Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
Daniel Keren
Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
VIII, p. 313-321]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?
A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
time, because the facts that were being described seemed too
terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated,
I was very much shaken emotionally.
.
.
.
Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
gassed at Auschwitz?
A. Yes.
.
.
.
Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human
beings were being gassed and exterminated?
A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of
Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a
completely useless undertaking which would have very shortly caused
me and my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo
was so well organized and the threats for nonobservance of the
secrecy that surrounded the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly
worded for members of the SS that everybody avoided telling even his
closest friend about it, because experience taught us that anybody
who talked about it in any way was very quickly found because the
Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very consistently that spread about
Auschwitz.
.
.
.
Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in
Auschwitz twice or three times a year for a period of one or two
days? Would he then have to gain knowledge about these things?
A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp,
and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it
masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the
people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman
treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there
were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were
especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped
like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them,
and well-functioning washrooms.
.
.
.
Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human
beings?
A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time.
.
.
.
Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick
in the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to
Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were
sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two
to you on that. Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital
at Monowitz and were shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an
edema or phlegmon, for what purpose were they shipped to Birkenau?
A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them
were gassed.
Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because
of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau?
A. Also to be gassed.
Debunks
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 16:08 EDT
>Message-id: <EsrBy...@world.std.com>
>
>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
>VIII, p. 313-321]
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?
>
>A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
> extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
> that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
> considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
> time, because the facts that were being described seemed too
> terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
> convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated,
> I was very much shaken emotionally.
>
> .
> .
> .
>
>
>Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
> gassed at Auschwitz?
>
>A. Yes.
>
> .
COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained. he was the only defendant among the
accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And of
course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
"observed."
Yale F. Edeiken
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> >Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
> >[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
> >Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
> >VIII, p. 313-321]
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?
> >A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
> > extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
> > that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
> > considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
> > time, because the facts that were being described seemed too
> > terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
> > convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated,
> > I was very much shaken emotionally.
> >Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
> > gassed at Auschwitz?
> >A. Yes.
> COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained.
Wrong. He pleaded not guilty and went to trial. He was tried for the
crimes of which he was accused.
> he was the only defendant among the
accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner.
Wrong again. He was acquitted based on the testimony of many
survivors.
> And of
> course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
> "observed."
Wrong again. He stated he frequently participated in gassings.
Those interested in the facts -- those pesky things that Bellinger refuses
to acknowledge -- are referred to the Cyberlibrary of the Holocaust
http://www.remeber.org
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cyberlibrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
John Morris
In <199805140255...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, on 14 May 1998
02:55:12 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>><HTML><PRE>Subject: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
>>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 16:08 EDT
>>Message-id: <EsrBy...@world.std.com>
>>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
>>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
>>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
>>VIII, p. 313-321]
[snip]
>COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained. he was the only defendant among the
>accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And of
>course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
>"observed."
Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
that Muench perjured his testimony as part of the plea bargain, post
it.
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
--
Daniel Keren
Joe "Boger" Bellinger, using the "Debunks" alias, writes:
# COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained.
Proof?
# he was the only defendant among the accused who was not sentenced
# to death according to Gerald Posner.
I don't believe this is true, Boger. The Poles didn't execute all
the SS-men from Auschwitz-Birkenau.
# And of course, Muench never actually participated in a
# "gassing"...he simply "observed."
What's your point, Boger?
-Danny Keren.
Yale F. Edeiken
> John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) writes:
> 02:55:12 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
> >>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
> >>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
> >>VIII, p. 313-321]
> >COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained. he was the only defendant among the
> >accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And of
> >course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
> >"observed."
> Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
> that Muench perjured his testimony as part of the plea bargain,
There was no plea bargain. There was a complete trial at which he was found
not guilty. The majority of the evidence for his defense was provided by inmates.
Bellinger is forced to lie because the testimony of the survivors anxious to defend
Muench defeats his thesis that the case was fabricated to convict innocent people.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
Yale F. Edeiken
> dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> Joe "Boger" Bellinger, using the "Debunks" alias, writes:
> # COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained.
