is imminent.
A similar, smaller-scale situation occurs during bombing.
Each bomb is contested, so ...
I gotta go.
Steve Lamb
On 26 Oct 1996 03:36:05 GMT, terry chay ! <tyc...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
> I'm a horrible dogfighter, but I always appreciate good
>dogfighters on my team. There is no such thing as "too many"
>green alert takes.
Not to mention that a good dogfighter will also provide some awesome
defense against takes. Saw one guy yesterday in a CA take down a BB and CA
esc and still have enough to ogg the carrier.
--
- - - ---===+[ ]+===--- - - -
Steve C. Lamb
Go way away, very far away, take your leave
I'll never hate you, I'll never think of you
And I'll never grieve
-- Happy Rhodes, "If so..."
Hugh Moore
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>
> Or we could just shoot all new players on sight. Dogfighting to kill
>another ship, you should probably ogg it. The only reason to dogfight in
>an attempt to kill a ship and live is because you're trying to get a kill
>dogfighting, since a good escort intentially puts himself in a position to
>det all the enemy torps.
While agree with you that people are getting too anti-newbie these
days, I can't say that I agree with your analysis of netrek. You're
expressing a mid-level veiw of the game. Most players take time to develp
the propper level of disdain for living. They then need to go back and
develp an understanding of space control. Space control is why one needs
to kill and live. A good player knows when to live and when to die.
> This, incidentally, is why the 10,000 kill rule is fundamentally
>flawed. It's about as clever as using kill ratio as a basis.
>
10,000 kills is a highly abitrary number. It simply represents a
great many hours of play. The theory is that if you have a great many
hours of play, you will understand concepts like space control, Ogging,
Escorting, Detting properly, AS bombing, Etc. and won't spout off a lot of
nonsense like Lambesque newbies.
-ZZnew guy
Tin Man
terry chay ! <tyc...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
<54s0v5$d...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
> A good dogfighter pushes the opponent back. While he doesn't
> necessarily kill he gains space for his teammates to take, he acks as
> a sword that cannot be crossed by enemy faking takers. And provides an
> overall disruption to the flow of the game as the opponent sees it.
>
> A team of dogfighters are frustrating to play. Frustration
> will net you lots of losses.
Yes, but in pickup, rather than being the sword that cannot be
crossed, you're usually the strong point that everyone goes around. While
you're holding the middle, the carriers will slip by on the right and left.
In the INL, you would have enough good dogfighters to hold a line, so to
BE one of those dogfighters would be a great part of the team. If I see a
big INL clue space controlling in pickup, I laugh. While he protects one
area, I go to another and take planets. He may be a great dogfighter, but
his team can't fill up the line. If he had just ogged....
In pickup, to space control is to be the strong link in a weak chain.
It ends up that your abilities are wasted as the enemy team learns to
specifically target or avoid you. It's worth it to them to waste their
ship (and the travel time) if they can kill yours in the process, because
they know the rest of the team won't be backing you up.
Ideally, space control is still a good tactic in pickup, but
realistically, it's not wise to try it, and if you're the carrier, it's not
wise to rely on it.
Another example would be ogging. I mentioned once that ogging ability
is more useful than dogfighting ability, and once again this applies to
pickup play. In pickup, being a skilled dogfighter, as I mentioned, is
minimally useful -- you can't be everywhere. Having skilled oggers is what
can determine the outcome. While I imagine it takes several good
dogfighters to have space control, it really only takes one or two oggers.
In effect, it's the difference between knowing your team will work with you
(INL) and when it won't (pickup). One man space control isn't worth much,
but one man ogging can do a lot of damage in pickup.
The ogging itself is different, no doubt. Usually I don't wait for
the carrier to be in the open, I wait for it to be in or behind a group of
his team's ships. I do this because I know that there's a very good chance
his teammates can't phasorlock a slug, that he'll be distracted by all the
ships in the area, and that he'll have a false sense of security from being
in such a crowd. The reality of the ogg is generally that he doesn't see
me coming, his teammates can't hit me during a cloaked maxwarp run, and if
anything, the detted torps (and sometimes explosions) of his teammates only
help me make the kill. I can say this because it's exactly what I've been
doing, with a great deal of success.
I have no doubt that this tactic wouldn't work at all in an INL game.
Pickup is to INL almost what Paradise is to Bronco. I get the impression
that some of the people here are morons, because I thought we were
discussing pickup tactics, and they think I'm a moron because they thought
we were discussing INL tactics. Just as pickup tactics are twinky in INL
play, INL tactics are twinky in pickup play. If you played pickup with the
impression that the enemy team knows how to dogfight, you'd end up wasting
a lot of time holding back from actions you should have gone through with,
and likewise if you did things in INL that worked in pickup, you'd get
crushed because they can actually phasorlock you.
Probably the difference could be summed up with the Pickup Catch
Phrase:
"Just go."
The implication is that you should "just go", because what you see is
all the help you're gonna get, and chances are the enemy won't be able to
stop you anyway. I doubt this is the case in the INL.
Vincent Louie - AERE/F92
karim (ka...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote:
: Oh, now you are actually going to try playing netrek? Wow.
: Here's how you do it:
: 1) Get a client. You prolly haven't done that yet.
: 2) Launch it (Double click on your windows or Mac client)
: 3) Click on a server.
: 4) Get tooled by Bozos
4.1) Message all and call Bozos clueless DI geeks
: 5) Get eject for failing the clue check
: Karim
--
that vlouie twink
Vincent Louie - AERE/F92
gregory dean dearing (dea...@bank.cis.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: For clarification, the 10,000 kill rule of thumb is "You can't have
: 10,000 kills and be a bad dogfighter". I'd say it's not true in all
: cases, but it's not so unreasonable that you need to obsess on it. :)
Where's my cheque damouth? What's taking you so long to investigate my
case? I know I'm still under warrantee - I got the receipts to prove it.
--
vl
Damn Yankees - always reneging on their guarantees.
John Morgan Salomon
In article <54o4fs$a...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Dean Yasuda <dumb...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Hey, I never said dogfighting for its own sake was helpful. It's a
>lot like dribbling in basketball. Every shitty basketball player learns
>how dribble, usually with his head down with no clue what's happening
>on the court. But every good basketball player can dribble decently.
Ok, I agree thoroughly--I just thought that whoever started this meant that
"dogfighting is the most important part of the game and if you're not a great
dogfighter, you'll just suck, period".
>LaggU retired last December. After that, most of us played no Netrek
>except for games, and so went winless in '96. I've been cold
>turkey for six months now.
That's too bad; I liked LaggU. Some of the old-timers (wasn't wedgie
on the team too?) should get together and at least get some of the newer
UWash people playing again so that it doesn't die--it'd be nice to have as
much continuity in INL teams as possible.
>And you guys had to go and throw the ball away.
