Crossover Guide Update
Keith Gow
http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
- Coloured background to make the links stand out and, more
importantly, the shows that aren't linked seem more separate
- Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?)
- Added "Entertainment Tonight" as a link to "Chicago Hope" (they
aired an episode that was supposed to be an episode of ET, just as
"X-Files" had an episode that was supposed to be "Cops")
-- Keith Gow --
"I'm not going to let my favorite shows get crappy
because then I won't watch them anymore."
- Joss Whedon on Buffy, Angel and Firefly
RESchwalb
<< - Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?) >>
Not a link, but worth mentioning: in a first season ep (IIRC) of Six Feet
Under, David and Keith are watching Oz on their TV.
Robin
Ashley
Very nice,
very nice indeed.
The Beat still doesn't touch SVU though.
And I see you haven't weighed in on The Tonight Show yet.
ash
"I'm getting better, honest. In fact, from here on, you're going to see
a drastic distraction reduction. Drastic distraction reduction... try
saying that ten times fast."
-Buffy, "Homecoming"
PaulJ
>
> - Coloured background to make the links stand out and, more
> importantly, the shows that aren't linked seem more separate
> - Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?)
> - Added "Entertainment Tonight" as a link to "Chicago Hope" (they
> aired an episode that was supposed to be an episode of ET, just as
> "X-Files" had an episode that was supposed to be "Cops")
>
Fantastic, as ever. But, umm...
ET?
This differs from the fictional Tonight Show in Caroline in the City
and Larry Sanders how?
I ask merely for information...
Keith Gow
lyrical:
Well, The X-Files had an entire episode that was an episode of Cops -
nothing else, no view outside it was an episode of Cops. Same thing
with Chicago Hope - the entire hour was an ET special episode.
I'm starting to agree that if the fictional characters appear on the
Tonight Show you might be right, but that also gets out of hand. I'm
sure there are a lot more than Caroline in the City and then it opens
it up to a whole lot more shows.
Or maybe I'll just delete Cops and ET.
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow) wrote in message news:<3d589b58...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
>> http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
>>
>> - Coloured background to make the links stand out and, more
>> importantly, the shows that aren't linked seem more separate
>> - Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?)
>> - Added "Entertainment Tonight" as a link to "Chicago Hope" (they
>> aired an episode that was supposed to be an episode of ET, just as
>> "X-Files" had an episode that was supposed to be "Cops")
>>
>> -- Keith Gow --
>>
>> "I'm not going to let my favorite shows get crappy
>> because then I won't watch them anymore."
>> - Joss Whedon on Buffy, Angel and Firefly
>
>Very nice,
>
>very nice indeed.
>
>The Beat still doesn't touch SVU though.
>
Whoops. I've changed it in my version...
This means that X-F should touch SVU, too, though, right? I'm not sure
I'm prepated to do that! It would mean all Munches appearances have to
touch SVU.
>And I see you haven't weighed in on The Tonight Show yet.
>
Well, I will... Soon.
Ashley
> On 13 Aug 2002 06:47:58 -0700, acr...@nc.rr.com (Ashley) waxed
> lyrical:
>
> >kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow) wrote in message news:<3d589b58...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
> >> http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
> >>
> >
> >Very nice,
> >
> >very nice indeed.
> >
> >The Beat still doesn't touch SVU though.
> >
>
> Whoops. I've changed it in my version...
>
> This means that X-F should touch SVU, too, though, right? I'm not sure
> I'm prepated to do that! It would mean all Munches appearances have to
> touch SVU.
Not in my mind, The Beat should <only in my view> touch SVU because
Munch was n SVU when he crossed. he was Homicide when he crossed to
X-Files.
That's the difference in my mind.
>
> >And I see you haven't weighed in on The Tonight Show yet.
> >
>
> Well, I will... Soon.
I just found where you weighed in, by deciding not to play, no fun!
ash
"If you consider the multiple Jay Lenos"
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow) wrote in message news:<3d59d61e...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
>> On 13 Aug 2002 06:47:58 -0700, acr...@nc.rr.com (Ashley) waxed
>> lyrical:
>>
>> >kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow) wrote in message news:<3d589b58...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
>> >> http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
>> >>
><snip>
>> >
>> >Very nice,
>> >
>> >very nice indeed.
>> >
>> >The Beat still doesn't touch SVU though.
>> >
>>
>> Whoops. I've changed it in my version...
>>
>> This means that X-F should touch SVU, too, though, right? I'm not sure
>> I'm prepated to do that! It would mean all Munches appearances have to
>> touch SVU.
>
>Not in my mind, The Beat should <only in my view> touch SVU because
>Munch was n SVU when he crossed. he was Homicide when he crossed to
>X-Files.
>That's the difference in my mind.
>
Well, that makes some sense. And Munch is unique in this respect...
oh, hang on, there's Frasier who is/was a regular in two series. And
I've put Frasier next to Wings, even though that was when he was in
Cheers, right?
>>
>> >And I see you haven't weighed in on The Tonight Show yet.
>> >
>>
>> Well, I will... Soon.
>
>I just found where you weighed in, by deciding not to play, no fun!
>
The guy is just cameo guy to me. I've never seen a full episode of his
show, because it doesn't air here. So might eleven cents might not be
worth much - in fact, it's not because 11 Australian cents only buys
about 6 US cents. :-)
Ashley
> >> >>
> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >Very nice,
> >> >
> >> >very nice indeed.
> >> >
> >> >The Beat still doesn't touch SVU though.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Whoops. I've changed it in my version...
> >>
> >> This means that X-F should touch SVU, too, though, right? I'm not sure
> >> I'm prepated to do that! It would mean all Munches appearances have to
> >> touch SVU.
> >
> >Not in my mind, The Beat should <only in my view> touch SVU because
> >Munch was n SVU when he crossed. he was Homicide when he crossed to
> >X-Files.
> >That's the difference in my mind.
> >
>
> Well, that makes some sense. And Munch is unique in this respect...
> oh, hang on, there's Frasier who is/was a regular in two series. And
> I've put Frasier next to Wings, even though that was when he was in
> Cheers, right?
I checked the dates and it looks like the crossover occured during the
last season of Cheers so that would (in my mind) only be a crossover
with Cheers not Cheers and Fraiser. I thouhg tI remembered Fraiser
coming to the airport twice (once from Boston, once from Seattle) but it
only really happened once.
>
> >>
> >> >And I see you haven't weighed in on The Tonight Show yet.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Well, I will... Soon.
> >
> >I just found where you weighed in, by deciding not to play, no fun!
> >
>
> The guy is just cameo guy to me. I've never seen a full episode of his
> show, because it doesn't air here. So might eleven cents might not be
> worth much - in fact, it's not because 11 Australian cents only buys
> about 6 US cents. :-)
Paul and I certianly put in our 11 cents and more and ended up with
three Jay Lenos: Jay leno, Jay Leno, and Jay Leno.
But I do think your solution is the easiest, just take COPS and ET off.
ash
"Our lives are different than other people's."
-Oz, "Graduation Day 1
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>> >> >kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow) wrote
>> >> >> http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
>> >> >>
>> ><snip>
>> >> >
>> >> >Very nice,
>> >> >
>> >> >very nice indeed.
>> >> >
>> >> >The Beat still doesn't touch SVU though.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Whoops. I've changed it in my version...
>> >>
>> >> This means that X-F should touch SVU, too, though, right? I'm not sure
>> >> I'm prepated to do that! It would mean all Munches appearances have to
>> >> touch SVU.
>> >
>> >Not in my mind, The Beat should <only in my view> touch SVU because
>> >Munch was n SVU when he crossed. he was Homicide when he crossed to
>> >X-Files.
>> >That's the difference in my mind.
>> >
>>
>> Well, that makes some sense. And Munch is unique in this respect...
>> oh, hang on, there's Frasier who is/was a regular in two series. And
>> I've put Frasier next to Wings, even though that was when he was in
>> Cheers, right?
>
>I checked the dates and it looks like the crossover occured during the
>last season of Cheers so that would (in my mind) only be a crossover
>with Cheers not Cheers and Fraiser. I thouhg tI remembered Fraiser
>coming to the airport twice (once from Boston, once from Seattle) but it
>only really happened once.
>
Okay. That changes then.
>>
>> The guy is just cameo guy to me. I've never seen a full episode of his
>> show, because it doesn't air here. So might eleven cents might not be
>> worth much - in fact, it's not because 11 Australian cents only buys
>> about 6 US cents. :-)
>
>Paul and I certianly put in our 11 cents and more and ended up with
>three Jay Lenos: Jay leno, Jay Leno, and Jay Leno.
That's about 3 too many ;-)
>But I do think your solution is the easiest, just take COPS and ET off.
>
Yep.
>"Our lives are different than other people's."
> -Oz, "Graduation Day 1
"I miss Oz. He'd get it. He wouldn't say anything, but he'd get it."
- Xander, I Was Made To Love You
Ashley Crowe
<snip>
> >> >Not in my mind, The Beat should <only in my view> touch SVU because
> >> >Munch was n SVU when he crossed. he was Homicide when he
> >> >crossed to X-Files.That's the difference in my mind.
> >>
> >> Well, that makes some sense. And Munch is unique in this respect...
> >> oh, hang on, there's Frasier who is/was a regular in two series. And
> >> I've put Frasier next to Wings, even though that was when he was in
> >> Cheers, right?
> >
> >I checked the dates and it looks like the crossover occured during the
> >last season of Cheers so that would (in my mind) only be a crossover
> >with Cheers not Cheers and Fraiser. I thouhg tI remembered Fraiser
> >coming to the airport twice (once from Boston, once from Seattle) but it
> >only really happened once.
>
> Okay. That changes then.
Whew! the whole crossover chart was very fun. Thanks for starting all that.
> >> The guy is just cameo guy to me. I've never seen a full episode of his
> >> show, because it doesn't air here. So might eleven cents might not be
> >> worth much - in fact, it's not because 11 Australian cents only buys
> >> about 6 US cents. :-)
> >
> >Paul and I certianly put in our 11 cents and more and ended up with
> >three Jay Lenos: Jay leno, Jay Leno, and Jay Leno.
>
> That's about 3 too many ;-)
There I agree
>
> >But I do think your solution is the easiest, just take COPS and ET off.
> >
>
> Yep.
>
> >"Our lives are different than other people's."
> > -Oz, "Graduation Day 1
>
> "I miss Oz. He'd get it. He wouldn't say anything, but he'd get it."
> - Xander, I Was Made To Love You
I miss Oz too, I just don't know how he'd fit it they brought him back.
ash
"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
-Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>I checked the dates and it looks like the crossover occured during the
>last season of Cheers so that would (in my mind) only be a crossover
>with Cheers not Cheers and Fraiser. I thouhg tI remembered Fraiser
>coming to the airport twice (once from Boston, once from Seattle) but it
>only really happened once.
>
Also, if The Beat crossover came after Munch was on SVU, then it
shouldn't connect to HLOTS. Unless it became between the series and
The Movie?
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>Whew! the whole crossover chart was very fun. Thanks for starting all that.
>
It was fun. I've made a couple of small changes and it has been
updated. Most of the shows are gone now or in the process of going.
It'll be interesting to see if any more links are made to that
fictional mega-verse.
>> >"Our lives are different than other people's."
>> > -Oz, "Graduation Day 1
>>
>> "I miss Oz. He'd get it. He wouldn't say anything, but he'd get it."
>> - Xander, I Was Made To Love You
>
>I miss Oz too, I just don't know how he'd fit it they brought him back.
>
Well, you see, there's this girl called Willow... No, no. Seriously. I
agree. But if this season is the last and with the rumoured return of
nearly every recurring character *ever*, I'd be disappointed not to
see him one last time.
I think they could work in a one-off episode for him, but probably not
more than one.
>"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
>mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
>hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
> -Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
"I mean we're just gettin' started, I got all kinds of big party
plans." - Willow, "Two to Go"
-- Keith Gow --
"Come on! This is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man,
and now I get to be the Slayer." - Willow, "Two to Go"
Ashley Crowe
> On 15 Aug 2002 09:18:18 -0700, acr...@nc.rr.com (Ashley) waxed
> lyrical:
> >I checked the dates and it looks like the crossover occured during the
> >last season of Cheers so that would (in my mind) only be a crossover
> >with Cheers not Cheers and Fraiser. I thouhg tI remembered Fraiser
> >coming to the airport twice (once from Boston, once from Seattle) but it
> >only really happened once.
> >
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:23:48 GMT, kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow)
wrote:
> Also, if The Beat crossover came after Munch was on SVU, then it
> shouldn't connect to HLOTS. Unless it became between the series and
> The Movie?
The Beat did occur between the series and the movie so it looks like it should
connect with both Homicide and SVU (you are correct).
ash
"TV is a good thing. Bright colors. Music. Tiny little people."
-Buffy, "Beer Bad"
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>
>> On 15 Aug 2002 09:18:18 -0700, acr...@nc.rr.com (Ashley) waxed
>> lyrical:
>> >I checked the dates and it looks like the crossover occured during the
>> >last season of Cheers so that would (in my mind) only be a crossover
>> >with Cheers not Cheers and Fraiser. I thouhg tI remembered Fraiser
>> >coming to the airport twice (once from Boston, once from Seattle) but it
>> >only really happened once.
>> >
>
>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:23:48 GMT, kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow)
>wrote:
>> Also, if The Beat crossover came after Munch was on SVU, then it
>> shouldn't connect to HLOTS. Unless it became between the series and
>> The Movie?
>
>The Beat did occur between the series and the movie so it looks like it should
>connect with both Homicide and SVU (you are correct).
>
Okay. Back it goes...
>"TV is a good thing. Bright colors. Music. Tiny little people."
> -Buffy, "Beer Bad"
>
"Beer Bad" is a terribly underrated episode. Just thought I'd provoke
a little controversy.
Ashley Crowe
> >Whew! the whole crossover chart was very fun. Thanks for starting all that.
>
> It was fun. I've made a couple of small changes and it has been
> updated. Most of the shows are gone now or in the process of going.
> It'll be interesting to see if any more links are made to that
> fictional mega-verse.
I'm sure it will continue to expand. The crossover potienal is endless.
> >> >"Our lives are different than other people's."
> >> > -Oz, "Graduation Day 1
> >>
> >> "I miss Oz. He'd get it. He wouldn't say anything, but he'd get it."
> >> - Xander, I Was Made To Love You
> >
> >I miss Oz too, I just don't know how he'd fit it they brought him back.
>
> Well, you see, there's this girl called Willow... No, no. Seriously. I
> agree. But if this season is the last and with the rumoured return of
> nearly every recurring character *ever*, I'd be disappointed not to
> see him one last time.
This season might not be the last. There's been no offical word on that yet.
> I think they could work in a one-off episode for him, but probably not
> more than one.
They could. Appartently ME and Seth Green are speaking again so the only
problems are finding time when he can shoot and a good one-off plot line.
> >"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
> >mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
> >hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
> > -Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
>
> "I mean we're just gettin' started, I got all kinds of big party
> plans." - Willow, "Two to Go"
"I dunno. I think it might be time to put a moratorium on parties in my honor.
They tend to go badly. Monsters crash. People die."
-Buffy, "Helpless"
free association quoting fun.
ash
"This is a time of celebration. So sit still and be quiet. Spit out that
gum." -Snyder, "Graduation Day 2"
Ashley Crowe
I quoted:
> >"TV is a good thing. Bright colors. Music. Tiny little people."
> > -Buffy, "Beer Bad"
and Keith said:
> "Beer Bad" is a terribly underrated episode. Just thought I'd provoke
> a little controversy.
oh I agree and it certianly has it's share of great lines.
I mean how can you not like an episode with these gems:
"This will give them some time to ponder the geopolitical ramifications
of being mean to me."
-Xander
"Well, excuse me, Mr. 'I spent the 60's in an electric- kool-aid
funky-Satan groove.'" "It was the early 70's, and you should know
better."
-Xander and Giles
"I'm not sure I need to explain my actions here. But if that's what you
want..." "Yes. Followed by an admission of undeniable guilt, but go on."
-Parker and Willow
"Well, even if I had a pretend cigarette, I couldn't tell you my pretend
problems. Real ones have clogged up my head space."
-Buffy
and the one quoted above.
I have to be in the right mood to watch Beer Bad, but I like it. Plus doesn't Buffy
boink Parker over the head? always a plus.
ash
"You have no shame." "Oh, please. Like shame is something to be proud
of?" -Xander and Cordelia, "Earshot
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>> >
>> >I miss Oz too, I just don't know how he'd fit it they brought him back.
>>
>> Well, you see, there's this girl called Willow... No, no. Seriously. I
>> agree. But if this season is the last and with the rumoured return of
>> nearly every recurring character *ever*, I'd be disappointed not to
>> see him one last time.
>
>This season might not be the last. There's been no offical word on that yet.
>
I know. I'm just concerned if they go on too long...
Season 7 has potential - great potential - from what I've heard. But I
fear that every year past this one has a great weight on it. Not many
shows last past their seventh year, let alone last well.
>> I think they could work in a one-off episode for him, but probably not
>> more than one.
>
>They could. Appartently ME and Seth Green are speaking again so the only
>problems are finding time when he can shoot and a good one-off plot line.
>
Apparently Joss and Marti and Seth have recorded a commentary for "New
Moon Rising" for the Region 1 Season 4 DVDs. Bastards - I am quite
happy with the Region 4 version that doesn't have it.
>> >"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
>> >mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
>> >hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
>> > -Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
>>
>> "I mean we're just gettin' started, I got all kinds of big party
>> plans." - Willow, "Two to Go"
>
>"I dunno. I think it might be time to put a moratorium on parties in my honor.
>They tend to go badly. Monsters crash. People die."
> -Buffy, "Helpless"
>
"You should be at a good old-fashioned college, with keg parties and
boys. Not here, with Hellmouths and vampires." - Joyce
"Not really seeing a huge distinction there..." - Buffy, "Lover's
Walk"
-- Keith Gow --
"Come on! This is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man,
and now I get to be the Slayer." - Willow, "Two to Go"
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
><snip>
>
>I quoted:
>> >"TV is a good thing. Bright colors. Music. Tiny little people."
>> > -Buffy, "Beer Bad"
>
>and Keith said:
>> "Beer Bad" is a terribly underrated episode. Just thought I'd provoke
>> a little controversy.
>
>oh I agree and it certianly has it's share of great lines.
>
>I mean how can you not like an episode with these gems:
>"This will give them some time to ponder the geopolitical ramifications
>of being mean to me."
> -Xander
>"Well, excuse me, Mr. 'I spent the 60's in an electric- kool-aid
>funky-Satan groove.'" "It was the early 70's, and you should know
>better."
> -Xander and Giles
>"I'm not sure I need to explain my actions here. But if that's what you
>want..." "Yes. Followed by an admission of undeniable guilt, but go on."
> -Parker and Willow
"You just want to jump on my bones." - Willow
>I have to be in the right mood to watch Beer Bad, but I like it. Plus doesn't Buffy
>boink Parker over the head? always a plus.
>
She does it twice, which is what I love about the episode.
Ashley Crowe
Ashley Crowe <acr...@nc.rr.com> waxed lyrical:
> >> >I miss Oz too, I just don't know how he'd fit it they brought him back.
> >>
> >> Well, you see, there's this girl called Willow... No, no. Seriously. I
> >> agree. But if this season is the last and with the rumoured return of
> >> nearly every recurring character *ever*, I'd be disappointed not to
> >> see him one last time.
> >
> >This season might not be the last. There's been no offical word on that yet.
>
> I know. I'm just concerned if they go on too long...
>
> Season 7 has potential - great potential - from what I've heard. But I
> fear that every year past this one has a great weight on it. Not many
> shows last past their seventh year, let alone last well.
I agree. I'd like this season to be the end.
> >> I think they could work in a one-off episode for him, but probably not
> >> more than one.
> >
> >They could. Appartently ME and Seth Green are speaking again so the only
> >problems are finding time when he can shoot and a good one-off plot line.
>
> Apparently Joss and Marti and Seth have recorded a commentary for "New
> Moon Rising" for the Region 1 Season 4 DVDs. Bastards - I am quite
> happy with the Region 4 version that doesn't have it.
I'm sure you are. That means you have Season 3 on DVD already two. lucky
lucky man. Faith goodness, Willow and Tara goodness all on crisp clean DVD.
I'm ready from Season 3 to come out of DVD here. mmm Faith...
> >> >"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
> >> >mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
> >> >hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
> >> > -Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
> >>
> >> "I mean we're just gettin' started, I got all kinds of big party
> >> plans." - Willow, "Two to Go"
> >
> >"I dunno. I think it might be time to put a moratorium on parties in my honor.
> >They tend to go badly. Monsters crash. People die."
> > -Buffy, "Helpless"
>
> "You should be at a good old-fashioned college, with keg parties and
> boys. Not here, with Hellmouths and vampires." - Joyce
> "Not really seeing a huge distinction there..." - Buffy, "Lover's
> Walk"
"This is a time of celebration. So sit still and be quiet. Spit out that
gum." -Snyder, "Graduation Day 2"
ash
"Wait for Faith." "That could be hours. The girl makes Godot look
punctual." -Wesley and Buffy, "Enemies"
Tina S
Gow) wrote:
>
>http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
>
>- Coloured background to make the links stand out and, more
>importantly, the shows that aren't linked seem more separate
>- Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?)
