Oh, God! Why did he do it?
Terry L. Leonard
Hello all. The story I am about to tell you is absolutely true...I
almost spent the night in the hospital last night. I guess the best place
to begin is the begining.....
The ground was wet from the previous night's rain, but not enough to
keep this 16 year old horse fanatic from riding. At first I took out my
Saddlebred to lunge and test the ground. He did very well and was
comfortable with the soft ground. For a half an hour I let him run on the
lunge line, hoping to calm him down or at least tire him out before our
ride. Once he seemed to be alright I decided to try out my new english
saddle on him. I had been pleasure/trail riding in a western saddle
before and with college in the next year or two I thought I should get in
a little english practice.
Once saddled, he was ready to go and I thought about putting him back on
the lunge line, but regretfully I didn't. First, we rounded a couple of
my neighbors stray calves back onto their side of the fence. I cued my
horse for a gentle canter and instead got a bolt almost into a gallop!
Barely stopping before the bob-wire fencing, we got the job done. After
this it was very clear that he thought, as always, that he was here, not
to easilly be ridden, but to just run full out. I headed him back towards
the barn, and having to keep a VERY tight rein on him so he wouldn't
break, barely made it back! I tied his tongue down with a piece of twine,
a trick which I learned from an old trainer. I though after this he will
settle down and will be ok. Guess I was wrong! The minute we came out of
the barn he was back at it. I decided that maybe I should just find a
good place and let him go. So, I took him to a pretty steep hill just off
our property. I let him take his head for a minute while going up and
then tried to take it back once at the top. Yes, I said TRIED!! He
continually pushed on, though I was doing my best and had his mouth pryed
open gagging him with the bit, over the top of the hill and down the
other side, then on to the top and a bob-wire fence of the next! I barely
got him turned before running through the fence.
The turn didn't help much though! It only headed us down an even steeper
hill! The worst part was that he thought he was to run down this hill and
wouldn't turn back up! I finally called on all my strength and got him
turned. At first I just tried to get him to stand still. Then I got off
and tried tightening the bridle a little for more control. He seemed a
little better after that and so I decided to continue on down a trail.
Having my english saddle on and preparing to ride jumpers in college(the
horse I was on right now) I thought we would do some exercises over
fallen logs. He was doing fine, other than the fact that he tried to take
his head after each jump. Finally, we were headed out of the wooded area.
I'm still not sure what it was, but something spooked him. He bolted over
a log and I lost my stirrups. I immediately began to fall and grabbed for
the mane, or the horn of a western saddle. I tore my fingernail and
bruised the side of my finger doing that. Failing to get a good grip I
decided to just let go and drop into the leaves and brush. What I didn't
think of was the two nice trees in that brush! Just as I fell and was at
a parallel to the horse, he jerked away turning his hind quarters towards
me. I was thrown with my back up against the tree. It hit directly on my
spine in the upper portion of my body. Needless to say it nocked the wind
out of me and I blacked out for a few seconds. I don't even remember
hitting the ground. Once I came to I looked for my horse and saw him
heading off down the trail at the top of the next hill doing a good
prancing canter. I struggled a little bit and got up. I took a look at my
arm because it was stinging. Only looking down to see about ten scratches
and a gash taken out of my arm by a stick in the leaves.
My first thought was to just leave him and get help for myself, but of
course that's not my nature. So, instead I took off on foot down the
trail. The wet ground made for bad footing, but good tracking. I knew
that trail by heart and so did my horse! I thought that either the small
creek, he doesn't like water too well, or the band of horses in the next
field would be sure to stop him. I was exausted and in a lot of pain, but
found him about four or five feet back up the hill from the creek where
he had just stopped. It was as if he either knew he had done something
terrible or was just saying, "OK, this is far enough. Come and get me."
He stood still, not even a muscle twitched while I approached. I walked
right up and took the reins. I know the first rule of horseback riding is
if you fall off, you get right back on, but in my case it was nearly
impossible. And even if I could I wouldn't have trusted him with my life
on the way home. We walked all the way home, about a mile, side by side.
Once home dad saw my arm and asked what had happened. I simply told him,
"Oh, Glory just decided to take a little walk in the woods by himself."
Well, thanks for listening! I know it was a long story, but I had to
start at the begining.
Kim, Glory, & BJ
jover...@geisinger.edu
Why do you tie his tongue down with a piece of twine? Is this another
troll?!
Adrienne Regard
In article <32CC60...@tricon.net> "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net> writes:
>C.M.Newell wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard"
>> <glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
>> Long tale of serious lack of judgement snipped....
x> Is this a troll, or are you really offering yourself up for
x> crucifixion?
>Please excuse my language but what the HELL are you talking about???? I'm
Absolute troll, CM.
--
Adrienne Regard
Standard Disclaimer. I'm not speaking for anybody but me. And I probably
snipped the original text...
Terry L. Leonard
C.M.Newell wrote:
>
> On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard"
> <glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
>
> Long tale of serious lack of judgement snipped....
>
> --CMNewell
> ************
> "From a sea song foaming
> with slashing brine;
> from a sunbeam springs
> a horse with tangled mane." R.Hunter
Please excuse my language but what the HELL are you talking about???? I'm
the one who got hurt and all you can do is cut on me!! I'm never a cruel
rider and if you see it that way I am sooooo sorry! I use the tongue tie,
which by the way is NOT cutting off the circulation tight if that's what
you think, to keep him from "playing with" or "chewing" the bit! I
tightened his bridle because I usually ride with it a hole loose to give
him some freedom!!! And it wasn't my fault he spooked! And one more thing
why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
couldn't have known he was going to spook!! And I don't have an prissy
little areana to ride in like some of "you"!!
All I want to say is that I'm not one of theses that gets on here and
writes the "Horses Suck!" posts!! I'm no f'n TROLL either!!!! I am
truelly sorry if you took my story the wrong way!! YFB!!!
You would have probably liked it better if I had come out parallized!
Right????!!!
Kim
C.M.Newell
domador
Terry L. Leonard wrote:
>
> Hello all. The story I am about to tell you is absolutely true...I
> almost spent the night in the hospital last night. I guess the best place
> to begin is the begining.....
>
> Well, thanks for listening! I know it was a long story, but I had to
> start at the begining.
>
[Kindly reference my post RE:Hot Horse of Wednesday. I rest my
case.]
> Kim, Glory, & BJ
Jackson
There is no bit or device you can use that will stop a horse bent on
fighting and/or fleeing. It's their instinct. Before you consider taking
your horse out alone again, you need to establish better communication
with him in a safe, small space. You need to be the herd leader in his
life, or yours will constantly be in danger. You are setting up a
dangerous, adversarial relationship with him which you probably won't be
able to win.
To begin with, it <sounds> like your horse is not getting enough
turnout or exercise on his own. If he is turned out daily, chances are
good he will deal with his own excess energy. It might be worth finding
a pasture to stick him in for a while. Next, you need to establish a
regular work schedule with him, on which he can depend. Why should he
listen to you if you won't commit to a regular schedule of training with
him? He may just be a pleasure horse, but even so he must learn manners
or he won't be much of a pleasure, will he?
Just so no one thinks I'm coming from a lofty place, I made all the
mistakes I've commented on with my own horses and learned the "facts of
life" the hard way. Alsoć‚ have never taken a John Lyons or Pat Parelli
seminar, but I think those two are possibly onto something with this
Horse-Man-Ship thing.
Bonnie (with her errant Paint, Goodman, who helped her learn everything
she knows about becoming a herd leader) in AZ
Jackson
Thanks, Deborah. Those were the other things I was going to say...;->
Bonnie in AZ
John T. Klausner
In <32CC1D...@geisinger.edu> jover...@geisinger.edu writes:
>
>Why do you tie his tongue down with a piece of twine? Is this another
>troll?!
I was thinking about this - didn't s/he start out in an English saddle,
and about the point of bouncing off in the woods, started grabbing for
the horn...?? The question wasn't "why did _he_ do this", in my mind
the question was "why did "you" do this"? An example of what not to
do...!!!
SueK
Chad & Nicole Grainger
Kim,
Tongue Ties are used on the racetrack to prevent a horse from getting
his tongue over the bit or swallowing it ( not really just letting it
cut off air-old racetrack thing) It is generally held that you are not
being kinder to the horse by having a loose bridle which allows the bit
to hit the horses teeth therby causing all kinds of problems.
Now, on to the rest, yes, I think everyone is sorry that you got hurt.
We can all sympathize with a tough horse.
In my humble opinion ( I retrain race horses and teach young QH's and
TB's to accept saddle, bridle and rider) as well as I school other
horses in dressage and jumping. I never allow a horse to run on the
longe line, on top of horses getting hurt it seems to make them higher
than ever. Instead a 20 minute trot seems to take the edge off of a hot
horse. Then you need to teach this horse the true meaning of what whoa
is. Until this horse understand whoa you are going to have problems.
The horse has to respect you and this starts on the ground.
Nicole
Terry L. Leonard wrote:
Sullys Maze
In article <32cc6f35...@news.ultranet.com>,
res...@deyr.ultranet.com (C.M.Newell) writes:
>
>I wasn't going to bother with this, but Terry specifically asked what
>the hell I was talking about....
>
Charlotte, you forgot one:
>
>> After
>>this it was very clear that he thought, as always, that he was here, not
>>to easilly be ridden, but to just run full out. I headed him back towards
>>the barn, and having to keep a VERY tight rein on him so he wouldn't
>>break, barely made it back! I tied his tongue down with a piece of twine,
>>a trick which I learned from an old trainer.
>
She says that "he thought, AS ALWAYS, that he was here not to
easily be ridden, but to just run full out." Demonstrates this
is normal behavior with this horse. I want to know where the
parents are in all this. Why are THEY letting a 16 year old poor
rider go out alone on a poorly trained horse?>
Karen
Marie
I'm
> the one who got hurt and all you can do is cut on me!! I'm never a cruel
> rider and if you see it that way I am sooooo sorry! I use the tongue tie,
> which by the way is NOT cutting off the circulation tight if that's what
> you think, to keep him from "playing with" or "chewing" the bit! I
> tightened his bridle because I usually ride with it a hole loose to give
> him some freedom!!! And it wasn't my fault he spooked! And one more thing
> why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
> couldn't have known he was going to spook!!
All of this plus the rest of your snipped posts practially screams
amateur, and ignorance. A bridle should *always* be adjusted
correctly. A twine tongue tie is not proper equipment, and can be very
uncomfortable or cruel for the horse. Playing with and chewing the bit
is not necessarily a *bad* thing, and can help with acceptance and
softness. Lunging a horse to tire him out before riding shows a serious
problem with lack of training/fear/mental stability (take your pick).
Riding a horse with aforementioned problems in bad footing, alone, in an
escalating, dangerous, runaway situation was foolish, at best.
> You would have probably liked it better if I had come out parallized!
> Right????!!!
> Kim
I don't believe anyone would wish that on another person. You are
letting emotions run your post, instead of looking at this in a logical
manner.
Your horse is afraid, for what ever reason, and most likely in pain.
You have contributed to the situation. The best thing you can do for
yourself and your horse is get professional help...and I don't mean the
horse trader down the road, but *certified professional help*. Your
horse will thank you for it.
Deborah Stevenson
In <5ahete...@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> reg...@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne
Regard) writes:
>>C.M.Newell wrote:
>
>>> On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard" wrote:
>
>>> Long tale of serious lack of judgement snipped....
>
>x> Is this a troll, or are you really offering yourself up for
>x> crucifixion?
>Absolute troll, CM.
I don't think so. Terry's been posting for a bit and all seems to be
above board. I think this is, as she said, the tale of a
sixteen-year-old horse fanatic who had to ride, and who let that impair
her judgment.
So... Terry, I'm sorry you got hurt and I'm glad it wasn't worse.
But you are *really* going to get hurt soon if you don't rethink some of
your actions that led to this situation.
I'll let the more experienced on this group deal with your story point by
point, if they will. Overall, however, it sounds like you and your horse
need a lot more training for what you're doing, and that you're trying to
substitute gadgets for basics, with predictable results. Your comments
about tying his tongue down and pulling back until you're gagging him
with the bit suggest that you don't know how to stop him and he doesn't
know what it means when you try. Therefore I would advise 1) staying the
*hell* away from barbed wire (difficult in some areas, but preferable to
horseburger, no?) and 2) finding a trainer to help you with this. Don't
protest that things are just fine the way they are--if they were just fine,
you wouldn't have had the experience you just did.
The people who have responded to you with astonishment don't just ride in
arenas, either. It's because they *do* know what outside riding at high
speed is like that they've been incredulous about your story. You're
clearly aware you might have been hurt even worse than you were--there
are things you can do to make that a lot less likely than it currently
is. Even if they dent your pride a bit, it's worth considering them.
Good luck.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Who knows when pride goeth in Champaign, IL, USA
[posted and emailed]
T. E COUCH
In <5aheue$h...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> bis...@ix.netcom.com(Richard
Bishop) writes:
>
>In <32CC60...@tricon.net> "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net>
>writes:
>>
>>C.M.Newell wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard"
>>> <glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Long tale of serious lack of judgement snipped....
>>>
>>> --CMNewell
>>> ************
>>> "From a sea song foaming
>>> with slashing brine;
>>> from a sunbeam springs
>>> a horse with tangled mane." R.Hunter
>>
>>Please excuse my language but what the HELL are you talking about????
>>the one who got hurt and all you can do is cut on me!! I'm never a
>cruel
>>rider and if you see it that way I am sooooo sorry! I use the tongue
>tie,
>>which by the way is NOT cutting off the circulation tight if that's
>what
>>you think, to keep him from "playing with" or "chewing" the bit! I
>>tightened his bridle because I usually ride with it a hole loose to
>give
>>him some freedom!!! And it wasn't my fault he spooked! And one more
>thing
>>why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
prissy
>
>>little areana to ride in like some of "you"!!
>> All I want to say is that I'm not one of theses that gets on here
and
>
>>writes the "Horses Suck!" posts!! I'm no f'n TROLL either!!!! I am
>>truelly sorry if you took my story the wrong way!! YFB!!!
parallized!
>
>>Right????!!!
>
>with the bit. It makes his mouth moist and keeps him relaxed. And
>your lengthy story went on and on, every sentence listing another
>really dangerous disaster. It is quite clear that you haven't a clue
>as to how silly your actions were.
>BTW, riding in an arena isn't 'prissy,' it's an excellent place for
>training horses.
>You need riding lessons, the horse needs to be trained, and you need
to
>stay in a confined area until you learn a bit more.
>
>>
>> Kim
>
>And we really don't care whether you were 'parallized' or 'squared.'
>
>Sue
>
And I submit that the horse is already trained- just look at how well
he moves away from pressure.
C.M.Newell
On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 17:27:51 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard"
<glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
>Please excuse my language but what the HELL are you talking about???? I'm
>the one who got hurt and all you can do is cut on me!!
