The flat-VII chord
Alan W. Pollack
into rock music? If not, who/what/when are the earliest traceable
antecedents?
On a gut level, seems to me like the flat-VII is not only an
identifiable Beatles trademark and mannerism, but that the
chord achieves widespread usage by many other songwriters
starting in the mid/late sixties. In which case, perhaps the
Beatles get the nod for popularizing the chord even if it turns
out that someone else has claims on "precedence."
Lately, I've been particularly struck by Clapton's usage of
Get Back-like stylized blues with the flat-VII on his _Layla_
album, in the context of the several otherwise completely traditional
blues cuts on the album. I'm tempted here to draw a direct Beatles
connection, but perhaps this is a coincidence.
I'm curious what other findings or observations others out there
have made w.r.t. this chord. IMHO, one could write a respectable
Masters Thesis on this topic. The primary challenge would be to
convince oneself that s/he has searched through a sufficient entirety
of the literature to know the answers with certitude.
Thanks,
Alan
---
"Keep on growing is all you got to do."
---
--
All follow-ups are directed to the newsgroup rec.music.beatles.moderated.
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change your headers appropriately. -- the moderators
Maurizio Codogno
Alan W. Pollack <apol...@bbn.com> wrote:
% Are the Beatles responsible for introducing the flat-VII chord
% into rock music? If not, who/what/when are the earliest traceable
% antecedents?
%
% On a gut level, seems to me like the flat-VII is not only an
% identifiable Beatles trademark and mannerism, but that the
% chord achieves widespread usage by many other songwriters
% starting in the mid/late sixties.
I always thought the flat-VII as a device that John liked a lot. On the top
of my head (and surely attributing to him some song by Paul!) I can
remember
- The Night Before
- Norwegian Wood (ok, that's a bit far-fetched, but I always scan "... she
once had me" that way
- It's only love
- A Hard Day's Night
I was thinking about the fact that, if we take the v7 and leave out the
root note, you get the flat-VII. And especially in the early songs, we all
know that v7 was used to start the middle eight. Could it be that they
started using hte "new" chord that way?
ciao, .mau.
ian hammond
wrote:
>Are the Beatles responsible for introducing the flat-VII chord
>into rock music? If not, who/what/when are the earliest traceable
>antecedents?
>
>On a gut level, seems to me like the flat-VII is not only an
>identifiable Beatles trademark and mannerism, but that the
>chord achieves widespread usage by many other songwriters
>starting in the mid/late sixties. In which case, perhaps the
>Beatles get the nod for popularizing the chord even if it turns
>out that someone else has claims on "precedence."
I looked at the flat-VII, which I call the "subtonic", a couple of
years back.
As Maurizio says, there is a simple equivalence between bVII and v(7).
You hear that on "A Hard Day's Night" where the chords are
interchangeable. Following "A Hard Day's Night", Lennon systematically
explores the use of the chord, combining it with other cliches. His
songs on _Help!_ are dominated by the chord.
If you're looking other possible early claimants, then here's a couple
of early examples.
"Gloria", goes down for the ubiquitous I-bVII-IV progression that so
dominates our musical world. Despite Lennon, and later the other
Beatles use of this chord, they didn't quite get to this pattern until
"With A Little Help" (which Joe Cocker used to full advantage). I
think that was because the idea of endless repetition of a chord
sequence was anathema to Lennon, in particular.
"The Last Time" from the Stones follows, with the same pattern. But
that song is based on a Gospel piece of the same name from the Staple
Singers. I've not yet heard their version, but I would guess we would
find the chord in Gospel music.
When you get to "Revolver", it seems impossible that the world could
possibly have avoided the chord. You have three different sources:
1. Harrison using it in an "Indian Context" on "Love You To".
2. McCartney using in the context of IV/v (e.g. F with a G bass in G
major in "Got To Get You Into My Life"). This is a swing convention
(it becomes a 13th chord).
3. Lennon using it in his own style on "She Said". Actually in a
couple of different ways. That second chord is still in dispute.
4. The chord being looped over "Tomorrow Never Knows".
McCartney later took the prize with the magnificent "Hey Jude" outro.
