Synchronizing Periods
Carey Gregory
>Is it true that if a bunch of chicks live together in close proximity for an
>extended period of time their periods will synchronize?
Chickens synchronize their periods?! That's interesting.
>Anyway, back to the science point. The female period is probably the closet
>human thing to estrus in the animal world.
By golly, I think you're on to something there.
>Scent plays an important part in
>letting male animals know the female is ready to mate. There could be a human
>scent or pheromone that is detected but not on the concious level.
Another breakthrough.
--
Carey Gregory
firef...@centuryinter.net
wrote:
>Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
>>Is it true that if a bunch of chicks live together in close proximity for an
>>extended period of time their periods will synchronize?
This is very true - saw it happen when I went to BNCOC. I had six
women in my class and we were there three months. By the time we went
out for our FTX, 4 or 5 were in synch - and enjoying that time of the
month in the field.
Pick
TMOliver
Do you 'spect that if we could get them all to go outside at night
together (for an extended series of nights) to gaze at the moon as it
moves toward its (apogee/perigee/both of the above), we could get them
synchronized around the world? Thus making life for men less confusing
(or that I could go off the country for a few days predictable each
month to avoid mistreatment...
No such luck. Their tides too would be sequential, starting here or
there and racing about the globe, a sort of "Ninth Wave" (Now there's a
UL!) of pained hostility sweeping all common sense and reason before it.
For a male in a house where daughters have grown and departed and where
the inevitable calamity off menopause has occurred life changes. Now,
she's pissed off at me all the time.
--
TMOliver, el pelon sinverguenza
From a small observatory overlooking McLennan Crossing
- VESPER ADEST IUVENES CONSURGITE -
Catullus
Shez
<swr...@iamerica.net> writes
>
>For a male in a house where daughters have grown and departed and where
>the inevitable calamity off menopause has occurred life changes. Now,
>she's pissed off at me all the time.
>--
>TMOliver, el pelon sinverguenza
>From a small observatory overlooking McLennan Crossing
>
>- VESPER ADEST IUVENES CONSURGITE -
> Catullus
Calamity, it was one of the happiest days of my life, I cant think of
anything more uncomfortable that those menses. menopause gave me the
chance to be free, no pregnancy, no cramps, no PMS. no periods, and your
mature enough to appreciate it.
Going through the menopause can be annoying, but once its over, then
your laughing. now a wise hubby will make sure his lady feels loved and
wanted, and that she is as attractive as ever..... :)
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
adam robert boyko
> that this often happens with college roomates or other females that
> live together and there may be human pheromones causing this which
> has implications for the history of human evolution. I'm guessing that
> this is an Urban Legend of science though.
Nope, it's not an urban legend--it has scientific support. McClintock, I
believe, published the first scientific study of it (in the 40s or 50s, if
I remember correctly) in female dormitories.
As far the implications this has on the history of human evolution, it's
not clear. Female menstral synchrony is fairly easy to explain in
species with seasonal breeding, communal offspring-rearing, or
male-dominated harem societies, but none of these is thought to apply to
modern or prehistoric humans.
Without a plausible adaptive explanation, we can't rule out the
possibility that 1) it evolved earlier in our evolutionary history but no
longer has a function or 2) it never had an adaptive function to begin
with and just kind of "happened".
Neither explanation is all that satisfying to some evolutionary
anthropolists, but they both have merit. Since it's doubtful that
menstral synchrony is maladaptive, number 1 is plausible since once
evolved, there wouldn't be much selective pressure to de-evolve it.
Number 2 is plausible for many reasons. Human pheremones have been shown
to affect menstration in many ways (a woman's first menstration is delayed
(suppressed) if they are living with their biological father (incest
avoidance) and accellerated (induced) if they are living with a
non-related male; furthermore, women cycle faster and are more regular
in the presence of males). Since menstral synchrony only occurs in woman
who are in close proximity (like dorms), not the sort of
environment that humans evolved in, it's could just be that's how all
those pheremones affect each other in artificially close environments and
that it is not adaptive but rather, just an artifact.
> Anyway, back to the science point. The female period is probably the closet
> human thing to estrus in the animal world. Scent plays an important part in
> letting male animals know the female is ready to mate. There could be a human
> scent or pheromone that is detected but not on the concious level.
I'm not sure I totally follow. Estrus and menstration are different.
Estrus is the period where conception can occur and, in most species,
females are sexual receptive. Humans are unique among great apes in that
females conceal estrus (often, even from themselves) and are continuously
sexually receptive. The evolutionary arguments for this are extremely
varied, but as of now, no one really knows why humans are like this.
Your argument about human pheromones working on an unconcious level,
however, is right on target.
As far as the comment about synchronizing women world-wide, it's not as
far-fetched as it sounds (I'm not saying is possible, or even desirable).
I know that there's at least one species of New World monkey where females
everywhere synchronize to the lunar cycle, and so every female is
receptive at the same time.
Hope this helps,
Adam
the rabid child
synchronize when we spend any time together in proximity.
Hammer down!
--
the rabid child
Afalwyn
TMOliver wrote in message <36F50740...@iamerica.net>...
>firef...@centuryinter.net wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:43:44 GMT, cgre...@gw-tech.com (Carey Gregory)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>> >
>Do you 'spect that if we could get them all to go outside at night
>together (for an extended series of nights) to gaze at the moon as it
>moves toward its (apogee/perigee/both of the above), we could get them
>synchronized around the world? Thus making life for men less confusing
>(or that I could go off the country for a few days predictable each
>month to avoid mistreatment...
>TMOliver, el pelon sinverguenza
>From a small observatory overlooking McLennan Crossing
>
>- VESPER ADEST IUVENES CONSURGITE -
> Catullus
(ROFL) I like this idea, in 2015 when women rule the world we can hand it
over to men one week out of four, it'll give us something to do the other
three weeks, tidying up the mess they made!
I watched (participated in) my dad going through his wife's meopause and his
daughter's (me) puberty,at the same time. So I do sympathise (but only three
weeks out of four you understand).
BB
Afalwyn
TMOliver
>
> I can attest from experience. I have a friend with whom we all
> synchronize when we spend any time together in proximity.
I think all you ladies/women/aspirants are simply 'zaggerating your team
moves, for how could any sept in which a group of two or more is
unlikely without several hours of fierce debate to be able to agree on
any two courses of a three course meal or at which corner to turn right
synchronize such an awesome display of the physical as menses as the
peculiar state which precedes it?
Now ponder the ease at which men synchronize...
Each morn, as the sun sweeps its golden dawn across the face of the
earth, Apollo follows, brushing lightly across the organs of males from
callow boys to dithering grandads, raising almost each and every one of
them (except those prostrated by prostate) to full throbbing
tumescence. While naught but a "piss-hard", the marvelous phenom, the
great Blue Darter, continues to remind me of the halcyon,
mispsent/well-spent/often spent/not often enough spent days of my youth
(or the great tale of an aging rich man might say: "Bring me my baggy
trousers, Jeeves. Let's try to smuggle this one into the city!").
Talesin
> Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
> >Is it true that if a bunch of chicks live together in close proximity for an
> >extended period of time their periods will synchronize?
>
> Chickens synchronize their periods?! That's interesting.
>
> >Anyway, back to the science point. The female period is probably the closet
> >human thing to estrus in the animal world.
>
> By golly, I think you're on to something there.
>
> >Scent plays an important part in
> >letting male animals know the female is ready to mate. There could be a human
> >scent or pheromone that is detected but not on the concious level.
>
> Another breakthrough.
>
> --
> Carey Gregory
Females in the absence of artificial light will synchronize their periods with the
moon. Those living in close proximity with each other will synchronize with each
other. And that thing about menses being similar to estrus is total bullshit.
Estrus indicates sexual receptivity and ovulation- the best time to mate- is at
hand. Menses occurs just when the chance of fertilization is past. It is not an
indication to stimulate males to mate. No offense ladies but, when the field is
muddy, I would rather not play ball.
Where do you people get this stuff?
--
Talesin- Priest and Witch
Lara
[re menstrual synchrony]
> Nope, it's not an urban legend--it has scientific support. McClintock, I
> believe, published the first scientific study of it (in the 40s or 50s, if
> I remember correctly) in female dormitories.
ObULish content: (another random search find)
http://zebra.biol.sc.edu/smell/ann/myth3.html : Glacier National Park
issues a warning to female hikers not to hike whilst menstruating for fear
of bear attack, after two menstruating women were killed. The article
details the amusing attemnpts of researchers to debunk the warning.
I couldn't find Martha McClintock's original study on Medline, but here's
a pointer to the scanned article:
http://www.iinet.net.au/~waawa/mcclintock.jpg
McClintock's findings are still under dispute: here's an opposing view:
Two studies of menstrual synchrony: negative results.
Wilson HC, Kiefhaber SH, Gravel V
Psychoneuroendocrinology 1991 16:4 353-9
In 1971 McClintock reported menstrual synchrony in pairs and groups of
women who spent time together. The two studies reported herein, based on
the methods and research design introduced by McClintock, fail to
replicate her results. The first study is of a sample of 132 women who
were sorority members or roommates of sorority members living on the
campus of a large coeducational state university. The second study is of
a sample of 24 women who were members of a cooperative house near the same
university. In the subjects from both studies, the final mean onset
absolute difference is greater than the initial mean onset absolute
difference, and there are more nonsynchronous pairs of subjects than
synchronous pairs. The sample from the sorority study was progressively
reduced to exclude those subjects with irregular menstrual cycle lengths
and those pairs in which one subject was taking oral contraceptives.
Menstrual synchrony did not emerge in the reduced sample. Thus, whether or
not menstrual synchrony occurs among women who spend time together should
still be considered a hypothesis requiring further investigation.
Lara
Mary T
Their research showed that there was two ovulation cycles; one tied to the
lunar cycle. The female cycle is reset with geological relocation.
Logically, women living in the same household would experience the same
lunar cycle.
Soviet research also indicated a dual fertility period; one hormonal, the
other lunar. Another area covered in the paper was "virgin birth." The
research indicated that 1 ova in 1,000,000 (may be higher; I'm relying
completely on memory) divided without fertilization.
I can vouch for the lunar/geological shifts in cycles. Have moved half way
around the world more than a few times.
Cannot provide cites; has been far too long since I reviewed the material.
I don't have the time to look it up; however, it should prove interesting
reading if you can find it - try the Internet, someone may have put it up.
Mary T
Talesin wrote in message <36F5CCC6...@psynet.net>...
<snip>
Bret Wood
Mary T wrote:
>
> Soviet medical papers were published on this subject about 10 years ago.
> Their research showed that there was two ovulation cycles; one tied to the
> lunar cycle. The female cycle is reset with geological relocation.
> Logically, women living in the same household would experience the same
> lunar cycle.
...
> I can vouch for the lunar/geological shifts in cycles. Have moved half way
> around the world more than a few times.
The moon is the same phase from every vantage point on Earth. A
geological shift in your cycle would not imply a lunar influence.
-Bret Wood
-bret...@cs.uoregon.edu
Talesin
> Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
> >Is it true that if a bunch of chicks live together in close proximity for an
> >extended period of time their periods will synchronize?
>
> Chickens synchronize their periods?! That's interesting.
>
> >Anyway, back to the science point. The female period is probably the closet
> >human thing to estrus in the animal world.
>
> By golly, I think you're on to something there.
>
> >Scent plays an important part in
> >letting male animals know the female is ready to mate. There could be a human
> >scent or pheromone that is detected but not on the concious level.
>
> Another breakthrough.
>
> --
> Carey Gregory
Females in the absence of artificial light will synchronize their
periods with the
moon. Those living in close proximity with each other will synchronize
with each
other. And that thing about menses being similar to estX-Mozilla-Status:
0009
Shez
<swr...@iamerica.net> writes
>the rabid child wrote:
>>
>> I can attest from experience. I have a friend with whom we all
>> synchronize when we spend any time together in proximity.
>
>I think all you ladies/women/aspirants are simply 'zaggerating your team
>moves, for how could any sept in which a group of two or more is
>unlikely without several hours of fierce debate to be able to agree on
>any two courses of a three course meal or at which corner to turn right
>synchronize such an awesome display of the physical as menses as the
>peculiar state which precedes it?
>
>Now ponder the ease at which men synchronize...
>Each morn, as the sun sweeps its golden dawn across the face of the
>earth, Apollo follows, brushing lightly across the organs of males from
>callow boys to dithering grandads, raising almost each and every one of
>them (except those prostrated by prostate) to full throbbing
>tumescence. While naught but a "piss-hard", the marvelous phenom, the
>great Blue Darter, continues to remind me of the halcyon,
>mispsent/well-spent/often spent/not often enough spent days of my youth
>(or the great tale of an aging rich man might say: "Bring me my baggy
>trousers, Jeeves. Let's try to smuggle this one into the city!").
Reminds me of My fair Lady......." Why cant a woman be more like a man".
(grin) who wants to be a man. its much more fun being a woman,
If going to the loo in the morning brings on this sort of poetry, then I
am even more glad I am not a man,
For all your so called ability to Synchronize not one of you seem to be
able to hit a toilet without splashing, all those years of practice, and
you still cant aim worth a dam (chuckle)
Hope Munro Smith
> Where do you people get this stuff?
Obviously, the boy's room at junior high.
Hope "smokin' in the girl's room" Munro Smith
Hope Munro Smith
<Ch...@Piece.Face.org> wrote:
> I can attest from experience. I have a friend with whom we all
> synchronize when we spend any time together in proximity.
>
Me too. Since I"m on the Pill, mine can be used to set your watch.
All my roommates synchronized around me by the time the semester
was over.
Hope "watch setter" Munro Smith
Bob Byrne
Munro Smith) wrote:
>
>Me too. Since I"m on the Pill, mine can be used to set your watch.
