Frightening
CB
>>Oh my, this really is so frightening to me. I notice that there are many
replies to your mail. I haven't read them yet to see what others understand
this all to mean.
It's in this bit right here:
>first and foremost, the master-disciple relationship is about practical
action. It is abut putting the law first, and the master first, and taking
action accordingly. Too often we intend to intellectualise this concept.>
Early on in my practice I was criticized by my seniors for being too
intellectual. Me? Intellectual? After a time I came to understand that the
"intellectual" they meant was not about serious study, developing one's
intellegence and applying it.
Oh no. This was all about "free will." Having a working brain and being
willful in it's use. The ongoing message has not changed: Don't think for
yourself, we're doing all that for you." As a double Gemini, there is NO way
I can turn off the inner gears. LOL! Being willful in using your brain, of
this serious offense I am very guilty as charged your Honor.
The end result being this:
BAILIFF! QUICK! THE BIG HAMMER PLEASE!!! WE HAVE AN UNSIGHTLY NAIL HERE!
WACK! WHOCK! WHACK! There, that'll learn you, you little parasite!
You see, for years my understanding of the correct attitude for a true
deciple was all backwards! I thought. I questioned. I refused to obey. Worst
yet, I refused to be held accountable for the sins of the organization! I
expected them to sort out the SGI house! After all, the org exists for my
happiness and to serve me, humble little member. Now that just won't do Di!
No, no, no, no, no! It's YOUR karma girl. Go chant 10 million daimoku and
call me when you have a acquired the heart and mind of Sensei! Duh. I just
"didn't get it."
>But SGI President Ikeda tells us quite plainly that he will do his utmost
for kosen rufu, while we do our utmost for kosen rufu in our own area. That
is the oneness of master and disciple. The decisiveness is not what the
master thinks - for he is thinking of his disciples all the time >
So was Jim Jones, another very thoughtful man who loved his members too.
Heck, he loved them so much he made them a family! Grape or cherry, m'am?
Move along, move along now.
It really scares me to know that there are many people out there who have so
little confidence and belief in their own ability to determine what is and
what is not, that they give over their will, their desire to think and
reason for themselves, to another. To do otherwise results in a pounding.
They're intellectual enough to know that much.
<<<<<<
Amazing. These very same people who are complaining about SGI
remain as members knowing that things will never change in SGI.
SGI is the same cult it was 30 years ago
"Dear Carmen, do you really think that sending spies to
the temple violates their rights somehow? Isn't it
the method of the spy to not get caught? To blend in?
If he creates a disruption, then he reveals himself."
Kathy Ruby
"Yes, I do pray every day for the Nichiren Shoshu temples in the United
States to close do to lack of support. I believe they are spreading a
deluded view of Buddhism in response to the devil king of the sixth heaven's
command."
Tom CUltican, SGI-USA
"Changing the subject doesn't work. Ikeda made a deal to not
establish SGI in China, in return the communists made an agreement not
to persecute SGI members. Considering the very limited room to
maneuver it was a diplomatic decision."
Chris Holte
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/look863.htm
"According to the organization's public-relations director, Yukimasa Fujiwara, it has an average
net annual income of over $8,500,000 -- tax-exempt as with all acknowledged religions"
LOOK Magazine
September 10, 1963
"Because We have the money, and Hokkeko does
not have EVEN A FRACTION of the money we have,
who do you think will win this battle between
the corrupt priesthood and SGI?"
Richard Hower, SGI-USA member
"Soka Gakkai is unmistakably a church militant in Japan geared for a determined march abroad.
It's significance to America and all nations cannot be ignored. Its target is world domination"
LOOK Magazine
September 10, 1963
"Recently, the Japan Times had reported that a 33-year-old an "avid follower of Soka
Gakkai," had shoved his four-year-old son into the path of an oncoming train, then
changed his mind about committing suicide. The child died of a fractured skull."
LOOK Magazine
September 10, 1963
"By the end of the interview, it was clear that Ikeda, whose word is absolute law to 10 million
unquestioning believers, was unflinchingly confident that Soka Gakkai will succeed in the total
conversion of Japan, and then the world."
LOOK Magazine
September 10, 1963
"To Dr. Yoshiro Tamura, associate professor of Toyo University, the "true nature" of
Soka Gakkai is "fanatic and dangerous." He says Soka Gakkai "makes politics
dependent upon religion as long as that religion is Soka Gakkai . . . and will eventually
act against freedom of religion."
LOOK Magazine
September 10, 1963
"William P Woodard of Tokyo's International Institute for the Study of Religions comments:
"Soka Gakkai does not respect the rights of others. It threatens reprisals to all who oppose
it. Followers are obliged to engage in forced conversion, and in doing so, they force
themselves into private homes and refuse to leave when asked. They disrupt public meetings
and threaten nonbelievers. Leaders encourage violence.
"Soka Gakkai has developed in such a sinister manner," Woodard contends, "that
most people in positions of public responsibility are afraid to take objective stands
against it. They are literally afraid; they never know what form reprisal will take. Its
insidious nature makes it a definite threat to a free, democratic society. It creates a
kind of private terrorism"
LOOK Magazine
September 10, 1963
Artie
> Amazing. These very same people who are complaining about SGI
> remain as members knowing that things will never change in SGI.
>
> SGI is the same cult it was 30 years ago
Craig,
If this is true, it leaves you the little problem of explaining how your High Priest was blind to
that fact, praising and supporting both Mr. Ikeda and the gakkai both before he assumed the High
Priesthood and for 10 years thereafter.
Artie
Cody
"Artie" <myo...@bellatlantic.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:3ADC2454...@bellatlantic.net...
The High Priest has explained this. It's simple: He made a mistake.
Cody
MarcInMD
Cody<<
It's like how Crusty the Clown on the Simpsons explains why he sold out to the
mob.
"They pulled up in front of my house with a dump truck full of cash . Hey !
What was I supposed to do !!! "
Cody
Priest is human and can make mistakes. Nothing more, nothing less.
Cody
"MarcInMD" <marc...@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:20010417084829...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
CB
>it leaves you the little problem of explaining how your High Priest was blind to
>that fact, praising and supporting both Mr. Ikeda and the gakkai both before he assumed the High
>Priesthood and for 10 years thereafter.
>Artie
>
Why is it that people outside of NST always try to insist that
our HP should be infallable, and when it is discovered that he
is not, they cry cry cry?
Get over it Artie. You guys are no more part of NST than SGI is.
C
dc
ago" was in 1971. At that time NSA had been growing by leaps and bounds, but
little did the sincere members know, at the top there was a hidden agenda.
Although at the level of districts and chapters, things were mostly pure and
based in Nichiren Shoshu. but we were already being ruled by the private
motives at the top of the pyramid. We were like sincere people doing
shakubuku and bringing people in to a meat grinder of animality. The
animality was not a part of the Buddhist practice, but it predominated our
lives. Even most of our Japanese top lay leaders in NSA were sincerely
trying to practice, but there was this insidious force coming down from no
one but Ikeda. He created a secretive and superstitous atmosphere behind
the scenes and was gradually leading and encouraging people to worship him.
The naive Japanese leaders surrounding him, were easily manipulated.
Underneath it all however, was a sincerity of the vast majority of members
and leaders trying to practice for Kosen Rufu. So the power of the Mystic
Law was there, that is why so many people appeared. The "cult" was not the
organization of true buddhism, it was the secret organization of people that
were being lead around by Ikeda. Clearly Ikeda was overwelmed by his own
popularity. Everyone's mind is subject to fluctuations and differing
thoughts. Ikeda had a cancer of arrogance growing in his brain. It would
erupt at dfferent times and he he would vacilate being praising Nichiren
Shoshu and hating it. He really began to believe he was the ultimate
buddha, that could do whatever he wished.
dc
guna
in accordance wit the Gosho and the wishes of Nittatsu Shonin, he gave Ikeda the
benefit of the doubt
in accordance with the Nirvana Sutra he didn't take any shit the next time Ikeda
transgressed
Artie
And Craig added:
> Why is it that people outside of NST always try to insist that
> our HP should be infallable, and when it is discovered that he
> is not, they cry cry cry?
>
> Get over it Artie. You guys are no more part of NST than SGI is.
>
Well, boys,
And where on the scale of bloopers might this one rate?
Let's see; as a result of this little faux pas, this little boo boo, Rev. Abe
-
- Forbid priests to criticize the Sokagakkai
- Punished the priests who insisted in (correctly, in retrospect) criticizing
the Sokagakkai
- Required overseas believers to join Sokagakkai, rather than belong solely to
the temple or another lay organization
- Forbade overseas, non-Gakkai believers to go on Tozan
- Reinstated Daisaku Ikeda as Sokoto
- Ordained numerous adult Sokagakkai members as Nichiren Shoshu priests
and the list goes on.
We could go over the definition of "mistake" - usually, a mistake is a single
instance - but, after a "mistake" like this, what does one do? Say "I made a
mistake"? "Sorry"?
imho, he's acted more like a hit and run driver. Damage? Ruined lives? Lost
faith? Just keep on driving. Who said I was a perfect driver?
What would the head of a Japanese corporation do if he had made a mistake of
this magnitude?
And for you, Craig, I haven't considered myself a member of your NST - the
organization - since Rev. Shiina (now there was another mistake) told me that
I was unwelcome in Myosetsuji temple unless I rejoined the Sokagakkai.
I do study with a priest trained by Nittatsu Shonin. He does not recognize his
excommunication as legitimate, and neither do I. We do study the traditional
teachings of Nichiren Shoshu, including the writings of past High Priests. As
far as I'm concerned, that's a lot better than being in today's NST.
Am I unhappy that my sect has been hijacked? Very. Do I cry, cry, cry? Hardly.
I just find it a little more than intellectually dishonest that those who have
managed to follow Rev. Abe's twisted path from protector of Ikeda to his
excommunicator can just go around casually saying that "SGI is the same cult
that it was 30 years ago", as if you've known it all along (not that SGI
existed 30 years ago, but that's besides the point). Either you've known it
all along, and Rev. Abe is somehow less perceptive than you (or me or the 200
priests he excommunicated or a host of others), or you, too, were fooled, in
which case, you can get off your self-righteous horse. Which was it?
btw, I also remember that the position taken by the NS folks on this board
around the time of the excommunication was that SG practiced correctly up
until the late '80s. The NS story has been through almost as many rewrites as
the Human Revolution.
That's all.
Artie
Cody
Get over it, Artie. Nichiren Shoshu isn't going to change for you. We
believe in Honin Myo, do you?
Cody
CB
Artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>I do study with a priest trained by Nittatsu Shonin. He does not recognize his
>excommunication as legitimate, and neither do I. We do study the traditional
>teachings of Nichiren Shoshu, including the writings of past High Priests. As
>far as I'm concerned, that's a lot better than being in today's NST.
>Am I unhappy that my sect has been hijacked? Very.
Well why don't you tell us who the HP "highjacked" the highpriesthood
FROM and maybe we can discuss it intelligently.
>Do I cry, cry, cry? Hardly.
>I just find it a little more than intellectually dishonest that those who have
>managed to follow Rev. Abe's twisted path from protector of Ikeda to his
>excommunicator can just go around casually saying that "SGI is the same cult
>that it was 30 years ago", as if you've known it all along (not that SGI
>existed 30 years ago, but that's besides the point). Either you've known it
>all along, and Rev. Abe is somehow less perceptive than you (or me or the 200
>priests he excommunicated or a host of others), or you, too, were fooled, in
>which case, you can get off your self-righteous horse. Which was it?
>btw, I also remember that the position taken by the NS folks on this board
>around the time of the excommunication was that SG practiced correctly up
>until the late '80s. The NS story has been through almost as many rewrites as
>the Human Revolution.
>That's all.
>Artie
You say you are happy that you no longer belong to NST
so why do you keep crying?
C
MarcInMD
the benefit of the doubt<<
Translation: They pulled up front with a dump truck full of cash.
"What's a person supposed to do ??? "
{Crusty the Clown}
Artie
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:18:25 GMT, Artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
> >CB wrote:
> >
> >> Amazing. These very same people who are complaining about SGI
> >> remain as members knowing that things will never change in SGI.
> >>
> >> SGI is the same cult it was 30 years ago
> >
> >Craig,
> >
> >If this is true, it leaves you the little problem of explaining how your High Priest was blind to
> >that fact, praising and supporting both Mr. Ikeda and the gakkai both before he assumed the High
> >Priesthood and for 10 years thereafter.
> >
> >Artie
>
> in accordance wit the Gosho and the wishes of Nittatsu Shonin, he gave Ikeda the
> benefit of the doubt
>
The sad thing is, you might actually believe this. On what basis do you say these things? Are you
actually trying to shift the responsibility for this "mistake" (as Sr. Cody calls it) from Rev. Abe to
Nittatsu Shonin?
>
> in accordance with the Nirvana Sutra he didn't take any shit the next time Ikeda
> transgressed
Do do you believe that Mr. Ikeda was on his best behavior for 8 or 9 years, or are you a member of the
Bratcher school, who maintains it's been SOS for the last 30?
Artie
CB
If you would just tell us who the HP "hijacked" the succession
from, we could have an intelligent debate. If you can't do that
then maybe you should consider that it's time to quit complaining
about Nichiren Shoshu. since you have chosen not to be a member
in the first place.
C
Artie
> Artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> >I do study with a priest trained by Nittatsu Shonin. He does not recognize his
> >excommunication as legitimate, and neither do I. We do study the traditional
> >teachings of Nichiren Shoshu, including the writings of past High Priests. As
> >far as I'm concerned, that's a lot better than being in today's NST.
> >Am I unhappy that my sect has been hijacked? Very.
>
> Well why don't you tell us who the HP "highjacked" the highpriesthood
> FROM and maybe we can discuss it intelligently.
>
Craig,
I don't know why people have such trouble with this. I did not say he "hijacked"
the High Priesthood from another legitimately designated High Priest. I said that
the sect had been "hijacked". It is the general belief of the Shoshinkai priests,
and one which I subscribe to as well, that Nittatsu Shonin died without naming a
successor. If you think that such a thing is impossible, you need only look back to
the 62nd High Priest, Nikkyo Shonin, who died in a fire at Taisekiji without having
named a successor. (You can check with your priest.) In support of Rev. Abe's claim
that he legitimately succeeded Nittatsu Shonin, we have only his word. In
contradiction, we have a set of bylaws and traditions that dictate such things as
the rank of priest from which the successor is to be chosen, the title accorded the
successor, and the actions taken by the retiring High Priest and his successor at
the times of designation and / or transfer, none of which were adhered to in Rev.
Abe's claimed succession. Further, we have his unwillingness to answer question
raised with regard to the legitimacy of that succession. The designation of a
successor was never intended to be a mystery to be kept until the death of a High
Priest; it was intended that succession be widely known so that there would be no
questions about it.
Now, can you respond intelligently?
>
> >Do I cry, cry, cry? Hardly.
> >I just find it a little more than intellectually dishonest that those who have
> >managed to follow Rev. Abe's twisted path from protector of Ikeda to his
> >excommunicator can just go around casually saying that "SGI is the same cult
> >that it was 30 years ago", as if you've known it all along (not that SGI
> >existed 30 years ago, but that's besides the point). Either you've known it
> >all along, and Rev. Abe is somehow less perceptive than you (or me or the 200
> >priests he excommunicated or a host of others), or you, too, were fooled, in
> >which case, you can get off your self-righteous horse. Which was it?
> >btw, I also remember that the position taken by the NS folks on this board
> >around the time of the excommunication was that SG practiced correctly up
> >until the late '80s. The NS story has been through almost as many rewrites as
> >the Human Revolution.
> >That's all.
> >Artie
>
> You say you are happy that you no longer belong to NST
> so why do you keep crying?
>
> C
Sorry Craig, I'm not crying. As someone who's apparently happy to be in NST and
glad to be out of the Sokagakkai, why do you post the same series of expose
articles again and again and again and again and again, pausing every so often to
post something that's actually about Nichiren Shoshu?
Now, I wish you'd answer the question. Have you believed, for the last 30 years,
that Sokagakkai was "the same old cult", or did you believe, for the period from,
say, 1979 to 1988, that it had transformed itself into an organization that
correctly practiced and taught the Daishonin's Buddhism, only to fall off the wagon
around 1989? Which was it? (Not "What do you think now?", "What did you think
then?")
Artie
CB
>Craig,
>
>I don't know why people have such trouble with this. I did not say he "hijacked"
>the High Priesthood from another legitimately designated High Priest. I said that
>the sect had been "hijacked". It is the general belief of the Shoshinkai priests,
>and one which I subscribe to as well, that Nittatsu Shonin died without naming a
>successor.
If this is true, then who do you think should have been HP?
Is there any other priest who has stood up and said that it should
have been him?
C
Artie
Get over it, Artie. Nichiren Shoshu isn't going to change for you. We
> believe in Honin Myo, do you?
>
> Cody
Sr. Cody,
I'd be crushed, except I didn't ask them to change for me. Just trying to point
out the hypocracy and spin when I see it.
What's this about Hon'in myo? Nichiren Daishonin is the True Buddha of Hon'in
myo, the true cause, the sower of the seed of Buddhahood. Shakyamuni was the
Buddha of Honga myo, who showed the true effect. Human beings of mappo are
without the original seed, and thus need to be seeded, so our practice is that
of Hon'in myo - to be in the state of cause. So I believe in that, yes. If you
think that hon'in myo is that "start fresh, every day is a new day" attitude
(from the Classic Comics book of NSA Buddhism), then you'd best have a talk with
your priest. Otherwise, you'll have to explain to me what you meant by your
question.
Artie
Artie
Craig,
I am not aware of any priest who stood up and said it should have been him, and I do
not have an opinion as to who should have succeeded Nittatsu Shonin. (There was a
priest who some expected to be designated Nittatsu Shonin's successor, but there is
not claim that he was actually designated. He is now deceased.)
The bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu do specify a method for selecting a High Priest in the
event that the current High Priest dies without naming a successor (and there is no
living retired High Priest). Based on his "spiritual rank", Rev. Abe would not have
been among those who would have participated in that decision making.
Artie
CB
Either lodge endless protests against a group you refuse to
have anything to do with, or move on.
C
Artie
> Well then, Artie, I guess you are stuck with 2 options
> Either lodge endless protests against a group you refuse to
> have anything to do with, or move on.
>
> C
Craig,
I moved on 20 years ago. If I wanted to lodge a protest, I wouldn't have done it by
writing on arbn. I'm just trying to put out information and context for those whose minds
are not closed. I hope you're among them.
Artie
P.S. You never did answer my question.
CB
>P.S. You never did answer my question.
No, Artie, I do not think the HP is infallable
and I think he is doing a fine job of protecting
the DaiGohonzon and the doctrines of NST
Hope that helps
Cody
I know about the True Cause and the True Effect, Artie. Let me put it
another way: what good do you think pointing your uninformed, speculative
opinions will bring for the cause of Kosen Rufu? We are supporting the
current High Priest. You are slandering him like a jackal in the shadows.
Cody
Artie
Craig,
That's not the question I asked. In fact, I don't think I ever asked
that question. To refresh your memory, here's the question -
> Now, I wish you'd answer the question. Have you believed, for the last 30 years,
> that Sokagakkai was "the same old cult", or did you believe, for the period from,
> say, 1979 to 1988, that it had transformed itself into an organization that
> correctly practiced and taught the Daishonin's Buddhism, only to fall off the wagon
> around 1989? Which was it? (Not "What do you think now?", "What did you think
> then?")
>
Got it?
Artie
Artie
Sr. Cody,
As much as I hate to say it, I think I'm more informed than you on the subject.
When I've asked this group on what basis they believe Rev. Abe to be the
legitimate successor to Nittatsu Shonin, you replied that you believed it
because no one else claimed to be the successor. Stone Eagle replied that there
was a book somewhere where Rev. Abe's name was entered after Nittatsu Shonin's
death based on his instructions prior to his death. Somehow, this book never
came up in any of the court cases. And that's about that. Nothing from CB, Foon,
Ipcress, etc. So, if you want to talk "uninformed, speculative opinions", I'd
suggest you bone up first.
As for the jackal in the shadows quote, I guess your machismo is getting the
better of you.
Artie
Cody
Your being a jackal in the shadows slandering our High Priest has nothing to
do with me.
I don't know much about the court cases you are referring to, but -
regardless of what was decided in those cases - our High Priest is still our
High Priest.
Just curious, what does your group think it will eventually achieve?
Cody
CB
that's what the implications are. The HP is doing a great job
- Protecting the Law
and
- Preserving the DaiGohonzon
His imperfections notwithstanding
C
Thomas Van Woezik
When I asked Rev.Taishin Takano a while back,about the 62nd High Priest,
the Rev.showed me the "history book" where he pointed out to me the
dates and the names of several High Priest who were living then.
DdD.
Artie
DdD,
You are correct. I never said that there were no retired High Priests (Zen
Hossu) alive at the time of his death. I said that he died without naming a
successor or handing down the Lineage.