> Proof?
Since he didn't, there is none.
> # he was the only defendant among the accused who was not sentenced
> # to death according to Gerald Posner.
>
> I don't believe this is true, Boger. The Poles didn't execute all
> the SS-men from Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Further Munch was found not guilty. The only courts that execute people
found innocent were those that Bellinger admires.
> # And of course, Muench never actually participated in a
> # "gassing"...he simply "observed."
> What's your point, Boger?
That he cannot confront facts. Muench stated he participated in
gassings on a regular basis. This unpleasant duty was assigned as a result of his
refusal to take part in the selections.
Debunks
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>From: John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
>Date: Thu, May 14, 1998 02:47 EDT
>Message-id: <355c92db...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>>>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 16:08 EDT
>>>Message-id: <EsrBy...@world.std.com>
>
>>>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
>>>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
>>>VIII, p. 313-321]
>
>
>>COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained. he was the only defendant among the
>>accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And of
>>course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
>>"observed."
>
>Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
>it.
>
>--
> John Morris
The fact speaks for itself.
Debunks
>HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>Date: Thu, May 14, 1998 09:19 EDT
>Message-id: <355ae...@news3.enter.net>
>
>> John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) writes:
>
>> 02:55:12 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>> >>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
>> >>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
>> >>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
>> >>VIII, p. 313-321]
>
>the
>> >accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And
>of
>> >course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
>> >"observed."
>
>> Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
>> that Muench perjured his testimony as part of the plea bargain,
>
found
>
>not guilty. The majority of the evidence for his defense was provided by
>inmates.
>Bellinger is forced to lie because the testimony of the survivors anxious to
>defend
>Muench defeats his thesis that the case was fabricated to convict innocent
>people.
>
> --YFE
>
>
Muench also testified that he knew nothing about any of Josef Mengele's
so-called experiments. Your "fair" trial was simply another commmunist show
trial. Yawn.
Debunks
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>Date: Thu, May 14, 1998 03:55 EDT
>Message-id: <Esxso...@world.std.com>
>
>Joe "Boger" Bellinger, using the "Debunks" alias, writes:
>
>
>Proof?
>
># he was the only defendant among the accused who was not sentenced
># to death according to Gerald Posner.
>
>I don't believe this is true, Boger. The Poles didn't execute all
>the SS-men from Auschwitz-Birkenau.
>
>
Take it up with Posner. And the executions refer to DOCTORS, not SS men-try
and pay attention.
Debunks
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>Date: Thu, May 14, 1998 20:04 EDT
>Message-id: <355b8...@news3.enter.net>
>
>> dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>> Joe "Boger" Bellinger, using the "Debunks" alias, writes:
>
>> # COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained.
>
>> Proof?
>
>
>> # to death according to Gerald Posner.
>>
>> I don't believe this is true, Boger. The Poles didn't execute all
>> the SS-men from Auschwitz-Birkenau.
>
people
>found innocent were those that Bellinger admires.
>
>> # And of course, Muench never actually participated in a
>> # "gassing"...he simply "observed."
>
>> What's your point, Boger?
>
> That he cannot confront facts. Muench stated he participated in
>gassings on a regular basis. This unpleasant duty was assigned as a result
>of his
>refusal to take part in the selections.
>
>
> --YFE
>
>
LIAR. According to the information I have read he claimed NEVER to have
participated in a gassing.
Mark Van Alstine
In article <199805160704...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
> >Auschwitz
> >From: John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
> >Date: Thu, May 14, 1998 02:47 EDT
> >Message-id: <355c92db...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
> >
> >In <199805140255...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, on 14 May 1998
> >02:55:12 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >
> >>>Subject: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
> >>>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> >>>Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 16:08 EDT
> >>>Message-id: <EsrBy...@world.std.com>
> >
> >>>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
> >>>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
> >>>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
> >>>VIII, p. 313-321]
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >>COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained. he was the only defendant among the
> >>accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And of
> >>course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
> >>"observed."
> >
> >Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
> >that Muench perjured his testimony as part of the plea bargain, post
> >it.