>All my roommates synchronized around me by the time the semester
>was over.
>
>Hope "watch setter" Munro Smith
That's interesting. I wonder if there is an "alpha" female around
whose periods other females synchronize.
Bob Byrne
Happy Dog
> Females in the absence of artificial light will synchronize their periods with the
> moon. Those living in close proximity with each other will synchronize with each
> other. And that thing about menses being similar to estX-Mozilla-Status:0009
> Estrus indicates sexual receptivity and ovulation- the best time to mate- is at
> hand. Menses occurs just when the chance of fertilization is past. It is not an
> indication to stimulate males to mate. No offense ladies but, when the field is
> muddy, I would rather not play ball. Where do you people get this stuff?
Where do you get the bit about synchronizing with the moon? Why hasn't this been
observed in primates?
hd
Bear
> For all your so called ability to Synchronize not one of you seem to be
> able to hit a toilet without splashing, all those years of practice, and
> you still cant aim worth a dam (chuckle)
Oh, but we can.
We just don't want to.
--
Bear
Jaguar
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Mary T wrote:
> Soviet medical papers were published on this subject about 10 years ago.
> Their research showed that there was two ovulation cycles; one tied to the
> lunar cycle. The female cycle is reset with geological relocation.
> Logically, women living in the same household would experience the same
> lunar cycle.
Assuming they are not using a hormonal method of birth control.
The pill locks you into a cycle, so to speak.
> Soviet research also indicated a dual fertility period; one hormonal, the
> other lunar. Another area covered in the paper was "virgin birth." The
> research indicated that 1 ova in 1,000,000 (may be higher; I'm relying
> completely on memory) divided without fertilization.
It may divide, but it would not be viable, or make it to term.
It would only have half the chromosomes needed.
Gross chromosome abnormalities trigger spontaneous abortions, many of
which occur even before a woman notices she is pregnant.
Jaguar
Mary T
As for your assumptions and comments, most, I am afraid are only partially
correct. Chemistry is not the only factor which affects human biological
cycles.
Before condemning data you are unfamiliar with as invalid, you might try
expanding your knowledge base.
Medical research into the subject of women's health issues, for example, is
woefully lacking. Western medicine has always assumed that the female body
was "imperfect." Although equality has been legislated (in the US), data
remains markedly insufficient.
White males dominate as test subjects; however, the population comes in
many genders and races. Sit down and have a long discussion which any
physician who has a private practice in a predominately non-white population
center. They have been required to write their own prescribing protocols
for many drugs as the "standard" protocols are, in fact, quite deadly.
Mary T
Jaguar wrote in message ...
Talesin
Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> For all your so called ability to Synchronize not one of you seem to be
> able to hit a toilet without splashing, all those years of practice, and
> you still cant aim worth a dam (chuckle)
Goddess, Ken must be an absolute pig
--
Talesin- Priest and Witch
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Shez
>Shez wrote:
>
>> For all your so called ability to Synchronize not one of you seem to be
>> able to hit a toilet without splashing, all those years of practice, and
>> you still cant aim worth a dam (chuckle)
>
>
>We just don't want to.
Oh that's the excuse is it, well don't come round mine when your
desperate, having two men around the house at the moment is quite
enough.
Why didn't they put an aiming system in, and a route planner when they
designed men. the other thing I have noticed is no man ever admits he is
lost, and will never, ever, ask for directions,
I am sure it was a committee that designed men, (chuckle)
Maggie Newman
>
>White males dominate as test subjects; however, the population comes in
>many genders and races. Sit down and have a long discussion which any
>physician who has a private practice in a predominately non-white population
>center. They have been required to write their own prescribing protocols
>for many drugs as the "standard" protocols are, in fact, quite deadly.
>
Could you give me an example of a protocol that is standard for whites
but deadly for nonwhites? I have several friends in the health care
field whose clients are mostly nonwhite (most are not in "private practice"
though; why would this matter?) and I have never heard anything like this.
Maggie "the population on my planet comes in two genders and one
race" Newman
Jaguar
>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Mary T wrote:
> What is your point, Jaguar?
Point is: Hormonal methods of birth control, such as the pill, lock your
cycle in & prevent you from synchronizing with the cycles of other women.
Or the moon, for that matter.
2nd point: An unfertilized egg will not grow into a full term infant.
Half the chromosones that are necessary for development are missing.
> Did you bother to look up the research?
Which? For the 'virgin birth' from dividing ova?
When that contradicts the basics of what is known in biology & genetics?
Humans are diploid, human gametes (sex cells -sperm, ova) are haploid.
You can not get a diploid being from a ova unless it gets fertilized.
That is the fact of sexual reproduction.
Just because an unfertilized ova may divide, does not mean the cells will
then differentiate to make a new being. Cancer cells too divide....
Or for the pill stabilizing the menstrual cycle?
Anyone who has been on & off the pill notices this effect. Off of it, you
are "pulled" 'twords other womens cycle patterns. On it, your cycles
come like clock work, always three weeks between.
The pills are strong enough to over-ride your natural cycles & prevent
ovulation. More than enough to keep your cycles from sliding to correspond
to others around you.
Pills are also used to treat irregular menstrual cycles as well.
To change them from sporadic/erratic to mensturating regularly.
The hormones in them will not let you synchronize.
> As for your assumptions and comments, most, I am afraid are only partially
> correct. Chemistry is not the only factor which affects human biological
> cycles.
If you are on the pill, the chemistry of the hormones in them will
over-ride other factors. Which is why they work for contraception & as a
way to regulate irregular cycles.
> Before condemning data you are unfamiliar with as invalid, you might try
> expanding your knowledge base.
Of synchronizing of natural cycles, in women not using hormonal methods of
birth control, there is much evidence of that.
But the bit about the virgin birth from an unfertilized ova, a viable
haploid human forming... this flies in the face of what is known in
biology & genetics. It is on par with the flat earth theory.
About as accurate as some of the 'scientific' findings one finds in The
Weekly World News (a tabloid rag, known for outrageous tales & doctored
photos). If you crack open a biology or genetics book, you too would see
the problems with this.
> Medical research into the subject of women's health issues, for example, is
> woefully lacking. Western medicine has always assumed that the female body
> was "imperfect." Although equality has been legislated (in the US), data
> remains markedly insufficient.
Granted. Modern medicine deals best with things that can be cut or killed
(antibiotics). They are getting better at immune systems & soft tissue
injuries, & hormonal interactions. The weakest point is still the
mind-body link (my opinion)
But when poking at the holes (& there are many) in modern medicine, don't
go jumping to support any claim without researching it well.
Part of what cripples alternative medicine is folks are quick to believe
any claim, no matter how outrageous, without taking a critical look.
This destroys credibility.
The snake-oil salesmen profit, & give the pharmesutical companies
a wedge to drive out, legislate out or buy up alternative methods that
would give them competition.
> Mary T
Bear
Jim Ward wrote:
>
> Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
> >Now lets say you've got a sub with a women only crew. There should be
> >little problem with that. But would the entire crew crew synch up on their
> >period after six months at sea? I doubt this would cause a combat readiness
> >problem but even if it might there are probably some drugs they could
> >shoot them up with to fix any unlikely problem.
>
> I heard that NASA won't send a team of women astronauts to the moon
> because the trip would discombobulate the whole period/lunar cycle
> thing, and the astronauts would either explode or bleed to death.
Also, many of the scientific experiments done on the shuttle involve
either bio- or inorganic chemistry. Imagine the effect all this
periodic syncronization could have on the periodic table itself, upon
which all of this is based.
Transmutation. Decay. Oh, the humanity!
--
Bear
Mary T
myth.
When is stupidity like this going to end -- maybe when science figures out a
way for man to become pregnant and bear a child. Looks like we are still in
the cave-man era --- men still fear what they do not understand and cannot
do.
Mary T.
Jim Ward wrote in message <7d9eik$eeu$1...@news1.Radix.Net>...
Jim Ward
Jim Ward
>Is this ignorance or prejudice? Not an ounce of fact; just perpetuation of
>myth.
>When is stupidity like this going to end -- maybe when science figures out a
>way for man to become pregnant and bear a child. Looks like we are still in
>the cave-man era --- men still fear what they do not understand and cannot
>do.
I apoligize, it is both ignorance and prejudice. I get tired of having
the same opinions all the time. You get old and one day you discover
that you've had the same opinions for years. They're sort of like
carpets. All your friends agree they're perfectly nice, but in truth
they're somewhat threadbare and musty.
I suppose it's true that women's cycles don't follow the moon, and no
Astronauts are going to explode, or bleed to death, or be ravished by
space aliens in search of inter-galactic poon-tang, but the reality is
rather dull, isn't it?
Peter Ceresole
"Mary T" <bso...@ptialaska.net> wrote:
>>I heard that NASA won't send a team of women astronauts to the moon
>>because the trip would discombobulate the whole period/lunar cycle
>>thing, and the astronauts would either explode or bleed to death.
>Is this ignorance or prejudice? Not an ounce of fact; just perpetuation of
>myth.
I think it's known as a troll.
--
Peter
Wolfram Schmied
<bo...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>Human pheremones have been shown to affect menstration in many
>ways (a woman's first menstration is delayed (suppressed) if they
>are living with their biological father (incest avoidance) and
>accellerated (induced) if they are living with a non-related male;
Does not prove a thing about pheromones. It just demonstrates a
correlation between female menstruation and male presence.
What if the onset of menstruation is triggered by social interactions?
To me, a proof of the pheromone mechanism means exposing females to
the pheromones in question in the absence of males and showing there
is a significant correlation.
[snipper]
>Humans are unique among great apes in that females conceal estrus
>(often, even from themselves) and are continuously sexually receptive.
[snippest]
Where do you live? I want to move there! ;-)
Seriously, have you ever heard about the sex life of bonobos?
They usually have sex several times a day.
Wolfram 8-)#
adam robert boyko
> correlation between female menstruation and male presence.
> What if the onset of menstruation is triggered by social interactions?
> To me, a proof of the pheromone mechanism means exposing females to
> the pheromones in question in the absence of males and showing there
> is a significant correlation.
For logistical reasons, it would be difficult to do a study in humans
studying the onset of menstruation in girls artificially exposed to
different pheremones (and it would be impossible to control for other
social interactions). In primates, however, studies of ovulatory
suppression were done (orangutans and, I believe, tamarins) in which
simply being exposed to the scent of a dominant female inhibited
menstration in subordinate females. In humans, too, there has been work
which shows that merely dabbing another female's sweat on a woman's upper
lip leads her to adjust her menstral cycle towards that woman's.
(Interesting side note is that you can switch around the two women and the
same thing happens, meaning females are inherently predisposed to
synchronize with *any* female they encounter in this way, not just
"dominate" females, whatever that may mean in humans.)
> >Humans are unique among great apes in that females conceal estrus
> >(often, even from themselves) and are continuously sexually receptive.
> [snippest]
>
> Where do you live? I want to move there! ;-)
I suppose "potentially" continuously receptive may have been better.
This, of course, does not take into account the fact that males can "f**k
things up", so to speak--an artform which I think I've perfected ;)
> Seriously, have you ever heard about the sex life of bonobos?
> They usually have sex several times a day.
Yes, indeed they do. However in bonobos, females still display an estus
swelling (a relatively large, swollen, red area by their genitals) that
signals to everyone in the group that they are in a reproductive phase.
While sex does occur willy-nilly among bonobos with little regard to age
or gender for reasons as simple as tension or excitement, a female
exhibiting an estrus swelling becomes a prize much sought after by males
and much protected by the alpha male. No such analogy exists in humans.
In fact, the majority of women can't even tell when they ovulate (though
some can). In bonobos, a male can ensure paternity simply by mating with
a female (and excluding other males) at just the right time. In humans, a
male can only ensure paternity by mating continuously with a female and
excluding other males all the time. One explanation of this is that it is
a tactic employed by females to foster a committed, monogomous
relationship with their husband (a bit sexist, don't you think?).
--Adam
M.J.Powell
<j...@ignorethis.radix.net> writes
>Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
>>Now lets say you've got a sub with a women only crew. There should be
>>little problem with that. But would the entire crew crew synch up on their
>>period after six months at sea? I doubt this would cause a combat readiness
>>problem but even if it might there are probably some drugs they could
>>shoot them up with to fix any unlikely problem.
>
>because the trip would discombobulate the whole period/lunar cycle
>thing, and the astronauts would either explode or bleed to death.
With all those women astronauts so close to the moon it would be moree
likely that the moon's period would be altered.
--
Mike The life that I have
Is all that I have
And the life that I have
Is yours.
Mary T
like to read the science --
Mary T
1. E Hartman, " Dreaming Sleep ( The D State ) and the Menstrual Cycle",
Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, vol. 143 (1966), pp 406-16; and E M
Swanson and D Foulkes, "Dream Content and the Menstrual Cycle", Journal of
Nervous and Mental Disease, 145, no 5 (1968), pp 358-63.
2. F A Brown, " The clocks: Timing Biological Rhythms", American Scientist,
vol. 60 (1972), pp 756-66; M Gauguelin, "Wrangle Continues Over
Pseudoscientific Nature of Astrology", New Scientist ( Feb. 25, 1978 ); W
Menaker, "Lunar Periodicity" in Human Reproduction; A Likely unit of
Biological Time" American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, vol. 77, No
4 (1959), pp 905-14; and E M Dewan, "on the possibility of the perfect
rhythm method Of Birth Control by periodic Light Stimulation" American
Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, vol. 99, No 7 ( 1967 ), pp 1016-19
3 R P Michael, R W Bonsal and P Warner "Human Vaginal Secretion and Volatile
fatty acid content", science, vol. 186 (1974), pp 1217-19.
