Fish death(A sobering thought everyone should read)
Russell Lance Wampler
Mark, your purchasing practices and introduction sounds O.K. to me;
but I just read an article in the September issue of FAMA that makes
me wonder if what they describe as unexplained death of marine fish
is what happened to your butterfly. The article talks about the
collection practices of marine fish and that when a fish is subjected to
starvation it suffers irreperable damage to it's digestive system and
will eventually die. The article states that the fish may even resume
eating at the retail store or in a home aquarium, yet it will still
be doomed to death because the digestive system is not functioning
the way it should. The means of death are precisely those you describe;
suddenly stops eating and then dies a day or two later.
The article also talks about the losses that occur in collection and
transportation which can be as high as 99% from some locations like
the phillipines, and indonesia; mostly due to poor care of the creatures,
not the use of cyanide.
After having kept marine tanks for approximately 4 years now, and just
recently spending about $200 on fish, I am strongly considering not
purchasing any more fish and when mine die breaking down my tanks and
trowing them away.
Tim L. Weidauer
See my other post to the original message for some comments and sources
for tank raised animals.
Tim L. Weidauer
Corey Snow wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On 21 Nov 1997 11:47:55 GMT, rlwa...@onion.engr.ucdavis.edu (Russell
> Lance Wampler) wrote:
>
> >will eventually die. The article states that the fish may even
> resume
> >eating at the retail store or in a home aquarium, yet it will still
> >be doomed to death because the digestive system is not functioning
> >the way it should. The means of death are precisely those you
> describe;
> >suddenly stops eating and then dies a day or two later.
> >
> >The article also talks about the losses that occur in collection and
> >transportation which can be as high as 99% from some locations like
> >the phillipines, and indonesia; mostly due to poor care of the
> creatures,
> >not the use of cyanide.
> >
> >After having kept marine tanks for approximately 4 years now, and
> just
> >recently spending about $200 on fish, I am strongly considering not
> >purchasing any more fish and when mine die breaking down my tanks and
> >trowing them away.
>
> Russel, I know how you feel. I've had several fish die since I started
> keeping marine fish. I even (through incompetence on my part) a total
> die-off at one point, and was ready to do exactly what you describe-
> throw the tanks away.
>
> I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that some of the fish I
> get will die, regardless of what I can do. I don't like it, but that's
> the way it goes. The best I can do is make sure I don't impulse buy,
> get my fish from a trusted source, etc. My LFS lets me reserve a fish
> and keep an eye on it for a week or more in the store, watching it
> feed, etc. so I feel comfortable taking it home. But that only
> minimizes the number of fish that die, it doesn't eliminate it.
>
> All I can say is I hope you don't give up such a rewarding hobby- I
> find fishkeeping to be very Zen, if that makes sense, and probably the
> only thing that keeps me sane these days. ;)
>
> I really wish there were a way to inexpensively breed some of these
> fish we see in the LFS on a large scale- large enough to offset the
> import of fish for hobbyists.
>
> Does anyone think this is possible?
>
> Regards,
>
> Corey M. Snow, co...@snowpoint.com
> Co-Founder & Webmaster for CAUCE
> http://www.cauce.org | DALNet #cauce
> "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to
> the death your right to say it"
> - -Attributed to Voltaire
>
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Corey Snow
Tim L. Weidauer
See Below!!!
Russell Lance Wampler wrote:
> Mark, your purchasing practices and introduction sounds O.K. to me;
> but I just read an article in the September issue of FAMA that makes
> me wonder if what they describe as unexplained death of marine fish
> is what happened to your butterfly. The article talks about the
> collection practices of marine fish and that when a fish is subjected to
> starvation it suffers irreperable damage to it's digestive system and
> will eventually die. The article states that the fish may even resume
> eating at the retail store or in a home aquarium, yet it will still
> be doomed to death because the digestive system is not functioning
> the way it should. The means of death are precisely those you describe;
> suddenly stops eating and then dies a day or two later.
>
> The article also talks about the losses that occur in collection and
> transportation which can be as high as 99% from some locations like
> the phillipines, and indonesia; mostly due to poor care of the creatures,
> not the use of cyanide.