> >
> >--
> > John Morris
>
> The fact speaks for itself.
They sure do. The facts say Boger is full of shit. As usual.
Mark
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Morris
In <mvanalst-160...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>, on Sat,
16 May 1998 07:42:42 GMT, mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine)
wrote:
>> >[snip]
>> The fact speaks for itself.
What facts, Joe? We have your naked assertion and your insinuations.
But where are your facts?
It appears to be the fact that Muench pleaded not guilty and was
acquitted of the charges against him on the strength of the testimony
of former inmates and that there was no plea bargain at all.
So far from presenting facts, you answer a simple request for
information by repeating your claim.
I find all of this quite unconvincing.
>They sure do. The facts say Boger is full of shit. As usual.
>Mark
I'm beginning to think he is a borderline psychotic. The more he is
pressed for proof, the more his claims are demonstrated to be false,
the more ridiculous and under-evidenced his claims become. It is as if
the more he has to confront reality, the more he retreats into
fantasies of secret organizations, murders made to look like suicides,
authentic documents with "interpolations," and criminals who are
really victims.
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
--
Yale F. Edeiken
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> >> >COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained. he was the only defendant among
> >the accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And
> >of course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
> >> >"observed."
> >> Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
> >> that Muench perjured his testimony as part of the plea bargain,
> > There was no plea bargain. There was a complete trial at which he was
> found not guilty. The majority of the evidence for his defense was provided by
> >inmates. Bellinger is forced to lie because the testimony of the survivors anxious to
> >defend Muench defeats his thesis that the case was fabricated to convict innocent
> >people.
> Muench also testified that he knew nothing about any of Josef Mengele's
> so-called experiments.
Liar. His defense was based almost entirely on people being subjected to these
"experiments."
> Your "fair" trial was simply another commmunist show
> trial. Yawn.
Sure. A "show trial" where the accused is allowed to present a defense and is acquitted.
Bellinger gets more desperate my the minute.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
Yale F. Edeiken
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> > Further Munch was found not guilty. The only courts that execute
> people found innocent were those that Bellinger admires.
> >> # And of course, Muench never actually participated in a
> >> # "gassing"...he simply "observed."
> >> What's your point, Boger?
> > That he cannot confront facts. Muench stated he participated in
> >gassings on a regular basis. This unpleasant duty was assigned as a result
> >of his refusal to take part in the selections.
> LIAR. According to the information I have read he claimed NEVER to have
> participated in a gassing.
Well "according to information" from an unstated source. How
convincing. Those who wish to see the statements of Dr. Hans Muench, including
an affidavit made in 1992, where he states that he was assigned the dirty job of
attending gassings and declaring when the victims were dead, are referred to:
The Cybrary of the Holocaust:
http://www.remember.org
Bellinger will, of course, come up with his usual excuses.
Hilary Ostrov
On Sat, 16 May 1998 08:11:58 GMT, in
<355d47a9...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
[...]
[Bellinger posing as "debunks"]:
>>> The fact speaks for itself.
>
>What facts, Joe? We have your naked assertion and your insinuations.
>But where are your facts?
>
>It appears to be the fact that Muench pleaded not guilty and was
>acquitted of the charges against him on the strength of the testimony
>of former inmates and that there was no plea bargain at all.
>
>So far from presenting facts, you answer a simple request for
>information by repeating your claim.
>
>I find all of this quite unconvincing.
>
[...]
>I'm beginning to think he is a borderline psychotic.
Sorry, John. I think you give him too much credit. Unless I'm very
much mistaken, those who are psychotic (whether borderline or not),
customarily have a respectable - if not high - degree of intelligence.
Bellinger has not demonstrated any sign of intelligent life in the
universe he calls his brain.
>The more he is
>pressed for proof, the more his claims are demonstrated to be false,
>the more ridiculous and under-evidenced his claims become. It is as if
>the more he has to confront reality, the more he retreats into
>fantasies of secret organizations, murders made to look like suicides,
>authentic documents with "interpolations," and criminals who are
>really victims.
Is he not merely spouting the "revisionist" party line a la Zundel?
