c5 corvette quality [long]
just...@my-dejanews.com
You know, I *wanted* to like the C5. I really did. There's much that
this car has going for it. If you ignore the fat rear end, the styling is
attractive. The concept of the car is just fine. Being a gadget-freak, I
like the gadgets like the HUD and the DIC.
I was in the market for a high performance car, but I believe I will have
to end up going with the BMW M3 or possibly the Toyota Supra instead.
The problem? With every new generation of Corvette, we hear the same
mantra repeated: "We fixed the quality problems - and we mean it this
time! No, really! Why won't you believe us?" And every generation, it
turns out to be false. I remember hearing the stories back in '84 or so
when the C4's first appeared, about how these were going to be well built
cars, which would last, and which wouldn't suffer from the same old
quality issues. How they wouldn't develop the same old sqeeks and
rattles. But what happened? It didn't turn out to be true. After a few
years, you could hardly give away a 1984 C4, and they were notorious for
being at the bottom of the quality scale, ranked there by every objective
quality study.
Now it seems the same scenario is being repeated yet again with the C5. A
buddy of mine bought a 98 some time back. Looks *gorgeous*! Silver
metalic, black interior, 6-spd, couldn't be a sexier looking car if it
tried. But I can't even remember all the problems he's had with it so
far. Leaking windows. Rattles. Squeeks. To the dealer's credit they
fixed a number of them, but not all. There's some sort of transmission
rattle that he's had no luck getting fixed. "That's normal", they tell
him. It sounds like a bunch of marbles in a coffee can. Can you imagine
buying a $40,000+ M3 or Supra and having BMW or Toyota tell you "Sure, it
rattles like a child's toy, but that's normal"?? So why should it be
tolerated in a $40,000 car from GM? Then there's the oil leak, and the
sqeaky clutch pedal. Oh, and the paper-thin seats that wore through in a
matter of months. (To their credit, GM replaced this too with no hassle
whatsoever, but still.... will the next one be any better? Or the next?
What about when the car goes out of warrantee?)
Now, I'm not foolish enough to believe that one bad apple spoils the
bunch. But the problem is that these stories are *so* common that one
really wonders what's going on. It seems that among people with the
6-speeds, a very high percentage, like 80% or more, have the transmission
rattle. There are stories of orange-peel paint, hoods not closing
properly, seats wearing out after a few thousand miles, electronic
problems, whining fuel pumps, transmissions popping out of gear, power
seats not working, poor levels of fit and finish, and lots of other stuff.
If it was only a rare occurance, that would be one thing, but almost
everyone I've spoken to in person who owns a C5 has had problems with it.
To be fair, I've read some newsgroup posts from C5-owners who have been
problem-free, but this seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
So I've decided to hang in there for a while. If BMW-NA ever gets off
it's ass and gives us a Euro-spec M3, that'll be my next car, I think.
Corvette-levels of performance, even better-than-corvette handling, in a
sedan with a back seat! Otherwise, it's probably going to be a Supra-TT.
I really hope that GM can manage to fix its quality issues, because
_emotionally_, the C5 is my favorite car of the bunch, and certainly the
most attractive (IMHO). It's just that I can't see paying $40+ thousand
dollars for a car only to be told "hey, rattles are normal! Just live
with it." This attitude was what enabled Japan to bring Detroit to its
knees in the 80's - haven't they learned their lesson from that
experience?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Irwin J. Gordon
says...
I hate to rain on anyone's parade but 1998 was the last year for the
Supra and what there is now is all there's gonna be. So you'll have to
eliminate a NEW Supra from your choice list.
Robert Henriksen
It's funny to read this tonight -- I've been struggling with this same
issue, and I don't know if I can go from having miserable experiences at the
Ford dealership, trade up to a Corvette for twice the money, and then have
more of the same misery.
I just hate the idea of being in a BMW or Mercedes -- it just isn't me;
can't afford the Porsche I'd want; and would really rather have the vette,
but can't bear the thought of more aggravation when I drop that much money
on a car.
Lately I've been thinking, Hey - wait until the 2K model year, maybe it'll
be better! <g> Besides, I can use another year of capital gains on my money,
what the heck, I'm not driving a jalopy now...
Okay, the twelve-year-old contingent around here can start flaming us now.
just...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<710csn$hfe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>You know, I *wanted* to like the C5. I really did. There's much that
>this car has going for it. If you ignore the fat rear end, the styling is
>attractive. The concept of the car is just fine. Being a gadget-freak, I
>like the gadgets like the HUD and the DIC.
>
>I was in the market for a high performance car, but I believe I will have
>to end up going with the BMW M3 or possibly the Toyota Supra instead.
>
<snip>
3DfxCOOL
stock holders and not its car buyers. If you weren't buying a Corvette
would you be buying a GM?
--
Bart A. Lane
fa...@3dfxcool.com
3DfxCOOL / High Quality Computer Cooling Fans
http://www.3dfxcool.com
GLitwinski wrote in message <19981025215516...@ng107.aol.com>...
>>This is why I am doing a reliability survey. Do us all a favor and
>>get your message to the right people at General Motors. These
>>problems will not be corrected unless Corvette owners give notice.
>>
>>
>
>Do you seriously think that GM management will care one bit? You'll get a
>polite letter and that will be the end of it. The car is selling well, so
>everything must be just swell and nothing needs fixing any faster than GM
plans
>to fix it.
>
>GM management are busy trying to make the corporation cost competitive with
>Ford and Chrysler (let alone the Japanese makers). They are not going to
have
>any time to waste on your complaints about a low volume model (that will
never
>be anything other than a low volume model) coming out of an under-utilzed
plant
>in Kentucky. This company is not Porsche or BMW. It is not run by car guys.
It
>is also not a Japanese company run by quality fanatics.
>
>I wish you well. Just don't set yourself up for a rude dose of reality.
>
>- GRL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Proudly serving since 1992 as a charter member of the VRWC*
>
>*VRWC (NASDAQ:VAST) is a registered trademark of Vast Right Wing
Conspiracy,
>Inc.
>
Art
get your message to the right people at General Motors. These
problems will not be corrected unless Corvette owners give notice.
On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:40:07 GMT, just...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
>You know, I *wanted* to like the C5. I really did. There's much that
>this car has going for it. If you ignore the fat rear end, the styling is
>attractive. The concept of the car is just fine. Being a gadget-freak, I
>like the gadgets like the HUD and the DIC.
>
>I was in the market for a high performance car, but I believe I will have
>to end up going with the BMW M3 or possibly the Toyota Supra instead.
>
VetteMan48
now and am very satisfied for the time being. I'm in a wait and see mode
myself.
Ron
GLitwinski
>get your message to the right people at General Motors. These
>problems will not be corrected unless Corvette owners give notice.
>
>
Do you seriously think that GM management will care one bit? You'll get a
Art
(in fact they have already seen the results in this newsgroup). The
engineers and top management genuinely want to make better cars
because it is profitable in the long run. There are many layers of
"insulation" at General Motors in addition to apathetic customers that
has historically resulted in lesser quality products. This newsgroup
is an example of why this will change product quality and customer
service for all companies. People now have a world wide forum to air
their opinions and complaints which is a powerful incentive to keep
companies honest. Just ask anyone who runs an Internet business; if
you don't treat the customer right, it will be in the newsgroups.
