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Fighter tactics---Robert Shaw

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Snort

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Mar 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/30/99
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RoseVictor <rosev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com...
> ..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and
strat?
> the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know it
is
> considered a classic in the real fighter world.
> thanks

Damn right it is,

In the real world, not as sure about "fighter simulation".

Snort

RoseVictor

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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Mark J. Cintala

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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Worth every friggin' penny.

Craters
-----------------------
Mark J. Cintala
Pull the .pins from my address to e-mail me.

=Jagr=

unread,
Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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Yup, its worth it..it pretty much explains all the cardinal rules of fighter
combat and actually has some great out takes from other books. If your a
sim nut its a must have.

Snort <b...@navtap.navy.milNOT> wrote in message
news:7ds765$bb2$1...@camel29.mindspring.com...


>
> RoseVictor <rosev...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com...

> > ..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and
> strat?
> > the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know
it
> is
> > considered a classic in the real fighter world.
> > thanks
>

Greg Pringle

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
to
Yes but it is very dense and technical.. will probably take you quite
awhile to get through the whole thing and understand it. Make notes, and
try new ideas out one at a time as you come across them (worked for me).

Greg

--
Greg Pringle
Tailslide's Air Combat Site
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com

MiGMan

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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It ain't thin believe me!
My copy has 428 pages and doubles as a doorstop!
Read my take on it at
http://www.migman.com.au/ref/nf/FighterCombat.htm

Regards,
Peter Inglis
mig...@migman.com.au
http://www.migman.com.au

RoseVictor wrote in message <19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com>...

MiGMan

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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........ and Robert Shaw at
http://www.migman.com.au/ref/nf/ShawR.htm

KCCook23

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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If you're just a weekend warrior who like the occational flying around and
shooting things down it's overkill, but if you're like me and combat
flight-sims are your hobby it is an absolute must have. Me and my wingy used
many of tactics outlined in airwarrior and found them to be extremely helpful.

It reads like a physics text book sometimes, but it really helps one to take
the next step of going from a pretty good pilot to an excellent one. I won't
kid you though, it is something to study as opposed to just read.

>..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and strat?
>the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know it is
>considered a classic in the real fighter world.
>thanks


KC Cook

Pete Zaitcev

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
to
rosev...@aol.com (RoseVictor) writes:
>..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and strat?
>the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know it is
>considered a classic in the real fighter world.

In my opinion (as an armchair pilot) it is a very valuable book but
it is about as difficult to understand as Lord of The Rings. Perhaps
I am just dumb. Anyways my biggest difficulty is to match situations
against the book. If I learn something then I usually find it later
in the book, missed at first. Shaw does not provide a cookbook and it
hurts us sim pilots.

--Pete

Pete Zaitcev

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
to
Greg is right... also, make numbers. Shaw is too common. Best thing
he gives you is "30 deg off nose" or something. For a sim you
need numbers. For exmaple, AW3: you meet a higher flying enemy.
Suppose you execute "Cage's maneuver", e.g. fly in plane with nme initially.
Remember to break turn at 1500 yards if the is at 6, at 1700 yards if
he is ahead. Other example, AW3 again: If you are higher, and decide
to split-s on him, your separation must be 2000 ... 2500 yards, e.g.
if you look 45 deg down it's 3200 yards. You must attach numbers to
maneuvers in Shaw's book.

--Pete

Greg Pringle

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
to
Actually I was in the computer store the other day, and saw the "Official"
guide to Falcon 4 (book). It had a lot of great dogfight diagrams, was
pretty cheap and avoided using terms most people don't understand. Almost
picked it up, but I fly WW2 sims more than jet sims.

I have some tactics pages on my site (link below) under WW2->tactics and
Jet->tactics you might find useful too.

Greg

--
Greg Pringle
Tailslide's Air Combat Site
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com

Pete Zaitcev <zai...@bogus.com> wrote in message
news:zaitcev.922902619@mallorn...

Spartacus

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
to
I leaf through it all the time at Barnes and Noble, but it seems on the dry
side as far as the tone of it goes. However, many people consider it a must
have, so I'd probably buy this and one of the more accessible popular
paperbacks out there. Can't go too far wrong parking both of them next to
the throne when you get your next irresistible urge.

RoseVictor wrote in message <19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com>...

>..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and
strat?
>the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know it
is
>considered a classic in the real fighter world.

>thanks

X

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
to
Yeah, it's great.....hard to teach tactics...

You are better off finding someone who can show you how to stay above and
inside..just my opinion.