Since you have a willingness to discuss these things with your priest, you
might ask him if Sections 14-2, 3, and 4 of the bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu
describe methods by which a High Priest is selected, should the current High
Priest die without naming a successor, and whether those bylaws cover both
the case when there is a living retired High Priest, and the case where
there is not.
Artie
Artie
Craig,
Not only are you unwilling to answer a simple question. You're even
unwilling to quote the question you're not answering in your reply.
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
11:23am CDT+5. I changed the subject/title to: What's so
"Frightening," to Artie, my old Myodoggie? - it's the Truth?!*
Well, I was trying to wait to post, until SOMEbody else developed some
sense into this sense-less thread somewhere down the line; BUT, "what's
so frightening" is that I've found that NObody even made an original
posting on this thread entitled as "Frightening" - that's really, truly
frightening to me, Artie, my old Myogoggie! ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
******************************************************
Re: Frightening
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 11:23am (CDT+5) From: myo...@bellatlantic.net
(Artie)
Cody wrote:
"Artie" <myo...@bellatlantic.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:3ADC2454...@bellatlantic.net ...
CB wrote:
Amazing. These very same people who are complaining about SGI remain as
members knowing that things will never change in SGI.
SGI is the same cult it was 30 years ago.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Craig,
If this is true, it leaves you the little problem of explaining how your
High Priest was blind to
that fact, praising and supporting both Mr. Ikeda and the gakkai both
before he assumed the High Priesthood and for 10 years thereafter.
Artie
---------------------------------------------------------------
MCody:
The High Priest has explained this. It's simple: He made a mistake.
Cody
---------------------------------------------------------------
And Craig added:
Why is it that people outside of NST always try to insist that our HP
should be infallable, and when it is discovered that he is not, they cry
cry cry?
Get over it Artie. You guys are no more part of NST than SGI is.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Well, boys, ...
And, where on the scale of bloopers might this one rate?
Let's see; as a result of this little faux pas, this little boo boo,
Rev. Abe
- [No-thing (Zen] put here]
- Forbid priests to criticize the Sokagakkai
- Punished the priests who insisted in [on] (correctly, in retrospect)
criticizing the Sokagakkai
- Required overseas believers to join Sokagakkai, rather than belong
solely to the temple or another lay organization
- Forbade overseas, non-Gakkai believers to go on Tozan
- Reinstated Daisaku Ikeda as Sokoto
- Ordained numerous adult Sokagakkai members as Nichiren Shoshu priests
and the list goes on.
>>> We could go over the definition of "mistake" - usually, a mistake is
a single instance - but, after a "mistake" like this, what does one do?
<--- #1.
1) RC comments: Answer - Well, what one can do or does is start trying
to use a little bit of common sense & grown-Ups' maturity, Artie, my old
Myodoggie! LOL.
Because, above all, "all of the above" administrative decisions were
really made collectively by the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin and the
Nichiren Shoshu Head Temple - Priesthood's entire administration/ group
of administrators, based upon the one (1) "single instance" of human
error(s) or mistake(s) made by both the 66th & 67th High Priests'
personal decision(s) to TRUST Mr D. Ikeda to be the "Sokoto" of ALL
Nichiren Shoshu lay organizations, and to try to forgive him for his own
human errors or mistakes that he may have made along the way while
actually trying to propagate Nichiren Daishonin's True Buddhism, the
Nichiren Shoshu!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Say "I made a mistake"? "Sorry"? <--- #2.
2) RC comments: See above #1. Answer - Well, I'm sorry to say that you
made a mistake in judgment and that that sounds so very child-ish to
me; so, you need to use common sense and some adult maturity to grow Up,
Artie my Myodoggie! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> imho, he's acted more like a hit and run driver. Damage? Ruined
lives? Lost faith? Just keep on driving. Who said I was a perfect
driver? <--- #3.
3) RC comments: See above #s 1 & 2. That's No-thing [Zen] but more of
the same kind of mistaken judgment in your poor analogy & questions that
sounds so child-ish to me; so, grow Up, Artie my Myodoggie! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> What would the head of a Japanese corporation do if he had made a
mistake of this magnitude? <--- #4.
4) RC comments: See above #s 1 - 3. That's still No-thing [Zen] but the
same kind of mistaken judgment in a different poor analogious type of
child-ish question which has NO relationship whatsoever to religious
affairs of "this magnitude," Artie my Myodoggie! ROTFL. War. } : < {
0
---------------------------------------------------------------
That's all.
Artie
******************************************************
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Mr T
<myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
Hi Artie,
I always respect your civil and intelligent attitude up here, despite
our difference in views.
As I understand it, the High Priest has a successor in mind virtually
the day he becomes High Priest. This is done in the event that something
happens to him.
Nittatsu had done so.
It stands to reason that within his lifetime, a few priests might have
thought that they were in line for the position.
--
Kurt
Roy Boyce
>
>Sr. Cody,
>
>As much as I hate to say it, I think I'm more informed than you on the subject.
>When I've asked this group on what basis they believe Rev. Abe to be the
>legitimate successor to Nittatsu Shonin, you replied that you believed it
>because no one else claimed to be the successor. Stone Eagle replied that there
>was a book somewhere where Rev. Abe's name was entered after Nittatsu Shonin's
>death based on his instructions prior to his death. Somehow, this book never
>came up in any of the court cases. And that's about that. Nothing from CB, Foon,
>Ipcress, etc. So, if you want to talk "uninformed, speculative opinions", I'd
>suggest you bone up first.
>As for the jackal in the shadows quote, I guess your machismo is getting the
>better of you.
>
>Artie
Here are some thoughts I previously posted concerning this matter.
From: rbo...@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Fact Checker Needed
Date: 02 Jul 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
In article <377C128B...@bellatlantic.net>,
artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
[omission]
> Now to confuse matters even more, Craig's original post, which
provoked this
> thread (see my original message), claimed that Rev. Abe assumed the
High
> Priesthood immediately on receiving the Heritage. Only problem is, he
announce
> that he was the chosen one, let alone assume the High Priesthood,
until after
> Nittatsu Shonin was dead.
[omission]
I have a Shoshinkai publication published in 1982 (the English
version in 1984) which states that Nikken Shonin went around the
Head Temple saying that he had been designated as Nittatsu
Shonin's successor prior to Nittatsu Shonin's death (unfortunately, I
don't have it with me right now so I can't quote it directly). The
publication's criticism is based on the fact that the usual formalities
attendant to the transfer were never completed, as basically outlined
by Artie.
It is probably true that the usual formalities were not completed due
to the circumstances surrounding the passing of Nittatsu Shonin.
However, while observance of the formalities is important, I do not
think Nittatsu Shonin's intent should have been defeated merely
because the circumstances made their observance impossible.
Obviously, there could be no more fundamental slander than
fraudently usurping the position of High Priest. If one has any faith
in the Dai-Gohonzon, one would expect that such a person's reign
would be short and end miserably. However, Nikken Shonin has
been High Priest for nearly 20 years during what is certainly one of
the most critical periods in the history of Nichiren Shoshu. Moreover,
he has successfully purged the sect of the evil influence of Ikeda. He
has set it back on the course of the Founder, a goal he set at the time
he became High Priest. The facts suggest that the Daishonin has
validated Nikken Shonin as the leader of the sect during this crucial
period.
The Shoshinkai priests did not seriously challenge the High Priest's
succession (there may have been a peep or two -- but no serious
effort to remove him) until after they concluded that Nikken Shonin
was not treating the Soka Gakkai (SG) in the way they thought
Nittatsu Shonin would have. Although Nikken Shonin accepted
Ikeda's 1980 apology (which he has since conceded was a mistake
since we now know that the apology was a fraud), it was clear in
Nikken Shonin's statements at the time that his posture toward the
SG was contingent on their making good on their promises. Nikken
Shonin in fact did act vigorously once it became clear that the SG
was reneging. Evidently, the Shoshinkai priests seriously misjudged
him in apparently assuming that he was merely a Gakkai pawn.
Despite its hatred of the SG, the Shoshinkai has in fact never been
other than a great boon to the SG. The SG has always used it as a
propaganda foil, including justifying Ikeda's November 1990 speech
as merely an attack on the Shoshinkai, not on Nichiren Shoshu. The
withdrawal of the Shoshinkai priests weakened the head temple
during the 1980s, making difficult any serious opposition to
deviational tendencies in the SG and enabling Ikeda to insert his
spies into the priesthood. Since the split, the SGI has adopted many
of the attacks on the High Priesthood relied upon by the Shoshinkai.
Artie previously shared with me some Oko lectures by Rev. Tono,
whose knowledge of Buddhism I respect. It pains me that such talent
and dedication are being largely wasted when the only thing
apparently left is a quarrel with a High Priest who has in fact
accomplished every thing that the Shoshinkai initially hoped to
accomplish. Apart from that, it appears that the Shoshinkai has no
remaining meaningful raison d'etre. It also appears to be a tiny sect
with little hope of becoming a serious movement for true kosen-rufu.
I would hope that the Shoshinkai priests and lay believers would
seriously consider all of the events of the last twenty years as they
may reflect the Daishonin's intent, and not become eternally bogged
down in an increasingly ancient dispute.
Roy Boyce
The question confuses what we know now with what we could reliably have known at
the time (1979-88).
Thirty years ago was 1971. I suspect that Nittatsu Shonin was aware of the
deviational tendencies in the Gakkai at that time. However, he did not
instantly expel them. He rather made diligent efforts to correct those
tendencies until 1978. At that time, he confronted the Gakkai which purported
to apologize. While many people no doubt suspected (accurately as it turned
out) that the apologies were insincere, it would have been a questionable act to
expel the Gakkai based only on suspicions. The Gakkai was ultimately expelled
when its actions made clear its total deviation from Nichiren Shoshu doctrine.
Both Nittatsu Shonin and Nikken Shonin nonetheless made efforts to correct the
Gakkai deviations rather than to instantly apply sanctions. After all, there
were millions of people stuck in the Gakkai and it was worth some risk to try to
save them from the fate of being led out of Nichiren Shoshu by a demagogue that,
unfortunately, many of them have ultimately experienced.
Reginald Carpenter
11:20am CDT+5. I changed the subject/title to: Re: Heritage of the
Law/ Specific Transfer book!*
Re: Frightening
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
(Artie)
Cody wrote:
"Artie" <myo...@bellatlantic.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:3ADE3F34...@bellatlantic.net...
Cody wrote:
Get over it, Artie. Nichiren Shoshu isn't going to change for you. We
believe in Honin Myo, do you?
Cody
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sr. Cody,
I'd be crushed, except I didn't ask them to change for me. Just trying
to point out the hypocracy and spin when I see it.
What's this about Hon'in myo? Nichiren Daishonin is the True Buddha of
Hon'in myo, the true cause, the sower of the seed of Buddhahood.
Shakyamuni was the Buddha of Honga myo, who showed the true effect.
Human beings of mappo are without the original seed, and thus need to be
seeded, so our practice is that of Hon'in myo - to be in the state of
cause. So I believe in that, yes. If you think that hon'in myo is that
"start fresh, every day is a new day" attitude (from the Classic Comics
book of NSA Buddhism), then you'd best have a talk with your priest.
Otherwise, you'll have to explain to me what you meant by your question.
Artie
---------------------------------------------------------------
I know about the True Cause and the True Effect, Artie. Let me put it
another way: what good do you think pointing your uninformed,
speculative opinions will bring for the cause of Kosen Rufu? We are
supporting the current High Priest. You are slandering him like a jackal
in the shadows.
Cody
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sr. Cody,
As much as I hate to say it, I think I'm more informed than you on the
subject. When I've asked this group on what basis they believe Rev. Abe
to be the legitimate successor to Nittatsu Shonin, you replied that you
believed it because no one else claimed to be the successor.
>>> Stone Eagle replied that there was a book somewhere where Rev. Abe's
name was entered after Nittatsu Shonin's death based on his instructions
prior to his death. <--- #1.
1) RC comments: Well, I must say, "thank you," and verify that you have
very accurately quoted Stone Eagle (me), Artie you old Myodoggie.
Because, I guess you must have changed your old flea-collar just like I
told you to - "Wonders Never Cease To Be"! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Somehow, this book never came up in any of the court cases. And
that's about that. <--- #2.
2) RC comments: Because, "somehow," [that] book never came Up in any of
the court cases," because the Nichiren Shoshu never needed it in any
court case, and that sorry-ass Shoshinkai NUTgroup never wanted it to
show Up - it'd be against them in a court case!
Duh, Artie you old Myodoggie - FOOL?! LOL.
So, we agree - "that's about that" - case closed! LOL. WorldPeace! }
: < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing from CB, Foon, Ipcress, etc. So, if you want to talk
"uninformed, speculative opinions", I'd suggest you bone up first.
As for the jackal in the shadows quote, I guess your machismo is getting
the better of you.
Artie
greengables
were persuaded by the devil and now have that devil in you. (figuratively
speaking, I am sure you are a very nice person Art!).
greenie
greengables
His Life from time without beginning, the seed of Buddhahood which He alone is
endowed to directly plant in the lives of the people of the Latter Day.
Furthermore, the Daishonin's Buddhism teaches the doctrine of oneness of kuon
ganjo and the Latter Day of the Law, which means that the Daishonin provides
the original seed of Buddhahood from kuon to all living beings of Mappo; thus
completing the three stages of sowing, maturing, harvesting in this existence,
and enabling all to attain Buddhahood. The true substance of this teaching is
the principle of actual three thousand realms in a single life-momnet hidden in
the depths of the Honmon Teaching, and the Daimoku, with the Object of Worship
of the Honmon Teaching as its entity.
My question for you Artie is this: What is your object of worship (nevermind
what priest teaches you)?
greenie
Artie
> Your being a jackal in the shadows slandering our High Priest has nothing to
> do with me.
>
> I don't know much about the court cases you are referring to, but -
> regardless of what was decided in those cases - our High Priest is still our
> High Priest.
>
> Just curious, what does your group think it will eventually achieve?
>
> Cody
Sr. Cody,
When last I looked in a mirror, I was not utterly handsome, but I bore no
reasonable resemblance to a jackal, so I'll have to assume that this is merely a
characterization, a product of your own inner world. As for the shadows, what
could be more public than arbn? I have tried to stick to the facts, as regards
your High Priest, and have merely pointed out that he has made some rather
enormous mistakes, and that he has failed to answer any of a number of valid
questions concerning the legitimacy of his succession. In the absence of some
explanation, the facts suggest that his succession was not legitimate. If you
want to call that slander, be my guest.
The court cases had to do with Nichiren Shoshu's attempt to reclaim the temples
of the Shoshinkai priests. The priests countered that Rev. Abe was not the
legitimate High Priest, and so, their excommunications were not legal. The
various courts heard evidence challenging the legitimacy of Rev. Abe's
succession, but ultimately ruled that it was not a matter for them to decide.
The Shoshinkai priests are still in their temples (or at least, the ones where
they were chief priest). I'm not sure, but those temples may revert to Nichiren
Shoshu on the death of those priests. Rev. Abe will be your High Priest for as
long as you chose to accept him as such.
I am not a spokesperson for Shoshinkai, but my understanding of what Shoshinkai
hopes to achieve is to seek, study and correctly learn and propagate the
ultimate teachings of Nichiren Daishonin, and to correct those whose faith and /
or understanding is incorrect. You should understand that this effort did not
take place outside of Nichiren Shoshu until Rev. Abe decided to excommunicate
the priests who became the Shoshinkai. They are continuing their efforts, based
on the training they received from Nittatsu Shonin.
Artie
Artie
Mr T wrote:
> Hi Artie,
>
> I always respect your civil and intelligent attitude up here, despite
> our difference in views.
> As I understand it, the High Priest has a successor in mind virtually
> the day he becomes High Priest. This is done in the event that something
> happens to him.
> Nittatsu had done so.
> It stands to reason that within his lifetime, a few priests might have
> thought that they were in line for the position.
>
> --
> Kurt
>
> ab...@renaultcaravelle.com
Thank you Kurt, and in our dealings, you have always been on the level, as
well.
I am hardly one to speak with any authority on what High Priests have in mind
from the day they become High Priest. Clearly, 62nd High Priest, Nikkyo Shonin,
died without having named a successor, and the sect is fortunate that he was
survived by several retired High Priests. Neither I, nor anyone whose opinion I
respect on the matter, has ever claimed that Nittatsu Shonin ever named a
successor. There is no "alternate High Priest" theory that I know of.
We do know, however, that according to bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu, promulgated
during Nittatsu Shonin's tenure, the High Priest is supposed to select his
successor from among the priests with the spiritual "rank" of Noke, and on that
selection, the successor will be elevated to the spiritual "rank" of GakuTo. We
also know that, at the time of Rev. Abe's claimed meeting with Nittatsu Shonin,
more than a year before Nittatsu Shonin's death, Rev. Abe was of spiritual
"rank" Dai-Sozu, one large step below Noke. Until the time of Nittatsu Shonin's
death, Rev. Abe remained Dai-Sozu.
Artie
Artie
Greenie,
I'm sure you're a nice person, as well. I guess Rev. Shiina is another one of what
we'll have to refer to as Rev. Abe's "mistakes". Was he the devil when he was the
Chief Priest of Myosetsuji? Or did he become one later?
The only thing he persuaded me of was that I wanted nothing further to do with him
or an administration that would inflict him on New York. He did that in 1981. It
was his behavior, as well as his words, that made the case for me.
I don't believe he was able to impregnate me with his "devil".
Artie
eponym
course i am not the sort of person to be put off by personalities. Priests have
karma too and I think your experience makes it perfectly clear that that is the
case. That is why we do not follow priests slavishly and use our Buddha wisdom
as well as learn how to practice correctly. I haven't met a Nichiren Shoshu
priest I didn't like but they are not a homogenous group, every priest is
completely different and some are more easy for me to talk with than
others--that doesn't mean that there is no communication in silence either.
The true fact is what you have confessed here on the open internet--that you
were influenced heavily by this priest--enough to leave Myosetsuji Temple. That
is a fact whether it is telling about you or the priest or both. Buddhism can
only be destroyed from within.
Good luck, I am sure it will all come out in the wash, devils included.
Greenie
Artie
Greenie,
I'm sorry if I implied that, but for Rev. Shiina, I would still be in Nichiren
Shoshu, as if I left in a temper tantrum, or something. He certainly helped speed
my exit, but his attitude and behavior were only part of a pattern, starting from
the top. As I mentioned in a previous post, Rev. Abe's actions from that time
period included the likes of:
- Forbidding priests to criticize the Sokagakkai
- Punishing the priests who insisted (correctly, in retrospect) on criticizing
the Sokagakkai
- Requiring overseas believers to join Sokagakkai, rather than belong solely to
the temple or another lay organization
- Forbidding overseas, non-Gakkai believers to go on Tozan
- Reinstating Daisaku Ikeda as Sokoto
- Ordaining numerous adult Sokagakkai members as Nichiren Shoshu priests
Rev. Shiina, and Rev. Mayekawa, who came to "install" him struck me as exemplifying
Rev. Abe's apparent attitude towards the Gakkai. It might have been harder to leave
were they friendly, humble, thoughtful and considerate, but they were far from
that.
I'd like to think that, like Sessen Doji, I'd seek the teaching from a demon, if he
posessed the correct teaching. Given what I knew about Soka Gakkai, I was confident
that anyone who would order me back into that organization could not be a trusted
source of the teaching.
Artie
P.S. You never did answer my question about whether Rev. Shiina was the devil (your
characterization, not mine) while he was in New York.
dc
be in Nichiren
Shoshu, as if I left in a temper tantrum, or something. He certainly helped
speed
my exit, but his attitude and behavior were only part of a pattern, starting
from
the top. As I mentioned in a previous post, Rev. Abe's actions from that
time
period included the likes of:
- Forbidding priests to criticize the Sokagakkai
- Punishing the priests who insisted (correctly, in retrospect) on
criticizing
the Sokagakkai
- Requiring overseas believers to join Sokagakkai, rather than belong solely
to
the temple or another lay organization
- Forbidding overseas, non-Gakkai believers to go on Tozan
- Reinstating Daisaku Ikeda as Sokoto
- Ordaining numerous adult Sokagakkai members as Nichiren Shoshu
priests<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Artie, it is not the priesthood that did these things, it is Daisaku Ikeda.
He is that good of a manipulator. He had most everyone convinced that he
was sorry for his actions. And face this reality: there are always going
to be beliwvers who are the grumblers and suspicious. One cannot make
decisions, assuimgn som one is lying. Nittatsu Shonin and Nikken Shonin,
tried to communicate to Ikeda and Ikeda treaded water. He was good, very
good at playing them. But, to openly oppose the High Priest as the
Shoshinkai did, is just as bad as the SGI. Ikeda played you guys too. Rev
Tono and the others, played right into Ikedas hands, causing a break of
unity of the Priests. Ikeda loved it and capitalized on it. Blaming the
High Priest and Nichiren Shoshu for this is a grievous error and if the
Shoshinkai members attempted to return to Nichiren Shoshu sincerely I am
sure they would be welcomed. Of course the same is true of all SGI members
as well. the key word here of course is --sincere.