Dr. Robert A. Harms
>this car has going for it. If you ignore the fat rear end, the styling is
>attractive. The concept of the car is just fine. Being a gadget-freak, I
>like the gadgets like the HUD and the DIC.
>
>I was in the market for a high performance car, but I believe I will have
>to end up going with the BMW M3 or possibly the Toyota Supra instead.
>
>The problem? With every new generation of Corvette, we hear the same
>mantra repeated: "We fixed the quality problems - and we mean it this
>time! No, really! Why won't you believe us?" And every generation, it
>turns out to be false.
So painfully true. I drove (past tense) Corvettes for 25 years but never
bought new.
When I felt I had achieved a certain level I ourchased a new 1990 6 speed as
the dealer was unable to get me a ZR1.
The "ownership experiance" as the marketers say was a nightmare. Virtually
every component on the car failed: steering, brakes, belt, ac. alternator,
mysterious drivability problems, seats that instantly wore through, and
electronics such as VATS and airbags were never ever repaired and even rust
flakes in the paint. 3 years, 4 alternators multiple batteries and an AC
system with 15 pounds of freon led to an experiance so bad that one of the
dealers provided gratis rental cars rather than incur the ire of my
secretary. The wild card in the Corvette quality fiasco seems usually to be
the dealer. The two I tried were incompetent and indifferent and were
responsible for the aforementioned freon system and even , managed to
install
a tire backwards after fixing a puncture that occurred at their facilities.
In the end I prevailed on my bank to loan the funds to a new owner with the
proviso that I take back a second mortgage for the balance they were
unwilling to extend. Sure enough the new owners funds were chiefly extended
for new alternators and not to the bank or me. When the bank finally found
the car at some repair shop they provided me the opportunity to re-own. NOT.
The rest of the story ends up with me buying brand V in 1993. Crappy radio,
worse top,
similar less than super star dealers but the car is simple and trouble free.
Another Corvette-sure Im looking for an original 54. C5 never.
Dr. Robert A. Harms
This is all bullshit. Employees at General Motors want to keep their jobs
in an increasingly hostile environment. General motors wants to make a
profit for the stockholders and top management stock owners and persons
whose income is tied to stock performance.
Read "All Corvettes are Red": GM management is not committed to the
Corvette nor its fading position in the great scheme of performance cars.
The goals of the C5 was to make a car that was simple and inexpensive to
produce with as limited funding as possible. Performance was not a
significant issue.
Art wrote in message <36341283...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>>
>
Ms.Goodwrench
was a new & used car dealer for 30-odd years always lectured us "you
never buy a new model - wait till it's been on the market a couple of
years". A friend of the family had her then-new C4 back to the dealer
six times for transmission problems. After a host of other problems,
she traded it in on a '95, which she's had no problems with. It's hard
not to rush out and buy a new model... almost everyone I know who bought
the 'new' Dodge pickup when it was released had numerous quality
problems, most of which have been remedied at this point, or so I've
read. It's hard, but my husband and I have our cardinal rule of auto
buying -- no new models.
jean
Andrew Brimberry
of the choices available, the C5 is the best in theory. The car is gorgeous
and fun to drive. The 6 speed rattle is annoying, but still tolerable (I
may not feel the same way in a year). I have developed a strange
belt-sounding noise from the engine. My dealership's answer was that it is
within the tolerable noise limits set by GM. My service advisor agreed he
wouldn't be happy if he was driving a $50K car with the noise. He pretty
much told me I was SOL, but he would keep an eye out for a TSB. Yesterday
the DIC told me to have the Ride Control serviced. The sport seats are
wearing already.
My previous car is a 1993 Mazda RX7. I had nothing but trouble with that
car until the engine was replaced at 39K miles. The car has performed
flawlessly since then. It was time for a new car based on the mileage of
the RX7 and my need for new toys! If the RX7 was still being made, I would
have purchased another one. The car handles better and the stereo is much
better than my C5. The C5 clearly has the advantage with the gadgets, which
I enjoy.
I guess the purpose of this message is to state my experiences. I wish I
could feel I was getting the max. value for my $50K. Only time will tell if
GM will step up and take care of me as a valued customer. Thank you for
your time.
Andrew Brimberry
1999 C5 Coupe
1993 RX7
just...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<710csn$hfe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>You know, I *wanted* to like the C5. I really did. There's much that
>this car has going for it. If you ignore the fat rear end, the styling is
>attractive. The concept of the car is just fine. Being a gadget-freak, I
>like the gadgets like the HUD and the DIC.
>
>I was in the market for a high performance car, but I believe I will have
>to end up going with the BMW M3 or possibly the Toyota Supra instead.
>
<SNIP>
Gil Milow
says...
> I guess the purpose of this message is to state my experiences. I wish I
> could feel I was getting the max. value for my $50K. Only time will tell if
> GM will step up and take care of me as a valued customer. Thank you for
> your time.
Since everyone here is telling their stories, I decided - why not, I'll
tell mine. In 1996 I bought a Cavalier Z24. Seemed great.. it performed
better than any car I had driven up to that point and it had a nice low
price.
Small things went wrong, but I guess that's natural. First the air
conditioning fan would stay on even when the car was off, then the cruise
control broke. However when I picked up the car after the dealer fixed
the cruise control, the clutch started wearing VERY fast. By the time I
got to work, the car would barely move and the clutch seemed completely
worn. OK, so I call the dealer and they arrange a tow-truck to take it to
the dealer. Even the tow-truck guy was saying how it wouldn't move and
barely got it on his truck.
That day the dealer calls me up and tells me that the car was fine and I
would have to pay for the towing charge because GM would not cover it.
The car is FINE? What the hell? And I have to pay for the charge? Huh?
The rest is a long story but let me just say that I had to go through a
lot of bullshit and lost hours of work and my personal time as well (it
turned out that the clutch really WAS worn because of something they did
which they would not acknowledge).
You may say soamething to the effect of "must be a bad dealer." BUT, all
throughout this ordeal, I called GM multiple times, and guess what? They
didn't care. They basically told me "go to another dealer."
What kind of crap is that? I can't imagine me calling up BMW with a
complaint about a dealer's service dept and them telling me to go to
another dealer. That's like saying "we know some of our dealers suck,
that's a fact of life."
It really sucks that this happened because right now I can't imagine
myself buying an American car ever again. Especially a GM. So I
sympathize with you Corvette people because I know exactly what you're
going through.
--
Gil Milow
To reply to this message, use mil...@dialogic.com
Bill Sanders
I don't understand one guy said his 6-speed rattled? well you didn't
hear it in the test drive you took? I mean come on you all need to get a
grip! Out off what 32,000 build of 98 I think it is like the whole
population of Corvettes are bad? Give me a Break! I tried out BMW's The
Boxter and let me tell you they don't come near the Vette.My 1998 C5
Auto has no problems is quiet..the car gets good gas millage and all my
neghbors can't keep their paws off it. So whats everyones point? don't
put all of us in the I hate GM company without them there is no Vette!