Pasha

dad...@cris.com

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
to
Robert Shaw


Best beer buddy i have.

HiTech

=Jagr=

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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If I recall, if your buying, he's everyone's buddy..:) He's been in the
Navy, he knows the game well.... He also likes to steal calimari but thats
another story....


Jagr


<dad...@cris.com> wrote in message news:3702ab94....@nntp.cris.com...

X

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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dad...@cris.com wrote in message <3702ab94....@nntp.cris.com>...

>Robert Shaw
>
>
>Best beer buddy i have.
>
>HiTech


=o)

Name Dropper...

;o)


Pasha

Steve Erhardt

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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Thin!? That book is a lot of things, but "thin" isn't one of em. Just
looking at it on the shelf, I'd guess there's 400+ pages.
As for how good it is, that's kind of subjective. If you're totally
hardcore, and willing to work at understanding the material, then it's the
book to have. It hasn't earned the reputation as the flyer's bible for
nothing.
But be warned... Shaw doesn't pull any punches, and doesn't water down
the text for newbies. He wrote this book for readers who knew what they
were going to get into ahead of time. Hell, it still gives me a headache if
I read too much of it in one sitting... <G>

Steve

www.evilavatar.com
Hairless Creampuffs acclimated to
happy-sunshine reviews no matter how
bad the game really is need not visit.

Sean Long

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Mar 31, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/31/99
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Remember to ask him about the "double inverted moon" trick :) I had the
good fortune to be the safety observer for the con97 version.

Mouse is a good shit IMHO... I have a pic of him wearing his DoD beanie
tucked into my copy of his book.

Sean Long
WB: -eagl-

<dad...@cris.com> wrote in message news:3702ab94....@nntp.cris.com...

Derek Jackson

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
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Excellent book. Buy it.

Derek

--

I have WAY too many flight sims....
home.nycap.rr.com/wemic/
ICQ#11192354
Only because I lost a bet:
Miami is the better team


RoseVictor <rosev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com...

Ron Miller

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
RoseVictor (rosev...@aol.com) wrote:
: ..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and strat?

: the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know it is
: considered a classic in the real fighter world.
: thanks

I'm the son of a Navy F-4 pilot. Been crazy about planes for 40 years.
The book may be dense and dry on first reading because there is so very
much involved.

Read it 2 or 3 or 4 times. I absorb something new each time.

Ron Miller

Michael

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
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I wish my local barnes and noble carried this book.

Spartacus wrote in message <7du3rt$pb$1...@nw003t.infi.net>...


>I leaf through it all the time at Barnes and Noble, but it seems on the dry
>side as far as the tone of it goes. However, many people consider it a must
>have, so I'd probably buy this and one of the more accessible popular
>paperbacks out there. Can't go too far wrong parking both of them next to
>the throne when you get your next irresistible urge.
>

>RoseVictor wrote in message <19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com>...

Vernon Pellerin

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
In article <3702...@news1.us.ibm.net>, "Steve Erhardt" <gse...@ibm.net> wrote:
> Thin!? That book is a lot of things, but "thin" isn't one of em. Just
>looking at it on the shelf, I'd guess there's 400+ pages.
> As for how good it is, that's kind of subjective. If you're totally
>hardcore, and willing to work at understanding the material, then it's the
>book to have. It hasn't earned the reputation as the flyer's bible for
>nothing.
> But be warned... Shaw doesn't pull any punches, and doesn't water down
>the text for newbies. He wrote this book for readers who knew what they
>were going to get into ahead of time. Hell, it still gives me a headache if
>I read too much of it in one sitting... <G>

A headache? Hell, more like a frickin' migraine!
It's a great book, but seriously tough reading.


>
>Steve
>
>www.evilavatar.com
>Hairless Creampuffs acclimated to
>happy-sunshine reviews no matter how
>bad the game really is need not visit.
>

>RoseVictor wrote in message <19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com>...
>>..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and
>strat?
>>the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know it
>is
>>considered a classic in the real fighter world.
>>thanks
>
>

Remove countermeasures to Reply.


RoseVictor

unread,
Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
......Barnes and noble online does have it for $24.95 instead of the normal
$34.95 at your local bookseller.

Brian Nolen(Spandau =TH=)

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to

KCCook23 <kcco...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990331105239...@ng-fu1.aol.com>...


> If you're just a weekend warrior who like the occational flying around
and
> shooting things down it's overkill, but if you're like me and combat
> flight-sims are your hobby it is an absolute must have. Me and my wingy
used
> many of tactics outlined in airwarrior and found them to be extremely
helpful.