4 Demetra George, Mysteries Of The Dark Moon: The Healing power of the
Goddess ( Harper san Fransisco, 1992), pp 70-71.
5 Menaker, "Lunar Periodically" (see note 2).
6 Lunar data adapted from Caroline Myss.
7 Heartman, "Dreaming Sleep" and Swanson and Foulks, "Dream Content" (see
note 1).
8 Therese Benedek and Boris Rubinstein, "Correlations between Ovarian
Activity and Psycho Dynamic Process: The Ovulatory Phase`, Psycho dynamic
Medicine, vol. 1, no 2 (1939) pp 245-70.
9 Bernard C Gindes, "Cultural Hypnosis of the Menstrual cycle" New concepts
of hypnosis ( London: George Allen press, 1953 ).
10 Diane Ruble, "Pre-menstrual Symptoms. A Reinterpretation", science, vol.
197 ( July 15, 1977 ), pp 291-292.
11. Marija Gimbutas, goddess and god of old Europe, 7000 to 3500 BC
Berkley and Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1982 ).
MrKurtz
nice basteks they weave there)
Of courese, both cases of synchrinization have their
rather dark paralells in the lower animals (though how much lower
is...) In animal communities where one male leads a large
family of females, there are "rouge packs" of younger males
sharpening their genetic sticks to get strong enough to take over
an alpha males pack. These young bucks certainly wake "all
dressed up and nowhere to go." gets their day of angy
infighting and frustraded ass-fucking off on an agressive foot.
"just a reminder boy-- you one day older and still don't have
harem of your own."
When this feloow finally ousts an Alpha and takes over a
clan, the first thing he does is kill all the young babies
fathered by the departed alpha. The ladies protest, and try to
conceal when children are born after-the-fact...
So now these women get together in their "exile" and talk some
shit about the new Alpha-- is he worth it? Wouldn't it be nice
if the randy fellow with the sharp teeth who always beats up the
other drones for their entertainment would come over and beat
their new alpha. Then they would clean him up and settle him
down out of his Wild Ways. Perhaps we should make life hard on
the new alpha so he becomes vulnerable and another alpha can come
along. Maybe we could just gang up on him and kill him to avoid
mixing with his genes (but did you se the way he killed the other
alpha? the merciless manhood with which he killed my baby! I
screamed, but its kind of a turn on!)
Anyway, all the women get on a cycle with each other, to
keep the community fucking somewhat organized, to keep favoritism
to a minimum. They have a good week of estrus fuck-fest every
month, for those in waiting... Perhaps the alpha still has a
taste for ass-fucking, since that was how he proved his dominance
among the rogues, and perhaps the women get up to some very
intersting business up in "exile." Thank god we get to be alone
away from HIM for one week a month! Gives us time to make the
plans that REALLY run this show! The un-pregnant female is the
most powerful. magical being in the communtiy-- desired above all
the the alpha, envied by the oother women. She could do some real
damge... so we have a sort of ideology of shame around the
mensus... kind of "failed this month" meditation on how much she
wants to be pregnant...
when everyone knows she would rather be a sexy free agant..
she could go over to the rogues and really get some attention...
oh, thats a rather bad idea for obvious reasons. Its not that
the alpha protects the women and children so much as the system
protects the species from itself, gives the women a chance to
live in relative peace and rasie their children.
Anyway, I think SAD CATALLUS and I are still in the rogue
camp... but we're getting ready... in fact I read somethwere
that my friend catallus is rather badly taken with the "flashing
eyes" of a menstruating beauty! May she rest up in exile,
becuase once she stops bleeding, every dick in the city will perk
up in the morning with her face in its one starry eye!
>
>I think all you ladies/women/aspirants are simply 'zaggerating your team
>moves, for how could any sept in which a group of two or more is
>unlikely without several hours of fierce debate to be able to agree on
>any two courses of a three course meal or at which corner to turn right
>synchronize such an awesome display of the physical as menses as the
>peculiar state which precedes it?
>
>Now ponder the ease at which men synchronize...
>Each morn, as the sun sweeps its golden dawn across the face of the
>earth, Apollo follows, brushing lightly across the organs of males from
>callow boys to dithering grandads, raising almost each and every one of
>them (except those prostrated by prostate) to full throbbing
>tumescence. While naught but a "piss-hard", the marvelous phenom, the
>great Blue Darter, continues to remind me of the halcyon,
>mispsent/well-spent/often spent/not often enough spent days of my youth
>(or the great tale of an aging rich man might say: "Bring me my baggy
>trousers, Jeeves. Let's try to smuggle this one into the city!").
>TMOliver, el pelon sinverguenza
>From a small observatory overlooking McLennan Crossing
>
>- VESPER ADEST IUVENES CONSURGITE -
> Catullus
--Ball
"Anything could happen and it could be right now
and the choice is yours
to make it worthwhile"
--Clean
MrKurtz
>Now lets say you've got a sub with a women only crew. There should be
>little problem with that. But would the entire crew crew synch up on their
>period after six months at sea? I doubt this would cause a combat readiness
>problem but even if it might there are probably some drugs they could
>shoot them up with to fix any unlikely problem.
>
Am I the only one who finds the prospect of a bunch of women in a
giant pahllus cruising the deep blue sea, stealthy and obscure,
armed to the teeth, a deeply, deeply erotic image?
the idea of them being in menstural synch underwater, the
tides swelling and the giant phallus full of seamen... it becomes
erotic to the point where I am so intimidated I become afraid of
the as castration-happy amazons... and I'm in a little dingy on
the surface looking down into the waves, knowing they're down
there, going HOLY GOD SAVE MY SCRAWNY ASS FROM THOSE FEMALE
SEAMEN!
This topic actually justifes the rather lofty title of
"Folklore science" gotta love it!
Happy Dog
> As for the lunar cycle affecting the fertility cycle; poissibly you might
> like to read the science --
>
> Mary T
<science NOT snipped>
The articles you list do not offer scientific evidence establishing that the
moon affects menstrual cycles. Did you actually read this stuff? Except for
"Marija Gimbutas, goddess and god of old Europe, 7000 to 3500 BC", that is...
hd
wil...@my-dejanews.com
j...@ignorethis.radix.net (Jim Ward) wrote:
> Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
> >Now lets say you've got a sub with a women only crew. There should be
> >little problem with that. But would the entire crew crew synch up on their
> >period after six months at sea? I doubt this would cause a combat readiness
> >problem but even if it might there are probably some drugs they could
> >shoot them up with to fix any unlikely problem.
>
> because the trip would discombobulate the whole period/lunar cycle
> thing, and the astronauts would either explode or bleed to death.
ROTFLMAO!!!
:O
You guys are a crack up!
wildoak
Glenn Rice
>
> As for the lunar cycle affecting the fertility cycle; poissibly you might
> like to read the science --
If the lunar cycle really DOES affect the fertility cycle, then why
aren't all women in the world sychronized? The moon shines on every
corner of the globe. Just because the lengths of both cycles coincide
does not mean there is a connection between them. You and the other
"scientists" are confusing correlation with causation. The only physical
effect the moon has on the earth are the tides.
--
Glenn Rice Epiphyllum: www.missouri.edu/~extgrice/nbc
"No one can understand the truth until he
drinks of coffee's frothy goodness."
(Sheik Abd-al Kadir, 1587 A.D.)
Bailey Cameron
MrKurtz wrote:
> This topic actually justifes the rather lofty title of
> "Folklore science" gotta love it!
BAMPH!!! Thank you for playing Mr. Kurtz.
I got tired of all this bickering and false-fact throwing, and I dragged out my
copy of "Our Bodies, Our Selves (for the new century)" (my mom was a hippee) so
I could quote a FACT.
There weren't any. Grrrr...
However, there were a whole slew of contact numbers at the end of the "menses"
chapter. So I called one. I ended up talking to Dr. Alice Dan of the
University of Illinois (charming woman) who has a background in psychology and
researches periods and all things related. (Quote: "I love periods . . . it's
like music.") She really was lovely, and very helpful.
She said that synchronization DOES occur, and that it's a result of pheremones
and light (hence the tie with the moon - called Lunaception by those in the know
- the practice of using the moon as contraception - sounds creepy at first until
you realize that they're talking about the rhythm method, with a twist.).
Apparently there are hundreds of different cycles that the body has, including
the 24 hour day cycle, sleep cycles, etc. etc. and that they ALL have a
tendency to synch up, in men and in women. She didn't say WHY, other than that
it's just the way it is.
She said that pheromones communicate with each other and synchronize. MEN's
pheromones actually affect women's menstrual cycles. Women who are close with
men tend to have shorter cycles than women who do not hang out with a lot of
men.
This does not mean that those pheromone perfumes will help you get a date. We
had a good laugh over those, in fact.
She also said that there is no "alpha" characteristic involved, although some
women may have stronger pheremones than others, which would cause the weaker
womens' periods to synch up with the women with the stronger pheremones - this
has nothing to do with status. My uterus still can't pick my boss's uterus out
of a crowd.
Dr. Barbra Czerwinski of some school in Texas has actually studied Menses in
Outer Space, but that was just an interesting aside, I didn't look it up.
Dr. Dan told me that the Society for Menstrual Cycle Research is having a
conference at the University of Arizona from June 10-12, 1999. Hehehee... That
would be a fun family weekend, eh?
She also said that the leading authority on Menstrual Synchronicity is Martha
McClintock (University of Chicago). I searched her on the web and got all kinds
of info (Netscape Netsearch, I think). You can read her first article on the
subject at:
I haven't read the article yet, but if I find anything really cool, I'll post
it.
Now I'm off to call a mortician about dead peoples' eyes and mouths... As far
as I remember, they are sewn shut...
Uncle Cecil's Protege in Training,
Bailey
Bailey Cameron
Glenn Rice wrote:
> Mary T wrote:
> >
> > As for the lunar cycle affecting the fertility cycle; poissibly you might
> > like to read the science --
>
> If the lunar cycle really DOES affect the fertility cycle, then why
> aren't all women in the world sychronized? The moon shines on every
> corner of the globe. Just because the lengths of both cycles coincide
> does not mean there is a connection between them. You and the other
> "scientists" are confusing correlation with causation. The only physical
> effect the moon has on the earth are the tides.
It's not the moon itself, it's the light (and lack of it) attributed to the
moon by ancient peoples because it looked cool. Please refer to my really long
post later in this thread.
We're not all synchronized because you have to be in pretty close proximity and
spend a considerable amount of time with another woman before your pheremones
"talk" or do their thing or whatever... And my pheremones don't give a damn
what the women in India's pheremones are doing (it's too far away, and I spend
no time with them...).
Also, a couple million of us are on the pill, or taking depo provera, and that
screws everything up nicely.
Bailey
j...@radix.ignorethis.net
: She also said that the leading authority on Menstrual Synchronicity is Martha
: McClintock (University of Chicago).
I looks like Professor McClintock supports your view.
From: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s11122.htm
"But it doesn't look as though there's a leader or a conductor, you
know, like an orchestra conductor, or a timekeeper, or some dominant female
that's entraining the rest of the group, it's much more a case of shared
information and coming to an averaged consensus, if you will."
Thank you for doing the research.
Bailey Cameron
j...@radix.ignorethis.net wrote:
> Thank you for doing the research.
You're quite welcome... Actually, this is becoming more and more fascinating as I
delve deeper into the information out there... Check this out:
(lifted entirely from
http://www.mum.org/Odor.htm
with notes at the end of the article - Bailey)
Stinkin' Synchin' [this title is Anne Kitchell's, not the MUM director's]
The menstrual cycle not only produces odors, rumored to serve as attractive cues,
but reacts to external odors as well. One often hears of females living in close
proximity undergoing the synchronization of their menstruation onset times. In an
article published by Russell et al. (1980), it was stated that "menstrual
synchrony is not due to changes in food, awareness of menstrual timing or lunar
cycles, and [it is] suggested that the only significant factors seem to be the
amount of time the women spend together and
the lengths of their cycles." They conducted a really cool experiment in an
attempt to demonstrate if the olfactory cues of one very "regular" woman could
influence the timing of menstrual onset in other women.
Eleven women, whose mean age was 28.5 years, none of whom were lesbians or were
taking oral contraceptives, volunteered to have an odor placed on their upper lip
three times a week during a four month period. The odor was extracted from the
axillary region (the armpit!) of a female donor with a history of a very regular
menstrual cycle. She did not use underarm deodorant or perfumed soap, nor was she
allowed to wash under her arms during the odor gathering period. Odor collection
involved having the donor wear 4X4 cotton pads under her arms for 24 hours. The
subjects had the pads rubbed on their upper
lips and asked not to wash their faces for six hours. The group of control
subjects received the same treatment, with the exception that they did not receive
the odor. Test subjects and control subjects had no knowledge as to which group
they belonged.
The results indicated with statistical significance of p < 0.01 that odors from
one woman can influence the menstrual cycle of another. The mean difference in
days between the menstrual onset of tested subjects and the donor at the beginning
of the experiment was 9.2 days. This average decreased to 3.4 days by the end of
the experiment with four of the five subjects synchronizing to within one day of
the donor's onset. The control group averaged 8.0 days from the donor's onset in
the pre-treatment month and 9.2 days in
the post-treatment month.
The possibility was noted that "the mechanism of [odor] transfer did not involve
the nose at all, but diffusion of chemical compounds through the skin which may
occur when the sample was placed on the subject's upper lip." If compounds placed
under the nose were volatile and the subject unaware of their presence, then can
one properly use the term "odor" anyway?
The olfactory influences on the menstrual cycle of crab-eating monkeys (Macaca
fascicularis) have been studied along the same lines as human synch experiments.