Good book to read is called Corvette C5 by Mike Mueller gives an insight
on the evolution of this model as does as the other gentelman had
mentioned all corvettes are red. As a new owner of a Vette, I look upon
this group for help about things that are common or if I do have a
problem there are great people who can help if you all hate your Vettes
Gezz get rid of them! buy Fords! or Vipers But to come on and tell my
buddy senerio please!!! if you can't buy one don't gripe here! buy a
KIA!!!
Scherrie Who Loves Her C5!!!
P.S. My Opion!
Jas...@ibm.net
to Justin_S. I have a 99 coupe (6-speed,Z51) with about 2k miles. My
previous car was a 93 Supra Twin-Turbo. I can report no problems with the
Corvette to date. The transmission makes a low gear noise when accelerating
very slowly in 1st gear from a dead stop. It is not a rattle and sounds
exactly as it does in the owners video where it is mentioned explicitly. I
don't consider it a problem.
I put over 40k miles on the Supra and had several problems. The water
pump failed (very bad on a turbo), causing radiator fluid to spray under the
hood. The paint faded and was very thin. The seats were worn on the bolsters
and bottom. The power antenna wouldn't raise below 50 degrees.
The Corvette feels much stiffer and more powerful. The Supra would vibrate
with terrible cowl shake going over ridges or offset bumbs with the targa top
off. It made me not want to take the top off ever. The Corvette does not
shake at all.
All cars will experience some mechanical problems. I understand that I may
have to replace a faulty water pump (or whatever) on the Corvette after 40k
miles. I havn't seen a car yet that doesn't display some kind of seat wear
over time. For my $40,000, the Corvette is simply the best car available.
The Corvette may or may not hold up better than the Supra in the long run.
There is no perfect mechanical device. I know that the Corvette is a vastly
superior car in driving performance. That's where it really counts anyway.
In response to some of the previous posts:
1. GM is managed by business people - not car guys. The C5 WAS engineered by
car guys as mentioned in "All Corvettes are Red". Dave Hill as as much a car
guy as I have ever seen.
2. A Cavalier is not comparable to a Corvette. Same as a Tercel is not
comparable to a Supra. Quality control, purchasing, production, and most
importantly engineering are different.
3. The C5 is no longer a new model. GM's process of continual production
improvement (yes, they are actually doing it at Bowling Green) has lead to
fixes for early model problems such as: noisy fuel pumps, wind noise, and
cabin noise.
In article <710csn$hfe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
just...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> You know, I *wanted* to like the C5. I really did. There's much that
> this car has going for it. If you ignore the fat rear end, the styling is
> attractive. The concept of the car is just fine. Being a gadget-freak, I
> like the gadgets like the HUD and the DIC.
>
> I was in the market for a high performance car, but I believe I will have
> to end up going with the BMW M3 or possibly the Toyota Supra instead.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Art
amazing. If you have a problem with your Vette, lets fix it. If you
want to bitch (do nothing), please dump the car and go elsewhere.
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:05:16 -0600, Bill Sanders <i...@isource.net>
wrote:
PawlRevere
seat, and finally the gas gage is a little off.
while these are a problem, i would never take it to a dealer until absolutely
necessary.
i still love the car, but you know, the payments kinda suck.
bar...@nospam.giganews.com
: I think if you went across the board alot of models have problems. What
: I don't understand one guy said his 6-speed rattled? well you didn't
: hear it in the test drive you took? I mean come on you all need to get a
: grip! Out off what 32,000 build of 98 I think it is like the whole
: population of Corvettes are bad? Give me a Break! I tried out BMW's The
Test drive? I bought my C5 in May 1997. I bought it SITE UNSEAN. No dealer
had a model in the showroom. The 6speed rattle is not a fairy tail, it
exists on the 6speed C5s. Just because you have an automatic, does not
mean the 6speed manual rattle does not exist. I refuse to drive the Auto
vette (my preference).
Jonah
--
Jonah Barron Yokubaitis
http://www.texas.net <--- The ISP
http://www.giganews.com <--- News Outsourcing
Art
This problem is solved by using rubber bushings to insulate the
shifter from engine vibration. The F-bodys have this. Performance
shifters eliminate the bushings and hence you get the rattle.
reb
gorgeous,
fast and fun.
You want a C5 or you don't - you don't.
rebelcymoryl
just...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<710csn$hfe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>You know, I *wanted* to like the C5. I really did. There's much that
>this car has going for it. If you ignore the fat rear end, the styling is
>attractive. The concept of the car is just fine. Being a gadget-freak, I
>like the gadgets like the HUD and the DIC.
>
>I was in the market for a high performance car, but I believe I will have
>to end up going with the BMW M3 or possibly the Toyota Supra instead.
>
>The problem? With every new generation of Corvette, we hear the same
>mantra repeated: "We fixed the quality problems - and we mean it this
>time! No, really! Why won't you believe us?" And every generation, it
Ray M. Ransom
Why is it the guys who whine the loudest about the perceived lack of
perfection in something are the guys who are the most helpless when it comes
to fixing it?
I can't speak for my C5, as it is scheduled to be built this week, but after
many small problems with my C4 and extreme dissatisfaction regarding the
feeble attempts by the dealer to resolve them, I began fixing everything
myself that went wrong or that I did not like. One by one, the problems
disappeared, for good, after they had been fixed by the only person I should
have trusted to fix them in the first place: me. The oil leaking from the
valve covers took a few hours and a few dollars; less time than convincing
the service writer the problem really existed. The buzzing from inside the
passenger door took ten minutes to fix. The squeaking from the plastic trim
in the roof required several attempts, but was finally eliminated by placing
little pieces of foam behind it. (Which gave me a much greater appreciation
for the impossible position into which we put the dealer mechanic. What is
flat-rate for this job, anyway?) A good friend in the body business and I
spent a weekend aligning parts that did not fit properly and sanding off,
respraying and buffing out the orange peel in the paint.
I could have spent the same time I spent making my car better fighting with
the nitwits at the dealer, praying for divine intervention or cussing
Chevrolet and GM, as some of the more self-deluded seem inclined to do, but
the car would never have improved and I never would have been satisfied with
it. As it was, that car became consistently as perfect I imagine a car can
be. And so it shall be with the C5.
So you guys can continue to whine and complain, while expecting others to
deliver up your idealistic fantasy realm in which all things are judged
relative to a car you've never owned or a car that is no longer made, or you
can join the real world, where mechanical things break and designs are not
perfect right out of the box, and accept the fact that the utopia you dream
about exists only in science fiction stories and the twisted minds of
liberal politicians.
And besides, if the squeaks and rattles were to magically vanish, 40+ years
of tradition would vanish right along with them--and the result would not be
a Corvette, would it?
Chuck Tomlinson
>just...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
>>
>>You know, I *wanted* to like the C5...
>
>Why is it the guys who whine the loudest about the perceived lack of
>perfection in something are the guys who are the most helpless when it comes
>to fixing it?
>
>I can't speak for my C5, as it is scheduled to be built this week, but after
>many small problems with my C4 and extreme dissatisfaction regarding the
>feeble attempts by the dealer to resolve them, I began fixing everything
>myself that went wrong or that I did not like. One by one, the problems
>disappeared, for good, after they had been fixed by the only person I should
>have trusted to fix them in the first place: me.