St. Elsewhere, right? The corporation that bought St. Eligius in one
of the later seasons takes over the prison in Oz and tries to
implement managed care there (with tragic results, of course). I'm
blanking on the name.
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
>> Apparently Joss and Marti and Seth have recorded a commentary for "New
>> Moon Rising" for the Region 1 Season 4 DVDs. Bastards - I am quite
>> happy with the Region 4 version that doesn't have it.
>
>I'm sure you are. That means you have Season 3 on DVD already two. lucky
>lucky man. Faith goodness, Willow and Tara goodness all on crisp clean DVD.
>I'm ready from Season 3 to come out of DVD here. mmm Faith...
>
Season 5 is out here in November with commentaries on Real Me, Fool
for Love, I was Made to Love You and The Body.
>> >> >"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
>> >> >mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
>> >> >hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
>> >> > -Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
>> >>
>> >> "I mean we're just gettin' started, I got all kinds of big party
>> >> plans." - Willow, "Two to Go"
>> >
>> >"I dunno. I think it might be time to put a moratorium on parties in my honor.
>> >They tend to go badly. Monsters crash. People die."
>> > -Buffy, "Helpless"
>>
>> "You should be at a good old-fashioned college, with keg parties and
>> boys. Not here, with Hellmouths and vampires." - Joyce
>> "Not really seeing a huge distinction there..." - Buffy, "Lover's
>> Walk"
>
>"This is a time of celebration. So sit still and be quiet. Spit out that
>gum." -Snyder, "Graduation Day 2"
>
"Sorry we couldn't do the big fancy. You kind of caught us with our
parties down." - Buffy
"That's all right. This is just the first premarital celebration.
We'll have lots more. With gifts!" - Anya, "All the Way"
-- Keith Gow --
"Come on! This is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man,
and now I get to be the Slayer." - Willow, "Two to Go"
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
Really? TVFan must know this!
And, yet, with all this talk of lesbians he seems to have
disappeared...
Martha K.
"Keith Gow" <kw...@web.solutions.net.au> wrote in message
news:3d60a13d...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 05:29:50 GMT, tsh...@deletesprynet.com (Tina S)
> waxed lyrical:
>
> >On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:38:35 GMT, kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith
> >Gow) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
> >>
> >>- Coloured background to make the links stand out and, more
> >>importantly, the shows that aren't linked seem more separate
> >>- Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?)
> >
> >St. Elsewhere, right? The corporation that bought St. Eligius in one
> >of the later seasons takes over the prison in Oz and tries to
> >implement managed care there (with tragic results, of course). I'm
> >blanking on the name.
Ecumena.
>
> Really? TVFan must know this!
>
> And, yet, with all this talk of lesbians he seems to have
> disappeared...
Some of my best friends are...
Martha K.
(doesn't watch Buffy, hasn't got a clue what we're talking about these days)
Ashley
> >>http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
> >>
> >>- Coloured background to make the links stand out and, more
> >>importantly, the shows that aren't linked seem more separate
> >>- Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?)
> >
> >St. Elsewhere, right? The corporation that bought St. Eligius in one
> >of the later seasons takes over the prison in Oz and tries to
> >implement managed care there (with tragic results, of course). I'm
> >blanking on the name.
>
> Really? TVFan must know this!
I check TV Tome and found this: Episode: The Truth and Nothing But...
"Oswald Maximum Security Penententiary is renamed Oswald State
Correctional Facility: Level Four. To cut costs, Devlin brings in the
Weigert Corporation to oversee medical matters." And from the notes:
"Weigert Corporation is presumably the same Weigert that took over St.
Eligius in the final year of "St. Elsewhere"."
The notes for that episode also mention that: "Miss Sally has become an
omnipresence in the Fontana multiverse, seen on television in both The
Beat and the wrap up movie for Homicide: Life on the Street." Someone
remembered that Miss Sally was in the movie (whch brought the
Homicide/Oz link) but the Oz/The Beat link is new.
>
> And, yet, with all this talk of lesbians he seems to have
> disappeared...
Yea really, where did he run off to?
ash
"In the end, you're always by yourself. You're all you've got. That's
the point" -Angelus, "Becoming II"
Ashley
> >> Apparently Joss and Marti and Seth have recorded a commentary for "New
> >> Moon Rising" for the Region 1 Season 4 DVDs. Bastards - I am quite
> >> happy with the Region 4 version that doesn't have it.
> >
> >lucky man. Faith goodness, Willow and Tara goodness all on crisp clean DVD.
> >I'm ready from Season 3 to come out of DVD here. mmm Faith...
>
> Season 5 is out here in November with commentaries on Real Me, Fool
> for Love, I was Made to Love You and The Body.
Sure, go ahead. Rub it in.
> >> >> >"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
> >> >> >mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
> >> >> >hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
> >> >> > -Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
> >> >>
> >> >> "I mean we're just gettin' started, I got all kinds of big party
> >> >> plans." - Willow, "Two to Go"
> >> >
> >> >"I dunno. I think it might be time to put a moratorium on parties in
> >> >my honor. They tend to go badly. Monsters crash. People die."
> >> > -Buffy, "Helpless"
> >>
> >> "You should be at a good old-fashioned college, with keg parties and
> >> boys. Not here, with Hellmouths and vampires." - Joyce
> >> "Not really seeing a huge distinction there..." - Buffy, "Lover's
> >> Walk"
> >
> >"This is a time of celebration. So sit still and be quiet. Spit out that
> >gum." -Snyder, "Graduation Day 2"
>
> "Sorry we couldn't do the big fancy. You kind of caught us with our
> parties down." - Buffy
> "That's all right. This is just the first premarital celebration.
> We'll have lots more. With gifts!" - Anya, "All the Way"
"We're having a party tonight." -Giles
"Looks like Mr. Caution Man, but the sound he makes is funny." -Xander
"Buffy's surprise party will go ahead as we planned. Except I won't be
wearing the little hat." -Giles
"But Buffy and Angel..." -Willow
"May well be in danger... as they have been before, and, I imagine, will
be again. One thing I've learned in my tenure here on the Hellmouth is
that there is no good time to relax. And Buffy's turning 17 just this
once, and she deserves a party." -Giles, "Surprise"
ash
"Whoa! Slow down, people. Summer is over. Be somber."
-Teacher, "Anne"
Ashley Crowe
Ashley Crowe <acr...@nc.rr.com> waxed lyrical:
> >> >I miss Oz too, I just don't know how he'd fit it they brought him back.
> >>
> >> Well, you see, there's this girl called Willow... No, no. Seriously. I
> >> agree. But if this season is the last and with the rumoured return of
> >> nearly every recurring character *ever*, I'd be disappointed not to
> >> see him one last time.
> >
> >This season might not be the last. There's been no offical word on that yet.
>
> I know. I'm just concerned if they go on too long...
>
> Season 7 has potential - great potential - from what I've heard. But I
> fear that every year past this one has a great weight on it. Not many
> shows last past their seventh year, let alone last well.
I agree. I'd like this season to be the end.
> >> I think they could work in a one-off episode for him, but probably not
> >> more than one.
> >
> >They could. Appartently ME and Seth Green are speaking again so the only
> >problems are finding time when he can shoot and a good one-off plot line.
>
> Apparently Joss and Marti and Seth have recorded a commentary for "New
> Moon Rising" for the Region 1 Season 4 DVDs. Bastards - I am quite
> happy with the Region 4 version that doesn't have it.
I'm sure you are. That means you have Season 3 on DVD already two. lucky
lucky man. Faith goodness, Willow and Tara goodness all on crisp clean DVD.
I'm ready from Season 3 to come out of DVD here. mmm Faith...
> >> >"Well, a gathering is brie, mellow song stylings. Shindig: dip, less
> >> >mellow song stylings, perhaps a large amount of malt beverage. And
> >> >hootenanny: well, it's chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny."
> >> > -Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
> >>
> >> "I mean we're just gettin' started, I got all kinds of big party
> >> plans." - Willow, "Two to Go"
> >
> >"I dunno. I think it might be time to put a moratorium on parties in my honor.
> >They tend to go badly. Monsters crash. People die."
> > -Buffy, "Helpless"
>
> "You should be at a good old-fashioned college, with keg parties and
> boys. Not here, with Hellmouths and vampires." - Joyce
> "Not really seeing a huge distinction there..." - Buffy, "Lover's
> Walk"
"This is a time of celebration. So sit still and be quiet. Spit out that
gum." -Snyder, "Graduation Day 2"
ash
"Wait for Faith." "That could be hours. The girl makes Godot look
punctual." -Wesley and Buffy, "Enemies"
>
Ashley Crowe
Diane
wrote:
<snip>
>> >>- Coloured background to make the links stand out and, more
>> >>importantly, the shows that aren't linked seem more separate
>> >>- Added "Oz" as a link to "Homicide" (Any shows linked to "Oz"?)
>> >
>> >St. Elsewhere, right? The corporation that bought St. Eligius in one
>> >of the later seasons takes over the prison in Oz and tries to
>> >implement managed care there (with tragic results, of course). I'm
>> >blanking on the name.
>
>Ecumena.
Which later got changed to Weigert. I think there was an HMO at the
time named Humana or somesuch that threatened to sue.
Diane
Patrick
A Google-cached page of the New York Daily News brings confirmation
from a well-placed source.
--Patrick
=========================================
From: New York Daily News |Arts and Lifestyle | Television |
Friday, June 29, 2001
Extra-Impressed Fontana Lauds Eagle-eyed Readers
In my most recent column relaying TV Extras, or in-jokes, caught by
Daily News readers, some of them noted sly references buried deep
within the shows of Tom Fontana — "St. Elsewhere" and "Oz" included.
One of the readers most surprised by the identification of those
Extras was ... Tom Fontana.
"I thought that was amazing," he says.
One Extra noted last time, by Kris Calabrese of Brooklyn, was that the
name of the HMO running (and ruining) "St. Elsewhere" in its final
season was changed from Ecumena to the Weigert Corporation — and that
Weigert, more than a decade later, also was the name of the
institution performing experiments on the inmates of "Oz."
Calabrese also noted in her e-mail that the children's show watched
avidly by the inmates of "Oz," featuring the buxom character known as
Ms. Sally, also was seen in the background on a TV in Fontana's UPN
series "The Beat."
"That's right," Fontana says. "And it's also in 'Homicide: The
Movie.'"
"That's the next sentence in her letter," I tell him.
"Give me her address," he says. "I'll send her something."
Fontana got a kick out of a recent Extra, from Sean Dougherty of
Clifton, N.J., prompted by my description of the "St. Elsewhere"
finale as revealing the entire series to be nothing more, or less,
than the mental meanderings of an autistic boy, the character of Tommy
Westphall.
Dougherty, recalling that Alfre Woodard's character from "St.
Elsewhere" also turned up once on "Homicide: Life on the Street,"
asked, "Did Tom Fontana really write a character who only existed as a
daydream into 'Homicide'? Does that mean that 'Homicide' ... was also
a daydream?"
"Here's the thing," Fontana says. "It's my personal plot that all of
television exists in the mind of Tommy Westphall, to this day. So
'Homicide' is still the musings; it's just that instead of looking at
a hospital snow globe," as he did in the "St. Elsewhere" finale, "now
he's looking at the police headquarters building snow globe.
"And because," Fontana adds, "we did the 'Cheers' crossover" — a few
"St. Elsewhere" characters visited the Boston bar — "it would make all
of 'Cheers,' which would then make all of 'Frasier,' also in the mind
of Tommy Westphall. It only gets bigger and bigger and bigger."
Another conspiracy Fontana supports, with Richard Belzer, is placing
Belzer's character of Munch on as many shows as possible. So far, the
wry "Homicide" detective has appeared on "The Beat," "Law & Order,"
"Law & Order: Special Victims Unit," "The X-Files" and, in cartoon
form, "The Simpsons."
"The trickiest one has been trying to figure out how to get him on
'Oz,' because he is now an NYPD cop, and 'Oz' is not set in any
specific state," Fontana says.
"I almost had him be a contestant on 'Up Your Ante,'" another
show-within-a-show watched by the "Oz" inmates, "but he was away the
day we were shooting it. But maybe he'll be on Ms. Sally."
La Reina
>A Google-cached page of the New York Daily News brings confirmation
>from a well-placed source.
>
>--Patrick
>
>=========================================
>
>From: New York Daily News |Arts and Lifestyle | Television |
>Friday, June 29, 2001
>
>Extra-Impressed Fontana Lauds Eagle-eyed Readers
Keith, Ash, you guys ought to send Fontana a framed printout of your Homicide
crossover spreadsheet.
Reina De Paréntesis
Unhurried1
>
> Martha K.
> (doesn't watch Buffy, hasn't got a clue what we're talking about these days)
Amen, sister. I'm trying to catch up after being away since Thursday,
and I know I'm not alone in making the following request. Could
anyone wishing to turn yet another thread into a Buffy discussion
*pretty please with sugar on it* re-label the subject header?
--
Unhurried1
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
>> Season 5 is out here in November with commentaries on Real Me, Fool
>> for Love, I was Made to Love You and The Body.
>
>Sure, go ahead. Rub it in.
>
That was a sneak preview for some time late next year ;-)
"I don't know. He may have a bunch of swell party tricks but
he's still just a vampire. I say we load up with stakes and crossbows
and go after him now." - Riley, "Buffy vs. Dracula"
-- Keith Gow --
"Come on! This is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man,
and now I get to be the Slayer." - Willow, "Two to Go"
Keith Gow
lyrical:
I think we should. We can send it with letterhead from the "I Hate Tom
Fontana" club ;-)
But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
Keith Gow
>
>http://web.solutions.net.au/~kwgow/Cross_spread.html
>
Okay...
- The Beat touches SVU *and* Homicide
- Oz touches Homicide, The Beat *and* St Elsewhere
Keith Gow
lyrical:
Yeah, that's a fair call.
Martha K.
> On 20 Aug 2002 00:01:13 -0700, Unhur...@webtv.net (Unhurried1) waxed
> lyrical:
>
> >Martha wrote:
> >>
> >> Martha K.
> >> (doesn't watch Buffy, hasn't got a clue what we're talking about these
days)
> >
> >Amen, sister. I'm trying to catch up after being away since Thursday,
> >and I know I'm not alone in making the following request. Could
> >anyone wishing to turn yet another thread into a Buffy discussion
> >*pretty please with sugar on it* re-label the subject header?
>
> Yeah, that's a fair call.
Merci beaucoup.
Martha K.
Ashley
> Ashley waxed lyrical:
> >Keith Gow wrote:
> >> Season 5 is out here in November with commentaries on Real Me, Fool
> >> for Love, I was Made to Love You and The Body.
> >
> >Sure, go ahead. Rub it in.
>
> That was a sneak preview for some time late next year ;-)
Does/will Restless have commentary?
"lets get to the party part of the - party." -Buffy, "Fear, Itself"
Ashley
> La Reina waxed lyrical:
> >Patrick cited the following article:
> >>A Google-cached page of the New York Daily News brings confirmation
> >>from a well-placed source.
> >>--Patrick
> >>
> >>=========================================
> >>From: New York Daily News |Arts and Lifestyle | Television |
> >>Friday, June 29, 2001
> >>
> >>Extra-Impressed Fontana Lauds Eagle-eyed Readers
> >
> >Keith, Ash, you guys ought to send Fontana a framed printout of your Homicide
> >crossover spreadsheet.
>
> I think we should. We can send it with letterhead from the "I Hate Tom
> Fontana" club ;-)
>
> But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
> list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
> crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
I did that at one point, I'll have to search and find it.
I the explanation would also have to include something about what is
not
included: Jay Leno, ALex Trebek, Tim Russert, COPS, and ET.
> So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
I'd be happy to do the sending if someone knows where since it would
be cheaper for me (not being oversees and all).
ash
"Whoa! Slow down, people. Summer is over. Be somber."
-Teacher, "Anne"
>
La Reina
>> So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
>
>I'd be happy to do the sending if someone knows where since it would
>be cheaper for me (not being oversees and all).
I'll double check that it's still current and get back to you via e-mail.
Reina De Paréntesis
Patrick
wrote:
>But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
>list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
>crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
>
>So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
Not to be picky, but the version of the spreadsheet I've looked at
doesn't seem to connect The Simpsons directly to either H:LotS or
L&O:SVU, and the TF interview said that Munch appeared on The
Simpsons. I don't pretend to have followed the technical aspects of
this discussion (I got lost somewhere amid Jay Leno), but if TF thinks
there's a crossover, perhaps you'll want to either chart it or explain
why not.
Do we know what Tommy Westphall looks like? Putting the spreadsheet
in a big bubble over a picture of a dreaming Tommy might be just the
ticket. Or not.
--Patrick
And does TF's list of Munch crossovers resolve that question upthread
about whether some Belzer appearance or other was in Munch persona?
Martha K.
"Patrick" <pjh714F...@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:3d62e6f3...@nntp.bestweb.net...
> Previously on alt.tv.homicide, kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow)
> wrote:
>
>
> >But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
> >list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
> >crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
> >
> >So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
>
> Not to be picky, but the version of the spreadsheet I've looked at
> doesn't seem to connect The Simpsons directly to either H:LotS or
> L&O:SVU, and the TF interview said that Munch appeared on The
> Simpsons. I don't pretend to have followed the technical aspects of
> this discussion (I got lost somewhere amid Jay Leno), but if TF thinks
> there's a crossover, perhaps you'll want to either chart it or explain
> why not.
>
> Do we know what Tommy Westphall looks like? Putting the spreadsheet
> in a big bubble over a picture of a dreaming Tommy might be just the
> ticket. Or not.
He looks like Chad Allen, unless that's a figment of his imagination, too.
Martha K.
Ashley Crowe
(Patrick) wrote:
> Previously on alt.tv.homicide, kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow)
> wrote:
>
> >But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
> >list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
> >crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
> >
> >So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
>
> Not to be picky, but the version of the spreadsheet I've looked at
> doesn't seem to connect The Simpsons directly to either H:LotS or
> L&O:SVU, and the TF interview said that Munch appeared on The
> Simpsons. I don't pretend to have followed the technical aspects of
> this discussion (I got lost somewhere amid Jay Leno), but if TF thinks
> there's a crossover, perhaps you'll want to either chart it or explain
> why not.
I was actually going to bring that up. The article was the first I'd heard of a
Munch/The Simpsons connection. I search both at TV Tome and found
nothing. I also checked here: http://bit.sit.ac.nz/olsen/kenny/guests.html and
found nothing. I think TF is confused. Homicide does connect with the The
Simpsons by way of Munch but not becasue Munch was on X-Files but
because Munch was on X-Files and Mulder and Scully were on The Simpsons.
Can anyone find a reference other than the TF quote that shows that Munch
was indeed on The Simpsons? I searched the two best places I know.
I did find more Simpsons crossovers:
Season 5: 1F07: Werner Klemperer as Colonel Klink so Hogan's Heros should
be added
(Keith's going to hate me for this one because it screws up the grid)
Season 6: 2F08: Ted Danson as Sam; Woody Harrelson as Woody; Rhea
Perlman as Carla; John Ratzenberger as Cliff; George Wendt as Norm
Season 7: 3F06: Harry Morgan as Bill Gannon (Dragnet and Dragnet '67 (and
the eighties Dragnet movie))
Season 10: AABF05: Dick Tufeld as Lost in Space Robot
The Simpsons also started on/spun off from The Tracy Ullman Show
And what about movies? The Simpsons has also crossed over with Spinal Tap
and the Freddy Kreguer movies.
> Do we know what Tommy Westphall looks like? Putting the spreadsheet
> in a big bubble over a picture of a dreaming Tommy might be just the
> ticket. Or not.
He was played by Chad Allen. I found a few pictures here:
http://www.kclark.net/chad/images/stelsewhere/page_01.htm but there have
to be better pictures somewhere, or maybe not.
>
> --Patrick
> And does TF's list of Munch crossovers resolve that question upthread
> about whether some Belzer appearance or other was in Munch persona?
no the show in question there was (I believe) Mad About You which TF doesn't
mention. But Belzer was playing a different character in that episode (with a
name and everything)
ash
Patrick
wrote:
>> Do we know what Tommy Westphall looks like?
>
>He looks like Chad Allen, unless that's a figment of his imagination, too.
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 01:15:28 GMT, pjh714F...@bestweb.net
>(Patrick) wrote:
>> Previously on alt.tv.homicide, kw...@web.solutions.net.au (Keith Gow)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
>> >list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
>> >crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
>> >
>> >So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
>>
>> Not to be picky, but the version of the spreadsheet I've looked at
>> doesn't seem to connect The Simpsons directly to either H:LotS or
>> L&O:SVU, and the TF interview said that Munch appeared on The
>> Simpsons. I don't pretend to have followed the technical aspects of
>> this discussion (I got lost somewhere amid Jay Leno), but if TF thinks
>> there's a crossover, perhaps you'll want to either chart it or explain
>> why not.