All this arguing over theory is complete crap. Its the members themsleves
that made up NSA, not the leaders who were using them for ego purposes,
wealth and power. Members can save Kosen rufu. Buddhism has nothing to do
with anything but human effort to unite into a single mind in spirit, so
they can change this disgusting, greedy and hurtful world.
dc
Artie
Roy,
I'll have to withhold comment until I see this publication (which, I guess means
until you dig it up). This is not a story that I have heard. Further, there were
things published here under the name of Shoshinkai that may not accurately reflect
the beliefs of the Shoshinkai priests. If you can get me a copy, I'll see what I can
find out.
The claim is not that the formalities were never completed; there is no evidence that
they were ever initiated, nor that there was any reason to initiate them. As I
mentioned in a prior post, the bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu, adopted during Nittatsu
Shonin's tenure, specified that the High Priest select a successor from among those
priests holding the spiritual "rank" of Noke. That individual is then elevated to the
spiritual "rank" of GakuTo. At the time of the alleged meeting on which Rev. Abe
rests his claim of succession (April 15, 1978), Rev. Abe's spiritual "rank" was
Dai-Sozu - one significant step below Noke. He remained a Dai-Sozu until the time of
Nittatsu Shonin's death, more than a year later. Nor has he indicated what took place
at that meeting. Had he actually received the Lineage, it would be expected that
Nittatsu Shonin would have retired and allowed Rev. Abe to assume the High Priesthood
(as is traditional in Nichiren Shoshu). If he was simply designated at the time, that
should have resulted in a change to his spiritual "rank".
This is clearly not a matter of the formalities not being completed, nor can it be
attributed to Nittatsu Shonin's failing health.
>
> It is probably true that the usual formalities were not completed due
> to the circumstances surrounding the passing of Nittatsu Shonin.
> However, while observance of the formalities is important, I do not
> think Nittatsu Shonin's intent should have been defeated merely
> because the circumstances made their observance impossible.
Again, there is no indication that this was Nittatsu Shonin's intent, let alone that
the formalities were not completed due to the circumstances surrounding his death.
>
> Obviously, there could be no more fundamental slander than
> fraudently usurping the position of High Priest. If one has any faith
> in the Dai-Gohonzon, one would expect that such a person's reign
> would be short and end miserably. However, Nikken Shonin has
> been High Priest for nearly 20 years during what is certainly one of
> the most critical periods in the history of Nichiren Shoshu. Moreover,
> he has successfully purged the sect of the evil influence of Ikeda. He
> has set it back on the course of the Founder, a goal he set at the time
> he became High Priest. The facts suggest that the Daishonin has
> validated Nikken Shonin as the leader of the sect during this crucial
> period.
I think it's quite dangerous for ignorant common mortals, such as we two, to try to
predict the precise manner in which the consequences of the law of cause and effect
will manifest themselves. One could certainly argue that Mr. Ikeda's "reign" has been
neither short nor miserable, and I don't know of any Shoshinkai priest who begrudges
his decision to disobey Rev. Abe. Rev. Abe has certainly seen the sect through some
turbulent times, but I don't know that the sect has emerged for the better. He
excommunicated 1/3 of the sect's priests (The most devoted ones, I would argue); he
has seen a number of other priests leave of their own free will. I don't know how you
can say that he has purged the sect of the influence of Mr. Ikeda when there remain
ordained Soka Gakkai members of questionable loyalty, who Rev. Abe brought into the
priesthood. And, I honestly don't think that he has set the sect back on the
Founder's course. For one, I know that Shoshinkai priests contest a number of points
of Rev. Abe's exposition of doctrine, which they believe are contrary to the
traditional teachings of Nichiren Shoshu. Unfortunately, these points are well beyond
my level of understanding, and much of the source material is in Japanese. Second,
Rev. Abe's excommunication of Mr. Ikeda, and then the Sokagakkai seemed to have a lot
more to do with their attitude to him, than with the myriads of doctrinal distortions
that preceeded his term and continued, throughout it. (That, and the Ode to Joy.) As
an outside observer, it appeared to me that Soka Gakkai was free to do and expound
whatever they wanted, so long as they paid lip service to Rev. Abe. It was only when
they began to openly criticize and belittle him that the trouble began.
I find the statement that "The facts suggest that the Daishonin has validated Nikken
Shonin as the leader of the sect during this crucial period." to be nothing short of
bizarre. What kind of a characterization is this of the Daishonin? Is he an
omnipotent being? A puppeteer? I cannot even begin to respond to this. Of course we
now have both Rev. Abe and Mr. Ikeda claiming the endorsement of the Daishonin.
>
> The Shoshinkai priests did not seriously challenge the High Priest's
> succession (there may have been a peep or two -- but no serious
> effort to remove him) until after they concluded that Nikken Shonin
> was not treating the Soka Gakkai (SG) in the way they thought
> Nittatsu Shonin would have. Although Nikken Shonin accepted
> Ikeda's 1980 apology (which he has since conceded was a mistake
> since we now know that the apology was a fraud), it was clear in
> Nikken Shonin's statements at the time that his posture toward the
> SG was contingent on their making good on their promises. Nikken
> Shonin in fact did act vigorously once it became clear that the SG
> was reneging. Evidently, the Shoshinkai priests seriously misjudged
> him in apparently assuming that he was merely a Gakkai pawn.
Actually, the Shoshinkai priests did not initially "challenge" Rev. Abe's succession,
but rather, questioned him about the circumstances surrounding it. (It was suspicious
questioning, to be sure.) It was for these two questionaires that they were
excommunicated, not for actually denying the legitimacy of his succession. They did
not actually challenge his succession per se, until after their excommunication. I
think the priesthood, as a whole, were reluctant to challenge Rev. Abe's claims for
at least two reasons. First, they amounted to directly accusing him of lying, and
second, because there was no one else known to be Nittatsu Shonin's successor. This
reluctance promoted a "wait and see" attitude.
As I said before, I believe Rev. Abe's actions towards the Sokagakkai arose more from
their increasingly hostile attitude towards him than from their doctrinal deviations.
I don't think his subsequent actions absolves him in any way from charges that he
abused his authority and responsibility to the benefit of the Sokagakkai for the ten
years after he assumed the High Priesthood. (And I never used the word "pawn".)
History is full of collaborators, who subsequently split up and became the worst of
enemies. Look at Bill Clinton and Dick Morris ;>^
>
> Despite its hatred of the SG, the Shoshinkai has in fact never been
> other than a great boon to the SG. The SG has always used it as a
> propaganda foil, including justifying Ikeda's November 1990 speech
> as merely an attack on the Shoshinkai, not on Nichiren Shoshu. The
> withdrawal of the Shoshinkai priests weakened the head temple
> during the 1980s, making difficult any serious opposition to
> deviational tendencies in the SG and enabling Ikeda to insert his
> spies into the priesthood. Since the split, the SGI has adopted many
> of the attacks on the High Priesthood relied upon by the Shoshinkai.
I don't know that you are in a position to judge the overall impact of Shoshinkai.
Their objective has always been to seek and propagate the Teaching, and to refute
slander. This, they have done consistently for over 20 years.One might accuse
Boddhisattva Fukyo of being ineffective, as well. They have certainly made statements
about both the Sokagakkai and Rev. Abe's Nichiren Shoshu. If the statements were
inaccurate, that's one thing, but if they were accurate, then you'd be better off
examining why such statements could be made about Nichiren Shoshu rather than blaming
Shoshinkai for making the statements. It is not surprising that both sides have made
use of their statements to attack the other, but that reflects their own intellectual
dishonesty. It is not a reason to criticize Shoshinkai. I would suspect that
Shoshinkai's presence has affected both the actions of Nichiren Shoshu and the
Sokagakkai, perhaps restraining them to some extent, but that's my opinion. Your
reference to the "withdrawal of the Shoshinkai priests" reaches new levels of
absurdity. They did not withdraw; they were kicked out by Rev. Abe. And the spies,
(that you declined to mention when you said, "he has successfully purged the sect of
the evil influence of Ikeda") are there by his grace, as well. Shoshinkai has not, to
the best of my knowledge, attacked the High Priesthood; they have criticized Rev.
Abe. I hope you can appreciate the difference.
>
> Artie previously shared with me some Oko lectures by Rev. Tono,
> whose knowledge of Buddhism I respect. It pains me that such talent
> and dedication are being largely wasted when the only thing
> apparently left is a quarrel with a High Priest who has in fact
> accomplished every thing that the Shoshinkai initially hoped to
> accomplish. Apart from that, it appears that the Shoshinkai has no
> remaining meaningful raison d'etre. It also appears to be a tiny sect
> with little hope of becoming a serious movement for true kosen-rufu.
> I would hope that the Shoshinkai priests and lay believers would
> seriously consider all of the events of the last twenty years as they
> may reflect the Daishonin's intent, and not become eternally bogged
> down in an increasingly ancient dispute.
It pains me as well, but I question whether his efforts are "wasted", as you suggest.
I would take issue with your assertion that Rev. Abe has accomplished all that
Shoshinkai set out to accomplish. If anything, I think he has established a few more
teachings to debunk, and a few more misimpressions to correct. As for the "raison
d'etre" of the Shoshinkai, you seem to keep forgetting that the Shoshinkai was not
"created" out of thin air. It was created by priests who were excommunicated by your
Rev. Abe. Priests who decided that they didn't want to betray their oaths by
abandoning their lifes' work. The Shoshinkai priests are incapable of
un-excommunicating themselves. If there is to be a reunification of any type, it
would seem obvious that the first move is up to the party that removed them from
Nichiren Shoshu in the first place. Precisely because they reflect on the Daishonin's
intent, I suspect (and this is only my opinion) that the Shoshinkai priests would not
return in the absence of significant changes from today's Nichiren Shoshu. In
comparison to other disputes within the history of Nichiren Shoshu, this one is far
from ancient. I personally do not believe that it will be resolved absent the death,
resignation, or apology of Rev. Abe.
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
CDT+5. I changed the subject/title to: Re: what's so "frightening" to
Artie my Myodoggie - the Truth!*
Re: Frightening
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
(Artie)
Roy Boyce wrote:
Here are some thoughts I previously posted concerning this matter.
From: rbo...@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Fact Checker Needed
Date: 02 Jul 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
In article <377C128B...@bellatlantic.net>, artie
<myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
[omission]
RC notes: snipped the rest of that mess-age to below.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
>>> The claim is not that the formalities were never completed; there is
no evidence that they were ever initiated, nor that there was any reason
to initiate them. <--- #1.
1) RC comments: Well evidently, that "claim" is/was No-thing [Zen] but a
"Shoshinkai", nka. Sho-Stinky-Kai BIG Lie that was told by some
OBSESSIVE, sho' nuff, lying-ass, sleazy & snakey, sorry-ass,
UNreasonable FOOLS who initiated it and there is/was "NO evidence" or
logical reason to even believe it, Artie my flea-brained, old Myodoggie
- FOOL! ROTFL.
Furthermore, as I shall prove below, "there is NO evidence" that
"Shoshinkai", nka. Sho-stinky-kai priests & laity like Artie the
Myodoggie even possess or use a minuscule of common sense or logic,
which is so tragic! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> As I mentioned in a prior post, the bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu,
adopted during Nittatsu Shonin's tenure, specified that the High Priest
select a successor from among those priests holding the spiritual "rank"
of Noke. That individual is then elevated to the spiritual "rank" of
GakuTo. <--- #1a.
1a) RC comments: Pray tell, how in the H-e-l-l can/could anyone be given
a so called "spiritual rank," and how can/could anyone tell what is/was
anyone else's "spiritual rank"?! ROTFL.
Gee, I am going to have to rush out today, without delay, to see a real
NST chief priest at a real NST local temple and demand, NOT ask, to see
those alleged old "bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu," 'cause Artie & the
OBSESSIVE, sho' nuff, lying-ass, sleazy & snakey, sorry-ass
Sho-stinky-kai say that it's so; and to find out what my so called
"spiritual rank" is supposed to be, in the True Buddha's Army - I reckon
that maybe, my a-s-s, is just a BFC - "Buddhist First Class"! [rhymes]
ROTFL.
Frankly, although I humbly feel that I'm long over-due for a promotion
to some-thing "Higher" - Sly & the Family Stone, I feel that at least
I'm higher in rank than ANY OBSESSIVE, sho' nuff, lying-ass, sleazy &
snakey, sorry-ass Sho-stinky-kai priest like Rev. Bono "Dunno" Tono or
his GROUPIE laity like Artie my Myodoggie, or than those two (2) old 3Ds
- Dumb & Dumber Doofusses - Dave "DC"- Drug Crazed Cole & DC - DumM.y
Cody who have their AAIBH - Arbn Armchair Internet Buddhist Hypocrite
spots, DFC - Dumb-ass First Class, all locked Up tight right now for
life, or until the end of eternity, which ever comes first! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> At the time of the alleged meeting on which Rev. Abe rests his claim
of succession (April 15, 1978), Rev. Abe's spiritual "rank" was Dai-Sozu
- one significant step below Noke. He remained a Dai-Sozu until the time
of Nittatsu Shonin's death, more than a year later. Nor has he indicated
what took place at that meeting. <--- #1b.
1b) RC comments: See above #s 1 & 1a. Nor is/was it anybody's d-a-m-ned
business "what took place at that meeting," especially any busy
body/bodies involved with the OBSESSIVE, sho' nuff, lying-ass, sleazy &
snakey, sorry-ass Sho-stinky-kai like you, Artie my flea-brained, old
Myodoggie! LOL.
And, If you OBSESSIVE people in that sho' nuff, lying-ass, sleazy &
snakey, sorry-ass Sho-stinky-kai really are that STUPID to think that,
just on the basis or in terms of an invisible, so called "spiritual
rank," a person is supposed to be qualified to be chosen as a successor
to the High Priest's office of the Nichiren Shoshu, then you all are
really "one significant step below" normal intelligence, or just short
of playing with a full deck, Artie my flea-brained, old Myodoggie -
FOOL! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Had he actually received the Lineage, it would be expected that
Nittatsu Shonin would have retired and allowed Rev. Abe to assume the
High Priesthood (as is traditional in Nichiren Shoshu). If he was simply
designated at the time, that should have resulted in a change to his
spiritual "rank". <--- #1c.
1c) RC comments: See above #s 1 - 1b. Well, this is actually a case &
matter in which you and/or that sho' nuff, lying-ass, sleazy & snakey,
sorry-ass Sho'-stinky-kai just do NOT really know what in the H-e-l-l
you're talking about and are/were NOT qualified to say what is or is NOT
"traditional in Nichiren Shoshu"!
Since all of your sho' nuff Sho-stinky-kai priests were EXCOMMUNICATED
from the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood approx twenty (20) years ago, they
all are No-thing [Zen] but just a bunch of people carrying & holding a
BIG grudge and LYING all about it, and getting their gullible GROUPIES
like you to hold a BIG grudge and LIE all about it for them too, Artie
my old, flea-bitten Myodoggie! ROTFL.
Because, it is recorded/ written in {what I have called it to identify
it} the Nichiren Shoshu's Heritage of the Law/Specific Transfer book
where many years have passed, BEFORE a High Priest was actually
succeeded by His own, chosen successor, AFTER the specific heritage of
the Law was transferred between them!
A "case in point" is/was the second (2nd) specific transfer of the
heritage of the Law which was between the 2nd High Priest/ Nikko Shonin
and the 3rd High Priest/ Nichimoku Shonin:
*It was transferred between them in the year 1290, but it was NOT until
the year 1332 that Nikko Shonin actually gave Nichimoku Shonin a
transfer document that officially transferred the Dai-Gohonzon to him
and charged him with the Administration of Taiseki-ji and the observance
of daily worship for Kosen-rufu; then, at that time, Nichimoku Shonin
officially became the 3rd high Priest of the Nichiren Shoshu religion,
some forty-two (42) years later AFTER the specific heritage of the Law
had been passed between them!*
* reference - entry for Nichimoku Shonin in "A Dictionary of Buddhist
Terms & Concepts, 1st edition, copyright 1983 by NSIC; page #292-293.
So, listen Up, FOOL! LOL.
Contrary to what you and the rest of those lying-ass, low life
conditioned, OBSESSIVE, silly-ass, sleazy, sho' nuff, sorry-ass, STUPID,
Sho-stinky-kai priests may want to keep on thinking & crying, and LYING
about for the rest of your UNnatural lives, there is NO time limit or a
stop watch put on the life span of a current High Priest OR their tenure
in offiice, OR the transfer of the specific heritage of the Law, OR the
succession of High Priests into that office, either before or after the
death and/or retirement of their predecessors - bylaws or NO d-a-m-ned
bylaws, Artie my flea-brained Myodoggie - IDIOT! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This is clearly not a matter of the formalities not being completed,
nor can it be attributed to Nittatsu Shonin's failing health. <--- #1d.
1d) RC comments: See above #s 1 - 1c. Well, I agree that, "this is
clearly NOT a matter" of whether or NOT any formalities were completed
or that being attributed to the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin's
failing health.
This IS clearly just a matter of IMBECILITY by a bunch of High Priest
wannabe's called the Shoshinkai, nka. sho' nuff, silly-ass, sleazy &
snakey, sorry-ass Sho-stinky-kai just being so arrogant & ignorant, and
INsubordinate & OBSESSIVE about the "bylaws" & "the formalities" of the
Nichiren Shoshu at that time being followed, DESPITE the reality of the
66th High Priest, Nittatsu Shonin's failing health conditions, instead
of having the humanity to be concerned for his health at that time and
just minding their own d-a-m-ned business!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> It is probably true that the usual formalities were not completed
due to the circumstances surrounding the passing of Nittatsu Shonin.
<--- #1e.
1e) RC comments: "D-a-m-n Sam!" Well, I guess that the brain surgery
you must have had on your flea-brain must have been successful for you
to have become so enlightened now to something so obvious as that which
has been a known fact for over 20 years - simply "that the usual
formalities were NOT completed, due to the passing of Nittatsu Shonin,"
Artie my flea-brained, old Myodoggie FOOL! ROTFL.
Gee, maybe the "Right-eous Reverend" Bono "Dunno" Tono, alias "Jesse
"JJ" Jackson/ Tono will throw you a BIG bone, or put a new flea-collar
on you and give you an extra government grilled cheese sandwich, or
promote you to the "spiritual rank" of GFC - Groupie First Class in his
group for the burst of brilliance on this long-winded, DUMB-ASS message
of yours, Artie my GFC, flea-brained, old Myodoggie! ROTFL & LMAO.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
However, while observance of the formalities is important, I do not
think Nittatsu Shonin's intent should have been defeated merely because
the circumstances made their observance impossible.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
>>> Again, there is no indication that this was Nittatsu Shonin's
intent, let alone that the formalities were not completed due to the
circumstances surrounding his death. <--- #2.
2) RC comments: See above #1 - 1e. Well, "again, there is NO indication
that" the sho' nuff, lying-ass, sleazy & snakey, sorry-ass
Sho-stinky-kai priests ever possessed & used a minuscule of common sense
or logic, "let alone" really ever knew that "the formalities" either
were or were NOT completed "due to the circumstances surrounding his
death;" so they just are NOT qualified to even discuss it after being
EXCOMMUNICATED from the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood approx twenty (20)
years ago! ROTFL.
Because, in my opinion, the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin gave
anyone with common sense or a lick of logic a CLEAR "indication that
this was [his] intent," for "someone you should know" who became "Nikken
Shonin" to succeed him as High Priest, by promoting someone known by the
name of "Reverend Abe" from being the head of the Nichiren Shoshu Study
Dept for eighteen (18) years, to the position of general administrator
of the entire Head Temple, Taiseki-ji, which is the "first or next in
line" position next to being the actual chief administrator - head or
high priest of the entire NST - Nichiren Shoshu Temple world-wide
organization of temples, priests & laity in unity, of course!
BTW - by the way, as I have previously posted that info on Arbn from an
old, 1979 Seikyo Times magazine, that promotion in rank to "Rev. Abe,"
nka. Nikken Shonin, both spiritually & materially, just happened to have
occurred on "One Fine Day" - the Chiffons, "in the merry, merry month of
May," while the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin was still alive for
some reason to do that, Artie, my flea-brained, old Myodoggie! LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
Obviously, there could be no more fundamental slander than fraudently
usurping the position of High Priest. If one has any faith in the
Dai-Gohonzon, one would expect that such a person's reign would be short
and end miserably. However, Nikken Shonin has been High Priest for
nearly 20 years during what is certainly one of the most critical
periods in the history of Nichiren Shoshu. Moreover, he has successfully
purged the sect of the evil influence of Ikeda. He has set it back on
the course of the Founder, a goal he set at the time he became High
Priest. The facts suggest that the Daishonin has validated Nikken Shonin
as the leader of the sect during this crucial period.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
---------------------------------------------------------------Roy:
The Shoshinkai priests did not seriously challenge the High Priest's
succession (there may have been a peep or two -- but no serious effort
to remove him) until after they concluded that Nikken Shonin was not
treating the Soka Gakkai (SG) in the way they thought Nittatsu Shonin
would have. Although Nikken Shonin accepted Ikeda's 1980 apology (which
he has since conceded was a mistake since we now know that the apology
was a fraud), it was clear in Nikken Shonin's statements at the time
that his posture toward the SG was contingent on their making good on
their promises. Nikken Shonin in fact did act vigorously once it became
clear that the SG was reneging. Evidently, the Shoshinkai priests
seriously misjudged him in apparently assuming that he was merely a
Gakkai pawn.