There are some very early examples of the chord in the Beatles, such
as the D-B sequence in "All My Loving". But I don't think these
passing chords qualify -- particularly not in the context of a short
passing in a doo wop progression. McCartney seemed to famous the chord
as a short cadential chord. You hear this in "For No One" and, with a
variation, in "Hello Goodbye".
But you're right. There's a book in this topic alone. I've got tons of
notes on this subject. The Subtonic was the Chord That Had To Happen.
Which reminds me, Alan, I still owe you on the origins of "Because"
(which uses a really wierd subtonic).
In "Structural Functions Of Harmony", Arnold Schoenberg tells me that
the minor chord on the fifth degree cannot act as a dominant (he
insisted on it being called a "five-minor"). Now, maybe if he'd
understood about the subtonic we wouldn't have had to put up with his
work-around :-)
ian
cee...@pacbell.net
"Alan W. Pollack" <apol...@bbn.com> wrote:
> Are the Beatles responsible for introducing the flat-VII chord
> into rock music? If not, who/what/when are the earliest traceable
> antecedents?
>
> On a gut level, seems to me like the flat-VII is not only an
> identifiable Beatles trademark and mannerism, but that the
> chord achieves widespread usage by many other songwriters
> starting in the mid/late sixties. In which case, perhaps the
> Beatles get the nod for popularizing the chord even if it turns
> out that someone else has claims on "precedence."
>
I doubt whether or not they were responsible for it. Chuck Berry used it,
lots of Blues players used it...lots of swing used it-in fact it is a really
popular chord!
> Lately, I've been particularly struck by Clapton's usage of
> Get Back-like stylized blues with the flat-VII on his _Layla_
> album, in the context of the several otherwise completely traditional
> blues cuts on the album. I'm tempted here to draw a direct Beatles
> connection, but perhaps this is a coincidence.
Well, as a long time musician and music minor I would venture to say that
they Beatles may have made it more popular-it gives things an unresolved feel
to some extent-which makes the music more interesting......
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Alan W. Pollack
ian hammond wrote in message <36cd5e15....@news.supernews.com>...
>On 17 Feb 1999 17:36:41 GMT, "Alan W. Pollack" <apol...@bbn.com>
>wrote:
....
>As Maurizio says, there is a simple equivalence between bVII and v(7).
>You hear that on "A Hard Day's Night" where the chords are
>interchangeable.
"Functionally interchangeable" yes, but I believe the flat-VII is a "relic"
of the Modal era and has nothing to do with the minor v chord.
....
>In "Structural Functions Of Harmony", Arnold Schoenberg tells me that
>the minor chord on the fifth degree cannot act as a dominant (he
>insisted on it being called a "five-minor"). Now, maybe if he'd
>understood about the subtonic we wouldn't have had to put up with his
>work-around :-)
Well now that you're dragging Schoenberg into this ("Sind sie ein
tzwoelf-ton Komponist?"), part of what motivates my question is the fact
that the flat-VII simply DOES NOT EXIST in the "classic" textbooks for tonal
harmony. Back in college Harmony 101 (or even 102) you'd get a wan smile
from the professor but still lose points on an exercise into which you had
snuck a subtonic chord.
Perhaps (and here we get off the topic of the Beatles) the question of when
and how the flat-VII shows up in so-called classical music is as interesting
as the one regarding pop music. Granted, by the early 20th century you've
got composers toying around with explicitly modal idioms (e.g. Ralph
Vaughn-Greensleeves-Williams) or with jazz/blues (e.g. Gershwin), but you'd
really have to look hard to find a flat-VII in music before, say, 1880.
Yes, Ian, I'm daring you :-)
-- Alan
---
"This book I learned from my students."
---
ian hammond
wrote:
>ian hammond wrote in message <36cd5e15....@news.supernews.com>...
>>On 17 Feb 1999 17:36:41 GMT, "Alan W. Pollack" <apol...@bbn.com>
>>wrote:
>....
>>As Maurizio says, there is a simple equivalence between bVII and v(7).
>>You hear that on "A Hard Day's Night" where the chords are
>>interchangeable.
>
>"Functionally interchangeable" yes, but I believe the flat-VII is a "relic"
>of the Modal era and has nothing to do with the minor v chord.