OK, sionce you ask, I'll go back to your original post and
explain what I mean. But you probably won't like it. Maybe you should
just skip it. Clarly you want sympathy, not criticism.
> I'm never a cruel
>rider and if you see it that way I am sooooo sorry!
I didn't say cruel. I said "lack of judgement", i.e., clueless.
I use the tongue tie,
>which by the way is NOT cutting off the circulation tight if that's what
>you think, to keep him from "playing with" or "chewing" the bit! I
>tightened his bridle because I usually ride with it a hole loose to give
>him some freedom!!! And it wasn't my fault he spooked! And one more thing
>why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
>couldn't have known he was going to spook!! And I don't have an prissy
>little areana to ride in like some of "you"!!
Don't have an arena either. Got a cleared spot out behind my barn,
unfenced, and lots of trails.
> You would have probably liked it better if I had come out parallized!
>Right????!!!
No, I'd have liked it better if you'd had enough sense not to
do half the stuff you did.
Kathie Dunn
In <32CC1D...@geisinger.edu> jover...@geisinger.edu writes:
>
>Why do you tie his tongue down with a piece of twine? Is this another
>troll?!
The practice of tongue-tying is NOT to keep a horse from bolting ... it
is to keep the horse from getting his/her tongue over the bit.
Try to not use brute strength with a run away ... turn 'em in circles!
C.M.Newell
I wasn't going to bother with this, but Terry specifically asked what
the hell I was talking about....
On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard"
<glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
>Hello all. The story I am about to tell you is absolutely true...I
>almost spent the night in the hospital last night. I guess the best place
>to begin is the begining.....
>
> The ground was wet from the previous night's rain, but not enough to
>keep this 16 year old horse fanatic from riding. At first I took out my
>Saddlebred to lunge and test the ground. He did very well and was
>comfortable with the soft ground. For a half an hour I let him run on the
>lunge line,
Mistake #1. Longing should be a training exercise, used in moderation.
Not only is running around on a longe poor training technique, serving
to razz a horse more than calm it, it is also detrimental to long term
soundness. The small diameter of the circle. causes undue torque and
stress to the legs.
> hoping to calm him down or at least tire him out before our
>ride. Once he seemed to be alright I decided to try out my new english
>saddle on him. I had been pleasure/trail riding in a western saddle
>before and with college in the next year or two I thought I should get in
>a little english practice.
Mistake #2. You took a horse in a less than clam frame of mind and
decided to switch equipment.
> Once saddled, he was ready to go and I thought about putting him back on
>the lunge line, but regretfully I didn't. First, we rounded a couple of
>my neighbors stray calves back onto their side of the fence. I cued my
>horse for a gentle canter and instead got a bolt almost into a gallop!
Mistake #3. You took a horse whose energy level and lack of calmness
already had you worried, and asked him to do something relatively
exciting in new equipment unsuited to the task at hand.
>Barely stopping before the bob-wire fencing, we got the job done.
Mistake #4. Working an unschooled animal in proximity to barbed wire.
> After
>this it was very clear that he thought, as always, that he was here, not
>to easilly be ridden, but to just run full out. I headed him back towards
>the barn, and having to keep a VERY tight rein on him so he wouldn't
>break, barely made it back! I tied his tongue down with a piece of twine,
>a trick which I learned from an old trainer.
Mistake #5. Tying down the tongue serves only to prevent a horse
getting his tongue over the bit, which was most likely not the case
with this animal. Additionally, twine is not a good material to use
for this purpose, being too abrasive.
> I though after this he will
>settle down and will be ok. Guess I was wrong! The minute we came out of
>the barn he was back at it. I decided that maybe I should just find a
>good place and let him go. So, I took him to a pretty steep hill just off
>our property. I let him take his head for a minute while going up
Mistake #6. You are having trouble getting the horse to listen to you
and you take him out and encourage him in the type of behavior you re
objecting to.
> and
>then tried to take it back once at the top. Yes, I said TRIED!! He
>continually pushed on, though I was doing my best and had his mouth pryed
>open gagging him with the bit,
Mistake #7. Hauling on a horse's mouth is not the way to stop him.
> over the top of the hill and down the
>other side, then on to the top and a bob-wire fence of the next! I barely
>got him turned before running through the fence.
Se mistake #4.
> The turn didn't help much though! It only headed us down an even steeper
>hill! The worst part was that he thought he was to run down this hill and
>wouldn't turn back up! I finally called on all my strength and got him
>turned. At first I just tried to get him to stand still. Then I got off
>and tried tightening the bridle a little for more control.
Mistake #8. A bridle should be properly adjusted, period. Tightening
or loosening "for more control" is not an option. It is either fitted
properly or it is not.
> He seemed a
>little better after that and so I decided to continue on down a trail.
>Having my english saddle on and preparing to ride jumpers in college(the
>horse I was on right now) I thought we would do some exercises over
>fallen logs.
Mistake #9. You can't ride this horse on the flat, and you are trying
to teach him how to jump?
> He was doing fine, other than the fact that he tried to take
>his head after each jump.
Mistake #10. He should have had his head going over the jump.
>Finally, we were headed out of the wooded area.
>I'm still not sure what it was, but something spooked him. He bolted over
>a log and I lost my stirrups. I immediately began to fall...I don't even remember
>hitting the ground.... We walked all the way home, about a mile, side by side.
A glimmer of common sense. Maybe there is hope.
T. E COUCH
In <32CC26...@tricon.net> "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net>
writes:
>
I can't help but reply to this: First off , I am glad to hear you have
come out OK- now though , I have to ask HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND? For
your sake as well as your animals find someone to help you learn about
the nature of horses. Lunged for 30 minutes to tire your horse so you
can ride? There is no bit or rope around the tongue that will control a
fleeing prey animal- once the horse has run through the pain what else
is there? You cranked up the bridle for more control? Your horse
freaked and tried to rid himself of this horrible thing on his head by
running away! Please find someone to help you and learn to relax your
horse - this will be hard for him to get over.
tjst...@aol.com
In article <32CC26...@tricon.net>, "Terry L. Leonard" <glory1@tricon.
net> writes:
re: twit apocrypha
>[...] For a half an hour I let him run on the lunge line, hoping to calm
>him down or at least tire him out before our ride...
Nope, you did not let your Saddlebred RUN for half an hour, on soft
ground, on the end of a gyp rope. Assuming survival, any horse that
RUNS for half an hour is going to be kicking his tongue out of the way,
not hauling twits on various misadventures.
Please be more careful in the future: twits and trolls are both in season
and you may get a little unscheduled rhinoplasty if the twit/troll patrol
catches you at your parents' keyboard.
Tom Stovall
AFA Journeyman Farrier
TJSt...@aol.com
Jeanne Hinds
Deborah Stevenson wrote:
> >
> >x> Is this a troll, or are you really offering yourself up for
> >x> crucifixion?
>
> >Absolute troll, CM.
>
> I don't think so. Terry's been posting for a bit and all seems to be
> above board. I think this is, as she said, the tale of a
> sixteen-year-old horse fanatic who had to ride, and who let that impair
> her judgment.
Thank you, Deborah, for saying what you did. Frankly, some poeple on
this newsgroup can get so obsessed about finding trolls that it has
deteriorated into a near witch hunt with McCarthy-ism overtones. Group
dynamics are such that once the accusation of "troll!" is leveled, the
feeding frenzy begins. I, for one, am not about to relate my faux pas
in training and daily living with my horses lest I get pounced on for
alleged incompetence based on my naivete.
This thread took a decidely ad hominem flavor by some pompous ass
posters before some of the more congenial members of this newsgroup
interjected with some rational advice and comments. Net result?
Definately a pissed off Terry who posted the original article; an
environment of condescension and bullying rather than gentle nurturing
(which makes me wonder how some people really train their horses). It
wouldn't surprise me if Terry never posted to rec.equeatrian again but
then that would have accomplished what seems to be the primary goal of
some posters to this newsgroup, i.e. rid it of naive but well meaning
people who just don't train or handle their horses in what I consider to
be rec.equestrian's version of political correctness. (For an example:
lunging an excited horse prior to riding. Several posts poo-pooed that
as a stupid training technique yet every trainer and instructor I
personally know utilizes lunging to get the bucks out, calm the horse
down before riding, etc. This includes a graduate of Meredith Manor, a
certified state open horse show judge, and a former Olympic team member.
Obviously there is a great deal of variance of opinions on the issue of
lunging prior to riding.)
So, next time troll hunters (and you know who you are), how about
checking DejaNews first to ascertain the person's posting history and
then tempering your responses to reflect a more constructive response?
Jeanne
Terry L. Leonard
Thanks for the advice!! I have tried turning him in circles and one
comment I got from a neighbor was that :) "He would make a great barrel
horse!" :) I thought yeah if I can get him slowed down before he turns
himself over!:) Well, thanks!!
Kim
Terry L. Leonard
thank you, Deborah, for saying what you did. Frankly, some poeple on
I too thanks you Deborah!!
> be rec.equestrian's version of political correctness. (For an example:
> lunging an excited horse prior to riding. Several posts poo-pooed that
> as a stupid training technique yet every trainer and instructor I
> personally know utilizes lunging to get the bucks out, calm the horse
> down before riding, etc. This includes a graduate of Meredith Manor, a
> certified state open horse show judge, and a former Olympic team member.
> Obviously there is a great deal of variance of opinions on the issue of
> lunging prior to riding.)
>
> So, next time troll hunters (and you know who you are), how about
> checking DejaNews first to ascertain the person's posting history and
> then tempering your responses to reflect a more constructive response?
>
>
> Jeanne
Jeanne,
I had to thank you so much!!!! And must say that the lunging DOES work!
It usually calms him down a bit, which in turn relaxes me! It is
especially good to "get the bucks out" after he has been cooped up in the
barn for a few days due to rain!
Thanks!!
Kim
Adrienne Regard
In article <32CCC7...@mindspring.com> jmh...@mindspring.com writes:
>> >x> Is this a troll, or are you really offering yourself up for
>> >x> crucifixion?
>> >Absolute troll, CM.
>> I don't think so. Terry's been posting for a bit and all seems to be
>> above board. I think this is, as she said, the tale of a
>> sixteen-year-old horse fanatic who had to ride, and who let that impair
>> her judgment.
>Thank you, Deborah, for saying what you did. Frankly, some poeple on
>this newsgroup can get so obsessed about finding trolls that it has
(1) reviewing the recent crap posted in rec.equestrian, it's hardly an
obsession.
(2) reviewing the cascade of errors in Terry's post, where literally
everything wrong that could be thought of was in fact done, and literally
nothing right that could be done was, it's beyond the bounds of rationality
to assume any thinking person could make that many mistakes in one afternoon.
>Definately a pissed off Terry who posted the original article; an
Can we hope Terry is pissed off enough to sell the horse? Before it
kills him/her or before s/he kills it?
This isn't some little tale of a too-loose girth, if we are to believe the
incredible lack of judgement expounded upon. This was dangerous from
start to finish.
I for one am usually an advocate of kinder, gentler postings. And I for
one believed this post to be a troll, because if it wasn't, we need to
fear for the intelligence of future generations. If you will insist that
this is just some poor kid needing help, then here is my advice:
Sell this horse. Don't get on another until you've had
6 lessons in theory, and then only under instruction
for at least another 2 years. Don't buy another horse,
any other horse, until a full course of training has been finished.
Why so long? Because the actions described are not merely ignorance,
they are insane. S/he has as much UNlearning to do as learning. And
the first thing to unlearn or relearn is: when a ride starts off *this*
*bad*, untack and go home.
Donna Pattee
In article <32CC60...@tricon.net>,
>>
>> On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard"
>> <glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Is this a troll, or are you really offering yourself up for
>> --CMNewell
>> ************
>> "From a sea song foaming
>> with slashing brine;
>> from a sunbeam springs
>> a horse with tangled mane." R.Hunter
>
>rider and if you see it that way I am sooooo sorry! I use the tongue tie,
>you think, to keep him from "playing with" or "chewing" the bit! I
>tightened his bridle because I usually ride with it a hole loose to give
>him some freedom!!! And it wasn't my fault he spooked! And one more thing
>why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
>couldn't have known he was going to spook!! And I don't have an prissy
>little areana to ride in like some of "you"!!
>writes the "Horses Suck!" posts!! I'm no f'n TROLL either!!!! I am
>truelly sorry if you took my story the wrong way!! YFB!!!
>Right????!!!
>
Several people have said that you didn't show common sense on this pleasure
ride. I have a 16-year-old daughter, and if she had done what you did, it
would be back-to-basics-101 for a while. Your horse was bolting and not
listening, so you decided to let him run flat-out? You had no control, on
bad footing, so you let him take control? Yes, you had a bad ride, but you
contributed to it, it wasn't some unexplainable thing your horse suddenly
decided to do to you.
Do you have a real trainer? Someone who really knows something about
riding? How long have you had this horse?
Also, as several others have tried to point out: tying a horse's tongue
down is a way of keeping the horse from getting its tongue over the bit.
The act of tying the tongue down does NOT give you more control over the
horse. Granted you will have more control if the horse does not have its
tongue over the bit, but you still do not have more control with a
tied-down tongue than you do when the tongue is properly under the bit.
A tighter bridle probably doesn't give you more control either. If you
tighten the bridle until the horse can get no relief, you're probably just
going to piss him off.
A good trainer can teach you how to control your horse without harsh,
ineffective "tricks". He or she can also teach you how to properly adjust
your tack and how to deal with emergency situations. By the way, I speak
from experience: when I had been riding a few months, the horse that I was
leasing ran away with me (luckily not in conditions as dangerous as you
were in). I immediately asked my trainer to help me, and we worked on what
had happened and what I should have done for a couple of sessions. The next
time I was out in the fields and the same horse tried to run away with me
again, I knew exactly what to do and was able to deal with it right away.
John T. Klausner
In <5ai87s$j...@morrow.stanford.edu> Su...@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys
Maze) writes:
>
>In article <32cc6f35...@news.ultranet.com>,
>res...@deyr.ultranet.com (C.M.Newell) writes:
>>
>>the hell I was talking about....
>>
>>
>>> After
>>>this it was very clear that he thought, as always, that he was here,
not
>>>to easilly be ridden, but to just run full out. I headed him back
towards
>>>the barn, and having to keep a VERY tight rein on him so he wouldn't
>>>break, barely made it back! I tied his tongue down with a piece of
twine,
>>>a trick which I learned from an old trainer.