>
>I was actually going to bring that up. The article was the first I'd heard of a
>Munch/The Simpsons connection. I search both at TV Tome and found
>nothing. I also checked here: http://bit.sit.ac.nz/olsen/kenny/guests.html and
>found nothing. I think TF is confused.
It wasn't directly attributed to Fontana. Whoever wrote the article
made this claim.
>Homicide does connect with the The
>Simpsons by way of Munch but not becasue Munch was on X-Files but
>because Munch was on X-Files and Mulder and Scully were on The Simpsons.
>
>Can anyone find a reference other than the TF quote that shows that Munch
>was indeed on The Simpsons? I searched the two best places I know.
>
If it's not at snpp.com then it didn't happen.
>I did find more Simpsons crossovers:
>Season 5: 1F07: Werner Klemperer as Colonel Klink so Hogan's Heros should
>be added
Well, it was a vision of Colonel Klink, so I'm not sure... Otherwise,
Hogans Heroes links to a lot of other stuff!
>(Keith's going to hate me for this one because it screws up the grid)
>Season 6: 2F08: Ted Danson as Sam; Woody Harrelson as Woody; Rhea
>Perlman as Carla; John Ratzenberger as Cliff; George Wendt as Norm
I hate you for that one!
>Season 7: 3F06: Harry Morgan as Bill Gannon (Dragnet and Dragnet '67 (and
>the eighties Dragnet movie))
>Season 10: AABF05: Dick Tufeld as Lost in Space Robot
I think he appeared at a Sci Fi convention, so it wasn't the actual
character from the Lost in Space universe.
>The Simpsons also started on/spun off from The Tracy Ullman Show
>
That's a weird one because they appeared on the show but not in it.
>And what about movies? The Simpsons has also crossed over with Spinal Tap
>and the Freddy Kreguer movies.
>
Lets not bring movies into this!
Martha K.
Where was I when he came out?
Martha K.
Ashley
> >> >But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
> >> >list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
> >> >crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
> >> >
> >> >So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
> >Patrick wrote:
> >> Not to be picky, but the version of the spreadsheet I've looked at
> >> doesn't seem to connect The Simpsons directly to either H:LotS or
> >> L&O:SVU, and the TF interview said that Munch appeared on The
> >> Simpsons. I don't pretend to have followed the technical aspects of
> >> this discussion (I got lost somewhere amid Jay Leno), but if TF thinks
> >> there's a crossover, perhaps you'll want to either chart it or explain
> >> why not.
I wrote:
> >I was actually going to bring that up. The article was the first I'd heard of a
> >Munch/The Simpsons connection. I search both at TV Tome and found
> >nothing. I also checked here: http://bit.sit.ac.nz/olsen/kenny/guests.html and
> >found nothing. I think TF is confused.
Keith Gow wrote:
> It wasn't directly attributed to Fontana. Whoever wrote the article
> made this claim.
>
> >Homicide does connect with the The
> >Simpsons by way of Munch but not becasue Munch was on X-Files but
> >because Munch was on X-Files and Mulder and Scully were on The Simpsons.
> >
> >Can anyone find a reference other than the TF quote that shows that Munch
> >was indeed on The Simpsons? I searched the two best places I know.
>
> If it's not at snpp.com then it didn't happen.
Munch is never mentioned at snpp.
>
> >I did find more Simpsons crossovers:
> >Season 5: 1F07: Werner Klemperer as Colonel Klink so Hogan's Heros should
> >be added
>
> Well, it was a vision of Colonel Klink, so I'm not sure... Otherwise,
> Hogans Heroes links to a lot of other stuff!
I forgot that part, he was Homer's guardian angel maybe it shouldn't
count. Seems like it would be equivalent to Munch et al watching Another
World on the squad room TV.
> >(Keith's going to hate me for this one because it screws up the grid)
> >Season 6: 2F08: Ted Danson as Sam; Woody Harrelson as Woody; Rhea
> >Perlman as Carla; John Ratzenberger as Cliff; George Wendt as Norm
>
> I hate you for that one!
sorry, I double checked at snpp.com (and read transcripts) it wasn't a
dream sequence in any way.
>
> >Season 7: 3F06: Harry Morgan as Bill Gannon (Dragnet and Dragnet '67 (and
> >the eighties Dragnet movie))
according to snpp.com this one is very bizarre. Bill Gannon was voiced
by the original actor but Joe Friday wasn't. And the way in The Simpsons
Gannon mention Friday had a son but on the TV show Dragnet he had no
children (and goodness know tv shows are always consistent).
> >Season 10: AABF05: Dick Tufeld as Lost in Space Robot
>
> I think he appeared at a Sci Fi convention, so it wasn't the actual
> character from the Lost in Space universe.
It was at the Sci-fi convention but the robot appear "in character" the
whole time. but discussing whether a robot was in character is akin to
discussing multiple Jay Leno so I'm fine with leaving that one out.
> >The Simpsons also started on/spun off from The Tracy Ullman Show
>
> That's a weird one because they appeared on the show but not in it.
Just like Miss Sally which we are using for a connection already.
>
> >And what about movies? The Simpsons has also crossed over with Spinal Tap
> >and the Freddy Kreguer movies.
>
> Lets not bring movies into this!
funny I knew you'd say that.
ash
"I say this is all moving much too fast. We need time to fully analyze
the situation and devise a proper and strategic stratagem."
-Wesley, "Choices"
Ashley Crowe
> > >> Do we know what Tommy Westphall looks like?
> > >
> > >He looks like Chad Allen, unless that's a figment of his imagination,
> too.
Patrick gave the URL:
> > http://www.kclark.net/chad/images/stelsewhere/chaall22.jpg
Martha K. asked:
> Where was I when he came out?
I don't know. It wasn't a huge deal but there was a good Advocate
story/intv with Bruce Vilanch here:
http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/848/848_cvr_allen.asp
and the original article about the tabloid photo mentioned in the intv
is here: http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/848/848_allen_719.asp (the
second includes a scanned in image of the Globe article).
I'm sure their were right wingers who made a huff. But honestly it
didn't get much attention because most of the gay community didn't watch
his show, or know him as a actor. An Advocate article in 1996, and a
advocate article in 2001 (which went along with a review of his (then)
current play), and everyone moved on their merry way.
If more outings happened like this, maybe more folks would come out of
the closet.
ash
"I'm not going to treat you differently. I won't. Cause that's not who I
am. And who I am is all I have left." - Pembleton, "Hostage 2"
Martha K.
"Ashley Crowe" <acr...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1103_10...@news-server.nc.rr.com...
> Patrick asked:
> > > >> Do we know what Tommy Westphall looks like?
> > > >
> Martha K. responded:
> > > >He looks like Chad Allen, unless that's a figment of his imagination,
> > too.
>
> Patrick gave the URL:
> > > http://www.kclark.net/chad/images/stelsewhere/chaall22.jpg
>
> Martha K. asked:
> > Where was I when he came out?
>
> I don't know. It wasn't a huge deal but there was a good Advocate
> story/intv with Bruce Vilanch here:
> http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/848/848_cvr_allen.asp
> and the original article about the tabloid photo mentioned in the intv
> is here: http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/848/848_allen_719.asp (the
> second includes a scanned in image of the Globe article).
Thanks for the links.
>
> I'm sure their were right wingers who made a huff. But honestly it
> didn't get much attention because most of the gay community didn't watch
> his show, or know him as a actor. An Advocate article in 1996, and a
> advocate article in 2001 (which went along with a review of his (then)
> current play), and everyone moved on their merry way.
>
> If more outings happened like this, maybe more folks would come out of
> the closet.
Wish they felt they could.
Martha K.
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
>> Ashley waxed lyrical:
>> >Keith Gow wrote:
>> >> Season 5 is out here in November with commentaries on Real Me, Fool
>> >> for Love, I was Made to Love You and The Body.
>> >
>> >Sure, go ahead. Rub it in.
>>
>> That was a sneak preview for some time late next year ;-)
>
>Does/will Restless have commentary?
>
Oh, yes it does. It's quite wonderful, yet Joss still doesn't address
some stuff that I'd love to ask him about!
For the record, commentaries on -
Season 3: Helpless, Bad Girls, Consequences, Earshot
Season 4: The Initiative, Hush, This Year's Girl, Superstar, Primeval,
Restless (and, from what I hear, New Moon Rising especially for Region
1...)
Season 5: Real Me, Fool For Love, I Was Made to Love You, The Body
"Got it. What makes you feel more alive than the good stuff?" - Xander
"Exactly. Sex is like a big party for our aliveness. But it's more
than that. It's about making life." - Anya, "Forever"
-- Keith Gow --
"Come on! This is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man,
and now I get to be the Slayer." - Willow, "Two to Go"
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
>> La Reina waxed lyrical:
>> >Patrick cited the following article:
>> >>A Google-cached page of the New York Daily News brings confirmation
>> >>from a well-placed source.
>> >>--Patrick
>> >>
>> >>=========================================
>> >>From: New York Daily News |Arts and Lifestyle | Television |
>> >>Friday, June 29, 2001
>> >>
>> >>Extra-Impressed Fontana Lauds Eagle-eyed Readers
>> >
>> >Keith, Ash, you guys ought to send Fontana a framed printout of your Homicide
>> >crossover spreadsheet.
>>
>> I think we should. We can send it with letterhead from the "I Hate Tom
>> Fontana" club ;-)
>>
>> But seriously, I think he'd find it cool. Especially if I made up a
>> list of how the shows linked - in the most simplest terms (character
>> crossover, story crossover, character mention, etc.)
>
>I did that at one point, I'll have to search and find it.
>I the explanation would also have to include something about what is
>not
>included: Jay Leno, ALex Trebek, Tim Russert, COPS, and ET.
>
A small disclaimer about them being real and not fictional covers all
those examples.
Whereas Miss Sally counts because she is a fictional show.
>> So, La Reina, you've got contacts, where would we send it?
>
>I'd be happy to do the sending if someone knows where since it would
>be cheaper for me (not being oversees and all).
Very cool. Thanks.
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>Keith Gow wrote:
>> It wasn't directly attributed to Fontana. Whoever wrote the article
>> made this claim.
>>
>> >Homicide does connect with the The
>> >Simpsons by way of Munch but not becasue Munch was on X-Files but
>> >because Munch was on X-Files and Mulder and Scully were on The Simpsons.
>> >
>> >Can anyone find a reference other than the TF quote that shows that Munch
>> >was indeed on The Simpsons? I searched the two best places I know.
>>
>> If it's not at snpp.com then it didn't happen.
>
>Munch is never mentioned at snpp.
>>
Good.
>> >I did find more Simpsons crossovers:
>> >Season 5: 1F07: Werner Klemperer as Colonel Klink so Hogan's Heros should
>> >be added
>>
>> Well, it was a vision of Colonel Klink, so I'm not sure... Otherwise,
>> Hogans Heroes links to a lot of other stuff!
>
>I forgot that part, he was Homer's guardian angel maybe it shouldn't
>count. Seems like it would be equivalent to Munch et al watching Another
>World on the squad room TV.
>
It doesn't count.
>> >(Keith's going to hate me for this one because it screws up the grid)
>> >Season 6: 2F08: Ted Danson as Sam; Woody Harrelson as Woody; Rhea
>> >Perlman as Carla; John Ratzenberger as Cliff; George Wendt as Norm
>>
>> I hate you for that one!
>
>sorry, I double checked at snpp.com (and read transcripts) it wasn't a
>dream sequence in any way.
>>
Damn it. What am I going to do? I don't want to put it in twice!
There's no way of reconfiguring the guide without it looking
completely ridiculous! Too many loops!
>> >Season 7: 3F06: Harry Morgan as Bill Gannon (Dragnet and Dragnet '67 (and
>> >the eighties Dragnet movie))
>
>according to snpp.com this one is very bizarre. Bill Gannon was voiced
>by the original actor but Joe Friday wasn't. And the way in The Simpsons
>Gannon mention Friday had a son but on the TV show Dragnet he had no
>children (and goodness know tv shows are always consistent).
>
Hmmm...
>> >The Simpsons also started on/spun off from The Tracy Ullman Show
>>
>> That's a weird one because they appeared on the show but not in it.
>
>Just like Miss Sally which we are using for a connection already.
>>
Yes, but Tracy Ullman wasn't a drama, it was a sketch comedy show,
right?
>> >And what about movies? The Simpsons has also crossed over with Spinal Tap
>> >and the Freddy Kreguer movies.
>>
>> Lets not bring movies into this!
>
>funny I knew you'd say that.
>
Excellent.
morph
Unhurried1 wrote:
she is the best, don't ya know. I know how ya feel rushless, but i been watchin
her a mitey long time. and just when i hesitated about naming her the best
cinematic character, this guy Angel comes by and wow, what a hunk. oh yeah, BUFFY
is frigginn aces. Real good. I hear the Buffy cop-rock mock is a scream.
The show is a millimeter above disney crap. Angel, sadly, isn't even as good as
disney crap. Who else is involved!!!!! and when can i shoot them????
I like Lizzie Maguire. she is way hotter than that Angel pervo. like, get real. I
just got this top at Hot Topics, ain't it superfly? and check out my steve madden
shoes. he's in jail. he's my hero......but angel afteralll,as i was bein real, is
a stonehunk. i can't believe Buffy didn't do him when she had the chance!
snotnosed bitch!
maybe this isn't exact, but it's an all too common sad scenario.
morph(who will scadaddle as fast as he ever has as soon as this post is sent)-
Buffy is a faking whore bitch snob. Her popularity depends on people being not
that bright. She emulates the erosion of intelligence once regarded
for(sigh)((gasp!!)) Homicide fans. Buffy sad to say, killed ryland, and she set
Tim up for it cuz Tim wouldn't sleep with her. I swear, it's true! why would i
lie. Yasee, it was bad timing is all
Buffy thought she could manipulate Tim into a relationship without him knowing it,
and Tim eventually found out. and he was pissed. And instead of admitting she was
wrong, Buffy went out and seduced the first brainless Fallen son she could find,
to make him jealous. Tim, took no notice. He had revenge on his mind. no time for
women, slayers or otherwise. Buffy whored herself out to the highest bidding
shaman in misguided hope of redemption. And here comes Angel, the fallen, to be
the bullshit white knight female humans have been taught to expect from male
humanity, but never find, so they can complain about it.
Buffy is trailortrash. it's springer meets Xena. (i do love xena, but i won't
admit it)()(it's so campy)(). damn.
well, i still don't like buffy, and angel is total total wholehearted crap. i just
can't justify the position tho. actually, it's pretty much just a perspective.
morph- i'm flying with broken wings, i'm flying alone.....(a line, from a song, by
the group Angel)((so, it's a song ref, i guess))(((i was trying not to do any
ref's and--- damn....)))
morph
Ashley wrote: snip. with extreme prejudice.
lissen up crowe. i shall say this once again, and once again only.
Fontana has/had/always will have/ his own agenda. It doesn't matter how
awesome a model someone sets up for him, he turns it into his agenda. He is
not a creator. He preys on human emotional insecurity. he's a stringpuller.
a complicated stringpuller, but one nonetheless.
He changed elsewhere, changed hlots, used OZ as the percieved gritty show
that is truly nothing more than a followup of "prison riot". he is all
agenda.
fuck fontanna. gimme Attanasio and Levinson. They created what he
bastardized, they get the credit. not fontana.
morph-didn't post this, you are looking into a shakey thingy snowball
thingy.......it's a dream. yeah, that's it. It's just a dream......
Martha K.
"morph" <oneir...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D64B61A...@earthlink.net...
Buffy I've viewed over the years, it's not worth the rant. Are you hopped
up on goofball draperies? Trixie, I think the boy needs some silly cookies,
pronto.
Martha K.
Ashley Crowe
> >> >> Season 5 is out here in November with commentaries on Real Me, Fool
> >> >> for Love, I was Made to Love You and The Body.
> >> >
> >> >Sure, go ahead. Rub it in.
> >>
> >> That was a sneak preview for some time late next year ;-)
> >
> >Does/will Restless have commentary?
>
> Oh, yes it does. It's quite wonderful, yet Joss still doesn't address
> some stuff that I'd love to ask him about!
I'm looking forward to that then. And speaking of Restless. Have you ever seen
the old annotated Restless webpage? I think it's been taken offline now but I
probably have it somewhere on my hard drive.
I have this whole theory about the Cheese Man in Restless and what he means
but that's probably better suited for email, as what I quote in my sig for that
matter.
<snip>
"I don't want to be
Going through the motions
Losing all my drive.
I can't even see
If this is really me
And I just want to be-
Alive." -Buffy, "Once More, With Feeling"
ash
"That night the Mother of the Spirits walked the length and breadth of the clan,
weeping for her murdered son. It was a terrible night. Not even the oldest man
in Umuofia had ever heard such a strange and fearful sound, and it was never
to be heard again. It seemed as if the very soul of the tribe wept for a great evil
that was coming -- it's own death." - Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart
morph
"Martha K." wrote:
>
> morphy, honey, much as I was repulsed by the two five-minute segments of
> Buffy I've viewed over the years, it's not worth the rant. Are you hopped
> up on goofball draperies? Trixie, I think the boy needs some silly cookies,
> pronto.
>
> Martha K.
time out. that was some of my best work! i tied in the ryland shooting, tim
being cute, buffy being..well what it is. I even had a song ref about Angel! i
deserve an ...umm. well, yaknow.
morph- all the peoples ain't always pleased alls the time. c'est la vie.
RESchwalb
<< morphy, honey, much as I was repulsed by the two five-minute segments of
Buffy I've viewed over the years, it's not worth the rant. Are you hopped
up on goofball draperies? Trixie, I think the boy needs some silly cookies,
pronto. >>
He may need 'em--I don't dispute he needs *something*, badly--but he's gonna
havta wait. Too busy sewing!
Trixie
Martha K.
"RESchwalb" <resc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020826004930...@mb-fw.aol.com...
That's the solution! Silly textiles!
Martha K.
morph
"Martha K." wrote:
hold on a sec. i'm being played here. whether it's draperous textiles or
cookies, i still look bad! Now how the hell did that happen? I am a ..
morph- i hope y'all are havin fun. wiseasses. i am not pleased! not one little
itty bit!
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>> >> >Keith Gow wrote:
>> >> >> Season 5 is out here in November with commentaries on Real Me, Fool
>> >> >> for Love, I was Made to Love You and The Body.
>> >> >
>> >> >Sure, go ahead. Rub it in.
>> >>
>> >> That was a sneak preview for some time late next year ;-)
>> >
>> >Does/will Restless have commentary?
>>
>> Oh, yes it does. It's quite wonderful, yet Joss still doesn't address
>> some stuff that I'd love to ask him about!
>
>I'm looking forward to that then. And speaking of Restless. Have you ever seen
>the old annotated Restless webpage? I think it's been taken offline now but I
>probably have it somewhere on my hard drive.
>
I didn't see that webpage.
>I have this whole theory about the Cheese Man in Restless and what he means
>but that's probably better suited for email, as what I quote in my sig for that
>matter.
>
Well, as Joss says the Cheese Man means nothing...
I'd rather not over-analyze him, actually. It's enough trying to
decipher the rest of the ep - though Joss' commentary basically lays
it all out.
ie. folds of the red curtain = red folds of the vagina, etc, etc.
Anya - "She came from the grave much graver"
Spike - "First I'll kill her, then I'll save her"
Tara - "Everything is turning out so dark"
Buffy - "Going through the motions..."
Spike - "No, I'll save her, then I'll kill her"
Willow - "I think this line is mostly filler"
- Walk Through the Fire (Cast), "Once More, With Feeling"
-- Keith Gow --
kwgow (can now be found at) vicnet.net.au
Ashley Crowe
> >> >Does/will Restless have commentary?
kw...@vicnet.net.au (Keith Gow) wrote:
> >> Oh, yes it does. It's quite wonderful, yet Joss still doesn't address
> >> some stuff that I'd love to ask him about!
> >
> >I'm looking forward to that then. And speaking of Restless. Have you ever
> >seen the old annotated Restless webpage? I think it's been taken offline
> >now but I probably have it somewhere on my hard drive.
>
> I didn't see that webpage.
Well I'm darn happy to report that the site has been brought back (to a new
home) a Restless exegesis: http://www.lead-to-
gold.com/kipmanley/exegesis/exegesis.html I don't agree with all the points he
makes and some of it may now be negated by Whedon's commetary but I think
it is a wonderful attempt.
> >I have this whole theory about the Cheese Man in Restless and what he
> >means but that's probably better suited for email, as what I quote in my sig
> >for that matter.
>
> Well, as Joss says the Cheese Man means nothing...
that is hogwash
> I'd rather not over-analyze him, actually. It's enough trying to
> decipher the rest of the ep - though Joss' commentary basically lays
> it all out.
Beside the fact that the episode Normal Again is similiar to a teen book "I am
the Cheese" which I used to love. I think the Cheese Man fits in with all the
mouse/cat imagery of the episode.
Hard to explain. I'm just going to string it out.