In terms of school theory, yes. In terms of a theory applicable to the
Beatles, no. "I'm A Loser" demonstrates that v is a replacement chord
for bVII.
>Perhaps (and here we get off the topic of the Beatles) the question of when
>and how the flat-VII shows up in so-called classical music is as interesting
>as the one regarding pop music. Granted, by the early 20th century you've
>got composers toying around with explicitly modal idioms (e.g. Ralph
>Vaughn-Greensleeves-Williams) or with jazz/blues (e.g. Gershwin), but you'd
>really have to look hard to find a flat-VII in music before, say, 1880.
>Yes, Ian, I'm daring you :-)
I'm a bit tight for time so I'll do the short version :-)
THE SUBTONIC
One of the peculiarities of "It's Only Love" is the way it combines
the subtonic with sharp-side chords:
C e Bb d "It's Only Love"
Now, we can translate the e minor to G major quite easily
C G Bb d It's Only Love"*
The reason I do that is to show how close the sequence is to the
chorus of "Help!" (transposed to C major).
d Bb G C "Help!" Chorus
And having done that, I believe I have shown that in both cases Bb is
clearly being treated as the subtonic. Particularly when it is
approached from the dominant.
Now, we can find this case of the subtonic in Beethoven: i.e. the case
where the subtonic is wrapped in a diatonic
C G Bb F "Waldstein Sonata", main theme
The Bb is as clearly a case of the subtonic as it is in Lennon.
The bass line is identical for both:
C G Bb F Chord
C B Bb A Bass
Lennon reuses the bass line in "Mr Kite", but the mode is diatonic
minor there.
Interestingly, Beethoven uses the chord in a theme where the texture
is primarily that of a repeated chord. In fact, the whole fascination
of that sub-period is the way he uses the piano as a chordal
instrument. A bit like a rhythm guitar. Maybe he just found the chord
intuitively while he was mucking around at the piano (ROTFLMFHO).
Tovey is unperturbed as describes the Bb to F as "..., the 2nd from
(bVII) to (IV)", i.e. the subtonic to the subdominant. His hormonal
level does rise a notch when describing the Waldstein sonata itself as
"an irrevocable act of war, the first act after a long hesitation in
hopes of a compromise with the old regime." Perhaps Beethoven intended
the subtonic to be a bit of a shock. It wouldn't have been the first
time.
These cases are clearly the exception. The rule was the absolute rule
of the fifth degree and woe betide pretenders who would put the major
quality of the seventh degree in doubt without clear, and cogent
reason with a suitable resolution. The Beatles and their mob changed
all that for us. There's no doubt about that.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Hadyn using the subtonic. He was a sort
of Bartok-before-Bartok when it came to folk modes. I haven't
mentioned the settings of British folk songs by Hadyn and Beethoven,
because that would be cheating. Scarlatti the younger might also be
interesting (because he was so precocious). Anyone want to look
through all five hundred sonatas? Renaissance Man had no problems with
the chord.
Brahms (along with Dylan and Elton John) uses a similar pattern of
chords in one place.
THE UNRESOLVED I7
Now, the subtonic is based on the flat seventh degree of the diatonic
scale. So, the chord I7 is also interesting WHEN it is not resolved,
but rather used just for its own color. This is the chord Lennon uses
so distinctively in "Lucy", "Walrus" and "Prudence". Beethoven comes
very close at the end of the last movement of the seventh symphony
where the fiddles play scales based on A7 just before the horns (and a
host of angels) enter (playing the chords A-D-A-E).
I find the affect of that section close enough to an unassociated I7
to be acceptable (compare it with the I7 at the end of the "Help!"
verse or the unresolved I7(9) that Harrison plays at the end of the
first verse of "Nowhere Man").
Alan, I hope this is satisfactory.
ian
====================================
"oh dare, what can the matter be..."
richf...@my-dejanews.com
> into rock music? If not, who/what/when are the earliest traceable
> antecedents?
>
> On a gut level, seems to me like the flat-VII is not only an
> identifiable Beatles trademark and mannerism, but that the
> chord achieves widespread usage by many other songwriters
> starting in the mid/late sixties. In which case, perhaps the
> Beatles get the nod for popularizing the chord even if it turns
> out that someone else has claims on "precedence."