Wallis et al. (1986) placed twelve female monkeys in adjacent cages allowing for
the occurrence of physical contact. Only one of the females had a history of
regularly-timed menstruation. A control set was established in the same manner
with the exception that cages were situated far enough apart so no physical
contact was possible. Within the course of the six-month study, the experimental
subjects with irregular flow tended to normalize, although cycle
synchronization was not observed as a trend. In the control group, irregular
subjects continued to experience abnormally long cycles. The authors suggested,
"Close physical contact may serve to transmit chemical and/or hormonal cues that
can normalize the menstrual cycle of crab-eating monkeys."
References:
Russell, M.J., G.M. Switz, and K. Thompson. 1980. Olfactory influences on the
human menstrual cycle. Pharmacol, Biochem., & Behav. 13: 737-738.
Wallis, J. 1986. The effect of female proximity and social interaction on the
menstrual cycle of crab-eating monkeys (Macaca fascicularis). Primates 27(1):
83-94.
Doty, R.L. 1981. Olfactory communication in humans. Chem. Senses 6(4): 351-376.
McClintock, M.K. 1971. Menstrual synchrony and suppression. Nature 229: 244-245.
*****
I sometimes can't believe wat some people do in the name of science!!! I won't be
signing up for this one, that's for sure!!!
This whole article (www.mum.org/odor.htm) was interesting. I'd encourage all of
you to check it out, if you're interested in such things (as I am, apparently, who
knew? Perhaps I've found my calling! Screw waiting tables, I'm going to research
menstruation! I wonder if I'll make tips...?)
Eeeeewwww,
Bailey
Gerald Belton
<bail...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>However, there were a whole slew of contact numbers at the end of the "menses"
>chapter. So I called one. I ended up talking to Dr. Alice Dan of the
>University of Illinois (charming woman) who has a background in psychology and
>researches periods and all things related. (Quote: "I love periods . . . it's
>like music.") She really was lovely, and very helpful.
It appears from DejaNews that you are a regular in alt.fan.cecil-adams
and are contributing to this thread from there. I'm reading it in
alt.folklore.urban, where we are all impressed with folks who do Real
Research instead of just weighing in with "I thought..."
This was a great post. Come over and check us out.
Gerald
Bailey Cameron
Gerald Belton wrote:
> It appears from DejaNews that you are a regular in alt.fan.cecil-adams
> and are contributing to this thread from there. I'm reading it in
> alt.folklore.urban, where we are all impressed with folks who do Real
> Research instead of just weighing in with "I thought..."
>
> This was a great post. Come over and check us out.
I'll subscribe today, thank you very much for the invite, and for the praise! :)
Please come join alt.fan.cecil-adams (if you don't know, he's the author of the
Straight Dope, which can be found at www.straightdope.com - he answers all kinds of
obscure questions and seems to know just about everything!) The folks in this NG
sure know how to argue!!! :) I mean that in the nicest possible way!
Bailey Cameron
(who loves a good arguement!)
Ulo Melton
>I'll subscribe today, thank you very much for the invite, and for the praise! :)
Ruh-roh.
>The folks in this NG
>sure know how to argue!!! :)
>Bailey Cameron
>(who loves a good arguement!)
You're going to have an orgasm here.
Ulo Melton
Anonymous
> j...@ignorethis.radix.net (Jim Ward) wrote:
>> Artemis <artemis...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Now lets say you've got a sub with a women only crew. There should be
>> >little problem with that. But would the entire crew crew synch up on their
>> >period after six months at sea? I doubt this would cause a combat readiness
>> >problem but even if it might there are probably some drugs they could
>> >shoot them up with to fix any unlikely problem.
>>
>> I heard that NASA won't send a team of women astronauts to the moon
>> because the trip would discombobulate the whole period/lunar cycle
>> thing, and the astronauts would either explode or bleed to death.
>
>ROTFLMAO!!!
>:O
>You guys are a crack up!
Best Bumper Sticker: "I have PMS ... and a Gun"
Chris W.
Bailey Cameron wrote:
>
> Gerald Belton wrote:
> > This was a great post. Come over and check us out.
>
> I'll subscribe today, thank you very much for the invite, and for the praise! :)
Uh, just a few things; here at AFU, we (referring to the model majority
of AFUista, [1]) don't use smileys. Please refer to the AFU FAQ at
http://www.urbanlegends.com/ to find out why that is, and the answer to
many more questions you may have about AFU.
> Bailey Cameron
> (who loves a good arguement!)
So what's your take on the usage of 'sie' as a non-gender specific
pronoun?
a) it's acceptable on usenet so women aren't offended when referring to
someone who may be male or female because hir name is neutral (like
Chris or Bailey).
b) it's a condescending, tortured, clumsy construct, dammit, and is only
used by pretentious pedants who sound like Tweety Bird.
c) The use of the word 'he' to identify an unknown individual would
likely cause the individual in question to endure future personal
failures.
d) if I really cared, I'd argue my point in the thread with the subject
"Non-Gender Specific Pronouns" down the hall instead of answering this
off-topic post.
Welcome to AFU. You're in luck. Membership dues are half-priced today
at one seventy-five.
[1]Although it might look that way at first, there is no Sekrut Kabal
*TINSK*
Chris "just to keep this post on-topic, here ya go - .."Webb
Also be sure to check out http://snopes.simplenet.com/
and http://www.dejanews.com/ for more.
David H. Siegel
> Welcome to AFU. You're in luck. Membership dues are half-priced today
> at one seventy-five.
One twenty-five, I believe you mean.
I'm going to assume you weren't looking to take advantage of the special
offer to pocket the difference.
--
David "Three-fifty?[1] That's too damn much for a recipe." Siegel
dh...@columbia.edu
<Webpage Coming Soonish>
"And I don't care what they say, I don't see how to exactly calibrate a
leech." -Lizz Holmans
[1] Although St. Brunvand does reference a variant with this amount in
CBA.
JasCJones
>race" Newman
Oh yeh? Around here we divide ourselves into two groups. Ford truck owners and
Dodge truck owners.
Jim "Chevy truck owners - they're like trained monkees. Bad imitation of the
real thing" Jones
Even if two $80,000 otters were consumed within minutes of being released,
think of that as $160,000 towards the killer whales....
(It) really isn't that much when you think about it. Especially when Exxon is
paying half. - Derek Tearne on A.F.U.
Bailey Cameron
"Chris W." wrote:
> Uh, just a few things; here at AFU, we (referring to the model majority
> of AFUista, [1]) don't use smileys. Please refer to the AFU FAQ at
> http://www.urbanlegends.com/ to find out why that is, and the answer to
> many more questions you may have about AFU.
Life is too short to read a 156 K FAQ, however, I perused, and I get the jist of the
smileys, although the logic behind banning them is sketchy at best (grumpy at worst,
IMHO)... But I'm a go-with-the-flow kind of girl...
> So what's your take on the usage of 'sie' as a non-gender specific
> pronoun?
I don't like it, mostly because I don't know if it's pronounced "see" or "sigh" or
something else. It would be very convenient to have a gender neutral pronoun, I'm
thinking something along the lines of "ve". For the following reasons:
1) I can't think of a gender specific word (like Mom or Dad or he or she or sister or
brother, etc.) that begins with "V", therefore V is unbiased.
2) I know how to pronounce it.
3) It lends itself to all sorts of "ve have vays to make you talk" jokes.
4) It sounds similar to "he" "she" "me" and "we", and would therefore follow normal
speech patterns...
Ve said that I was a turkey.
He said that I was a turkey.
She said that I was a turkey.
All sound similar.
5) Would insert itself nicely into poetry.
Personally, I've never had a problem with "s/he", and having a gender ambiguous name,
I'm one to talk...
Looking forward to ticking you off with smileys! Hehehe...
Bailey
me
Bailey Cameron <bail...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<36FA749F...@hotmail.com>...
>
> References:
>
> Russell, M.J., G.M. Switz, and K. Thompson. 1980. Olfactory influences on
the
I was going to reply to your earlier posts, suggesting that your citation
methodology may need a little more work. Thanks for leaving in the
`military' froup, as it left me one little quibble.
Welcome. You are a breath of fresh air in the cesspit Usenet has become.
Gary S. Callison
: It appears from DejaNews that you are a regular in alt.fan.cecil-adams
: and are contributing to this thread from there. I'm reading it in
: alt.folklore.urban, where we are all impressed with folks who do Real
: Research instead of just weighing in with "I thought..."
: This was a great post. Come over and check us out.
Hmm. Now, I've been a regular here (afca) for a while, and having yet to
weigh in on the 'afu-bashing' issue, but this is the sort of thing which
pass I will not let.
A COMPLIMENT? From AFU?
--
Huey
Never thought I'd see the day. Are they trying to change their image?
;-)
Shez
<gbe...@wraz.com> writes
>On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:15:41 +0000, Bailey Cameron
><bail...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>However, there were a whole slew of contact numbers at the end of the "menses"
>>chapter. So I called one. I ended up talking to Dr. Alice Dan of the
>>University of Illinois (charming woman) who has a background in psychology and
>>researches periods and all things related. (Quote: "I love periods . . .
>it's
>>like music.") She really was lovely, and very helpful.
>
>and are contributing to this thread from there. I'm reading it in
>alt.folklore.urban, where we are all impressed with folks who do Real
>Research instead of just weighing in with "I thought..."
>
>This was a great post. Come over and check us out.
>
>
It was a great post, I am posting from alt Pagan, and found it not only
interesting but well researched as well, considering how little time was
involved.
Your wasted waiting on tables,
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
Rusty Wallace
> It would be very convenient to have a gender neutral pronoun, I'm
>thinking something along the lines of "ve". For the following reasons:
I've frequently used 'e' as a spoken gender neutral pronoun. "What
else could e do?" I'm not sure about using it as a written form, but
it would be an alternative to 've' that meets all of the criteria you
listed.
Rusty "yes, the ortiose arsehole" Wallace
Madeleine Page
: Rusty "yes, the ortiose arsehole" Wallace
As this is the third time you've claimed this title for yourself (having
had it freely and generously bestowed by She Who Shall Not Be Named), I'm
beginning to think you're campaigning to have the name as your entry on
the Aminal List.
Just say the word, dear boy, say the word.
Madeleine "Sow of Despond" Page
Chris W.
"David H. Siegel" wrote:
>
> "Chris W." wrote:
>
> > Welcome to AFU. You're in luck. Membership dues are half-priced today
> > at one seventy-five.
*blink, blink* Did I write _that_?
>
> One twenty-five, I believe you mean.
>
> I'm going to assume you weren't looking to take advantage of the special
> offer to pocket the difference.
Who, _me_? I don't even have access to the AFU coffers.
> [1] Although St. Brunvand does reference a variant with this amount in
> CBA.
That's my excuse. Been reading far too much Brunvand.
Chris Webb
Greg Goss
>Gerald Belton (gbe...@wraz.com) wrote:
>: It appears from DejaNews that you are a regular in alt.fan.cecil-adams
>: and are contributing to this thread from there. I'm reading it in
>: alt.folklore.urban, where we are all impressed with folks who do Real
>: Research instead of just weighing in with "I thought..."
>:
>: This was a great post. Come over and check us out.
>
>Hmm. Now, I've been a regular here (afca) for a while, and having yet to
>weigh in on the 'afu-bashing' issue, but this is the sort of thing which
>pass I will not let.
>
>A COMPLIMENT? From AFU?
It reflects a cultural difference. We recruit some of the more
chaotic posters from AFU, and they recruit some of the better
reference-checking posters from our group.
We can be friendlier because we are smaller. If we had the volume of
AFU, I bet we'd be rude and abrupt, too.
MrKurtz
<bail...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>MrKurtz wrote:
>
>> This topic actually justifes the rather lofty title of
>> "Folklore science" gotta love it!
>
>BAMPH!!! Thank you for playing Mr. Kurtz.
>
>I got tired of all this bickering and false-fact throwing, and I dragged out my
>copy of "Our Bodies, Our Selves (for the new century)" (my mom was a hippee) so
>I could quote a FACT.
>
The problem with relying on scicnce in this case is that IT KNOWS
NEXT TO NOTHING, and the fact that we must enculterate ourselves
using only FACTS and FIGURES over a very primal and essentailly
human issue like the cycles of the body and mind's connection
with the cycles of nature IS SAD AS HELL! I'm not saying we
should run out and join the next self-help cult-of-mesus that
roars through town, but the REPRESSION of demadning HARD EVIDENCE
over THE BLOOD POURING OUT OF MY or my wife's BODY is SICK, is
sick sick sick.... I said I dig "Folklore.science" combo and I
meant it becuase i thought I'd finally gotten away from
positivist ass-clenchers who cant just enjoy a little
armcharirerery for some thoughts it might provoke. FOLKLORE is
where its at. Science is myth and witchcraft just like anything
else. What's my latest transcription? what' my methodology?
My latest transcription is I'M LOST!
What's at stake here is not THE HARD TRUTH but WHO WE ARE.
Scicne is a puny tool toward that great adventure, and if we
can't take the understanding and humiltiy before, and exaltation
of our bodies and our experiences above FACTS as STERILE AS ONE
OF THOSE OB-GYN STIRRUP CHAIRS, then it doesn't matter what the
MOON is up to, BECUASE WE DON'T CARE! WE"RE DOWN HERE WITH THE
HORMONES AND THE MICROWAVE OVENS! THERE WERE NO MIRACLES AT THE
SEVEN_ELEVEN!
"The Body Remembers"...do you?
--Ball
The Blues is, its... Kinda hard t'explain.
--Lightenin Hopkins
TMOliver
...snipped, all but a piece of the sig, for the quote from LH (whom I
used to watch regularly was the only bit of merit in the post)...
>
> The Blues is, its... Kinda hard t'explain.
> --Lightenin Hopkins
That's "Ligtning" who lighteneh my load...