1) When Riley first talks to Willow about Buffy there is this little
conversation:
Willow: She likes cheese.
Riley: What? Well, I'm not saying it's the key to her heart, but
Buffy... She likes cheese.
Riley: That's a start.
Willow: She has a stuffed piggy named Mr. Gordo, loves ice capades
without the irony, and she's dragging me to this party tonight at Lowell
House.
2) In Restless Joyce has a Mouse nibbling at her knees, (Buffy briefly
is turned into a rat by Amy (Xander's love spell), Amy becomes a rat
(never called a mouse)).
3) Also in Restless Willow and Tara still don't know Miss Kitty
Fantasico's name, and in that conversation there is a question about
Tara's true name. Later in the episode Tara speaks for the First Slayer
who cannot speak and has no name. So there is this line between the cat
and the slayer (through Tara).
4) After Tara has her brain sucked at one point she looks at Buffy and
says something to the effect of "she chases mice" can't find the quote.
And I'm convinced that somehow all of Tara's crazy lines still make
since. And this one strengthens the Buffy/cat link.
5) So there is a parallel between Buffy and a cat, but she likes cheese
(because she's already been a rat/mouse?)
6) Going back to Restless, Joyce is buried in the walls playing with the
mice. Joyce dies, the being buried in the walls bit foreshadows this.
7) Just to tie up ends if this mouse = death parallel is to be believed
then Amy has a big ol painful death coming her way (and I hope we get to
watch). I really don't like Amy.
8 )By the time Restless airs Buffy has already died once (and already
been a rat once). But she still wants want mice want ("She like cheese")
maybe this represents her Slayer Death Wish.
9) Buffy is a predator (cat) with a death wish and "death is her gift"
10)I can't quite make it all fit but every time I rewatch Restless I'm
more and more convinced that the whole cheese-mouse/rat-cat thing is
foreshadowing the fact that Buffy will die again.
10) The cheese man doesn't seem to fit in any of the dreams, he is
always what we least expect. Likewise in The Gift Buffy does what the
audience least expects and kills her self to save the world. It makes as
little sense in the grand scheme of thing as the cheese man does in
Restless, and yet it makes as much sense as the cheese man.
Or maybe the cheese man really is only an example of my ability to find
logic and meaning in the meaningless when I let my mind wander and
ponder. nah, don't think so there's too much there.
>
> ie. folds of the red curtain = red folds of the vagina, etc, etc.
I've heard that one.
I haven't rewatched Restless since I learned that Whedon told Amber Benson
how her character was going to die around the time Restless was shot. I'm
curious what foreshadowing is there, but I almost don't want to go back and
look.
"Okay, once more, with even less feeling."
-Xander, "The Freshman"
ash
Shel
wrote:
<snip>
>Or maybe the cheese man really is only an example of my ability to find
>logic and meaning in the meaningless when I let my mind wander and
>ponder. nah, don't think so there's too much there.
It's possible it all means nothing and Bob is the killer.
Oops. Sorry. Wrong show.
--
Shel
La Reina
>
>Anya - "She came from the grave much graver"
>Spike - "First I'll kill her, then I'll save her"
>Tara - "Everything is turning out so dark"
>Buffy - "Going through the motions..."
>Spike - "No, I'll save her, then I'll kill her"
>Willow - "I think this line is mostly filler"
>
>- Walk Through the Fire (Cast), "Once More, With Feeling"
I'm pretty sure Spike's first line there is, "First he'll kill her then I'll
save her." At least on the DVD it looks/sounds like Spike's referring to the
demon.
And you left out Giles' like, "What's it going to take to strike a spark?"
Reina De Paréntesis
La Reina
>Beside the fact that the episode Normal Again is similiar to a teen book
>"I am
>the Cheese" which I used to love. I think the Cheese Man fits in with all
>the
>mouse/cat imagery of the episode.
>
>Hard to explain. I'm just going to string it out.
>1) When Riley first talks to Willow about Buffy there is this little
>conversation:
>Willow: She likes cheese.
>Riley: What? Well, I'm not saying it's the key to her heart, but
>Buffy... She likes cheese.
>2) In Restless Joyce has a Mouse nibbling at her knees, (Buffy briefly
>is turned into a rat by Amy (Xander's love spell), Amy becomes a rat
>(never called a mouse)).
Rats like cheese, too, I hear.
The whole "She likes cheese" thing is so obvious now that you've pointed it
out.
>3) Also in Restless Willow and Tara still don't know Miss Kitty
>Fantasico's name, and in that conversation there is a question about
>Tara's true name. Later in the episode Tara speaks for the First Slayer
>who cannot speak and has no name. So there is this line between the cat
>and the slayer (through Tara).
Okay, but I think that one might be a wee bit of a stretch. But in another
encounter with the first Slayer, Buffy's spirit guide is a feline, and she sees
it and says, "Hello, Kitty."
>4) After Tara has her brain sucked at one point she looks at Buffy and
>says something to the effect of "she chases mice" can't find the quote.
>And I'm convinced that somehow all of Tara's crazy lines still make
>since. And this one strengthens the Buffy/cat link.
She mentions cats and or mice, I know that much.
>5) So there is a parallel between Buffy and a cat, but she likes cheese
>(because she's already been a rat/mouse?)
Well, she was a rat before Amy was.
>6) Going back to Restless, Joyce is buried in the walls playing with the
>mice. Joyce dies, the being buried in the walls bit foreshadows this.
That's the connection I always saw before.
>7) Just to tie up ends if this mouse = death parallel is to be believed
>then Amy has a big ol painful death coming her way (and I hope we get to
>watch). I really don't like Amy.
No one does. I hope you're right on this one!
>8 )By the time Restless airs Buffy has already died once (and already
>been a rat once). But she still wants want mice want ("She like cheese")
>maybe this represents her Slayer Death Wish.
Cheese = death?
>10)I can't quite make it all fit but every time I rewatch Restless I'm
>more and more convinced that the whole cheese-mouse/rat-cat thing is
>foreshadowing the fact that Buffy will die again.
Or maybe it's just a description of her role as Slayer? Vampires are cheese?
She liked Angel. She likes Spike. (Okay, so yeah, now I'm the one stretching,
but it's fun.)
Wait. No. Buffy's the cat, right? The cat who once was a rat. (Sounding a bit
Dr, Suessian here, sorry.) The former rat/cat who likes cheese.
Uh-oh.....another possibility. The Slayer's the cat. Vampires are the rats.
Slayer cats kill the vampire rats. Buffy was a rat once, and a vampire once,
ever so briefly. Buffy is a former rat/vampire cat who likes cheese. She likes
what vampires like (cheese/darkness) -- which Spike spent the better part of
season 6 pointing out to her. That all circles back to Riley, too, and Spike
forever telling Riley he wasn't dark enough for Buffy.
Okay, so I'm getting a bit silly, but if I really tried, maybe I could make a
case for one or more of these scenarios.
>10) The cheese man doesn't seem to fit in any of the dreams, he is
>always what we least expect. Likewise in The Gift Buffy does what the
>audience least expects and kills her self to save the world. It makes as
>little sense in the grand scheme of thing as the cheese man does in
>Restless, and yet it makes as much sense as the cheese man.
>
>Or maybe the cheese man really is only an example of my ability to find
>logic and meaning in the meaningless when I let my mind wander and
>ponder. nah, don't think so there's too much there.
Plus, it's fun.
Reina De Paréntesis
La Reina
>
>>Beside the fact that the episode Normal Again is similiar to a teen book
>>"I am
>>the Cheese" which I used to love. I think the Cheese Man fits in with all
>>the
>>mouse/cat imagery of the episode.
>>
(snip)
Ooh! We left another one out! In the episode with the two Xanders (The
Replacement?), Xander and Anya are talking in front of everyone (Realtor
included) about his old basement apartment. At some point Anya says something
like, "We think the cat peed on the hot plate."
Okay -- do we even want to go there with the (urine)alysis?
Reina De Paréntesis
Ashley Crowe
> Ash wrote all kinds of fun stuff:
<snip>
> >Hard to explain. I'm just going to string it out.
> >1) When Riley first talks to Willow about Buffy there is this little
> >conversation:
> >Willow: She likes cheese.
> >Riley: What? Well, I'm not saying it's the key to her heart, but
> >Buffy... She likes cheese.
<snip>
>
> The whole "She likes cheese" thing is so obvious now that you've pointed it
> out.
After Amy comes back she no longer wants cheese:
Amy: Do you have any cookies?
BUFFY: Uh, yeah, w-what kind?
AMY: Any kind. Not cheese.
But Buffy still wants cheese. What is interesting is that Buffy is coded as both
the predator (cat) and the victim (mouse).
>
> >3) Also in Restless Willow and Tara still don't know Miss Kitty
> >Fantasico's name, and in that conversation there is a question about
> >Tara's true name. Later in the episode Tara speaks for the First Slayer
> >who cannot speak and has no name. So there is this line between the cat
> >and the slayer (through Tara).
>
> Okay, but I think that one might be a wee bit of a stretch. But in another
> encounter with the first Slayer, Buffy's spirit guide is a feline, and she sees
> it and says, "Hello, Kitty."
I forgot that part. There is a definate connection between teh Slayer and the
Cat then.
>
> >4) After Tara has her brain sucked at one point she looks at Buffy and
> >says something to the effect of "she chases mice" can't find the quote.
> >And I'm convinced that somehow all of Tara's crazy lines still make
> >since. And this one strengthens the Buffy/cat link.
>
> She mentions cats and or mice, I know that much.
From the Tough Love transcript:
Buffy enters.
BUFFY: Hey. Will, I'm so sorry.
She hugs Willow, looking over her shoulder at Tara.
Shot of Tara staring vaguely at nothing.
Buffy and Willow pull apart. Willow has tears in her eyes. She looks at Tara
who gives her a huge smile.
TARA: They kill mice.
Shot of Willow with tears on her cheeks.
BUFFY: Tara.
Buffy hugs Tara, who doesn't react. Buffy pulls back slowly and looks at
Willow.
BUFFY: I'm sorry it took me so long, but Dawn's safe with Spike, so I-I can stay
as long as you need.
Willow puts her hand over Tara's non-bandaged hand.
WILLOW: (to Buffy) I'm so scared.
The "They kill mice" line was also repeated in the previously of Buffy for
Weight of the World.
So Buffy (as a slayer) kills mice. But she is still a mouse (because she likes
cheese). Buffy's going to kill herself. Foreshadowing is a beautiful thing.
If this was all hog wash then why did they but that line of Tara's in the
previously
<snip>
>
> >6) Going back to Restless, Joyce is buried in the walls playing with the
> >mice. Joyce dies, the being buried in the walls bit foreshadows this.
>
> That's the connection I always saw before.
>
> >7) Just to tie up ends if this mouse = death parallel is to be believed
> >then Amy has a big ol painful death coming her way (and I hope we get to
> >watch). I really don't like Amy.
>
> No one does. I hope you're right on this one!
I want to see her and Andrew die bloody, Jonathan too.
>
> >8 )By the time Restless airs Buffy has already died once (and already
> >been a rat once). But she still wants want mice want ("She like cheese")
> >maybe this represents her Slayer Death Wish.
>
> Cheese = death?
maybe.
Spike has said that all slayers have a death wish:
"Death is on your heels, baby, and sooner or later it's gonna catch you....
And part of you wants it... not only to stop the fear and uncertainty,
but because you're just a little bit in love with it....Death is your art. You make it
with your hands, day after day....That final gasp. That look of peace. Part of
you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it lead you? And now you
see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or the kicks you didn't
land. Every Slayer... has a death wish....Even you....The only reason you've
lasted as long as you have is you've got ties to the world... your mum, your brat
kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but you're just putting off the
inevitable....Sooner or later, you're gonna want it. And the second- the second-
that happens...You know I'll be there. I'll slip in... have myself a real good day."
-Fool for Love
So not only does Buffy have that death wish. "death is [her] gift"
It doesn't all fit but I just feel so close.
> >10)I can't quite make it all fit but every time I rewatch Restless I'm
> >more and more convinced that the whole cheese-mouse/rat-cat thing is
> >foreshadowing the fact that Buffy will die again.
>
> Or maybe it's just a description of her role as Slayer? Vampires are cheese?
> She liked Angel. She likes Spike. (Okay, so yeah, now I'm the one stretching,
> but it's fun.)
>
> Wait. No. Buffy's the cat, right? The cat who once was a rat. (Sounding a bit
> Dr, Suessian here, sorry.) The former rat/cat who likes cheese.
that's right.
>
> Uh-oh.....another possibility. The Slayer's the cat. Vampires are the rats.
> Slayer cats kill the vampire rats. Buffy was a rat once, and a vampire once,
> ever so briefly. Buffy is a former rat/vampire cat who likes cheese. She likes
> what vampires like (cheese/darkness) -- which Spike spent the better part of
> season 6 pointing out to her. That all circles back to Riley, too, and Spike
> forever telling Riley he wasn't dark enough for Buffy.
I like that but how do Joyce and Amy fit in.
>
> Okay, so I'm getting a bit silly, but if I really tried, maybe I could make a
> case for one or more of these scenarios.
I think the second one is the bdetter theory. I actaully really like that one.
>
> >10) The cheese man doesn't seem to fit in any of the dreams, he is
> >always what we least expect. Likewise in The Gift Buffy does what the
> >audience least expects and kills her self to save the world. It makes as
> >little sense in the grand scheme of thing as the cheese man does in
> >Restless, and yet it makes as much sense as the cheese man.
> >
> >Or maybe the cheese man really is only an example of my ability to find
> >logic and meaning in the meaningless when I let my mind wander and
> >ponder. nah, don't think so there's too much there.
>
> Plus, it's fun.
Oh definately.
I also think it is interesting to see what The Chees Man actually says, and to
who.
To Willow:
(To the side, in the darkness, she sees a bald man wearing glasses.)
BALD MAN: (whispers) I've made a little space for the cheese slices.
(He shows her a table with slices of American cheese laid neatly in a row.)
To Xander:
(Pounding continues. He backs away, turns, sees the bald man holding up a
plate of cheese slices.)
BALD MAN: These ... will not protect you.
(More pounding, growling. Xander goes past the bald man and out the back
door.
To Giles:
(Color: Giles walking through crypt. The bald man stops him.)
BALD MAN: I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.
(He has cheese slices on his head and shoulders. He slides past Giles.)
To Buffy:
(The bald guy leans in between Buffy and the First Slayer, holding up two
slices of cheese. He grins and shakes the cheese at Buffy, then retreats
offscreen.)
BUFFY: That's it. I'm waking up.
The script call him the bald guy, but I'm sticking with the Cheese Man.
The Cheese Man makes some space on the table for cheese for Willow. The
table could represent her life and the cheese he has laid on the Table the
upcoming deaths that will effect her, Joyce, Buffy and finally Tara.
The cheeses (deaths) are already on the table when he get to Xander but they
"will not protect" him. Despite the fact that Buffy save the world with her death.
Xander (and the world) are still left unprotected when faced withteh
consequences of Tara's death, and it is up to Xander to protect himself (and
save the world).
Giles' makes the least sense, Is the cheese Man maybe trying to say that Giles
will be and has been responsible for death. Ben's death maybe.
And the most obvious is that the Cheese Man doesn't say anything to Buffy he
doesn't need to he just presents her with the cheese (death).
BUFFY: Ah... (Gets up) Well, at least you all didn't dream about that guy
with the cheese. (Walks off.)
(The others look up in surprise.)
BUFFY: (offscreen) I don't know *where* the hell that came from.
(The other three look at each other.)
(Cut to Buffy emerging from the stairs into the upper hallway. Walks down
the hall toward the bathroom. Frowns, turns, looks into her bedroom. Walks
into the doorway, looking at her bed.)
TARA VOICEOVER: You think you know ... what's to come ... what you are.
You haven't even begun.
(Long shot of the darkened bedroom, with Buffy framed in the doorway. She
slowly backs away, turns and walks out of sight.)
The Cheese Man is not meaningless! Never mind this quote "The cheese man
..is the only thing in the show that means nothing. I needed something like
that, something that couldn't be explained, because dreams always have that
one element that is just RIDICULOUS." (The Bronze, joss, May 23 20:01
2000).
ash
"My lady, do not subdue my heart by anguish and pain
But come to me as when before
You heard my distant cry, and listened:
..
Then you my goddess with your immortal lips smiling
Would ask what now afflicts me, why again
I am calling and what now I with my restive heart
Desired:
Whom now shall I beguile
To bring you to her love?
Who now injures you, Sappho?
For if she flees, soon shall she chase
And, rejecting gifts, soon shall she give.
If she does not love you, she shall do so soon
Whatsoever is her will.
Come to me now to end this consuming pain
Bringing what my heart desires to be brought:
Be yourself my ally in this fight."
-A translation of the Sappho poem that Wilow writes on Tara's back.
>
>
> Reina De Paréntesis
Ashley Crowe
And there is the cat that comes back fromt he dead that Buffy finds in Dead
Man's party.
I'm not sure I want to go there.
ash
"It looks dead. It smells dead. Yet it's movin' around. That's interesting."
-Oz, "Dead Man's Party"
>
>
> Reina De Paréntesis
La Reina
>After Amy comes back she no longer wants cheese:
>Amy: Do you have any cookies?
>BUFFY: Uh, yeah, w-what kind?
>AMY: Any kind. Not cheese.
Well, Buffy was a rat for like two hours. Amy for three years. Big difference.
>
>But Buffy still wants cheese. What is interesting is that Buffy is coded
>as both
>the predator (cat) and the victim (mouse).
>>
>>But in another
>> encounter with the first Slayer, Buffy's spirit guide is a feline, and
>she sees
>> it and says, "Hello, Kitty."
>
>I forgot that part. There is a definate connection between teh Slayer and
>the
>Cat then.
Or just a cute pop culture ref. Doesn't Willow wear a Hello Kitty t-shirt now
and then?
>From the Tough Love transcript:
>Buffy enters.
>BUFFY: Hey. Will, I'm so sorry.
>She hugs Willow, looking over her shoulder at Tara.
>Shot of Tara staring vaguely at nothing.
>Buffy and Willow pull apart. Willow has tears in her eyes. She looks at
>Tara
>who gives her a huge smile.
>TARA: They kill mice.
>Shot of Willow with tears on her cheeks.
>BUFFY: Tara.
>Buffy hugs Tara, who doesn't react. Buffy pulls back slowly and looks at
>
>Willow.
>BUFFY: I'm sorry it took me so long, but Dawn's safe with Spike, so I-I
>can stay
>as long as you need.
>Willow puts her hand over Tara's non-bandaged hand.
>WILLOW: (to Buffy) I'm so scared.
>
>The "They kill mice" line was also repeated in the previously of Buffy for
>
>Weight of the World.
>
>So Buffy (as a slayer) kills mice.
But Tara says "they." She's talking to Buffy, not about her. Even if she looks
at Willow, that was sort of like her greeting to Buffy.
>But she is still a mouse (because she
>likes
>cheese). Buffy's going to kill herself. Foreshadowing is a beautiful thing.
That works.
>
>If this was all hog wash then why did they but that line of Tara's in the
>
>previously
To indicate she'd really been brain-sucked.
>> >7) Just to tie up ends if this mouse = death parallel is to be believed
>> >then Amy has a big ol painful death coming her way (and I hope we get
>to
>> >watch). I really don't like Amy.
>>
>> No one does. I hope you're right on this one!
>
>I want to see her and Andrew die bloody, Jonathan too.
No. I like Jonathan. He helped Buffy by telling her to smash the orbs. And he
offered to help in the bookstore, but Xander got all high & mighty on him.
>>
>> >8 )By the time Restless airs Buffy has already died once (and already
>> >been a rat once). But she still wants want mice want ("She like cheese")
>> >maybe this represents her Slayer Death Wish.
>>
>> Cheese = death?
>
>maybe.
>
>Spike has said that all slayers have a death wish:
>"Death is on your heels, baby, and sooner or later it's gonna catch you....
Now, I'd totally buy into the cheese + death idea (or high cholestoral at
least) if after he said that Buffy walked away with a bit of cheese stuck to
her shoe.
>And part of you wants it... not only to stop the fear and uncertainty,
>but because you're just a little bit in love with it....Death is your art.
>You make it
>with your hands, day after day....That final gasp. That look of peace. Part
>of
>you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it lead you? And now
>you
>see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or the kicks you
>didn't
>land. Every Slayer... has a death wish....Even you....The only reason you've
>
>lasted as long as you have is you've got ties to the world... your mum,
>your brat
>kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you here but you're just putting
>off the
>inevitable....Sooner or later, you're gonna want it. And the second- the
>second-
>that happens...You know I'll be there. I'll slip in... have myself a real
>good day."
> -Fool for Love
Okay, and if you want to get really out there with the analysis, we can go to
the whole death = sexual ecstasy symbolism we learned back in British Lit. She
wanted it, he slipped in, and they had themselves a real good day. Or night.
Well, both, kind of.
>> Or maybe it's just a description of her role as Slayer? Vampires are cheese?
>> She liked Angel. She likes Spike. (Okay, so yeah, now I'm the one
stretching,
>> but it's fun.)