>
> Get Back-like stylized blues with the flat-VII on his _Layla_
> album, in the context of the several otherwise completely traditional
> blues cuts on the album. I'm tempted here to draw a direct Beatles
> connection, but perhaps this is a coincidence.
>
> have made w.r.t. this chord. IMHO, one could write a respectable
> Masters Thesis on this topic. The primary challenge would be to
> convince oneself that s/he has searched through a sufficient entirety
> of the literature to know the answers with certitude.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan
>
Hi Alan,
I hope this foray into the newsgroup isn't going to take too much time away
from your continuing work on the Notes-On series! What's going to happen
with this when you get through Abbey Road and Let It Be? (I guess this is
going to take a while, I shouldn't worry about it too much yet.) Are you
going to progress into solo albums? If so, you're going to be writing the
series for the rest of your life, I guess! Always enjoy reading 'em. I
always meant to tell you, I want to cast my vote for "And I Love Her" being
in the minor key. There are several clues that make feel that way (when the
second verse ends on the major chord, it sounds/feels like a surprising,
pleasant change, not the inevitable expected destination - of course, you
have to imagine you're hearing the song for the first time to see what I
mean), but the sound/feel of that sudden Picardian ending really locks it in.
richforman
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--
Maurizio Codogno
<richf...@my-dejanews.com> addressed Alan:
% I hope this foray into the newsgroup isn't going to take too much time away
% from your continuing work on the Notes-On series! What's going to happen
% with this when you get through Abbey Road and Let It Be?
I hope that there will be a nice intermezzo with the Rutles, and then
eventually a book I can buy :-)
ciao, .mau.
Alan W. Pollack
ian hammond wrote in message <36cedd8d...@news.supernews.com>...
....
>Now, we can find this case of the subtonic in Beethoven: i.e. the case
>where the subtonic is wrapped in a diatonic
>
> C G Bb F "Waldstein Sonata", main theme
>
>The Bb is as clearly a case of the subtonic as it is in Lennon.
>
>The bass line is identical for both:
>
> C G Bb F Chord
> C B Bb A Bass
Oh, come now. The chromatically descending bassline here is much more the
"operative principle" than anything having to do with flat-VII.
As far as Beethoven and the "the Waldstein" goes, first off, I'm frankly
surprised that Tovey doesn't label the Bb chord a "IV of IV," which is the
way in which I think one honestly interprets it; i.e. a plagal cadence in a
momentary nod toward the key of F. More importantly, the chromatic descent
continues the rest of the way down to G with a big flourishing cadence on V.
Schenker would focus you on the imperative of the bassline, the counterpoint
in the alto voice (lower line of the right hand), and the overall
progression from I to V.
What I'm more interested in are antecedents for flat-VII used in cadences as
a substitute for V, not as a passing chord.
>Tovey is unperturbed as describes the Bb to F as "..., the 2nd from
>(bVII) to (IV)", i.e. the subtonic to the subdominant. His hormonal
>level does rise a notch when describing the Waldstein sonata itself as
>"an irrevocable act of war, the first act after a long hesitation in
>hopes of a compromise with the old regime." Perhaps Beethoven intended
>the subtonic to be a bit of a shock. It wouldn't have been the first
>time.
Hmmm ... I think Beethoven's presentation of the second theme in the key of
E Major is much more shocking for its time and place.
But I will grant you, what you describe as the chordal "rhythm guitar"
opening (in the lower octaves, no less!) is also a stunner.
To end on a Beatles-related note, I wonder what kind of list you could put
together of Beatles-to-Beethoven connections!
Off the top of my head, I can think of only two items:
- Moonlight Sonata b/w Because.
- The role of the chorus from Beethoven's 9th in the movie _Help_.
Any other takers?
-- Alan
ian hammond
wrote:
>ian hammond wrote in message <36cedd8d...@news.supernews.com>...
>....
>>Now, we can find this case of the subtonic in Beethoven: i.e. the case
>>where the subtonic is wrapped in a diatonic
>>
>> C G Bb F "Waldstein Sonata", main theme
>>
>>The Bb is as clearly a case of the subtonic as it is in Lennon.