Sure looks like it to me.
hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hos...@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/
Daniel Keren
Joe "Boger" Bellinger, using the "Debunks" alias, writes:
## I don't believe this is true, Boger. The Poles didn't
## execute all the SS-men from Auschwitz-Birkenau.
# Take it up with Posner.
I have no idea who Posner is.
# And the executions refer to DOCTORS, not SS men-try
# and pay attention.
Boger, when you write "he was the only defendant among the
accused who was not sentenced to death", it is not possible
to understand that you mean doctors. In addition, what you
claim is not true, because Dr. Kremer and Dr. Clauberg were
not executed.
-Danny Keren.
Debunks
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>From: John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
>Message-id: <355d47a9...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
>In <mvanalst-160...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>, on Sat,
>16 May 1998 07:42:42 GMT, mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <199805160704...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>>deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>>> >Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>>> >Auschwitz
>>> >From: John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
>>> >Date: Thu, May 14, 1998 02:47 EDT
>>> >Message-id: <355c92db...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
>>> >In <199805140255...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, on 14 May 1998
>>> >02:55:12 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>>> >>>Subject: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
>>> >>>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>> >>>Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 16:08 EDT
>>> >>>Message-id: <EsrBy...@world.std.com>
>
>>> >>>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench
>>> >>>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
>>> >>>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
>>> >>>VIII, p. 313-321]
>
>>> >[snip]
>
>the
>>> >>accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner. And
>of
>>> >>course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
>>> >>"observed."
>
>>> >Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
>>> >it.
>
>>> The fact speaks for itself.
>
>What facts, Joe? We have your naked assertion and your insinuations.
>But where are your facts?
>
>It appears to be the fact that Muench pleaded not guilty and was
>acquitted of the charges against him on the strength of the testimony
>of former inmates and that there was no plea bargain at all.
>
>So far from presenting facts, you answer a simple request for
>information by repeating your claim.
>
>I find all of this quite unconvincing.
>
>
>>Mark
>
>pressed for proof, the more his claims are demonstrated to be false,
>the more ridiculous and under-evidenced his claims become. It is as if
>the more he has to confront reality, the more he retreats into
>fantasies of secret organizations, murders made to look like suicides,
>authentic documents with "interpolations," and criminals who are
>really victims.
>
> John Morris
I fi am a psychotic, you are a paranoid nut, seeing Naiz conspiracies, gas
chambers, victims otrn in half at the legs by Ss men with their bare hands,
etc etc. BTW, I saw a documentary which featured an excerpt by Muench. I
don't recall any comments about participation in gassings.
Debunks
>HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 12:56 EDT
>Message-id: <355dc51e...@news.uniserve.com>
>
>On Sat, 16 May 1998 08:11:58 GMT, in
><355d47a9...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>[Bellinger posing as "debunks"]:
>>
>>What facts, Joe? We have your naked assertion and your insinuations.
>>But where are your facts?
>>
>>It appears to be the fact that Muench pleaded not guilty and was
>>acquitted of the charges against him on the strength of the testimony
>>of former inmates and that there was no plea bargain at all.
>>
>>So far from presenting facts, you answer a simple request for
>>information by repeating your claim.
>>
>>I find all of this quite unconvincing.
>>
>
>>I'm beginning to think he is a borderline psychotic.
>
>much mistaken, those who are psychotic (whether borderline or not),
>customarily have a respectable - if not high - degree of intelligence.
>Bellinger has not demonstrated any sign of intelligent life in the
>universe he calls his brain.
>
>>pressed for proof, the more his claims are demonstrated to be false,
>>the more ridiculous and under-evidenced his claims become. It is as if
>>the more he has to confront reality, the more he retreats into
>>fantasies of secret organizations, murders made to look like suicides,
>>authentic documents with "interpolations," and criminals who are
>>really victims.
>
>Sure looks like it to me.
>
>hro
>=====================
As opposed to your Nizkook line? Physician-heal thyself.
Debunks
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 15:15 EDT
>Message-id: <Et2DH...@world.std.com>
It is not what I claim. It is what gerald Posner, jewish author of the book
"Mengele' claims. Take it up with him. And I don't believe that clauberg and
Kremer were included at the same trial. If you have info on that, please post.