>>
>
>easily be ridden, but to just run full out." Demonstrates this
>is normal behavior with this horse. I want to know where the
>parents are in all this. Why are THEY letting a 16 year old poor
>rider go out alone on a poorly trained horse?>
>
>Karen
Because God, for some reason, always seems to put "horse children" in
the families of non-horsey people. Horsey people then have children
who can't stand the smell of horse poop. This is right up there with
the law that as soon as you throw something out, you need it. Her
parents, not knowing better, are probably in awe of her ability to work
with this obviously poorly trained horse, and unwilling to insist on
lessons or training because it costs big bucks. And they've already
spent ???? how much on buying and feeding the stupid thing - haven't
they done enough?? Betcha' she thinks she doesn't need help either!
SueK
Kris Anderson
In article <32CCC7...@mindspring.com> Jeanne Hinds,
jmh...@mindspring.com writes:
>Thank you, Deborah, for saying what you did. Frankly, some poeple on
>this newsgroup can get so obsessed about finding trolls that it has
>deteriorated into a near witch hunt with McCarthy-ism overtones. Group
>dynamics are such that once the accusation of "troll!" is leveled, the
>feeding frenzy begins. I, for one, am not about to relate my faux pas
>in training and daily living with my horses lest I get pounced on for
>alleged incompetence based on my naivete.
Well if we take all the posts seriously (no matter how unlikely they may
appear to be) then one of the oh-so-smug-ones is sure to post some
condescending pearls of learned wisdom about how "that was a troll and
you were an idiot to respond". :-)
I always thought that if you're not sure if someone's kidding or not
it's better to find out before going ballistic, so it seems reasonable to
me to ask someone if they're trolling or not. (Asking's only the same as
accusing for those who are overcome with paranoia over the possibilty of
being criticized.)
>This thread took a decidely ad hominem flavor by some pompous ass
>posters before some of the more congenial members of this newsgroup
>interjected with some rational advice and comments. Net result?
>Definately a pissed off Terry who posted the original article; an
>environment of condescension and bullying rather than gentle nurturing
>(which makes me wonder how some people really train their horses). It
>wouldn't surprise me if Terry never posted to rec.equeatrian again but
>then that would have accomplished what seems to be the primary goal of
>some posters to this newsgroup, i.e. rid it of naive but well meaning
Well meaning? Since when is it considered well-meaning to treat a horse
like that and then blame the horse?
>people who just don't train or handle their horses in what I consider to
>be rec.equestrian's version of political correctness. (For an example:
>lunging an excited horse prior to riding. Several posts poo-pooed that
>as a stupid training technique yet every trainer and instructor I
>personally know utilizes lunging to get the bucks out, calm the horse
>down before riding, etc. This includes a graduate of Meredith Manor, a
>certified state open horse show judge, and a former Olympic team member.
>Obviously there is a great deal of variance of opinions on the issue of
>lunging prior to riding.)
That's right. And IMO, this is a good place to discuss differing
opinions on different methods. Instead all we seem to want to do is cry
if someone disagrees with us, and tell everyone else what they should and
shouldn't say.
>So, next time troll hunters (and you know who you are), how about
>checking DejaNews first to ascertain the person's posting history and
>then tempering your responses to reflect a more constructive response?
Sometimes the level of ignorance, and the attitude toward horses and
learning is just too overwhelming to be worth making more than a token
effort to give an opinion. I think the advice given (get professional
help :-) ) was appropriate for the level of awareness which was
displayed in the post.
Kris, always careful to choose the fastest & squirreliest horse to evade
any possibly of being pounced upon, Anderson
kand...@williams.edu
Williamstown, MA
CA...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
In article <32CD49...@tricon.net>
> I too thanks you Deborah!!
>
>> lunging an excited horse prior to riding. Several posts poo-pooed that
>> as a stupid training technique yet every trainer and instructor I
>> personally know utilizes lunging to get the bucks out, calm the horse
>> down before riding, etc. This includes a graduate of Meredith Manor, a
>> certified state open horse show judge, and a former Olympic team member.
>> Obviously there is a great deal of variance of opinions on the issue of
>> lunging prior to riding.)
>>
>> checking DejaNews first to ascertain the person's posting history and
>> then tempering your responses to reflect a more constructive response?
>>
>>
>
>Jeanne,
> I had to thank you so much!!!! And must say that the lunging DOES work!
>It usually calms him down a bit, which in turn relaxes me! It is
>especially good to "get the bucks out" after he has been cooped up in the
>barn for a few days due to rain!
> Thanks!!
> Kim
I would like to make a comment on lunging. I have always lunged my
mare before riding her - to get the excess energy out of her. Many times she
would dig out at a dead run, and stopping her took a lot of yanking and jerking
on the lunge line. It seems to me that she was obviously out of control and
her frenzied running only fed itself and resulted in more running. It was like
her mind just clicked off and she no longer listened to anything. So, I have
thought a lot about this and this summer tried a different tact.
When I lunge her now I begin in a very small circle, just walking. Then
I do a lot of transitions walk-trot-walk-trot, small circle, very small and
controlled. The idea is not to wear her down, but to get her to listen to me.
I gradually let the lunge line out to increase the size of the circle. Then,
eventually I ask her to canter. I continue to ask for transitions, and keep
everything slow. If she were to start to speed up I would decrease size of
circle and go back to walk-trot-walk-trot.
This has worked amazingly well. It turns out, I really did not need to
lunge her to exhaustion, just keep her focused on me and thinking. Our lunge
time length has actually decreased, and I can mount up and head out for a trail
ride in much less time than when I allowed her to fly around on the lunge line
in a dead run. Saves her legs too.
Cheryl
Larry
"I couldn't have known" and "it's not my fault". The New Age excuse for
everything.
> >him some freedom!!! And it wasn't my fault he spooked! And one more
thing
> >why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
> >couldn't have known he was going to spook!! And I don't have an prissy
> >little areana to ride in like some of "you"!!
> >Right????!!!
> >
> > Kim
Phetsy Calderon
It
> wouldn't surprise me if Terry never posted to rec.equeatrian again but
> then that would have accomplished what seems to be the primary goal of
> some posters to this newsgroup, i.e. rid it of naive but well meaning
> people who just don't train or handle their horses in what I consider to
> be rec.equestrian's version of political correctness. (For an example:
> lunging an excited horse prior to riding. Several posts poo-pooed that
> as a stupid training technique yet every trainer and instructor I
> personally know utilizes lunging to get the bucks out, calm the horse
> down before riding, etc. This includes a graduate of Meredith Manor, a
> certified state open horse show judge, and a former Olympic team member.
> Obviously there is a great deal of variance of opinions on the issue of
> lunging prior to riding.)
Lunging, as 95% of horsemen will tell you, is as you pointed out, an
excellent technique for getting a horse's attention in a safe manner and
allowing him to do some work with less risk to the handler. I certainly
use it, being the owner of a more-than-somewhat hot Arabian. I think what
most posters objected to was the impression Terry gave that she was simply
letting the horse set the agenda by going at whatever speed HE chose. This
is _not_ good lunging technique. When I lunge my horse because he's too
wound up for me to enjoy the prospect of just stepping on him, the little
bugger starts out _walking_ until _I_ ask for a change of gait, and he
bloody well maintains gait and heading until _directed_ to do
otherwise.The question of political correctness regarding the reactions to
Terry's post does not arise.
As for Doc Newell's reaction asking if this were a troll, I'd say it was a
genuine response of being flabbergasted. Aside from that, I think this
thread has aroused such strong reactions because lots of us are imagining
just what could happen to Terry if somebody does not lay some cold hard
facts on her right now.
In my neck of the woods, that's not politically correct, but it sure is
compassionate.
Phetsy Calderon
phe...@earthlink.net
===========================================
The NightStar Company
Macintosh consulting * Internet tutoring * Mac troubleshooting
Voice/fax: 510/371-0445
Post: 4043 Guilford Ave., Livermore, CA 94550-5007
===========================================
Kris Carroll
On 01/02/97, Sullys Maze wrote:
> I want to know where the
>parents are in all this. Why are THEY letting a 16 year old poor
>rider go out alone on a poorly trained horse?>
Sure blame the victims. They're probably hiding in the basement, glad it's
out of the house.
Kris C.
Dobgirl
I want to know where the
>parents are in all this. Why are THEY letting a 16 year old poor
>rider go out alone on a poorly trained horse?>
>
Because God, for some reason, always seems to put "horse children" in
the families of non-horsey people. Horsey people then have children
who can't stand the smell of horse poop. This is right up there with
the law that as soon as you throw something out, you need it. Her
parents, not knowing better, are probably in awe of her ability to work
with this obviously poorly trained horse, and unwilling to insist on
lessons or training because it costs big bucks. And they've already
spent ???? how much on buying and feeding the stupid thing - haven't
they done enough?? Betcha' she thinks she doesn't need help either!
SueK
I couldn't agree more. While I didn't get to read the actual original
post, I gather that the young lady actually wanted some good advice, from
something that is probably her only source of information. Most of you
don't seem to remember that there is no one way to do anything, and that
every method she describes using on this horse I have read of, in the
past, in training books from both disciplines. The poor kid wants some
advice on how to deal with what is probably the only horse she has access
to, and she gets insulted? Try and remember sometime, what it was like
when you didn't know anything about horses, and what you would have done
if there hadn't been anyone to help you, only to insult you. Questioning
someone's intelligence isn't an effective means of education.
Jeanne Hinds
Terry L. Leonard wrote:
> > So, next time troll hunters (and you know who you are), how about
> > checking DejaNews first to ascertain the person's posting history and
> > then tempering your responses to reflect a more constructive response?
> >
> >
> > Jeanne
>
> Jeanne,
> I had to thank you so much!!!! And must say that the lunging DOES work!
> It usually calms him down a bit, which in turn relaxes me! It is
> especially good to "get the bucks out" after he has been cooped up in the
> barn for a few days due to rain!
> Thanks!!
> Kim
Do not get me wrong Terry. I think your parents are doing you a great
disservice not supervising your riding. I, as a parent, would have sold
your horse so fast after the incident you related in this newsgroup that
it would have made your head spin. You have far too much horse for your
age and experience.
WHat was clearly obvious (at least to this parent) was that your post
was written by a teenager and a naive one at that. What I deeply object
to is the blinding speed of judgementalism exhibited by referrring to
your post as troll bait rather the thoughtful observation that the post
was written by an uninformed teenager who needed to be redirected in her
riding techniques. Some people on this newsgroup were obviously born
trainers and horse people and never made a stupid mistake in their
lives.
Btw, I don't have an arena either but my kids do get an hour lesson
twice a month by a very good instructor in establishing ground manners,
balance, proper seat, etc. They are not allowed to progress to a faster
gait until they totally master the one they are learning. So, Nathaniel
spent an hour today posting and learning to turn Teddy by shifting his
butt and moving his shoulders with almost no rein direction. Emma is
just learning to rise in the saddle for a post but is still doing it at
a walk and Abby worked on cueing the pony to stop by sitting deep in the
saddle and also extending Philly's trot. When it is obvious that they
cannot handle more advanced skills, they go back to square one until
they do get it.
Jeanne
Adrienne Regard
>I couldn't agree more. While I didn't get to read the actual original
>post, I gather that the young lady actually wanted some good advice, from
>something that is probably her only source of information.
(1) The first statement is debatable, but just for the sake of discussion,
let's presume it to be true.
(2) There's fixes she can get off the net, and there's Bigger Problems.
Having read the original, I think this kid has Bigger Problems, and that
picking up a tip or two from the net and applying them to this horse in the
situations she described, the kid is going to get hurt bad.
Now, maybe she exaggerated a little bit, and it really isn't that awful,
but she sounded like she was lucky to make it home with no bones broken,
and that doesn't sound like a good word of advice or two is going to fix
things.
So far, she's been told (let's see how good memory is)
1. lunging at a run isn't smart
2. lunging to get the energy out may not work
3. tying down the tongue doesn't give her more 'control'
4. Cranking up the bridle probably doesn't either.
5. "Gagging" the horse (or attempting to) isn't the solution to a runaway.
6. Continuing to ride after things have gone wrong and wrong again is
probably not smart either.
Now, there are whole books written on the subject of riding and training
horses. Nobody's likely to post a whole book here (we're all hoping
not, anyhow, Tom's objections to the use of the royal we, noted).
So, what would be an example of kindly, useful advice that might help this
kid save her neck besides the omnipresent "Get help from someone who knows
what they are doing!" which was offered by almost everybody?
Look, there are lots of people who complain about what *is* posted,
but I don't see those people offering sound advice in a manner they
think is terrific.
Rather than complaining, *do* what you advocate. If all the complainers
did that, the 'negative' comments would be drowned in a veritable flood
of terrific sage advice we could *all* learn from.
I think.
So, here, how's this for January, since y'all feel so free telling the
rest of us how to post:
YOU shall now all post useful, sensible advice to any problematical
situation, as a studied and interested example to us all, and we shall
discover what seems to work the best.
How's that?
Buck Johnson
Terry L. Leonard wrote:
> First, we rounded a couple of my neighbors stray calves back onto their
> side of the fence. I cued my horse for a gentle canter and instead got a
> bolt almost into a gallop! Barely stopping before the bob-wire fencing,
> we got the job done.
Geez, I'm still wonderin' what happened to the poor calves???
Buck
Jeanne Hinds
Kris Anderson wrote:
>
> >This thread took a decidely ad hominem flavor by some pompous ass
> >posters before some of the more congenial members of this newsgroup
> >interjected with some rational advice and comments. Net result?
> >Definately a pissed off Terry who posted the original article; an
> >environment of condescension and bullying rather than gentle nurturing
> >(which makes me wonder how some people really train their horses). It
> >wouldn't surprise me if Terry never posted to rec.equeatrian again but
> >then that would have accomplished what seems to be the primary goal of
> >some posters to this newsgroup, i.e. rid it of naive but well meaning
>
> Well meaning? Since when is it considered well-meaning to treat a horse
> like that and then blame the horse?
Becasue the poster was a child. Lest we forget, teenagers think they
know everything but the reality is that they don't. It was obvious from
her post that some of things she did were based on recommendations of
other adults (the tongue tying down). In all fairness, she was
well-meaning so far as her experience would permit her to be. I grew up
riding horses in what I now consider to be a rather crude process of
communication. I treated my horses well and was well meaning but only
within the limits of my understanding. Would that naivety disqualify me
back then for horseownership or make me a target for every "troll"
accusation?
>
> >people who just don't train or handle their horses in what I consider to
> >be rec.equestrian's version of political correctness. (For an example:
> >lunging an excited horse prior to riding.
> That's right. And IMO, this is a good place to discuss differing
> opinions on different methods. Instead all we seem to want to do is cry
> if someone disagrees with us, and tell everyone else what they should and
> shouldn't say.
Discussion is one thing, the outright snobby, pompous attitude that some
people project is another. It is either their way of doing it or you
are somehow the most incompetent, idiotic, moronic, nefarious
horseowner ever to grace the threads of rec.equestrian. I posted a well
meaning question months ago regarding a TWH I owned that tripped quite a
bit and wondering if he was lazy, needed different shoes, what?