---------------------------------------------------------------Artie:
Actually, the Shoshinkai priests did not initially "challenge" Rev.
Abe's succession, but rather, questioned him about the circumstances
surrounding it. (It was suspicious questioning, to be sure.) It was for
these two questionaires that they were excommunicated, not for actually
denying the legitimacy of his succession. They did not actually
challenge his succession per se, until after their excommunication. I
think the priesthood, as a whole, were reluctant to challenge Rev. Abe's
claims for at least two reasons. First, they amounted to directly
accusing him of lying, and second, because there was no one else known
to be Nittatsu Shonin's successor. This reluctance promoted a "wait and
see" attitude.
As I said before, I believe Rev. Abe's actions towards the Sokagakkai
arose more from their increasingly hostile attitude towards him than
from their doctrinal deviations. I don't think his subsequent actions
absolves him in any way from charges that he abused his authority and
responsibility to the benefit of the Sokagakkai for the ten years after
he assumed the High Priesthood. (And I never used the word "pawn".)
History is full of collaborators, who subsequently split up and became
the worst of enemies. Look at Bill Clinton and Dick Morris ;>^
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
Despite its hatred of the SG, the Shoshinkai has in fact never been
other than a great boon to the SG. The SG has always used it as a
propaganda foil, including justifying Ikeda's November 1990 speech as
merely an attack on the Shoshinkai, not on Nichiren Shoshu. The
withdrawal of the Shoshinkai priests weakened the head temple during the
1980s, making difficult any serious opposition to deviational tendencies
in the SG and enabling Ikeda to insert his spies into the priesthood.
Since the split, the SGI has adopted many of the attacks on the High
Priesthood relied upon by the Shoshinkai.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
I don't know that you are in a position to judge the overall impact of
Shoshinkai. Their objective has always been to seek and propagate the
Teaching, and to refute slander. This, they have done consistently for
over 20 years.One might accuse Boddhisattva Fukyo of being ineffective,
as well. They have certainly made statements about both the Sokagakkai
and Rev. Abe's Nichiren Shoshu. If the statements were inaccurate,
that's one thing, but if they were accurate, then you'd be better off
examining why such statements could be made about Nichiren Shoshu rather
than blaming Shoshinkai for making the statements. It is not surprising
that both sides have made use of their statements to attack the other,
but that reflects their own intellectual dishonesty. It is not a reason
to criticize Shoshinkai. I would suspect that Shoshinkai's presence has
affected both the actions of Nichiren Shoshu and the Sokagakkai, perhaps
restraining them to some extent, but that's my opinion. Your reference
to the "withdrawal of the Shoshinkai priests" reaches new levels of
absurdity. They did not withdraw; they were kicked out by Rev. Abe. And
the spies, (that you declined to mention when you said, "he has
successfully purged the sect of the evil influence of Ikeda") are there
by his grace, as well. Shoshinkai has not, to the best of my knowledge,
attacked the High Priesthood; they have criticized Rev. Abe. I hope you
can appreciate the difference.
---------------------------------------------------------------Roy:
Artie previously shared with me some Oko lectures by Rev. Tono, whose
knowledge of Buddhism I respect. It pains me that such talent and
dedication are being largely wasted when the only thing apparently left
is a quarrel with a High Priest who has in fact accomplished every thing
that the Shoshinkai initially hoped to accomplish. Apart from that, it
appears that the Shoshinkai has no remaining meaningful raison d'etre.
It also appears to be a tiny sect with little hope of becoming a serious
movement for true kosen-rufu. I would hope that the Shoshinkai priests
and lay believers would seriously consider all of the events of the last
twenty years as they may reflect the Daishonin's intent, and not become
eternally bogged down in an increasingly ancient dispute.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
It pains me as well, but I question whether his efforts are "wasted", as
you suggest. I would take issue with your assertion that Rev. Abe has
accomplished all that Shoshinkai set out to accomplish. If anything, I
think he has established a few more teachings to debunk, and a few more
misimpressions to correct. As for the "raison d'etre" of the Shoshinkai,
you seem to keep forgetting that the Shoshinkai was not "created" out of
thin air. It was created by priests who were excommunicated by your Rev.
Abe. Priests who decided that they didn't want to betray their oaths by
abandoning their lifes' work. The Shoshinkai priests are incapable of
un-excommunicating themselves. If there is to be a reunification of any
type, it would seem obvious that the first move is up to the party that
removed them from Nichiren Shoshu in the first place. Precisely because
they reflect on the Daishonin's intent, I suspect (and this is only my
opinion) that the Shoshinkai priests would not return in the absence of
significant changes from today's Nichiren Shoshu. In comparison to other
disputes within the history of Nichiren Shoshu, this one is far from
ancient. I personally do not believe that it will be resolved absent the
death, resignation, or apology of Rev. Abe.
Artie
Roy Boyce
>
>Roy Boyce wrote:
>> I have a Shoshinkai publication published in 1982 (the English
>> version in 1984) which states that Nikken Shonin went around the
>> Head Temple saying that he had been designated as Nittatsu
>> Shonin's successor prior to Nittatsu Shonin's death (unfortunately, I
>> don't have it with me right now so I can't quote it directly). The
>> publication's criticism is based on the fact that the usual formalities
>> attendant to the transfer were never completed, as basically outlined
>> by Artie.
>I'll have to withhold comment until I see this publication (which, I guess means
>until you dig it up). This is not a story that I have heard. Further, there were
>things published here under the name of Shoshinkai that may not accurately
>reflect
>the beliefs of the Shoshinkai priests. If you can get me a copy, I'll see what I
>can
>find out.
The document is entitled "Guide to True Faith -- Answers to Questions of Soka
Gakkai Members." The author is identified as the Shoshin-kai Committee. It was
written in Japanese in 1982. The English version was translated, edited and
published by the Nichiren Shoshu Myoshinji Danto, Overseas in June 1984. The
address is given as 147-25 68th Road, Flushing NY 11367. I received it from a
former Shoshinkai member who returned to Nichiren Shoshu. At p. 18, the
pamphlet states: "While High Priest Nittatsu Shonin was still alive Nikken Abe
constantly claimed that he had received Kechimyaku Sojo." It goes on to
question this because he had not been appointed Daigakuto. However, my point is
that if Nikken Shonin had been erroneously making this claim while Nittatsu
Shonin was still alive, it is probable that Nittatsu Shonin would have heard
about it and disavowed it.
I do not purport to know what happened. I don't think you do either. However,
there is at least the one piece of evidence noted above that Nikken Shonin had
received the kechimyaku and you have cited nothing that, for me, would warrant
going against that.
>> Obviously, there could be no more fundamental slander than
>> fraudently usurping the position of High Priest. If one has any faith
>> in the Dai-Gohonzon, one would expect that such a person's reign
>> would be short and end miserably. However, Nikken Shonin has
>> been High Priest for nearly 20 years during what is certainly one of
>> the most critical periods in the history of Nichiren Shoshu. Moreover,
>> he has successfully purged the sect of the evil influence of Ikeda. He
>> has set it back on the course of the Founder, a goal he set at the time
>> he became High Priest. The facts suggest that the Daishonin has
>> validated Nikken Shonin as the leader of the sect during this crucial
>> period.
>
>I think it's quite dangerous for ignorant common mortals, such as we two, to try
>to
>predict the precise manner in which the consequences of the law of cause and
>effect
>will manifest themselves. One could certainly argue that Mr. Ikeda's "reign" has
>been
>neither short nor miserable,
Much to his chagrin, Ikeda was not the High Priest.
> and I don't know of any Shoshinkai priest who begrudges
>his decision to disobey Rev. Abe.
No doubt. However, the practical effect of their actions has been almost
consistently beneficial to the Gakkai, which now even endorses their attacks on
the legitimacy of the High Priest.
>Rev. Abe has certainly seen the sect through some
>turbulent times, but I don't know that the sect has emerged for the better. He
>excommunicated 1/3 of the sect's priests (The most devoted ones, I would argue);
>he
>has seen a number of other priests leave of their own free will. I don't know
>how you
>can say that he has purged the sect of the influence of Mr. Ikeda when there
>remain
>ordained Soka Gakkai members of questionable loyalty, who Rev. Abe brought into
>the
>priesthood.
Who in particular.
> And, I honestly don't think that he has set the sect back on the
>Founder's course. For one, I know that Shoshinkai priests contest a number of
>points
>of Rev. Abe's exposition of doctrine, which they believe are contrary to the
>traditional teachings of Nichiren Shoshu. Unfortunately, these points are well
>beyond
>my level of understanding, and much of the source material is in Japanese.
>Second,
>Rev. Abe's excommunication of Mr. Ikeda, and then the Sokagakkai seemed to have
>a lot
>more to do with their attitude to him, than with the myriads of doctrinal
>distortions
>that preceeded his term and continued, throughout it. (That, and the Ode to
>Joy.) As
>an outside observer, it appeared to me that Soka Gakkai was free to do and
>expound
>whatever they wanted, so long as they paid lip service to Rev. Abe. It was only
>when
>they began to openly criticize and belittle him that the trouble began.
This is the sort of scurrilous speculation one would expect to find in the pages
of the World Tribune. You overlook first of all that Nikken Shonin required
Ikeda to make a personal apology in 1980. This was very much not what Daisaku
wanted to do. It hit him right in the ego. Further, while the claim is made
that Nikken Shonin went against the intent of Nittatsu Shonin, I have seen no
evidence to support this. It is purely speculative whether Nittatsu Shonin
would have handled the Gakkai affair in a different manner.
I have no doubt as to the sincerity of the Shoshinkai priest. However, as far
as I can see, they have never accomplished anything apart from unwittingly
giving aid and comfort to the Gakkai. Today, they appear to be largely
irrelevant.
Incidentally, the former Shoshinkai member I mentioned above says that Rev. Tono
is not technically a Shoshinkai priest because they refused to accept him.
Perhaps you could clarify whether this is correct and, if so, what sect Rev.
Tono, and presumably you, in fact belong to.
That's all I have time for right now.
Roy
Reginald Carpenter
the subject/title to: The Heritage of the Law/ Specific Transfer book!"
Re: Heritage of the Law/ Specific Transfer book!*
Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001, 10:12pm
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
A quickie for Artie from Stoney. Re. "Myodog" posting on 4/19/01 -
11:20am CDT+5. I changed the subject/title to: Re: Heritage of the Law/
Specific Transfer book!*
******************************************************
Re: Frightening
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 11:20am (CDT+5) From: myo...@bellatlantic.net
(Artie)
Cody wrote:
"Artie" <myo...@bellatlantic.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:3ADE3F34...@bellatlantic.net...
Cody wrote:
[Snipped mess-age from beginning to below]
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sr. Cody,
As much as I hate to say it, I think I'm more informed than you on the
subject. When I've asked this group on what basis they believe Rev. Abe
to be the legitimate successor to Nittatsu Shonin, you replied that you
believed it because no one else claimed to be the successor.
Stone Eagle replied that there was a book somewhere where Rev. Abe's
name was entered after Nittatsu Shonin's death based on his instructions
prior to his death. <--- #1.
1) RC comments: Well, I must say, "thank you," and verify that you have
very accurately quoted Stone Eagle (me), Artie you old Myodoggie!
Because, I guess you must have changed your old flea-collar just like I
told you to - "Wonders Never Cease To Be"! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Somehow, this book never came up in any of the court cases. And that's
about that. <--- #2.
2) RC comments: Because, "somehow," [that] book never came Up in any of
the court cases," because the Nichiren Shoshu never needed it in any
court case, and that sorry-ass Shoshinkai NUTgroup never wanted it to
show Up - it'd be against them in a court case!
Duh, Artie you old Myodoggie - FOOL?! LOL.
So, we agree - "that's about that" - case closed! LOL. WorldPeace! }
: < { 0
--------------------------------------------------------------
[Snipped the rest of Myodoggie's mess-age with a "pooper scooper! LOL.]
Artie
Roy,
First, my apologies for the delay. It took some time to get materials, and there have
been a lot of intervening issues. I did not find the pamphlet in my own files, but a
friend dug up a copy for me. I have browsed it:
- Although authorship is listed as "The Shoshinkai Committee", it is my understanding
that this is a product of Myoshinji Temple and its priest, Rev. Yamaguchi. It was
translated by his temple members here, whose translations experience and skills are
open to question. While many of the points made may be consistent with Shoshinkai
positions, it is not a sanctioned representation of Shoshinkai's position, much as
Rev. Tono's pamphlet which, while the work of a Nichiren Shoshu priest, did not speak
for the sect as a whole.
- I must complement you on finding one sentence in the whole document to hang your
hat on. Somehow you managed to ignore the rest of the document, including the
preceding section about Nichijun Shonin's guidance regarding the Kechimyaku.
- With regard to the specific statement, I have never heard this story before, or
seen it in any other place. I have asked Rev. Tono and he is not familiar with this
claim either. His and my understanding is that Rev. Abe did not make his claim to the
High Priesthood until some time after Nittatsu Shonin's death (I believe it was two
days, or so). This reported claim was certainly was not mentioned in the (still
unanswered) questions that the Shoshinkai priests addressed to Rev. Abe.
- I do find your view of this "evidence" to be somewhat strange. Even if we assume
that Rev. Abe did make such claims, I could just as easily (and maybe more
convincingly) argue that if priests refused to take Rev. Abe's claim seriously, he
(allegedly Nittatsu Shonin's designated successor and closest disciple) would likely
have gone back to High Priest worried that such doubts would continue when he assumed
the High Priesthood. "Please let them know. Please make an announcement; appoint me
Gakuto, or at least Noke; say something. Otherwise, they will continue to have
doubts." And, as we know, Nittatsu Shonin took no overt action. I find this scenario
at least as convincing as yours.
- If this report is accurate, it says a lot about Rev. Abe. What kind of a man, a
disciple, a priest would go around publicly announcing matters that Nittatsu Shonin
did not see fit to announce? If Nittatsu Shonin, who held responsibility for naming a
successor and transferring the lineage had not chosen to name his successor, or make
his choice public, who was Rev. Abe to go around saying, "It's me!"?
Your logic confounds me. No, I don't know what happened, and you don't either. I do
know that the bylaws (Sections 14-2, 3, and 4 of the administrative bylaws of
Nichiren Shoshu) say that the successor should be selected from among the Noke, and
that Rev. Abe was not a Noke, either in April 1978, or at the time of Nittatsu
Shonin's death. He was than, and remained a Dai-Sozu, one significant step below
Noke. I do know that the designated successor is given the title of GakuTo, and Rev.
Abe was never given the title of GakuTo (which is higher than Noke). I do know that
the bylaws of Nichiren Shoshu which specified that a High Priest chose his successor
from among the Noke, and that he be given the title of GakuTo were promulgated during
Nittatsu Shonin's tenure. I do know that there was no public announcement, no
pronouncement, no nothing issued by Nittatsu Shonin to indicate that he had either
selected Rev. Abe or that he had transferred the Lineage to him. I know that none of
the formalities attendant the designation of a successor, or the transfer of the
Lineage took place with respect to Rev. Abe or any other priest. I know that the
source of the "evidence" you cited also cited 65th High Priest Nichijun Shonin's
admonition that the transfer of the Lineage should be open, precisely so that there
will be no doubt about its legitimacy. I know that Rev. Abe has consistently declined
to answer questions regarding the circumstances of his succession. I know that he has
provided no evidence to support his claim. You have provided one piece of anecdotal
evidence (subject to verification that that's even what the Japanese says and that
it's accurate) that Rev. Abe CLAIMED to have received the Lineage, and you have
provided a tortured line of reasoning that Nittatsu Shonin's failure to publicly
rebut that claim (whether it was made or not, whether, if it was made, he knew about
it or not) is EVIDENCE that the claim is correct. It's always hard to PROVE that a
purported event never happened, but I think that anyone objectively weighing the
evidence I've presented and that which you presented would decide that the case
against Rev. Abe is far more compelling.
>
> >> Obviously, there could be no more fundamental slander than
> >> fraudently usurping the position of High Priest. If one has any faith
> >> in the Dai-Gohonzon, one would expect that such a person's reign
> >> would be short and end miserably. However, Nikken Shonin has
> >> been High Priest for nearly 20 years during what is certainly one of
> >> the most critical periods in the history of Nichiren Shoshu. Moreover,
> >> he has successfully purged the sect of the evil influence of Ikeda. He
> >> has set it back on the course of the Founder, a goal he set at the time
> >> he became High Priest. The facts suggest that the Daishonin has
> >> validated Nikken Shonin as the leader of the sect during this crucial
> >> period.
> >
> >I think it's quite dangerous for ignorant common mortals, such as we two, to try
> >to
> >predict the precise manner in which the consequences of the law of cause and
> >effect
> >will manifest themselves. One could certainly argue that Mr. Ikeda's "reign" has
> >been
> >neither short nor miserable,
>
> Much to his chagrin, Ikeda was not the High Priest.
Well, he's not the High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu. He has certainly committed grave
slander, but shows no apparent ill effects.
I also note that you snipped my comment on the bizarre suggestion that anything that
has happened over the last 20+ years suggests that Nichiren Daishonin has "validated"
Rev. Abe as the leader of the sect. If you don't want to respond to it, you don't
have to, but if you're going to repeat the assertion, then please repeat that I think
it's ridiculous.
> > and I don't know of any Shoshinkai priest who begrudges
> >his decision to disobey Rev. Abe.
>
> No doubt. However, the practical effect of their actions has been almost
> consistently beneficial to the Gakkai, which now even endorses their attacks on
> the legitimacy of the High Priest.
>
That may be how it looks from your perspective, but I doubt that you'll find the
Gakkai cheering on the Shoshinkai. Shoshinkai has consistently pointed out the
slanders of both the Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu; you must just react to one more than
the other. As far as the attacks on the so-called legitimacy of the High Priest are
concerned, you should probably be more troubled that he has done nothing to refute
them, other than claiming the Daishonin's support.
> >Rev. Abe has certainly seen the sect through some
> >turbulent times, but I don't know that the sect has emerged for the better. He
> >excommunicated 1/3 of the sect's priests (The most devoted ones, I would argue);
> >he
> >has seen a number of other priests leave of their own free will. I don't know
> >how you
> >can say that he has purged the sect of the influence of Mr. Ikeda when there
> >remain
> >ordained Soka Gakkai members of questionable loyalty, who Rev. Abe brought into
> >the
> >priesthood.
>
> Who in particular.
>
I do not keep track of current Nichiren Shoshu priests. I'm certainly in no position
to name names. I believe that you do agree that Rev. Abe brought a number of adult
Gakkai members into the priesthood, and that at least some of them left when he
excommunicated the Gakkai, "telling tales of drunkenness and cruelty". I would ask
you whether you're confident that all the Gakkai loyalists among them left. A mole in
your enemy's camp is a tremendous asset; I would be surprised if the Gakkai pulled
out all their loyalists. What do you think?
Since you have apparently seen no evidence to suggest that Rev. Abe is not the
legitimate High Priest, it is not surprising that you also see no evidence that his
guidances were counter to those of Nittatsu Shonin. You can refer to Nittatsu
Shonin's April speech to the priesthood, his last public address, published on at
least one NS web site, or his January address to the Danto General Tozan (which I'll
be happy to furnish you, in both English and Japanese). The consistency is not
apparent to me. You can contrast the role of Mr. Ikeda during the final days of
Nittatsu Shonin's life to that under Rev. Abe. They were quite different. I'm sure
Mr. Ikeda didn't want to apologize, but if apology was the price he had to pay to
regain his former prominence, I'm sure he had no trouble swallowing his pride,
especially since he did not appear to have to modify his behavior. My suspicion is
that Rev. Abe needed that apology to show the Shoshinkai supporters that he was being
“tough” with Mr. Ikeda, that it had more to do with Shoshinkai than with Rev. Abe.
Since I think you've been around for a while, let me remind you of some of the
actions and teachings of the Gakkai, both before Nittatsu Shonin's death, and
afterwards.
- They denigrated the Gohonzon, giving it to virtually anyone with a pulse ("Have a
Gohonzon"). Read Reply to Nii-ama and contrast the Daishonin's caution in bestowing
the Gohonzon to the Gakkai's behavior.
- They taught that by chanting for your desires, you could attain Buddhahood.
- They taught that Human Revolution is the objective of Buddhist practice.
- When they taught about "faith", they taught that it meant to chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and do gongyo, and that "practice" meant to do Gakkai activities.
- They taught that of the 14 slanders, their members need only concern themselves
with the last 4.