>
> After having kept marine tanks for approximately 4 years now, and just
> recently spending about $200 on fish, I am strongly considering not
> purchasing any more fish and when mine die breaking down my tanks and
> trowing them away.
I just want to point out that there are many sources of tank raised fish
and corals now. Sure the fish may be a little higher in price, but they are
worth it. The fish are less tempermental and more resistant to diseases.
There are some fantastic fish out there now including many types of
clownfish, dotybacks, gobies and others. Coral farming is doing very well
and many species are available.
If you want to do something to make an impact on the importation quality of
fish, then stop buying wild caught fish (unless you KNOW they will be quality
and survive), ask for tank raised species, and encourage your friends to buy
tank raised fish and corals! As long as the market keeps buying "disposable"
fish that are doomed to die because of handling, then they will still be
collected, mishandled, and sold for pennies by some guy in the phillipines
who doesn't care about anything but the bag of grain he just bought to feed
his kids. He doesn't care or doesn't know that if he managed his "crop" and
cared for the creatures to reduce losses and offer a quality product, he
would have a sustainable crop and a future for his kids and would not have to
impact the reef.
Unfortunately, this is really a problem that is occuring often. There are
great collectors and suppliers, but the mix of bad ones really is going to
mess up the future. A few suggestions to contact are:
American Marinelife Dealers Assn. (John Tullock) - www.execpc.com/~jkos/amda
Breeders Registry - www.actwin.com/fish/br/index.html
Dynamic Ecomorphology (Steve Tyree)- www.masla.com
Geothermal Aquaculture Research Foundation - www.garf.org
Reef Science International - www.reefscience.com
and others.
Tim L. Weidauer - President - Wasatch Marine Aquarium Society - Salt Lake,
Utah
VP - Wasatch Aquaculture - http://www.rotifer.com - Live Rotifers and
VelvetGreen!
Craig Bingman
In article <653sdb$9a5$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
Russell Lance Wampler <rlwa...@onion.engr.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>After having kept marine tanks for approximately 4 years now, and just
>recently spending about $200 on fish, I am strongly considering not
>purchasing any more fish and when mine die breaking down my tanks and
>trowing them away.
This would be an unfortunate time to get out of the hobby. IMO, the
hobby has made really incredible advances in the past few years. From
your perspective, perhaps the increased availability of captive
propagated organisms will be helpful to you. There are a number of
captive propagated clownfish, gobies and pseudochromids available now,
and IMO, angels and other more difficult species are probably only a
few years down the road.
There is also a very interesting movement going on in the background now,
and in my estimation, it will be possible to keep most fragile,
non-photosynthetic soft corals within a year. I expect a lot of that to
break at the Western Conference in a few months. Judging from the title
of Charles' talk, he will be speaking about this, and I have several
things to say along those lines as well. This may ultimately lead to the
development of conditions where organisms like crinoids can be kept in
captivity as well.
This is the most exciting time to have a reef tank since the hobby
started. Hang in there, there are some really great things on the horizon.
Craig
Russell Lance Wampler
Thanks to all who have helped to 'reel me in.' I was really disappointed
by the article I read, in fact, I still can't figure out why FAMA
would publish such a damaging article. But I for one am glad that they
did because in order to justify my furture purchases of reef specimens,
I am going to devote some time to evoking some change in the industry.
To start I am going to talk to the store that I do business with and
let them know that even though they do a great job they could still
do much much better. I only purchase from one store and they have always
said that the fish are non-cyanide captured. They need to start carying
captive bred specimens, and re-evaluate the fish suppliers they work with.
And, at least the specimens I purchase will go to a good home that will
give them a very good chance of survival.
I would encourage all of those who purchase marine specimens to make their
voices heard, at the very least to the retailers. It is the only way that
we can force the industry to change for the better. If we don't, I can
guarantee that either Greenpeace or some other enviornmental agency will
be knocking on congress' door to ban importation of marine fish. The best
way to deter this is by policing the industry ourselves.