Are you this full of shit all the time, or is this a temporary condition
aggravated by moon phase or spring neap?
Allover Stripes
Just to be overly pedantic, this is the Spivak set of gender-neutral
pronouns[1], invented by mathematician Michael Spivak and used in eir[2]
excellent calculus textbooks.
Masculine Feminine Neutral Plural Spivak
he she it they e
him her it them em
his her its their eir
his hers its theirs eirs
himself herself itself themselves emself
I personally favor M. to go with this (M. Chretien is the prime
minister of this "democracy") since it's familiar from French.
To see why this might come up (well, not really) you might want to see
http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/nborisov/girls.html for some of the
more normal folks around this University.
Andrew "To be precise, not merely pedantic, but..." Archibald
[1]See the Gender Neutral Pronouns FAQ, http://www.lumina.net/gnp/
[2]Opinions differ on whether to use gender-neutral pronouns even when
the gender of the author is known.
Peter Ceresole
p...@outrageous.net (MrKurtz) wrote:
>Science is myth and witchcraft just like anything
>else.
Now as bullshit goes, that's *real* bullshit.
--
Peter
Gary Soucie
too wrapped up in the white knightery of science, read Bronislaw
Malinowski's classic work, Magic, Science, and Religion. They share an
awful lot--more than the true believers in any of the camps would admit.
bon...@full-moon.com
> > As for the lunar cycle affecting the fertility cycle; poissibly you might
> > like to read the science --
> The articles you list do not offer scientific evidence establishing that the
> moon affects menstrual cycles. Did you actually read this stuff? Except for
> "Marija Gimbutas, goddess and god of old Europe, 7000 to 3500 BC", that is...
> hd
I remember reading about a study a few years ago which looked at the
menstrual cycle in industrial vs. pre-industrial societies. They found that
in pre-industrial societies, where people do not have access to bright
artificial lights after the sun goes down, puberty starts later in girls, and
the menstrual cycle is more regular than in industrialized societies. Perhaps
there is a scientific basis for suggesting that the cycle of the moon (and
the increase and decrease of light that the moon is reflecting could be
related to the length of women's menstrual cycles -- has anyone seen
any other research about the light/menstrual relationship?
Of course, there are other factors that do affect women's menstrual
cycles; recent research has indicated that not only do women who
are living together for long periods of time tend to synchronize, so that
they menstruate all at the same time, but they've also found that women
who live with a man tend to have more regular periods. The various
studies of this phenomenon that I've read about suggest that
pheromones are responsible for these changes in the menstrual cycle.
Bon Johnston
bon...@full-moon.com
http://www.sacredsexuality.net/
-----------------------------------------------
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http://tarot.tsx.org/
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-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Peter Ceresole
Gary Soucie <ga...@spyral.net> wrote:
>Yeah, the perpetrator of that BS is full of it. However, before you get
>too wrapped up in the white knightery of science, read Bronislaw
>Malinowski's classic work, Magic, Science, and Religion. They share an
>awful lot--more than the true believers in any of the camps would admit.
I think good scientists don't so much as admit it as much as take it into
consideration. The fact is that at base, science (which is just a method)
is checkable, open and repeatable and in that it is a unique form of human
endeavour, and uniquely capable.
--
Peter
Madeleine Page
: I remember reading about a study a few years ago which looked at the
: menstrual cycle in industrial vs. pre-industrial societies. They found that
: in pre-industrial societies, where people do not have access to bright
: artificial lights after the sun goes down, puberty starts later in girls, and
: the menstrual cycle is more regular than in industrialized societies. Perhaps
: there is a scientific basis for suggesting that the cycle of the moon (and
: the increase and decrease of light that the moon is reflecting could be
: related to the length of women's menstrual cycles
Sorry, but without a huge amount more information, this is manifestly
Silly Science.
Think for a minute about the differences between industrial and
pre-industrial societies. Yup, the former have artificial light and the
latter do not. But the same is true of diesel fuel, elevators, vitamin
supplements, French poodles, frozen waffles and marzipan-iced fruitcake.
: Perhaps there is a scientific basis for suggesting that the cycle of the
: moon (and the increase and decrease of light that the moon is reflecting
: could be related to the length of women's menstrual cycles
Well, until you've shown that we're not talking about the French Poodle
effect on menstruation, this is the merest handwaving. Furthermore, I
think you'd be hard put to it to demonstrate that the number of lumens
provided by the moon makes sod-all difference (hi, Ben!) to anything much,
least of all menstruation.
: -- has anyone seen
: any other research about the light/menstrual relationship?
Or about the frozen waffle/menstrual relationship?
Madeleine "correlation is not causation" Page
Follwups fairly arbitrarily confined to sci.med and alt.fan.cecil-adams in
the interests of cutting down on cross-posting.
Simon Slavin
Anonymous <nob...@replay.com> wrote:
> [nothing of interest]
Those of you considering to following-up to this post might like to
trim their newsgroups lines from the original
sci.skeptic,
alt.fan.cecil-adams,
alt.folklore.urban,
soc.women,
alt.pagan,
alt.folklore.military
unless, of course, you've read the FAQs for all these groups and know
what kind of post they welcome. Thanks for your forethough.
Simon.
--
No junk email please. | What a story !
<http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk> | I can't wait to embellish it.
| -- Elaine from _Ally McBeal_
madw...@iname.com
one who thinks this is worth answering except annoyed me, i give
you my final view of it and then YOU STOP POSTING TO
ALT.FOLKLORE.MILITARY, where it DOESN'T belong, okay??!!
On my observation -quite some time i was working in an
all-women-project- periods DO NOT synchronise. We NEVER had our
periods all on the same days, not in years!
Apart from this, in early 1940ies occupied Poland some Nazi docs tried
to find it out the hard way by sentencing women to death and watching
what their periods were like. Some got their period, some not. There
was no statistical effect whatsoever, and the sample was big enough
for statistics.
so, if you believe in the moon, do it, and don't bore people like me
with it.
On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:48:43 -0500, Jaguar <jag...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Mary T wrote:
>> What is your point, Jaguar?
>
>Point is: Hormonal methods of birth control, such as the pill, lock your
>cycle in & prevent you from synchronizing with the cycles of other women.
>Or the moon, for that matter.
>
>2nd point: An unfertilized egg will not grow into a full term infant.
> Half the chromosones that are necessary for development are missing.
but cloning is possible.
>
>> Did you bother to look up the research?
>
>Which? For the 'virgin birth' from dividing ova?
>When that contradicts the basics of what is known in biology & genetics?
>Humans are diploid, human gametes (sex cells -sperm, ova) are haploid.
>You can not get a diploid being from a ova unless it gets fertilized.
>That is the fact of sexual reproduction.
>Just because an unfertilized ova may divide, does not mean the cells will
>then differentiate to make a new being. Cancer cells too divide....
>
>Or for the pill stabilizing the menstrual cycle?
>Anyone who has been on & off the pill notices this effect. Off of it, you
>are "pulled" 'twords other womens cycle patterns. On it, your cycles
>come like clock work, always three weeks between.
>The pills are strong enough to over-ride your natural cycles & prevent
>ovulation. More than enough to keep your cycles from sliding to correspond
>to others around you.
>Pills are also used to treat irregular menstrual cycles as well.
>To change them from sporadic/erratic to mensturating regularly.
>The hormones in them will not let you synchronize.
>
>> As for your assumptions and comments, most, I am afraid are only partially
>> correct. Chemistry is not the only factor which affects human biological
>> cycles.
>
>If you are on the pill, the chemistry of the hormones in them will
>over-ride other factors. Which is why they work for contraception & as a
>way to regulate irregular cycles.
>
>> Before condemning data you are unfamiliar with as invalid, you might try
>> expanding your knowledge base.
>
>Of synchronizing of natural cycles, in women not using hormonal methods of
>birth control, there is much evidence of that.
>
>But the bit about the virgin birth from an unfertilized ova, a viable
>haploid human forming... this flies in the face of what is known in
>biology & genetics. It is on par with the flat earth theory.
>About as accurate as some of the 'scientific' findings one finds in The
>Weekly World News (a tabloid rag, known for outrageous tales & doctored
>photos). If you crack open a biology or genetics book, you too would see
>the problems with this.
>
>> Medical research into the subject of women's health issues, for example, is
>> woefully lacking. Western medicine has always assumed that the female body
>> was "imperfect." Although equality has been legislated (in the US), data
>> remains markedly insufficient.
>
>Granted. Modern medicine deals best with things that can be cut or killed
>(antibiotics). They are getting better at immune systems & soft tissue
>injuries, & hormonal interactions. The weakest point is still the
>mind-body link (my opinion)
>
>But when poking at the holes (& there are many) in modern medicine, don't
>go jumping to support any claim without researching it well.
>Part of what cripples alternative medicine is folks are quick to believe
>any claim, no matter how outrageous, without taking a critical look.
>This destroys credibility.
>The snake-oil salesmen profit, & give the pharmesutical companies
>a wedge to drive out, legislate out or buy up alternative methods that
>would give them competition.
>
>> Mary T
>
>> >>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Mary T wrote:
>> >> Soviet medical papers were published on this subject about 10 years ago.
>> >> Their research showed that there was two ovulation cycles; one tied to
>> >> the
>> >> lunar cycle. The female cycle is reset with geological relocation.
>> >> Logically, women living in the same household would experience the same
>> >> lunar cycle.
>
>> >Assuming they are not using a hormonal method of birth control.
>> >The pill locks you into a cycle, so to speak.
>
>> >> Soviet research also indicated a dual fertility period; one hormonal,
>> >> the
>> >> other lunar. Another area covered in the paper was "virgin birth." The
>> >> research indicated that 1 ova in 1,000,000 (may be higher; I'm relying
>> >> completely on memory) divided without fertilization.
>
>> >It may divide, but it would not be viable, or make it to term.
>> >It would only have half the chromosomes needed.
>> >Gross chromosome abnormalities trigger spontaneous abortions, many of
>> >which occur even before a woman notices she is pregnant.
>> >Jaguar
>
----------
*madwoman*
----------
Talesin
Always the Brits trying to run the show. . .
--
Talesin- Priest and Witch
bil
bon...@full-moon.com wrote in message <7djs4o$rnt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Of course, there are other factors that do affect women's menstrual
>cycles; recent research has indicated that not only do women who
>are living together for long periods of time tend to synchronize, so that
>they menstruate all at the same time,....
And Snip...
>Bon Johnston
>bon...@full-moon.com
>http://www.sacredsexuality.net/
And leave a formality then go on...
I teach color guard with H.S. marching bands and winter color guard ( don't
ask, not relevant..) and one of our running jokes as staff members is how
long it takes our girls to begin to cycle together. Of an average 30 girls
we'll get 25 or so together by the end of a 3 month period (no pun
intended.)
This might seem like some trivial information, but then you've probably
never told 25 (or so) girls who are menstruating to run around in circles
and then do the splits for 6 hours. We instructors learn to fear those
weekends when those of us who will never understand their pain have to
ignore it... because they seem to gang up and make sure we understand an
equal level of discomfort just to be fair. Aren't they generous...
Anyhow- I'd say both a UL and reality when it comes to menstruation... not
enough research has been done on it to fully cover all aspects that might be
ULs (and hence, prove that they are ULs and not reality). And some are
(painfully) obvious to any who (are forced to) encounter it in their lives.
-bil
"the-guy-who-thinks-long-signature-files-are-a-waste-of-both-band-width-and-
time-becuase-no-one-reads-them"
"insert any quote you'd like and save some bandwidth"
Becca Ward
> Simon Slavin wrote:
<a suggestion that folks posting to this thread consider trimming
newsgroups from their headers>
> Always the Brits trying to run the show. . .
Uh, right.
I've set follow-ups into alt.folklore.urban only. If anyone wants to know
the reasons why Simon Slavin made his request, please feel free to ask in
afu -- or to contact me via email.
Becca Ward
--
Bruce is apparently interested in relevant facts, for some
unaccountable reason, whereas I am interested in juicy gossip.
-- Deborah Stevenson
Bailey Cameron
> I teach color guard with H.S. marching bands and winter color guard
When I was in high school (5 years ago) girls were allowed to elect out of gym
classes and sports practices when they were having their periods. Is this no
longer the case?
> This might seem like some trivial information, but then you've probably
> never told 25 (or so) girls who are menstruating to run around in circles
> and then do the splits for 6 hours. We instructors learn to fear those
> weekends when those of us who will never understand their pain have to
> ignore it... because they seem to gang up and make sure we understand an
> equal level of discomfort just to be fair. Aren't they generous...
I would have to say that I agree with the girls. Given the significant failure
rate of feminine hygene products, the last thing I would want to do while
relying on them would have to be the splits. Second to last would be
swimming... Sure all the commercials tell you that you can, but all the
commercials MUST be made by men!
To make those weekends more tolerable, you might allow extra bathroom breaks.
Also, an enlightened male in such circumstances might take along some Midol (or
even plain ibuprophen) for the girls who get really bad cramps, if your school
allows you to do so. And if you know those days are coming, couldn't you
schedule them to just march or twirl batons or something?
> Anyhow- I'd say both a UL and reality when it comes to menstruation... not
> enough research has been done on it to fully cover all aspects that might be
> ULs (and hence, prove that they are ULs and not reality). And some are
> (painfully) obvious to any who (are forced to) encounter it in their lives.
Please DejaNews my posts on this subject, because I did the research and found
that there are a lot of people researching the topic. Apparently it is a real
phenomenon which has to do with pheremones and the like...
Bailey
H Gilmer
Bailey Cameron (bail...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: When I was in high school (5 years ago) girls were allowed to elect out of gym
: classes and sports practices when they were having their periods. Is this no
: longer the case?