>>
>> Wait. No. Buffy's the cat, right? The cat who once was a rat. (Sounding
>a bit
>> Dr, Suessian here, sorry.) The former rat/cat who likes cheese.
>
>that's right.
I almost feel a song coming on.
>>
>> Uh-oh.....another possibility. The Slayer's the cat. Vampires are the
>rats.
>> Slayer cats kill the vampire rats. Buffy was a rat once, and a vampire
>once,
>> ever so briefly. Buffy is a former rat/vampire cat who likes cheese. She
>likes
>> what vampires like (cheese/darkness) -- which Spike spent the better part
>of
>> season 6 pointing out to her. That all circles back to Riley, too, and
>Spike
>> forever telling Riley he wasn't dark enough for Buffy.
>
>I like that but how do Joyce and Amy fit in.
It made sense? I was just playing. Hmmm.....Amy likes darkness, because she's a
witch, a magic junkie. That could fit. And Joyce? I just always thought the
mice ticking her toes bit was foreshadowing her death. Lying in a grave with
rodents sniffing about.
>>
>> Okay, so I'm getting a bit silly, but if I really tried, maybe I could
>make a
>> case for one or more of these scenarios.
>
>I think the second one is the bdetter theory. I actaully really like that
>one.
And I was just goofing. Imagine what this brain of mine could do were I ever to
put it to serious use.
I did the same sort of thing once on a paper about Emily Dickinson's "moment of
death" poems. It got a A+, my professor encouraged me to expand it to include
all of her death poems and cite passages from her letters. She had me submit it
to "Dickinson Studies" (a scholarly journal) and they actually published it.
So, while I may be a footnote in the odd (and I stress the word odd) college
term paper, if anyone asked me to explain anything about my paper, I'd be hard
pressed to remember what led me to the conclusions I made. I just had fun
making them.
Perhaps he means different things to each dreamer.
>
>The script call him the bald guy, but I'm sticking with the Cheese Man.
>The Cheese Man makes some space on the table for cheese for Willow. The
>
>table could represent her life and the cheese he has laid on the Table the
>
>upcoming deaths that will effect her, Joyce, Buffy and finally Tara.
How many slices of cheese? Or was he making room for Dawn? Therefore, Dawn
could be the cheese. But that would seriously ruin the whole
Buffy-as-a-cheese-liking-cat/rat theory.
>The cheeses (deaths) are already on the table when he get to Xander but
>they
>"will not protect" him.
Why would Xander need dead people to protect him?
The cheese isn't "protecting" him from the sounds following him, which I
interpreted as his dysfunctional family. So his dream could have more to do
with the ill-fated wedding than anything else. Buffy and his friends, not even
Anya, can protect him from his own family.
>Despite the fact that Buffy save the world with
>her death.
>Xander (and the world) are still left unprotected when faced withteh
>consequences of Tara's death, and it is up to Xander to protect himself
>(and
>save the world).
Wouldn't that make Buffy the cheese, then?
>Giles' makes the least sense, Is the cheese Man maybe trying to say that
>Giles
>will be and has been responsible for death. Ben's death maybe.
Or maybe he's trying to say Giles is going to go bald and consider a toupee?
Doubtful, but an argument could be made....
I don't see where you inferred it to mean Giles is responsible for death.
>And the most obvious is that the Cheese Man doesn't say anything to Buffy
>he
>doesn't need to he just presents her with the cheese (death).
Or maybe it has more to do with Riley leaving? That's where the whole
Buffy-likes-cheese thing began. Remember, Riley didn't figure much into that
episode. He was not a part of the movie fun, he didn't dream, and when he was
in Buffy's dream, he was talking about military stuff and a coffee pot. With
Adam.
>
>BUFFY: Ah... (Gets up) Well, at least you all didn't dream about that guy
>with the cheese. (Walks off.)
>(The others look up in surprise.)
>BUFFY: (offscreen) I don't know *where* the hell that came from.
>(The other three look at each other.)
>(Cut to Buffy emerging from the stairs into the upper hallway. Walks down
>the hall toward the bathroom. Frowns, turns, looks into her bedroom. Walks
>into the doorway, looking at her bed.)
>TARA VOICEOVER: You think you know ... what's to come ... what you are.
>
>You haven't even begun.
>(Long shot of the darkened bedroom, with Buffy framed in the doorway. She
>slowly backs away, turns and walks out of sight.)
I figured this meant Dawn was coming. Somewhere else -- or is it in Buffy's
coma dream? or a combination of the two? -- we hear something about 7:30, dawn,
and little sister.
>The Cheese Man is not meaningless! Never mind this quote "The cheese man
>
>..is the only thing in the show that means nothing. I needed something like
>
>that, something that couldn't be explained, because dreams always have that
>
>one element that is just RIDICULOUS." (The Bronze, joss, May 23 20:01
>2000).
Oh-- don't forget, in the Kathy episode, they're discussing dreams, and Kathy
overhears and asks Giles to interpret her dream.
I just love Restless because we get a precursor to the musical, when Giles
sings, "We have to warn Buffy!" and then something about being careful because
he'd just had his sofa steam cleaned. Gotta love it.
>
>ash
>
>"My lady, do not subdue my heart by anguish and pain
>But come to me as when before
>You heard my distant cry, and listened:
>..
>Then you my goddess with your immortal lips smiling
>Would ask what now afflicts me, why again
>I am calling and what now I with my restive heart
>Desired:
> Whom now shall I beguile
> To bring you to her love?
> Who now injures you, Sappho?
> For if she flees, soon shall she chase
> And, rejecting gifts, soon shall she give.
> If she does not love you, she shall do so soon
> Whatsoever is her will.
>Come to me now to end this consuming pain
>Bringing what my heart desires to be brought:
>Be yourself my ally in this fight."
> -A translation of the Sappho poem that Wilow writes on Tara's back.
Now, who on earth tracked down what that was? For all I knew it was squiggly
lines of paint.
Reina De Paréntesis
La Reina
>
>And there is the cat that comes back fromt he dead that Buffy finds in Dead
>
>Man's party.
>
>I'm not sure I want to go there.
Probably a wise move. I figure, sometimes a cat is just a cat.
La Reina,
officially halfway done with her kitty sitting duties (thank goodness -- I'm
running out of allergy pills)
Ashley Crowe
> Ash wrote:
>
> >After Amy comes back she no longer wants cheese:
> >Amy: Do you have any cookies?
> >BUFFY: Uh, yeah, w-what kind?
> >AMY: Any kind. Not cheese.
>
> Well, Buffy was a rat for like two hours. Amy for three years. Big difference.
And Buffy was actually dead for even less time. The brief death or half an
episode as a rat didn't stop her from liking cheese.
> >But Buffy still wants cheese. What is interesting is that Buffy is coded
> >as both the predator (cat) and the victim (mouse).
> >>
> >>But in another encounter with the first Slayer, Buffy's spirit guide is a feline,
> >>and she sees it and says, "Hello, Kitty."
> >
> >I forgot that part. There is a definate connection between the Slayer and
> >the Cat then.
>
> Or just a cute pop culture ref. Doesn't Willow wear a Hello Kitty t-shirt now
> and then?
Hello Kitty? I don't think so, she certainly wears some similiar shirts I don't
remember any shirts with copyrighted material on them (although their have
been plenty of bands posters)
> >From the Tough Love transcript:
<snip>
> >Buffy and Willow pull apart. Willow has tears in her eyes. She looks at
> >Tara who gives her a huge smile.
> >TARA: They kill mice.
> >Shot of Willow with tears on her cheeks.
> >BUFFY: Tara.
<snip>
> >
> >The "They kill mice" line was also repeated in the previously of Buffy for
> >Weight of the World.
> >
> >So Buffy (as a slayer) kills mice.
>
> But Tara says "they." She's talking to Buffy, not about her. Even if she looks
> at Willow, that was sort of like her greeting to Buffy.
And greeting here as someone who kills mice. A little odd.
> >But she is still a mouse (because she likes cheese). Buffy's going to kill
> >herself. Foreshadowing is a beautiful thing.
>
> That works.
:-) I love it when some sense can be crafted out of non-sense.
<snip>
> >> >7) Just to tie up ends if this mouse = death parallel is to be believed
> >> >then Amy has a big ol painful death coming her way (and I hope we get
> >> >to watch). I really don't like Amy.
> >>
> >> No one does. I hope you're right on this one!
> >
> >I want to see her and Andrew die bloody, Jonathan too.
>
> No. I like Jonathan. He helped Buffy by telling her to smash the orbs. And he
> offered to help in the bookstore, but Xander got all high & mighty on him.
Jonathan won't die bloody as long as certain producers are around. Jonathan
needs to redeem himself in order for me to like him again, and honestly I'd rather
focus on something else this season so maybe Jonathan and Andrew can just
disappear.
> >> >8 )By the time Restless airs Buffy has already died once (and already
> >> >been a rat once). But she still wants want mice want ("She like cheese")
> >> >maybe this represents her Slayer Death Wish.
> >>
> >> Cheese = death?
> >
> >maybe.
> >
> >Spike has said that all slayers have a death wish:
> >"Death is on your heels, baby, and sooner or later it's gonna catch you....
>
> Now, I'd totally buy into the cheese + death idea (or high cholestoral at
> least) if after he said that Buffy walked away with a bit of cheese stuck to
> her shoe.
I'm waiting for Buffy to say she doesn't like cheese, or Faith to come back and
make some comment about liking cheese.
> >And part of you wants it... not only to stop the fear and uncertainty,
> >but because you're just a little bit in love with it....Death is your art.
> >You make it with your hands, day after day....That final gasp. That look of
> >peace. Part of you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it lead
> >you? And now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or
> >the kicks you didn't land. Every Slayer... has a death wish....Even
> >you....The only reason you've lasted as long as you have is you've got ties
> >to the world... your mum, your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all tie you
> >here but you're just putting off the inevitable....Sooner or later, you're gonna
> >want it. And the second- the second-that happens...You know I'll be there.
> >I'll slip in... have myself a real good day."
> > -Fool for Love
I just cannot cut Spike's speech, I really love that speech.
>
> Okay, and if you want to get really out there with the analysis, we can go to
> the whole death = sexual ecstasy symbolism we learned back in British Lit.
> She wanted it, he slipped in, and they had themselves a real good day. Or
> night. Well, both, kind of.
I've actually tried to forget all teh british lit I learned but - Maybe not so much of
a reach. Buffy almost went there with Angel/Angelus conversion after sex.
Once Buffy started sleeping with Spike (in my opinion) he became less human
to her, not more. Death, sex and viloence were/are very closely tied to the
Spike/Buffy relationship.
<snip>
> >> Uh-oh.....another possibility. The Slayer's the cat. Vampires are the
> >> rats. Slayer cats kill the vampire rats. Buffy was a rat once, and a vampire
> >> once, ever so briefly. Buffy is a former rat/vampire cat who likes cheese.
> >> She likes what vampires like (cheese/darkness) -- which Spike spent the
> >> better part of season 6 pointing out to her. That all circles back to Riley,
> >> too, and Spike forever telling Riley he wasn't dark enough for Buffy.
> >
> >I like that but how do Joyce and Amy fit in.
>
> It made sense? I was just playing.
It made sense to me.
> Hmmm.....Amy likes darkness, because she's a
> witch, a magic junkie. That could fit. And Joyce? I just always thought the
> mice ticking her toes bit was foreshadowing her death. Lying in a grave with
> rodents sniffing about.
That does fit then.
ohhh look an on topic quote."I'm saying you got a darkness, you, Tim Bayliss,
you got a darkness inside of you. You gotta know the darker, uglier sides of
yourself. You gotta recognize them, so that they're not constantly sneaking up
on you. You gotta LOVE 'EM, 'cause they're part of you, because along with
your virtues, they make you who you are. Virtue isn't virtue unless it slams up
against vice. So consequently, your virtue's not real virtue. Until it's been
tested. . . tempted." - Pembleton, "A Many Splendored Thing"
> >> Okay, so I'm getting a bit silly, but if I really tried, maybe I could
> >> make a case for one or more of these scenarios.
> >
> >I think the second one is the better theory. I actually really like that
> >one.
>
> And I was just goofing. Imagine what this brain of mine could do were I ever
> to put it to serious use.
That's what people have been saying about me my whole life.
> I did the same sort of thing once on a paper about Emily Dickinson's "moment
> of death" poems. It got a A+, my professor encouraged me to expand it to
> include all of her death poems and cite passages from her letters. She had
> me submit it to "Dickinson Studies" (a scholarly journal) and they actually
> published it.
> So, while I may be a footnote in the odd (and I stress the word odd) college
> term paper, if anyone asked me to explain anything about my paper, I'd be
> hard pressed to remember what led me to the conclusions I made. I just had
> fun making them.
I love making conclusions, analyzing the heck out of something. My A+ paper
was about the use of movement to establish the narrator's auhority in To Kill a
Mockingbird. A great paper, I could have tried to go forward with it, but I was
too busy, I had a huge paper of Ned Rorem and TS Eliot and a thesis sized oral
history project going at the same time.
I love doing research, finding citations and analyzing texts, I'm just not much for
the paper writing part of academia. Yet I'm in grad school.
oh that leads into the debate of whether this is a shared dream or not.
> >
> >The script calls him the bald guy, but I'm sticking with the Cheese Man.
> >The Cheese Man makes some space on the table for cheese for Willow.
> >The table could represent her life and the cheese he has laid on the Table
> >the upcoming deaths that will effect her, Joyce, Buffy and finally Tara.
>
> How many slices of cheese? Or was he making room for Dawn? Therefore,
> Dawn could be the cheese. But that would seriously ruin the whole
> Buffy-as-a-cheese-liking-cat/rat theory.
Yes it would. How many slices of cheese....let me go cue a tape.There are
eleven slices of cheese. Hmmm Jesse, Buffy, Jenny, Angel, Joyce, Buffy, Tara,
Warren. That's eight meaningful deaths I can't get to 11 (yet maybe). Xander's
plate of cheese has 8 slices. The Cheese Man is wearing 3 slices of cheese for
Giles (Jenny, Joyce and Ben?)
> >The cheeses (deaths) are already on the table when he get to Xander but
> >they "will not protect" him.
>
> Why would Xander need dead people to protect him?
Isn't that what Buffy tries to do, always. Protect everyone, save the world. Esp
with her dive off the tower.
>
> The cheese isn't "protecting" him from the sounds following him, which I
> interpreted as his dysfunctional family. So his dream could have more to do
> with the ill-fated wedding than anything else. Buffy and his friends, not even
> Anya, can protect him from his own family.
and no one (except himself) can in the end, protect him from Willow and his
own death either.
>
> >Despite the fact that Buffy save the world with her death.
> >Xander (and the world) are still left unprotected when faced withteh
> >consequences of Tara's death, and it is up to Xander to protect himself
> >(and save the world).
>
> Wouldn't that make Buffy the cheese, then?
Yes the cheese, the mouse and the cat.
>
> >Giles' makes the least sense, Is the cheese Man maybe trying to say that
> >Giles will be and has been responsible for death. Ben's death maybe.
>
> Or maybe he's trying to say Giles is going to go bald and consider a toupee?
> Doubtful, but an argument could be made....
Ha!
>
> I don't see where you inferred it to mean Giles is responsible for death.
"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me." hmm let me try again. Wearing the
cheese and letting it wear you is the differnce between being active and
passive. Giles kills Ben not as Ripper but as Giles (he puts his glasses on to kill
Ben) I don't know I cannot make sense of it.
>
> >And the most obvious is that the Cheese Man doesn't say anything to Buffy
> >he doesn't need to he just presents her with the cheese (death).
>
> Or maybe it has more to do with Riley leaving? That's where the whole
> Buffy-likes-cheese thing began. Remember, Riley didn't figure much into that
> episode. He was not a part of the movie fun, he didn't dream, and when he
> was in Buffy's dream, he was talking about military stuff and a coffee pot.
> With Adam.
He is also in Willow's dream.
> >BUFFY: Ah... (Gets up) Well, at least you all didn't dream about that guy
> >with the cheese. (Walks off.)
> >(The others look up in surprise.)
> >BUFFY: (offscreen) I don't know *where* the hell that came from.
> >(The other three look at each other.)
> >(Cut to Buffy emerging from the stairs into the upper hallway. Walks down
> >the hall toward the bathroom. Frowns, turns, looks into her bedroom. Walks
> >into the doorway, looking at her bed.)
> >TARA VOICEOVER: You think you know ... what's to come ... what you
> > are.You haven't even begun.
> >(Long shot of the darkened bedroom, with Buffy framed in the doorway. She
> >slowly backs away, turns and walks out of sight.)
>
> I figured this meant Dawn was coming. Somewhere else -- or is it in Buffy's
> coma dream? or a combination of the two? -- we hear something about 7:30,
> dawn, and little sister.
Dawn, 7:30, little sister: that's the coma dream where Buffy and Faith are
making Buffy's bed with clean (white) sheets on to which Faith bleeds.
"Be back before dawn" is in Restless.
I think Restless foeshadows both Dawn coming and Buffy's upcoming death.
> >The Cheese Man is not meaningless! Never mind this quote "The cheese
> > man..is the only thing in the show that means nothing. I needed something
> >like that, something that couldn't be explained, because dreams always
> >have that one element that is just RIDICULOUS." (The Bronze, joss, May
> >23 20:01 2000).
>
> Oh-- don't forget, in the Kathy episode, they're discussing dreams, and Kathy
> overhears and asks Giles to interpret her dream.
and Giles' nightmares about Eigon (sp?) and the Nightmare episode, and Buffy
and Faith's shared dreams, and ... I love the dream sequences.
>
> I just love Restless because we get a precursor to the musical, when Giles
> sings, "We have to warn Buffy!" and then something about being careful
> because he'd just had his sofa steam cleaned. Gotta love it.
I love Restless there is just so much to pick apart. And Giles singing, never
bad.
<snip>
> >"My lady, do not subdue my heart by anguish and pain
> >But come to me as when before
> >You heard my distant cry, and listened:
<snip>
> >Come to me now to end this consuming pain
> >Bringing what my heart desires to be brought:
> >Be yourself my ally in this fight."
> > -A translation of the Sappho poem that Wilow writes on Tara's back.
>
> Now, who on earth tracked down what that was? For all I knew it was
> squiggly lines of paint.
oh you know some Buffy fan with far too much time on her hands who was
picking apart every detail in Restless. Not that I can imagine anyone doing that.
nope not at all.
ash
"I believe the subtext here is rapidly becoming,...text." -Giles, "Ted"
>
> Reina De Paréntesis
Keith Gow
lyrical:
I'm sorry, is that a Twin Peaks bash?
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>Keith Wrote:
>
>>
>>Anya - "She came from the grave much graver"
>>Spike - "First I'll kill her, then I'll save her"
>>Tara - "Everything is turning out so dark"
>>Buffy - "Going through the motions..."
>>Spike - "No, I'll save her, then I'll kill her"
>>Willow - "I think this line is mostly filler"
>>
>>- Walk Through the Fire (Cast), "Once More, With Feeling"
>
>I'm pretty sure Spike's first line there is, "First he'll kill her then I'll
>save her." At least on the DVD it looks/sounds like Spike's referring to the
>demon.
>
I'm sure it's much clearer on the DVD!
Here's hoping the soundtrack has a lyric booklet!
>And you left out Giles' like, "What's it going to take to strike a spark?"
>
Isn't that after all those lines? If it is, then I had to stop
somewhere and Willow's multi-layered joke line seemed the right place.
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>I asked:
>> >> >Does/will Restless have commentary?
>
>kw...@vicnet.net.au (Keith Gow) wrote:
>> >> Oh, yes it does. It's quite wonderful, yet Joss still doesn't address
>> >> some stuff that I'd love to ask him about!
>> >
>> >I'm looking forward to that then. And speaking of Restless. Have you ever
>> >seen the old annotated Restless webpage? I think it's been taken offline
>> >now but I probably have it somewhere on my hard drive.
>>
>> I didn't see that webpage.
>
>Well I'm darn happy to report that the site has been brought back (to a new
>home) a Restless exegesis: http://www.lead-to-
>gold.com/kipmanley/exegesis/exegesis.html I don't agree with all the points he
>makes and some of it may now be negated by Whedon's commetary but I think
>it is a wonderful attempt.
>
I'll check it out, ASAP.
>> >I have this whole theory about the Cheese Man in Restless and what he
>> >means but that's probably better suited for email, as what I quote in my sig
>> >for that matter.
>>
>> Well, as Joss says the Cheese Man means nothing...
>
>that is hogwash
>
As you have so well-proven.
However, Joss has said that it was mostly written as stream of
consciousness. Fully plotted, but still stream of conciousness. This
doesn't discount your theories, but these kind of unconcious
connections aren't surprising - just not necessarily intended.
>6) Going back to Restless, Joyce is buried in the walls playing with the
>mice. Joyce dies, the being buried in the walls bit foreshadows this.
Okay, I'm not going to comment on your points, except to say that I
see the evidence and appreciate your collecting it :-)
Joss comments that while he knew Joyce was going to die in the
upcoming season, her being in the walls *isn't* an allusion to this.