Instead I got contempuous emails from pompous donkey butts deriding me
for even daring to think so negatively about my horse. God Forbid! I
had referred to my horse as a possible "lazy slob" thus incurring the
wrath of the PC patrol of rec. equestrian for daring to use such a
degrading adjective! Didn't I know I was adversely affecting my horse's
self esteem by referring to him as "lazy"? *Sob* (insert Dramatic
gnashing of teeth and breast beating) While half of the responses were
kind or helpful, I now know that I must put up with a 50% crap ratio
when I post a request for help.
As I have said before, some people (certainly not all) post criticisms
as if they never, ever made a mistake in their lives. Well, good for
them! May we all be compelled to genuflect with awe to kiss the hem of
their poop encrusted chaps.
Jeanne
C.M.Newell
>As for Doc Newell's reaction asking if this were a troll, I'd say it was a
>genuine response of being flabbergasted.
That was precisely what I thought. The further I read in her post, the
less I believed someone could *really* pack so many serious mistakes
into one excursion. I really thought someone was pulling my leg.
--CMN
Shelley Z. Burson
Richard Bishop wrote:
>
> In <32CC60...@tricon.net> "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net>
> writes:
> >
> >C.M.Newell wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard"
> >> <glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Long tale of serious lack of judgement snipped....
> >>
> >> Is this a troll, or are you really offering yourself up for
> >> crucifixion?
> >> --CMNewell
> >> "From a sea song foaming
> >> with slashing brine;
> >> from a sunbeam springs
> >> a horse with tangled mane." R.Hunter
> >
> I'm
> >the one who got hurt and all you can do is cut on me!! I'm never a
> cruel
> >rider and if you see it that way I am sooooo sorry! I use the tongue
> tie,
> >which by the way is NOT cutting off the circulation tight if that's
> what
> >you think, to keep him from "playing with" or "chewing" the bit! I
> >tightened his bridle because I usually ride with it a hole loose to
> give
> thing
> >why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
> >couldn't have known he was going to spook!! And I don't have an prissy
>
> >little areana to ride in like some of "you"!!
>
> >writes the "Horses Suck!" posts!! I'm no f'n TROLL either!!!! I am
> >truelly sorry if you took my story the wrong way!! YFB!!!
> > You would have probably liked it better if I had come out parallized!
>
> >Right????!!!
>
> with the bit. It makes his mouth moist and keeps him relaxed. And
> your lengthy story went on and on, every sentence listing another
> really dangerous disaster. It is quite clear that you haven't a clue
> as to how silly your actions were.
> BTW, riding in an arena isn't 'prissy,' it's an excellent place for
> training horses.
> You need riding lessons, the horse needs to be trained, and you need to
> stay in a confined area until you learn a bit more.
>
> >
> > Kim
>
> And we really don't care whether you were 'parallized' or 'squared.'
>
> Sue
Oh Richard. I couldn't agree with you more, and yet I see SO MANY
people that themselves are untrained riding dangerous horses and doing
dangerous things. I just don't understand this at all. And, many, many
people I've come into contact with who have had no lessons of any kind,
truly believe they are experts (they believe in the wet saddle blanket
philosophy). But, they continue to do the same wrong things over and
over and over again. And, many of these people *have* seen bad equine
related accidents -- yet it doesn't jar them into really analyzing what
went wrong or how it could have been prevented. I swear, you just can't
get through to some people who truly believe they know it all.
I've taken riding lessons religiously (and yet on a VERY tight budget)
for 9 years -- and still I feel I've very barely scratched the surface
of what all there is to know. I thrive on learning (correctly I hope)
and yes, I still refer to myself as a beginner, but I have such a hard
time understanding people who won't learn from others. It just doesn't
make sense.
Shelley
Kris Carroll
On 01/02/97, Jeanne Hinds wrote:
>Becasue the poster was a child. Lest we forget, teenagers think they
>know everything but the reality is that they don't.
I vowed to stay out of this one.... but if this child (sic) had posted this
tale in jriders she would have been eaten alive. You'd be amazed at the
skills of some of these kids given half a brain. You'd also be shocked no
doubt to learn that some kids are real brats.
> It was obvious from
>her post that some of things she did were based on recommendations of
>other adults (the tongue tying down).
So she was brain washed? I say brain dead. Most kids can recognize abuse when
they see it. This one can't see beyond the end of her nose. And neither, it
seems, can you.
The rest of your post clearly shows your real concern - your feelings. You
and this 16yo claim the horse is the source of the problem. People who are
pros are telling it's not and you're indignant. My my.
Kris C.
John T. Klausner
My experience generally tells me that a horse that likes to run finds
running - on a lunge line, in a turnout, in fact in any way and any
where - to be intoxicating. If running away is the problem, it will
_not_ be reduced by running in any form, only exacerbated. Horse just
gets more conditioned. Long trotting is good, with hills even better,
but I couldn't agree with Cheryl more. She's right on.
SueK
In <17AEB8C...@slacvm.slac.Stanford.EDU>
CA...@slacvm.slac.Stanford.EDU writes:
>
>In article <32CD49...@tricon.net>
>"Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net> writes:
>
>>
>>thank you, Deborah, for saying what you did. Frankly, some poeple on
>> I too thanks you Deborah!!
>>
>>> be rec.equestrian's version of political correctness. (For an
example:
>>> lunging an excited horse prior to riding. Several posts poo-pooed
that
>>> as a stupid training technique yet every trainer and instructor I
>>> personally know utilizes lunging to get the bucks out, calm the
horse
>>> down before riding, etc. This includes a graduate of Meredith
Manor, a
>>> certified state open horse show judge, and a former Olympic team
member.
>>> Obviously there is a great deal of variance of opinions on the
issue of
>>> lunging prior to riding.)
>>>
>>> So, next time troll hunters (and you know who you are), how about
>>> checking DejaNews first to ascertain the person's posting history
and
>>> then tempering your responses to reflect a more constructive
response?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeanne
>>
>>Jeanne,
>> I had to thank you so much!!!! And must say that the lunging DOES
work!
>>It usually calms him down a bit, which in turn relaxes me! It is
>>especially good to "get the bucks out" after he has been cooped up in
the
>>barn for a few days due to rain!
>> Thanks!!
>> Kim
>
Harriet Roberts
Terry L. Leonard wrote:
> And must say that the lunging DOES work!
> It usually calms him down a bit, which in turn relaxes me! It is
> especially good to "get the bucks out" after he has been cooped up in the
> barn for a few days due to rain!
Why keep the horse cooped up in the barn because of rain? A little rain (even a
lot of rain) is not going to hurt a horse as long as the pasture isn't along a
creek that is going to flood.
--
Harriet Roberts
hrob...@acura.mitre.org
Marie
Judging by this child's replies to some of the helpful suggestions and
comments, I don't think she is looking for truth in her situation with
this horse. She wants to be told she did nothing wrong, and have a
quick fix applied to her problems. She and her horse both have some
major problems, and I foresee it leading to tragedy; probably for both
of them. It's truly a shame that the rider shows less common sense than
the animal.
Larry wrote:
>
> "I couldn't have known" and "it's not my fault". The New Age excuse for
> everything.
>
> > >him some freedom!!! And it wasn't my fault he spooked! And one more
> thing
> > >why did you call it a "Long tale of serious lack of judgement"? I
> > >couldn't have known he was going to spook!! And I don't have an prissy
> > >little areana to ride in like some of "you"!!
> > >Right????!!!
> > >
> > > Kim
Terry L. Leonard
John T. Klausner wrote:
> Because God, for some reason, always seems to put "horse children" in
> the families of non-horsey people. Horsey people then have children
> who can't stand the smell of horse poop. This is right up there with
> the law that as soon as you throw something out, you need it. Her
> parents, not knowing better, are probably in awe of her ability to work
> with this obviously poorly trained horse, and unwilling to insist on
> lessons or training because it costs big bucks. And they've already
> spent ???? how much on buying and feeding the stupid thing - haven't
> they done enough?? Betcha' she thinks she doesn't need help either!
> SueK
I must say you hit the nail right on the head!!! I am a horsey child born
into a family who could care less about horses! But as for the last
sentence I'm not a complete know-it-all and realize I can always use
help. Just unfortunately that's not what my parents are willing to give!
Kim
Terry L. Leonard
Donna Pattee wrote:
> Do you have a real trainer? Someone who really knows something about
> riding? How long have you had this horse?
I don't have a trainer currently. I've had this horse imparticular for
about 6 years. And believe it or not this is not as bad as he used to
be!! When dad bought him and suprised my with him at Xmas of '90 he was
beautifully behaved! I really think, no know, where we went wrong was
leaving him in our neighbors pasture with his group of QHs instead of
leaving him with the lady we bought him from for the few months it took
to build our fence and get the barn under construction.:( He just got
worse from then and after throwing the multitude of my cousins(he was the
only horse I had at the time) dad decided to board him at a barn with a
trainer. Need any more background? I'm always happy to oblige!
> By the way, I speak
> from experience: when I had been riding a few months, the horse that I was
> leasing ran away with me (luckily not in conditions as dangerous as you
> were in). I immediately asked my trainer to help me, and we worked on what
> had happened and what I should have done for a couple of sessions. The next
> time I was out in the fields and the same horse tried to run away with me
> again, I knew exactly what to do and was able to deal with it right away.
I would like to thank you for the advice! Unfortunately I cannot get a
trainer until college!:( But on the brighter side that's only a year or
two away, right? I would also like to know what your trainer told you
about your run away! Maybe it can help me in the future, until I can get
a suitable trainer. I had a trainer, but he did more harm than good!
That's why my dad is weary of finding me a new one.:( Well, thanks once
again!
Kim
Kris Anderson
In article <32CD25...@mindspring.com> Jeanne Hinds,
jmh...@mindspring.com writes:
>Kris Anderson wrote:
>> Well meaning? Since when is it considered well-meaning to
treat a horse
>> like that and then blame the horse?
>
>know everything but the reality is that they don't.
So she's a teenager? There are a lot of men, women and children who
think they know everything. Should that excuse them from having to take
flak when they're saying and doing things that someone else thinks is
dumb?
>It was obvious from
>her post that some of things she did were based on recommendations of
>other adults (the tongue tying down). In all fairness, she was
>well-meaning so far as her experience would permit her to be. I grew up
>riding horses in what I now consider to be a rather crude process of
>communication. I treated my horses well and was well meaning but only
>within the limits of my understanding. Would that naivety disqualify me
>back then for horseownership or make me a target for every "troll"
>accusation?
No one has the power to disqualify the ignorant and/or abusive from
horse ownership, but yes, I do think that when you air your experiences
and ideas on a public forum such as rec.eq you're asking for, and you're
going to get, honest reactions to what you post. IMO teenagers are
perfectly capable of adapting to, and learning from, direct comments
without interpreting them as personal assaults, as is anyone is who wants
to benefit from the free goodies on usenet.
>Discussion is one thing, the outright snobby, pompous attitude that some
>people project is another. It is either their way of doing it or you
>are somehow the most incompetent, idiotic, moronic, nefarious
>horseowner ever to grace the threads of rec.equestrian.
And that seems to be entirely a matter of perception. Some readers are
intent upon labelling any advice they don't want to hear as somehow
flawed, though if the responder is agreeing with or praising them the
"tone of voice" often seems to be perceived differently.
> I posted a well
>meaning question months ago regarding a TWH I owned that tripped quite a
>bit and wondering if he was lazy, needed different shoes, what?
>Instead I got contempuous emails from pompous donkey butts deriding me
>for even daring to think so negatively about my horse. God Forbid! I
had
>referred to my horse as a possible "lazy slob" thus incurring the
>wrath of the PC patrol of rec. equestrian for daring to use such a
>degrading adjective! Didn't I know I was adversely affecting my horse's
>self esteem by referring to him as "lazy"? *Sob* (insert Dramatic
>gnashing of teeth and breast beating)
Well, if your delete key's broken you could always tell them what you
really think. :-)
>While half of the responses were
>kind or helpful, I now know that I must put up with a 50% crap ratio
>when I post a request for help.
I guess nothing's free anymore, not even advice. If you're getting 50%
good advice though, it's a simple matter to dump the stuff you don't
like.
>As I have said before, some people (certainly not all) post criticisms
>as if they never, ever made a mistake in their lives. Well, good for
>them! May we all be compelled to genuflect with awe to kiss the hem of
>their poop encrusted chaps.
Actually we're not even required to react, much less kiss anything. In
fact, the poster doesn't even know if anyone read it, so we can just sit
here a laugh our asses off if we'd like, scratch our heads or anywhere
else that itches, flip 'em the bird, pop a aneurism getting into a
flutter--or read it while we're dusting the monitor and forget what we
read before we even get the next post opened up.
Kris, who supposes that we'd all get up and do something constructive if
the posts got bad enough , Anderson
kand...@williams.edu
Williamstown, MA
Mary Healey
In article <32CC60...@tricon.net>, "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net> writes:
>C.M.Newell wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:20:19 -0800, "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
>> <Long tale of serious lack of judgement snipped....>
>>
>> Is this a troll, or are you really offering yourself up for
>> crucifixion?
>
<inflamatory drivel deleted>
I think that answers your question, Dr. Newell.
--
Mary & the Ames (Iowa, USA) National Zoo:
Raise a Fund ("Regis", 11 yo TB); ANZ Sam-I-Am ("Sam", 6 yo ACDx);
ANZ Noah Doll, CGC, OFA Good ("Noah", 3 yo ACD); kitties from h*ll;
finches; fish; Guinea pigs (a1....@isumvs.iastate.edu)
Chad & Nicole Grainger
Dear Kim,
If you can not find a trainer there are several good books on basic
horsemanship that can/ and will help you develop a better relationship
with your horse. If you like I can send you a list of them. You are
obviously a bright girl or you would not be heading to college. I
back ( that is start youngsters) to saddle as well as i buy TB's off the
racetrack to retrain. everyone's comments about letting the horse run on
the longe line are correct. If your horse were mine, I would put a
plain snaffle in his mouth and put him on the longe line. I would start
on a small circle and just work on walk and whoa then I would increase
the circle till we could trot and do transitions. I don 't longe a
young or green horse at the canter. The only horses that canter on the
longe line are my school horses during lessons and more advanced horses
get to canter when in side reains to help develop their backs.
I am only 25 but when i was younger no one paid for my lessons. I
earned them the hard way. i traded out lessons for mucking stalls. At
one point I was taking 7-9 lessons a week for the work i did. There are
lots of ways to get experience. If you can find out who a reputable
trainer in the area is and ask if you can audit some of his/her
lessons. This is an excellent way to learn without spending a dime.