Many of the things Shaw covers are mainly applicable to jet combat. Prop
birds just don't have the E reserves to do a lot of the things he
recommends in there. WWII fanatics can pretty much skip chapters dealing
with getting missle solutions. But at least 2/3rds of the book are
applicable to any fighter type aircraft.



>
> It reads like a physics text book sometimes, but it really helps one to
take
> the next step of going from a pretty good pilot to an excellent one. I
won't
> kid you though, it is something to study as opposed to just read.

Oh no kidding! Shaw's a neat guy, and fun to hang around with, but COD...
That book is dry as toast. Definatly a textbook read... I kept my copy on
the back of the commode, and was, (if you'll pardon the expression...) able
to digest it in small bits at a time...
>
Brian Nolen
Spandau

Brian Nolen(Spandau =TH=)

unread,
Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to

Pete Zaitcev <zai...@bogus.com> wrote in article
<zaitcev.922902177@mallorn>...


> rosev...@aol.com (RoseVictor) writes:
> >..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and
strat?
> >the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know
it is
> >considered a classic in the real fighter world.
>

> In my opinion (as an armchair pilot) it is a very valuable book but
> it is about as difficult to understand as Lord of The Rings. Perhaps
> I am just dumb. Anyways my biggest difficulty is to match situations
> against the book. If I learn something then I usually find it later
> in the book, missed at first. Shaw does not provide a cookbook and it
> hurts us sim pilots.
>
> --Pete

Well, despite the fact that Shaw flew Air Warrior some, he DID write it as
a textbook for the Navy. Wouldn't be suprised that someone tracked sales
of the book and wondered why so many sales outside of the armed services
crop up for that title...

But it is such a magical moment when you realize you have a classic setup
for one of the situations Shaw covers, and can then put your book larnin to
the test. Even more magical when you pass the test... So far I manage
about a C- at best....

Brian
Spandau
>

Brian Nolen(Spandau =TH=)

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to

Michael <mi...@mike.net> wrote in article
<5rBM2.1153$qL2...@news.flash.net>...


> I wish my local barnes and noble carried this book.
>
>

Well, see it they'll order the blessed thing for ya... Since it's in print,
I doubt that they'll have a hard time getting it.

Brian Nolen
Spandau

=Jagr=

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
Yes, that was one fine trick....<G>

By the way...did you ever complete that "mission"? :)


Sean Long <sean...@PLEASE.NO-SPAM.micron.net> wrote in message
news:T6CM2.21$R8....@skin01.micron.net...

MiGMan

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
Ah now... "throne room reading is an _entirely_ different
kettle of fish..........Check out
http://www.migman.com.au/ref/tt/
for my fave throne material.... Fighter Combat is too
big and heavy to read with one hand! ; < )

Regards,

Peter Inglis
mig...@migman.com.au
Visit the FLIGHT SIM MUSEUM at:
http://www.migman.com.au

Spartacus wrote in message <7du3rt$pb$1...@nw003t.infi.net>...
>I leaf through it all the time at Barnes and Noble, but it seems on the dry
>side as far as the tone of it goes. However, many people consider it a must
>have, so I'd probably buy this and one of the more accessible popular
>paperbacks out there. Can't go too far wrong parking both of them next to
>the throne when you get your next irresistible urge.
>

>RoseVictor wrote in message <19990330225512...@ng41.aol.com>...

>>..is this a worthwile book for usable fighter simulation tactics and
>strat?
>>the price is a little high for a book on the thin side although I know it
>is
>>considered a classic in the real fighter world.

>>thanks
>
>

COOPER

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
dad...@cris.com writes:

>Best beer buddy i have.

WHAT?!?!?!

See if I let you buy lap dances for me ever again!

(well, maybe just a few...)

I'm assuming you'll be at this AW Con, right?

-moggy

--
gary cooper (not the dead one)
mailto:mo...@kesmai.com
Kesmai Studios Air Warrior Product Support
http://www.cris.com/~cooper

COOPER

unread,
Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
"MiGMan" <mig...@migman.com.au> writes:

>Ah now... "throne room reading is an _entirely_ different
>kettle of fish..........Check out
>http://www.migman.com.au/ref/tt/
>for my fave throne material.... Fighter Combat is too
>big and heavy to read with one hand! ; < )

Jeez - am I the only one left with a Playboy subscription?

Heater

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
> Jeez - am I the only one left with a Playboy subscription?
>
> -moggy
>
I buy it for the articles...