>>
>>The bass line is identical for both:
>>
>> C G Bb F Chord
>> C B Bb A Bass
>
>
>Oh, come now. The chromatically descending bassline here is much more the
>"operative principle" than anything having to do with flat-VII.
No, its not. Otherwise why would Beethoven drop the bassline when he
repeats the theme a couple of bars later, replacing the Bb Subtonic
with a D minor supertonic? He is very clearly playing with the color
of the chords. He is interested in the shock value. The chords are
just as important as the bass line.
I pointed out that "It's Only Love" was written in a period where
Lennon was indisputedly exploring the use of the Subtonic. One of
Lennon's explorations led to a step-wise progression with a chromatic
bass. But I maintain that it was the chord driving the bassline. Not
vice versa.
In any case, when I hear the piece, the Bb works clearly as a Subtonic
to my ears.
>As far as Beethoven and the "the Waldstein" goes, first off, I'm frankly
>surprised that Tovey doesn't label the Bb chord a "IV of IV," which is the
>way in which I think one honestly interprets it; i.e. a plagal cadence in a
>momentary nod toward the key of F.
Well, of course the IV of IV *is*, ultimately, the most lasting
interpretation of the Subtonic. It really is a Sub-Subdominant. Think
of all the mighty songs that live off that bVII-IV-I progression
(which I call the "double plagal").
"With A Little Help" (D-A-E) -- the chorus (listen to Joe Cocker)
"Hey Jude" -- (Eb-Bb-F) the outro
"Sympathy For The Devil" (D-A-E) -- the whole song
There are thousands of other examples.
There many different causes, uses and interpretions of the sub-tonic.
I have a whole theory of it lying around somewhere. It was the chord
that had to happen.
However, I don't accept your "momentary nod toward the key of F" as a
necessary condition. Or, lets put it another way, to say that is to
say that any chromatic chord indicates some other key momentarily.
> More importantly, the chromatic descent
>continues the rest of the way down to G with a big flourishing cadence on V.
>Schenker would focus you on the imperative of the bassline, the counterpoint
>in the alto voice (lower line of the right hand), and the overall
>progression from I to V.
And by doing so, Schenker would miss the Subtonic, which is obviously
an important color chord in this context. Schenker's not wrong, but
you were asking for a chord, not the big picture in functional terms.
Anyway, Lennon's piece also goes down to the dominant, which Lennon
points out very clearly by augmenting it. That doesn't make his
subtonic less colorful.
>What I'm more interested in are antecedents for flat-VII used in cadences as
>a substitute for V, not as a passing chord.
That's a new request, Sir, and we'll try to accomodate you as best we
can. But that's not what you asked for last time you were in the shop.
BTW: I don't quite treat a chord that's bashed out fourteen times in
succession as merely a passing chord. Duration and db's do count.
<snip>
>>Perhaps Beethoven intended
>>the subtonic to be a bit of a shock. It wouldn't have been the first
>>time.
>
>Hmmm ... I think Beethoven's presentation of the second theme in the key of
>E Major is much more shocking for its time and place.
The fact that the mediant E Major is shocking is irrelevant to what
happens in the first few bars of the piece. Anyway, the E major is
obsessively prepared. The abrupt unprepared major mediant in the
earlier Eb piano sonata was a shock.
As I said, Beethoven was *trying* to be shocking. Both with the
mediant second group, and with the Subtonic in the first. Lennon was
just as big a fan of musical fireworks as the E-C-E chord progression
in "It Won't Be Long" demonstrates.
In any case, the flat side color of the first group is what makes that
bright sharp side E major stand out with such pristine clarity.
>But I will grant you, what you describe as the chordal "rhythm guitar"
>opening (in the lower octaves, no less!) is also a stunner.
>To end on a Beatles-related note, I wonder what kind of list you could put
>together of Beatles-to-Beethoven connections!
>
>Off the top of my head, I can think of only two items:
>
>- Moonlight Sonata b/w Because.
>- The role of the chorus from Beethoven's 9th in the movie _Help_.
>
>Any other takers?
I'll get back to you on this one.