Well, we're all kind of mad at Pat Barnes for passing it to the guy's
kneecap after that comeback :)
>--Teddy Ruxpin
-John
Fuzzy Bunny
--
The Rev. John Morgan Salomon
jo...@csua.berkeley.edu
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~john
karim
In article <01bbc2c4$4f44ad20$109aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>Michael Mulvaney <mulv...@curly.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>> Space Controlling. They are space controlling. If you can control
>> all the space, you will win. Note that you have to be pretty damn
>> good to control all the space. They are giving you all those green
>> alert takes so you can make Commander.
>
> Space Controlling is overrated as well. Space controlling should
>other is just silly. It's terribly distracting, and more often then not
>explains why planets get taken: everyone is so busy shooting at each other
>they don't notice the important stuff going on behind the line, and when it
>comes to a head, they may already be low on fuel or damaged enough to
>greatly reduce their ability to stop the important enemy ships. The only
>reason to even HAVE a "line" like that would be so that you can get a kill,
>then retreat and go carry armies. That's usually not the case, though.
>
Ok twinky, instead of ripping your post apart technically I offer
this challenge:
You are the captain of an INL team. You have 8 players who are
skilled, experienced and know the game. What will your strategy be
to win a game vs Golden Bears, and what would your strategy (if different)
be vs an all CMU team?
If you don't know enough about INL level play, don't feel bad, you
can at least pretend.
Karim
karim
In article <54s965$1...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Dean Yasuda <dumb...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>have to understand that. Half-baked ideas in a newsgroup (as opposed to
>one-on-one) are the conversational equivalent of line-noise. You are
>
yeah, go read alt.angst or that vga planet newsgroup. Tinman
spouts off his half baked ideas there too.
I agree that tinman should go play bolo, or at least pretend to play
bolo and go bother the bolo newsgroup.
So why don't you even sign your name to your posts Mr. Baswell?
Karim
Sudish Joseph
In article <01bbc38b$d8ecf920$339aa1ce@default>,
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
> I have no doubt that this tactic wouldn't work at all in an INL game.
> Pickup is to INL almost what Paradise is to Bronco. I get the impression
> that some of the people here are morons, because I thought we were
> discussing pickup tactics, and they think I'm a moron because they thought
What you described is st00pid enough in pickup.
> we were discussing INL tactics. Just as pickup tactics are twinky in INL
> play, INL tactics are twinky in pickup play. If you played pickup with the
> impression that the enemy team knows how to dogfight, you'd end up wasting
> a lot of time holding back from actions you should have gone through with,
> and likewise if you did things in INL that worked in pickup, you'd get
> crushed because they can actually phasorlock you.
Look, we could spend time discussing what's a good thing to do when
you've got 5 seconds of experience, 5 mins of experience, 5 hours of
experience, etc. All of it would be just as boring and clueless as your
descriptions above.
If you want to write long posts, at least assume that your opponents
have a clue. Anything Works Against Twinks.
-Sudish
Mr Uncultured Guy
Tom Youderian (tyoud) wrote:
: >Not to defend tinman, but this really was a case of tyoud utterly
: >misunderstanding his post.
: Whatever dehrig, why why why would you want to go to the end of the queue when
: you die, wouldn't you just queue-stack to guarantee yourself a slot?
: Now maybe, if the queue got to play a happy dogfighting game where only the
: strong can enter, then OK, it would be cool, and far cooler than the cluecheck.
Now you're utterly misunderstanding my post. He said something to the
effect of "it might be cool to go to the end of the wait queue after
every death."
You replied "dumbass, you don't go to the end of the wait queue after
every death"
And I said "Tom is confused."
Clearer now?
-Dan
--
Dan Ehrig |Veni. Vici. Machiavelli.
(job classified) |I came.
Work Phone: (505) 277-8137 |I conquered.
http://www.unm.edu/~dehrig |I pretended it was my right to do that.
Dean Yasuda
dumb...@u.washington.edu (Dean Yasuda) writes:
> In the clue game, the escort needs not just to establish
> position, but also to hold off two advancing clue players
> long enough for the carrier to drop. This means being able
> dogfight well -- to use a positional advantage to kill one
> and defend before dying, or team with the carrier to kill
> both quickly. And pursuit is imminent.
A co-worker of mine told me of the first time he understood what good
escorting was all about. He was still an advanced beginner, with little
planet-taking experience, and was on MUCUS PIG's side in pickup. Mucus
issued the command, "TAKE PLANETS. I WILL ESCORT YOU." and so he did just
that, picking up armies and cloaking off toward targets. The planets were
defended, oggers would come in, but Mucus would consistently take out two
of them, readily leaving broad planet-taking windows. He was incredible.
Aggressive escorting requires dogfighting skill, a degree of visual
communication between taker and escort, and experience to know how
and when to use it. It is a requirement to REWLAGE, however.
> A similar, smaller-scale situation occurs during bombing.
> Each bomb is contested, so ...
...the ability for a scout bomber to be effective depends not on
circumstances and opportunities, which rely on maneuvering and force.
Superior phaser-locking ability tilts the balance toward dogfighting and
away from ogging and overly aggressive bombing.
A frustrated bomber unaccustomed to the pressure of clue bombing is
a huge liability to his team. Cloaked bee-lining or losing to CA ASW give
up some of the worst PCC's possible -- kills given to backfield enemies
near pops.
Dogfighting skill for escorting and, to a lesser extent, bombing, becomes
crucial as clue level rises. A planet taker needs to know when and how to
uncloak, support his escort, while avoiding oggs.
The other statement inappropriate to clue games was that one dogfights to
gain kills. This works in pickup because free kills are relatively
available, and other tasks are not as fight-intensive as in clue games. In
a clue game, if you are in a escort-defend situation, a bomb-ASW
situation, or an ogg-rescue situation, the players involved understand
that collectively controlling the target is usually more important than
controlling kills. Participating in these tasks -- being in the right
place, with the right intentions, at the right time -- will earn you kills
more readily and more productively than throwing down the gauntlet at the
front line.
Reasons that elaborate discussions on low-clue pickup startegy are silly:
1. People often have strange priorities. For example, playing for
ratio, playing solely for dogfighting practice, playing for DI
(in which case it is to your benefit to keep your planet count
between 5 and 7), plasma-scumming, playing by pleasure
differential (you "win" as long as you make your opponents have
less fun than you). How can you develop a team strategy if not
everyone is in to win?
2. It pays to affect who plays, often more so than playing well. For
instance, are there bad players on the other team who are easily irked?
Cajole them to keep them in the game and keep the free kills coming.
I have kept bad players in the game by issuing "(x), ogged out of the
game" messages after _any_ enemy slot cleared. Most everyone understood
it was a joke, but some guys got absolutely incensed and would not leave
for fear of being "ogged out", too. One guy came back into the game after
reading he got "ogged out" on a friend's terminal. Another newbie chased
me around for 30 minutes one night after everyone else had left, dying
12-0, trying to put me in my place, ranting all the while. Eventually,
mercifully, I quit out.