Nicole
John T. Klausner
In <32CD1B...@mindspring.com> Jeanne Hinds <jmh...@mindspring.com>
writes:
You know, I don't think it _was_ obvious that a "naive teenager" wrote
the original post. Maybe Kim should take that as a compliment! She
seemed to be in a pretty good froth at the time she wrote, and to be
honest, her writing, grammar and spelling were good, and pretty adult
sounding. Maybe that was why she got jumped on - she _didn't_ sound
like a young person. What a condemnation of our education system! In
any case, now that her age is determined, and perhaps some of the froth
has dissipated from her initial state, we can get down to some helpful
stuff. Adrienne (I think) has begun - Kim, take a deep breath and
begin again! If you disagree with what people say, say so, and discuss
your position. There _is_ a lot of experience on rec.eq. Make use of
it. It's free!
SueK
snipped
>> Thanks!!
>> Kim
>
>Do not get me wrong Terry. I think your parents are doing you a
great
>disservice not supervising your riding. I, as a parent, would have
sold
>your horse so fast after the incident you related in this newsgroup
that
>it would have made your head spin. You have far too much horse for
your
>age and experience.
>
>WHat was clearly obvious (at least to this parent) was that your post
>was written by a teenager and a naive one at that.
Snipped
>Jeanne
Richard Botterill
On Fri, 03 Jan 1997 08:46:46 +0000, Jeanne Hinds
<jmh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
(snip)
> It wouldn't surprise me if Terry never posted to rec.equeatrian again but
>then that would have accomplished what seems to be the primary goal of
>some posters to this newsgroup, i.e. rid it of naive but well meaning
>people who just don't train or handle their horses in what I consider to
>be rec.equestrian's version of political correctness.
I think it is more likely in this case that the first several posters
just could not =believe= that someone could know so little of
appropriate training methods, and could make so many dangerous
mistakes in a =single= session of riding. It's just unfortunate that
this post occurred when everyone seems to be into troll-hunting
season. I don't believe the goal of these posters is to drive naive
people out of the group, as in fact some of them have gone on to
explain the errors which Terry made, once it was realized that the
original post was not simply that of a troll. Certainly, rec.eq is
not noted for "suffering fools gladly", for want of a better way to
put it, but the overall intent is to educate in order to enhance the
safety and well-being of horse and rider.
>(For an example:
>lunging an excited horse prior to riding. Several posts poo-pooed that
>as a stupid training technique yet every trainer and instructor I
>personally know utilizes lunging to get the bucks out, calm the horse
>down before riding, etc. This includes a graduate of Meredith Manor, a
>certified state open horse show judge, and a former Olympic team member.
>Obviously there is a great deal of variance of opinions on the issue of
>lunging prior to riding.)
Yes, but lunging must be done correctly for it to be of value in this
situation. Terry's original post stated that she "let" the horse
"run" for 1/2 an hour on the lunge. That does not do much to get the
horse focusing on the trainer. In fact, the horse would be learning
that she has no effective control over his paces at all and can go at
the speed he pleases. To accomplish something of value, the trainer
should be controlling the horse's pace, asking for transitions, etc.
while the horse is on the lunge.
I personally have never bothered to lunge my QH before riding, even
though in his early years he might take 20 minutes to half an hour of
riding before blowing off enough energy to be able to start really
focusing and let me get some quality training time in. If I was short
of time on a particular day, it sometimes helped to give him 5 or 10
minutes turnout =on his own= in the ring before riding to let him blow
off steam. Since I was in no way attempting to control him during
this turnout, he did not learn to ignore any signals from me. And he
would then be ready to learn as soon as I got on, instead of taking 20
minutes to get the edge off. And, of course, as he matured I began
expecting him to be able to listen right from the start of each
training session. It all depends on the individual horse and their
particular stage of training at the time.
(snip)
Richard and Sun Valley
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
rich...@docker.com
John T. Klausner
In <5ak21j$b...@goshen.williams.edu> Kris Anderson
<kand...@williams.edu> writes:
>snipped
> Kris, who supposes that we'd all get up and do something
constructive if
>the posts got bad enough , Anderson
>
>kand...@williams.edu
>Williamstown, MA
There's nothing but slop out there - I'm pretending I don't even _have_
horses today.
SueK
Phetsy Calderon
In article <32CDBD...@tricon.net>, "Terry L. Leonard"
<glo...@tricon.net> wrote:
> John T. Klausner wrote:
>
> >... Her
> > parents, not knowing better, are probably in awe of her ability to work
> > with this obviously poorly trained horse, and unwilling to insist on
> > lessons or training because it costs big bucks. And they've already
> > spent ???? how much on buying and feeding the stupid thing - haven't
> > they done enough?? Betcha' she thinks she doesn't need help either!
> > SueK
>
> I must say you hit the nail right on the head!!! I am a horsey child born
> into a family who could care less about horses! But as for the last
> sentence I'm not a complete know-it-all and realize I can always use
> help. Just unfortunately that's not what my parents are willing to give!
Kim, tell us a little bit about what your parents' objections to "help"
might be. You mentioned in a previous post that your dad was wary of going
to another trainer--give us some background.
Also--you may have noticed that you've gotten nipped at some regarding
your post, and I know I "clicked my teeth" at you a bit. I did that
because I was truly, truly upset at what could happen to you and your
horse without some expert (_really expert_) guidance. I would be willing
to give you some information to take to your parents to help get you that
guidance, and I'd bet my last 1.4Mb diskette that the rest of rec. eq
would _love_ to have the chance to weigh in with suggestions on finding
low cost/convenient/QUALIFIED instruction. So talk to us a little bit, and
let us have a chance to do that. Horse people are funny, y'know--we spend
so much time looking for a chance to say "Attaboy!" to our horses that we
get so we like to have a chance to pass out the praise.
Mind you, you will probably have to bite the bullet and have more than one
of us say "Well, this was a point where you should have knocked off for a
cup of tea, and it's your job to know that," or words to that effect. But
if you can tough that out (and you did walk a mile home in some pain. You
have to be a little tough) and understand that we need to say "This went
wrong, and it can cause this" so that we can say "Here's what to do next
time," you will get some very good (very expensive!, if we all came to
your barn for a "group instructor" lesson) instruction.
So tell us a little more about why you think you can't get a trainer, and
let us go to work on that problem.
Elaine Czarnecki
Terry L. Leonard wrote:
> You would have probably liked it better if I had come out parallized!
> Right????!!!
>
> KimWell, if you had, you wouldn't be around to post this BS which would make
me happier.
Elaine
John T. Klausner
OK kiddoe. You're on your own then. Start pulling these responses
apart and ask questions or even disagree about what people are saying -
you might even email one or two to find out if there's someone
physically near you that can help you find a situation that will help
you put things together. I think your post was so "in your face"
because you were "honest to God" scared by the whole incident. That
certainly shows _some_ sense! Self preservation is a wonderful thing!
The best way for you to ride is the way that is safe and rewarding for
you. The best way for that to happen is to make your horse well
trained and responsive - which happens to be the best way for your
horse as well! Do you by any chance happen to be a thrill seeker? a
person who kind of likes the scarey ones?? Not a bad trait, but self
preservation requires a little more skill training - how to stay out of
_real_ trouble, how to get out of it when you _haven't_ stayed out of
it, and how to stick it out when there isn't any other choice! Stick
around and post until you can hook up with another horse person
somewhere close to you - and learn how to tell which ones are _really_
good and which ones just _talk_ good! The thing I like best about
rec.eq is that you can talk horses with a lot of other horse crazy
people who are people you'd never likely meet because they're far away
and quietly (well, some of them) doing their own thing in some hole in
the wall place. You're just not alone. Don't disappear when school
starts again!
SueK
In <32CDBD...@tricon.net> "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net>
writes:
>
>John T. Klausner wrote:
>
>> Because God, for some reason, always seems to put "horse children"
in
>> the families of non-horsey people. Horsey people then have children
>> who can't stand the smell of horse poop. This is right up there
with
>> the law that as soon as you throw something out, you need it. Her
Chad & Nicole Grainger
Dear Kim,
your story explains a lot. If you can not find a way to get lessons
from a reputable trainer. BTW where are you located? Then I would
suggest that you build a solid round pen and start from scratch. You
need the enclosed space. A round pen will cost about $250 I know I just
built one. You can save that by baby sitting or washing cars. Anyway,
then you need to begin by teaching your horse the basics on the longe
line. Longeing should be a training exercise. Your horse needs to
respect you and to bew obedient. You need to establish gaits, and
transitions and most importantly whoa. All of my horses learn to move
away from the leg, whoa, turn on the forhand and turn on the haunches
before I ever sit on their backs. The round pen will then give you an
enclosed area to start with.
Once you progress to riding Glory again., I would suggest if he were in
my barn that he be turned out for at least 45 minutes prior to riding,
then groom and demand ( without being hurtful -) that he behave while
being groomed and tacked up. I would work him on the longe line for
15-25 minutes at the walk-trot and whoa. you can also very the rthym of
the walk and trot to keep his mind on you and then get on. this routine
works quite well on hot horses. It also establishes who is the boss in
the relationship.
Nicole
Terry L. Leonard
> Phetsy Calderon
Alright, a bit of background...where do I start?? Is when I got him ok?
This may be long so bare with me!!
It was Christmas of '90, I was 10 years old, and wanted a horse very
badly!! I had taken lessons for about a year at a, I have to say very
biassed, barn.(If you didn't own a $2,000 horse they couldn't care less
about you!)(that may be where I picked up bad habits!) Anyway, I had one
last present to open and in the box was a bridle and halter! I was very
happy! The next day I went to the farm and asked to see him. We didn't
have a barn or even a fence up yet. So, he had to stay on our neighbors
property with his QHs(4 of them used for rodeo). I had no saddle, no tack
of any kind except the bridle and halter. My neighbor helped me out a
little there by letting me borrow a saddle until I could save up enough
to buy my own. I rode Glory very little, as I was a scrawny little ten,
almost eleven, year old and I was also scared of riding outside of a
fenced-in area.
My family and I worked hard all through the winter months(me especially
because I wanted that horse more than anything).(you all can understand
that though, right?) Eventually we got the fence up and the frame of a
two stall barn. I saved enough to buy an english all-puropse saddle and
rode a little more frequently. It seemed that each time I rode him he got
a little more testy with me. I only chalked it up to adjusting to new
surroundings.
Once the barn was "done" Glory moved over as a permanent resident. Then
the colder months rolled around and we left him inside more and more. I
would take him out every once and a while and he would buck a little, but
I thought nothing of it because I could hang on. Finally I had a few
friends and cousins over to ride.(some had but most had never ridden
before) Because he was the only horse I had they had no choice. One of my
friends took him out of the pasture and cantered him up a hill.(he had
ridden before) At the first kick Glory broke into a canter and then
suddenly took a turn to the left. What is there to say except that Glory
made the turn and my friend didn't taking a stirrup with him! Then a
cousin of mine was riding him around bareback, just at a walk. She was
doing fine and came to a stop at the fence where everyone else was.
Glory, standing still, threw up his heels and she fell off the side. I
did have a friend over that did stay on him though! She is a very good
rider and had been taking lessons for over 4 years! Glory bucked and
reared with her and I was amazed she stayed on!
He kept getting wilder and wilder with me and dad finally decided to
board him at a barn with a trainer/friend of his. I went every Thursday
after school. I had to ride in a small hallway with a stallion at one
end. Every time I would go to that end of the hall the stallion would
reach his nose under or kick the door! It scared Glory half to death!!
Rusty, the trainer actually influenced a few bad habits in both me and
Glory. He taught both of us that to rack I had to saw the bit. I really
wished I had remembered one of those times that all you had to do to get
a rack out of him was just tell him to rack! Glory also picked up
cribbing and that's where I learned to tie his tongue down. Finally, that
part of our lives was over when dad decided that was quite enough!
In the meanwhile dad bought another horse. This is where BJ comes in. BJ
is a, I guess you would have to say horse at 14.5hh. And the gentlest
little guy anyone would ever meet! At first I was afraid to get on him
because he was huge. The most part of his body was muscle, but covered by
a layer of fat made him look even bigger!
We finally brought Glory home to meet his new roomy. At first they got
along fine with BJ being the boss. Then I guess Glory realized where he
was and decided to take control. They weren't mean to each other, just
bossy. I would take one of them out and the other would go crazy!
Glory was his usual self when I would ride him, always wanting to take
control and throw me. Then I started him jumping and he loved it soooo
much! It was amazing I could take him out and do a few little 3 feet
jumps and he would behave beautifully! Then I decided to take him a
little higher 4 ft. The higher I went the more he liked it! I got dad to
build me a good set of jumps up to 5 ft. and I took over a small area in
a circle away from the barn. He would/could go around that circle forever
or so it seemed. Every time anticipating that jump.
Over the last summer I switched him to western pleasure/trail riding
because a friend of mine would ride with me almost every time I rode. I
don't know what started it, but he began fighting me again and
continually wanting to run full out. I tried holding him back, but he
just took the bit and took off! I wanted to stop him and this is when I
started lunging him. I would "breeze" him for a while before riding and
it sort of worked.(he would still fight, but not run full out) This
pretty much brings us back to my story. That was the first time I have
ever fallen off him! I thought if I got him back into jumping maybe he
would calm down a bit.
Sorry it was so long! But you have to remember it covered a span of 6
years and is coming from a horsey person. I would really love any _good_
advice you all will offer. And please, no name calling, slandering, or
degrading comments! If you handle this nicely I will listen and hopefully
you can teach this novice some new tricks!
Thanks to everyone but the troll hunters!
Kim
Kris Carroll
On 01/03/97, Phetsy Calderon wrote:
>So tell us a little more about why you think you can't get a trainer, and
>let us go to work on that problem.
I believe I can shed some light here. In email, right after Miss Kim ordered
me to "go straight to Hell" she wrote she doesn't "have a million dollar
horse or a cool mill to throw away on lessons!!"
A familiar excuse. But how much did the hospital visit cost? How much does a
funeral cost? What's the going rate for a ruined horse? Seems to me a trainer
is cheaper by far. That or sell the kid.
Kris C.
Kathie Dunn
O.K. everyone, so we've all been following Miss Kim and her horse
adventures ... but has anyone else noticed?
Yes, she got righteous in her first reply to some rather harsh (albeit
true) criticism.
BUT, she learned! Her responses since then have been intelligent and
definitely show not only someone who is willing to listen and learn,
but also someone who has some humility. Be the problem with Kim or her
horse, here's an
*attagirl, Kim* way to learn!
Kathie
Kris Carroll
Try to find US Pony Club (us...@mis.net) manual to learn some horse basics
(14.5 hands doesn't exist - that would be 15.1).
Contact the Tennessee 4-H council. Robertson County 4-H in Springfield, is on
line Extension Office at 615-384-7936 - E-mail 216Rob...@cru.gw.utk.edu
Try Tennessee 4-H Alumni Association, Inc. P. O. Box 190155 Nashville, TN
37219-0155
It's most critical to find an experienced rider who can work side by side
with you. You can't make this stuff up as you go along, no matter how much
you love your horse. You can only learn so much over the internet - it's one
thing for someone to suggest a round pen and another thing to actually make
use of one properly to bring back an abused horse.