Debunks
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 09:47 EDT
>Message-id: <355d9...@news3.enter.net>>> >> >COMMENT: Hans Muench plea bargained. he was the only defendant
>among
>> >the accused who was not sentenced to death according to Gerald Posner.
>And
>> >of course, Muench never actually participated in a "gassing"...he simply
>> >> >"observed."
>
>> >> Which proves what? Insinuations are not proofs. If you have some proof
>> >> that Muench perjured his testimony as part of the plea bargain,
>
>> found not guilty. The majority of the evidence for his defense was
>provided by
>> >inmates. Bellinger is forced to lie because the testimony of the
>survivors anxious to
>> >defend Muench defeats his thesis that the case was fabricated to convict
>innocent
>> >people.
>
>> Muench also testified that he knew nothing about any of Josef Mengele's
>> so-called experiments.
>
> Liar. His defense was based almost entirely on people being subjected
to
>these
>"experiments."
>
>> Your "fair" trial was simply another commmunist show
>> trial. Yawn.
>
> Sure. A "show trial" where the accused is allowed to present a defense
and
>is acquitted.
> Bellinger gets more desperate my the minute.
>
>
>
> --YFE
>
>
Sure, Yale. Refer to Posner's book for the info a la Muench and Mengele's
"experiments."
Debunks
>HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in
>Auschwitz
>From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>Message-id: <355d9...@news3.enter.net>
>
>> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
>
>> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>
>> people found innocent were those that Bellinger admires.
>
>> >> # And of course, Muench never actually participated in a
>> >> # "gassing"...he simply "observed."
>
>> >> What's your point, Boger?
>
>> > That he cannot confront facts. Muench stated he participated in
>> >gassings on a regular basis. This unpleasant duty was assigned as a
>result
>> >of his refusal to take part in the selections.
>
>> LIAR. According to the information I have read he claimed NEVER to have
>> participated in a gassing.
>
> Well "according to information" from an unstated source. How
>convincing. Those who wish to see the statements of Dr. Hans Muench,
>including
>an affidavit made in 1992, where he states that he was assigned the dirty job
>of
>attending gassings and declaring when the victims were dead, are referred to:
>
> The Cybrary of the Holocaust:
> http://www.remember.org
>
> Bellinger will, of course, come up with his usual excuses.
>
>
>
> --YFE
>
>
Sounds like you will come up with the usual forgeries.
Yale F. Edeiken
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >From: John....@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
> >What facts, Joe? We have your naked assertion and your insinuations.
> >But where are your facts?
> >It appears to be the fact that Muench pleaded not guilty and was
> >acquitted of the charges against him on the strength of the testimony
> >of former inmates and that there was no plea bargain at all.
>
> >So far from presenting facts, you answer a simple request for
> >information by repeating your claim.
> >I find all of this quite unconvincing.
> I fi am a psychotic, you are a paranoid nut, seeing Naiz conspiracies, gas
> chambers, victims otrn in half at the legs by Ss men with their bare hands,
> etc etc. BTW, I saw a documentary which featured an excerpt by Muench. I
> don't recall any comments about participation in gassings.
Who cares what you hazily remember from a soundbite on a tv show.
His actual story is available at the Cybrary of the Holocaust. Go there and read it.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
Yale F. Edeiken
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> >> > There was no plea bargain. There was a complete trial at which he was
> >> found not guilty. The majority of the evidence for his defense was
> >provided by inmates. Bellinger is forced to lie because the testimony of the
> >survivors anxious to defend Muench defeats his thesis that the case was fabricated to
convict innocent people.
> >> Muench also testified that he knew nothing about any of Josef Mengele's
> >> so-called experiments.
> > Liar. His defense was based almost entirely on people being subjected
> to these "experiments."
> >> Your "fair" trial was simply another commmunist show
> >> trial. Yawn.
> > Sure. A "show trial" where the accused is allowed to present a defense
> and is acquitted.
> > Bellinger gets more desperate my the minute.
> Sure, Yale. Refer to Posner's book for the info a la Muench and Mengele's
> "experiments."