Is there a tight-assed clue player on the other team? Secretly drop
armies on third space planets. When he finds out you have "ruined" the
universe, he will call you nasty names and leave. Then you can geno. Or
play a scout bomber and try and get as many newbies following you off into
third space as possible. Do what you can to make the good players on the
other team leave or switch.
Are there shitty players on your team who don't read? Send them
performance reviews through E-mail.
3. If winning is important to you, you are eventually going to want to
play in higher clue games. Learning twink-game-specialized strategies
will necessitate eventual retraining, and can lead to bad habits.
Learning clue strategies should suffice for the twink games, and
make the transition to clue games less painful.
--Teddy Ruxpin
Salad Ingredient of WIN Clue restated and embellished:
Secret Word: FTJYB (and NTRFY).
james vo!ker
Jeffrey Nowakowski <jef...@denali.ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
What a pair. I'm already laughing at the genetic possibilities.
"We've found some playmates for your son, Mr. Patel."
>> Netrek Clue, off on the right foot again, I see.
>Nope, that's just Karim. Don't confuse "clue" with "asshole".
This is like listening to the retards in the back of the bus tell
knock-knock jokes without punchlines.
I've gotta ask, though: who's more ashamed of the association, Jamie or
Jeffie?
>Your news reader should really be doing this for you.
Your newsreader should really be alias rn='exit'
--Jim
rintintinman -> learning pain
jeffno -> learning to share his pain
--
-- j v
`-./ \.-'
karim
In article <01bbc2d0$0da62900$109aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>"Mr Uncultured Guy" <deh...@musca.unm.edu> wrote in article
><54m36n$9...@lynx.unm.edu>...
>> Not to defend tinman, but this really was a case of tyoud utterly
>> misunderstanding his post.
>
>that it doesn't really matter anymore. I bet I could randomly change my
>email address for different posts and notice a dramatic difference in the
>responses, just because of the name behind it.
>
>
> (It's too late for me! Save yourself!)
>
But if you posted enough from a different name Jamie, you would be
branded as an idiot in an equal number of posts, just as your tinman
name has the "idiot" tag tacked on.
Karim
terry chay !
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>Michael Mulvaney <mulv...@curly.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>> Space Controlling. They are space controlling. If you can control
>> all the space, you will win. Note that you have to be pretty damn
>> good to control all the space. They are giving you all those green
>> alert takes so you can make Commander.
> Space Controlling is overrated as well. Space controlling should
>consist of making sure your carriers are escorted and that enemy carriers
>are destroyed. This business of sitting on "the line" and shooting at each
>other is just silly. It's terribly distracting, and more often then not
I was curious if anyone else thinks that what Tin Man is expounding
represents the state of broncotrek as it was about 5 years ago? I didn't
play then but the archives seem to bear me out.
For the record (not to put words in his mouth, so lets assume
my interpretation is): "Dogfighting is pointless (except to get a kill),
ogging gets the job done much better."
To me, that tends to sound like what it was like about the time
of Quar's classic post. Anyone else tend to think so?
Also, who and what changed this? My believe is space-control did
and from the archives could we credit MUCUS PIG for this?
Any oldies care to comment?
terry
terry chay !
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
> It occurs to me that what we really need is probably a seperate INL
>newsgroup. This could be a misconception on my part, but it seems that a
>lot of things are different in INL versus pickup, and space control may be
>one of them. In pickup, space control looks like a waste of time, just
True, you can be much more effective for your skill if you're
doing something other than space controlling. OTOH, there are people
who are one man fronts and they're not bases (anyone can be a one
man base front in pickup, but then they just take around you :-( )
A wonderful hint for pickup if you want to practice space
control is to judge the front. If it has a single key fuel planet
go there and dogfight. It is wonderfully disruptive and a lot
of fun and gret practice.
It won't last long though. Either you'll lose the planet
permanently to a 4 on 1 or your team takes their entire front.
But it will net you a wonderful skill. You won't be afraid
of picking off the front and taking immediately. A good taker takes
faster than a poor one because not only does she net kills faster,
and can escort her own takes, but also she doesn't have to run to core
to take (she is confident even if her ship is not at 100%).
terry
OBEverythingWorksAgainstTheTwinks
When you are low on gas and their are enemies around but there is a
pop nearby (theirs or yours if you have kill). Go toward it at warp 2.
At a certain point, the guy will piss torps at you, then you can accelerate
around and go for another pass. Either way, you either pick the planet
or gain fuel relatively with each pass.
A clue person will go toward you at low warp and phaser you down.
As Erik once said, "Even admirals can't dodge phasers"
terry chay !
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
Oh yeah, one more thing. Space controlling is sometimes useful in
pickup. One way to turn your team around as ROM is to go across the gap
and simply space control them away from the fuel planets. It's very
disrupting if the takers know they can't fuel there without a contest and
they can't run there after getting a kill.
A judge of your ability cannot be found in pickup. Almost every
team I join comes back from core to drop the other team into core. But
that's because I stay on for a while, not because of any skill of mine.
terry
karim
In article <JEFFNO.96O...@denali.ccs.neu.edu>,>>> Look worm,
>
>> Netrek Clue, off on the right foot again, I see.
>
>Nope, that's just Karim. Don't confuse "clue" with "asshole".
>
>
>p.s. And as someone else mentioned, learn how to attribute your
>quotes. Your news reader should really be doing this for you.
Laugh, at least tinman has an excuse, he doesn't have hundreds of hours
behind him like you do.
I feel sorry for you specter, if I sucked as bad as you do with the
number of hours that you have, I would go play some easier game... Uno?
Karim
karim
In article <01bbc301$5c122fe0$679aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>Tom Holub <do...@best.com> wrote in article <54rl4m$n...@shellx.best.com>...
>> See, there is where you get into trouble; trying to tell people who know
>> a lot more about the game then you do what is or isn't overrated.
>
>newsgroup. This could be a misconception on my part, but it seems that a
No. That is silly. INL is just a concentration of better players.
Pickup players move on to INL/clue games when they get bored of
smashing twinks at wormhole/bigbang (RIP).
>lot of things are different in INL versus pickup, and space control may be
>one of them. In pickup, space control looks like a waste of time, just
Wrong again. Space control is important, though in a limited fashion.
If I am playing pickup, some twink on my team will always carry. So
I control. And since pickup players aren't at INL level, I can
easily control 2-3 of them, which frees up a lot of my team. Hell,
in pickup, I can cloak in an AS and keep 3 twinks busy shooting at me.
>because it's not organized enough. You can't be a one man front for very
>long, which is what it comes down to -- there will be a flurry of activity
You can if you have good dog fighting skills, but your previous posts
seem to conclude that you dont' think dog fighting is very important.