Here's my 2c... I am in the same position as you: if my car has a
minor flaw, I can fix it myself. In fact, I'd much rather do that
than leave my car at the mercy of some dealership's pack of ham-
fisted buffoons, warranty or no warranty.
But... many people lack the aptitude, desire, time, facilities, or
"friends in the business" to fix a car themselves, and there's no
reason to berate them for it. Furthermore, I think it is perfectly
reasonable for customers to expect a brand new $50k car to have *at
least* the same level of durability as the average econobox.
The C5's evaporating sport seats are a perfect example. IMHO, there
is *no excuse* for any C5 customer to suffer excessive seat wear in
a nearly-new car. Countless drivers of lesser cars will *never* see
noticeable wear on their seats. The C5 should be no exception!
Other niggling items like the noisy fuel pumps are bound to leave
the customer with the impression that GM haphazardly tossed the car
together and shoved it out the door. It's reasonable, IMHO, to be
pessimistic about such a car's long-term durability.
The simple fact is that modern cars (especially expensive ones) can
be built without using crappy, sub-standard parts. I'm quite
confident that the Corvette engineering team didn't sign off on
those crap parts. I would not be surprised if most of the C5's
quality problems could be traced back to GM Purchasing's lunatic
obsession with low purchase price, to the point of ignoring the
*true cost* of warranty work and a reputation for poor quality.
Regardless of the reason, the C5 apparently is not living up to its
design potential. If so, GM had better find out why.
I've put 100k miles on my '94 C4, and I may soon be in the market
for a new car. It will probably be a C5, but only because I know I
can finish the job that the factory started and the design engineers
intended. For the less mechanically-inclined, a C5 starts to seem
more like a crap-shoot.
BTW, I've had only a handful of problems with my C4 in that 100k
miles: seat motor DOA, crappy rear carpet, the LT1 Oil Leak, and the
Non-Retracting Power Antenna. Sometimes, I almost feel lucky...
>And besides, if the squeaks and rattles were to magically vanish, 40+ years
>of tradition would vanish right along with them--and the result would not be
>a Corvette, would it?
Yes sir, it most certainly WOULD be a Corvette!
--
Chuck Tomlinson
'94 Z07/ZF6, 100k miles
just...@my-dejanews.com
> Shifter rattle is not uncommon. It is a problem in a few other cars.
The shifter rattle is something else. I believe there's a TSB for that.
But this is a rattle *inside* the transmission, which sounds like marbles
in a coffee can. It's still present with people who replace their stock
shifters with aftermarket shifters.
just...@my-dejanews.com
"Ray M. Ransom" <*micosyen*@bigbear.net> wrote:
> Why is it the guys who whine the loudest about the perceived lack of
> perfection in something are the guys who are the most helpless when it
> comes to fixing it?
I'm not sure this is really very fair. I'd like to buy a Corvette. I can
fix quite a few things, actually - most minor rattles and squeeks I can
fix myself. But tearing apart a transmission to fix a rattle that may
very well be a _design issue_ is, I admit, beyond me. So is re-covering a
seat in better leather. I think many of these things are beyond almost
every garage-level mechanic, too. Anyway, why should I *have* to do this?
I could just buy an M3 instead.
I guess my point is that I'm a Corvette fanatic at heart. I read
everything I can get my hands on that deals with the Corvette. I just
bought "All Corvettes Are Red" and red it from cover to cover. I read
almost every newsgroup post dealing with vettes. I browse the web for
Corvette pictures. I can't get enough of the beasts. I *should* be
exactly the sort of person that Chevy wants to sell vettes to!
But when otherwise loyal customers start looking elsewhere because of
quality issues in a $40000 car, then I believe it's a concern that needs
to be addressed. Right now, it isn't something that GM "sees" because
they're selling out their entire production - the first few model years of
a vette always generate enough excitement for that. Does this mean it
doesn't matter? Does this mean GM can ignore the problems? I don't think
it does. It's exactly that sort of thinking that almost put GM out of
business when Japan courted customers who were looking for better quality
in the 80's.
> I can't speak for my C5, as it is scheduled to be built this week,
That's great :-).
> I began fixing everything myself that went wrong or that I did not like.
Well, if you can remove and tear apart the tranny and fix the M6 rattle,
you're in a different class than I am as a mechanic. But I don't think
that my relative lack of skill here should mean I either can't own a
vette, or have to live with these sorts of problems. The M3's tranny
doesn't rattle.
> So you guys can continue to whine and complain, while expecting others
> to deliver up your idealistic fantasy realm in which all things are
This seems to me to be the thinking espoused by Detroit in the 70's. "So
what if it's crap? They'll buy it anyway."
> of tradition would vanish right along with them--and the result would
> not be a Corvette, would it?
It would be a *better* corvette, and one I'd gladly plunk down my $40
grand for. (Well, $43-ish the way I'd like mine equipped).
just...@my-dejanews.com
glitw...@aol.com (GLitwinski) wrote:
> in Kentucky. This company is not Porsche or BMW. It is not run by car
> guys. It is also not a Japanese company run by quality fanatics.
Well, I agree with you that GM is not run by "car guys", it's run by
business guys. But I think that somewhere in the design of the C5, some
real "car guys" must have played a part. There's too much that was done
right, design-wise, to be coincidence.
just...@my-dejanews.com
Bill Sanders <i...@isource.net> wrote:
> I don't understand one guy said his 6-speed rattled? well you didn't
> hear it in the test drive you took? I mean come on you all need to get a
> grip! Out off what 32,000 build of 98 I think it is like the whole
> population of Corvettes are bad?
Actually, a very large percentage of the M6's *do* have the rattle. I
think your chance of getting one that doesn't is pretty slim. And I'm the
sort of person who would never consider an automatic tranny in a car like
a Vette.
I guess what really gets my goat is not so much the rattle itself, but
GM's attitude: "Hey, just live with it".
> if you all hate your Vettes
There's a big difference between hating Vettes and wanting them to get
better so I can buy one! I *love* Vettes. That's why it's so difficult
for me to be forced into considering other automobiles. I admit the M3 is
growing on me, but it will never be *quite* the emotional favorite that
the Vette is, not to mention that I can't get my hands on a real Euro-spec
one here in the states.
bar...@nospam.giganews.com
: Shifter rattle is not uncommon. It is a problem in a few other cars.
: This problem is solved by using rubber bushings to insulate the
: shifter from engine vibration. The F-bodys have this. Performance
: shifters eliminate the bushings and hence you get the rattle.
My stock shifter made the rattle as well. Mallet specificaly told me they
had eliminated the rattle....oh well.
Mike Schriber
time posting how many problems their NOT having. This is true here,
on the Ford Mustang group, on sci.astro.amature and any other product
related group I've EVER been on.
For every guy with a problem there are twenty without.
Mike
--
Mike Schriber
schr...@hotchip.com
http://www.hotchip.com/schriber
619-597-0078
Nizar Dahbar
Buy a Benz or Acura in its first intro year and you won't have a
problem.
People! You pay for what you get! And in Detroit's case, crap.
Nizar Dahbar
> And besides, if the squeaks and rattles were to magically vanish, 40+ years
> of tradition would vanish right along with them--and the result would not be
> a Corvette, would it?