He reiterates that the episode is mostly about where the characters
are at that point and where they have been. Very little of "Restless"
is about the future - mainly the stuff about Dawn and "what you are...
you haven't even begun."
Interesting story, though. Michelle Trachtenberg, a long time friend
of SMG, visited the set of Buffy on the day they shot the "Be back
before dawn" scene in "Restless" - and Joss said he couldn't ignore
that karmic sign when SMG suggested MT audition for the part.
>>
>> ie. folds of the red curtain = red folds of the vagina, etc, etc.
>
>I've heard that one.
>
And here I was thinking that it was just a Twin Peaks dream reference!
My mind if obviously not dirty enough...
Buffy - "It's so crowded in here. I'm hot. Do you want to go for a
walk?"
Ford - "Uh, sure. That'd be nice."
Buffy - "I'll see you all tomorrow."
Angel - "Good night."
Ford - "Take care."
Awkward silence.
Xander - "Okay, once more, with tension."
- "Lie to Me"
Ashley
<snip>
> >Well I'm darn happy to report that the site has been brought back (to a new
> >home) a Restless exegesis: http://www.lead-to-
> >gold.com/kipmanley/exegesis/exegesis.html I don't agree with all the points he
> >makes and some of it may now be negated by Whedon's commetary but I think
> >it is a wonderful attempt.
>
> I'll check it out, ASAP.
I read it again last night. It is interesting to read something that was
written before season 5 started. Knowing the future of the characters
has certainly effected by reading of the show.
> >> >I have this whole theory about the Cheese Man in Restless and what he
> >> >means but that's probably better suited for email, as what I quote in my sig
> >> >for that matter.
> >>
> >> Well, as Joss says the Cheese Man means nothing...
> >
> >that is hogwash
>
> As you have so well-proven.
Thanks.
>
> However, Joss has said that it was mostly written as stream of
> consciousness. Fully plotted, but still stream of conciousness. This
> doesn't discount your theories, but these kind of unconcious
> connections aren't surprising - just not necessarily intended.
Joss has a hell of a unconscious then, because I remember him saying that
about alot of things but in retrospect the show seems so full of
connections and ties, esp this episode.
> >6) Going back to Restless, Joyce is buried in the walls playing with the
> >mice. Joyce dies, the being buried in the walls bit foreshadows this.
>
> Okay, I'm not going to comment on your points, except to say that I
> see the evidence and appreciate your collecting it :-)
>
> Joss comments that while he knew Joyce was going to die in the
> upcoming season, her being in the walls *isn't* an allusion to this.
> He reiterates that the episode is mostly about where the characters
> are at that point and where they have been. Very little of "Restless"
> is about the future - mainly the stuff about Dawn and "what you are...
> you haven't even begun."
He can't do that though. The show has already established that at least
two of the characters have prophetic dreams, Buffy and Giles. Buffy has
had a least a few prophetic slayer dreams, and this would certainly
qualify. Since Xander and Giles and Willow are all still connected to
Buffy and the power of The First Slayer, shouldn't their dreams be in
part prophetic?
> Interesting story, though. Michelle Trachtenberg, a long time friend
> of SMG, visited the set of Buffy on the day they shot the "Be back
> before dawn" scene in "Restless" - and Joss said he couldn't ignore
> that karmic sign when SMG suggested MT audition for the part.
I hadn't heard that before, that is a great story.
> >> ie. folds of the red curtain = red folds of the vagina, etc, etc.
> >
> >I've heard that one.
>
> And here I was thinking that it was just a Twin Peaks dream reference!
>
> My mind if obviously not dirty enough...
Well the gorgeous red sheets Tara is laying on start the use of red. It
is kinda hard to ignore after that.
aww that was what I was going to use next.
"The point is, though he goes through the motions of an intimate
seduction, the end result is the same. He turns them into a
vampire....Just be aware that he, he tends to form a relationship with
his prey. It's not enough for him to take her. She must want to be
taken. She must ... burn for him." -Giles, "Buffy vs. Dracula"
ash
La Reina
>> >From the Tough Love transcript:
><snip>
>> >Buffy and Willow pull apart. Willow has tears in her eyes. She looks
>at
>> >Tara who gives her a huge smile.
>> >TARA: They kill mice.
>> >Shot of Willow with tears on her cheeks.
>> >BUFFY: Tara.
><snip>
>> >
>> >The "They kill mice" line was also repeated in the previously of Buffy
>for
>> >Weight of the World.
>> >
>> >So Buffy (as a slayer) kills mice.
>>
>> But Tara says "they." She's talking to Buffy, not about her. Even if she
>looks
>> at Willow, that was sort of like her greeting to Buffy.
>
>And greeting here as someone who kills mice. A little odd.
I didn't get that she meant Buffy at all. Why use "they" when "she" would have
been more to the point --brain sucked or not? When Tara referred to Dawn as the
pure green energy, she said "it" so she still knew her pronouns.
>
>> >> >8 )By the time Restless airs Buffy has already died once (and already
>> >> >been a rat once). But she still wants want mice want ("She like cheese")
>> >> >maybe this represents her Slayer Death Wish.
>> >>
>> >> Cheese = death?
>> >
(snip)
>I'm waiting for Buffy to say she doesn't like cheese, or Faith to come back
>and
>make some comment about liking cheese.
Yeah, but then it would make it all too obvious. Then it wouldn't be any fun.
>
>> >And part of you wants it... not only to stop the fear and uncertainty,
>> >but because you're just a little bit in love with it....Death is your
>art.
>> >You make it with your hands, day after day....That final gasp. That look
>of
>> >peace. Part of you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it
>lead
>> >you? And now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw
>or
>> >the kicks you didn't land. Every Slayer... has a death wish....Even
>> >you....The only reason you've lasted as long as you have is you've got
>ties
>> >to the world... your mum, your brat kid sister, the Scoobies. They all
>tie you
>> >here but you're just putting off the inevitable....Sooner or later, you're
>gonna
>> >want it. And the second- the second-that happens...You know I'll be there.
>
>> >I'll slip in... have myself a real good day."
>> > -Fool for Love
>
>I just cannot cut Spike's speech, I really love that speech.
Me, too. Of course, James could read the phone book with his Spike voice and
I'd love it.
>>
>> Okay, and if you want to get really out there with the analysis, we can
>go to
>> the whole death = sexual ecstasy symbolism we learned back in British
>Lit.
>> She wanted it, he slipped in, and they had themselves a real good day.
>Or
>> night. Well, both, kind of.
>
>I've actually tried to forget all teh british lit I learned but - Maybe
>not so much of
>a reach. Buffy almost went there with Angel/Angelus conversion after sex.
>
>Once Buffy started sleeping with Spike (in my opinion) he became less human
>
>to her, not more. Death, sex and viloence were/are very closely tied to
>the
>Spike/Buffy relationship.
Well, given that I no longer get UPN (ARGHHHHH!), I had to resort to watching
my old tape of Seeing Red tonight.
Remember how we've already established that, for whatever reason, Buffy can't
lie to Spike because he sees right through her? Well, in the attempted rape
scene, just after he says she should have let Xander kill him, she says she
couldn't. Spike says it's because she loves him. She says no. He asks when
she's going to quit lying to herself, and she finally admits to "feelings" for
him, saying it can't be love because she can't love someone she can't trust.
Spike says love isn't about trust, "Trust is for old marrieds..." He says love
is heat and passion and fire. (Or whatever his exact words were.) Buffy says,
"Love like that doesn't last...." Since it follows his asking her when she's
going to stop lying to herself, this seems like another one of her tacit
admissions (along with citing Spike's "you always hurt the one you love"
cliche) of love. Afterall, she never denied feeling the passion and fire and
things Spike mentioned.
Wow. You turned the Buffy thread into something on topic.
>I love making conclusions, analyzing the heck out of something.
Gee, we hadn't noticed.
>> >I also think it is interesting to see what The Chees Man actually says,
>> >and to who.
>> >To Willow:
>> >(To the side, in the darkness, she sees a bald man wearing glasses.)
>> >BALD MAN: (whispers) I've made a little space for the cheese slices.
>> >(He shows her a table with slices of American cheese laid neatly in a
>row.)
Sorry. I forgot to state here earlier that I refuse to consider American Cheese
as actual cheese. Or food, for that matter. It's so bland and rubbery. Blech.
The calories and fat grams are not worth the horrid taste and texture.
>> Perhaps he means different things to each dreamer.
>
>oh that leads into the debate of whether this is a shared dream or not.
I don't think it was intended to be a shared dream. Just the elements of the
original slayer and the cheese man were shared.
>> How many slices of cheese? Or was he making room for Dawn? Therefore,
>
>> Dawn could be the cheese. But that would seriously ruin the whole
>> Buffy-as-a-cheese-liking-cat/rat theory.
>
>Yes it would. How many slices of cheese....let me go cue a tape.There are
>
>eleven slices of cheese. Hmmm Jesse, Buffy, Jenny, Angel, Joyce, Buffy,
>Tara,
>Warren. That's eight meaningful deaths I can't get to 11 (yet maybe). Xander's
>
>plate of cheese has 8 slices. The Cheese Man is wearing 3 slices of cheese
>for
>Giles (Jenny, Joyce and Ben?)
I think maybe that's a bit of a stretch, then. Is the number 11 symbolic of
anything?
>
>> >The cheeses (deaths) are already on the table when he get to Xander but
>> >they "will not protect" him.
>> Why would Xander need dead people to protect him?
>
>Isn't that what Buffy tries to do, always. Protect everyone, save the world.
>Esp
>with her dive off the tower.
Yeah, but she's alive again. Again. But Spike did save Xander a couple of
times. And Spike's still dead. Living dead, but dead.
>>
>> The cheese isn't "protecting" him from the sounds following him, which
>I
>> interpreted as his dysfunctional family. So his dream could have more
>to do
>> with the ill-fated wedding than anything else. Buffy and his friends,
>not even
>> Anya, can protect him from his own family.
>
>and no one (except himself) can in the end, protect him from Willow and
>his
>own death either.
Or the wrath of Anya.
On tonight's tape, I loved Anya's scene in the bar. At first she was trying to
get the girl to wish a curse on her ex-boyfriend. But Anya got so wrapped up in
her own problems, she ignored every wish the girl started to make. Some
vengeance demon. LOL! It showed her humanity within her demon self.
>> Wouldn't that make Buffy the cheese, then?
>
>Yes the cheese, the mouse and the cat.
Oh. So it's all about Buffy, then. Gee, why didn't they go and name the show
after her....oh,they did.
But if she's the cheese, the mouse, and the cat, I fear all the arguments lose
much of their impact.
>> I don't see where you inferred it to mean Giles is responsible for death.
>
>
>"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me." hmm let me try again. Wearing
>the
>cheese and letting it wear you is the differnce between being active and
>
>passive. Giles kills Ben not as Ripper but as Giles (he puts his glasses
>on to kill
>Ben) I don't know I cannot make sense of it.
Your theory and you can't make sense of it? Now I don't feel so bad.
>>
>> >And the most obvious is that the Cheese Man doesn't say anything to Buffy
>> >he doesn't need to he just presents her with the cheese (death).
>>
>> Or maybe it has more to do with Riley leaving? That's where the whole
>> Buffy-likes-cheese thing began. Remember, Riley didn't figure much into
>that
>> episode. He was not a part of the movie fun, he didn't dream, and when
>he
>> was in Buffy's dream, he was talking about military stuff and a coffee
>pot.
>> With Adam.
>
>He is also in Willow's dream.
So is Harmony -- I loved that whole pre-show scene and the "Death of a
Salesman" thing. Very funny. Ooh! Maybe the cheese guy is a sales rep for a
dairy!
(Did the sarcasm come through okay on that?)
>
>> >(Cut to Buffy emerging from the stairs into the upper hallway. Walks
>down
>> >the hall toward the bathroom. Frowns, turns, looks into her bedroom.
>Walks
>> >into the doorway, looking at her bed.)
>> >TARA VOICEOVER: You think you know ... what's to come ... what you
>> > are.You haven't even begun.
>> >(Long shot of the darkened bedroom, with Buffy framed in the doorway.
>She
>> >slowly backs away, turns and walks out of sight.)
>>
>> I figured this meant Dawn was coming. Somewhere else -- or is it in Buffy's
>> coma dream? or a combination of the two? -- we hear something about 7:30,
>
>> dawn, and little sister.
>
>Dawn, 7:30, little sister: that's the coma dream where Buffy and Faith are
>
>making Buffy's bed with clean (white) sheets on to which Faith bleeds.
>
>"Be back before dawn" is in Restless.
>
>I think Restless foeshadows both Dawn coming and Buffy's upcoming death.
The white sheet could be a burial shroud.
>> Oh-- don't forget, in the Kathy episode, they're discussing dreams, and
>Kathy
>> overhears and asks Giles to interpret her dream.
>
>and Giles' nightmares about Eigon (sp?)
I took those to be flashbacks, not nightmares.
>"I believe the subtext here is rapidly becoming,...text." -Giles, "Ted"
Giles got in some good lines.
When am I gonna get UPN back again? Only three weeks before the season
starts....
Reina De Paréntesis
L. Ross Raszewski
>
>I didn't get that she meant Buffy at all. Why use "they" when "she" would have
>been more to the point --brain sucked or not? When Tara referred to
Dawn as the
>pure green energy, she said "it" so she still knew her pronouns.
Perhaps taking 'they' to mean slayerkind in general -- certainly
apropriate given her earlier role as the voice of the first slayer.
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>When am I gonna get UPN back again? Only three weeks before the season
>starts....
>
And I still have no supplier.
Damn.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
>Keith Gow wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:35:20 GMT, Ashley Crowe <acr...@nc.rr.com>
>> waxed lyrical:
>
><snip>
>
>> >Well I'm darn happy to report that the site has been brought back (to a new
>> >home) a Restless exegesis: http://www.lead-to-
>> >gold.com/kipmanley/exegesis/exegesis.html I don't agree with all the points he
>> >makes and some of it may now be negated by Whedon's commetary but I think
>> >it is a wonderful attempt.
>>
>> I'll check it out, ASAP.
>
>I read it again last night. It is interesting to read something that was
>written before season 5 started. Knowing the future of the characters
>has certainly effected by reading of the show.
>
Okay, I have downloaded it and will certainly read it in the next day
or two.
>>
>> However, Joss has said that it was mostly written as stream of
>> consciousness. Fully plotted, but still stream of conciousness. This
>> doesn't discount your theories, but these kind of unconcious
>> connections aren't surprising - just not necessarily intended.
>
>Joss has a hell of a unconscious then, because I remember him saying that
>about alot of things but in retrospect the show seems so full of
>connections and ties, esp this episode.
>
Oh, I have no doubt his unconcious is *huge* and, remember, we don't
believe anything he says anymore anyway.
>> >6) Going back to Restless, Joyce is buried in the walls playing with the
>> >mice. Joyce dies, the being buried in the walls bit foreshadows this.
>>
>> Okay, I'm not going to comment on your points, except to say that I
>> see the evidence and appreciate your collecting it :-)
>>
>> Joss comments that while he knew Joyce was going to die in the
>> upcoming season, her being in the walls *isn't* an allusion to this.
>> He reiterates that the episode is mostly about where the characters
>> are at that point and where they have been. Very little of "Restless"
>> is about the future - mainly the stuff about Dawn and "what you are...
>> you haven't even begun."
>
>He can't do that though. The show has already established that at least
>two of the characters have prophetic dreams, Buffy and Giles. Buffy has
>had a least a few prophetic slayer dreams, and this would certainly
>qualify. Since Xander and Giles and Willow are all still connected to
>Buffy and the power of The First Slayer, shouldn't their dreams be in
>part prophetic?
>
Well I guess, in part. Does this mean every dream Buffy has is
prophetic, though? Or just parts?
I know Joss plans forthcoming seasons in much detail, but I'm not sure
he's really one for planting things one year to pay off in the next.
The biggest problem I have with his attempting to do this (the
Graduation Day dream) is that he alludes to Dawn then, yet the 730
clue points to Buffy's death. It's all so admirably vague that he can
be forgiven for not actually breaching internal logic, but it doesn't
make much sense outside the show.
(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
Willow - "It's bad bowling. It's a double date with all of us and
they're gonna know!"
Xander - "How are they gonna know?"
Willow - "It's a very intimate situation, it's all sexy with the smoke
and the sweating and the shoe rental..."
- "Lover's Walk"
-- Keith Gow --
L. Ross Raszewski
>
>(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
I suspect it had more than a little to do with wanting it to be a
"surprise" -- though the execution of this surprise left a little bit
to be desired. The show has a tradition of making the outcome
blindingly obvious from the beginning, then introducing twists that
make you doubt your original conclusion, only to have it turn out that
the obvious answer was the right one. I certainly had this experience
watching the Spike sequences; my initial reaction was "Oh, he's going
to get his soul back," then, after listening to him threaten to "give
the slayer (that bitch) what she deserves" for an hour or so, decided
"No, it can't be that," only to discover at the end that my first
instinct had been right (Maybe there's a thematic intentionality
there; that we, like the slayer, should trust instinct over reason)
>Willow - "It's bad bowling. It's a double date with all of us and
>they're gonna know!"
>Xander - "How are they gonna know?"
>Willow - "It's a very intimate situation, it's all sexy with the smoke
>and the sweating and the shoe rental..."
>- "Lover's Walk"
>
I prefer the simple:
"Xander, do not taunt the fear daemon."
"Why? Can it hurt me?"
"No; it's just tacky."
Shel
wrote:
>
>(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
Spike went to become what he "was before". He meant what he was
before the chip was planted in his head, i.e., a vampire able to harm
humans. The return of his soul was not what he had in mind, a
surprise to him as well as to viewers.
Of course, as you're the uberBuffoid, you know this already and I
simply misunderstood your post. Sorry.
--
Shel
Ashley
You took the words right out of my mouth.
ash
"Maybe it's time to start a new tradition... birthdays without
boyfriends. It could be just as much fun." "Preaching to the choir here,
baby." -Buffy and Willow, "Blood Ties"
Ashley
>
> Ash wrote:
>
<snip>
> >
> >> >> >8 )By the time Restless airs Buffy has already died once (and already
> >> >> >been a rat once). But she still wants want mice want ("She like cheese")
> >> >> >maybe this represents her Slayer Death Wish.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheese = death?
> >> >
> (snip)
>
> >I'm waiting for Buffy to say she doesn't like cheese, or Faith to come back
> >and make some comment about liking cheese.
>
> Yeah, but then it would make it all too obvious. Then it wouldn't be any fun.
Well in the end they made "death is your gift" line which was the
subject of much speculation pretty obvious so. it has been done before.
> >> >And part of you wants it... not only to stop the fear and uncertainty,
> >> >but because you're just a little bit in love with it....Death is your
> >> >art. You make it with your hands, day after day....That final gasp. That
> >> >look of peace. Part of you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where
> >> >does it lead you? And now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you
> >> >didn't throw or the kicks you didn't land. Every Slayer... has a death
> >> >wish....Even you....The only reason you've lasted as long as you have is
> >> >you've got tiesto the world... your mum, your brat kid sister, the
> >> >Scoobies. They all tie you here but you're just putting off the
> >> >inevitable....Sooner or later, you're gonna want it. And the second- the
> >> >second-that happens...You know I'll be there. I'll slip in... have
> >> >myself a real good day." -Fool for Love
> >
> >I just cannot cut Spike's speech, I really love that speech.
>
> Me, too. Of course, James could read the phone book with his Spike voice and
> I'd love it.
Have you seen the bonus features on the Season 2 DVD where James
Marsters and Juliet Landau have a conversation about Spike and Dru in
their normal speaking voices, very bizarre.
<snip>
> >Death, sex and viloence were/are very closely tied to the Spike/Buffy
> >relationship.
>
> Well, given that I no longer get UPN (ARGHHHHH!), I had to resort to watching
> my old tape of Seeing Red tonight.
>
> Remember how we've already established that, for whatever reason, Buffy can't
> lie to Spike because he sees right through her? Well, in the attempted rape
> scene, just after he says she should have let Xander kill him, she says she
> couldn't. Spike says it's because she loves him. She says no. He asks when
> she's going to quit lying to herself, and she finally admits to "feelings" for
> him, saying it can't be love because she can't love someone she can't trust.
>
> Spike says love isn't about trust, "Trust is for old marrieds..." He says love
> is heat and passion and fire. (Or whatever his exact words were.) Buffy says,
> "Love like that doesn't last...." Since it follows his asking her when she's
> going to stop lying to herself, this seems like another one of her tacit
> admissions (along with citing Spike's "you always hurt the one you love"
> cliche) of love. Afterall, she never denied feeling the passion and fire and
> things Spike mentioned.
Good point but i think she recognized that while this maybe a type of
love it is not a type of love she wants. You're trying to get me to
admit that Buffy loved Spike in some way? I'll admit that, but I don't
think she was in love with him, fully, ever.