>as one planet gets targeted for a take, then it kind of fans back out. The
Targetting one planet is a totally stupid idea unless you are in LPS mode.
You need to be flexible in carrying. If your not, then you aren't a
very good carrier. If you see a team mate fixating on a planet, it
should be your responsibility to tell them not to fixate via a private
message.
>'front' of an INL game may be secure enough that a carrier doesn't have
>much to worry about, but in a pickup game, counting on the 'front' isn't a
>good plan. A clued pickup team can use this to their advantage, just by
>having the starbase move in -- the entire front instantly disintegrates, as
>the majority of players concentrate on the starbase and ignore the two
>ships that are taking all their planets.
Laugh. Your lack of clue games is showing again. You don't "fixate"
on the starbase, you ogg it or get out of the way. You basically
ignore it to a certain extent until you sync for an ogg.
>
>
>> Your goal is to take more planets than the other team; you normally
>> do this by dropping more armies. The way to drop more armies is to have
>> a stronger front, so enemy carriers have a hard time dropping and
>> friendly carriers have an easier time. This is what "escorting" is in
>> INL games; keeping the front strong so your carriers can drop. It
>certainly
>> is not "flying 2 inches away from the carrier at all times".
>
> Yes, now that you specified INL games, it becomes a lot clearer where
>you're coming from. When your whole team is competent, it makes sense to
>have space control to keep the enemy from going into your back areas. I
>forget that most people who read here probably think in terms of INL play
>more so than pickup, whereas pretty much everything I've tossed into the
>ring had pickup games in mind.
INL is just an extention of pickup, the players are better and
the games are timed. If pickup players were better, the games
would look a lot more like inl.
Hell, stop by wormhole or whereever in the evenings and you will most
likely have 4-5 "good" players. Even with only 4-5 good players,
the game looks a lot more like INL.
> In pickup, it's still something of a good idea, it's just not
>practical. Weak sections in the team's space control is the rule rather
>than the exception, and as a carrier, you're probably better off with close
>escort support than reliance on space control.
No, if you are assuming that your team mates are twinks, then the last
thing I want is a twink flying on top of me "escorting" me. I want that
twink fighting at a front line planet. If he clears it, I take it and
he is an "escort." If he gets tooled, he has tied up enemies at the planet
and I take something else.
> In other words, what, in INL, is probably genuine security, is, in
>pickup, false secutiry, which can be pretty costly. You just don't know
>who that space controller is up there -- or even if that's what they're
>doing.
Genuine security? Geesh, you are just talking out your ass on this one.
I don't know what to say except play an INL game instead of just
speculating and making up fantasy stories about genuine security in INL.
Funny shit though.
>
> The one time to really space control in pickup games is when you're
>out of armies and there's nobody to ogg -- just because there's nothing
>else exciting to do.
Wrong, you bomb. Or you ASW. Or you cause confusion. Or you waste
the enemies fuel. Or you stupid ogg them out of your space. Or you
organize a base ogg. Or you escort a carrier. There is always
something exciting to do.
> Just curious, what DOES happen in INL space control? (It's gotta be
>better than the pickup version.)
>
You need to try it. You sound like a virgin asking what sex is like.
I could tell you, but you still wouldn't get it.
Karim
Tom Holub
In article <54uo2k$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
terry chay ! <tyc...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
)
) For the record (not to put words in his mouth, so lets assume
)my interpretation is): "Dogfighting is pointless (except to get a kill),
)ogging gets the job done much better."
)
) To me, that tends to sound like what it was like about the time
)of Quar's classic post. Anyone else tend to think so?
)
) Also, who and what changed this? My believe is space-control did
)and from the archives could we credit MUCUS PIG for this?
Yes, that's definitely the way it used to be, and lemme tell you, it's damned
hard getting the players from that era to adjust.
What changed it was two things: improved galactic awareness, and improved
phaserlocking. Back when ogging was prevalent, there were maybe 30 people
who were capable of phaserlocking; now, almost the entire INL (100+ players)
and many non-INL players can. Being cloaked becomes much less desirable
when you're fighting someone who can phaserlock.
But more than that, carriers started to realize that if they stayed uncloaked,
they could usually deal with oggers themselves. There's not really a way for
oggers to counter butt-torping, so ogging has become ineffective.
-Tom
karim
In article <01bbc2d0$e8e49060$109aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>Trent Piepho <xy...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
><54l3f0$5...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>...
>> But I guess it's been a bit more than two years. However, several
>players
>> I got into the game use mine. Maybe we can have a flamefest about whose
>> .xtrekrc is better. Don't think I've seen one of those yet.
>
> My input: don't mess around your xtrekrc and make it one big message
>window. It's kinda neat, but team messages go whizzing by in all the mess
>about people getting kills. You can turn kill messages off, but then you
>miss finding out which teammate just got blasted while holding 10 armies,
>and you miss the opportunity to scream at him. :)
> (It was, I believe, good in Paradise just because ships didn't die as
>fast. Paradise didn't have any big battles like Bronco does, which is why
>I had to play Bronco for a little bit each month -- keeps you sane. ... I
>think.)
>
> Sorry. Back to getting lynched....
>
Get better, and trust me, you will know who carries 10 armies on your
team.
Even with your message window closed.
Karim
Tom Holub
In article <01bbc301$5c122fe0$679aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
)Tom Holub <do...@best.com> wrote in article <54rl4m$n...@shellx.best.com>...
)> See, there is where you get into trouble; trying to tell people who know
)> a lot more about the game then you do what is or isn't overrated.
)
) It occurs to me that what we really need is probably a seperate INL
)newsgroup.
No, what we need is for people to confine strategy discussions to games in
which teams don't suck. Anything works against twinks.
) This could be a misconception on my part, but it seems that a
)lot of things are different in INL versus pickup, and space control may be
)one of them. In pickup, space control looks like a waste of time, just
)because it's not organized enough.
It doesn't need to be organized; if everyone just maxwarps to the front when
they get in the game, that's good enough.
) You can't be a one man front for very
)long, which is what it comes down to -- there will be a flurry of activity
)as one planet gets targeted for a take, then it kind of fans back out. The
)'front' of an INL game may be secure enough that a carrier doesn't have
)much to worry about, but in a pickup game, counting on the 'front' isn't a
)good plan.
In a twink game. In a clued pickup game, it's the right thing to do.
If the twinks would try to do it, it would also be the right thing to do in
a twink game. In games where your team is not maxwarping to the front,
there's nothing that can be done, and strategy discussions are moot.
) Yes, now that you specified INL games, it becomes a lot clearer where
)you're coming from. When your whole team is competent, it makes sense to
)have space control to keep the enemy from going into your back areas. I
)forget that most people who read here probably think in terms of INL play
)more so than pickup, whereas pretty much everything I've tossed into the
)ring had pickup games in mind.
Again, the "strategy" in pickup games is "scum DI, have fun, maybe try to
work on a specific skill".
