Another Whole Nine Yards (was Re: Is this True?)
Dan Hartung
news:20010324121554...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
> I don't believe that linguists really have nailed down where "the
whole nine
> yards" originated. See, for e.g.,
> http://lawlibrary.ucdavis.edu/LAWLIB/Sept99/0456.html .
Merriam-Webster got
> into the act with
http://www.m-w.com/mw/mw/textonly/wftw/97dec/120997.htm . One
> source says it has to do with prison construction, of all things:
> http://members.aol.com/steffenje/asknine.html . A really great
description is
> to be found in World Wide Words:
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/nineyards.htm .
It's very amusing that something with no confirmed cite newer than
1970 would have so many origins suggested that always begin with
"...used to ..." as in sailing ships, Scottish kilts, brides' veils,
and so on. Your common man does seem convinced that all word origins
must be in Olden Times.
Since I've become disenchanted with all of the consensus origins, I'm
increasingly leaning toward the feeling ... and that's all it is ...
that it came into the language slantwise, e.g. from a non-concrete
[that's a joke there] origin such as a joke or an ironic reference. I
make the assumption that the very earliest references will be telling
in what they have in common.
That the OED has resorted to citing a Word Watcher periodical from
1970 is a fact, in itself, quite curious: what was the question? who
was asking?
Ah, ReNews comes through with this afu post from last fall (ca.
release of movie with same title):
:begin quote:
Subject: Re: The Whole Nine Yards
From: Jesse T Sheidlower (jes...@panix.com)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
Date: 2000-09-03 06:26:09 PST
In article <8or07l$8kb$1...@news.panix.com>, Ian A. York
<iay...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <8oqdcv$gc7$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
>Ulo Melton <melt...@sewergator.com> wrote:
>>
>>Interesting. I keep hearing that the phrase dates from the 1950s or
'60s,
>>but I've never seen an example to prove it. Does anybody know of a
cite
>>earlier than the OED's?
>
>The alt.usage.english makes the statement that it was used in the
1950s,
>but provides no reference; ditto Cecil Adams.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower, in a column for Random House which I can find only
in
>quoted form, says 1966, and adds "An unreliable book has claimed that
it
>dates from the 1950s, which is itself not that implausible." At
least in
>the quoted versions of his column, the specific reliable and
unreliable
>sources are not mentioned, though. You could ask him.
The unreliable book making an itself-notunreliable claim is Robert
Hendrickson's _Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins._ This book is
also the source of the assertion in the a.u.e. FAQ [1] [2], so the
1950s claim should not be regarded as doubly attested.
The 1966 source is Elaine Shepherd's _The Doom Pussy,_ an early memoir
of the Vietnam War by a nurse who served there.
There is also evidence for U.S. college use from 1968 in the
_Current Slang_ periodical, a later edition of which is cited
by the OED for its 1970 quote.
[1] Source: Mark Israel, former maintainer of the FAQ.
[2] This sort of thing is common and dangerous. Some
unreliable or semi-reliable source will make a claim that is
picked up in increasingly more reliable sources, and before
long the single claim is found all over the place in normally
trustworthy sources. In most cases the a.u.e. FAQ is very
reliable, but here it spreads a bad story because it was
plausible to begin with. The totally untrustworthy works of
Eric Partridge are notorious in this regard.
Jesse Sheidlower
OED
<jes...@panix.com>
:end quote:
It's quite intriguing that the first reference here, 1966's Doom Pussy
[1], is a personal account of Vietnam service likely to include much
slang, especially military. I'd love to see the actual context. Was it
by one of the pilots of the bombers referred to by the title[2]? Did
the writer report actual Vietnam slang, or had she heard it somewhere
else and applied it to one of her characters? Is she still alive???
[1] http://www.larkfarm.com/books/three_war_correspondents.htm
[2] a reference to Da Nang bomber squadrons
http://www.b-57canberra.org/vietnam.htm and
http://www.b-57canberra.org/CatOf%20DeathStory.htm
There's also this by Lee Ayrton last November.
:begin quote:
Subject: Whole Nine Yards -- an interesting possibility
From: Lee Ayrton (lay...@connix.com)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
Date: 2000-11-08 08:41:41 PST
This came to me via FidoNet. I thought it an intriguing possibility
and one that fits in with my own irrational suspicion that the popular
phrase was perhaps the punchline to a joke.
_______________o/______CUT___________
O\ HERE
25 Oct 00 13:08, Winston Smith wrote to Lee Ayrton:
LA>> My completely unscientific gut feeling is that it is the
LA>> punch line from a joke or skit.
WS> The American writer Jean (Gene?) Shepard of "A Christmas Story"
WS> from the 1980's, Gene Shepard Presents America on PBS from the
WS> 1970's, and "Wanda Hickey's Night of Golden Memories" and "In God
We
WS> Trust
WS> All Others Pay Cash", told a story in the late 1960's (possibly
in
Sports
WS> Illustrated, but also in a radio monologue) of a titanic duel
between
WS> a running back and a sports flash photographer during a night
game.
WS> The running back demands the ball, and screams at the Q.B., "I'll
get
you
WS> your damn nine yards... the whole nine yards!" and then proceeds
at
WS> the climax of the story to run down-and-out and tackle the
annoying
flash
WS> photographer and smash his camera into tiny pieces. This story
may
WS> be the genesis of where the idea that "the whole nine yards"
means
WS> "putting in the extra effort for a group cause above and beyond
what
is
WS> expected". The timeframe of the expression matches the rise in
WS> popularity of professional football (i.e. American Rugby) in the
WS> American popular culture.
Thank you _very_ much for the citation, Winston. I'm going to forward
it
to alt.folklore.urban for discussion. "Nine yards" has been nagging
me
for a couple of years now.
Regards,
Lee
--- Msged TE 05
* Origin: Will Make Movies For Food. (1:320/455)
:end quote:
As a reply to this message made clear, though, Jean Shepherd is a
storyteller more than a reporter, and many of his "recollections" are
really reconstructed morality tales or shaggy-dog stories.
I did have a start at seeing "Elaine Shepard" (author of Doom Pussy)
and "Gene Shepard" both cited, but of course the latter is a
misspelling. So close!
Again, I'd like to see the context of early citations: are they using
it in this "group effort" sense, a "going the distance" sense, a "use
it completely" sense? There should be some commonality that at the
very least we can use to rule out explanations.