When I was in junior high & high school (1981-1986) this was assuredly
not the case, unless someone was in such pain they could do nothing
but lie in the nurse's office until the parents came to take them
home. Sounds like your admin was a bucha suckers.
Hg
p.s. AFU thread tie-in: notice singular "they" used automatically
with "someone" even in a sex-specific context; I wouldn't even have
noticed it except for the recent discussions.
alice faber
>sci.med removed from followups.
sci.skeptic & that cecil adams group trimmed; I try not to post to groups
I don't read.
>Bailey Cameron (bail...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>: When I was in high school (5 years ago) girls were allowed to elect out of gym
>: classes and sports practices when they were having their periods. Is this no
>: longer the case?
>When I was in junior high & high school (1981-1986) this was assuredly
>not the case, unless someone was in such pain they could do nothing
>but lie in the nurse's office until the parents came to take them
>home. Sounds like your admin was a bucha suckers.
In the 1960's (non-L), we could opt out of phys ed during our periods;
it took us a while to realize that the gym teacher kept track of the
frequency with which we invoked that exception. I don't think the
school nurse ever got involved.
Back then, we all firmly believed that virgins *physically* couldn't
use tampons. Since showers were usual after PE class, I suspect that
the exemption might have been due to the logistical difficulties
imposed by the godawful belts, pads, and pins that were the only
alternative.
Alice "and, no, we didn't all opt out on the same day" Faber
Mitcho
>
> p.s. AFU thread tie-in: notice singular "they" used automatically
> with "someone" even in a sex-specific context; I wouldn't even have
> noticed it except for the recent discussions.
Can't fool me, Hank. You weren't being hip and progressive; you were
being sloppy.
Mitcho
--
The Urban Redneck o ozy...@employees.org o Goat Hill, California
http://www.employees.org/~ozyman
H Gilmer
: H Gilmer wrote:
: >
: > p.s. AFU thread tie-in: notice singular "they" used automatically
: > with "someone" even in a sex-specific context; I wouldn't even have
: > noticed it except for the recent discussions.
: Can't fool me, Hank. You weren't being hip and progressive; you were
: being sloppy.
Fuck that, dude, I am the voice of my generation. Or maybe I picked
it up from my younger sister.
Hg
Chris W.
read)
Bailey Cameron wrote:
> When I was in high school (5 years ago) girls were allowed to elect out of gym
> classes and sports practices when they were having their periods.
Why on earth would that be?
Is this no
> longer the case?
It wasn't the case when I was in phys. ed. (L. 15 years ago). I don't
see any reason girls should be able to opt out. I still am very
physically active, and swim, bike, and hike even during that time of the
month. However, I did figure in Jr. High that my (female!) teachers
could be more forgiving when telling you what gymnastic feat you must
perform to earn an passing grade. I carry a very personal and
embarrassing memory of being told I must perform a two minute (inverted)
Teddy Bear stand (with the whole class watching) to pass a test.
Certainly I didn't to carry that mental anguish through life with me.
And as far as synchronizing periods goes, it just so happens that it
always appeared that when I was living in the same dwelling as my mother
and sister, our bathroom garbage was always full at the same time every
month.
Chris Webb
Deborah Stevenson
>(newsgroups trimmed to alt.folklore.urban, cuz that's the only one I
>read)
>Bailey Cameron wrote:
>> When I was in high school (5 years ago) girls were allowed to elect out of gym
>> classes and sports practices when they were having their periods.
>Why on earth would that be?
All? I dunno. However, I suffered from incapacitating cramps as a
teenager, and had I participated in organized gym there would definitely
would have been periodic periods, as it were, where I would have had to
bow out of thundering across the field with whatever the relevant
implement would have been.
> Is this no
>> longer the case?
>It wasn't the case when I was in phys. ed. (L. 15 years ago). I don't
>see any reason girls should be able to opt out.
I don't think the automatic "menstruating therefore unfit" concept, which
is probably what--um--grandfathered the excuse in, has merit, but I do
think that I wasn't alone in having menstruation come sometimes with
symptoms that meant I would be poorly able to defend myself against savage
goalies or vicious softballs. I was just as happy to be coming of age
after the era when "they" were insisting cramps were all in our heads
(there was a very funny Nicole Hollander cartoon about that).
>And as far as synchronizing periods goes, it just so happens that it
>always appeared that when I was living in the same dwelling as my mother
>and sister, our bathroom garbage was always full at the same time every
>month.
Cecil Adams reported that one theory involved individual women's serving
as "menstrual pacesetters." I always wondered if competitive people would
consider it a blow if they discovered that they were merely menstrual
followers...
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Lee Rudolph
>H Gilmer wrote:
>>
>> p.s. AFU thread tie-in: notice singular "they" used automatically
>> with "someone" even in a sex-specific context; I wouldn't even have
>> noticed it except for the recent discussions.
>
>Can't fool me, Hank. You weren't being hip and progressive; you were
>being sloppy.
No, you're thinking of Bailey at the Ob-Gyn.
Lee "*all* contexts are sex-specific" Rudolph
rcr...@my-dejanews.com
bon...@full-moon.com wrote:
> I remember reading about a study a few years ago which looked at the
> menstrual cycle in industrial vs. pre-industrial societies. They found that
> in pre-industrial societies, where people do not have access to bright
> artificial lights after the sun goes down, puberty starts later in girls, and
> the menstrual cycle is more regular than in industrialized societies.
The difference in the environment between an industrial and pre-industrial
society is vastly greater than the amount of nighttime light exposure.
Pollutants, diets, education, hygeine, medical care, etc... Beyond trying to
endorse a preconceived notion, there's no logic in jumping straight to
artificial illumination as the cause of early puberty. It's bad science.
Good science would first do research into some of the biggest and most
obvious differences between the two societies, and only then, once the
comparisons were catalogued, propose experiments. If they fail to turn up
any correlations, *then* one could reach for things that aren't obvious -
like lunar illumination.
(I would suspect biochemical and nutritional factors that alter the
development of the female child. Maybe good hygeine and modern health care
removes puberty-delaying stresses from the body. Perhaps the high fat
content of an industrialized diet signals the body that it can prepare for
breeding earlier.
Or, scariest of all, maybe all of the estrogen analogues we pump into the
environment distort the developmental sequence. These would be good ideas
around which to propose experiments or field work.)
Tim Yorath
how it might screw the moon up, and wanted to link this from sci.astro
to it. The mind ro boggle at women trying to synch with Phobos and
Deimos. And we thought PMT was bad now.....
P.S. to all who may think this is in bad taste, I apologise, it is meant
but in jest.......
Tim
Athena Andreadis, Ph.D.: "Mars Needs Women!"
Biological and Cultural Colonization in Science, Fiction and Fact
Mars is all the rage today, between Zubrin's "Mars Direct" plan, the
efforts to determine if there's underground water and hence life, and
the
unavoidable question of whether we could or should settle there.
Dr. Andreadis will tackle the Mars questions from an "outsider" position
(not as an
American, an engineer, or a man, though still as a scientist and in
favor
of space exploration). She will touch upon the following topics:
1. What's the importance of finding life on Mars? If there's still
life
on Mars, even of the most primitive kind, are we justified in displacing
it
or contaminating it with our own genomes?
2. Should we terraform Mars to suit our needs? Is this a prerogative
of
the human spirit, or are we reenacting a space version of Manifest
Destiny?
3. Who gets to go and, more importantly, who gets to stay there
long-term?
And what concessions will the settlers have to make to accommodate
themselves to their new home?
Athena Andreadis is an Assistant Professor in Neurology at the Eunice
Kennedy
Shriver Center, Harvard Medical School
bon...@full-moon.com wrote:
>
> > > As for the lunar cycle affecting the fertility cycle; poissibly you might
> > > like to read the science --
> > The articles you list do not offer scientific evidence establishing that the
> > moon affects menstrual cycles. Did you actually read this stuff? Except for
> > "Marija Gimbutas, goddess and god of old Europe, 7000 to 3500 BC", that is...
> > hd
>
> I remember reading about a study a few years ago which looked at the
> menstrual cycle in industrial vs. pre-industrial societies. They found that
> in pre-industrial societies, where people do not have access to bright
> artificial lights after the sun goes down, puberty starts later in girls, and
> the menstrual cycle is more regular than in industrialized societies. Perhaps
> there is a scientific basis for suggesting that the cycle of the moon (and
> the increase and decrease of light that the moon is reflecting could be
> related to the length of women's menstrual cycles -- has anyone seen
> any other research about the light/menstrual relationship?
>
> Of course, there are other factors that do affect women's menstrual
> cycles; recent research has indicated that not only do women who
> are living together for long periods of time tend to synchronize, so that
> they menstruate all at the same time, but they've also found that women
> who live with a man tend to have more regular periods. The various
> studies of this phenomenon that I've read about suggest that
> pheromones are responsible for these changes in the menstrual cycle.
>
> Bon Johnston
> bon...@full-moon.com
> http://www.sacredsexuality.net/
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> Win a Free Tarot Reading!
> http://tarot.tsx.org/
> ------------------------------------------------
>
Bailey Cameron
"Chris W." wrote:
> Bailey Cameron wrote:
> > When I was in high school (5 years ago) girls were allowed to elect out of gym
> > classes and sports practices when they were having their periods.
> Why on earth would that be?
Notice I said "elect out" as in a choice, not "forced to sit and watch everyone
else have fun because we were unclean..."
Probably because they didn't want girls to have to shower if they were
uncomfortable with it. It made sense to me at the time. We had only been having
periods for a year or two, some of us, at that time. We weren't necessarily used
to it just yet.
> Is this no
> > longer the case?
>
> It wasn't the case when I was in phys. ed. (L. 15 years ago). I don't
> see any reason girls should be able to opt out. I still am very
> physically active, and swim, bike, and hike even during that time of the
> month. However, I did figure in Jr. High that my (female!) teachers
> could be more forgiving when telling you what gymnastic feat you must
> perform to earn an passing grade. I carry a very personal and
> embarrassing memory of being told I must perform a two minute (inverted)
> Teddy Bear stand (with the whole class watching) to pass a test.
> Certainly I didn't to carry that mental anguish through life with me.
Well, I don't know what a Teddy Bear stand is, but it sounds kinky. I'm not that
physically active of a person, and certainly being active while I've got cramps
that a double dose of Aleve can't get rid of is not my idea of fun. And you do
your physical activity by choice, and if you're having a really bad day you can
say, "No thanks," whereas gym class is compulsory.
PMS and MS are worse for some of us than others. I get debilitating migraines for
2 days before and after each period. I get cramps the first day that sometimes
double me over. Not to mention the fact that I retain water, get irritable, feel
like crap, and am generally cranky. And this is AFTER a year of being on the pill
to control my symptoms.
You are truly blessed.
> And as far as synchronizing periods goes, it just so happens that it
> always appeared that when I was living in the same dwelling as my mother
> and sister, our bathroom garbage was always full at the same time every
> month.
Funny how our bodies can be so different and so similar all at once, isn't it?
Bailey
David Wright
>(I would suspect biochemical and nutritional factors that alter the
>development of the female child. Maybe good hygeine and modern health care
>removes puberty-delaying stresses from the body. Perhaps the high fat
>content of an industrialized diet signals the body that it can prepare for
>breeding earlier.
Weight is a factor. I recall reading that once a girl reaches 90-100
lbs, menarche is not far off. The fattening of western society plays
a role here.
-- David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"Few things give a greater feeling of security than a full gas tank."
kim...@aol.com
>>classes and sports practices when they were having their periods.
>
>Why on earth would that be?
get through it with only the "bleeding". Others get migrane headaches,
severe cramping, etc. Birth control pills can help, but many parents are
not inclined to have their 13-year-old daughter start on them. Also, back
in the old days "feminine products" were somewhat less discrete and some
of the rules regarding this may date back to those times.
-- Kim
Chris W.
>
> Well, I don't know what a Teddy Bear stand is, but it sounds kinky. I'm not that
> physically active of a person, and certainly being active while I've got cramps
> that a double dose of Aleve can't get rid of is not my idea of fun.
I find that vodka and orange juice is the only thing that works for me
when it's too much for the majic bloo pills.[1]
And you do
> your physical activity by choice, and if you're having a really bad day you can
> say, "No thanks," whereas gym class is compulsory.
>
> PMS and MS are worse for some of us than others. I get debilitating migraines for
> 2 days before and after each period. I get cramps the first day that sometimes
> double me over. Not to mention the fact that I retain water, get irritable, feel
> like crap, and am generally cranky. And this is AFTER a year of being on the pill
> to control my symptoms.
Then I would have stayed home from school altogether. It was pretty
hard to just pay attention in Biology class with those kind of symptoms.
>
> You are truly blessed.
I am???? I won't bore the group with details as it's off topic, but I
really don't think I'm any luckier than you as far as the reproductive
system goes. You can email me if you want to compare notes.
[1] Naproxen Sodium now available over the counter as Aleve. Used to be
an expensive prescription sold as Anaprox.
Chris "lucky is when you can get turned on by a doctor's exam" Webb
Chris W.
Yabbut why go to school at all if you have numbing headaches and
excruciating cramps? I would have stayed at home altogether rather than
risk doing sloppy work at school. That would be like going to work when
you're sick but electing to not do your job while you're there, IMO.
Any school that still has a policy that girls may opt out of PE class if
they are menstruating is perpetuating the myth (urban legend?) that
women are helpless sacks of shit that can never accomplish anything
worthwhile while having their periods. Even though occasionally this
may by true, it is anti progressive to be teaching impressionable
teenagers that menstruation is a handicap that makes you less capable of
every day tasks.
Chris Webb
Deborah Stevenson
>Yabbut why go to school at all if you have numbing headaches and
>excruciating cramps?