) Just curious, what DOES happen in INL space control? (It's gotta be
)better than the pickup version.)
Ships maxwarp to the front and then start doing stuff. It's not brain surgery.
-Tom
Tom Holub
In article <01bbc476$77a66840$5a9aa1ce@default>,)> If you want to write long posts, at least assume that your opponents
)> have a clue. Anything Works Against Twinks.
)
) Yes, and there's something to be said for pickup strategy in that.
Yes, and the strategy is "get your twinks to do something useful", because
nothing that any one person does is going to get a pickup game past 15-5.
I can make cases for ogging, space controlling, base play, scumming, and
scout bombing all changing a game from 15-5 one way to 15-5 the other; if
you want to actually finish the game, or if you want to actually LEARN
SOMETHING about the game, you have to use strategies which wok against
non-twinks.
-Tom
terry chay !
"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
> Pickup stuff deleted.
There are more efficent ways to use your ship than the ways you
just mentioned. Your advice is certainly skill-limited. If your skill
was better you could do more with your ship and that would involve
doing things different than "waiting for the taker to become distracted".
Oh, and I'd advise against laughing at the clue dogfighting.
A lot of people like to PRACTICE by fighting 3 pickup players at once on
a contested fuel planet. We're still helping our team out, though
we could probably help them more by taking or bombing.
But then you could be helping your team out more by bombing
than ogging, but I don't see you doing that.
Tin Man
karim <ka...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote in article
<54ubd3$3...@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>...
> So why don't you even sign your name to your posts Mr. Baswell?
Most people just look at the "From" line. Works for me. You're
pretty obsessed. Perhaps you should take a stress pill and think things
over.
Tin Man
Sudish Joseph <sud...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<yviahgnh...@atreides.mindspring.com>...
> What you described is st00pid enough in pickup.
If it works, and works well, and works consistantly, you could hardly
justify calling it "st00pid". There's a few general pickup players that
can phasorlock just about anything and notice an incoming ogger virtually
all of the time, but that's by far the exception. To say it's stupid just
tells me you're arguing for the sake of disagreeing with me, since it DOES
work.
> If you want to write long posts, at least assume that your opponents
> have a clue. Anything Works Against Twinks.
Yes, and there's something to be said for pickup strategy in that.
For instance, the way a lot of critical plays are missed because the player
wouldn't make the move. Most likely they were giving the enemy too much
credit. Pickup games wouldn't last so long if most people thought,. "Hey,
these aren't INL players... why don't I just go." It works more than it
should, and it's not all that clever, but it beats the 20 minute LPS that
happens in nearly all pickup games.
In essence, single player aggressiveness pays off a lot more in pickup
than it likely does in INL, and to ignore that is to draw out the game
needlessly. Anything works against a twink except hesitating, and there's
a good deal of that.
Schrenk
Tin Man wrote:
>
> It occurs to me that what we really need is probably a seperate INL
I must disagree. I think the best part about this group is that
low-intermediate skilled players like me can read and learn from clued
players AND ask an occasional question without being out of place (and
getting barbequed). Of course there are still those who flame any
non-admiral who asks questions, but for the most part the responses of
clues are very informative. I think an INL newsgroup would be worse for
the game as a whole.
Peter Schrenk
Tatsuya Murase
On 24 Oct 1996 22:52:48 GMT, Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
>
>[spew deleted]
>
Look. Please be silent about the value of dogfighting until you have
been properly tooled so hard in an INL style game that you felt you
were the most useless slot on the team. All the great planning and
strategy in the world is useless if EUTH! and jitesh can just steamroll
over your position. You won't be able to fully comprehend this on
pickup, I guarantee that.
--tots
--
---------------
to...@ugcs.caltech.edu
Hugh Moore
terry chay ! <tyc...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> Also, who and what changed this? My believe is space-control did
>
I'd agree about space control, but not about MUCUS PIG. We started
toying arround with space-control plans as far back as the CMU internal
league. At the time, the plan consisted, mostly, of putting one or two
space controler on the front (B.L.E.P., Yupa, and gc00 being good examples).
During the first 2 seasons of INL play, space control lost some ground because
most games were not very close, but in the third season, the huge clue-gaps
began to close, and it began to come out that Space control was a key. Many
expected Xgolems to beat Side Salad, but SS's space control plan beat out
XG's SC and Ogger plan. During the next season, SNL rocked the world with a
Space control game that TWNN (MUCUS PIG), SYM (Stilletto), and IEIEO
(ZZnew guy) imitated to great success. Things have settled down now.
I tend to give creadit to Ceri and Warsong (Who designed the SNL plan
more than to MUCUS PIG.
-ZZnew guy
Tom Holub
In article <slrn57aagh....@web1.calweb.com>,
Steve Lamb <morp...@calweb.com> wrote:
)On 27 Oct 1996 08:57:21 -0800, Tom Holub <do...@best.com> wrote:
)
)>) It occurs to me that what we really need is probably a seperate INL
)>)newsgroup.
)
)>No, what we need is for people to confine strategy discussions to games in
)>which teams don't suck. Anything works against twinks.
)
) Fine, fine, fine... We've established that. We've also established
)that anyone who posts their experiences here in hopes of discussion gets
)nothing but constant flames to wait until (pick your favorite variable clue
)level here). That is not why *I* come to this group and I'm sure, as much
)as those doing the flaming may enjoy it, that is not why they come to this
)group either.
Do you really think that newbies would be helped by creating a group that
most clued players wouldn't want to read?
Of course you do. You obviously don't have any interest in learning
anything.
)have a place to direct those newbies. The newbies can have a place to
)discuss their experiences and get discussion going so they can become better
)at it. Any kindly clue that wants to help newbies (w/o flames, please) can
)come to the other newsgroup and do so.
1500 DD idiots arguing over whether it's right to fly warp 6 or warp 7
when you're trying to plink-torp a kill aren't going to make anyone better.
-Tom
Daniel Damouth
In article <01bbc38b$d8ecf920$339aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
...
> Yes, but in pickup, rather than being the sword that cannot be
>crossed, you're usually the strong point that everyone goes around. While
>you're holding the middle, the carriers will slip by on the right and left.
> In the INL, you would have enough good dogfighters to hold a line, so to
>BE one of those dogfighters would be a great part of the team. If I see a
>big INL clue space controlling in pickup, I laugh. While he protects one
>area, I go to another and take planets. He may be a great dogfighter, but
>his team can't fill up the line. If he had just ogged....
Much of what you say in this post is misinformed. Sure, if I ogged you,
I'd have a good chance of getting you, but then while I was doing that,
another carrier of your team might take a planet. Frankly, it's more
efficient for me to stay between your carriers and where they want to go
than it is to chase them around individually. That's the essence of
space control.
Let's assume your team has several carriers, you among them, and I'm
a much better dogfighter than you are. Several things could happen.