>
HA! Fuck tradition. Anyone can put a big-ass engine in a
very-low-to-the-ground chassis with fat-ass tires. Exciting engineering is
for the Europeans. Value goes to the Japs. Oh well, so much for the rest.
CDHoskns
with our Vettes may be due to the fact that we are more knowledgeable and
obsessed with our cars.
I never cared before my Vette about what my car did. It was transportation.
Chuck Hoskins
1991 Steel Blue Coupe
Remove SteelBlu from address to reply
Jas...@ibm.net
aluminum 345hp V-8, rear-mounted Borg-Warner 6-speed transmission,
hydro-formed frame-rails, a chassis with more rigidity than even 4-door
Benzs, 50/50 weight distribution, precise handling from 17"/18" tires, a
.29cd, and enough room for golf clubs and luggage. It is a world-class
sports car from Detroit. The performance envelope can't be touched by
anything less than twice it's cost.
I sold my Supra twin-turbo for the C5. I considered a Boxster, but where is
the power? The closest thing I could find to a new C5 is a used NSX. But
again, where is the power? And, I am not interested in maintaining a used
exotic car - even Acura's need maintenance. My C5 can be serviced under
warranty in practically every town in America.
The C5 is living with the reputation of 45 years of Corvette production. That
can be very good or bad, depending on your point of view. The C5 certainly is
'the best yet', and it is the best all-around sports car for the money today.
In article <Pine.OSF.4.02A.98102...@garden.WPI.EDU>,
Nizar Dahbar <nee...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
> Buy a Benz or Acura in its first intro year and you won't have a
> problem.
> People! You pay for what you get! And in Detroit's case, crap.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Tom Frederick
> had a model in the showroom. The 6speed rattle is not a fairy tail, it
> exists on the 6speed C5s. Just because you have an automatic, does not
> mean the 6speed manual rattle does not exist. I refuse to drive the Auto
> vette (my preference).
>
>
> --
> Jonah Barron Yokubaitis
> http://www.texas.net <--- The ISP
> http://www.giganews.com <--- News Outsourcing
I wouldn't say No dealer had a 97 that you could test drive. I was able to
take a test drive. That was in March 97. The dealer I ordered from keep the
97 they got for the unveiling so people could test drive it.
--
Tom Frederick
98 Pewter Ragtop
"BESTYET"
James Strathearn
Sadly, this sounds all too much like a "90's" attitude. Who cares about what
you've done for me yesterday. What have you done for me today! History?
Tradition? Who cares!
It's a sad situation.
BTW, have you noticed these people who constantly put our nameplate down,
but are always here? What kind of person wastes his time in a NG pertaining
to something he can't stand? These people must just have more time to waste
than brains to use...
Ray M. Ransom
Nizar Dahbar wrote in message ...
> Anyone can put a big-ass engine in a
>very-low-to-the-ground chassis with fat-ass tires.
Could you?
usro...@my-dejanews.com
Nizar Dahbar <nee...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
> Buy a Benz or Acura in its first intro year and you won't have a
> problem.
> People! You pay for what you get! And in Detroit's case, crap.
I disagree. Don't you remember the first TWO years(84/85) of the 190E? The
first year(86) of the 300E? Total disasters for MBZ.
just...@my-dejanews.com
tec...@ix.netcom.com (Art) wrote:
> amazing. If you have a problem with your Vette, lets fix it.
What is the fix for the transmission (not the shifter) rattle? GM doesn't
seem to know.
just...@my-dejanews.com
Jas...@ibm.net wrote:
> sports car from Detroit. The performance envelope can't be touched by
> anything less than twice it's cost.
How about the (real, Euro-spec) BMW M3? How about the Toyota Supra?
How about the Impreza WRX STi? Or some of the Lancer EVO models?
Granted, the Vette's performance is quite good, but I think it's far from
true that the performance "can't be touched by anything less than twice
its cost".
Bill Bechtold
just...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I admit the M3 is
> growing on me, but it will never be *quite* the emotional favorite that
> the Vette is, not to mention that I can't get my hands on a real Euro-spec
> one here in the states.
The new M3 will be a "world car". Meaning that we will get the same version
that the rest of the world gets. Rumor is that this includes over 350hp.
--
Bill Bechtold
SmartCamber Products
bbec...@smartcamber.com
http://www.smartcamber.com/
Edward Kim
> The new M3 will be a "world car". Meaning that we will get the same version
> that the rest of the world gets. Rumor is that this includes over 350hp.
Will the price stay the same?
********************************************************
*Edward Kim *
*Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia 30332*
*'97 SVT Cobra (#1714 of 6961) *
********************************************************
Jas...@ibm.net
My apologies for being US-centric. I know that there are some unique vehicles
available overseas. As for the Supra, I can vouch for the C5's superiority
first-hand. I mean total driving experience, not just 0-to-whatever time.
There just isn't much available for $40k in the US that compares. GM is
being bashed here for some perceived quality problems. On the other hand, it
is GM's tremendous purchasing power and economies of scale that allow a
fairly exotic car to be produced for half the price of an NSX. There are
better cars, but none for the same money.
In article <7150j7$js$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Art
noise your hear is at idle, it is caused by a no-load condition where
the gearsets, syncros, and shift forks cause the noise. When you
consider the low viscosity oil used in many transmissions today, this
adds to the noise. I am not sure if there is a fix, it may be a
normal condition. Of course one could opt for an automatic trans.
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:29:09 GMT, just...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In article <3634e71d...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
> tec...@ix.netcom.com (Art) wrote:
>
>> amazing. If you have a problem with your Vette, lets fix it.
>
>What is the fix for the transmission (not the shifter) rattle? GM doesn't
>seem to know.
>
stev...@microsoft.com
what most car buyers expect from a $50K car.
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:46:32 -0800, "Ray M. Ransom"
<*micosyen*@bigbear.net> wrote:
>just...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
><710csn$hfe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>
>>
>>You know, I *wanted* to like the C5...
>
>
>Why is it the guys who whine the loudest about the perceived lack of
>perfection in something are the guys who are the most helpless when it comes
>to fixing it?
>
>I can't speak for my C5, as it is scheduled to be built this week, but after
>many small problems with my C4 and extreme dissatisfaction regarding the
>feeble attempts by the dealer to resolve them, I began fixing everything
>myself that went wrong or that I did not like. One by one, the problems
>disappeared, for good, after they had been fixed by the only person I should
>have trusted to fix them in the first place: me. The oil leaking from the
>valve covers took a few hours and a few dollars; less time than convincing
>the service writer the problem really existed. The buzzing from inside the
>passenger door took ten minutes to fix. The squeaking from the plastic trim
>in the roof required several attempts, but was finally eliminated by placing
>little pieces of foam behind it. (Which gave me a much greater appreciation
>for the impossible position into which we put the dealer mechanic. What is
>flat-rate for this job, anyway?) A good friend in the body business and I
>spent a weekend aligning parts that did not fit properly and sanding off,
>respraying and buffing out the orange peel in the paint.
>
>I could have spent the same time I spent making my car better fighting with
>the nitwits at the dealer, praying for divine intervention or cussing
>Chevrolet and GM, as some of the more self-deluded seem inclined to do, but
>the car would never have improved and I never would have been satisfied with
>it. As it was, that car became consistently as perfect I imagine a car can
>be. And so it shall be with the C5.