No. I'll refer to the statements of those who were there. Muench's story can be
found on the Cybrary of the Holocaust. It includes the direct testimony of those victims of
Mengele's experiments who Muench tried to save.
Yale F. Edeiken
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> >> > Further Munch was found not guilty. The only courts that execute
> >> people found innocent were those that Bellinger admires.
> >> >> # And of course, Muench never actually participated in a
> >> >> # "gassing"...he simply "observed."
> >> >> What's your point, Boger?
> >> > That he cannot confront facts. Muench stated he participated in
> >> >gassings on a regular basis. This unpleasant duty was assigned as a
> >result of his refusal to take part in the selections.
> >> LIAR. According to the information I have read he claimed NEVER to have
> >> participated in a gassing.
> > Well "according to information" from an unstated source. How
> >convincing. Those who wish to see the statements of Dr. Hans Muench,
> >including an affidavit made in 1992, where he states that he was assigned the
dirty job of attending gassings and declaring when the victims were dead, are
referred to:
> > The Cybrary of the Holocaust:
> > http://www.remember.org
> > Bellinger will, of course, come up with his usual excuses.
> Sounds like you will come up with the usual forgeries.
*Yawn*
Muench, alive as late as 1992, refutes you entirely. Take your medicine,
Bellinger. Your psychotic ravings are becoming boring.
steve mock
Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> > deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> > >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>
> > >Ask any psychologist or psychiatrist what your
> > >ravings demonstrate.
>
> > Whom should I ask: GIlbert and Freud?
>
> Ask a living one.
Well, I'm not lisenced, but I would be happy to share with you my initial observations as
an amateur. I have reached the following two conclusions:
1) CHRIST COMPLEX - he honestly and implicity believes that he is simply right, his
opponants are simply wrong. He is incapable of recognizing the hypocrisy of his own
position, because he really thinks he has the ability to see truth before him, whereas
everyone who disagrees with him is wallowing in darkness. Therefore, what he calls truth
are really his preconceived notions, and he cannot and will not differentiate between the
two. There is no logic or reason behind it, which is why there is no arguing with him.
This also explains his use of language, such as Biblical quotes that he does not fully
understand (eg. "physician heal thyself", etc.). This is why he believes it when he says
things like "I have no preconceived notions", "You can't tell the difference between truth
and lies", or "I don't lie" - statements that make us all giggle at his naievite, but which
he takes quite seriously. I've even seen him say "I am righteous", in answer to a
challenge You will note that he also uses religious language in speaking of his purpose on
alt.revisionism. Words like "convert", and "followers" come up with regard to the
reasoning behind his posts and his intended audience. But contrary to what we might
expect, he doesn't mean to convert us to Nazism or anti-Semitism or Holocaust Denial, or
anything like that, so in that sense it is not a game. No, Bellinger's goal is not so
mundane. Rather, he intends to convert us to capital-T Truth - of which he is the anointed
envoy - will all of the accompanying theological implications - nothing more, nothing
less. Of course, we "Nizkooks" are not potential "converts", because we are the agents of
Satan - pure evil, uncompromised falsehood. His "converts", that his, his congregation,
are the mythical legion of lurkers that he honestly believes hang on his every word. Rest
assured, Bellinger takes the discussions on alt.revisionism more seriously than anyone,
because he believes that a theological battle is being played out through them. He is
simply right, we are simply wrong. He is certain of it, and is certain that it will be
proven to all when the apocalypse comes.
2) REPRESSED SEXUALITY - What makes Bellinger odd among Holocaust deniers is that I have
come to the conclusion that he is genuinely not anti-Semitic - at least not in the
racist/Nazi sense of the word. He is anti-Jewish insofar as his pre-Holocaust, pre-Vatican
II... oh lets face it, pre-Inquisition Christian chauvanism compels him to be. That is, he
sees Jews as fundamentally untrustworthy and incapable of seeing or telling the truth
(hence, the only Holocaust survivor he believes is a Jew who converted to Christianity - a
kind of Joseph of Arimathea - though he denies that that's why). But it is a religious,
not a racist bigotry. The Holocaust is convenient for him to deny as it fits into his
theological model described above, with the Jews cast as the plotters and persecuters.