I could ogg you, spew my huge TUBERED macro to the all board, and lose
my front line to the other carriers. Or, I could stay by my planets,
holding off any carriers on my side of the galaxy, forcing them
into the area where my twinky teammates happen to be in hopes that
they will do something. Maybe they will and maybe they won't, but
that's the best I can do. The classic pitfall clue will fall into
in this situation is to ogg successfully and still be genoed, rather
than hold whatever planets they can control and hold out for a clue shift.
Space control does not mean picking a planet and always defending it.
Space control usually means filling in the gaps in defense, or reading
where the enemy is going and beating them there. What makes you think you
can go around me? I can hold you and your twinky escorts off, and
while I'm occupying three of your team, my team might be dropping
elsewhere, or they might be impeding your other carriers.
Frankly, if you were reasonably good, ogging you would be a low-percentage
play, and I probably wouldn't do it at all, even if you were the only
enemy carrier.
> In pickup, to space control is to be the strong link in a weak chain.
Good metaphor to illustrate up your argument, but space control isn't
a static 'chain', it's more like water pressure moving forward, holding
you back. Can you push harder? That is the question.
...
> Ideally, space control is still a good tactic in pickup, but
>realistically, it's not wise to try it, and if you're the carrier, it's not
>wise to rely on it.
We agree here. Carriers need to evaluate each situation individually,
whether in pickup or INL.
I think the root of your misconception about space control is the notion
that space control is like a zone defense. One person playing zone
defense while the rest of the team twinks around will not be effective.
Space control can be accomplished via a zone-like role assignment (and
sometimes is, in INL), but more often, space control is a matter of
pushing the enemy back wherever she is. Space control *is* defending
space, but the space is usually not a fixed place. Rather, it moves
around a lot. It's somewhere between man-to-man and zone.
You seem to think that space control is some intricate lattice that
requires cooperating teammates. It is more general than that. It
does not encompass ogging.
I've always held that optimal pickup strategy is different and potentially
more complicated than INL strategy, because the distributions of skill
and clue are so wide. In INL games, players are far more homogeneous.
Often you don't even have to remember who's who when sizing up a tactical
situation. In pickup, you always have to remember who's who, because
if you don't, you may be either wasting an opportunity or throwing
yourself into a suicidal situation.
The increased variegation of players in a given game contributes to the
combinatoric number of situational possibilities. Some of those
situations, which never occur in INL, are best addressed with non-INL
tactics, such as ogging.
The only example I can think of right now is the one in which I, a
good ogger, see a twinky enemy carrier moving towards a planet. Several
enemies are between me and the carrier. These enemies are not very
good. I could kill them, but it would take all of my fuel. Therefore,
I will use cloaking as a fuel-saving device, and "ogg" the carrier.
-Dan / Charity / Tuber
Daniel Damouth
In article <omQ=k4i8XZ8...@pitt.edu>,
Kevin Bernatz <kmbs...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>
>Not sure who really said that dogfighting is overrated (read it in Henrik's
>post...I think he excerpted Tin Man).
>
> Dogfighting is overrated. But only to a degree. You *must* be above the
>threshold level if you want to be competent on the INL level playing field.
>The same goes for almost every 'ability'..SC bombing, planet taking, SBing.etc.
>There is a certain point where you are "good enough". Then there comes the
>point where you are "great", where the extra skill you have gives you a
>distinct advantage over the people who are "good enough". A good example is
>Erik Lauer's basing ability, Phantom's and ensign's phaserlocking ability two
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ !?!?
>to three years ago and Tfengs and Charity's dogfighting ability about 1 year
>ago. (okay..make that 3 good example's :> ).
It only sounds like 2 good examples to me. It's really really strange to
think that someone's phaserlocking ability could dominate a game. Are you
being serious? Pretty much any top player has it down. Once in a while
something important will happen because someone miraculously missed a lock,
but usually cloaking around the enemy is a desperation move. enemy.
I may not be the best at plocking*, but still, trying to get by me
cloaked is a very low probability maneuver.
As far as the other examples, Erik's basing ability seems more of an
unbalancing thing than the dogfighting skill of Tom and me put together.
I should know, since Tom and I were on the same team for a long time,
and often encountered Erik base on the other team. A good example is
the INL game we played last week vs. the REAL CMU. You were losing for
most of the game by an average of a planet or two, but then at the
end Erik came out in a base (we killed your first base pretty easily),
and simply moved forward. Sure, there were other factors involved, but
this is the pattern that has persisted over the last year or two.
An aging, rusty CMU team is clearly outplayed for much of regulation,
and relies on the Erik base to pull out the victory.
Of course the other main factors were your use of 2 ASWs in
the last 20 minutes to collect, and the psychological boost of knowing
that the last 20 minutes are all that really matter.
-Dan / Charity / Tuber
*well, I might be.
mike bist
Tin Man (tin...@widowmaker.com) wrote:
: Another example would be ogging. I mentioned once that ogging ability
: is more useful than dogfighting ability, and once again this applies to
: pickup play. In pickup, being a skilled dogfighter, as I mentioned, is
: minimally useful -- you can't be everywhere. Having skilled oggers is what
: can determine the outcome. While I imagine it takes several good
: dogfighters to have space control, it really only takes one or two oggers.
: In effect, it's the difference between knowing your team will work with you
: (INL) and when it won't (pickup). One man space control isn't worth much,
: but one man ogging can do a lot of damage in pickup.
I agree that for surpressing the other team in pickup, oggin does more
damage than space control in most general games. Of course there are alot
of situations where this isnt true, but in general it is.
But I must disagree about saying that oggin is more useful than dogfighting.
In pickup, it is often hard or takes too long to get escorts. Hense, you
must increase your but-torping skills for the oggers, and increase your
dogfighting skills for the defenders of the planet that you are about
to take. Dont get me wrong, I think oggin is very good for defense in
pickup, but dogfighting is very good for offense. How else can ya get kills
and scum :-)
ZHO
--
__
-later |_/\
,--,;\)
/-------------------------------\ ,-"-..._\
| Michael Bist | \_...._( )
| sid...@umdsun2.umd.umich.edu | |a a )`|
\-------------------------------| ___ /`._ / /
|---==[___]\/; \'
`B-'|_`,)
<'/||8`>
__|::|
(__.';|
(_)
Daniel Damouth
In article <54s0v5$d...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,>"Tin Man" <tin...@widowmaker.com> writes:
>
[dogfighting]
> Only the toughest skill in all of netrek.
If you count basing as dogfighting, then I agree with you.
-Dan / Primetuber
Hugh Moore
Netrek a la Tin Man:
> At any rate, if forced to choose between having good dogfighters to
>fall back on or good oggers to fall back on, I'd pick oggers any day. I
>don't give a crap if you kill the escorts, just kill the carrier.