>
>So you guys can continue to whine and complain, while expecting others to
>deliver up your idealistic fantasy realm in which all things are judged
>relative to a car you've never owned or a car that is no longer made, or you
>can join the real world, where mechanical things break and designs are not
>perfect right out of the box, and accept the fact that the utopia you dream
>about exists only in science fiction stories and the twisted minds of
>liberal politicians.
>
Ron Wohlgemuth
and what could the C5 do if deregulated to meet "euro spec"?
just...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <714jqh$d78$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> Jas...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> > sports car from Detroit. The performance envelope can't be touched by
> > anything less than twice it's cost.
>
> How about the (real, Euro-spec) BMW M3? How about the Toyota Supra?
> How about the Impreza WRX STi? Or some of the Lancer EVO models?
>
> Granted, the Vette's performance is quite good, but I think it's far from
> true that the performance "can't be touched by anything less than twice
> its cost".
>
PawlRevere
>Date: 10/27/98 3:01 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <Pine.OSF.4.02A.98102...@garden.WPI.EDU>
>
>
> Buy a Benz or Acura in its first intro year and you won't have a
>problem.
> People! You pay for what you get! And in Detroit's case, crap.
>
why dont you go back to your turd world country?
Bill Bechtold
Edward Kim wrote:
> Bill Bechtold <bbec...@smartcamber.com> wrote:
> > The new M3 will be a "world car". Meaning that we will get the same version
> > that the rest of the world gets. Rumor is that this includes over 350hp.
>
> Will the price stay the same?
There's no official word yet, but my guess is that the price will go up by $5K, or
so. I wonder if the engine will be hand made by the motorsports folks (Like the
Euro M3), or made on a production line (like the US M3.) If it is a production
line engine, perhaps they can keep the costs down. Of course, this is all just
pure speculation.
Bill Bechtold
"Ray M. Ransom" wrote:
Sure he could. I see plenty of lowed Camaros or Mustangs with big
enginess and tires rolling down the El Camino Real. Anyone can do
it, the trick is to do it and make the car perform well is *all*
areas. The C5 is the best GM effort so far, but I'd rather have a
'67 big block roadster anyday....Oh, and don't forget the M-22. :-)
usro...@my-dejanews.com
Edward Kim <ed...@havoc.gtf.org> wrote:
> Bill Bechtold <bbec...@smartcamber.com> wrote:
> > The new M3 will be a "world car". Meaning that we will get the same version
> > that the rest of the world gets. Rumor is that this includes over 350hp.
>
> Will the price stay the same?
BMW has said a Euro-engined M3 for the U.S. would go for close to $60K -
they don't think their target 33 y/o male childless buyer can afford that
splurge here- he'd rather have a $40K U.S-spec M3 and a $20K sport-ute for
the same money. In Europe ,with two car ownership less common/driver, the M3
is perceived as a 'mid-sized' sports car for families.Americans think it too
small as a sole family car. BMW believes their upcoming $75K M5 is a better
positioned "4-door sports car" for U.S.
P.J. Hartman
>just...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
><710csn$hfe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>
>>You know, I *wanted* to like the C5...
>
>Why is it the guys who whine the loudest about the perceived lack of
>perfection in something are the guys who are the most helpless when it comes
>to fixing it?
Amen.
I've had my C5 for 14 months now, and with the exception of the fuel pump
noise, which I knew about going into the purchase, and which has since
been rectified by GM at no cost to me, I've had no problems whatsoever.
My only gripe is that I have to share the car with my wife who has taken a
great liking to it as well.
--
P.J. Hartman har...@tconl.com
Corvette, Talon, MGB, ZX-11, and Neon
http://www.tconl.com/~hartman
P.J. Hartman
>It has been said before and it will be said again. GM's customers are its
>stock holders and not its car buyers. If you weren't buying a Corvette
>would you be buying a GM?
Bart, as I've said before there's only one GM product that interests me --
the Corvette. If not for this car, I'd be steering far clear of GM.
John Miles
>
> I have heard this problem with some manual transaxles. Assuming the
> noise your hear is at idle, it is caused by a no-load condition where
> the gearsets, syncros, and shift forks cause the noise. When you
> consider the low viscosity oil used in many transmissions today, this
> adds to the noise. I am not sure if there is a fix, it may be a
> normal condition. Of course one could opt for an automatic trans.
>
Uh huh. It doesn't happen in my '92 968 or my '77 308GTB. Why does it
happen in a brand-new C5? This gearbox-rattle business is reminiscent
of the first few C5's going out the door with windows that flap in their
frames at 100+ MPH. Do you mean to tell me that nobody at GM took this
car over 100 MPH on a lonely stretch of road before shipping it to the
dealers?
To paraphrase Voltaire: GM will not make a great car until the last
bean-counter is strangled with the entrails of the last UAW boss.
I wish that weren't the case -- my 968 is getting a little long in the
tooth and I'd like to consider a C5 as a potential replacement. But
from what I've read in this thread, and seen firsthand on the part of C5
owners I know, it sounds like just a faster, shinier version of the '89
Firebird that I left parked at the Porsche dealer seven years ago. :-(
-- jm
------------------------------------------------------
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------
Siddiq
first *introduced* to the market were fine cars, 86 and 90, IIRC.
--
video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor--Ovid
chris
owning a Corvette is a emotional, soulful thing. I mean it IS a
Corvette right?
On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:56:04 GMT, just...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In article <3634D5FC...@isource.net>,
> Bill Sanders <i...@isource.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't understand one guy said his 6-speed rattled? well you didn't
>> hear it in the test drive you took? I mean come on you all need to get a
>> grip! Out off what 32,000 build of 98 I think it is like the whole
>> population of Corvettes are bad?
>
>Actually, a very large percentage of the M6's *do* have the rattle. I
>think your chance of getting one that doesn't is pretty slim. And I'm the
>sort of person who would never consider an automatic tranny in a car like
>a Vette.
>
>I guess what really gets my goat is not so much the rattle itself, but
>GM's attitude: "Hey, just live with it".
>
>> if you all hate your Vettes
>
>There's a big difference between hating Vettes and wanting them to get
>better so I can buy one! I *love* Vettes. That's why it's so difficult
>for me to be forced into considering other automobiles. I admit the M3 is
>growing on me, but it will never be *quite* the emotional favorite that
>the Vette is, not to mention that I can't get my hands on a real Euro-spec
>one here in the states.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
-Chris
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts aquire speed,
The hands develope shaking,
The shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
H101
>bean-counter is strangled with the entrails of the last UAW boss.
>
>I wish that weren't the case -- my 968 is getting a little long in the
>tooth and I'd like to consider a C5 as a potential replacement. But
>from what I've read in this thread, and seen firsthand on the part of C5
>owners I know, it sounds like just a faster, shinier version of the '89
>Firebird that I left parked at the Porsche dealer seven years ago. :-(
>
>-- jm
It is really too bad that this group is dominated by those who have had
problems. There certainly are a bunch of us who have had a great experience
with the C5. This is the most trouble-free car I've ever owned. I only have
9,200 miles on it and it is only 8 months old, and it has not been back to the
dealer 'cept for two oil changes..... so, I could live to regret my words...
but, so far, all I can say is that it is a great car and I am having a blast
with it.