Alan, this is what you said:
"but you'd really have to look hard to find a flat-VII in music
before, say, 1880. Yes, Ian, I'm daring you :-)"
So, I found one. A descending bassline, Schenkerism and a later bright
mediant don't alter the simple facts. The four prominent opening
chords of the Waldstein are:
C G Bb F
I V bVII IV
The Subtonic Bb plays a *very* prominent role and sounds very much
like the Subtonic. He's just playing chords. No tune. There's nothing
deceptive about the harsh sequence G to Bb. Its a Power Subtonic.
Tonic C, Dominant G, Subtonic Bb.
It doesn't get better than this.
ian
==============================
"Johnny's to long at the fair"
J. Robinson Wheeler
>
> In article <7as2f1$aka$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <richf...@my-dejanews.com> addressed Alan:
>
> % I hope this foray into the newsgroup isn't going to take too much time away
> % from your continuing work on the Notes-On series! What's going to happen
> % with this when you get through Abbey Road and Let It Be?
>
> I hope that there will be a nice intermezzo with the Rutles, and then
> eventually a book I can buy :-)
If I'm plotting his course correctly, his arcing trajectory will end with
his doing "Free as a Bird" and "Real Love." I'm not sure what he'll do
after that, but if he publishes it, I'll buy one.
And if he doesn't do FAAB and RL, I'll riot!
--
J. Robinson Wheeler
whe...@jump.net http://www.jump.net/~wheeler/jrw/home.html
RAG Seely
wrote:
]
]If I'm plotting his course correctly, his arcing trajectory will end with
]his doing "Free as a Bird" and "Real Love." I'm not sure what he'll do
]after that, but if he publishes it, I'll buy one.
]
]And if he doesn't do FAAB and RL, I'll riot!
But of course, Alan has *already* done FAAB and RL - look on the AWP page
at the RMB web site.
= rags =
<ra...@math.mcgill.ca>
<http://www.math.mcgill.ca/~rags>
Greg Panfile
It might be useful to try and bound this discussion a little bit. First
off, it seems to me that the first interesting and significant, if not
completely the absolute first use of the chord is in A Hard Day's Night.
It doesn't seem to appear in any earlier originals. If someone has found
it previously, please do tell.
Second, it seems to be much more a Lennon trick that spreads to the others.
The most prominent early uses are his, in AHDN and the folkish pieces
You've Got To Hide Your Love Away and I'm A Loser. After that it seems to
spread more to the others and permeate all sorts of types of songs. Again,
if this is wrong, I stand eager to be corrected.
Next, the first place to look is the obvious influences, of which classical
music especially for Lennon is not one. Another influence that could be
pretty much discarded is the British music hall genre, as that seems to be
more McCartney and to have little influence on Lennon.
What remains I think are the following possibilities:
Naked innovation with no prior influence
Modal/folk/skiffle influence
Brill Building/Girl Group influence
The first, of course, can best be arrived at by excluding the rest, the
process of elimination. So before concluding that, we have to look at the
two others first.
Modal/folk... I am not an expert on this, nor on skiffle, but someone with
more knowledge of this area could certainly help out here. My scanty
knowledge leads me to things like the Border Ballads, where in many cases
you have a minor-based song, let's say in E minor, with a D chord. This
isn't really VII because the implicit key is G and you're really dealing
with a vi-V thingie.
Brill Building/Girl Groups... I know this a bit better. Unfortunately I
don't have a comprehensive collection of same prior to early 1963; but it
seems very unlikely to me that those writers did not hit upon this
possibility. Trapped in little rooms, paid on meager contracts, desperate
to evoke pimply hyperboles, how could they not try it sooner or later, even
at random? Following that up, I started to look at some things the Beatles
covered for the BBC, hoping to find one that might fit. I think I came
close, and the winner is:
So How Come No (One Loves Me)
The VII is found in the turnaround at the end of each verse, where it goes
G-F-C-G. Note the interesting key of G here, the same as the three prime
first uses mentioned above. While these can be viewed as passing chords,
it's notable that the whole band does this little lick with full support,
both guitars play the chords all the way through. It also seems that
George and Paul front this one, giving Lennon time to play a bit more
energetically on guitar, and perhaps notice the interesting little trick
played with these chords. The quick movement in this turnaround is
somewhat evocative of Hide Your Love Away, and even moreso of the
turnaround in Get Back though in a different key.