Speaking for myself, I didn't have headaches, I just had cramps. They
were not too much trouble if I sat down. Usually, outside of P.E., I sat
down.
> I would have stayed at home altogether rather than
>risk doing sloppy work at school.
My work seemed to be reasonably good, and teachers were perfectly happy to
help with any material that presented a problem whether I'd had difficulty
with understanding it or simply missed it. I had good teachers. And if I
wasn't in school, they'd call home and insist on speaking not to me but my
terminally ill mother, which would result in terrific upset.
>That would be like going to work when
>you're sick but electing to not do your job while you're there, IMO.
Well, let's expand it to that, then. At my work, we've had all manner of
occasions where somebody in the office is impaired from full functioning
for one reason or another but is still doing necessary work and is
therefore worth having in the office. If an assistant's arthritis is
bothering her, she can move the box-shifting to another day. If the boss'
sinus medication or menstrual cramps are likely to interfere with fine
line-editing, then it can be a day to sort books instead.
I don't think menstruation was being dazzlingly singled out for honors in
school, and it's not at my office. Somebody with a sprained ankle or a
problematic pregnancy might be perfectly capable of attending class but
impaired when it comes to running a mile. I don't actually think it does
make sense for people in that position to stay home entirely, any more
than it makes sense for a kid with a cold sore to stay out of school
entirely because he can't play his trumpet in band.
>Any school that still has a policy that girls may opt out of PE class if
>they are menstruating is perpetuating the myth (urban legend?) that
>women are helpless sacks of shit that can never accomplish anything
>worthwhile while having their periods.
And any school that insists that everybody who comes to school has to
participate in full-bore regular PE regardless of their physical state is
more interested in false homogeneousness than genuine physical education.
>Even though occasionally this
>may by true, it is anti progressive to be teaching impressionable
>teenagers that menstruation is a handicap that makes you less capable of
>every day tasks.
While I think you and I are in agreement about automatic assumptions, I'm
troubled by your sentence's implication that something true shouldn't be
taught because it's anti progressive.
My guess is that you're trying to avoid the automatic implication of
menstruation as weakness, but I think you're falling into the opposite
trap of requiring that nobody suffer from weakness during menstruation.
I'd prefer to emphasize the diversity of physical experience myself, which
would, in a perfect world, allow girls to understand that there's no wrong
way to menstruate, and that while there's nothing about the process that
requires women to treat themselves delicately, there's nothing freakish
about individual responses that vary from energetic excess to physical
distress.
The problem, of course, is the lure of getting out of PE by claiming the
second--if you reward the false claim, you're cultivating the very myth
of across-the-board incapacitation that I too deplore. But that's a
problem with the teaching of PE, not the treatment of menstruation: good
PE teachers see it as more than just running around anyway, so if
you're not capable of moving your butt you could still move your brain in
ways relevant to the topic, and getting out of physical exertion doesn't
translate to getting out of PE or getting out of work. Plenty of
physically educational topics (nutrition and sports history spring to
mind) can be profitable study, and there are plenty of books on the topic
for the relevant age group. I've heard of gym teachers with tidy little
libraries, which seems an eminently sensible approach to me.
If we're talking people who aren't feeling well enough even to do
research, then yes, they probably ought not to be in school.
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Lizz Holmans
>
>Yabbut why go to school at all if you have numbing headaches and
>risk doing sloppy work at school. That would be like going to work when
>you're sick but electing to not do your job while you're there, IMO.
>they are menstruating is perpetuating the myth (urban legend?) that
>women are helpless sacks of shit that can never accomplish anything
>may by true, it is anti progressive to be teaching impressionable
>teenagers that menstruation is a handicap that makes you less capable of
>every day tasks.
When I wur a wee lass, in high school (class of '70') we were only
allowed to opt of swimming. This was in consideration not only to
ourselves, but for our classmates who might not want to swim in red-
tinged water (tampons not being as good as they are now).
Menstruation was not considered a good reason for missing school, either
at my school or at my home (Grandma would never have bought it.) There
used to be an underground trade in aspirin and Midol; the most you could
do was go to the school nurse and lie down for a spell.
Of course, this was before PMS was invented. If we had cramps,
headaches, got moody, or retained water, the response was usually a
shrug and a nice cup of tea. Believe it or don't, the discovery that PMS
could actually be *real* was a great liberation for our generation of
women. At last we were being told we were *not* crazy for not feeling
top-form five days out of the month. But even after PMS was recognised
as a real syndrome, it was still no excuse for not doing the best you
could do. It was just an explanation of certain physical symptoms, not
an excuse to get out of anything.
As I've mentioned before, while I've had a hysterectomy, I still have
ovaries. I still get PMS with occasional cyclical migraine headaches.
But I *don't* miss having periods.
Lizz 'full stop' Holmans
--
Visit http://www.urbanlegends.com
Madeleine Page
[snip details of Bailey Cameron's menstrual difficulties and her belief
that Chris is "blessed" in comparison with her]
: I won't bore the group with details as it's off topic, but I
: really don't think I'm any luckier than you as far as the reproductive
: system goes. You can email me if you want to compare notes.
afu thanks you for your discretion. Perhaps, Bailey, you could strive to
emulate Chris in this.
Madeleine "a boundary is a lovesome thing, god wot" Page
TMOliver
last few posts and dispatch them to my female cuz. I'm sure they would
be interesting reading for her between aerial tanker hops out over the
Adriatic (in those moments when she's not carrying out the duties of CO
of her unit, catching 40, or briefing for the next hop).
If nothing else, following this long thread ought to have reemphasized
the fact that much of the old 'sexism" is alive and well (and cultivated
in some unsuspected corners).
"That's alright, Colonel. After Joe gets back from dropping CBUs on the
Serb Border Police, he can fly Sarah's napalm hop over Prziza. I'm sure
she'll be as good as new tomorrow. Well, next week for sure."
--
TMOliver, el pelon sinverguenza
From a small observatory overlooking McLennan Crossing
- VESPER ADEST IUVENES CONSURGITE -
Catullus
kim...@aol.com
>excruciating cramps? I would have stayed at home altogether rather than
>risk doing sloppy work at school. That would be like going to work when
>you're sick but electing to not do your job while you're there, IMO.
another to be asked to run around and be physically active. You don't
need to be able to do a 500 yard dash to be able to sit there are
quietly listen to the teacher. You've never gone to work when you
aren't feeling ready to run a marathon? We are talking, for *some*
young women, about 3-5 days a month EVERY month.
>Any school that still has a policy that girls may opt out of PE class if
>they are menstruating is perpetuating the myth (urban legend?) that
>women are helpless sacks of shit that can never accomplish anything
>worthwhile while having their periods. Even though occasionally this
>may by true, it is anti progressive to be teaching impressionable
>teenagers that menstruation is a handicap that makes you less capable of
>every day tasks.
women negatively. Actually, they ARE saying you can accomplish
something worthwhile (your education) while menstruating ... just that
silliness like dancing around to "Chickenfat" might not be such a good
idea. "It's all in your head" when there is actual physical distress
is supposed to be more progressive?
-- Kim
kim...@aol.com
>last few posts and dispatch them to my female cuz. I'm sure they would
>be interesting reading for her between aerial tanker hops out over the
>Adriatic (in those moments when she's not carrying out the duties of CO
>of her unit, catching 40, or briefing for the next hop).
say *most*, function completely normally. Other then the inconvenience
I barely noticed until my body decided to start gearing up for menopause.
Since then, Motrin has become a good friend.
-- Kim
Chris W.
>
> >Yabbut why go to school at all if you have numbing headaches and
> >excruciating cramps? I would have stayed at home altogether rather than
> >risk doing sloppy work at school. That would be like going to work when
> >you're sick but electing to not do your job while you're there, IMO.
>
> Well, it's a lot different being asked to sit at your desk and quite
> another to be asked to run around and be physically active. You don't
> need to be able to do a 500 yard dash to be able to sit there are
> quietly listen to the teacher. You've never gone to work when you
> aren't feeling ready to run a marathon? We are talking, for *some*
> young women, about 3-5 days a month EVERY month.
Looking at some of the responses to my post, I am afraid I have not made
myself exactly clear. What I find sexist and counter productive is that
girls in some schools are being told they may opt out of PE if they are
menstruating. This in opposition to opting out if they have cramps, or
have a headache, or whatever that really does impede physical activity.
It sounds to me like the schools in question are treating menstruation
as a symptom that makes girls unable to do things, when the *real*
symptoms such as nausea, PMS, abdominal pains or headaches aren't
actually being addressed. I would never have asked my PE teacher to let
me out of class because I had my period. That was _not_ an allowable
excuse. I might, however, have asked her to be lenient on me, or even
asked to not have to suit up at all if I wasn't feeling well. The same
goes for the work environment in the adult world. But to be honest,
usually physical activity can help relieve some of the symptoms involved
if they are not severe.
> It's also counterproductive to pretend that it *doesn't* effect some
> women negatively. Actually, they ARE saying you can accomplish
> something worthwhile (your education) while menstruating ... just that
> silliness like dancing around to "Chickenfat" might not be such a good
> idea. "It's all in your head" when there is actual physical distress
> is supposed to be more progressive?
Please read my paragraph above.
Chris Webb
kim...@aol.com
>> >excruciating cramps? I would have stayed at home altogether rather than
>> >risk doing sloppy work at school. That would be like going to work when
>> >you're sick but electing to not do your job while you're there, IMO.
>> Well, it's a lot different being asked to sit at your desk and quite
>> another to be asked to run around and be physically active. You don't
>> need to be able to do a 500 yard dash to be able to sit there are
>> quietly listen to the teacher. You've never gone to work when you
>> aren't feeling ready to run a marathon? We are talking, for *some*
>> young women, about 3-5 days a month EVERY month.
>Looking at some of the responses to my post, I am afraid I have not made
>myself exactly clear. What I find sexist and counter productive is that
>girls in some schools are being told they may opt out of PE if they are
>menstruating. This in opposition to opting out if they have cramps, or
>have a headache, or whatever that really does impede physical activity.
then to give a laundry-list of acceptable "symptoms". Those of us who
have had to leave school with a sweater or jacket tied around our waist
know that there are occasionally OTHER reasons why opting out might be a
good idea ... especially the way protection worked or failed to work
not all that long ago.
-- Kim
TMOliver
this modern age "liberated" or representative thereof) to date that
women who (a) experience any debilitating "symptoms" connected with
menstruation and/or (b) are debilitated or even subject to potential
embarassment by the occurrence of menstruation (two relatively
all-encompassing general categories), should not enlist in or accept
commissions in the Armed Forces of the U.S.(leaving not many to fill the
equal ranks) , because, clearly and without equivocation, their sporadic
or regular disability will (a) cause additional duties as their
temporary replacements to have to be assumed by male troops (unable to
claim such disability) and/or (b) cause times to occur when because of
the temporary disability of female personnel with special training or
qualification the military mission may not be carried out (the dreaded,
"Send eveyone to the bomb shelters, Colonel, the enemy bombers will get
through because all the fighter pilots are down with the Curse!"
syndrome).
The whole matter of "opting out" or "being excused" on the account of
"differential enablement" caused a regularly reoccurring condition forms
an absolute denial of the entire battle for "equality of the sexes". My
four sisters and (thanks to my wife) two daughters have spent much of
their lives learning to compensate for and counter the effects of a
normal condition which some here take as an "excuse for the avoidance of
duty", not the optimum course in military or corporate life (but
apparently tacitly accepted in the academic world, a venue which too
often holds that words speak louder than actions).
Ahhhh, just pulling your chains, fed up women the mewlings of too many
politicians. At least the congregation here gathered seems sensible and
less axe-grinding than some other crowds.
Deborah Stevenson
>Am I to assume from much of the dialogue (posts by women, presumably in
>this modern age "liberated" or representative thereof) to date that
>women who (a) experience any debilitating "symptoms" connected with
>menstruation and/or (b) are debilitated or even subject to potential
>embarassment by the occurrence of menstruation (two relatively
>all-encompassing general categories), should not enlist in or accept
>commissions in the Armed Forces of the U.S.(leaving not many to fill the
>equal ranks) , because, clearly and without equivocation, their sporadic
>or regular disability will (a) cause additional duties as their
>temporary replacements to have to be assumed by male troops (unable to
>claim such disability) and/or (b) cause times to occur when because of
>the temporary disability of female personnel with special training or
>qualification the military mission may not be carried out (the dreaded,
>"Send eveyone to the bomb shelters, Colonel, the enemy bombers will get
>through because all the fighter pilots are down with the Curse!"
>syndrome).
That, as far as I'm concerned, is the military's call. As I've said,
plenty of women don't have any problems or don't suffer problems that
can't be dealt with by over-the-counter medications--and I presume that
sports injuries, headaches, etc. are common enough across the board that
"I take ibuprofen sometimes" doesn't render one 4F. I also think taking
immature adolescents is a bad idea for either sex, and I believe that
physical maturity often diminishes attendant distress. So sticking to
over-18s may well take care of much of the problem, and defending the free
world by sending twelve-year-old girls out to play sideline soccer
probably wasn't that viable a plan anyway. I don't have any problem with
different standards for military inclusion and preteen relay races.
Part of the problem, as far as I can tell, is that menstrual discomfort
isn't all that well understood. I'm therefore not in a position to make
an argument about its being medically equivalent to a male-only disorder
such as phimosis or orchitis. Certainly some if not all women's menstrual
pain has been ascribed to endometriosis, which I believe often goes
undiagnosed for quite awhile, so it's possible that there is a genuine
dysfunction underlying some people's impairment here. However, if I were
the military I wouldn't worry much about why; if you can't work up to the
standard, we won't take you, whether it's endometriosis, hypochondria, bum
knees, or asthma. If you can, then fine.