Billt
Peter Zangl
in Germany. This is the same price as for an M3 and a
little bit more than a S4.
Peter Zangl
p-z...@ti.com
Mike Schriber
difference between American, Japanesse and European cars. This is
according to the standard quality surveys such as J.D. Power.
All manufacturers make products that break. If BMW made perfect cars
they would not need to offer a warranty (or they would have a lifetime
warranty).
I've said it before and I'll say it again: People that don't have a
problem with their product are not going to post just to say
everything is great. I haven't seen a "Hey! My XXXX is working
perfectly. What do you guys think I should do?" post in a long, long
time.
I too wonder why someone who hates the C5 would spend time reading
messages on the Corvette news group. Some of the posts really make me
wonder. I bet a lot of these people will be waiting for the killer
Euro M3 or reinvention of the Supra Turbo for a long, long time. I'd
even venture to say that most of them may just like shooting their
mouth off because they don't have $40,000 to spend on a car. It's
called "I want to sound like a big shot on the Internet" syndrome.
You know; "Well, I wouldn't touch the C5. I'd go for the M3/911/Supra
Turbo instead". What they don't tell you is that they now drive a '95
Escort and they have no hope of buying ANY of these cars.
Let them talk. We'll enjoy the things we work for.
Mike
--
Mike Schriber
schr...@hotchip.com
http://www.hotchip.com/schriber
619-597-0078
John Miles
>
> You know, statisticly speaking, there is less than 1% quality
> difference between American, Japanesse and European cars. This is
> according to the standard quality surveys such as J.D. Power.
>
The problem is, Mike, there is more to quality than just "not breaking."
Until you understand that, and until General Motors understands that,
those surveys aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
Dad
My C5 has been flawless.
The dealer has been the same. What else can I say. 1 year old and 11,000
mile at an average of 26.7 miles to the gallon.
David
Black/Black '98 C5
My 8th Corvette in 41 years
John T. Horner
Ms.Goodwrench wrote in message <36348C...@msmisp.com>...
>This may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but my late uncle who
>was a new & used car dealer for 30-odd years always lectured us "you
>never buy a new model - wait till it's been on the market a couple of
>years".
This is exactly the problem the lemon laws are designed to address.
http://www.autosafety.org/ can give you links to information and lawyers
pertinent to your state.
If your new car needs an unreasonable number of repairs during the first
year of ownership, make the manufacturer buy it back. I'm convinced that if
at least 50% of the people who got stuck with lemons took the time to force
the buybacks, we would stop seeing new model lemons being released to the
unsuspecting customers.
John H.
John T. Horner
Art wrote in message <3633dd4c...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>This is why I am doing a reliability survey. Do us all a favor and
>get your message to the right people at General Motors. These
>problems will not be corrected unless Corvette owners give notice.
>
>
You don't really think General Motors isn't aware of the problems, do you?
Are you really that naive?
They have all the data right their in their warranty claims processing
system.
I wonder how many lemon law buybacks they have had to do.
John
Bill Bechtold
usro...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> BMW has said a Euro-engined M3 for the U.S. would go for close to $60K -
> they don't think their target 33 y/o male childless buyer can afford that
> splurge here- he'd rather have a $40K U.S-spec M3 and a $20K sport-ute for
> the same money.
Yes, this is what BMW NA used as their sales pitch for the US version of the E36
M3. But, this is NOT the case with the new E46 M3. I seriously doubt that the car
will cost $60K. I do expect a price increase, but probably more like 20% over the
current cost. It is a fact that the next M3 is a "world car", so there is no such
thing as E46 US-spec M3. They will all run the the same engine.
> In Europe ,with two car ownership less common/driver, the M3
> is perceived as a 'mid-sized' sports car for families.Americans think it too
> small as a sole family car. BMW believes their upcoming $75K M5 is a better
> positioned "4-door sports car" for U.S.
This is somewhat true. BMW has decided to not produce the M3 sedan with the new E46
design. Supposedly it has to do with rear wheel clearance, but the debut of the new
M5 probably has something to do with it as well. Of course, there is a rumor that
the E46 M3 touring (station wagon) will be produced (yet no standard sedan.) I
suppose we will have to wait and see. They also made an E34 M5 touring, but it was
never sold in the US.
Randy Davis
|aluminum 345hp V-8, rear-mounted Borg-Warner 6-speed transmission,
|hydro-formed frame-rails, a chassis with more rigidity than even 4-door
|Benzs, 50/50 weight distribution, precise handling from 17"/18" tires, a
|.29cd, and enough room for golf clubs and luggage. It is a world-class
|sports car from Detroit. The performance envelope can't be touched by
|anything less than twice it's cost.
Uh, try again. You were doing OK until you let your personal bias color
your last statement. In my personal experience, the "performance envelope"
of the C5 vette is indeed exceeded by both the original RT/10 Viper, as well
as the more powerful post-1996 RT/10 and GTS Vipers, in all aspects of
performance, and the final cost isn't even double.
Otherwise, you are generally correct - the C5 vette is an extremely nice
performance package, the second best one offered from a U.S. manufacturer,
and one of the best bang-for-the-buck performance rides out there. Just
don't let your loyalty to the car blind you...
Randy Davis
(to email, replace nospam with randy)
The Ennui Society
just...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> So I've decided to hang in there for a while. If BMW-NA ever gets off it's
> ass and gives us a Euro-spec M3, that'll be my next car, I think.
> Corvette-levels of performance, even better-than-corvette handling, in a
> sedan with a back seat! Otherwise, it's probably going to be a Supra-TT.
Why isn't BMW of North America importing the European specification, or
correctly termed ECE specification, M3?
1. The 321-horsepower M-type motor is very expensive to build and to maintain.
BMW wants to sell more of M3 at "better" price;
so it must cut corners one way or other.
2. US Congress authorised NHTSA to determine its moronic automotive safety
standards in the 1960s and to follow the whims of the administrators'
glorified egos. In addition, NHTSA prohibits manufacturers and importers from
selling the non-US DOT (namely ECE specification) models. The models for the
US market must bear SAE DOT, otherwise you can forget it or the US Customs can
keep it for itself.
3. EPA must sniff each combination of motor and gear box whether it be manual
or automatic gear box. No wonder we have very limited number of motor and gear
box combinations in the US market.
4. The cost of homologation is reputed to be $10 million per model. Europa,
Inc. of Santa Fe, New Mexico spent that amount to homologate and certify
Mercedes-Benz Geländerwagens. No wonder; the Geländerwagens cost $110.000,— a
piece! It is not cost-effective to homologate such a small number of units.
5. The Americans are either too lazy and too apolitical to kick the senators
and representatives to hold NHTSA accountable for its antedilevian rules. We
are waiting for you lot to pester the senators and representatives to
legislate away NHTSA and become the full-fledged signatory member of ECE (the
automotive safety standard that is compulsory in many countries).
How about it? Let's introduce the bill in the Congress to kill NHTSA?
Regards,
Oliver
Andy Chi
> Well, if you can remove and tear apart the tranny and fix the M6 rattle,
> you're in a different class than I am as a mechanic. But I don't think
> that my relative lack of skill here should mean I either can't own a
> vette, or have to live with these sorts of problems. The M3's tranny
> doesn't rattle.