The problem that you're ignoring is that good escorts not only
stop enemy takers, but they simultaniously stop enemy Oggers. While it's
good to mix in a few Oggers to keep the enemies on their toes, it's much
more important to have a solid wall of dogfighters. A team can win perfectly
well without Oggers, but without dogfighters, they will soon be reduced to
core.
-ZZnew guy
mike bist
Tin Man (tin...@widowmaker.com) wrote:
: If it works, and works well, and works consistantly, you could hardly
: justify calling it "st00pid". There's a few general pickup players that
: can phasorlock just about anything and notice an incoming ogger virtually
: all of the time, but that's by far the exception. To say it's stupid just
: tells me you're arguing for the sake of disagreeing with me, since it DOES
: work.
see the oggers coming in. The funny thing is, I play at tbyte (alog).
I dont know where u play or what time of day u play tho. Also, I am
gettin plocked alot. Remember, alot of pickup people play inl.
: Yes, and there's something to be said for pickup strategy in that.
: For instance, the way a lot of critical plays are missed because the player
: wouldn't make the move. Most likely they were giving the enemy too much
: credit. Pickup games wouldn't last so long if most people thought,. "Hey,
: these aren't INL players... why don't I just go." It works more than it
: should, and it's not all that clever, but it beats the 20 minute LPS that
: happens in nearly all pickup games.
YOu are wright about knowing who u play against and play againt their
disabilities. The only thing is, if people are being held up cause
they give twinks too much credit, they are twinks too and probally
cant do much better.
ZHO
- sig file
Steve Lamb
On 27 Oct 1996 08:57:21 -0800, Tom Holub <do...@best.com> wrote:
>) It occurs to me that what we really need is probably a seperate INL
>)newsgroup.
>No, what we need is for people to confine strategy discussions to games in
>which teams don't suck. Anything works against twinks.
Fine, fine, fine... We've established that. We've also established
that anyone who posts their experiences here in hopes of discussion gets
nothing but constant flames to wait until (pick your favorite variable clue
level here). That is not why *I* come to this group and I'm sure, as much
as those doing the flaming may enjoy it, that is not why they come to this
group either.
So what is the problem with splitting the discussion out? Have rgn.inl
and rgn.newbie (or some such). That way the people who want to discuss
higher tactics can do so without the constant barrage of newbies and also
have a place to direct those newbies. The newbies can have a place to
discuss their experiences and get discussion going so they can become better
at it. Any kindly clue that wants to help newbies (w/o flames, please) can
come to the other newsgroup and do so.
I think it would only benefit both groups of people. The INL-level clue
and those who want a place to discuss and learn.
--
- - - ---===+[ ]+===--- - - -
Steve C. Lamb
In the year of the OS wars it became something greater...
Our last, best hope for victory...
The OS, Linux... The name of the place, /dev/sdb5!
Schrenk
> > Or we could just shoot all new players on sight. Dogfighting to kill
> >another ship isn't that great of a skill.
>
> Only the toughest skill in all of netrek.
Hmmm. . . Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that playing as a team
member is the toughest skill in all of netrek. Anyone can be a good
dogfighter. I've seen plenty of good dogfighters I wouldn't want to
fill slots on my team because they wouldn't play for the team. If
being a team-member isn't thougher than being an ace dogfighter, why
are there more good dogfighters than good team players? Ah, but what
do I know? I don't have 10,000 kills :) heh.
Peter Schrenk
gregory dean dearing
In article <5533qe$h...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
Daniel Damouth <dam...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>Kevin Bernatz <kmbs...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>>Erik Lauer's basing ability, Phantom's and ensign's phaserlocking ability two
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ !?!?
>>to three years ago and Tfengs and Charity's dogfighting ability about 1 year
>>ago. (okay..make that 3 good example's :> ).
>It only sounds like 2 good examples to me. It's really really strange to
>think that someone's phaserlocking ability could dominate a game.
Notice he said two to three years ago...and I think he really meant
4-5 years ago. The memory is the first thing to go. :) Back in the
day, cloaking (for takers and oggers) was much more prevalent, and
fewer people could phaserlock really well. It was a more important,
and noticeable, skill.
--
Gregory Dearing
Email: dear...@osu.edu
terry chay !
dam...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (Daniel Damouth) writes:
>The only example I can think of right now is the one in which I, a
>good ogger, see a twinky enemy carrier moving towards a planet. Several
>enemies are between me and the carrier. These enemies are not very
>good. I could kill them, but it would take all of my fuel. Therefore,
>I will use cloaking as a fuel-saving device, and "ogg" the carrier.
Sharking their only carrier into the core and killing it.
Can only be attempted when you know the ressers aren't reading.
terry
66 @ HNIC
Jan Sandorf
tyc...@alumnae.caltech.edu ( terry chay !) writes:
>What is the sound of one clue ogging?
Thud thump bonk ouch scrunch bewm <---sound of "klew" getting buttorped.
-Jan
--
Jan Sandorf (j...@solace.mh.se || j...@xinit.se)
http://www.solace.mh.se/~jsf/
"A single doosh is a tragedy, a million dooshes is a statistic" - KIA
Ceri Alun Morgan
In message <5533qe$h...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
> In article <omQ=k4i8XZ8...@pitt.edu>,
> Kevin Bernatz <kmbs...@pitt.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Not sure who really said that dogfighting is overrated (read it in Henrik's
> >post...I think he excerpted Tin Man).
> >
> > Dogfighting is overrated. But only to a degree. You *must* be above
> the
> >threshold level if you want to be competent on the INL level playing field.
> >The same goes for almost every 'ability'..SC bombing, planet taking,
> SBing.etc.
>
> >There is a certain point where you are "good enough". Then there comes the
> >point where you are "great", where the extra skill you have gives you a
> >distinct advantage over the people who are "good enough". A good example
> is
> two
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ !?!?
> >to three years ago and Tfengs and Charity's dogfighting ability about 1
> year
> >ago. (okay..make that 3 good example's :> ).
>
> It only sounds like 2 good examples to me. It's really really strange to
> being serious? Pretty much any top player has it down. Once in a while
> something important will happen because someone miraculously missed a lock,
> but usually cloaking around the enemy is a desperation move. enemy.
That's because you underlined the wrong part of the sentence. Actually,
it was more than 2 to 3 years ago, but the number of people that could
phaser lock well was extremely low back about 4 to 5 years ago ( probably
helped a lot by the fact that everyone played at bronco and only .cmu people
were local).
> As far as the other examples, Erik's basing ability seems more of an
> unbalancing thing than the dogfighting skill of Tom and me put together.
> I should know, since Tom and I were on the same team for a long time,
> and often encountered Erik base on the other team. A good example is
> the INL game we played last week vs. the REAL CMU. You were losing for
> most of the game by an average of a planet or two, but then at the
> end Erik came out in a base (we killed your first base pretty easily),
> and simply moved forward. Sure, there were other factors involved, but
> this is the pattern that has persisted over the last year or two.