However, it is not simply this convenience that draws him to Holocaust denial. There is
also an attraction to Nazism, but (and it is in this way that he is different than other
deniers), that attraction is psychosexual rather than ideological. This first struck me
several months ago when he was fixated on Irma Grese (though it is evident, to a greater or
lesser degree, in all of his original posts, and most of his subsequent material has served
to confirm this theory). The imagery of his posts was of sweet, young, beautiful, innocent
little teeny-bopper Irma, with her armband, her rhinestone studded horse-whip and her tight
black mini-skirt, lynched by those dirty, ugly, jealous, schemeing, criminal Jewesses who
bore false witness. Again, the imagry is of the crucified lamb, but there is also the
sense of the Nazis as the pure, dashing, and handsome blond heroes. He is simply incapable
of accepting that the objects of his affection could committ such henious crimes, which is
why, to him, it goes without saying that witnesses who claim to have seen them doing things
that offend his moral sensibilities must be liars. As he cannot imagine anyone not sharing
his passion for the image of the Nazi, he cannot imagine anyone honestly thinking otherwise
about the honesty of the survivors who would muddy that image.
Those are my observations to date. Further study is required.
Steve Mock
Yale F. Edeiken
> >> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> >> > Confronted with a statement he made in 1992 to that effect, you
> >> >claimed it was a "forgery."
> >> I don't remember that. Please quote me verbatim.
> > I certainly will:
> > I stated that Muench's statements can be found at:
> > * * * *
> >> >> > The Cybrary of the Holocaust:
> >> >> > http://www.remember.org
> >> >> > Bellinger will, of course, come up with his usual excuses.
> >> >> Sounds like you will come up with the usual forgeries.
> > * * * *
> > And, you lying fuck, you first snipped the quote and then implied that
> you didn't make it. This is typical of your behavior. Your dishonesty and your
> >willing apologies for the nazis is utter and complete. It pervades every aspect of
> >your behavior. You are a bigot. Worse you are a lying bigot.
> All your name calling merely proves that you are,....well,...a name caller.
That's right. You are a lousy lying fuck as proved above. The thing I
dispise most about you is that, even when your utter dishonesty is displayed, you try
to brazen it out.
The most disgusting thing of all is that you are raising children. I pity
them.
Debunks
>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
>Message-id: <3563a...@news3.enter.net>
Things could always be worse, I suppose: YOU could be raising them.
steve mock
Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> > >Ask any psychologist or psychiatrist what your
> > >> >ravings demonstrate.
>
> > >> Whom should I ask: GIlbert and Freud?
>
> > > Ask a living one.
>
> > Pseduo-science.
>
> Sure. Right.
Methinks our friend Mr. Bellinger has had a bad experience or two. Perhaps a shrink who
told him something he didn't particularly like, hmmm?
Steve Mock
Hilary Ostrov
On 20 May 1998 23:31:28 GMT, in
<199805202331...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
[...]
[John Morris]
>>
>>[...]
>>>I'm beginning to think he is a borderline psychotic.
>>
>>Sorry, John. I think you give him too much credit. Unless I'm very
>>much mistaken, those who are psychotic (whether borderline or not),
>>customarily have a respectable - if not high - degree of intelligence.
>>Bellinger has not demonstrated any sign of intelligent life in the
>>universe he calls his brain.
>>
>>>The more he is
>>>pressed for proof, the more his claims are demonstrated to be false,
>>>the more ridiculous and under-evidenced his claims become. It is as if
>>>the more he has to confront reality, the more he retreats into
>>>fantasies of secret organizations, murders made to look like suicides,
>>>authentic documents with "interpolations," and criminals who are
>>>really victims.
>>
>>Is he not merely spouting the "revisionist" party line a la Zundel?
>>Sure looks like it to me.
>
>As opposed to your Nizkook line? Physician-heal thyself.
Thank you for your acknowledgement that you are merely spouting the
"revisionist" party line a la Zundel.