Kris C.
Jeanne Hinds
Richard Botterill wrote:
Certainly, rec.eq is
> not noted for "suffering fools gladly", for want of a better way to
> put it, but the overall intent is to educate in order to enhance the
> safety and well-being of horse and rider.
Ahh but what type of "fool" are we talking about? Naive fools? Well
meaning but outdated training techniques fools? BLithering idiot fools
that listen but never hear?
For example, in my twenty years of riding friends' horses I never saw a
case of colic. They just never colicked (lucky owners!) Now, at a
boarding barn I was once at, I happened to notice one of the horses
sweating and staring at her side (I was the only person at the barn).
Since she was pregnant and very near her due date, I assumed she was in
labor and even checked the foaling book in the office to verify the
symptoms. I called the owner but could not reach her. I decided to
continue watching and very shortly said mare begins rolling all over the
stall nearly casting herself and is drenched in sweat. *That's* when I
realized this was a probable case of colic and called the vet. My delay
in calling the vet could have caused the death of the horse. So, was I
a "fool not to be suffered gladly" or merely a well-meaning person
operating within the limited confines of their experiences and
knowledge?
I am certainly not afraid to admit on this public forum that I don't
know everything there is to now about horses nor do I pretend to be the
paragon of wisdom. I don't post giving advice simply because my frame
of reference is so small and there is little to give. The bottom line is
that everyone here is ignorant about something. There are some quality
posters to this newsgroup - you, Jane Kilberg, Deborah Stevenson, Laura
Behning, to name several - but there are others that just clog my kill
file.
And did it ever occur to anyone that this newsgroup gets loads of trolls
because rec.equestrian posters give them such great reactions?
Newsgroups that have a group dynamic of collectively ignoring troll bait
tend to have fewer trolls simply because it isn't fertile ground for
fun. But rec. equestrianers sure do lay out the red carpet and fairly
shout out to the Internet, "Come and get us! You can get all kinds of
reactions out fo us!"
People seem to understand or believe in the concept that one blames the
rider not the horse for misbehavior. Rather than pointing the finger at
the evil trolls, I suggest rec.equestrians stop fueling the troll gravy
train by ignoring them totally when they appear. Silence is a deadly
sort of peer pressure.
Jeanne Hinds
Kris Anderson wrote:
> So she's a teenager? There are a lot of men, women and children who
> think they know everything. Should that excuse them from having to take
> flak when they're saying and doing things that someone else thinks is
> dumb?
The original "flak" this child got was to be accused of being a troll.
>
> >It was obvious from
> >her post that some of things she did were based on recommendations of
> >other adults (the tongue tying down). In all fairness, she was
> >well-meaning so far as her experience would permit her to be. I grew up
> >riding horses in what I now consider to be a rather crude process of
> >communication. I treated my horses well and was well meaning but only
> >within the limits of my understanding. Would that naivety disqualify me
> >back then for horseownership or make me a target for every "troll"
> >accusation?
>
> No one has the power to disqualify the ignorant and/or abusive from
> horse ownership, but yes, I do think that when you air your experiences
> and ideas on a public forum such as rec.eq you're asking for, and you're
> going to get, honest reactions to what you post. IMO teenagers are
> perfectly capable of adapting to, and learning from, direct comments
> without interpreting them as personal assaults, as is anyone is who wants
> to benefit from the free goodies on usenet.
I am a firm believer in the freedom of the internet and to be prepared
to take any and all *advice* which comes my way. I also freely
excercise to my right to air my opinions about bitchy, condescending,
pompous ass posts. Isn't free speech grand?
The bottom line is in how things are communicated. If I had an
instructor who treated me like a blithering idiot or fool for honest
mistakes, who called me names or made spurious accusations, I would fire
them in a heartbeat. A good instructor who informs, wins you over with
persuasion, suggests a better way is a good thing.
> >As I have said before, some people (certainly not all) post criticisms
> >as if they never, ever made a mistake in their lives. Well, good for
> >them! May we all be compelled to genuflect with awe to kiss the hem of
> >their poop encrusted chaps.
>
> Actually we're not even required to react, much less kiss anything. In
> fact, the poster doesn't even know if anyone read it, so we can just sit
> here a laugh our asses off if we'd like, scratch our heads or anywhere
> else that itches, flip 'em the bird, pop a aneurism getting into a
> flutter--or read it while we're dusting the monitor and forget what we
> read before we even get the next post opened up.
Hmm, too bad this philosophy is not applied to trolls.
C.M.Newell
Is there a market for them? Let me know--my sister may be
interested.
--CMNewell
>
>Kris C.
Jeanne Hinds
Kris Carroll wrote:
>
> On 01/03/97, Phetsy Calderon wrote:
> >So tell us a little more about why you think you can't get a trainer, and
> >let us go to work on that problem.
>
> I believe I can shed some light here. In email, right after Miss Kim ordered
> me to "go straight to Hell" she wrote she doesn't "have a million dollar
> horse or a cool mill to throw away on lessons!!"
>
> A familiar excuse. But how much did the hospital visit cost? How much does a
> funeral cost? What's the going rate for a ruined horse? Seems to me a trainer
> is cheaper by far. That or sell the kid.
>
Oh, so it was you who posted the other troll accusation. I didn;t even
look at the attributions.
Geez, CMNewell had the decency to admit she jumped the gun with her
troll assessment so what's holding you up?
Jeanne Hinds
Kris Carroll wrote:
>
> On 01/02/97, Jeanne Hinds wrote:
>
> I vowed to stay out of this one.... but if this child (sic) had posted this
> tale in jriders she would have been eaten alive. You'd be amazed at the
> skills of some of these kids given half a brain. You'd also be shocked no
> doubt to learn that some kids are real brats.
Dang! I knew there was a reason why I ended my daughter's enrollment to
Junior Riders! You just reminded me! I like my children exposed to
kind, helpful people who assume the best rather than the worst about
them and who offer contructive criticisms bathed in concern and an
earnest desire to help.
>
> > It was obvious from
> >her post that some of things she did were based on recommendations of
> >other adults (the tongue tying down).
>
> So she was brain washed? I say brain dead. Most kids can recognize abuse when
> they see it. This one can't see beyond the end of her nose. And neither, it
> seems, can you.
Oh dear! Such constructive comments from a leader of youth riders!
What a shining example of character and personality! What pearls of
wisdom which issue forth from thine mouth!
>
> The rest of your post clearly shows your real concern - your feelings. You
> and this 16yo claim the horse is the source of the problem. People who are
> pros are telling it's not and you're indignant. My my.
>
My, my. You can instantly recognize bratty children yet you can't
recognize an opportunistic bratty horse. And I'm indignant because you
once again shot off your mouth prematurally, made a rash negative
judgement ("It's a troll!") and damn near started a stupid feeding
frenzy against a teenager who obviously needs help. Shame on you. Will
you retract your troll accusation or will we have to drag it out of you
like the time you falsely accused the wrong jumpers association of
stealing your copyrighted web art?
D. Melvina Harris
Jeanne Hinds wrote:
<snip>
> And did it ever occur to anyone that this newsgroup gets loads of trolls
> because rec.equestrian posters give them such great reactions?
> Newsgroups that have a group dynamic of collectively ignoring troll bait
> tend to have fewer trolls simply because it isn't fertile ground for
> fun. But rec. equestrianers sure do lay out the red carpet and fairly
> shout out to the Internet, "Come and get us! You can get all kinds of
> reactions out fo us!"
>
> People seem to understand or believe in the concept that one blames the
> rider not the horse for misbehavior. Rather than pointing the finger at
> the evil trolls, I suggest rec.equestrians stop fueling the troll gravy
> train by ignoring them totally when they appear. Silence is a deadly
> sort of peer pressure.
Maybe so, but not as much fun as hunting them down!
Melvina & Nothin chomping at his cyber bit. :)
Steve Hazelett
Lunging techniques never cease to amaze me. I lunge my horse, but
with a little different idea.
In our area, we were hit with a pretty hard snow storm, followed by
freezing ice and lose of power. Under these conditions, many of the
horses didn't get turned out.
When the owners arrived to work their horses, the attitude was that
they have been cooped up for too long, and to wildly chase them around
on the lunge line to get them calmed down.
I usually take the attitute of calmness. When I arrive at the
barn, I don't make a big deal that my horse (TB) will be a nut. I
approach everything as if is just another day. By being calm, and not
making abrupt movements he takes on my attitude.
As an example, our shavings shed colapsed, so the savings were
moved to the arena and placed on plastic tarps. While watching some
of the owners work their horses, many of them were frightened by the
shavings and the tarps and the owners just pushed them on, trying to
wear down their excitement.
As the owners left I decided to bring my horse up (after three days
of being in his stall) and see what he would be like, with that calm
nature that I try to keep.
After turning my horse loose in the arena, I watch this horse run
up the shavings pile, think of rolling in them, then run over onto the
plastic tarps. While he was dancing on the tarps, he decided to pick
one of them up with his teeth and play with it. Needless to say I let
him have his fun, and remained calm. We try and make a game out of
spooky situations and never make a big deal out of it. Using this
relaxed attitude has really helped me and my horse over some pretty
scary situations.
It would be nice to see folks approach strange situations calmly.
I learned this tecnique for a school teacher that had one of the most
laid back TB's I'd ever seen, simply because she was always calm
around her horse. ... Steve
On Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:58:51 GMT, CA...@slacvm.slac.Stanford.EDU wrote:
> I would like to make a comment on lunging. I have always lunged my
>mare before riding her - to get the excess energy out of her. Many times she
>would dig out at a dead run, and stopping her took a lot of yanking and jerking
> on the lunge line. It seems to me that she was obviously out of control and
>her frenzied running only fed itself and resulted in more running. It was like
> her mind just clicked off and she no longer listened to anything. So, I have
>thought a lot about this and this summer tried a different tact.
> When I lunge her now I begin in a very small circle, just walking. Then
> I do a lot of transitions walk-trot-walk-trot, small circle, very small and
>controlled. The idea is not to wear her down, but to get her to listen to me.
> I gradually let the lunge line out to increase the size of the circle. Then,
>eventually I ask her to canter. I continue to ask for transitions, and keep
>everything slow. If she were to start to speed up I would decrease size of
>circle and go back to walk-trot-walk-trot.
> This has worked amazingly well. It turns out, I really did not need to
>lunge her to exhaustion, just keep her focused on me and thinking. Our lunge
>time length has actually decreased, and I can mount up and head out for a trail
> ride in much less time than when I allowed her to fly around on the lunge line
> in a dead run. Saves her legs too.
> Cheryl
--/
//\ ___/ /\( ... Steve
))( )__ )__ haze...@aa.net
))// | /
|\ |
John T. Klausner
I wonder if you have a problem with a badly fitting saddle...???
SueK
In <32CDFB...@tricon.net> "Terry L. Leonard" <glo...@tricon.net>
writes:
>
>> Phetsy Calderon
>
> Alright, a bit of background...where do I start?? Is when I got him
ok?
>This may be long so bare with me!!
Snipped
I saved enough to buy an english all-puropse saddle and
>rode a little more frequently. It seemed that each time I rode him he
got
>a little more testy with me. I only chalked it up to adjusting to new
>surroundings.
snipped
> Kim
Kris Carroll
On 01/03/97, Jeanne Hinds wrote:
>you retract your troll accusation or will we have to drag it out of you
>like the time you falsely accused the wrong jumpers association of
>stealing your copyrighted web art?
Forget your meds again? This was my first post on this matter and troll
accusations didn't come from me. As for you dragging anything anywhere, now
or in the past, dream on. My sympathy to your horses and your family. You've
got a problem lady, and it ain't me.
Kris C.
John T. Klausner
In <5aknk1$4...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> k_d...@ix.netcom.com(Kathie
Also occasionally _very_ assertive to say the least. Definitely an
Alpha in the making - gotta get her started right or there'll be
trouble!
SueK
C.M.Newell
Look---I'm the one who *asked* if it was a troll, becaiuse, as
I said, I couldn't believe someone could honestly make so many serious
errors at one fell swoop. And the part about offering oneself up for
crucifixion was a question relative to what I anticipated popular
reaction might well be to such a tale of blunders.
Now. Clearly, I was wrong in my assesment that no one could
*really* do that and be naive enough to post it, but how that
translates into being Kris's fault is another thing beyond my feeble
powers of comprehension. Methinks you have another axe to grind
entirely.
--Charlotte
LMinder324
Could someone brief me on this "troll" business? I don't read this site
everyday so must have missed something. I agree that I have learned quite
a lot from some of you folks(thank you so much), please keep those "pearls
of wisdom" coming.
Joel B Levin
In <32CDB4...@mindspring.com>,
Jeanne Hinds <jmh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
|And did it ever occur to anyone that this newsgroup gets loads of trolls
|because rec.equestrian posters give them such great reactions?
|Newsgroups that have a group dynamic of collectively ignoring troll bait
|tend to have fewer trolls simply because it isn't fertile ground for
|fun. But rec. equestrianers sure do lay out the red carpet and fairly
|shout out to the Internet, "Come and get us! You can get all kinds of
|reactions out fo us!"
Whether one disagrees with Jeanne or not, this much is true. When you see a
real troll, better to sit on your hands. This even includes things like
Premarin diatribes.
The only reason a real troller trolls is to get a response. The ONLY
reason.
|People seem to understand or believe in the concept that one blames the
|rider not the horse for misbehavior. Rather than pointing the finger at
|the evil trolls, I suggest rec.equestrians stop fueling the troll gravy
|train by ignoring them totally when they appear. Silence is a deadly
|sort of peer pressure.
It's fun and almost irresistable to answer certain kinds of postings, so I
am advocating perhaps the use of more will power than a lot of us have.
Nevertheless, silence is the best response here. (There is the question of
whether misinformation should be allowed to stand, especially dangerous
misinformation. This is a difficult problem, as it's easy go down the
slippery slope we've seen here by responding. Sometimes ONE response,
followups directed to poster (as in this one) and resolution to sit on one's
hands or deal via e-mail after that, would be OK.)
/JBL
--
Nets: le...@bbn.com | Public keys available at
or j...@levin.mv.com | http://www.mv.com/ipusers/levin/pgpkeys.html
* If you send me abusive or threatening e-mail, I will probably post it. *
Joel B Levin
In <32ce018a...@news.ultranet.com>,
res...@deyr.ultranet.com (C.M.Newell) wrote:
|On 4 Jan 1997 02:16:20 GMT, kcar...@halcyon.com (Kris Carroll) wrote:
|>funeral cost? What's the going rate for a ruined horse? Seems to me a trainer
|>is cheaper by far. That or sell the kid.
|
|
|interested.