Just so you know, eventho the M3 tranny doesn't rattle, it can be mis-shifted.
As in, 5th to 2nd instead of 5th to 4th. Keep that in mind and don't force the
shifter and you'll be fine.
--
Andy
86 300ZX NA, gone but not forgotten.
97 M3/4 black/black, sold.
98 M3 black/black, waiting to be sharked.
Bill Sanders
and I test drove the 6-speed in Dec. and it was smooth as silk but on reading,
and asking hubby there is going to be a rattle so exscuse me!!! But seems he
made it a problem!
We traveled all over the Dallas area and there were no 6speeds to be had this
was in July! and all the dealers had were Auto. I would of loved to have had an
6speed but my other car gave out and I didn't want to waite and the Auto kicks
ass just as much so go forth and rattle! And find a machanic who can explain
the rattles cause guy I would not rest until I could find out if it is normal
or a problem!
Scherrie
Shinozuka
but when the 99 was delivered, i was NOT dissapointed!!
-rei
bar...@nospam.giganews.com wrote:
> In alt.autos.corvette Bill Sanders <i...@isource.net> wrote:
> : I think if you went across the board alot of models have problems. What
> : I don't understand one guy said his 6-speed rattled? well you didn't
> : hear it in the test drive you took? I mean come on you all need to get a
> Test drive? I bought my C5 in May 1997. I bought it SITE UNSEAN. No dealer
> had a model in the showroom.
>
> Jonah
>
> --
> Jonah Barron Yokubaitis
> http://www.texas.net <--- The ISP
> http://www.giganews.com <--- News Outsourcing
outthere@leftfield
<rha...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>The "ownership experiance" as the marketers say was a nightmare. Virtually
>every component on the car failed: steering, brakes, belt, ac. alternator,
>mysterious drivability problems, seats that instantly wore through, and
>electronics such as VATS and airbags were never ever repaired and even rust
>flakes in the paint. 3 years, 4 alternators multiple batteries and an AC
>system with 15 pounds of freon led to an experiance so bad that one of the
>dealers provided gratis rental cars rather than incur the ire of my
>secretary. The wild card in the Corvette quality fiasco seems usually to be
>the dealer. The two I tried were incompetent and indifferent and were
>responsible for the aforementioned freon system and even , managed to
>install
>a tire backwards after fixing a puncture that occurred at their facilities.
>The rest of the story ends up with me buying brand V in 1993. Crappy radio,
>worse top,
>similar less than super star dealers but the car is simple and trouble free.
Jeezes. After all that, you go back to GM for some more punishment.
I guess that explains why they are still in business - idiots like
you just keep giving them your money, even after they've shit on you.
outthere@leftfield
> As for the Supra, I can vouch for the C5's superiority
>first-hand. I mean total driving experience, not just 0-to-whatever time.
Yuck. That's hard to believe. 'Course, if it's in the shop half the
time, the driving experience had BETTER be good.
By the way, does the C% use the same crap controls as cheaper GM
products? Like the HORRIBLE turn-signal lever, which C&D recently
described as feeling like a breaking wine-glass stem.
outthere@leftfield
>Test drive? I bought my C5 in May 1997. I bought it SITE UNSEAN. No dealer
>had a model in the showroom. The 6speed rattle is not a fairy tail, it
>exists on the 6speed C5s. Just because you have an automatic, does not
>mean the 6speed manual rattle does not exist. I refuse to drive the Auto
>vette (my preference).
Well, Buddy, buying a GM product is risky enough. Buying one of the
first of a brand-new model to roll-off the assembly line is just plain
stupid. My opinion.
George Kyle
> Turbo instead". What they don't tell you is that they now drive a '95
> Escort and they have no hope of buying ANY of these cars.
> Mike Schriber
> schr...@hotchip.com
> http://www.hotchip.com/schriber
> 619-597-0078
HEY! I drive a '94 Escort when it rains or snows! You disrespecting my
puddle jumper?
--
-George
'84 Z51 383
<-Remove DIESPAMER for replies->
Mike Schriber
Hell, I'm driving a '87 Suburban for now until the C5 shows up!
Mike
George Kyle <geo...@DIESPAMER.digidynamics.com> wrote:
--
Greg Nowik
> buddy of mine bought a 98 some time back. Looks *gorgeous*! Silver
> metalic, black interior, 6-spd, couldn't be a sexier looking car if it
> tried. But I can't even remember all the problems he's had with it so
> far. Leaking windows. Rattles. Squeeks. To the dealer's credit they
> fixed a number of them, but not all. There's some sort of transmission
> rattle that he's had no luck getting fixed. "That's normal", they tell
> him. It sounds like a bunch of marbles in a coffee can. Can you imagine
> buying a $40,000+ M3 or Supra and having BMW or Toyota tell you "Sure, it
> rattles like a child's toy, but that's normal"?? So why should it be
> tolerated in a $40,000 car from GM? Then there's the oil leak, and the
> sqeaky clutch pedal. Oh, and the paper-thin seats that wore through in a
> matter of months. (To their credit, GM replaced this too with no hassle
> whatsoever, but still.... will the next one be any better? Or the next?
> What about when the car goes out of warrantee?)
There was an article comparing Vette and one of Porche's beauties in one of
'car and driver' or 'road and track' magazines. I am subscriber to both so I
do not remember which one exactly. But anyway, I remember it was stated
clearly that at high speeds new vette's windows were rattling. Porche's
windows did not even whisper.
Greg Nowik
> that the rest of the world gets. Rumor is that this includes over 350hp.
I love european M3, but there's one thing that bothers me. Since speed
(according to my physics professor) depends on horsepower and acceleration
depends on torque there is not much use of 350 hp with electronic speed limiter.
There is of course advantage of having more torque. Just think that I was able
to push my '87 325 with 2.7 liter in-line 6 to 127MHP which had only 120 HP at
4,250 RPM. Just think what European version of M3 with 350+ hp vanos (ala vtec)
without speed limiter could do?! Why do we Americans do not have exposure to
such splendid ENGINEering?
Cw
Greg Nowik wrote in message <364C9CC8...@megsinet.net>...
Just think that I was able
>to push my '87 325 with 2.7 liter in-line 6 to 127MHP which had only 120 HP
at
>4,250 RPM. Just think what European version of M3 with 350+ hp vanos (ala
vtec)
>without speed limiter could do?! Why do we Americans do not have exposure
to
>such splendid ENGINEering?
>
We do. My stock '88GT Fiero with a 2.8 liter V-6 would push 135 MPH. Then
us Americans ENGINEered it splendidly with an LT-1. Voila, acceleration and
speed.
Charles Williams
'97 White Coupe 6 - Speed & (LT-1 powered Fiero)
Nizar Dahbar
> There was an article comparing Vette and one of Porche's beauties in one of
> 'car and driver' or 'road and track' magazines. I am subscriber to both so I
> do not remember which one exactly. But anyway, I remember it was stated
> clearly that at high speeds new vette's windows were rattling. Porche's
> windows did not even whisper.
Let's see...Porsche...Corvette...Porsche...Corvette...
PORSCHE!...Corvette...Gee, I wonder. "No, really dammit, you can expect
pretty much the same shit, yeahya, pretty much!".