BTW, thanks to John Tullock who wrote the article in Sept FAMA for opening
the eyes of so many people, including my own.
American Marinelife Dealers Assn. (John Tullock) - www.execpc.com/~jkos/amda
I'm going to thread in some responses to Craig's post.
>This would be an unfortunate time to get out of the hobby. IMO, the
>hobby has made really incredible advances in the past few years. From
>your perspective, perhaps the increased availability of captive
>propagated organisms will be helpful to you. There are a number of
>captive propagated clownfish, gobies and pseudochromids available now,
>and IMO, angels and other more difficult species are probably only a
>few years down the road.
Yes, I agree that buying captive bred specimens is a good alternative,
but none of the dealers in my area carry them. If they won't start,
I'll start looking into mail ordering them from suppliers directly.
You must remember though, the marine angels and most other desireable
species reproduce by waterborne fertilization, and the young that are
fertilized enter the plankton of the sea. Just getting these fish to
mate in captivity is nearly impossible, let alone the difficulty of
rearing the microscopic eggs to maturity. But let's be optimistic
and hope that the people that are captively breeding the clownfish
and gobies will do some R&D into solving these problems.
>
>There is also a very interesting movement going on in the background now,
>and in my estimation, it will be possible to keep most fragile,
>non-photosynthetic soft corals within a year. I expect a lot of that to
>break at the Western Conference in a few months. Judging from the title
>of Charles' talk, he will be speaking about this, and I have several
>things to say along those lines as well. This may ultimately lead to the
>development of conditions where organisms like crinoids can be kept in
>captivity as well.
I't is not possible to keep non-photosynthetic soft corals now? I guess
that's why I never knew that there was such a thing. What is the limiting
factor that exists in keeping them in the well lit reef aquarium?
What the hell is a crinoid? ;-)
Where is the Western Conference going to be this year and when is it?
>
>This is the most exciting time to have a reef tank since the hobby
>started. Hang in there, there are some really great things on the horizon.
I agree that it is a great time to be involved with marine aquarium keeping,
but we need to get rid of some of the old, bad habits.
Thanks again for the words of encouragement.
Russ
Russell Lance Wampler
See the reply to craig's post for my reply to everyone.
I'm going to thread in responses to Corey if anyone is interested.
Corey Snow <co...@snowpoint.com> wrote:
>
>Russel, I know how you feel. I've had several fish die since I started
>keeping marine fish. I even (through incompetence on my part) a total
>die-off at one point, and was ready to do exactly what you describe-
>throw the tanks away.
I've had the same experiences, but only during the first year. But that
was not my reasons for wanting to get rid of the tanks. The thought that
for every fish I have had 99 others have been killed due to improper
handling was. The ecological damage that is going on must be huge.
But I guess it is not going to stop if I stop keeping aquariums.
Maybe the damage will stop if I and others devoted to the hobby voice our
concerns before the importation is banned (because the reefs of the world are
permanently F***ED up).
>I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that some of the fish I
>get will die, regardless of what I can do. I don't like it, but that's
>the way it goes. The best I can do is make sure I don't impulse buy,
>get my fish from a trusted source, etc.
I understand and agree with you on these points.
> My LFS lets me reserve a fish
> and keep an eye on it for a week or more in the store, watching it
>feed, etc. so I feel comfortable taking it home. But that only
>minimizes the number of fish that die, it doesn't eliminate it.
I'm going to start forcing my store to do this for me also. I've spent
plenty of $$ there, and they owe me this service on all of my future
purchases.
>All I can say is I hope you don't give up such a rewarding hobby- I
>find fishkeeping to be very Zen, if that makes sense, and probably the
>only thing that keeps me sane these days. ;)
It was totally Zen for me too, until I read the article in FAMA a few
days ago. It looses it's Zen value when you think of what it must
be doing to the reef ecology.
>I really wish there were a way to inexpensively breed some of these
>fish we see in the LFS on a large scale- large enough to offset the
>import of fish for hobbyists.
>
>Does anyone think this is possible?