- They mistranslated the first part of the 4th silent prayer, which should read “ …
and to fulfill my great wish (daigan) …”, not “ … and to fulfill my wishes …”
- To the extent that they taught that faith meant "belief", they taught that it meant
the belief that you could get what you wanted by chanting for it.
- They taught that during morning gongyo, one should focus concretely on your day's
activities.
- They taught that truly powerful Gongyo and Daimoku is performed at breakneck
speeds.
- They taught that Ushitora Gongyo could be performed for the fulfillment of
"difficult" wishes or the resolution of difficulties.
- They taught that Kosen-rufu means "World Peace".
- They taught that their members were all Bodhisattvas of the Earth.
- They gave primacy to the Daimoku among the Three Great Secret Laws.
- The taught that the completion of the Sho Hondo marked the completion of the Three
Great Secret Laws.
- They taught that Hon'in-myo meant "start fresh".
- They taught that if you followed an incorrect leader, you would be protected while
the leader would be punished.
- They taught that you could practice Buddhism while practicing another religion
("You don't have to give up Judaism to become a Buddhist. You can be a Jewish
Buddhist", said GMW).
- They taught that Itai Doshin meant uniting behind a leader.
- They taught that it was not necessary to believe, only to chant.
- They taught that Buddhism was something you could "add" to your life to make it
better.
- They characterized the Daishonin's Buddhism as his "philosophy" (and Mr. Ikeda as a
philosopher).
- They taught that the fulfillment of mundane prayers constituted "actual proof".
- They staged and encouraged participation in a myriad of "activities" that had
nothing to do with Buddhism, but characterized them as Buddhism.
- Add to this, the teaching of Ikeda is the Buddha, which Nittatsu Shonin discussed
in some depth in his April 1979 address to the priesthood, and the creation and
enshrinement of unauthorized wooden Honzons.
But when Rev. Abe addressed them, he made statements like:
“It can therefore be said that the directions and policies of the Soka Gakkai during
that period were extreme, to be sure, but I believe this happened out of eagerness to
realize Kosen-rufu, the will of Nichiren Daishonin, and was not a deviation caused by
any fundamentally evil intention.” and
“When I consider the faith, experience, and organizational management of the Soka
Gakkai, which are solidly based on the Gohonzon, and when I think of Honorary
President Ikeda’s leadership which has brought about the unprecedented shakubuku
result of seven million and eight hundred thousand households in Japan, as well as
his achievements for peace and culture worldwide, I believe the Soka Gakkai and
Honorary President Ikeda are, respectively, a very necessary organization and a very
necessary leader for global propagation in the future.” and
“For followers of the true teaching to criticize one another will make us an object
of contempt and ridicule by other sects and denominations, and, therefore, I think
such criticism in and of itself is a great hindrance to propagation.” and
“The standard for judging good and bad in Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism is whether
one faithfully follows, or slanderously opposes the supreme Law, the Myoho-renge-kyo,
to which the Buddha was enlightened, and the entity of the Law which was transmitted
to Bodhisattva Jogyo. To oppose the above is regarded as a great slander and a great
evil. Insofar as the Soka Gakkai is concerned, although it slightly departed from the
orthodoxy, it always remained a lay organization of Nichiren Shoshu and never forsook
faith in the Gohonzon. Rather, correcting its mistakes, the Soka Gakkai has pledged
to give even greater protection and service to the priesthood. Therefore, there is no
reason whatsoever to call its past actions a grave slander. The priests and lay
believers who share faith in the Gohonzon should not criticize or attack the Soka
Gakkai. If they do so, they commit a serious slander by acting against the
Daishonin’s precept of itai doshin and thus are slandering the Gohonzon as a result.”
Not only did he ignore, and not correct the everyday teachings of the Sokagakkai. He
required that overseas believers belong to it. Further, he ordered the priesthood not
to criticize the Sokagakkai, regardless of the slander they observed. To be sure,
Rev. Abe included passages in his speech about Sokagakkai correcting their errors,
but how much correcting was done? When, between 1981 and 1987 did Rev. Abe actually
remonstrate with the Gakkai and correct their mistaken teachings? You and I know that
the Gakkai's misrepresentation and oversimplification of the Daishonin's teachings
continued unabated during the '80s. It was only when the Sokagakkai began to speak
ill of Rev. Abe, himself, that the meetings, confrontations and warnings began. Those
actions were the beginning of the end for the Sokagakkai's relationship with Nichiren
Shoshu.
>
> I have no doubt as to the sincerity of the Shoshinkai priest. However, as far
> as I can see, they have never accomplished anything apart from unwittingly
> giving aid and comfort to the Gakkai. Today, they appear to be largely
> irrelevant.
Perhaps you cannot see as far as you think. The Shoshinkai priests have been pointing
out the slanders of the Soka Gakkai for over 20 years. They did so in the face of
Rev. Abe's admonishment, and they have continued to do so. "Aid and comfort" is a
phrase that suggests war and enemies. Shoshinkai's objective, from the start, has
been to correct the slander of the Soka Gakkai, not to "defeat" it. If there is
anyone who provided "aid and comfort" in the face of Shoshinkai's admonitions, it is
Rev. Abe, who provided nine years worth. I'm not sure what your standard of relevance
is. In the early 1900s, some might have considered Nichiren Shoshu irrelevant, when
compared to Nichiren Shu. Priests and scholars of Buddhism who, based on the
Daishonin's teachings and the traditional teachings of Nichiren Shoshu, attempt to
illuminate the true teaching and lead others to it are never irrelevant.
> Incidentally, the former Shoshinkai member I mentioned above says that Rev. Tono
> is not technically a Shoshinkai priest because they refused to accept him.
> Perhaps you could clarify whether this is correct and, if so, what sect Rev.
> Tono, and presumably you, in fact belong to.
You forgot to ask when I had stopped beating my wife. This person does not know what
he or she is talking about. There were Shoshinkai priests from Japan in attendance
for our temple opening, and they have come from time to time since. It is my
understanding that Rev. Tono is listed in the Shoshinkai directory as the Shoshinkai
priest for America. (I do not read Japanese.) The Shoshinkai web site is
www.fujimon.or.jp. It is also all in Japanese, so I can't tell you what it says, but
if you want to look there, or correspond with the webmaster, please be my guest. Rest
assured, Rev. Tono and I are Shoshinkai
> That's all I have time for right now.
>
> Roy
By the way, there were parts of my response that you snipped without any indication.
I have pointed out one place; I honestly haven't checked whether there are others. If
you chose not to respond to particular statements, I believe the record would be more
accurate if you leave those statements in your response without comment. That is how
I have treated your response.
Artie
Christopher H. Holte
positions on a number of subject. Basically he boils their charges
down to the following:
1 - They denigrated the Gohonzon, giving it to virtually anyone with a
pulse
2 - They taught that by chanting for your desires, you could attain
Buddhahood.
3 - They taught that Human Revolution is the objective of Buddhist
practice.
4 - When they taught about "faith", they taught that it meant to chant
5 Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and do gongyo, and that "practice" meant to do
Gakkai activities.
5 - They taught that of the 14 slanders, their members need only
concern themselves with the last 4.
should read “ …and to fulfill my great wish (daigan)
…”, not “ … and to fulfill my
wishes …” - To the extent that they taught that faith
meant "belief", they taught that it meant the belief that you could
get what you wanted by chanting for it.
concretely on your day's activities.
breakneck speeds.
9 - They taught that Ushitora Gongyo could be performed for the
fulfillment of "difficult" wishes or the resolution of difficulties.
11 - They taught that their members were all Bodhisattvas of the
Earth.
12 - They gave primacy to the Daimoku among the Three Great Secret
Laws.
13 - The taught that the completion of the Sho Hondo marked the
completion of the Three Great Secret Laws.
15 - They taught that if you followed an incorrect leader, you would
be protected while the leader would be punished.
another religion ("You don't have to give up Judaism to become a
Buddhist. You can be a Jewish Buddhist", said GMW).
18 - They taught that it was not necessary to believe, only to chant.
19 - They taught that Buddhism was something you could "add" to your
life to make it better.
(and Mr. Ikeda as a philosopher).
"actual proof".
22 - They staged and encouraged participation in a myriad of
"activities" that had nothing to do with Buddhism, but characterized
them as Buddhism.
Shonin discussed in some depth in his April 1979 address to the
priesthood, and the creation and enshrinement of unauthorized wooden
Honzons.
> But when Rev. Abe addressed them, he made statements like:
>
>
> “When I consider the faith, experience, and organizational
management of the Soka Gakkai, which are solidly based on the
leadership which has brought about the unprecedented shakubuku result
of seven million and eight hundred thousand households in Japan, as
well as his achievements for peace and culture worldwide, I believe
the Soka Gakkai and Honorary President Ikeda are, respectively, a very
necessary organization and a very necessary leader for global
teaching to criticize one another will make us an object of contempt
and ridicule by other sects and denominations, and, therefore, I think
such criticism in and of itself is a great hindrance to
in Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism is whether one faithfully
follows, or slanderously opposes the supreme Law, the Myoho-renge-kyo,
to which the Buddha was enlightened, and the entity of the Law which
was transmitted to Bodhisattva Jogyo. To oppose the above is regarded
as a great slander and a great evil. Insofar as the Soka Gakkai is
concerned, although it slightly departed from the orthodoxy, it always
remained a lay organization of Nichiren Shoshu and never forsook faith
in the Gohonzon. Rather, correcting its mistakes, the Soka Gakkai has
pledged to give even greater protection and service to the priesthood.
Therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to call its past actions a
grave slander.
>
the Sokagakkai. He required that overseas believers belong to it.
Further, he ordered the priesthood not to criticize the Sokagakkai,
regardless of the slander they observed. To be sure, Rev. Abe included
passages in his speech about Sokagakkai correcting their errors, but
how much correcting was done? When, between 1981 and 1987 did Rev. Abe
actually remonstrate with the Gakkai and correct their mistaken
teachings? You and I know that the Gakkai's misrepresentation and
oversimplification of the Daishonin's teachings continued unabated
during the '80s. It was only when the Sokagakkai began to speak ill of
Rev. Abe, himself, that the meetings, confrontations and warnings
began. Those actions were the beginning of the end for the
Sokagakkai's relationship with Nichiren Shoshu.
The Shoshinkai priests had some severe criticisms of the Gakkai's
behavior during the 60's through the 80's that were not to be
suppressed by an admonition that people be quiet. As always happens,
they weren't listened to and so where they were right was only
confirmed later when the overt split occurred, and where they were
wrong was never debated.
The problem is that both the priesthood and the Gakkai seemed to share
the view that "Itai Doshin" means that one should "follow a leader"
even if he is wrong and that the "Kechimyaku" implies that the
leadership is never wrong. None of them were willing to acknowledge
that a group of people can be "loyal" even as they disagree on
something. As Artie says:
"Aid and comfort" is a phrase that suggests war and enemies.
Shoshinkai's objective, from the start, has been to correct the
slander of the Soka Gakkai, not to "defeat" it."
The problem with the "split" between the Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu is
that both sides think in the terminology and thought processes of
"war" when they should be doing shakubuku and honest debate. There was
no logical reason to excommunicate the Shoshinkai for asking
questions, but it was wrong for them to not accept the outcome when
Nikken became de-facto high priest. Who else was available? Who else
wanted the Job? The problem was that there was no way to "honestly
disagree" and remain a member of Nichiren Shoshu. This attitude makes
real and honest disagreements worse by the attitude of papering over
differences in the name of unity, followed by near warfare when that
imposed "unity" was broken. Buddhism can stand huge differences in
understanding (this was the point of the Buddha's blind man and the
elephant analogy), what it cannot stand is warfare, dishonesty, and
block politics in it's name (the blind men fighting over what is the
elephant).
A lot of these "fights" make no sense at all. Shakubuku is not a
synonym for warfare, slander or political behavior. The Shoshinkai
issues should have been openly debated and each party agree to
understand each others views and then arrive at the truth or agree to
disagree. No one should have been made to agree with everything for
the sake of a "fake" unity.
Chris
Reginald Carpenter
CDT+5. I changed the subject/title to: Re: For Artie, the Anonymous
Cowardly, UNhouse-broken MyoDoggie!*
1) First of all, your posting was so doggoned messy, long, INcompetent &
INcomprehensible, that I had to reformat & rewrite the entire mess-age,
just to be able to read it and discern exactly which parts of it were
Roy Boyce's message and which were your own Shoshinkai, nka.
Sho-Stinky-Kai, lap dog, soggy doggy droppings or lap pooch poopings -
Artie, you old Anonymous, Cowardly, UNhousebroken Myodoggie! ROTFL.
2) So, evidently, the Right Reverend "Sunny Bono" Tono, aka. "Jessie the
Messie Jackson Tono", your Dog Pound master, just has NOT been able to
teach an old, flea bitten dog like you the truth, or any new LIES or
tricks, in the past 15-20 years that you've been his favorite lap pooch
& dog-ass member of his Shoshinkai, aka. the "Sho' (nuff) Stinky Kai"
Kennel; and he's NOT even been able to house-break you where & where NOT
to poop or drop your doggie business & messiness - Artie, you
Sho-Stinky-Kai MyoDoggie! ROTFL.
3) So, since I have already corrected & refuted all of the pertinent
parts of your arrogant & ignorant, LYING-ASS, low life conditioned,
DUMB-ASS, anti-Nichiren Shoshu, GRUDGE & HATE mess-age when you first
dog-trotted out this BIG, old, soggy, pile of DIATRIBE & doggy GRUDGE &
HATE mess-age before, then I will just give my Webtv "Mad Mozilla"
browser a rest after dealing with all of your DUMB-ASS, Sho' nuff Stinky
Kai, soggy, DIATRIBE & doggy messiness in your latest, but NOT the
greatest, new, anti-Nichiren Shoshu, GRUDGE & HATE mess-age, which is so
doggoned, absurdly long & shaggy looking, that I will have to take it
down to a veterinary dog groomer to cut it first before I can "cut &
paste it," and "paste" your Anonymous & Cowardly, UNhouse-broken,
MyoDoggie DUMB-ASS right along with it too - Artie, you old, still flea
bitten MyoDoggie! ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
******************************************************
For Roy Boyce (and NS)
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Jun 1, 2001, 2:04am (CDT+5)
From: myo...@bellatlantic.net (Artie)
Roy Boyce wrote:
In article <3AE36C85...@bellatlantic.net>, Artie says ...
Roy Boyce wrote:
I have a Shoshinkai publication published in 1982 (the English version
in 1984) which states that Nikken Shonin went around the Head Temple
saying that he had been designated as Nittatsu Shonin's successor prior
to Nittatsu Shonin's death (unfortunately, I don't have it with me right
now so I can't quote it directly).
The publication's criticism is based on the fact that the usual
formalities attendant to the transfer were never completed, as basically
outlined by Artie.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
I'll have to withhold comment until I see this publication (which, I
guess means until you dig it up). This is not a story that I have heard.
Further, there were things published here under the name of Shoshinkai
that may not accurately reflect the beliefs of the Shoshinkai priests.
If you can get me a copy, I'll see what I can
find out.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
The document is entitled "Guide to True Faith -- Answers to Questions of
Soka Gakkai Members." The author is identified as the Shoshin-kai
Committee. It was written in Japanese in 1982. The English version was
translated, edited and published by the Nichiren Shoshu Myoshinji Danto,
Overseas in June 1984. The address is given as 147-25 68th Road,
Flushing NY 11367. I received it from a former Shoshinkai member who
returned to Nichiren Shoshu. At p. 18, the pamphlet states:
"While High Priest Nittatsu Shonin was still alive, Nikken Abe
constantly claimed that he had received Kechimyaku Sojo." It goes on to
question this because he had not been appointed Daigakuto. However, my
point is that if Nikken Shonin had been erroneously making this claim
while Nittatsu Shonin was still alive, it is probable that Nittatsu
Shonin would have heard about it and disavowed it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Roy,
First, my apologies for the delay. It took some time to get materials,
and there have been a lot of intervening issues. I did not find the
pamphlet in my own files, but a friend dug up a copy for me. I have
browsed it:
- Although authorship is listed as "The Shoshinkai Committee", it is my
understanding that this is a product of Myoshinji Temple and its priest,
Rev. Yamaguchi. It was translated by his temple members here, whose
translations experience and skills are open to question.
While many of the points made may be consistent with Shoshinkai
positions, it is not a sanctioned representation of Shoshinkai's
position, much as Rev. Tono's pamphlet which, while the work of a
Nichiren Shoshu priest, did not speak for the sect as a whole.
- I must complement [sic] you on finding one sentence in the whole
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
It is probably true that the usual formalities were not completed due to
the circumstances surrounding the passing of Nittatsu Shonin.
However, while observance of the formalities is important, I do not
think Nittatsu Shonin's intent should have been defeated merely because
the circumstances made their observance impossible.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Again, there is no indication that this was Nittatsu Shonin's intent,
let alone that
the formalities were not completed due to the circumstances surrounding
his death.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
I do not purport to know what happened. I don't think you do either.
However, there is at least the one piece of evidence noted above that
Nikken Shonin had received the kechimyaku and you have cited nothing
that, for me, would warrant going against that.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
Obviously, there could be no more fundamental slander than fraudently
usurping the position of High Priest. If one has any faith in the
Dai-Gohonzon, one would expect that such a person's reign would be short
and end miserably. However, Nikken Shonin has been High Priest for
nearly 20 years during what is certainly one of the most critical
periods in the history of Nichiren Shoshu. Moreover, he has successfully
purged the sect of the evil influence of Ikeda. He has set it back on
the course of the Founder, a goal he set at the time he became High
Priest. The facts suggest that the Daishonin has validated Nikken Shonin
as the leader of the sect during this crucial period.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
I think it's quite dangerous for ignorant common mortals, such as we
two, to try to
predict the precise manner in which the consequences of the law of cause
and effect
will manifest themselves. One could certainly argue that Mr. Ikeda's
"reign" has been
neither short nor miserable.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
Much to his chagrin, Ikeda was not the High Priest.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Well, he's not the High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu. He has certainly
committed grave slander, but shows no apparent ill effects.
I also note that you snipped my comment on the bizarre suggestion that
anything that has happened over the last 20+ years suggests that
Nichiren Daishonin has "validated" Rev. Abe as the leader of the sect.
If you don't want to respond to it, you don't have to, but if you're
going to repeat the assertion, then please repeat that I think it's
ridiculous.
And I don't know of any Shoshinkai priest who begrudges his decision to
disobey Rev. Abe.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
No doubt. However, the practical effect of their actions has been almost
consistently beneficial to the Gakkai, which now even endorses their
attacks on the legitimacy of the High Priest.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
That may be how it looks from your perspective, but I doubt that you'll
find the Gakkai cheering on the Shoshinkai. Shoshinkai has consistently
pointed out the slanders of both the Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu; you
must just react to one more than the other. As far as the attacks on the
so-called legitimacy of the High Priest are concerned, you should
probably be more troubled that he has done nothing to refute them, other
than claiming the Daishonin's support.
Rev. Abe has certainly seen the sect through some turbulent times, but I
don't know that the sect has emerged for the better. He excommunicated
1/3 of the sect's priests (The most devoted ones, I would argue); he
has seen a number of other priests leave of their own free will. I don't
know how you
can say that he has purged the sect of the influence of Mr. Ikeda when
there remain
ordained Soka Gakkai members of questionable loyalty, who Rev. Abe
brought into the priesthood.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
Who in particular[?]
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
This is the sort of scurrilous speculation one would expect to find in
the pages of the World Tribune. You overlook first of all that Nikken
Shonin required Ikeda to make a personal apology in 1980. This was very
much not what Daisaku wanted to do. It hit him right in the ego.
Further, while the claim is made that Nikken Shonin went against the
intent of Nittatsu Shonin, I have seen no evidence to support this. It
is purely speculative whether Nittatsu Shonin would have handled the
Gakkai affair in a different manner.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
and ...
"When I consider the faith, experience, and organizational management of
the Soka Gakkai, which are solidly based on the Gohonzon, and when I
think of Honorary President Ikeda's leadership which has brought about
the unprecedented shakubuku result of seven million and eight hundred
thousand households in Japan, as well as his achievements for peace and
culture worldwide, I believe the Soka Gakkai and Honorary President
Ikeda are, respectively, a very necessary organization and a very
necessary leader for global propagation in the future."
and ...
"For followers of the true teaching to criticize one another will make
us an object of contempt and ridicule by other sects and denominations,
and, therefore, I think such criticism in and of itself is a great
hindrance to propagation."
and ...
"The standard for judging good and bad in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism
is whether one faithfully follows, or slanderously opposes the supreme
Law, the Myoho-renge-kyo, to which the Buddha was enlightened, and the
entity of the Law which was transmitted to Bodhisattva Jogyo. To oppose
the above is regarded as a great slander and a great evil. Insofar as
the Soka Gakkai is concerned, although it slightly departed from the
orthodoxy, it always remained a lay organization of Nichiren Shoshu and
never forsook faith in the Gohonzon.
Rather, correcting its mistakes, the Soka Gakkai has pledged to give
even greater protection and service to the priesthood.
Therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to call its past actions a
grave slander. The priests and lay believers who share faith in the
Gohonzon should not criticize or attack the Soka Gakkai. If they do so,
they commit a serious slander by acting against the Daishonin's precept
of itai doshin and thus are slandering the Gohonzon as a result."
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Not only did he ignore, and not correct the everyday teachings of the
Sokagakkai. He required that overseas believers belong to it.
Further, he ordered the priesthood not to criticize the Sokagakkai,
regardless of the slander they observed. To be sure, Rev. Abe included
passages in his speech about Sokagakkai correcting their errors, but how
much correcting was done? When, between 1981 and 1987 did Rev. Abe
actually remonstrate with the Gakkai and correct their mistaken
teachings? You and I know that the Gakkai's misrepresentation and
oversimplification of the Daishonin's teachings continued unabated
during the '80s. It was only when the Sokagakkai began to speak ill of
Rev. Abe, himself, that the meetings, confrontations and warnings began.
Those actions were the beginning of the end for the Sokagakkai's
relationship with Nichiren Shoshu.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
I have no doubt as to the sincerity of the Shoshinkai priest[s].
However, as far as I can see, they have never accomplished anything
apart from unwittingly giving aid and comfort to the Gakkai. Today, they
appear to be largely irrelevant.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Perhaps you cannot see as far as you think.
The Shoshinkai priests have been pointing out the slanders of the Soka
Gakkai for over 20 years. They did so in the face of Rev. Abe's
admonishment, and they have continued to do so. "Aid and comfort" is a
phrase that suggests war and enemies. Shoshinkai's objective, from the
start, has been to correct the slander of the Soka Gakkai, not to
"defeat" it. If there is anyone who provided "aid and comfort" in the
face of Shoshinkai's admonitions, it is Rev. Abe, who provided nine
years worth. I'm not sure what your standard of relevance is. In the
early 1900s, some might have considered Nichiren Shoshu irrelevant, when
compared to Nichiren Shu. Priests and scholars of Buddhism who, based on
the Daishonin's teachings and the traditional teachings of Nichiren
Shoshu, attempt to illuminate the true teaching and lead others to it
are never irrelevant.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
Incidentally, the former Shoshinkai member I mentioned above says that
Rev. Tono is not technically a Shoshinkai priest because they refused to
accept him. Perhaps you could clarify whether this is correct and, if
so, what sect Rev. Tono, and presumably you, in fact belong to.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
You forgot to ask when I had stopped beating my wife. This person does
not know what he or she is talking about. There were Shoshinkai priests
from Japan in attendance for our temple opening, and they have come from
time to time since. It is my understanding that Rev. Tono is listed in
the Shoshinkai directory as the Shoshinkai priest for America. (I do not
read Japanese.) The Shoshinkai web site is www.fujimon.or.jp. It is also
all in Japanese, so I can't tell you what it says, but if you want to
look there, or correspond with the webmaster, please be my guest. Rest
assured, Rev. Tono and I are Shoshinkai.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
That's all I have time for right now.
Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
By the way, there were parts of my response that you snipped without any
indication. I have pointed out one place; I honestly haven't checked
whether there are others. If you chose not to respond to particular
statements, I believe the record would be more accurate if you leave
those statements in your response without comment. That is how I have
treated your response.
Artie
john petry
"Christopher H. Holte" <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2e8482e1.01060...@posting.google.com...
<<<<The Shoshinkai priests had some severe criticisms of the Gakkai's
behavior during the 60's through the 80's that were not to be suppressed by
an admonition that people be quiet. As always happens, they weren't listened
to and so where they were right was only confirmed later when the overt
split occurred, and where they were wrong was never debated.>>>>>>>>
The interesting thing about this is that when I was recently in Japan I was
told that the Shoshinkai have changed their name and have commenced a very
strong propagation campaign. They are making very serious inroads into the
NST and the SGI and now number well over 500,000 members. Most of this
growth has occurred since the split between the SGI and the NST and the
group seems to be on its way to becoming a major player in Japan.
Cody
"john petry" <jonp...@mindspring.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:9f8htv$krr$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
Key words from John´s post:
I was told
seems.
Got any facts, John?
Cody
john petry
"Cody" <lamadreque...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZBRR6.617$57....@newsr01.ono.com...
I was on the train from Minobu with one of the reporters from the Japanese
language daily Nichirenshu Shimbun, and two priests. In addition at Minobu,
I had been speaking on various issues with the gentleman who in charge of
overseas propagation for the Nichiren Shu. The topic came up peripherally
in our discussions. I am not mentioning names here because I don't want
people attacking people who do not post or read here.
Reginald Carpenter
CDT+5.
After reformatting, rewriting & reposting his entire MyoDoggie messed Up
mess-age, which is so absurdly long that it takes nine (9) pages to
print it, this response is to page #s 1 & 2 of it.
******************************************************
For Roy Boyce (and NS)
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Jun 1, 2001, 2:04am (CDT+5)
From: myo...@bellatlantic.net (Artie)
Roy Boyce wrote:
In article <3AE36C85...@bellatlantic.net>, Artie says ...
Roy Boyce wrote:
I have a Shoshinkai publication published in 1982 (the English version
in 1984) which states that Nikken Shonin went around the Head Temple
saying that he had been designated as Nittatsu Shonin's successor prior
to Nittatsu Shonin's death (unfortunately, I don't have it with me right
now so I can't quote it directly).
The publication's criticism is based on the fact that the usual
formalities attendant to the transfer were never completed, as basically
outlined by Artie.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
>>> I'll have to withhold comment until I see this publication (which, I
guess means until you dig it up). This is not a story that I have heard.
<--- #1.
1) RC comments: That is No-thing [Zen] but that arrogant & ignorant, low
life conditioned, "Artie" the Anonymous & Cowardly MyoDoggie doing his
"Artie Shuffle"! LOL.
Because, "Artie" has commented & made that above very same kind of
statement many times before on Arbn himself, "the ... criticism ...
based on the fact that the usual formalities attendant to the transfer
were never completed, as basically outlined by Artie."
The only difference is that this time, Roy Boyce "has the goods" -
documentary evidence - that old, sorry-ass Artie the MyoDoggie has been
using all along in his anti-Nichiren Shoshu GRUDGE & HATE mess-ages that
he's been fed all these years in his dog chow by his Dog Pound master, a
Shoshinkai, nka. Sho' nuff Stinky Kai priest, nka. the Right Reverend
"Sunny Bono" Tono, aka. "Jessie the Messie Jackson" Tono! ROTFL.
So, Artie the MyoDoggie is really doing No-thing [Zen] but LYING &
shuffling; because he has seen & hear EVERYthing that those Shoshinkai/
ShoStinkyKai priests have even said or written to promote their GRUDGE &
HATRED against the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin and the Nichiren
Shoshu Priesthood because they had all been justifiably EXPELLED from it
by the year 1982!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Further, there were things published here under the name of
Shoshinkai that may not accurately reflect the beliefs of the Shoshinkai
priests. <--- #2.
2) RC comments: See above #1.
That is No-thing [Zen] but Artie's artful Myodoggie dodging & alibi-ing
and attempting to make a DISclaimer already about something that he's
pretending that he's never seen, and CONTRADICTing himself by commenting
Upon it when he just wrote & I quote above that, "I'll have to withhold
comment until I see the publication."! "What a DOG", Artie, you old
flea-bitten MyoDoggie! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> If you can get me a copy, I'll see what I can find out. <--- #3.
3) RC comments: "Gee whiz"! All you have to do is get your old,
flea-bitten sorry-ass off of his lap and ask your dog pound kennel, KULT
master, the Right Reverend Tono, to get out a copy of his old SLANDERous
publication for you to eat in your dog chow at feeding time - Artie, you
old lap MyoDoggie! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roy:
>>> The document is entitled "Guide to True Faith -- Answers to
Questions of Soka Gakkai Members." The author is identified as the
Shoshin-kai Committee. It was written in Japanese in 1982. The English
version was translated, edited and published by the Nichiren Shoshu
Myoshinji Danto, Overseas in June 1984. <--- #4.
4) RC comments: "Oh boy," Roy! LOL.
A clarification is really needed here. The "Nichiren Shoshu Myoshin-ji
Danto, Overseas in June 1984" were supposed to be Japanese speaking
members who claimed themselves to be "direct temple believers" or
supporters of the brand new Myoshin-ji temple which had just opened in
1984; but they were really affiliated with, and supporters of, the
Shoshinkai priests in 1984!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The address is given as 147-25 68th Road, Flushing NY 11367. <---
#5.
5) RC comments: For further clarification, that is/ was NOT the address
of Myoshin-ji temple near San Francisco, CA!
That was (probably) the address where the Right Reverend "Sunny Bono"
Tono first came back to New York state from Japan; and he "setUp shop"
there to start his very own Shoshinkai/ Sho' nuff Stinky Kai temple in
1982 after he had been recalled to Japan when he was replaced by the
Nichiren Shoshu Head Temple, Taiseki-ji, as the very first (1st) chief
priest of the "New York temple" in 1979-80, as it first was called, by
the next chief priest, Rev. Shiina.
And, that is the real reason why he, Tono, was EXPELLED from the NS
priesthood - he left Japan to return to live in the USA without its'
approval.
IOW - in military terms, "Sunny Bono" Tono just went "AWOL" - Absent
With Out Leave! ROTFL.
Therefore, it was the Right Reverend "Sunny Bono" Tono, the Shoshinkai/
ShoStinkyKai priest in New York state who was really the person behind
that 1984 English translation of the original Japanese publication made
by the aforementioned, so called "Shoshin-kai committee," and NOT any so
called "Nichiren Shoshu Myoshin-ji Danto, Overseas" members! ROTFL.
War. } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
I received it from a former Shoshinkai member who returned to Nichiren
Shoshu. At p. 18, the pamphlet states: "While High Priest Nittatsu
Shonin was still alive, Nikken Abe constantly claimed that he had
received Kechimyaku Sojo." It goes on to question this because he had
not been appointed Daigakuto. However, my point is that if Nikken Shonin
had been erroneously making this claim while Nittatsu Shonin was still
alive, it is probable that Nittatsu Shonin would have heard about it and
disavowed it.
Foon
news:9f8htv$krr$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> The interesting thing about this is that when I was recently in Japan I
was
> told that the Shoshinkai have changed their name and have commenced a very
> strong propagation campaign. They are making very serious inroads into
the
> NST and the SGI and now number well over 500,000 members. Most of this
> growth has occurred since the split between the SGI and the NST and the
> group seems to be on its way to becoming a major player in Japan.
ROFL!
Cody
So, you were on a train and some people gave you their opinion. Does this
kind of thing on the same level as your constant reference to "historical
fact"?
Cody
greengables
Thanks for bringing this up, Airborne, and keep on dogging those who
slander our High Priest Nikken Shonin. You would think that after so
many years they would wake up and leave us alone but as you say their
own existence is based on a grudge against the Geika Sama. What about
that! I think it was Artie who mentioned that Ikeda has shown no ill
effects of his actions. Well how could he, they are so terrible they
couldn't possibly manifest in this lifetime but like white leprosy
will take a long time to manifest their insidiousness later.
BTW Stoney, remember that inner ear infection I had last summer that
made me a dizzy blond for several weeks. It is trying to come back,
but I already have my Serc in hand, and I am not letting it get a grip
this time, especially since I have no Momma around. (I am a Momma's
girl just as you are a Momma's boy.) Perhaps all this slanderous talk
is getting to me??
Certainly all the slanderous talk about someone as important to us as
our High Priest especially calling him Rev Abe-- is an insult to all
Nichiren Shoshu beleivers worldwide! And when you go to Japan this
year on your personal or group tozan you will see for yourself how
inspiring he is and that will make you feel like dogging those fellows
a bit more, I expect.
Great gosho passage on itai doshin too. Not so ironic coming from you
as Marc thinks because he takes the printed word literally and without
humour. I think the dog metaphor, although a trifle over the top, is
raving-ly funny.
Greenie
Artie
I generally make it a practice not to respond to abusive, demeaning,
factually-challenged posts, but I'm making an exception here.
First, I've changed the subject of the post to Reggie's posts should be an
embarassment to Nichiren Shoshu, because they do. Maybe some of your fellow
believers will even concur.
Second, I am hardly anonymous. There are certainly people in this ng who
know exactly who I am, and with whom I have exchanged snail mail
correspondence. I don't particularly care to give you my full name and
address, but if you're really interested, I'm sure you can find it out.
Third (and most importantly), while you claim to have "corrected and
refuted" all "pertinent" claims in my message, you have done nothing of the
sort. What you've done is to claim that there is a book in which the names
of successive High Priests are written, and that Rev. Abe's name was written
in it after Nittatsu Shonin's death, based on Nittatsu Shonin's conversation
with unnamed priest or priests. The problems are 1) This claim was not made
during the court proceedings in which Shoshinkai challenged the legitimacy
of Rev. Abe's succession. If this story is true and valid, why did Nichiren
Shoshu not use it to support Rev. Abe's claims? 2) You have offered no
corroborating evidence to support that this conversation ever took place. I
can make many claims about my conversations with people who are now
deceased, and you cannot refute them. When the person I'm supporting is my
boss, that's all the less reason to believe them. Absent something tangible
from the time when Nittatsu Shonin was alive, this is highly suspect. 3) You
haven't even thought to mention the name or names of the priests involved.
You also pointed out that, prior to Nittatsu Shonin's death, Rev. Abe held
the same administrative position in the priesthood that Nittatsu Shonin held
before becoming High Priest. You are correct, but that and a $1.50 metrocard
will get you on the New York City subway. It means nothing with respect to
succession, and you haven't produced anything to suggest that it does.
You've provided no proof, not even strong evidence to rebut the points I've
made in previous posts, or to demonstrate that Rev. Abe legitimately
succeeded to the High Priesthood of Nichiren Shoshu, and I'd be very
surprised to hear from anyone without an ax to grind in these matters who
thinks otherwise.
Fourth, I'm just curious whether your priest is aware and supportive of your
postings here. If you would be kind enough to give me his name, and the name
of the temple to which you belong, I'd be happy to send him some "writing
samples" for his official comment. Perhaps some Nichiren Shoshu believers
(especially if you belong to the same temple) would do the same.
Fourth, if Roy, or someone else, choses to respond civilly and rationally to
my post, I will be glad to correspond openly with them. Do not expect expect
me to respond to your further postings.
Artie
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
> should read " ů and to fulfill my great wish (daigan) ů", not " ů
> and to fulfill my wishes ů"
Artie
> Thanks for bringing this up, Airborne, and keep on dogging those who
> slander our High Priest Nikken Shonin. You would think that after so
> many years they would wake up and leave us alone but as you say their
> own existence is based on a grudge against the Geika Sama. What about
> that! I think it was Artie who mentioned that Ikeda has shown no ill
> effects of his actions. Well how could he, they are so terrible they
> couldn't possibly manifest in this lifetime but like white leprosy
> will take a long time to manifest their insidiousness later.
Well Greenie, I would have thought better of you. Airborne seems to be an equal opportunity dogger, dropping what eagles drop on
those of us who are on the ground. His stoneness seems to have a far greater grudge against me than any I've expressed towards your
High Priest. But leaving those matters aside, the reason that "I don't leave you alone" is that Rev. Abe (in my humble opinion) has
hijacked the religion of my choice and my belief. Shoshinkai is not another sect, but rather (if I may coin a phrase) "Nichiren
Shoshu in exile". The 750 year tradition, the Three Great Secret Laws, the Three Treasures, the gosho, the writings and teachings
of the successive High Priests through Nittatsu Shonin, the spirit of the Daishonin, the Head Temple at Taisekiji, the will to
correct slander, and the mercy to spread the True teaching - those are what Shoshinkai is about. If Rev. Abe expected to kick us
out of the sect, and have us pack up our luggage and find another happy home, he picked the wrong group. The Shoshinkai priests
regard their excommunication from Nichiren Shoshu as illegitimate, so until it's undone, and the past 20+ years corrected, I think
you'll find us around for some time to come. I don't know that you would act differently.
I do love your (and Roy's reasoning)
Mr. Ikeda - Nothing bad has happened ---> Insidious karma, like white leprosy
Rev. Abe - Nothing bad has happened (????) ---> The Daishonin has validated his "leadership" of the sect
>
> BTW Stoney, remember that inner ear infection I had last summer that
> made me a dizzy blond for several weeks. It is trying to come back,
> but I already have my Serc in hand, and I am not letting it get a grip
> this time, especially since I have no Momma around. (I am a Momma's
> girl just as you are a Momma's boy.) Perhaps all this slanderous talk
> is getting to me??
>
> Certainly all the slanderous talk about someone as important to us as
> our High Priest especially calling him Rev Abe-- is an insult to all
> Nichiren Shoshu beleivers worldwide! And when you go to Japan this
> year on your personal or group tozan you will see for yourself how
> inspiring he is and that will make you feel like dogging those fellows
> a bit more, I expect.
>
Hate to break the news, but he is a priest, and his family name is Abe. Calling him Rev. Abe is perfectly appropriate. I refer to
him as Rev. Abe just as I refer to Daisaku Ikeda as "Mr. Ikeda", not "President Ikeda". Those who've followed my sporadic forays on
arbn might recall that I took SG people to task for referring to your High Priest as "Nikken", which (as I've been told) is truly
demeaning. It is not intended as an insult; it merely reflects the fact that I do not accept him as my High Priest, or as the
legitimate High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu. I try to speak civilly to those with whom I disagree, something Mr. Eagle seems
incapable of. When you speak of "how inspiring he is", I can only think of all the stories I used to hear about people's
experiences with Mr. Ikeda - how inspiring he was, how unsparaing, how he knew and responded perfectly to their life condition,
etc. And I've heard the same about Werner Erhardt, Guru Maharaji, Tony Robbins, Rabbi Schneerson and a host of others. One person
who recently met Mr. Ikeda at Soka U (in Japan) said that they felt as if they were in the Treasure Tower. I'm glad you found him
inspiring, but that is not the primary role of a High Priest. If you need a High Priest to "inspire" you, then you're in the wrong
religion. I don't think Mr. Stoney needs any more encouragement to "dog" people. I can think of a number of better ways in which he
could use his time.
>
> Great gosho passage on itai doshin too. Not so ironic coming from you
> as Marc thinks because he takes the printed word literally and without
> humour. I think the dog metaphor, although a trifle over the top, is
> raving-ly funny.
Don't know what you're talking about here. There was no gosho passage in Stoney's ravings to me. From what I've read, his favorite
gosho quote is, "How pitiful. How pitiful.", delivered, as always, without context.
Calling Stony's use of language "A trifle over the top", is like saying the Elton John's outfits are "a tad excessive". If it was
done in good humor, I'd be more than willing to take it. It is, however, arrogant, contemptuous, hateful, and demeaning. Should you
be on the receiving end of the same, I doubt you'll find it so amusing.
>
> Greenie
P.S. Next time you speak with Mr. Eagle, please tell him that his fabled detective skills leave much to be desired. The pamphlet
that Roy quoted from was authoritatively NOT translated by Rev. Tono. It was, as I said, translated by lay believers of Rev.
Yamaguchi's temple. I know who several of them are. Rev. Tono HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. In 1984, Rev. Tono was still a Nichiren
Shoshu priest. He was in New York, not in Japan during the events that led to the excommunication of the Shoshinkai priests, and
so, was not excommunicated at the same time as they were. He did author a pamphlet which bears his name and copyright, but he had
no connection whatsoever with this pamphlet. There is a participant in this newsgroup who has been in touch with one of the
translators and could probably confirm my statements, but I'd prefer not to drag him / her into it. Suffice it to say that Mr.
Eagle knows not what he is talking about in this regard. You should also know that Mr. Eagle was correct in pointing out that, on
being reassigned back to Japan, Rev. Tono was replaced by Rev. Shiina (who you have referred to as a devil - although you haven't
answered the question of whether he was a devil at that time, or whether he only became a devil when he left Nichiren Shoshu). Rev.
Tono returned to the United States in about 1982 to serve as a priest for those believers who chose not to belong to the Sokagakkai
(contrary to Rev. Abe's orders). While the decision to return was his alone, he was in regular touch with Taisekiji from that time
until the time of his excommunication in about 1988. There was no mystery as to his whereabouts. It was only after he was
excommunicated that he officially joined Shoshinkai. I don't have the benefit of Mr. Eagle's military experience, so I don't know
if it is appropriate to characterize 6 years abroad in regular contact as "AWOL". I know that when Rev. Nagasaka wished to deliver
the excommunication papers, he had no difficulty finding Rev. Tono. Nor was his success attributable to any mystic power.
That's enough for now.
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
Re: For Artie, the Anonymous, Cowardly, UNhouse-broken MyoDoggie!*
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sat, Jun 2, 2001, 6:49am (CDT-2)
From: uma913...@aol.com (greengables)
shuffling; because he has seen & heard EVERYthing that those Shoshinkai/
ShoStinkyKai priests have even said or written to promote their GRUDGE &
HATRED against the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin and the Nichiren
Shoshu Priesthood, just because they had all been justifiably EXPELLED
from it by the year 1982!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Further, there were things published here under the name of Shoshinkai
that may not accurately reflect the beliefs of the Shoshinkai priests.