William Daffer
In article <199805210254...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> >Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 22:37 EDT
> >Message-id: <35639...@news3.enter.net>
>
> > Let's review the bidding:
> >
> > You have claimed that Muench "plea bargained." He did not.
>
> He agreed to testify against his fellow accused and in exchange for
> that testimony he was later exonerated by the Communist court which
> tried him. This info I gleaned from Posner's book on Mengele.
> Furthermore, according to Judge Staeglich;
>
> This witness was stationed at a sub-camp Raisko, approximately 4 kilometers
> southeast of Birkenau. As is evident, he knew nothing of the extermination
> facilities from his own observation. He is a particularly characteristic
> example of the complaisant witness. {Pg 340., #109.).
>
> >
> > You have claimed that Muench never particpated in gasssings. He
> >states that he did.
>
> What he stated is that he once witnesses what he claimed was a
> gassing but that he never participated.
>
> >
> >You have stated that he stated he know nothing of the "medical"
> >experiments. he says he did.
>
> I stated that according to Posner, Muench stated that he knew nothing of
> Mengele's experiments.
>
> >
> >Confronted with a statement he made in 1992 to that effect, you
> >claimed it was a "forgery."
> >
> >
>
> I don't remember that. Please quote me verbatim.
>
In message Message-ID:
<199805202334...@ladder01.news.aol.com> there is the
following exchange between yourself and Yale,
(begin quote)
yfe>>
yfe>> Well "according to information" from an unstated source. How
yfe>> convincing. Those who wish to see the statements of Dr. Hans
yfe>> Muench, including an affidavit made in 1992, where he states that
yfe>> he was assigned the dirty job of attending gassings and declaring
yfe>> when the victims were dead, are referred to:
yfe>>
yfe>> The Cybrary of the Holocaust:
yfe>> http://www.remember.org
yfe>>
yfe>> Bellinger will, of course, come up with his usual excuses.
yfe>>
yfe>>
yfe>>
yfe>> --YFE
yfe>>
yfe>>
jb> Sounds like you will come up with the usual forgeries.
(end quote)
I think this was meant as something of a throw-away comment. But, I
suggest you be careful of them, since they can come back to haunt you
rather quickly, as in this case (after about 4 posts)
--
My mail address has been mangled by my mailer. Send replies to...
daf...@primenet.com
--
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Groucho Marx.
Debunks
>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
>Date: Thu, May 21, 1998 00:34 EDT
>Message-id: <3563AEF3...@veritas.nizkor.org>
Not at all. I am interested in psychology and so on, but it is a relatvely new
field. I happen to think that Freud was an enormously intelligent man who made
wonderful contributions to this new science, along with Jung. In fact, while
most "rightists" prefer Jung, I feel that Freud was much more pragmatic, and
that he was the master, rather than the student. Of course Jung was more or
less a protege of Freud, and while I do not impugn his intelligence in the
least, as he was a man of immense intellectual stature, I find Freud's
pragmatism much more compelling than esoterism.
Amor vincit monia/
Debunks
>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
>Date: Thu, May 21, 1998 02:31 EDT
>Message-id: <35638050....@news.uniserve.com>
Only someone as disoriented as yourself would assume this.
Debunks
>>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
>Date: Thu, May 21, 1998 11:50 EDT
>Message-id: <m2ogwrn...@daffer.net>
>
>
>
Snip
Why don't you simply post Muench's alleged comments from the Cybrary and I will
compare them with other statements.
Chuck Ferree
Debunks wrote:
>=====================
>Hilary Ostrov
Bellinger wrote:
Only someone as disoriented as yourself would assume this.
CF:>>>>>>Joe, let's please not talk about disorientation. You are not
qualified, and I watch as you slip further into unreality. It makes me sad,
Joe. I can't even shoot a sick dog anymore, this is a sad situation, Joe.
Really!
CF
Yale F. Edeiken
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >>Subject: Re: Dr. Hans Muench Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
> Why don't you simply post Muench's alleged comments from the Cybrary and I will
> compare them with other statements.
Why don't you do your own research. His statements contradict your entire
thesis of a massive Jewish conspiracy. In fact, they destroy it.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/