> An aging, rusty CMU team is clearly outplayed for much of regulation,
> and relies on the Erik base to pull out the victory.
>
> Of course the other main factors were your use of 2 ASWs in
> the last 20 minutes to collect, and the psychological boost of knowing
> that the last 20 minutes are all that really matter.
Speaking just for myself, I only get to play now during our INL games/
scrimmages so i'm rusty as hell and it takes at least half a game for me
to get into "form". I think this also helps account for our strong
second halfs...
-Ceri
gregory dean dearing
In article <01bbc301$5c122fe0$679aa1ce@default>,
Tin Man <tin...@widowmaker.com> wrote:
> It occurs to me that what we really need is probably a seperate INL
I'm very much against this idea, although not too worried about it
actually happening. :) The main problem is that if the weaker players
never get any exposure to how the game should be played, they'll never
get any better.
It's kind of bothered me recently that most of the really good
discussion of game strategy has moved off of rgn and onto team mailing
lists. There are some obvious reasons for this, but even players who
are on the good teams only get to see what their own team comes up
with.
I don't see any reason to fragment the discussions any further.
> This could be a misconception on my part, but it seems that a
>lot of things are different in INL versus pickup, and space control may be
>one of them.
Actually, the tactics that work in INL tend to work even better in
pickup. The difference between INL and pickup tactics is the
difference between "Tactics that work against anyone" and "Tactics
that work against weak players".
This is why people get frustrated when someone insists that X works
well for me, so it must be a good idea. We don't get better games if
people don't learn anything beyond how to beat up newbies.
> In pickup, space control looks like a waste of time, just
>because it's not organized enough. You can't be a one man front for very
>long, which is what it comes down to
Space control is about controlling space, which doesn't necessarily
mean the entire front. I think maybe half of the confusion here is
that you're using a rather stricter version of the term than most
people.
>A clued pickup team can use this to their advantage, just by
>having the starbase move in -- the entire front instantly disintegrates, as
>the majority of players concentrate on the starbase and ignore the two
>ships that are taking all their planets.
Hey we agree! The starbase is a very effective space controller. :)
But if you, being the clue, plug the holes on the other side of the
line, then the carriers will have nowhere to go. However, if you try
to ogg one of them, the other one will have a free take. You're also
not likely to succeed in your ogg if the carrier is any good.
You will have a problem where the base is, since they should be able
to take there with relative ease. But this is the price of conceding
control of that space to their SB.
> Yes, now that you specified INL games, it becomes a lot clearer where
>you're coming from. When your whole team is competent, it makes sense to
>have space control to keep the enemy from going into your back areas.
In the INL, noone has such comprehensive space control that
enemies can't penetrate their backfield, yet the control does lessen
the problem. It's all a matter of degrees I suppose.
> In pickup, it's still something of a good idea, it's just not
>practical. Weak sections in the team's space control is the rule rather
>than the exception, and as a carrier, you're probably better off with close
>escort support than reliance on space control.
Even in pickup, you'll notice that few clue 'close escort'. They go,
clear the planet, and place themselves in a position where enemy
oggers have to go through them. This is a form of space control.
> The one time to really space control in pickup games is when you're
>out of armies and there's nobody to ogg -- just because there's nothing
>else exciting to do.
Actually, good pickup players do a lot of space control intuitively.
Here's some common saying which are really just people touching on the
space control concept.
"Meet the wave at the front"
"Don't waste armies on Cas, we can't hold it"
"Push the base back"
"Clear the planet"
"Help Control at Cas"
"Their base is all alone"
"Fly that -------> way!"
"Ogg them out of our space"
"We already own the planet, it's just a matter of taking it."
Being concious of the idea helps a lot though. If you realize that
the 'line' doesn't move as the planet count changes, but rather the
planet count generally changes as the line moves...you're halfway
there.
If all the newbies circling Ear when I'm down to core would
understand this, I'd be a much happier person. :)
> Just curious, what DOES happen in INL space control? (It's gotta be
>better than the pickup version.)
Some teams use space control zones, if their players aren't very good
at plugging weak spots. For the most part though, you probably
wouldn't notice it if you weren't looking for it.
terry chay !
dam...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (Daniel Damouth) writes:
>Let's assume your team has several carriers, you among them, and I'm
>a much better dogfighter than you are. Several things could happen.
>I could ogg you, spew my huge TUBERED macro to the all board, and lose
>my front line to the other carriers. Or, I could stay by my planets,
>holding off any carriers on my side of the galaxy, forcing them
>into the area where my twinky teammates happen to be in hopes that
>they will do something. Maybe they will and maybe they won't, but
>that's the best I can do. The classic pitfall clue will fall into
>in this situation is to ogg successfully and still be genoed, rather
>than hold whatever planets they can control and hold out for a clue shift.
I don't think that's even close to a "classic pitfall" the
way you've stated it. If it is, it'd be to "ogg successfully and
still be dropped to core."
In general pickup, space controlling is the superior strategy, but
when in core, human targetting is the best way to control the enemy
out of your core. I've only been genoed once this year, and that was
by Rick, Ceri, and Kevin (and perhaps a couple others) when I joined it
at two planets.
Plus, human targetting is an unbelievably frustrating tactic
to to other side. A clue shift is much more likeley to happen when
the other clue are quitting out.
terry
66 @ Hockey Night In Canada
What is the sound of one clue ogging?
Steve Lamb
On 28 Oct 1996 17:23:25 -0800, Tom Holub <do...@best.com> wrote:
>Do you really think that newbies would be helped by creating a group that
>most clued players wouldn't want to read?
Do you really think that newbies are being helped by being flamed
endlessly until they quit playing the game? Of course you do, you're clue,
you don't care about the game getting a larger player base, just that it
doesn't change at all.
>1500 DD idiots arguing over whether it's right to fly warp 6 or warp 7
>when you're trying to plink-torp a kill aren't going to make anyone better.
It is obvious to me that 20 idiots on here flaming everyone, no matter
what their clue level, isn't helping make anyone better either. So what's
your suggestion, oh high and mighty clue?
Steve Lamb
On 28 Oct 1996 23:50:49 GMT, mike bist <sid...@elvis.umd.umich.edu> wrote:
>see the oggers coming in. The funny thing is, I play at tbyte (alog).
>I dont know where u play or what time of day u play tho. Also, I am
>gettin plocked alot. Remember, alot of pickup people play inl.
As mentioned here by a few people tbyte has borgs on it. I'd bet you
anything you're getting plocked by them.
Tom Youderian
Scott Humphreys <scottt> wrote:
>-Scott
>Remember to det own just before you die :)
Right, because you dont get a new ship until your torps fade away.
Unless you see the torps are going to doosh them of course.
Tom
..and be sure to try to get that last phaser in too!!
Sometimes the server gets confused and gives you one last phaser as you're
exploding.