<--- #2.
2) RC comments: See above #1.
That is No-thing [Zen] but Artie's artful Myodoggie dodging & alibi-ing
and attempting to make a DISclaimer already about something that he's
pretending that he's never seen, and CONTRADICTing himself by commenting
Upon it when he just wrote & I quote above that, "I'll have to withhold
comment until I see the publication."! "What a DOG?!", Artie, you old
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Thanks for bringing this up, Airborne, and keep on dogging those who
slander our High Priest Nikken Shonin. <--- #1.
RC comments: Well, thank you for your comments, and bear in mind that
"Airborne" (who dat?) is only repaying the favor to the arrogant &
ignorant, low life conditioned DOGs - JACKALs like "Artie', the
ANONYMOUS & COWARDly old LYING-ASS MyoDoggie Dog - JACKAL who dare to
violate my airspace in cyberspace* and keep on barking & "dogging out"
(insulting) & SLANDERing the dignity & integrity of the 67th High
Priest, Nikken Shonin & Nichiren Shoshu priesthood; because I am NOT a
tolerator of violators, period!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> You would think that after so many years they would wake up and
leave us alone, but as you say, their own existence is based on a grudge
against the Geika Sama. <--- #2.
2) RC comments: Yes, in Artie the MyoDoggie's and Shoshinkai's, nka.
Sho' nuff Stinky Kai's case, they seem to only have their BIG grudge
against the 67th High Priest as their entire reason for existence or
their "One Life to Live"! - tv "soap opera" show. LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
What about that! I think it was Artie who mentioned that Ikeda has shown
no ill effects of his actions. Well how could he, they are so terrible
they couldn't possibly manifest in this lifetime but like white leprosy
will take a long time to manifest their insidiousness later.
---------------------------------------------------------------
BTW - Stoney, >>> remember that inner ear infection I had last summer
that made me a dizzy blond for several weeks[?] <--- #3.
3) RC comments: Answer - Well, all I can vaguely remember is about you
saying that the Merlot wine you drank made you feel "dizzy" like a
"blonde," that is, until after you finished off a bottle of it to get
"warmed up" before you demonstrated the proper technique of
"chug-a-lugging" a keg of Canadian beer, before the paramedics rushed
into the restaurant for me after I slipped off the seat & fell down
under the table, which made me an ambulatory out-patient for "several
weeks" in order to make a full recovery! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> It is trying to come back, but I already have my Serc in hand, and I
am not letting it get a grip this time, especially since I have no Momma
around. (I am a Momma's girl just as you are a Momma's boy.) <--- #4.
4) RC comments: Seriously, that may not be an ear infection; it may just
be the effect of all of the drastic changes in altitude & climate you've
been going through and had to adjust & readjust to with all of your
traveling" from LAX (L.A. International airport) in California USA to
Narita International airport in Japan, Up to Mt. Fuji, back down to
Narita & LAX, and then going Up to San Francisco, California that is
making you feel dizzy since you've "come back" from all of that!
Well, somebody has to rack Up those "frequent flyer miles" and be a
"momma's girl" too, Dr. GreenG! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Perhaps all this slanderous talk is getting to me?? <--- #5.
5) RC comments: Answer - that's probably true, because just reading one
of those Artie the Anonymous & COWARDly LYING-ASS MyoDoggie Dog
SLANDERous mess-ages tends to get to me, to raise Up my BP - blood
pressure & BSL readings! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Certainly all the slanderous talk about someone as important to us
as our High Priest especially calling him Rev Abe --- is an insult to
all Nichiren Shoshu believers worldwide! <--- #6.
6) RC comments: See above # 1.
In my opinion, that certainly is intended by Artie the Anonymous &
COWARDly LYING-ASS MyoDoggie Dog to be an insult and his DOGgish -
JACKALish way of barking at & "dogging out" the 67th High Priest, of
course!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> And when you go to Japan this year on your personal or group tozan
you will see for yourself how inspiring he is and that will make you
feel like dogging those fellows a bit more, I expect. <--- #7.
7) RC comments: Well, not only that, but Stoney (me) feels that he is
just going to have to house-break & put a muzzle and a leash on that
Artie the Anonymous LYING-ASS COWARDly MyoDoggie Dog, too! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Great gosho passage on itai doshin too. Not so ironic coming from
you as Marc thinks because he takes the printed word literally and
without humour. <--- #8.
8) RC comments: Well, I haven't seen what "Marc thinks" about that on
another posting yet, but I won't try to debate or dis-cuss the sacred
Gosho with any HST - Heretic-al SLANDERous Traitor like Dr. "Marc" [who
dat?] the Moron! ROTFL.
>>> I think the dog metaphor, although a trifle over the top, is
raving-ly funny. <--- #9.
Greenie
9) RC comments: See above #1.
Well, "going over the top" is just a little payback to Artie the
Anonymous, LYING-ASS COWARDly MyoDoggie Dog - JACKAL for all of his
years of barking at & "dogging out" somebody who he arrogantly &
ignorantly calls "Rev. Abe" and the entire Nichiren Shoshu priesthood!
And, to make that even worse, now that Roy Boyce has posted & really
finally "gotten the goods", the evidence & real source of what he's been
saying (writing) all of these years on Arbn: "Where the Fun Never
Stops!," Artie is just COWARDly trying to alibi & deny & LIE his way out
of it, but that won't work!
So, since he's just an old d-o-g by his own admission, I can't give him
any razz-berries, which dogs don't eat, to reward him. I have to give
Artie the Anonymous & COWARDly LYING-ASS MyoDoggie DOG/ JACKAL his "just
desserts" - "Kibbles 'n Bits" - dog food! LOL. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
CDT+5. This is still in regard to pages 1 to 2 of his absurdly long,
pile of "Myodoggie" Dog doggy mess-age! LOL.
******************************************************
The document is entitled "Guide to True Faith -- Answers to Questions of
Soka Gakkai Members." The author is identified as the Shoshin-kai
Committee. It was written in Japanese in 1982. The English version was
translated, edited and published by the Nichiren Shoshu Myoshinji Danto,
Overseas in June 1984. The address is given as 147-25 68th Road,
Flushing NY 11367. I received it from a former Shoshinkai member who
returned to Nichiren Shoshu. At p. 18, the pamphlet states:
"While High Priest Nittatsu Shonin was still alive, Nikken Abe
constantly claimed that he had received Kechimyaku Sojo." It goes on to
question this because he had not been appointed Daigakuto. However, my
point is that if Nikken Shonin had been erroneously making this claim
while Nittatsu Shonin was still alive, it is probable that Nittatsu
Shonin would have heard about it and disavowed it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Roy,
First, my apologies for the delay. It took some time to get materials,
and there have been a lot of intervening issues. I did not find the
pamphlet in my own files, but a friend dug up a copy for me. I have
browsed it:
>>> - Although authorship is listed as "The Shoshinkai Committee", it is
my understanding that this is a product of Myoshinji Temple and its
priest, Rev. Yamaguchi. It was translated by his temple members here,
whose translations experience and skills are open to question. <--- #1.
1) RC comments: First of all, that is all No-thing [Zen] but a BIG Phat
DOG-JACKAL Lie being told by that BIG Phat DOG-JACKAL LIAR - Artie the
Anonymous & COWARDly MyoDoggie Dog for his dog pound kennel KULT master,
a BIG Phat DOG-JACKAL & rascal known as the "Right Reverend Sunny Bono"
Tono! ROTFL.
Because, there NEVER was "a product of Myoshinji Temple and its' priest,
Rev. Yamaguchi" here in the USA:
a. NST - Myoshin-ji temple's first (1st) chief priest was NOT anyone
named "Rev. Yamaguchi";
b. it was NOT even opened until June 1984, "coincidentally" the same
month & year that the "product" - above, aforementioned document - was
published; and ...
c. there wasn't even an asst. priest assigned to it when it opened in
June 1984!
Therefore, there really could NOT have been any alleged "Nichiren Shoshu
Myoshinji Danto, Overseas" members of NST - Myoshin-ji in June 1984!
I verified all of the above (a, b & c) with a phone call and spoke with
someone there at NST Myoshin-ji on 6/2/01 who knew its' history; and I
spoke with someone in person at my own NST local temple yesterday on
6/03/01 who was actually there when NST - Myoshin-ji was officially
opened in June 1984 - the daughter of its' very first chief priest who
officially opened it!
FYI - the very first chief priest of NST - Myoshin-ji was Rev. Nagasaka
who is now chief priest of NST - Myosetsu-ji in New York state!
Secondly, there are NO two (2) Nichiren Shoshu temples named alike in
Japan and "Overseas"!
AFAIK - there is/was NO Nichiren Shoshu Temple in Japan named
"Myoshinji" with a Shoshinkai/ ShoStinkyKai priest named "Rev.
Yamaguchi" that had any so called "Danto" members "Overseas" in June
1984!
Therefore, all of the above is/was No-thing [Zen] but a complete
fabrication made Up to try to hide the fact that the above,
aforementioned "product" was really a translation that was translated
AND published in Flushing, New York involving none other than that
Shoshinkai/ Sho' nuff Stinky Kai priest, the "Right Reverend Sunny Bono"
Tono, of curse, err of course! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> While many of the points made may be consistent with Shoshinkai
positions, it is not a sanctioned representation of Shoshinkai's
position, much as Rev. Tono's pamphlet which, while the work of a
Nichiren Shoshu priest, did not speak for the sect as a whole. <--- #2.
2) RC comments: See above #1.
Since you have already admitted & CONfessed that it is quote, "my
understanding", that the so called "product" was an English translation
made from the very same, original document made by the "Shoshinkai
Committee" by "Myoshinji temple and its Rev. Yamaguchi," then that is
No-thing [Zen] but NON-sense and another BIG Phat DOG-JACKAL Lie being
told by a BIG Phat DOG-JACKAL LIAR - Artie, you old LYING-ASS MyoDoggie
Dog! ROTFL.
Gee, Artie! Even your human, canine cousin, the INfamous rapper -
"Snoop Doggy Dog," would be down right, doggedly ashamed of you and your
Sho' nuff Stinky Kai dog pound kennel KULT master - the "Right Reverend
Sunny Bono" Tono Dog-asses, for all of your NOT done right, down right,
doggoned, pathetic, PSYCHO-pathological LYING - Artie, you Anonymous &
COWARDly LYING-ASS, MyoDoggie Dog, BIG Dog-ass LIAR! ROTFL. War. } :
< { 0
Artie
Inspector Reggie continues to doggedly pursue his case, outright calling me
a LIAR. Perhaps the facts require a bloodhound rather than a stone eagle.
Since a particular pamphlet (which he has apparently never seen ... makes it
a little harder to do the detective work, eh?) purports to be translated by
the Overseas believers of Myoshinji Temple, a Shoshinkai temple in Japan
whose priest is Rev. Yamaguchi, Inspector Reggie has undertaken a thorough
investigation. He has found that Myoshinji Temple in San Francisco was
barely in existence at the time the pamphlet was published, and that there
wasn't even a priest there at the time, let alone, a Rev. Yamaguchi. Stating
that no two Nichiren Shoshu temples have the same name, Inspector Reggie has
branded me, without question or equivocation on his part, a LIAR (not to
mention a number of other things).
Well, Inspector Reggie forgot one thing. When the Japanese name temples,
they do not name them based on their English phoenetic equivalent. Their
names are given in Kanji, and there is more than one kanji that is
pronounced "shin". Long before there was a Myoshinji Temple in San
Francisco, there was and is a (former Nichiren Shoshu, now Shoshinkai)
Myoshinji Temple in Japan. It is situated in Meguro. Rev. Hoko Yamaguchi is
a priest there. I looked for a website to provide the coup de grace, but
found none. (There are a number of Myoshinji temples in other sects, HBS
among them.) Perhaps, though, if Inspector Carpenter can enlist Inspector
Imanishi, he can take a look at the Shoshinkai website - www.fujimon.or.jp
(Japanese only) and satisfy his suspicions.
Artie
Reggie's trash talk follows.
CB
I can't believe you are even reading this jerks posts, Artie.
What's even more incredible is that you take him seriously
(8^))] Peace!
greengables
Well. Artie that was a good read and I do enjoy your style. Beats me
what I would ever have to argue about with you in person...You have
chosen your way and I have chosen mine. I am fully cognizant of your
rationale, I just wans't there and will never relate to it in the way
you do, i,e,, being totally besotted with hatred for my High Priest
to the extent that you are consumed by it and leave true Buddhism.
So I would simply ask you? What makes a High Priest in your religion?
I admire our High Priest but not in the pergorative way you suggest as
if I worshipped him or in the same way that the SGI apotheosizes
Ikeda. I find him a very healthy individual for his age and that at
least is something I hope we will all enjoy-- good health and vitality
in old age. Good health inspires me to take care of my own health. I
am keenly aware of the dedication of his whole lifetime to Buddhism as
an example of the devotion and rigorous training of all priests.
Because the priests are actually trained, they can lead and a good
believer who has faith will understand how to follow and in turn will
be able lead others. We are all walking towards the Buddha.
Perhaps your faith and your priests are already so perfected that you
have no reason to try or need for inspiration to go higher. Bow Wow.
Artie. Throw the dog a bone.LOL
Just kidding about the doggie thing....just a friendly joke. I am
actually sorry we disagree...not much point in hashing it out all over
again, I suppose... Goodbye and Goodluck.
Artie
> I can't believe you are even reading this jerks posts, Artie.
> What's even more incredible is that you take him seriously
>
> (8^))] Peace!
>
Craig,
I've asked myself the same question.
I do not read his original posts, but I do read his responses to mine. It's
neither easy, nor pleasant. I vowed not to respond to him, but several things
have led me to make exceptions for several of his posts.
First, silence is often taken as agreement. In between his incessant trash talk,
he makes statements about points I have made, about my priest, and about me.
You, and many others may have him in your killfiles, but there are lurkers and
others who may read his posts. While I do not have as much time (or inclination)
for posting as you, or many others, I do not want to leave his statements
unchallenged.
Second, despite his utterly classless obnoxiousness (or whatever the word is),
he obviously does attach a great deal of importance to Nichiren Shoshu. I would
be remiss in failing to challenge what I believe to be his misconceptions.
Third, some people (greenie, at least) seem to take his posts seriously and / or
consider them factually correct. All the more reason to try to disabuse them of
that notion.
Fourth, I don't know if anyone else will respond to my posts. This particular
exchange came out of message posted for Roy Boyce. Since I took over a month to
respond to his prior post, I can hardly expect his immediate reply. (Since he,
like me, is a sporadic poster at best, I don't even know if he's seen this
response.) I heard nothing from Cody, yourself, Mr. T, dc, Paul or the rest, so
I'm left with Reggie.
Fifth, in this case, he went out on a limb to make very specific and verifiably
false statements, and made them with his usual arrogance and overconfidence.
Specifically, he claimed that Rev. Tono was the translator of this particular
pamphlet, and that there is no Myoshinji Temple in Japan, and no Rev. Yamaguchi.
This presented too irresistible an opportunity to point out the inaccuracy of
his statements. Hopefully, it would provide an opportunity for reflection not
only for anyone who takes his posts at face value, but for Reggie, as well.
Anyway, with limited time, and other priorities, you can rest assured that I
will not be engaging him in any long running debates.
I do have a question, which I also included in a prior post. Why does Nichiren
Shoshu not make a statement with regards to his posts? Do you belong to the same
temple as him? Has anyone in Nichiren Shoshu spoken to his priest, or shown him
samples of Reggie's postings? You may not be able to do anything about others
who post pictures of Gohonzons on the web. You can solicit your own religion for
an official statement disavowing Reggie's postings. I'm not saying that the two
things are comparable; I'm certainly not asking that Reggie be barred from arbn.
I just think it would be appropriate that the NS believers take the actions that
they can take within their own house before they start dictating to others.
IMHO, the desecration of the Gohonzon began long before these web sites, and
removing these specific images does not deal with the fundamental
misunderstandings and actions underlying that desecration. This is my opinion
only.
Artie
Mr T
Artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> CB wrote:
>
> > I can't believe you are even reading this jerks posts, Artie.
> > What's even more incredible is that you take him seriously
> >
> > (8^))] Peace!
> >
>
> Craig,
>
> I've asked myself the same question.
> I do not read his original posts, but I do read his responses to mine. It's
> neither easy, nor pleasant. I vowed not to respond to him, but several things
> have led me to make exceptions for several of his posts.
> First, silence is often taken as agreement. In between his incessant trash
Artie, I've always respected your posts. I was no authority on your
questions, and they were directed to Roy, so I stepped aside rather than
talk for the sake of talk.
I have 3 people in my ARBN killfile now, so I (thankfully) missed those
afore-mentioned responses.
If you'd like me to respond, I'll give it a closer look.
--
Kurt
StrawberryYin
ROFL
Roy Boyce
>Fourth, I don't know if anyone else will respond to my posts. This particular
>exchange came out of message posted for Roy Boyce. Since I took over a month to
>respond to his prior post, I can hardly expect his immediate reply. (Since he,
>like me, is a sporadic poster at best, I don't even know if he's seen this
>response.)
Artie -- Your response is duly noted and when I can I will address it, but I
prefer to respond thoughtfully rather than hastily.
Roy
Artie
Roy,
Appreciate the notice. I always prefer thoughful to quick, and since I took well
over a month to respond to your last post (not to suggest that it was all spent in
thought), I'm in no position to insist on speed. Since I don't always follow arbn,
I'd appreciate a personal e-mail when you do post a response.
Thanks.
Artie
Artie
> In article <3B1D91A3...@bellatlantic.net>,
> Artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
<snipped myself>
>
> Artie, I've always respected your posts. I was no authority on your
> questions, and they were directed to Roy, so I stepped aside rather than
> talk for the sake of talk.
> I have 3 people in my ARBN killfile now, so I (thankfully) missed those
> afore-mentioned responses.
> If you'd like me to respond, I'll give it a closer look.
>
> --
> Kurt
>
> ab...@renaultcaravelle.com
Kurt,
It's up to you. I did address the post to Roy and NS believers, so the floor is
yours, if you want to respond. Roy did send e-mail, so it looks like he will
respond in person. Your choice.
Artie
Artie
Just for clarification -
If Shoshinkai is changing its name, that's news to me, and to Rev. Tono. He
thought they might be referring to Myoshinko, who changed their name to
Kenshokai a couple of years ago. Shoshinkai has done a considerable amount of
work to produce a CD Rom of the gosho, including images of the original gosho
and a good deal of scholarship. They have apparently created some kind of
exhibit based around that and the life of the Daishonin, and are showing it
around Japan. I don't know if that is the "propagation campaign" that John's
sources mentioned, or even if he is really talking about Shoshinkai (since they
haven't changed their name). I am not familiar with Shoshinkai's membership
figures.
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
CDT+5.
I changed the subject/title to: Artie, ShoStinkyKai chief lap dogg
sniffs Up case, but got NO proof!*
******************************************************
Chief Inspector Carpenter Pursues the Case
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Jun 5, 2001, 3:51am (CDT+5)
From: myo...@bellatlantic.net (Artie)
>>> Where is Peter Falk when we need him? <--- #1.
1) RC comments: Answer - Peter Falk, aka. "Inspector Columbo" is retired
& lives on in the Reruns on Cable TV Village in LaLaLand, California,
aka. state of Confusion 90200! So, please send him a new raincoat,
Artie you old ShoStinkyKai, chief lap dancing dog, Myodoggie Dogg!
ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Inspector Reggie continues to doggedly pursue his case, outright
calling me a LIAR. <--- #2.
2) RC comments: That is INcorrect, FOOL! - sez real "Mr. T." LOL.
Because, Chief Inspector RC - Reggie Columbo (who dat?) called you a BIG
Phat Dog-Jackal LIAR, NOT a LIAR, Artie, you old, Sho' nuff Stinky Kai,
LYING-ASS, BIG chief lap dancing dog, Myodoggie Dogg! ROTFL.
Doggone it, just how many times do I have to tell your Anonymous &
COWARDly old flea-bitten, tick-eaten, sorry doggy DUMB-ASS that RIF -
Reading Is FUNdaMental, FOOL?! - "Mr T". ROTFL. <http://www.rif.org>
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Perhaps the facts require a bloodhound rather than a stone eagle.
<--- #3.
#3. RC comments: Well, who ever you require to get some help for your
Sho' nuff Stinky Kai, LYING-ASS, chief lap dog, GRUDGE & HATRED
campaign case against the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood is alright with
Stone Eagle (me); you can even go get your human canine cousin, Snoop
Doggy Dogg and a Bloodhound named "Johnny Cock-er-chrane" Hound Dogg,
Artie you AC - Anonymous & COWARDly old Myodoggie Dogg! ROTFL.