>The whole matter of "opting out" or "being excused" on the account of
>"differential enablement" caused a regularly reoccurring condition forms
>an absolute denial of the entire battle for "equality of the sexes".
Only if "equality" constitutes "identicality." The problem here, as far
as I'm concerned, that it's accepting the male model as the norm and then
castigating deviation from that model as "opting out." That may well be
how the military works, I dunno, but that doesn't mean I have to find the
military's policy an ideological pinnacle or military inclusion in its
own terms the ultimate goal of feminism.
My
>four sisters and (thanks to my wife) two daughters have spent much of
>their lives learning to compensate for and counter the effects of a
>normal condition which some here take as an "excuse for the avoidance of
>duty", not the optimum course in military or corporate life (but
>apparently tacitly accepted in the academic world, a venue which too
>often holds that words speak louder than actions).
Could be. On the other hand, since becoming an adult I am
rarely impaired by menstrual discomfort (though I urge women to place the
tampon string carefully before riding a horse...); ibuprofen pretty much
deals with the matter. And I never had an embarrassment factor. I
imagine my suffering is probably less than all those generals with
hemorrhoids, so if the military doesn't consider them impaired they should
have no problem with me. And I would consider the CEO a whole different
ballgame--aren't there any who suffer from migraines or cluster headaches,
or who may be on dialysis or in chemotherapy, or who suffers from
seizure disorders that medication doesn't entirely control?
It seems to me perhaps that the history of this particular syndrome is
blinding people to ways in which similar occasional impairments have been
dealt with. The fact that it happens only to one sex and it happens in
that sex's reproductive organs seems to weigh more than it ought to in
considerations of how to deal with it. I'm completely ignorant of the
military policies (my osteoarthritis would weed me out long before my
cramps, I imagine), but I imagine that some kinds of impairment are
preclusive and some kinds aren't. Again, their call as to how impaired
menstruation has to make one before you're out of the game.
I realize that not all of the military is the U.S. Marines, but I thought
there was still an idea of "the few, the proud," not "give me your tired,
your poor, your huddled masses," etc. In other words, not everybody makes
the cut on either side of the gender aisle, not to mention the aisle
between. It's *not* supposed to be just like other kinds of life, and
they *do* have the prerogative to insist on higher standards of physical
ability than other areas of life. And I do think that what grownups do in
the military is perhaps not as close to what kids do in gym class as this
line of inquiry might suggest. I suspect there have been some excellent
male soldiers who didn't exactly burn up the playing fields at Eton
either.
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
David Lentz
Deborah Stevenson wrote:
<snip>
> That, as far as I'm concerned, is the military's call. As I've said,
> plenty of women don't have any problems or don't suffer problems that
> can't be dealt with by over-the-counter medications--and I presume that
> sports injuries, headaches, etc. are common enough across the board that
> "I take ibuprofen sometimes" doesn't render one 4F. I also think taking
> immature adolescents is a bad idea for either sex, and I believe that
> physical maturity often diminishes attendant distress. So sticking to
> over-18s may well take care of much of the problem, and defending the free
> world by sending twelve-year-old girls out to play sideline soccer
> probably wasn't that viable a plan anyway. I don't have any problem with
> different standards for military inclusion and preteen relay races.
If, military, and women, and policy then political Very
political.
David
Bailey Cameron
TMOliver, who apparently doesn't know the differnce between P.E. classes
in high school and the Armed Forces, wrote:
> Am I to assume from much of the dialogue (posts by women, presumably in
> this modern age "liberated" or representative thereof) to date that
> women who (a) experience any debilitating "symptoms" connected with
> menstruation and/or (b) are debilitated or even subject to potential
> embarassment by the occurrence of menstruation (two relatively
> all-encompassing general categories), should not enlist in or accept
> commissions in the Armed Forces of the U.S.(leaving not many to fill the
> equal ranks) , because, clearly and without equivocation, their sporadic
> or regular disability will (a) cause additional duties as their
> temporary replacements to have to be assumed by male troops (unable to
> claim such disability) and/or (b) cause times to occur when because of
> the temporary disability of female personnel with special training or
> qualification the military mission may not be carried out (the dreaded,
> "Send eveyone to the bomb shelters, Colonel, the enemy bombers will get
> through because all the fighter pilots are down with the Curse!"
> syndrome).
Being a sufferer of debilitating migraines, among other things, I most
certainly will never join the military. I can not imagine someone
blowing a whistle at me at 5 am and telling me to march. My head would
explode, whether I had a migraine or not. I will add that to the ever
growing list of reasons "Why the Army is NOT for Bailey". Thank you, I
hadn't thought of that one before. But that is a reason for ME, and me
alone. I am NOT qualified to speak for the other 3 billion women in the
world. Haven't you ever heard the word "choice"?
Let me clear a few things up first. I have never ever said that *ALL*
girls on their period should be taken into a menstruation hut during
their gym class and forced to sit alone and think about how unclean they
are or something equally archaic. I said that girls in my school were
given the choice to opt out, if they felt that it was necessary.
Kids who had headaches for other reasons (boys and girls) were allowed
to opt out of most activities. Kids who had broken arms (boys and
girls) were allowed to opt out of certain activities (like baseball, but
not running). It wasn't that EVERYONE had to play except the girls who
had their periods, it was that it was possible to say, "No, thanks," if
you needed to.
Furthermore, if you did say, "I'm having my period, I don't want to
play," then all the other kids would know, which is hugely embarassing
in Jr. High and High School, if you remember. You would be teased and
given a hard time for the rest of the week. Most of us girls only opted
out of gym if we REALLY needed to.
Back to the point, women CHOOSE whether or not to go into the military,
fully knowing what will be expected of them, and presumably ready to
comply. I did not CHOOSE to have to take two years of P.E. to graduate
from high school. Drawing a parallel in this circumstance is absolutely ridiculous.
> The whole matter of "opting out" or "being excused" on the account of
> "differential enablement" caused a regularly reoccurring condition forms
> an absolute denial of the entire battle for "equality of the sexes". My
> four sisters and (thanks to my wife) two daughters have spent much of
> their lives learning to compensate for and counter the effects of a
> normal condition which some here take as an "excuse for the avoidance of
> duty", not the optimum course in military or corporate life (but
> apparently tacitly accepted in the academic world, a venue which too
> often holds that words speak louder than actions).
No matter how many women are in your family, you have no idea what it's
like to be a woman, so don't EVEN go there. I have no idea what it's
like to be a man (thank God), and I don't make assumptions based on what
it *might* be like, or what the men I know *say* it's like. Most
likely, the women in your family have a genetic history of not "getting
it" as bad as I (or others) do. Or, maybe they do, and they aren't
telling you. I never would have said said, "Gee, Dad, I really have
major cramps and bloating today," and my dad is in the health care
field!!! Your daughters are probably no different, you're likely as
ignorant of what they go through as my dad was of what I went through.
Go home tonight and ask your daughter, "Honey, how's PMS for you?" and
see if she doesn't run screaming out of the room...
Saying they've spent "much of their lives" proves that you don't know
what you're talking about. It didn't matter until I was almost 13
whether I was a boy or a girl. And I didn't have any "effects" to
"counter" until that time.
And one woman has already discussed the concessions made for women in
her "corporate life", and I've never had trouble calling off work for
migraines (hard to look at a computer all day when light makes you
nauseaous) in any job I've had.
> Ahhhh, just pulling your chains, fed up women the mewlings of too many
> politicians. At least the congregation here gathered seems sensible and
> less axe-grinding than some other crowds.
No, it sounds to me like you're just trying to start a fight.
I'm sorry, I know there are some really enlightened men out there who
are probably very mystified by and sympathetic to the whole enchillada
of being a woman. You do not appear to be one of them. On the whole,
saying that a man can understand what it's like to be a woman is like
saying that a person of one race can understand what it's like to be of
another. It's stupid. Saying that we (those of us who suffer PMS,
etc.) should just "toughen up and face it" is like telling someone who
is ill to just "toughen up and face it". The fact that it happens
predictably and on a schedule does not mean that it doesn't feel like
being ill. The fact that we go through it regularily does not mean that
it gets any easier.
Goddess, how I pray that for just **one day** all the men could be women
and all the women could be men. That would really be something.
I wonder if, at the end of the day, I would want to switch back.
Hmmmm...
Bailey "changing my name to Butch" Cameron
Brian Yeoh
> Deborah Stevenson wrote:
> > That, as far as I'm concerned, is the military's call. As I've said,
> > plenty of women don't have any problems or don't suffer problems that
> > can't be dealt with by over-the-counter medications--and I presume that
> > sports injuries, headaches, etc. are common enough across the board that
> > "I take ibuprofen sometimes" doesn't render one 4F. I also think taking
> > immature adolescents is a bad idea for either sex, and I believe that
> > physical maturity often diminishes attendant distress. So sticking to
> > over-18s may well take care of much of the problem, and defending the free
> > world by sending twelve-year-old girls out to play sideline soccer
> > probably wasn't that viable a plan anyway. I don't have any problem with
> > different standards for military inclusion and preteen relay races.
> If, military, and women, and policy then political Very
> political.
Me.Concur "Heartily"
USENET.Thread("Re:Synchronising Periods").Keywords("women","military") _
.Kill "DieDieDieDie"
Brian "*please*" Yeoh
Reduc to absurd
My matras of tenuous hope
She will Brook no more.
-- 21/03/1999
David and/or Jackie Laderoute
>Am I to assume from much of the dialogue (posts by women, presumably in
>this modern age "liberated" or representative thereof) to date that
>women who (a) experience any debilitating "symptoms" connected with
>menstruation and/or (b) are debilitated or even subject to potential
>embarassment by the occurrence of menstruation (two relatively
>all-encompassing general categories), should not enlist in or accept
>commissions in the Armed Forces of the U.S.(leaving not many to fill the
>equal ranks) , because, clearly and without equivocation, their sporadic
>or regular disability will (a) cause additional duties as their
>temporary replacements to have to be assumed by male troops (unable to
>claim such disability) and/or (b) cause times to occur when because of
>the temporary disability of female personnel with special training or
>qualification the military mission may not be carried out (the dreaded,
>"Send eveyone to the bomb shelters, Colonel, the enemy bombers will get
>through because all the fighter pilots are down with the Curse!"
>syndrome).
Are we limiting this discussion to the "Armed Forces of the US", or
would a Canadian opinion merit consideration?
Frankly, you've loaded this question. As written, my answer to Part One
would have to be "yes" (with qualification). No one who experiences
"debilitating" symptoms should consider a career in the military -
whether those symptoms are caused by menstruation or any one of a number
of cyclic ailments. Epilepsy, migraine, bipolar disorder, arthritis,
cluster headaches, inflammatory bowel disease, lupus - even ingrown
toenails - may well preclude the military as a career choice.
For those who have already made the choice at the onset of the
condition, an assessment of the impact of the disability on both the
member and his/her fellows would need to be done. Should the disability
be onerous enough, a medical release should and would be considered.
As regards Part Two - "subject to potential embarrassment by the
occurrence of menstruation" - that's not even remotely in the same ball
park. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you
included the category for the sake of hyperbole, as I cannot imagine
that you would seriously suggest this. The potential for embarrassment
as the result of bodily functions exists in all of us - urinary
incontinence, diarrhoea, even excess gas... perhaps we should all just
stay home in case we embarrass ourselves. Furrfu.
>The whole matter of "opting out" or "being excused" on the account of
>"differential enablement" caused a regularly reoccurring condition forms
>an absolute denial of the entire battle for "equality of the sexes".
I beg to differ. Given the wide range of conditions that would warrant
"opting out", singling out the small percentage that are "female only"
(and even smaller percentage that would warrant such action) is
disingenuous.
>My four sisters and (thanks to my wife) two daughters have spent much of
>their lives learning to compensate for and counter the effects of a
>normal condition which some here take as an "excuse for the avoidance of
>duty", not the optimum course in military or corporate life (but
>apparently tacitly accepted in the academic world, a venue which too
>often holds that words speak louder than actions).
A male friend of mine suffers from inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). As
a result of his condition, he has had to "opt out" on numerous
occasions. Luckily, his employer has determined that there is enough
value in what he does accomplish to more than compensate for those times
when his condition renders him ineffective. An acquaintance in the
military has broken several bones while parachuting and has had to be
exempt drill and training during his recuperations...
While perhaps it can be argued that it would be preferable that all
employees be completely "fighting fit" at all times, it simply isn't
possible - either in the military or corporate worlds.
>Ahhhh, just pulling your chains, fed up women the mewlings of too many
>politicians. At least the congregation here gathered seems sensible and
>less axe-grinding than some other crowds.
Simply put, chain-pulling accomplishes little.
For what it's worth, I am a commissioned officer (Captain) who has
soldiered through many menstrual periods, three pregnancies and three
lactations. I took a week's maternity leave with the first one, didn't
even apply with the others. I was automatically exempt drill and
training during the latter stages of my pregnancies, but was only
ordered not to train once (first pregnancy, seven and a half months
along) - but that's me. I have the good fortune not to suffer anything
more than annoyance during my menstruation, and have been rudely healthy
throughout my pregnancies. I have the constitution of a horse. I also
have male colleagues who have had far more exempts than I have, and far
more medical problems. Proves exactly nothing.
I've had soldiers with perfect attendance who have been a waste of the
uniform, and those with transient medical conditions who have been
invaluable. I've also moved to remove soldiers of both sexes who have
been guilty of "opting out" too often. Honestly, I don't care whether
the root cause is physical or simply an attitude problem - my concern is
their functionality and utility in the maintenance of my aim. Nothing
more equal than that.
Jackie "of course, we'll have to see how I do with menopause" Laderoute