;)

Heater

M. McWilliams

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
dad...@cris.com wrote:
>
> Robert Shaw

>
> Best beer buddy i have.
>
> HiTech

Looking forward to seeingyou at the Con this year. Harry HAS roped you
up on it, right?

Tex

Sean Long

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
(puts on best innocent face)

Now which one would that be?

<G>

Sean Long
WB: -eagl-

=Jagr= <jta...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7dviqa$pua$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net...


> Yes, that was one fine trick....<G>
>
> By the way...did you ever complete that "mission"? :)
>
>
> Sean Long <sean...@PLEASE.NO-SPAM.micron.net> wrote in message
> news:T6CM2.21$R8....@skin01.micron.net...
> > Remember to ask him about the "double inverted moon" trick :) I had the
> > good fortune to be the safety observer for the con97 version.
> >
> > Mouse is a good shit IMHO... I have a pic of him wearing his DoD beanie
> > tucked into my copy of his book.
> >
> > Sean Long
> > WB: -eagl-
> >
> > <dad...@cris.com> wrote in message
> news:3702ab94....@nntp.cris.com...

dad...@cris.com

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Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
On 01 Apr 1999 08:05:58 PST, Coo...@cris.com (COOPER) wrote:

>I'm assuming you'll be at this AW Con, right?
>

Ill be there

HiTech

X

unread,
Apr 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/1/99
to
COOPER wrote in message

>Jeez - am I the only one left with a Stolen Playboy subscription?
>
>-moggy

Nuff said.


Pasha


Matthew V. Jessick

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Apr 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/2/99
to
The more you fly sims, (and the more you re-read your Shaw ;)
the more situations described in the text you recognize from
your simming.

- Matt
WB: para

Matthew V. Jessick

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Apr 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/2/99
to

Spartacus wrote:

> I leaf through it all the time at Barnes and Noble, but it seems on the dry
> side as far as the tone of it goes.

One of the many good things about the book from my standpoint
is Appendix A, which is a very good review of "Fighter Performance."
How a plane accelerates, turns, dives, climbs, etc., all in 20 pp or so.
(Mine seems to be at the ofice ;)

- Matt
WB: para

Brian Nolen(Spandau =TH=)

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Apr 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/2/99
to

Matthew V. Jessick <mjes...@gte.net> wrote in article
<7e1o3m$qs1$4...@news-1.news.gte.net>...
True true true. However my copy has gone missing. But considering the
Sherlockian filing system I have around this house, it COULD be about 10
feet from me as I type...

However, as soon as I buy a replacement for it, I'll find the blasted thing
again.... that's the way things work for me.... Still trying to learn to
cooperate with a wingman... Wing tactics is probably the hardest of the
chapters to put into play effectively. But having been on the recieving
end of a few decent to good wing pairs, it's awesome...

Brian
Spandau=TH=
AW: Spand

migh...@usa.net

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Apr 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/2/99
to
In article <01be7c68$65759400$d31df5cc@default>,

"Heater" <tj...@exspamstremezone.com> wrote:
> I buy it for the articles...
> ;)

And I buy it for my testicles :-)

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Pierre Legrand

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
Wifey's father has a solution to your filing problem. He has the same
one you have....he just buys three of everything....makes it hard to
lose...<VBG>

I mentioned to the wifey that I was misplacing my puter and probably
would need to purchase another....she nibbled a bit at the bait then
swam away...damn.

PAPA DOC

>>
>True true true. However my copy has gone missing. But considering the
>Sherlockian filing system I have around this house, it COULD be about 10
>feet from me as I type...
>
>However, as soon as I buy a replacement for it, I'll find the blasted thing
>again.... that's the way things work for me.... Still trying to learn to
>cooperate with a wingman... Wing tactics is probably the hardest of the
>chapters to put into play effectively. But having been on the recieving
>end of a few decent to good wing pairs, it's awesome...
>
>Brian
>Spandau=TH=
>AW: Spand

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand
pleg...@earthlink.net
Falcon 4 Instructor Pilot
Su-27 Pink Flamingo Pilot...<VBG>
http://www.papadoc.net
Home of the FALCON 4 Benchmark

Dave

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Apr 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/9/99
to

Pierre Legrand wrote:

> Wifey's father has a solution to your filing problem. He has the same
> one you have....he just buys three of everything....makes it hard to
> lose...<VBG>
>
> I mentioned to the wifey that I was misplacing my puter and probably
> would need to purchase another....she nibbled a bit at the bait then
> swam away...damn.
>
> PAPA DOC

Heh heh, Papa, you are truely an EVIL man! ; )

Grundman


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