A kid, or a ruined horse? Maybe I could help your sister :-)
/J
--
Nets: le...@bbn.com | "There were sweetheart roses on Yancey Wilmerding's
or j...@levin.mv.com| bureau that morning. Wide-eyed and distraught, she
POTS: (617)873-3463 | stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor."
ARS: KD1ON | -- S. J. Perelman
Deborah Stevenson
In <19970104173...@ladder01.news.aol.com> lmind...@aol.com
(LMinder324) writes:
In technical parlance, a troll is a post deliberately saying something
outrageous in order to get a group all lathered up; the trollers (or
trolls for short) then presumably congratulate themselves on how clever
they are to make people fall for something so stupid. There have been
organized troll invasions of other newsgroups; such has not, to my
knowledge, happened here.
I actually don't think much real trolling occurs in rec.eq. The "horses
suck" poster looked more like a passerby who found a terminal left up
when it shouldn't have been (I doubt s/he stuck around to read
responses, so the social engineering aspect of trolling wouldn't really
have come into play). The rubber-boots guy was somewhat off-topic but
apparently sincere, since he posted his request to more appropriate groups
as well. (Human sexuality posts are often labeled trolls when they're merely
misplaced, IMHO.) Apparently a group that posted earlier this year on
Premarin is now saying it was trolling; unless they're now recanting their
posted opposition to Premarin farms and horse slaughter, I find it hard
to see how they could be trolling by stating their honest position.
We used to have a genuine once-a-year troll from somebody who posted
about riding greased, naked, and bareback at a wedding shower. I
developed a certain affection for it :-), but there's no question that
people's responding seriously to it took up time and space better spent
on other pursuits.
Good trollers pride themselves on not being obvious, and it can be hard
to tell genuine posts from good trolls. The textbook response to obvious
trolls is to ignore 'em, since what they crave is response, but it can be
hard to resist having your own fun with them, if only to demonstrate that
you weren't fooled.
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Trip-trapping over the bridge in Champaign, IL, USA
C.M.Newell
On 4 Jan 1997 19:04:27 GMT, stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Deborah
Stevenson) wrote:
>We used to have a genuine once-a-year troll from somebody who posted
>about riding greased, naked, and bareback at a wedding shower. I
>developed a certain affection for it :-), but there's no question that
>people's responding seriously to it took up time and space better spent
>on other pursuits.
>
I was wondering whatever happened to him....
Ob horsey: just got the first booking of the year for my stallion.
--CMNewell
Joel B Levin
In <32ceb399...@news.ultranet.com>,
res...@deyr.ultranet.com (C.M.Newell) wrote:
|On 4 Jan 1997 19:04:27 GMT, stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Deborah
|Stevenson) wrote:
|>We used to have a genuine once-a-year troll from somebody who posted
|>about riding greased, naked, and bareback at a wedding shower. I
|>developed a certain affection for it :-), but there's no question that
|>people's responding seriously to it took up time and space better spent
|>on other pursuits.
|>
| I was wondering whatever happened to him....
Maybe he finally slipped off and got trampled by the back feet.
|Ob horsey: just got the first booking of the year for my stallion.
I wanted to say congratulations, but the rec.eq bookkeeping department says
using the same ObHorsey for two posts is against the rules.
/J
--
Nets: le...@bbn.com | "GO TO JAIL. Go directly to jail. Do not pass
or j...@levin.mv.com| Go. Do not collect $200."
POTS: (617)873-3463 |
ARS: KD1ON | -- Parker Brothers
Jackson
Karen wrote:
>
> I want to know where the
> >parents are in all this. Why are THEY letting a 16 year old poor
> >rider go out alone on a poorly trained horse?>
Dobgirl answered:
> Because God, for some reason, always seems to put "horse children" in
> the families of non-horsey people. Horsey people then have children
> who can't stand the smell of horse poop.
Wow, isn't <that> the truth. My sisters and I constantly marvel at how
we survived our childhood, riding unsupervised and without benefit of
helmets. I mean, there were only five kids in the family—you'd think the
parents were practicing a weird form of "herd culling"...;-}
Then, of course, when my own came along, he can't stand the sight of
horses. Got him "Into The West" on video for Christmas and he sneered
and jibed all the way through it. Oh well, looks like my non-horsey
brother is raising a little equine fanatic. Maybe we'll swap some day...
Bonnie in AZ
Jackson
Harriet Roberts wrote:
> Why keep the horse cooped up in the barn because of rain? A little rain (even a
> lot of rain) is not going to hurt a horse as long as the pasture isn't along a
> creek that is going to flood.
>
> --
> Harriet Roberts
> hrob...@acura.mitre.org
Here, here! Why do we constantly evaluate their lives in terms of our
comfort, not theirs?
Bonnie in AZ
Dobgirl
>So tell us a little more about why you think you can't get a trainer,
and
> >let us go to work on that problem.
>
> I believe I can shed some light here. In email, right after Miss Kim
ordered
> me to "go straight to Hell" she wrote she doesn't "have a million dollar
> horse or a cool mill to throw away on lessons!!"
>
does a
> funeral cost? What's the going rate for a ruined horse? Seems to me a
trainer
> is cheaper by far. That or sell the kid.
You didn't read the posts well either... her father had already tried a
trainer that made things worse for her, instead of better. Why should he
feel like throwing good money after bad, since these are not people who
have been around horses enough to realize how many different methods of
training are available? The girl just wanted some damn help, get off her
back.
Dobgirl
>My, my. You can instantly recognize bratty children yet you can't
>recognize an opportunistic bratty horse. And I'm indignant because you
>once again shot off your mouth prematurally, made a rash negative
>judgement ("It's a troll!") and damn near started a stupid feeding
>frenzy against a teenager who obviously needs help. Shame on you. Will
>like the time you falsely accused the wrong jumpers association of
>stealing your copyrighted web art?
Thank you! One person out there who recognizes that horses sometimes do
things NOT because they are afraid or abused, BUT because some of them are
obnoxious. :-) But we love them anyway.
Dobgirl
your story explains a lot. If you can not find a way to get lessons
from a reputable trainer. BTW where are you located? Then I would
suggest that you build a solid round pen and start from scratch. ....
This is good sound advice. I would do the same.
Dobgirl
Dobgirl answered:
> Because God, for some reason, always seems to put "horse children" in
> the families of non-horsey people. Horsey people then have children
> who can't stand the smell of horse poop.
Actually, sorry, I didn't write that......
Dr Corinne B Leek
kcar...@halcyon.com (Kris Carroll) wrote:
>On 01/02/97, Sullys Maze wrote:
>> I want to know where the
>>parents are in all this. Why are THEY letting a 16 year old poor
>>rider go out alone on a poorly trained horse?>
>
>Sure blame the victims. They're probably hiding in the basement, glad it's
>out of the house.
Princess Credit Card still home?
<WEG>
Corinne, enjoying a *very* quiet Holiday Season, <G> ...
Troika, miffed at not having had 50lbs carrots dumped in her stall.
Spy, thinking this white stuff is fun...
Toby, who hates doing his P&P in the snow, but enjoys bounding
around at "snowballs"...
--
*** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
*** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca in Nova Scotia!!
*** No Longer in Goose Bay, Labrador!
made...@vermontel.com
There have been a ton of posts on this, but one of the best, IMO
was Adrienne Regard's of yesterday. She suggested constructive
advice. So here's mine.
Kim,
Take this horse and turn him out for the winter. That you have
survived 6 years with no help is a miracle. Don't push it. If
your parents are not interested in your riding, maybe you can
show them you are serious by getting a part time job, either in
a barn, working for lesssons, or flipping burgers. Accumulate
enough cash to get some proper, worthwhile instruction. Do the
research to find a good instructor. Get some books out of the library
and start studying.
If you are serious about riding and horses, you cannot expect to get
to be any good without a lot of work and sacrifice on your part. So
get started. There's good advice available here on the net, but your
time would be better spent reading the work of professionals one at
a time, or earning the money so you can get real lessons.
If this seems to be too much trouble, sell the horse and go to the
mall. But don't use bad language to those who are trying to help.
madeline
Patti Newell
I was wondering if somone could post the Book List, Thanks!
Catey
John T. Klausner
Indeed! The "sue" mentality is a real problem in California!!!
SueK
In <5amach$h...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> bis...@ix.netcom.com(Richard
Bishop) writes:
>
>In <5alvi9$5...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> som...@ix.netcom.com(John T.
>Klausner ) writes:
>>
>>I wonder if you have a problem with a badly fitting saddle...???
>>SueK
>>
>
>
>Wow, there must be some kind of special 'Sue' mental telepathy. I
just
>posted saying this very same thing!
>
>Sue B.
Jim & Laura Behning
dob...@aol.com (Dobgirl) wrote:
>Thank you! One person out there who recognizes that horses sometimes do
>things NOT because they are afraid or abused, BUT because some of them are
>obnoxious. :-) But we love them anyway.
But they *get* "obnoxious" because some human (and it might well not
be the current owner) has been in error in handling/riding them
incorrectly one too many times- or the horse is in actual physical
pain, in which case bad behavior is simply an attempt to rid itself of
the pain (or that which the animal feels is causing the pain- the
rider). I second Sue- check the saddle fit- and also second the
multitude of other posters who have stated that getting a trainer
involved is a good idea. If funds are a problem, most trainers are
always willing to let folks work off their lessons.
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~morgans/Laura.htm
http://www.astroarch.com/modelhorse/resin/Behning.html
Ye Olde Milde and Well-Mannered Muleskinner
stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Deborah Stevenson) wrote:
[ ... ]
>about riding greased, naked, and bareback at a wedding shower. I
>developed a certain affection for it :-), but there's no question that
>people's responding seriously to it took up time and space better spent
>on other pursuits.
You probably don't get invited to as many by now. Those problems are
often self-limiting.
It remains a test of true horsemanship, however.
(PS Use a fixed-pitch font to fully appreciate this:)
Infinite Love, Your QBU and the horse she rode in on
o0o
W
**
~*****~
~!* @<@ *!~
* { ~ } * /| |\
o0o \ / ~( (V/ |
| \_ ||_/ ~/^ _ ? \_
E ( \o0o/ ) ~/ ( @ @)
| ( \Y/ )) ~/ ( L\ \|]
\ / \ / | | \ _ \| \\
| V | 3 | | \_ (&|D)
/~ ~\ _/ | | \(_Y/
~ V /~ | |\ ~~
Ye Olde Mean Vile and Evil Muleskinner
dob...@aol.com (Dobgirl) blathered:
> ... One person out there who recognizes that horses sometimes do
>things NOT because they are afraid or abused, BUT because some of them are
>obnoxious.
Sorry, but horses are horses, and mistreatment thereof remains human error.
No one can improve by blaming livestock instead of taking responsibility.
_____________________________________________________________________________
|Respectfully, Sheila ~~~Word Warrior~~~ gr...@pipeline.com|
|Obligatory tribute to the founding fathers of the United States of America:|
| This is not to be read by anyone under 18 years of age, who should read up|
| on history and the First Amendment to the Constitution, as an alternative.|
| *Animals, including humans, fart, piss, shit, masturbate, fuck and abort.*|
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Deborah Stevenson
In <5an12n$h...@dropit.pgh.net> gr...@pipeline.com (Ye Olde Milde and
Well-Mannered Muleskinner) writes:
>stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Deborah Stevenson) wrote:
>[ ... ]
>>about riding greased, naked, and bareback at a wedding shower. I
>>developed a certain affection for it :-), but there's no question that
>>people's responding seriously to it took up time and space better spent
>>on other pursuits.
>You probably don't get invited to as many by now. Those problems are
>often self-limiting.
*sob*. It's bad enough that I'm unpopular; now people are blabbing the
fact across the whole 'net.
>It remains a test of true horsemanship, however.
I'm working my way up, but I'm still at the lower levels. Current level
requires riding sticky, braless, and without stirrups through an afternoon
tea.
>(PS Use a fixed-pitch font to fully appreciate this:)
(snip of immortal artwork)
Is this an invitation to kiss your fat hairy ascii :-)?
Deborah Stevenson (stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Keyed up in Champaign, IL, USA
Eric Garber
Hello Terry. From my experience, I can offer the following advice:
*** With regard to using an English saddle, it is always best to try out
new equipment in a confined area with the assistance of a trainer.
*** As you probably know, Western and English riding utilize different
reining techniques and bits. If you used a new bit, you should have made
sure that it was appropriate for your horse's mouth. If your bit is too
severe, your horse may bolt to avoid being "caught" in the mouth or is
irritated by the bit. If the bit is too soft, it may not be enough to
control your horse.
*** I noticed you said you kept a very tight rein on him to keep him from
breaking. Many times, when you hold the reins too tight your horse will
sense fear and will try to run (fight or flight) to avoid danger. If
that's not the case, your horse may bolt to avoid the pain in his mouth; in
a sense, he's telling you to "let go of my mouth." I suggest that any time
you ride, you should WALK with a loose rein to help calm the horse.
*** Horses find it easier to go fast up steep hills. Pulling on his mouth
on the way up the hill creates a power struggle between you and the horse.
Until you feel confident controlling your horse, I would avoid that hill or
allow him to go at his own pace up the hill. I think tightening his bridle
irriated your horse's mouth; the bridle should only cause two wrinkles at
the sides of the mouth.
*** It's dangerous to jump without a trainer. Do not lean forward for the
mane when you lose your stirrups. Doing so puts you in an unbalanced
position. SIT UP, PUT YOUR HEELS DOWN and if your stirrups are at the right
length, they should slip back on your feet.
Sit up when your horse bolts. DO NOT put your hands on the neck. Give the
reins a steady pull. When your horse slows down, release his mouth to
reward him for responding to your command.
I'm no trainer myself, but I've been through what you've described, and
strongly recommend lessons with a good instructor for help.
Richard Botterill
On Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:39:15 +0000, Jeanne Hinds
<jmh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Richard Botterill wrote:
>
> Certainly, rec.eq is
>> not noted for "suffering fools gladly", for want of a better way to
>> put it, but the overall intent is to educate in order to enhance the
>> safety and well-being of horse and rider.
>Ahh but what type of "fool" are we talking about?
>Naive fools?
Only if they are unwilling to ask questions or are unwilling to become
educated.
>Well meaning but outdated training techniques fools?
We on rec.eq would be likely to point out that there =is= more modern
thinking available, but at least some of us also realize that there
are often many ways to achieve the desired goals, and it is best to
suit the particular method to the horse in question.
> BLithering idiot fools that listen but never hear?
Yes, this is one of the types in question. Another type is the kind
that asks for advice, then refuses to take it because they think they
know better (even though their way obviously wasn't working, or else
they wouldn't have solicited advice in the first place). There are
other similar types, but I think the idea is evident.