>
> >> >> Uh-oh.....another possibility. The Slayer's the cat. Vampires are the
> >> >> rats. Slayer cats kill the vampire rats. Buffy was a rat once, and
> >> >> a vampire> once, ever so briefly. Buffy is a former rat/vampire cat who
> >> >> likes cheese. She likes what vampires like (cheese/darkness) -- which
> >> >> Spike spent the better part of season 6 pointing out to her. That all
> >> >> circles back to Riley, too, and Spike forever telling Riley he wasn't
> >> >> dark enough for Buffy.
> >> >
> >> >I like that but how do Joyce and Amy fit in.
<snip>
> >> Hmmm.....Amy likes darkness, because she's a witch, a magic junkie. That
> >> could fit. And Joyce? I just always thought the mice ticking her toes bit
> >> was foreshadowing her death. Lying in a grave with rodents sniffing about.
> >
> >That does fit then.
> >ohhh look an on topic quote."I'm saying you got a darkness, you, Tim Bayliss,
> >you got a darkness inside of you. You gotta know the darker, uglier sides
> >of yourself. You gotta recognize them, so that they're not constantly sneaking
> >up on you. You gotta LOVE 'EM, 'cause they're part of you, because along with
> >your virtues, they make you who you are. Virtue isn't virtue unless it slams
> >up against vice. So consequently, your virtue's not real virtue. Until it's
> >been tested. . . tempted." - Pembleton, "A Many Splendored Thing"
>
> Wow. You turned the Buffy thread into something on topic.
:-) I think that quote works rather well for a discussion of Faith as
well.
> >I love making conclusions, analyzing the heck out of something.
>
> Gee, we hadn't noticed.
*smirk*
<snip>
> Sorry. I forgot to state here earlier that I refuse to consider American Cheese
> as actual cheese. Or food, for that matter. It's so bland and rubbery. Blech.
> The calories and fat grams are not worth the horrid taste and texture.
But a grilled cheese loaded with sliced American cheese or Velveta is
great comfort food.
> >> Perhaps he means different things to each dreamer.
> >
> >oh that leads into the debate of whether this is a shared dream or not.
>
> I don't think it was intended to be a shared dream. Just the elements of the
> original slayer and the cheese man were shared.
Why do Willow and Xander (with his gaping chest wound) show up on the
couch in Giles dream then?
> >> How many slices of cheese? Or was he making room for Dawn? Therefore,
> >> Dawn could be the cheese. But that would seriously ruin the whole
> >> Buffy-as-a-cheese-liking-cat/rat theory.
> >
> >Yes it would. How many slices of cheese....let me go cue a tape.There are
> >eleven slices of cheese. Hmmm Jesse, Buffy, Jenny, Angel, Joyce, Buffy,
> >Tara, Warren. That's eight meaningful deaths I can't get to 11 (yet maybe).
> >Xander's plate of cheese has 8 slices. The Cheese Man is wearing 3 slices of
> >cheese for Giles (Jenny, Joyce and Ben?)
>
> I think maybe that's a bit of a stretch, then. Is the number 11 symbolic of
> anything?
But the fact that the Cheese Man rather deliberately holds two pieces of
cheese up to Buffy seems to represent her past and future death. I don't
think that is as much of a stretch.
I found quite a few thing on the symbolism of the number 11 most can be
found here:
http://www.greatdreams.com/eleven/num11.htm
I don't know what to make of it in Buffy though. Unless of course three
more characters significant to Willow die before the she leaves the
show.
Xander's moment of not being protected, of facing death and saving
himself, did come after 8 deaths though (and that is the amount of
cheese on his plate).
<snip>
> >> The cheese isn't "protecting" him from the sounds following him, which
> >> I interpreted as his dysfunctional family. So his dream could have more
> >> to do with the ill-fated wedding than anything else. Buffy and his friends,
> >> not even Anya, can protect him from his own family.
> >
> >and no one (except himself) can in the end, protect him from Willow and
> >his own death either.
>
> Or the wrath of Anya.
>
> On tonight's tape, I loved Anya's scene in the bar. At first she was trying to
> get the girl to wish a curse on her ex-boyfriend. But Anya got so wrapped up in
> her own problems, she ignored every wish the girl started to make. Some
> vengeance demon. LOL! It showed her humanity within her demon self.
Anya is fabulous in the episode I love the sense of comic timing she has
through out those last episodes when she is try to get everyone/anyone
to curse Xander, esp the conversation with Willow and Tara, "If you love
men so much, go, love men."
> >> Wouldn't that make Buffy the cheese, then?
> >
> >Yes the cheese, the mouse and the cat.
>
> Oh. So it's all about Buffy, then. Gee, why didn't they go and name the show
> after her....oh,they did.
>
> But if she's the cheese, the mouse, and the cat, I fear all the arguments lose
> much of their impact.
I don't think so that is what makes it interesting the fact that she
both the cat (Slayer) who kills things, and the mouse (represented by
cheese-death) show that not only is she going to die but she is going to
die at her own hand, or rather her own leap.
> >> I don't see where you inferred it to mean Giles is responsible for death.
> >
> >"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me." hmm let me try again. Wearing
> >the cheese and letting it wear you is the differnce between being active and
> >passive. Giles kills Ben not as Ripper but as Giles (he puts his glasses
> >on to kill Ben) I don't know I cannot make sense of it.
>
> Your theory and you can't make sense of it? Now I don't feel so bad.
Hey I like I've gone a long way towards making sense of the Cheese Man I
just cannot get there. It like how I'm sure the Dawn is part Buffy and
part Faith but I cannot quite get all the pieces of the puzzle placed
correctly.
<snip>
>
> So is Harmony -- I loved that whole pre-show scene and the "Death of a
> Salesman" thing. Very funny. Ooh! Maybe the cheese guy is a sales rep for a
> dairy!
>
> (Did the sarcasm come through okay on that?)
yep. I do love how Willow interprets Riley in her dream that cracks me
up, and Giles is great. That whole scene is very funny.
<snip>
> >Dawn, 7:30, little sister: that's the coma dream where Buffy and Faith are
> >making Buffy's bed with clean (white) sheets on to which Faith bleeds.
> >
> >"Be back before dawn" is in Restless.
> >
> >I think Restless foreshadows both Dawn coming and Buffy's upcoming death.
>
> The white sheet could be a burial shroud.
could be. Faith and Buffy's dreams are very interesting I never can
quite make sense of them.
>
> >> Oh-- don't forget, in the Kathy episode, they're discussing dreams, and
> >> Kathy overhears and asks Giles to interpret her dream.
> >
> >and Giles' nightmares about Eigon (sp?)
>
> I took those to be flashbacks, not nightmares.
I thought those were flashbacks in his nightmares.
> >"I believe the subtext here is rapidly becoming,...text." -Giles, "Ted"
>
> Giles got in some good lines.
that he did
ash
"Am I right, Giles?" "I'm almost certain you're not, but to be fair, I
wasn't listening." -Buffy and Giles, "Shadow"
Ashley
> On 3 Sep 2002 09:11:47 -0700, acr...@nc.rr.com (Ashley) waxed lyrical:
> >Keith Gow wrote:
> >> On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:35:20 GMT, Ashley Crowe <acr...@nc.rr.com>
> >> waxed lyrical:
> >>
> >> However, Joss has said that it was mostly written as stream of
> >> consciousness. Fully plotted, but still stream of conciousness. This
> >> doesn't discount your theories, but these kind of unconcious
> >> connections aren't surprising - just not necessarily intended.
> >
> >about alot of things but in retrospect the show seems so full of
> >connections and ties, esp this episode.
> Oh, I have no doubt his unconcious is *huge* and, remember, we don't
> believe anything he says anymore anyway.
*smirk*
<snip>
> >> Joss comments that while he knew Joyce was going to die in the
> >> upcoming season, her being in the walls *isn't* an allusion to this.
> >> He reiterates that the episode is mostly about where the characters
> >> are at that point and where they have been. Very little of "Restless"
> >> is about the future - mainly the stuff about Dawn and "what you are...
> >> you haven't even begun."
> >
> >He can't do that though. The show has already established that at least
> >two of the characters have prophetic dreams, Buffy and Giles. Buffy has
> >had a least a few prophetic slayer dreams, and this would certainly
> >qualify. Since Xander and Giles and Willow are all still connected to
> >Buffy and the power of The First Slayer, shouldn't their dreams be in
> >part prophetic?
>
> Well I guess, in part. Does this mean every dream Buffy has is
> prophetic, though? Or just parts?
she has "Slayer dreams" as she refers to them, that seem to differ from
her regular dreams. This one, since the First is present, would I think
quality as a "Slayer dream"
>
> I know Joss plans forthcoming seasons in much detail, but I'm not sure
> he's really one for planting things one year to pay off in the next.
Well he did tell Amber Benson circa Restless that her character was
going to die by gun shot. And when Kristine Sutherland asked for
additional time off during season 4 to travel he told her okay but he
was going to need her more in season 5 so her could kill her off, so
clearly he is think pretty far ahead.
>
> The biggest problem I have with his attempting to do this (the
> Graduation Day dream) is that he alludes to Dawn then, yet the 730
> clue points to Buffy's death. It's all so admirably vague that he can
> be forgiven for not actually breaching internal logic, but it doesn't
> make much sense outside the show.
The to Faith dreams in Graduation Day (the one in Faith's Apartment) and
This Year's Girl (the one at Buffy's bed) are a whole nother ball of
was. And so much more confusing.
> (Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
> no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
> going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
> can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
> he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
"So how come I don't wanna bite you? And why am I fightin' other
vampires? I must be a noble vampire. A good guy. On a mission of
redemption. I help the hopeless. I'm a vampire with a soul." -Spike
"A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?" -Buffy
"I'm a hero really. I mean, to be cast such an ugly lot in life and then
to rise above it. To seek out better, nobler things. It's inspirational,
isn't it? And the two of us... natural enemies, thrown together to stand
against the forces of darkness. Utter trust. No thought of me biting
you, no thought of you staking me."- Spike, "Tabula Rasa"
> >aww that was what I was going to use next.
> >
> >"The point is, though he goes through the motions of an intimate
> >seduction, the end result is the same. He turns them into a
> >vampire....Just be aware that he, he tends to form a relationship with
> >his prey. It's not enough for him to take her. She must want to be
> >taken. She must ... burn for him." -Giles, "Buffy vs. Dracula"
>
> Willow - "It's bad bowling. It's a double date with all of us and
> they're gonna know!"
> Xander - "How are they gonna know?"
> Willow - "It's a very intimate situation, it's all sexy with the smoke
> and the sweating and the shoe rental..."
> - "Lover's Walk"
"I just love to see you squirm." "Yes, well, I, uh... trust I gave
good... squirm." "Did anyone ever tell you you're kind of a
fuddy-duddy?" "Nobody ever seems to tell me anything else." "Did anyone
ever tell you you're kind of a sexy fuddy-duddy?" "Well, no. Actually
that, that part usually gets left out. I c-can't imagine why." -Jenny
and Giles, "The Dark Age"
La Reina
>
>Well I guess, in part. Does this mean every dream Buffy has is
>prophetic, though? Or just parts?
They've stated more than once that very few of Buffy's dreams are, in fact,
prophetic. Like when she turned 17 and dreamed Dru was alive and killed Angel.
She felt it was going to come true, and Giles told her not to worry, just
because she'd had that one earlier dream come true didn't mean this one would.
He may have said it's very rare, but I'm not certain. Of course, that dream did
turn out to be prophetic.
>The biggest problem I have with his attempting to do this (the
>Graduation Day dream) is that he alludes to Dawn then, yet the 730
>clue points to Buffy's death.
I've never understood how 7:30 indicates Buffy's death. How? To me, depending
on the time of year, 7:30 is a lot closer to Dawn.
>It's all so admirably vague that he can
>be forgiven for not actually breaching internal logic, but it doesn't
>make much sense outside the show.
>
>(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
And then again, Spike's shown many times that he doesn't always think thing
through to the end. That's even easier to fall back on: "Hey, wait! I didn't
mean *that* former self! I meant the evil one!"
Reina De Paréntesis
La Reina
>On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 05:19:56 GMT, kw...@vicnet.net.au (Keith Gow)
>wrote:
>>
>>(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>>no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>>going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>>can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>>he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
>
>Spike went to become what he "was before". He meant what he was
>before the chip was planted in his head, i.e., a vampire able to harm
>humans. The return of his soul was not what he had in mind, a
>surprise to him as well as to viewers.
Spike never was clear on what he meant. He never said he wanted to be the evil
vampire he was before. He may have assumed that was what the demon meant, since
it was the demon who talked about what a fierce vampire warrior Spike had once
been.
But Spikey seems to have momentarily forgotten he also once was William. So,
taken literally, it could go either way.
Reina De Paréntesis
La Reina
>"So how come I don't wanna bite you? And why am I fightin' other
>vampires? I must be a noble vampire. A good guy. On a mission of
>redemption. I help the hopeless. I'm a vampire with a soul." -Spike
>"A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?" -Buffy
>"I'm a hero really. I mean, to be cast such an ugly lot in life and then
>to rise above it. To seek out better, nobler things. It's inspirational,
>isn't it? And the two of us... natural enemies, thrown together to stand
>against the forces of darkness. Utter trust. No thought of me biting
>you, no thought of you staking me."- Spike, "Tabula Rasa"
>>
To which Buffy replied something like, "Depends on how long you keep
yammering." (Spike does like to talk, ya know.)
Reina De Paréntesis
La Reina
>> Me, too. Of course, James could read the phone book with his Spike voice
>and
>> I'd love it.
Ash asked:
>
>Have you seen the bonus features on the Season 2 DVD where James
>Marsters and Juliet Landau have a conversation about Spike and Dru in
>their normal speaking voices, very bizarre.
I haven't seen any of the DVD extras. I did once read an interview they gave
(written by someone else perhaps?) as Spike & Dru. I think it ran in
Entertainment Weekly a *long* time ago. Quite funny, though.
Oh, I agree. It's just that this seemed to get her to actually think about it
instead of denying it. Even Spike knew that was the case when he told Clem, "We
were never togther, not really." (I like Clem.)
>
>> Sorry. I forgot to state here earlier that I refuse to consider American
>Cheese
>> as actual cheese. Or food, for that matter. It's so bland and rubbery.
>Blech.
>> The calories and fat grams are not worth the horrid taste and texture.
>
>But a grilled cheese loaded with sliced American cheese or Velveta is
>great comfort food.
I'll pretend I didn't read that. Velveta? The work of the devil.
>
>> >> Perhaps he means different things to each dreamer.
>> >
>> >oh that leads into the debate of whether this is a shared dream or not.
>>
>> I don't think it was intended to be a shared dream. Just the elements
>of the
>> original slayer and the cheese man were shared.
>
>Why do Willow and Xander (with his gaping chest wound) show up on the
>couch in Giles dream then?
Oh, get technical on me. Phooey. Um, because Giles dreamed it that way. I can
see them on hsi couch in the Bronze without it being a shared dream, but the
gaping chest wound.....hmmm. Not sure how that got in there.
>
>But the fact that the Cheese Man rather deliberately holds two pieces of
>cheese up to Buffy seems to represent her past and future death. I don't
>think that is as much of a stretch.
Maybe it's just because he only has two hands. That fake cheesey stuff is kinda
floppy.
>I found quite a few thing on the symbolism of the number 11 most can be
>found here:
>http://www.greatdreams.com/eleven/num11.htm
>I don't know what to make of it in Buffy though.
"The Master Number" has no significance to you? Cheeseman is the Master's alter
ego.
Yeah, I'm being sarcastic....but maybe there is something to the Master aspect.
If anyone went so far as to research the meanin gof the number 11 and stumbled
upon the same info. Speaking as a writer, more often that not we just choose a
number or something because it sounds good or looks right on the page -- unless
it's really important to the meaning of the story. And if we have to dig this
hard, I doubt that's the case.
>Unless of course three
>more characters significant to Willow die before the she leaves the
>show.
>Xander's moment of not being protected, of facing death and saving
>himself, did come after 8 deaths though (and that is the amount of
>cheese on his plate)
So if it were a shared dream, don't you think Xander woul dbe wondering why he
got shorted on the cheese? LOL.
>> On tonight's tape, I loved Anya's scene in the bar. At first she was trying
>to
>> get the girl to wish a curse on her ex-boyfriend. But Anya got so wrapped
>up in
>> her own problems, she ignored every wish the girl started to make. Some
>> vengeance demon. LOL! It showed her humanity within her demon self.
>
>Anya is fabulous in the episode I love the sense of comic timing she has
>through out those last episodes when she is try to get everyone/anyone
>to curse Xander, esp the conversation with Willow and Tara, "If you love
>men so much, go, love men."
Emma's always been great at comic timing, and the really touching emotional
stuff too. Her acting is why Anya's one of my favorite characters on the show.
>> But if she's the cheese, the mouse, and the cat, I fear all the arguments
>lose
>> much of their impact.
>
>I don't think so that is what makes it interesting the fact that she
>both the cat (Slayer) who kills things, and the mouse (represented by
>cheese-death) show that not only is she going to die but she is going to
>die at her own hand, or rather her own leap.
Yet she managed to steer clear of the rat traps when she was an actual rat.
Reina De Paréntesis
Ashley Crowe
wrote:
If I had a second VCR I'd help yall out, sorry.
Ashley Crowe
darn close.
"Depends on how long you keep on yapping."
I think Spike's comments could be take as a meta-narrative on the whole Angel
plotline or/and foreshadowing what Spike would become.
Spike, when stripped of his memory "became" a good guy vampire with a soul.
Says alot about which one of his former selves was riding shotgun in his mind in
the battle between William the Bloody and William the Bloody Awful Poet.
ash
"I told you. I want to stop Angel. I want to save the world." -Spike
"Okay. You do remember that you're a vampire, right?" -Buffy
"We like to talk big. Vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' That's just
tough guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth
is, I like this world. You've got... dog racing, Manchester United. And you've
got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all
right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion
for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester
Bloody Square. You know what I'm saying?" -Spike
.."You're pathetic. " -Buffy
..."I can't fight them both alone, and neither can you!" -Spike
"I hate you." - Buffy
"And I'm all you've got. " -Spike
-Becoming Part 2
>
>
> Reina De Paréntesis
Ashley Crowe
> After I said:
>
> >> Me, too. Of course, James could read the phone book with his Spike
> >> voice and I'd love it.
>
> Ash asked:
> >Have you seen the bonus features on the Season 2 DVD where James
> >Marsters and Juliet Landau have a conversation about Spike and Dru in
> >their normal speaking voices, very bizarre.
>
> I haven't seen any of the DVD extras. I did once read an interview they gave
> (written by someone else perhaps?) as Spike & Dru. I think it ran in
> Entertainment Weekly a *long* time ago. Quite funny, though.
Didn't see that. The interview in question is in (I think) the "Buffy Bestiary"
special featurette. Just in case you ever sit down with the DVD.
> >> Remember how we've already established that, for whatever reason, Buffy
> >> can't lie to Spike because he sees right through her? Well, in the
> >> attempted rape scene, just after he says she should have let Xander kill
> >> him, she says she couldn't. Spike says it's because she loves him. She
> >> says no. He asks when she's going to quit lying to herself, and she finally
> >> admits to "feelings" for him, saying it can't be love because she can't love
> >> someone she can't trust.
> >>
> >> Spike says love isn't about trust, "Trust is for old marrieds..." He says
> >> love is heat and passion and fire. (Or whatever his exact words were.)
> >> Buffy says, "Love like that doesn't last...." Since it follows his asking her
> >> when she's going to stop lying to herself, this seems like another one of
> >> her tacit admissions (along with citing Spike's "you always hurt the one
> >> you love" cliche) of love. Afterall, she never denied feeling the passion
> >> and fire and things Spike mentioned.
> >
> >Good point but i think she recognized that while this maybe a type of
> >love it is not a type of love she wants. You're trying to get me to
> >admit that Buffy loved Spike in some way? I'll admit that, but I don't
> >think she was in love with him, fully, ever.
>
> Oh, I agree. It's just that this seemed to get her to actually think about it
> instead of denying it. Even Spike knew that was the case when he told Clem,
>"We were never togther, not really." (I like Clem.)
But since at least seemed to want to believe that their warped love meant they
were in love. Buffy never did.
I like Clem too, he was often the most amusing and endearing character on the
screen, not that that is saying much.
> >> Sorry. I forgot to state here earlier that I refuse to consider American
> >> Cheese as actual cheese. Or food, for that matter. It's so bland and
> >> rubbery. Blech. The calories and fat grams are not worth the horrid taste
> >> and texture.
> >
> >But a grilled cheese loaded with sliced American cheese or Velveta is
> >great comfort food.
>
> I'll pretend I didn't read that. Velveta? The work of the devil.
I don't care if it's not real cheese. It makes wonderfully smooth cheese grits,
great grilled cheeses, and great broccoli and cheese casserole. So it doesn't
need to be refrigerated, and has more not cheese than cheese in it. It is still
good.
Hey, at least I'm not listing the virtues of CheeseWiz (because in has none in
my mind).
> >> >> Perhaps he means different things to each dreamer.
> >> >
> >> >oh that leads into the debate of whether this is a shared dream or not.