Maybe, but the difference between the species that are available now,
and all of the other species is that they are species that brood their
young. The angels, butterflys and most others release their eggs and
sperm into the plankton to fertilize and grow by eating plankton. When
man can figure out how to get these species to mate in captivity, and
how to grow plankton that can feed the young to maturity, we'll have
a chance at it.
Thanks again for the response,
Russ
Craig Bingman
In article <656d0t$9cl$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
Russell Lance Wampler <rlwa...@onion.engr.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>You must remember though, the marine angels and most other desireable
>species reproduce by waterborne fertilization, and the young that are
>fertilized enter the plankton of the sea.
Yes, I know.
>Just getting these fish to
>mate in captivity is nearly impossible,
That isn't true. People who keep male and female angels (or trios) of
the same species often observe them mating in reef tanks. Rearing the
larvae is the rate limiting step. Progress is being made.
>I't is not possible to keep non-photosynthetic soft corals now?
Not very well, and for not very long. Again, I expect that to change
very soon.
>What the hell is a crinoid? ;-)
A type of echinoderm.
>Where is the Western Conference going to be this year and when is it?
Seattle, April 1998.
Craig
Corey Snow
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On 22 Nov 1997 11:13:08 GMT, rlwa...@onion.engr.ucdavis.edu (Russell
Lance Wampler) wrote:
>See the reply to craig's post for my reply to everyone.
>
>I'm going to thread in responses to Corey if anyone is interested.
>
>Corey Snow <co...@snowpoint.com> wrote:
>>
>>Russel, I know how you feel. I've had several fish die since I
started
>>keeping marine fish. I even (through incompetence on my part) a
total
>>die-off at one point, and was ready to do exactly what you describe-
>>throw the tanks away.
>
>I've had the same experiences, but only during the first year. But
that
>was not my reasons for wanting to get rid of the tanks. The thought
that
>for every fish I have had 99 others have been killed due to improper
>handling was. The ecological damage that is going on must be huge.
>But I guess it is not going to stop if I stop keeping aquariums.
>Maybe the damage will stop if I and others devoted to the hobby voice
our
>concerns before the importation is banned (because the reefs of the
world are
>permanently F***ED up).
>
I agree with you on the damage that is likely occuring. I've been
making a lot of progress in this hobby, and one of the things I'm
starting to realize is just how much in its infancy the practice of
keeping marine fish is. It's very exciting to me to be in the position
of actually discovering new things about these amazing and delicate
creatures. There's plenty of room for the observant and vigilant
hobbyist to provide massive insight and practical knowledge to the
upkeep of marine aquaria, including breeding.
As I understand it, just 10 years ago, it was nearly impossible to
keep marine fish in the hobby aquarium; they were too expensive and
delicate. Only public displays like zoos and major aquariums could
afford a marine tank.
>
>>I really wish there were a way to inexpensively breed some of these
>>fish we see in the LFS on a large scale- large enough to offset the
>>import of fish for hobbyists.
>>
>>Does anyone think this is possible?
>
>Maybe, but the difference between the species that are available now,
>and all of the other species is that they are species that brood
their
>young. The angels, butterflys and most others release their eggs and
>sperm into the plankton to fertilize and grow by eating plankton.
When
>man can figure out how to get these species to mate in captivity, and
>how to grow plankton that can feed the young to maturity, we'll have
>a chance at it.
This is why I'm glad forums such as these exist. In between the
product reviews and panicked "fish death" posts, you can often find
very useful nuggets of information which, when combined with your own
experience, can expand your understanding of the hobby greatly.
Regards,
Corey M. Snow, co...@snowpoint.com
Co-Founder & Webmaster for CAUCE
http://www.cauce.org | DALNet #cauce
"I disagree with what you say, but will defend to
the death your right to say it"
- -Attributed to Voltaire
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Nathan Cope
G'day Russel,
The only bit that I can add to this fascinating and exciting discussion
of what is likely in the near future of this hobby is:
> >What the hell is a crinoid? ;-)
>
> A type of echinoderm.
Commonly called a feather-star.
--
Nathan Cope
cow_...@hotmail.com or co...@upnaway.com
http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~nathan