>For example, in my twenty years of riding friends' horses I never saw a
>case of colic. They just never colicked (lucky owners!) Now, at a
>boarding barn I was once at, I happened to notice one of the horses
>sweating and staring at her side (I was the only person at the barn).
>Since she was pregnant and very near her due date, I assumed she was in
>labor and even checked the foaling book in the office to verify the
>symptoms. I called the owner but could not reach her. I decided to
>continue watching and very shortly said mare begins rolling all over the
>stall nearly casting herself and is drenched in sweat. *That's* when I
>realized this was a probable case of colic and called the vet. My delay
>in calling the vet could have caused the death of the horse.
Fairly unlikely, as the majority of colics are not life-threatening,
and you yourself said that =very shortly= after trying to reach the
owner you realized the horse was colicing.
>So, was I a "fool not to be suffered gladly"
Certainly not. You observed another person's horse in the very early
stages of a colic and acted appropriately. It isn't always easy to
tell at first that a horse is colicing. A couple of years after I had
bought my first horse he didn't just seem to be himself one night. I
mentioned that I thought he was starting to colic to the boarding barn
owner (who had sold me the horse, and who had =many years= of
experience with horses), but he didn't think so. I left him in the
turnout pen and watched and within 15 minutes it was obvious that he
=was= starting a mild colic. The only reason I saw it and the barn
owner didn't at first was the fact that by then I knew what was normal
for =my= horse better than a more horsey-experienced person who had
less regular contact with the horse.
>or merely a well-meaning person operating within the limited
>confines of their experiences and knowledge?
This is it, exactly.
>I am certainly not afraid to admit on this public forum that I don't
>know everything there is to now about horses nor do I pretend to be the
>paragon of wisdom.
The beauty of working with horses is that (if we're willing) we can
continue to learn for the rest of our lives.
>I don't post giving advice simply because my frame
>of reference is so small and there is little to give.
All of us have our areas of expertise and areas where we may know very
little. My trainer has the horsey knowledge to be able to have taken
students (not me, I'm not =that= good) to Spruce Meadows and they've
won jumper classes out there. However, when it comes to cars or
electronics I can be a useful source of info to him.
>The bottom line is that everyone here is ignorant about something.
That's where we hope that others on this NG will have the knowledge
and will be willing to share it, if we ask.
(snip)
Richard and Sun Valley
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
rich...@docker.com
tobler
Kris Carroll wrote:
>
> Try to find US Pony Club (us...@mis.net) manual to learn some horse basics
> (14.5 hands doesn't exist - that would be 15.1).
>
This might also be interpreted as 14.2, assuming the .5 means one half
hand. I've found this usually to be the case when discussing the error
with the person who made it.
Wendy
Eric Garber
Terry,
My advice comes from my very limited experience as a hunter/jumper rider.
However, I have the use of only one arm as a result of a childhood illness,
so I have to be extra aware of what I'm doing on the horse. When I first
bought my thoroughbred, he would occassionally bolt. I was somewhat
inexperienced and was at a physical disadvantage. I was fortunate to have
two good instructors working with me. My horse sensed when I was tense or
nervous. He seemed to interpret this as danger and wanted to flee the
situation. When I was worried that he would bolt (especially in open
fields or on the trails), I would keep a tight rein on him which would
actually make him more jittery. I have learned to begin our rides in an
enclosed area, with a loose rein to help him relax (at the walk). I always
give him a good work session before leaving the ring for trail rides or
work on the track. My instructors told me that I was getting "in his
mouth" too much, so he would buck or bolt to get away from the bit. We
went to a more severe bit (a kimberwicke) to help me feel more secure
(power brakes) but I had to be EXTRA gentle on his mouth. He did much
better with the new bit as long as I "stayed out of his mouth". As I
developed more confidence, better skills and more control we lessened the
severity of the bit.
It sounds like you might be his mouth too much, fighting with him for
control. When you lose your stirrups, the worst thing you can do is lean
foward as it sounds like you did when you grabbed the pommel and reached
for mane. /leaning foward puts you and your horse off balance and sets the
stage for you and/or your horse to fall. Next time, sit up with your
shoulders back and keep your heels down. If you have the correct leg
position and stirrup leather length, the stirrups should come back to your
feet.
A GOOD instructor can really help your riding and give adivice on the
suitability of this horse for you. I still take lessons which really helps
me improve. My horse NEVER takes off with me now, and we are jumping a 2'
course. In fact, "Mi Amigo" is a good boy and always tries very had for
me!
I hope my advice helps you. Believe me, "BEEN THERE. DONE THAT. GOT THE
T- SHIRT!" Keep in mind that I am not a trainer, and have limited
experience. I hope you can find a good instructor to help you. Good luck
with your riding, and give your horsey a big hug from me.
-Mi Amigo's Mom
>
Kris Anderson
In article , mor...@atl.mindspring.com says...
>
>dob...@aol.com (Dobgirl) wrote:
>
>>Thank you! One person out there who recognizes that horses sometimes do
>>things NOT because they are afraid or abused, BUT because some of them are
>
>But they *get* "obnoxious" because some human (and it might well not
>be the current owner) has been in error in handling/riding them
>incorrectly one too many times- or the horse is in actual physical
>pain, in which case bad behavior is simply an attempt to rid itself of
>the pain (or that which the animal feels is causing the pain- the
>rider). I second Sue- check the saddle fit- and also second the
>multitude of other posters who have stated that getting a trainer
>involved is a good idea. If funds are a problem, most trainers are
>always willing to let folks work off their lessons.
>
Kris, who finds it odd that the same horse that will be characterized as obnoxious with one rider, will be an angle for another, but some still persist in blaming the horse, Anderson
>http://www.mindspring.com/~morgans/Laura.htm
>http://www.astroarch.com/modelhorse/resin/Behning.html
>
Clare E. Aukofer
res...@deyr.ultranet.com writes:
> On 4 Jan 1997 19:04:27 GMT, stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Deborah
> Stevenson) wrote:
>
>
> >We used to have a genuine once-a-year troll from somebody who posted
> >developed a certain affection for it :-), but there's no question that
> >people's responding seriously to it took up time and space better spent
> >on other pursuits.
> >
>
> Ob horsey: just got the first booking of the year for my stallion.
> ************
> "From a sea song foaming
> with slashing brine;
> from a sunbeam springs
> a horse with tangled mane." R.Hunter
Yeah, I sort of miss him, too. Maybe if we gave him immunity
from the troll hunts, as long as he promised to label it
"WEDDING TROLL" and post only in January...
Clare Aukofer, what has dated, if not married, certain men
*resembling* trolls...in Charlottesville, ce...@Virginia.edu
--
Kris Carroll
Realized that after I sent it. And I *finally* figured out how the kids do
this - they divide # of inches by 4 on the blessed calculator. <G>
Kris C
CATKNSN
I didn't see the original post, but is anyone arguing that horses do not
have distinct personalities, and like people, may be stubborn and *not*
wish to do what is asked of them, even if their handler/rider is a paragon
of patience and training expertise?
I do agree that 95% of horse misbehavior is caused by poor training, poor
riding or pain, but I also believe there are 5% out there that don't
particularly want to be ridden, or at the very least, aren't going to make
training easy.
Dobgirl
<I didn't see the original post, but is anyone arguing that horses do not
<have distinct personalities, and like people, may be stubborn and *not*
<wish to do what is asked of them, even if their handler/rider is a
paragon
<of patience and training expertise?
THANK YOU! I am the original poster, and that was actually the entire
post. I was referring to the few horses that seem to have been born with
highly developed senses of humor, but yes, there are some that also just
don't like particular people. They may be fine with a certain individual,
and hate everyone else. Horses have personalities, preferences and
likes/dislikes, just like humans.
Jeanne Hinds
Have to agree with you dobgirl and respectfully disagree with you Sheila
and others that believe all horses are born without sin and only get
nasty because of the incompetence of humans.
I just sold a very intelligent 16 hand gelding who outwitted me and two
trainers. We tried Parelli and Lyons to no avail. THe horse was simply
so smart that he figured out how to get around whatever it was we
wanted. I have never in my life seen such a determined, persistent
horse. I stood there for two hours one day slapping him across the
muzzle with the soft end fo the lead rope to get his head up from
grazing - a Parelli non-resistence technique I was told. I finally gave
up because the horse had figured out what I wanted (it worked the first
few days) but he simply ignored it. And he had far more patience that I
did.
THe bottom line was that the horse did not respect women at all. He
would drag women all over the place, invade your personal space,
threaten you with bared teeth but was positively angelic with men. My
non-horsey husband could get instant obedience from the horse but I with
my 20+ years of riding got nothing! While he was a dream to ride (even
my 8 year old rode him with not a single problem) , he was an
opportunistic bully on the ground. After determining that he simply was
not appropriate for a family farm, I sold him to a local man and it is a
great match. THe man treats him well and the horse has a man he can
respect.
Maybe he was abused by a woman earlier in life but frankly I don't care.
I care about how I treat him and whether he responds to training by me
or a trainer I hire. If he cannot, it's time to sell him.
My first horse was certainly not abused. He was actually treated very
well. By the time he was sold to me , he had ingrained habits that were
nearly impossible to break. He adored people, was super gentle and
trusting but extremely smart as well. He had the most annoying trick of
dumping you off by waiting until you were cantering and then swerving
sharply to one side. You would go flying off, he would stop immediately,
wait for you to get back on and he would try it all over again. When we
figured out how to thwart that behavior he merely escalated it to
scraping you against trees and fence posts. It didn't matter what
saddle was used nor the fact that a rubber mouthed snaffle was utilized
- he certainly wasn't in pain. He was a brat who resisted being ridden
out of plain and simple laziness.
I now own three very kind horses, all of whom I know their histories and
none were abused. All horses have a lazy streak and some excel at
maintaining a non-working status better than others. My mare Scarlet
will nip at your sleeve as you put the saddle on her if she thinks she
can get away with it or she will cow kick back with a front leg as the
saddle is tightened (and no amount of slowly tightening the girth abates
this behavior). Teddy the super gentle gelding will also turn around
and mouth you and lightly nip even while adjusting stirrups *if* he
thinks he can get away with it. Philly the pony bucks when asked to
work more than she wants to.
All their attempts at bad behavior are met with discipline but I would
certainly reject the notion that my horses attempt these misbehaviors
because of something I did. Putting it simply - horses were not born
perfect, they are selfish creatures and if we ascribe diverse
personality traits to them, then it is not unheard of to assume that
individuals can be brats, evil, bullies, pigs, and other undesireable
personality types.
Jeanne Hinds
Richard Bishop wrote:
>
> In <5ajkv2$1...@nntp5.u.washington.edu> kcar...@halcyon.com (Kris
> Carroll) writes:
> >
> >On 01/02/97, Sullys Maze wrote:
> >> I want to know where the
> >>parents are in all this. Why are THEY letting a 16 year old poor
> >>rider go out alone on a poorly trained horse?>
> >
> >Sure blame the victims. They're probably hiding in the basement, glad
> it's
> >out of the house.
> >
>
> ROTFASTC!! Thanks, Kris, for speaking out for all of us beleagered
> parents.
>
> Sue has a son moving BACK home after being gone a year.... Do you think
> he might find us if we sell really fast and move across the country?
But wait! If we apply what seems to be the prevailing opinion on
rec.equestrian that horses misbehave because of something we stupid
humans do to them rather than horses simply misbehaving because they are
imperfect creatures, then it follows that misbehavior of children can
only be the direct fault of the parents who have obviously done
something to provoke that misbehavior.
Jeanne Hinds
Kris Carroll wrote:
>
> On 01/03/97, Jeanne Hinds wrote:
> >you retract your troll accusation or will we have to drag it out of you
> >like the time you falsely accused the wrong jumpers association of
> >stealing your copyrighted web art?
>
> accusations didn't come from me. As for you dragging anything anywhere, now
> or in the past, dream on. My sympathy to your horses and your family. You've
> got a problem lady, and it ain't me.
>
> Kris C.
Yep, Kris is right. I did make an error in stating she leveled the
first troll accusation and therefore I retract my statement about trolls
and apologize. I do not retract much else simply because Kris's
contribution to this thread has been nothing but one ad hominem, pompous
post after another.
Your "*first* post on the matter", Kris? Alta Vista shows you posting
this latest lovely example of ad hominem spew on Jan 4th at the time of
16:18:27. This is after you posted three other posts on Jan 3
(18:59:46), Jan 3 (21:24:28) and Jan 4 (2:16:20). Obviously your "first
post on the matter" came after three other highly "constructive" posts.
Let's see, first you referred to Kim as "it", as in "They're probably
hiding in the basement, glad it's out of the house." Then you referred
to her as a "brat" and "braindead" who would get "eaten alive" by your
dutiful horde of little junior riders who it seems are being encouraged
in their elitist criticisms by their leader. Then you mention that the
parents should "sell the kid". Not one piece of constructive advice in
your entire repetoire of posts on this thread yet your contemporaries on
this newsgroup obviously saw the error they made and rectified it with
some decent advice.
Umm, and yes, I was one of the people insisting that you apologize
publically for your stupid foot in mouth mishap of wrongly (and
publically) accusing the wrong web site and organization of stealing
your web art. Geez, don't make me have to prove it by providing
DejaNews and Alta Vista data.
So, I am the formation of the "Gloriosus Asinus Round-up" committee, a
group fo people dedicated to identifying, labeling and branding all
errant gloriosus anisus running rampant through rec.equestrian.
Qualifying characteristics of a "gloriosus asinus" are as follows:
1. Elitist mentality that sees anyone who doesn't have the same level
of horse experience as they do to be somehoiw mentally deficient, brats,
morons, idiots, fools.
2. Gloriosus anisus are born perfect. They had total knowledge of
horses from infancy, they never made a mistake and they all have perfect
horses. And they like to rub that fact in to their lesser well-informed
horseowning kin.
3. Gloriosus anisus have nothing contructive to offer either because to
actually state some advice might be construed by someone as being an
incorrect or outmoded training technique (and remember, they must
maintain their appearances of being perfect) OR the more likely scenerio
is that they really have nothing of substance to offer so instead they
utilize the time honored method of intimidating someone - call them
names! Question their sanity! Cast aspersions on their character!
4. Some glorisus anisus do have something substantive to say however
they believe their way is simply the only way of doing it and by God, if
you disagree with them, you are a non-professional moron and obviously
weren't born perfect like they were!
5. The truly distinquishing breed characteristic of a gloriosus anisus
is the loud braying of derision at someone's acknowldgement of ignorance
or well-intentioned but erroneous decisions regarding their horse.
Gloriosus anisus have no capacity to assume the best but merely assume
the worst and they love to rub it in.
Congratulations Kris! You are the first recognized gloriosus asinus of
the 1997 Round-Up with your lovely contributions to the "Oh, God! Why
did he do it?" thread.
Jeanne - Founding president of the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to
Neophyte Horseowners on Rec. Equestrian