> >>
> >> I don't think it was intended to be a shared dream. Just the elements
> >> of the original slayer and the cheese man were shared.
> >
> >Why do Willow and Xander (with his gaping chest wound) show up on the
> >couch in Giles dream then?
>
> Oh, get technical on me. Phooey. Um, because Giles dreamed it that way. I
> can see them on hsi couch in the Bronze without it being a shared dream, but
> the gaping chest wound.....hmmm. Not sure how that got in there.
Actually I'm not sure how much of the dream is shared. But there is clearly some
carry over from one drem to the next.
> >But the fact that the Cheese Man rather deliberately holds two pieces of
> >cheese up to Buffy seems to represent her past and future death. I don't
> >think that is as much of a stretch.
>
> Maybe it's just because he only has two hands. That fake cheesey stuff is
> kinda floppy.
>
> >I found quite a few thing on the symbolism of the number 11 most can be
> >found here: http://www.greatdreams.com/eleven/num11.htm
> >I don't know what to make of it in Buffy though.
>
> "The Master Number" has no significance to you? Cheeseman is the
> Master's alter ego.
>
> Yeah, I'm being sarcastic....but maybe there is something to the Master
> aspect. If anyone went so far as to research the meanin gof the number 11
> and stumbled upon the same info. Speaking as a writer, more often that not
> we just choose a number or something because it sounds good or looks right
> on the page -- unless it's really important to the meaning of the story. And if
> we have to dig this hard, I doubt that's the case.
Well Keith has the DVD commentary. Does Joss provide any insight into the
Cheese Man or does he stick by that "the cheese man is meaningless " bs.
Starting (I think) in season 5 Xander and Willow (and some other folks I'm sure)
occasionally wear t-shirts with big block numbers on them. I remember Marti
Noxon (I think) being asked all sorts of questions about the numbers, did they
represent favorite episodes, or any number of other things? she said the
numbers were meaningless, but seemed amused that anyone was trying to read
Buffy that closely. Buffy invites a close reading.
> >Unless of course three
> >more characters significant to Willow die before the she leaves the
> >show.
> >Xander's moment of not being protected, of facing death and saving
> >himself, did come after 8 deaths though (and that is the amount of
> >cheese on his plate)
>
> So if it were a shared dream, don't you think Xander woul dbe wondering why
> he got shorted on the cheese? LOL.
LOL! Well he certainly has some interesting thoughts about Willow's girlfriend,
but I think he is above cheese envy.
> >> On tonight's tape, I loved Anya's scene in the bar. At first she was trying
> >> to get the girl to wish a curse on her ex-boyfriend. But Anya got so
> >> wrapped up in her own problems, she ignored every wish the girl started to
> >> make. Some vengeance demon. LOL! It showed her humanity within her
> >> demon self.
> >Anya is fabulous in the episode I love the sense of comic timing she has
> >through out those last episodes when she is try to get everyone/anyone
> >to curse Xander, esp the conversation with Willow and Tara, "If you love
> >men so much, go, love men."
>
> Emma's always been great at comic timing, and the really touching emotional
> stuff too. Her acting is why Anya's one of my favorite characters on the show.
Her range is wonderful. She is usually pretty strictly used (and under-used) for
comedic purposes but when she is given a meaty sad scene she does so
brilliantly.
In The Body
And in Hell's Bells both while practicing her vows and later when you can
literally see her heart breaking.
> >> But if she's the cheese, the mouse, and the cat, I fear all the arguments
> >> lose much of their impact.
> >
> >I don't think so that is what makes it interesting the fact that she
> >both the cat (Slayer) who kills things, and the mouse (represented by
> >cheese-death) show that not only is she going to die but she is going to
> >die at her own hand, or rather her own leap.
>
> Yet she managed to steer clear of the rat traps when she was an actual rat.
And she hasn't died permanently yet either.
ash
"'I do however entrust you ... um, with my heart. Take care of my heart, won't
you please? Take care of it because, it's all that I have. And, if you let me, I'll
take care of your heart too.' " -Anya, "Hell's Bells"
"Okay. For the last time. 'I, Anya, want to marry you, Xander, because ... I love
you and I'll always love you. And ... before I knew you, I was like a completely
different person. Not even a person, really... ...and I had seen what love could
do to people, and it was ... hurt and sadness. Alone was better. And then,
suddenly there was you, and ... you knew me. You saw me, and it was this ...
thing. You make me feel safe and warm. So, I get it now. I finally get love,
Xander. I really do.'" -Anya, "Hell's Bells"
>
>
> Reina De Paréntesis
Keith Gow
waxed lyrical:
>Well Keith has the DVD commentary. Does Joss provide any insight into the
>Cheese Man or does he stick by that "the cheese man is meaningless " bs.
>
Of course he sticks to that BS, because that's what he believes. Now
if someone was to send him this cheese analysis, I'm sure he might
reconsider his position, as all writers have the right to do, but he
put him in to be meaningless. He had no intention of him meaning
anything. Yet it might be a throwaway reference to Buffy likes cheese,
set up that year - also as a throwaway gag. Joss just might not have
known he was doing it.
Re: "I wear the cheese, the cheese does not wear me" is a reference to
the Leonardo Di Caprio version of The Man in the Iron Mask in which he
says "I wear the mask, the mask does not wear me." I think that's
about as much meaning as Joss ascribes anything the Cheese Man does -
except for being there for the punchline at the end.
>Starting (I think) in season 5 Xander and Willow (and some other folks I'm sure)
>occasionally wear t-shirts with big block numbers on them. I remember Marti
>Noxon (I think) being asked all sorts of questions about the numbers, did they
>represent favorite episodes, or any number of other things? she said the
>numbers were meaningless, but seemed amused that anyone was trying to read
>Buffy that closely. Buffy invites a close reading.
>
Yes it does. And I guess we've all got to decide where we draw the
line. I've spent 10 years pouring over analysis of Twin Peaks to the
point where I cannot read any more analysis on it. Because even if
someone came up with something new it would either be a retread of
something else or something that really is pulled out of nowhere. I
think the numbers on the shirts is Buffy's equivalent of finding
meaning where there is none.
>> >Unless of course three
>> >more characters significant to Willow die before the she leaves the
>> >show.
>> >Xander's moment of not being protected, of facing death and saving
>> >himself, did come after 8 deaths though (and that is the amount of
>> >cheese on his plate)
>>
>> So if it were a shared dream, don't you think Xander woul dbe wondering why
>> he got shorted on the cheese? LOL.
>
>LOL! Well he certainly has some interesting thoughts about Willow's girlfriend,
>but I think he is above cheese envy.
>
Plus Xander's dream has the longest lesbian kiss *not* seen on TV!
>Her range is wonderful. She is usually pretty strictly used (and under-used) for
>comedic purposes but when she is given a meaty sad scene she does so
>brilliantly.
>In The Body
>And in Hell's Bells both while practicing her vows and later when you can
>literally see her heart breaking.
>
I can't wait to see episode five of this upcoming season. Don't worry,
La Reina, no spoilers but it is reportedly titled "Anya". Which makes
her unique in the Buffyverse, right? No other main character has had
an ep named after them...
Oh, damn, there was that ep of Angel called "Darla"... but apart from
that...
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 05:19:56 GMT, kw...@vicnet.net.au (Keith Gow)
>wrote:
>>
>>(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>>no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>>going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>>can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>>he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
>
>Spike went to become what he "was before". He meant what he was
>before the chip was planted in his head, i.e., a vampire able to harm
>humans. The return of his soul was not what he had in mind, a
>surprise to him as well as to viewers.
>
Yes, this is what I thought when I watched the show. Yet some people
(read: Joss Whedon and co) have publicly stated he went looking for
his soul.
>Of course, as you're the uberBuffoid, you know this already and I
>simply misunderstood your post. Sorry.
>
No, you got it. I wish it had been left oblique, yet the question will
come up this season. And based on what Joss has said, we'll be hearing
Spike say "I went looking for my soul, Buffy"... or something similar.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>Keith wrote:
>
>>
>>Well I guess, in part. Does this mean every dream Buffy has is
>>prophetic, though? Or just parts?
>
>They've stated more than once that very few of Buffy's dreams are, in fact,
>prophetic. Like when she turned 17 and dreamed Dru was alive and killed Angel.
>She felt it was going to come true, and Giles told her not to worry, just
>because she'd had that one earlier dream come true didn't mean this one would.
>He may have said it's very rare, but I'm not certain. Of course, that dream did
>turn out to be prophetic.
>
That sounds familiar.
>>The biggest problem I have with his attempting to do this (the
>>Graduation Day dream) is that he alludes to Dawn then, yet the 730
>>clue points to Buffy's death.
>
>I've never understood how 7:30 indicates Buffy's death. How? To me, depending
>on the time of year, 7:30 is a lot closer to Dawn.
>
As Faith said it originally, "Counting down from Seven Three O". 730
days is exactly two years - pointing to something happening two years
after Graduation Day. ie. Buffy's death
In Restless, Joss seems to be re-writing prophecy by having Tara look
at the clock reading 7:30 and saying it's wrong. Meaning, the
Graduation Day dream was incorrect.
Plus you're forgetting that Buffy died at dawn. She threw herself off
that tower just as the sun rose.
>>It's all so admirably vague that he can
>>be forgiven for not actually breaching internal logic, but it doesn't
>>make much sense outside the show.
>>
>>(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>>no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>>going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>>can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>>he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
>
>
>And then again, Spike's shown many times that he doesn't always think thing
>through to the end. That's even easier to fall back on: "Hey, wait! I didn't
>mean *that* former self! I meant the evil one!"
Yes, I know. Yet Joss has said recently that Spike went looking for
his soul and it was purposely vague to trick the audience.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
Raszewski) waxed lyrical:
>On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 05:19:56 GMT, Keith Gow <kw...@vicnet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>(Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>>no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>>going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>>can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>>he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
>
>I suspect it had more than a little to do with wanting it to be a
>"surprise" -- though the execution of this surprise left a little bit
>to be desired. The show has a tradition of making the outcome
>blindingly obvious from the beginning, then introducing twists that
>make you doubt your original conclusion, only to have it turn out that
>the obvious answer was the right one. I certainly had this experience
>watching the Spike sequences; my initial reaction was "Oh, he's going
>to get his soul back," then, after listening to him threaten to "give
>the slayer (that bitch) what she deserves" for an hour or so, decided
>"No, it can't be that," only to discover at the end that my first
>instinct had been right (Maybe there's a thematic intentionality
>there; that we, like the slayer, should trust instinct over reason)
>
I feel it was basically a cheat. Although kudos for you thinking
"soul" because the audience has been trained to think about his chip
from Season 4.
I'm not sure what the motivation for getting his soul back would be,
though. He's still a vamp. He's still got a chip in his head. Does
that really solve his problem?
The writers wanted a surprise ending. Obviously they wanted Spike to
do the noble thing, yet I find it infinitely more interesting that he
wanted to do the evil thing and got stuck with a soul.
The idea he went looking for his soul and got it means everything is
starting to work out for old Spikey. This can't last.
-- Keith Gow --
Keith Gow
>> Well I guess, in part. Does this mean every dream Buffy has is
>> prophetic, though? Or just parts?
>
>she has "Slayer dreams" as she refers to them, that seem to differ from
>her regular dreams. This one, since the First is present, would I think
>quality as a "Slayer dream"
>>
Excellent point, Dr Watson.
>> I know Joss plans forthcoming seasons in much detail, but I'm not sure
>> he's really one for planting things one year to pay off in the next.
>
>Well he did tell Amber Benson circa Restless that her character was
>going to die by gun shot. And when Kristine Sutherland asked for
>additional time off during season 4 to travel he told her okay but he
>was going to need her more in season 5 so her could kill her off, so
>clearly he is think pretty far ahead.
>>
Yes, but in very broad strokes, I imagine. From what he says.
>> (Take Spike's trip to Africa. His dialogue is so oblique that we have
>> no idea what his motivation is. And in retrospect, the idea of him
>> going to get his soul back still doesn't make perfect sense. But we
>> can't take Joss to task because he wasn't very commital. It was like
>> he wanted to have the option of not doing the soul thing...)
>
>"So how come I don't wanna bite you? And why am I fightin' other
>vampires? I must be a noble vampire. A good guy. On a mission of
>redemption. I help the hopeless. I'm a vampire with a soul." -Spike
>"A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?" -Buffy
>"I'm a hero really. I mean, to be cast such an ugly lot in life and then
>to rise above it. To seek out better, nobler things. It's inspirational,
>isn't it? And the two of us... natural enemies, thrown together to stand
>against the forces of darkness. Utter trust. No thought of me biting
>you, no thought of you staking me."- Spike, "Tabula Rasa"
>>
Yes, it's a nice piece of foreshadowing dressed up as something else.
But I'm still not convinced Spike went to Africa for his soul.
Tara: "Do you have any books on robots?"
Giles: "Oh, yes -- dozens. There's a lot of research to be done in
order to-- no, I'm lying. Haven't got squat -- I just like watching
Xander squirm."
Xander: "Funny. Charming and funny."
- "I Was Made to Love You"
-- Keith Gow --
L. Ross Raszewski
it certainly doesn't solve his problem, but it does make some sense;
what does Buffy say, over and over? That she can't love him because
he's a soulless monster. And what does Spike say over and over during
his ordeal? That he's "going to give the slayer (that bitch) what she
deserves." Of course, Buffy is the hero and all that, and what she
*deserves* is a lover with a, y'know, soul.
(One thing I do note -- I, for one, don't know if *Spike* knew what he
was getting into; did he seek out the dark and mysterious one with the
intention of having the chip taken out, or with the intention of
getting his soul back? The tone of his behavior suggests the former,
though, on the other hand, it seems that Spike would almost certainly
know what this particular demon's specialty was, and Spike's repeated
protestations of "I want to be like I was" and "I'm going to give the
slayer (that bitch) what she deserves" are the keystones of the
brainfuck effect: you assume while watching that he means that he
wants the chip out so he can be evil again, but in retrospect, he does
end up "like he was" (when he was human), and in order to give Buffy
"what she deserves" (as a lover), he needs a soul. (And, of course,
since spike can apparantly hurt Buffy [footnote 1], the chip is no
impediment to giving her "what she deserves" if he means by this to
kill her.))
>The writers wanted a surprise ending. Obviously they wanted Spike to
>do the noble thing, yet I find it infinitely more interesting that he
>wanted to do the evil thing and got stuck with a soul.
I rather tend toward thinking that he was indeed planning to Do The
Right Thing -- it's actially very in keeping with his "moment of
revelation" in the previous episode: after tryign to force himself on
Buffy, he is clearly *horrified* at the prospect of having acted like
a monster.
But, since I'm willing to hapily ignore this evidence, if it were up
to me, I'd prefer to believe that Spike *didn't know what he wanted*;
he went to the dark mysterious dude not intending *either* to have the
chip removed *or* to have his soul restored, but simply wanting to
*not be like he was at the moment*
>
>The idea he went looking for his soul and got it means everything is
>starting to work out for old Spikey. This can't last.
Well yeah. What I do not want to see is Spike showing up at buffy's
doorstep next season saying "Hey, look, got my soul back. Wanna go
out?"
[Footnote 1:
Am I the only one who finds the on-screen explanation for Spike's
ability to hurt Buffy exceptionally lame? I have a theory of my own
which fits the facts equally well and is much more artistically
pleasant.]
Keith Gow
Raszewski) waxed lyrical:
>>I feel it was basically a cheat. Although kudos for you thinking
>>"soul" because the audience has been trained to think about his chip
>>from Season 4.
>>
>>I'm not sure what the motivation for getting his soul back would be,
>>though. He's still a vamp. He's still got a chip in his head. Does
>>that really solve his problem?
>
>it certainly doesn't solve his problem, but it does make some sense;
>what does Buffy say, over and over? That she can't love him because
>he's a soulless monster.
And she can't trust him. A soul aint all sunshine and roses. And it
aint going to make him necessarily trustworthy.
>And what does Spike say over and over during
>his ordeal? That he's "going to give the slayer (that bitch) what she
>deserves." Of course, Buffy is the hero and all that, and what she
>*deserves* is a lover with a, y'know, soul.
>
Yeah, he was so in love with her he kept calling her a bitch. All that
"remorse" went out the window.
Yes, she deserves happiness, but I don't think Spike with soul is
necessarily going to give her that. I'm still pulling for Spike
*thinking* this will make him more appealing, it doesn't and he
decides to wreak bloody revenge - even with a soul. It's not like soul
= goody two shows.
>(One thing I do note -- I, for one, don't know if *Spike* knew what he
>was getting into; did he seek out the dark and mysterious one with the
>intention of having the chip taken out, or with the intention of
>getting his soul back? The tone of his behavior suggests the former,
>though, on the other hand, it seems that Spike would almost certainly
>know what this particular demon's specialty was, and Spike's repeated
>protestations of "I want to be like I was" and "I'm going to give the
>slayer (that bitch) what she deserves" are the keystones of the
>brainfuck effect: you assume while watching that he means that he
>wants the chip out so he can be evil again, but in retrospect, he does
>end up "like he was" (when he was human), and in order to give Buffy
>"what she deserves" (as a lover), he needs a soul. (And, of course,
>since spike can apparantly hurt Buffy [footnote 1], the chip is no
>impediment to giving her "what she deserves" if he means by this to
>kill her.))
>
Except he doesn't end up "like he was". He's ended up as a vampire
with a soul - which is a whole other kettle of fish heads.
>>The writers wanted a surprise ending. Obviously they wanted Spike to
>>do the noble thing, yet I find it infinitely more interesting that he
>>wanted to do the evil thing and got stuck with a soul.
>
>I rather tend toward thinking that he was indeed planning to Do The
>Right Thing -- it's actially very in keeping with his "moment of
>revelation" in the previous episode: after tryign to force himself on
>Buffy, he is clearly *horrified* at the prospect of having acted like
>a monster.
>
I keep coming back to the line "Why didn't I do it?" Which doesn't
necessarily equal horrified in my book.
>But, since I'm willing to hapily ignore this evidence, if it were up
>to me, I'd prefer to believe that Spike *didn't know what he wanted*;
>he went to the dark mysterious dude not intending *either* to have the
>chip removed *or* to have his soul restored, but simply wanting to
>*not be like he was at the moment*
>
That's also good. Seeking a soul just seems, I dunno, weird.
>>
>>The idea he went looking for his soul and got it means everything is
>>starting to work out for old Spikey. This can't last.
>
>Well yeah. What I do not want to see is Spike showing up at buffy's
>doorstep next season saying "Hey, look, got my soul back. Wanna go
>out?"
>
He might try it. As long as Buffy don't fall for it.
>
>[Footnote 1:
>Am I the only one who finds the on-screen explanation for Spike's
>ability to hurt Buffy exceptionally lame? I have a theory of my own
>which fits the facts equally well and is much more artistically
>pleasant.]
I think that scene needed another analogy, something smoother that
"deep cellular tan". Something that doesn't quite seem so
X-Files-pseudo-scientific. Yet I have no problem with the concept
behind it. And I was swept up by the moment when I originally saw that
episode. But, on reflection, it's not the most perfect scene in the
world.
-- Keith Gow --
Shel
wrote:
>Yes, this is what I thought when I watched the show. Yet some people
>(read: Joss Whedon and co) have publicly stated he went looking for
>his soul.
Hmmm. Okay...as you see, this is a perfect example of my ability to
suspend disbelief and immerse myself into the screen's here and now
(sounds better than dense inobservant unanalytical nitwit).
>No, you got it. I wish it had been left oblique, yet the question will
>come up this season. And based on what Joss has said, we'll be hearing
>Spike say "I went looking for my soul, Buffy"... or something similar.
I'd rather see Spike annoyed as hell because now not only does he have
a chip, he has a pesky soul. I *liked* bad Spike better than mooncalf
Spike. That said, I prefer mooncalf Spike to mooncalf Angel.
--
Shel
Shel
<snip>
>> >> Sorry. I forgot to state here earlier that I refuse to consider American
>> >> Cheese as actual cheese. Or food, for that matter. It's so bland and
>> >> rubbery. Blech. The calories and fat grams are not worth the horrid taste
>> >> and texture.
>> >
>> >But a grilled cheese loaded with sliced American cheese or Velveta is
>> >great comfort food.
>>
>> I'll pretend I didn't read that. Velveta? The work of the devil.
The best grilled cheese in the world is Velveeta on pumpernickel
bread.
Chastise it all you will, American cheese is the only cheese that
makes a good creamy grilled cheese sandwich. I adore cheese (please
don't analyze that) and spend extra bucks for imported cheeses from
England and Europe to munch. None of them, however, have worked in a
grilled cheese sandwich.
>I don't care if it's not real cheese. It makes wonderfully smooth cheese grits,
>great grilled cheeses, and great broccoli and cheese casserole. So it doesn't
>need to be refrigerated, and has more not cheese than cheese in it. It is still
>good.
Don't forget Tater Tot Casserole (sounds horrible but is actually
delicious). I eat healthily now, so I haven't had one in years, but I
remember them fondly. Using other than American cheese in a Tater Tot
Casserole would be an utter disaster.
--
Shel