BTW - And, while you're at it, you need to go fetch yourself a brand new
Hartz Flea & Tick DC - dog collar too, Artie you old, flea & tick bitten
Myodoggie Dogg! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Since a particular pamphlet (which he has apparently never seen ...
makes it a little harder to do the detective work, eh?) purports to be
translated by the Overseas believers of Myoshinji Temple, a Shoshinkai
temple in Japan whose priest is Rev. Yamaguchi, Inspector Reggie has
undertaken a thorough investigation. <--- #4.
4) RC comments: NO, you're all WRONG, Artie - FOOL! LOL.
First of all, Chief Inspector RC - Reggie Columbo (who dat?) does NOT
actually need to see the actual "pamphlet" itself himself, since the
description given of it by Deputy Dogg Inspector RB - Roy Boy-ce in his
shocking, true expose posting was more than sufficient, and you have
already admitted & con-fessed to its' 16-17 years old, sorry-ass
existence! Duh, Artie - FOOL?! - sez real "Mr T". ROTFL.
For example, Arbn readers like me don't actually need to see it when we
can just smell that NaSTy odor emanating from your pile of Sho' nuff
Stinky Kai doggy sh*t, Artie you old, ShoStinkyKai, Myodoggie Dogg!
ROTFL.
Secondly, Chief Inspector RC -Reggie Columbo (who dat?) has only
"undertaken" a preliminary investigation that won't be "thorough" until
it has been completed and thoroughly walked all of the LYING-ASS dog
culprits in the Shoshinkai, nka. Sho Stinky Kai Dogg House/ Kennel Kult
who are involved in this doggoned case and taken them down under, Artie
- FOOL! "I PITY THE FOOLS!" - sez real "Mr T". ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> He has found that Myoshinji Temple in San Francisco was barely in
existence at the time the pamphlet was published, and that there wasn't
even a priest there at the time, let alone, a Rev. Yamaguchi. <--- #5.
5) RC comments: See above #s 2 & 3.
What you really need, besides a bloodhound named Johnny Cock-er-chrane
and a brand new Hartz Flea & Tick Dogg Collar is a seeing-eye dog too,
Artie, you old blind Myodoggie Dogg! ROTFL.
Look down below at the "cut & paste" in part #1c that you made &
attached yourself, Artie you old LYING-ASS FOOL! LOL.
I never wrote that quote, " ... there wasn't even a priest there at that
time," you IDIOT!
Because, I wrote & I quote myself, that:
"c. there wasn't even an asst. priest assigned to it when it opened in
June 1984!"
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Stating that no two Nichiren Shoshu temples have the same name,
Inspector Reggie has branded me, without question or equivocation on his
part, a LIAR (not to mention a number of other things). <--- #6.
6) RC comments: That is a fact, FOOL! LOL.
Because, it is a FACT that "NO two Nichiren Shoshu Temples have the same
name"! - Chief Inspector RC Reggie Columbo (who dat?) LOL.
So, there is NO need to question that or equivocate on that, you BIG
Phat Dog-Jackal LIAR - Artie the Anonymous & COWARDly, flea & tick
bitten, old MyoDoggie Dogg! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Well, Inspector Reggie forgot one thing. <--- #7.
7) RC comments: See above #s 1 - 6.
NO, Artie - FOOL! - sez real "Mr T". LOL.
Chief Inspector RC - Reggie Columbo (who dat?) did NOT forget No-thing
[Zen], Artie you forgetful, old MyoDoggie Dogg! LOL.
Look Up, FOOL! Y-o-u are the forget-ful one who forgot Chief Inspector
Reggie's (who dat?) last name - Columbo! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
When the Japanese name temples, they do not name them based on their
English phoenetic [sic] equivalent. Their names are given in Kanji, and
there is more than one kanji that is pronounced "shin".
>>> Long before there was a Myoshinji Temple in San Francisco, there was
and is a (former Nichiren Shoshu, now Shoshinkai) Myoshinji Temple in
Japan. It is situated in Meguro. Rev. Hoko Yamaguchi is a priest there.
<--- #8.
8) RC comments: See above subject/title & #1. Well, you've done
No-thing [Zen] but your chief lap dancing dog & MyoDoggie Dogg sniffing
all around and Up & down; but just where, oh where, is your Actual Proof
to submit to the APC - Arbn "Peoples' Court" on this doggoned case,
Artie you Anonymous & COWARDly, LYING-ASS Myodoggie Dogg BIG Dog-Jackal
LIAR?! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> I looked for a website to provide the coup de grace, but found none.
<--- #9.
9) RC comments: See above #8.
"OoPps, there it is; OoPps, there it is"! LOL.
Artie, the ShoStinkyKai chief lap dancing dog done just admitted &
con-fessed right there that he does NOT have ANY kind of proof that
"there was and is a (former Nichiren Shoshu, now Shoshinkai) Myoshinji
temple in Japan"!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> (There are a number of Myoshinji temples in other sects, HBS among
them.) <--- #10.
10) RC comments: See above subject/title & #s 1 - 9.
That is No-thing [Zen] but your sorry, weak-ass obfuscation & dog-ass
subterfuge and is totally IRrelevant to this dis-cussion & off-topic
too; because the topic of this dis-cussion is only about Nichiren Shoshu
- NST temples, Artie you old, chief lap dancing dog, Myodoggie Dogg -
FOOL! - sez real "Mr T". ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Perhaps, though, if Inspector Carpenter can enlist Inspector
Imanishi, he can take a look at the Shoshinkai website -
www.fujimon.or.jp (Japanese only) and satisfy his suspicions. <--- #11.
Artie
11) RC comments: Well, Chief Inspector Carpenter (who dat?) does NOT
need to enlist a ShoStinkyKai Inspector Imanishi to take a look at the
Shoshinkai website in Japanese, please! LOL.
Because, Chief Inspector RC - Reggie Columbo can smell that strong,
stinky-stanky dog-sh*t odor coming from your dog-assed Shoshinkai, nka.
Sho' nuff Stinky-Stanky Kai website without even having to go to it &
click on it, Artie you A & C - Anonymous & COWARDly, old flea & tick
bitten, chief lap dancing dog, MyoDoggie Dogg! ROTFL. War. } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
Reginald Carpenter
CDT+5.
I changed the subject/title to: Craig Da Brat-cher is No-thing [Zen]
but a NST - No Show at Temple!*
******************************************************
Re: Chief Inspector Carpenter Pursues the Case
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Jun 5, 2001, 4:26am (CDT+5)
From: jqpu...@jamthespam.net (CB)
>>> I can't believe you are even reading this jerks posts, Artie. <---
#1.
1) RC comments: Well, I can believe you: the two (2) of you have so much
in common - you're both such BIG dog-ass JERKS, Craig Da Brat-cher!
ROTFL.
That's just why I'm able to catch both of you LYING-ASS JERKS JERKING
OFF & LYING so easily, Craig Da Jerk-Off Brat-cher! ROTFL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> What's even more incredible is that you take him seriously. <--- #2.
(8^))] Peace!
2) RC comments: No, FOOL! LOL.
What's even more INcredible is that Y-O-U are so DC - D-a-m-ned CHILDish
and take Arbn: "Where the Fun Never Stops!" so seriously your self -
Craig Da Brat-cher you FOOL! - sez real "Mr T" - "I PITY the FOOL"!
ROTFL.
OTOH - Your BIG Phat JERKing-OFF LYING-ASS still has NOT even been to
the NST local temple once this year, which just goes to prove that you
are No-thing [Zen] but a BIG Phat, sorry-ass AAIBH - Arbn Armchair
Internet Bootist HYPOCRITE - Craig Da Brat-cher! War. } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
Where is Peter Falk when we need him?
Inspector Reggie continues to doggedly pursue his case, outright calling
me a LIAR.
Petryjj
>> told that the Shoshinkai have changed their name and have commenced a very
>> strong propagation campaign. They are making very serious inroads into the
>> NST and the SGI and now number well over 500,000 members. Most of this
>> growth has occurred since the split between the SGI and the NST and the
>> group seems to be on its way to becoming a major player in Japan.
>
>Just for clarification -
>If Shoshinkai is changing its name, that's news to me, and to Rev. Tono.
I can only go on what I was told. Since the people involved are the ones who
should know and understand the distinctions between the different groups, I
would think that they would not confuse the different groups. But as is true
with everything that one does not know firsthand, I cannot state unequivocably
that my information is correct. Rev. Tono may not have current information
either. I just found it to be interesting.
madness takes it toll, please have exact change
Artie
I found it interesting, too. I cannot comment on your sources, and I certainly
don't think you or they made this up. I'm pretty confident that Rev. Tono's
information is current, however.
>
> madness takes it toll, please have exact change
Do you accept twos and threes?
Artie
BlueDolphinWeb
formerly of Myohoji-Etiwanda doing? I used to love to sit and talk with him
when he was there years ago, but haven't heard anything about him in ages.
Does anyone know?
john petry
Mr T
bluedol...@aol.com (BlueDolphinWeb) wrote:
> Which brings me back to a question I had earlier: What is Rev. Sakata,
> formerly of Myohoji-Etiwanda doing? I used to love to sit and talk with him
> when he was there years ago, but haven't heard anything about him in ages.
> Does anyone know?
>
He's in Japan. His son was also assistant priest at Myohoji, and more
recently in San Francisco. He has also returned to Japan for another
assignment.
--
Kurt
Reginald Carpenter
10:05pm CDT-2; x-ref. to RC (my) postings on 6/10/01, 8:23am & 6/15/01,
4:19am CDT. I changed the subject/title to: Re. the SLANDERous
Shoshinkai "U-Dumb-ara F[H]ound-ation" website!*
1) This is a followup to my first (1st) reply to GreenGables' original
message which now includes a message by that "Artie" the anonymous &
COWARDly "MyoDog" poster that is "cut & pasted" into her new message.
2) Since Artie the anonymous & COWARDly Myodog is just trying to be a
real slick DOG-JACKAL and use her message & her as his mess-enger in
response to one of my previous messages on 6/04/01, then I will only
respond to her new message at this time.
So sorry, you old DC - dog childish-ass Artie, but "I Can't Go For That
- NO Can Do"! - Hall & Oates. ROTFL.
3) Re. the subject/title & GreenGables original message below, the
Shoshinkai, nka. Shostinkykai priests & laity have a Sho' nuff Stinky
Kai website called the "U-Dumb-ara Found-ation", nka. the "U-Dumb-ara
F[H]ound-ation" or "U-ara-Dumb-ass Hound-ation" with a glossary entry
that deliberately belittles & demeans and IMproperly identifies & names
the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin merely as "Nikken Abe"; but it has
another entry that properly identifies & names the 66th High Priest as
"Nittatsu Shonin"!
Furthermore, that Shoshinkai/ ShoStinkykai website has another glossary
entry to describe itself and to insult the 67th High Priest again by
saying that it, the "Shoshinkai (Shohshin Shokaku Unduo)" - "the
movement for awakening true faith", is "an organization of *Nichiren
Shoshu* priests dedicated to protecting & presenting the purity of true
teachings of Nichiren Daishonin and correcting erroneous beliefs within
the priesthood, including those of the *High Priest,* and laity."
IMHO - that is actual proof of what I've been saying (writing) before,
that Artie the anonymous & COWARDly, flea & tick bitten & ridden, lap
dog dancing, low life conditioned, LYING-ASS old Myodoggie Dogg has been
doing No-thing [Zen] but his Shoshinkai/ ShoStinkyKai Kennel Kult, dog
pound masters' bidding, especially that of the "Right Reverend Sunny
Bono" Tono, to routinely repost all of their BIG Lies, insults &
propaganda on Arbn in order to nurse his & their same old BIG GRUDGE
against the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin & Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood
& religion that they have been doing for over twenty (20) years!
Furthermore, the Shoshinkai/ Shostinkykai have have the sho' nuff Stinky
Kai nerve & UNmitigated gall to act just like CON artists and
really try to FALSELY pass off their collective sorry, dog-asses as
being real Nichiren Shoshu priests instead of the truth of them being
just a little dog pack of EX-COMMUNICATED, EXPELLED & EXILED EX-Nichiren
Shoshu priests!
FYI - that Shoshinkai/ Shostinkykai website commits a crime - deceptive
practice/ fraud which is legally known as "Theft of Identity/ Name" -
along with everything else that those THIEVES are trying to STEAL or
HIJACK away from the real Nichiren Shoshu priesthood & religion - all of
Its' history, lineage & true teachings, just like the new-aged SGI/NSS
(mess!) CULT of Ikeda's Personality Disorder Worshippers'
religio-politico organization has been trying to do, too!
Therefore, since that is a violation of my airspace in cyberspace*,
trying to STEAL the identity & sacred name of the Nichiren Shoshu
priesthood and HIJACK all of Its' history, lineage, & true teachings,
and I am NOT a tolerator of ANY violators, then I hereby DEMAND, NOT
request, that that entire CRIMINAL, SLANDERous & TRAITORous website, NOT
just the offensive entry about the 67th High Priest, be taken off the
internet immediately, if NOT sooner than later! War.
} : < { 0
******************************************************
Re: For Artie, the Anonymous, Cowardly, UNhouse-broken MyoDoggie!*
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Jun 4, 2001, 10:05pm (CDT-2) From: uma913...@aol.com
(greengables)
Artie <myo...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:<3B1AD57F...@bellatlantic.net>...
greengables wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up, Airborne, and keep on dogging those who
slander our High Priest Nikken Shonin. You would think that after so
many years, they would wake up and leave us alone but as you say their
own existence is based on a grudge against the Geika Sama.
What about that[?]!
I think it was Artie who mentioned that Ikeda has shown no ill effects
of his actions. Well how could he[?], they are so terrible, they
couldn't possibly manifest in this lifetime, but, like white leprosy,
will take a long time to manifest their insidiousness later.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Well Greenie, I would have thought better of you. Airborne seems to be
an equal opportunity dogger, dropping what eagles drop on those of us
who are on the ground. His Stone-ness seems to have a far greater grudge
against me than any I've expressed towards your High Priest.
But, leaving those matters aside, the reason that "I don't leave you
alone" is that Rev. Abe (in my humble opinion) has hijacked the religion
of my choice and my belief. Shoshinkai is not another sect, but rather
(if I may coin a phrase) "Nichiren Shoshu in exile". The 750 year
tradition, the Three Great Secret Laws, the Three Treasures, the gosho,
the writings and teachings of the successive High Priests through
Nittatsu Shonin, the spirit of the Daishonin, the Head Temple at
Taisekiji, the will to correct slander, and the mercy to spread the True
teaching - those are what Shoshinkai is about. If Rev. Abe expected to
kick us out of the sect, and have us pack up our luggage and find
another happy home, he picked the wrong group. The Shoshinkai priests
regard their excommunication from Nichiren Shoshu as illegitimate, so
until it's undone, and the past 20+ years corrected, I think you'll find
us around for some time to come. I don't know that you would act
differently.
I do love your (and Roy's reasoning)
Mr. Ikeda - Nothing bad has happened ---> Insidious karma, like white
leprosy Rev. Abe - Nothing bad has happened (????) ---> The Daishonin
has validated his "leadership" of the sect
---------------------------------------------------------------
GreenGables:
BTW - Stoney, remember that inner ear infection I had last summer that
made me a dizzy blond for several weeks [?] It is trying to come back,
but I already have my Serc in hand, and I am not letting it get a grip
this time, especially since I have no Momma around. (I am a Momma's girl
just as you are a Momma's boy.) Perhaps all this slanderous talk is
getting to me??
Certainly all the slanderous talk about someone as important to us as
our High Priest especially calling him Rev Abe -- is an insult to all
Nichiren Shoshu believers worldwide! And when you go to Japan this year
on your personal or group tozan you will see for yourself how inspiring
he is and that will make you feel like dogging those fellows a bit more,
I expect.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Hate to break the news, but he is a priest, and his family name is Abe.
Calling him Rev. Abe is perfectly appropriate. I refer to him as Rev.
Abe just as I refer to Daisaku Ikeda as "Mr. Ikeda", not "President
Ikeda". Those who've followed my sporadic forays on arbn might recall
that I took SG people to task for referring to your High Priest as
"Nikken", which (as I've been told) is truly demeaning. It is not
intended as an insult; it merely reflects the fact that I do not accept
him as my High Priest, or as the legitimate High Priest of Nichiren
Shoshu. I try to speak civilly to those with whom I disagree, something
Mr. Eagle seems incapable of.
When you speak of "how inspiring he is", I can only think of all the
stories I used to hear about people's experiences with Mr. Ikeda - how
inspiring he was, how unsparaing, how he knew and responded perfectly to
their life condition, etc. And I've heard the same about Werner Erhardt,
Guru Maharaji, Tony Robbins, Rabbi Schneerson and a host of others. One
person who recently met Mr. Ikeda at Soka U (in Japan) said that they
felt as if they were in the Treasure Tower. I'm glad you found him
inspiring, but that is not the primary role of a High Priest. If you
need a High Priest to "inspire" you, then you're in the wrong religion.
I don't think Mr. Stoney needs any more encouragement to "dog" people. I
can think of a number of better ways in which he could use his time.
---------------------------------------------------------------
GreenGables:
Great Gosho passage on itai doshin too. Not so ironic coming from you as
Marc thinks because he takes the printed word literally and without
humour. I think the dog metaphor, although a trifle over the top, is
raving-ly funny.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
Don't know what you're talking about here. There was no Gosho passage in
Stoney's ravings to me. From what I've read, his favorite gosho quote
is, "How pitiful. How pitiful.", delivered, as always, without context.
Calling Stony's use of language "A trifle over the top", is like saying
the Elton John's outfits are "a tad excessive". If it was done in good
humor, I'd be more than willing to take it. It is, however, arrogant,
contemptuous, hateful, and demeaning. Should you be on the receiving end
of the same, I doubt you'll find it so amusing.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Greenie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Artie:
---------------------------------------------------------------
GreenGables:
Well. Artie that was a good read and I do enjoy your style. Beats me
what I would ever have to argue about with you in person ...You have
chosen your way and I have chosen mine. I am fully cognizant of your
rationale, I just wasn't there and will never relate to it in the way
you do, i.e., being totally besotted with hatred for my High Priest to
the extent that you are consumed by it and leave true Buddhism. So I
would simply ask you, what makes a High Priest in your religion?
I admire our High Priest but not in the pergorative way you suggest as
if I worshipped him or in the same way that the SGI apotheosizes Ikeda.
I find him a very healthy individual for his age and that at least is
something I hope we will all enjoy -- good health and vitality in old
age. Good health inspires me to take care of my own health. I am keenly
aware of the dedication of his whole lifetime to Buddhism as an example
of the devotion and rigorous training of all priests. Because the
priests are actually trained, they can lead and a good believer who has
faith will understand how to follow and in turn will be able lead
others. We are all walking towards the Buddha.
Perhaps your faith and your priests are already so perfected that you
have no reason to try or need for inspiration to go higher. Bow Wow.
Artie. Throw the dog a bone. LOL.
Just kidding about the doggie thing ... just a friendly joke. I am
actually sorry we disagree ... not much point in hashing it out all over
again, I suppose ... Goodbye and Goodluck.
Artie
With regards to the existence of Myoshinji Temple in Meguro, I submit
the following - from someone named Abe, even. It came from the Meguro International
Friendship Organization. You can find them on the web at: http://www02.so-net.ne.jp/~mifa/mifa2/index100.htm
The message is intact, other than that I've removed a few blank lines
and concealed my last name.
I'm sorry that there's no (English) reference to the temple on the
web, itself. Not everything is on the web.
Subject: Re: Request for information Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:57:06 +0900 From: "mifa" To: "Artie" References: 1 Dear Mr. Arthur ******: I have found an entry of the temple under the name 'Myoushinji' at the following address: Myoshinnji Address: 1-20-4, Midorigaoka, Meguro-ku, Tokyo 152-0034 Tel:81-3-3717-3833 Hiroki Abe Meguro International Frienship Association ----- Original Message ----- From: "Artie" To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:38 AM Subject: Request for information > Hello, > > I am trying to find the address and telephone number of a temple in > Meguro. In English, the temple name is written Myoshin-ji. It is a > Nichiren Shoshu temple that is now affiliated with Shoshinkai. I believe > that there is a priest there named Rev. Hoko Yamaguchi. > > If you could send me the address and phone number for the temple, I > would greatly appreciate it. > > Thank you. > > Arthur ****** > New York, USA
As far as Rev. Yamaguchi is concerned, he too is real, even though
he does not have a web reference. If you want to do diligent research,
you might look for a list of the 200 or so priests that Rev. Abe excommunicated
(that's not on the web either, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen).
I'm quite confident you'll find Rev. Hoko Yamaguchi among them, and, if
you look for his temple, you'll find that it is Myoshinji.
Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, a friend who looked at an elementary kanji dictionary found 32 different kanji that are pronounced "shin". A more complete dictionary would have far more. It is therefore quite possible for a number of temples to have different Japanese names, all of which are pronounced "Myoshinji".
Artie
Reginald Carpenter
Re. the SLANDERous Shoshinkai "U-Dumb-ara F[H]ound-ation" website!*
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001, 12:39pm
From: chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)
has validated his "leadership" of the sect.
Stoney's ravings to me. From what I've read, his favorite Gosho quote