The song is from a 1961 Everly Brothers album which clearly predates AHDN.
I think other instances in the Brill Building/Tin Pan Alley canon await
discovery, but this one is fairly clear and clean. The Beatles, of course,
took it much further and farther, but I don't think they were the first to
come up with it.
http://www.tiac.net/users/gpanfile
Alan W. Pollack
richf...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7as2f1$aka$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <%TCy2.61$8g3.3583@burlma1-snr2>,
>Hi Alan,
>
>I hope this foray into the newsgroup isn't going to take too much time away
What's taking too much time away from my series is the all that stuff that
happens while I'm busy making other plans! The current foray is a mere
bagatelle in context of The Day Job and Raising The Family. At any event,
perhaps Ian and I should take this Beethovenian inquiry out into the
corridor where it so rightly belongs :-) Though a lad IS entitled to listen
to music other than the Beatles, y'know.
>What's going to happen
>with this when you get through Abbey Road and Let It Be?
The end of civilization as we know it :-) But seriously folks ...
- The overall package needs a careful review, cleanup, etc.
- I'd like to see it published in hard covers.
> (I guess this is
>going to take a while, I shouldn't worry about it too much yet.)
Hopefully not more than a couple years. I didn't have any idea what I was
getting into when I published the first Note back in 5/89. Especially given
the vararies of Internet connectivity back in those days (not only no Web,
but not everybody had remote email or Newsgroups even at work!!) I would not
have signed up a priori to do the whole thing.
>
Are you
>going to progress into solo albums?
Probably not. I don't listen very much at all to the solo albums.
At some point when the initial series is finished, I need to go back and do
some "horizontal" analysis of style and technique to compensate for the
extent to which the series is now focused primarily on one song at a time.
In the horizontal context I guess I would find it inevitable to trace the
compositional characteristics of the individual Beatles into their solo
work. But I don't anticipate doing "Notes on Put It There (PIT)."
Thanks for the encouraging feedback.
-- Alan
---
"I suppose I have some rights."
---
ian hammond
>
>It might be useful to try and bound this discussion a little bit. First
>off, it seems to me that the first interesting and significant, if not
>completely the absolute first use of the chord is in A Hard Day's Night.
>It doesn't seem to appear in any earlier originals. If someone has found
>it previously, please do tell.
This is the first Beatle song to use it idiomatically. It does appear
in other songs, but the context is different. For example.
"All My Loving" -- passing chord to dominant.
"I Wanna Be Your Man" -- just colors "Ma-han" on E5-D5.
>Second, it seems to be much more a Lennon trick that spreads to the others.
> The most prominent early uses are his, in AHDN and the folkish pieces
>You've Got To Hide Your Love Away and I'm A Loser. After that it seems to
>spread more to the others and permeate all sorts of types of songs. Again,
>if this is wrong, I stand eager to be corrected.
That's basically correct. Lennon looks at it again in "I'm A Loser" on
Beatles For Sale. Then he really starts to explore the song on
_Help!_. Almost every song of his has the chord there.
>Next, the first place to look is the obvious influences, of which classical
>music especially for Lennon is not one. Another influence that could be
>pretty much discarded is the British music hall genre, as that seems to be
>more McCartney and to have little influence on Lennon.
British Music Hall was fairly cheesy. But you will find the subtonic
in older British pop songs by Noel Coward. "Mad Dogs And Englishmen"
has a bVII-I close. Lennon would have known the song. Everyone did.
>What remains I think are the following possibilities:
>
>Naked innovation with no prior influence
Not on. What changes is the mix, not the ingredients. The mix is very
important. Just 'cos you have bread, cheese, tomato and salami doesn't
mean you know what pizza is.
>Modal/folk/skiffle influence
All of the above would/could have used the chord. But we need to be
more discriminating. The bVII has many different genre uses. Lennon's
use is often quite distinctive. For example, you mentioned Buddy
Holly's "Well Alright". That uses the subtonic in a Gilligan's Island
kind of way, as McCartney later applies the chord on "Another Girl"
(or even The Night Before"). That's quite different to Lennon's
applications of the chord.
<snip>
>Brill Building/Girl Groups... I know this a bit better. Unfortunately I
>don't have a comprehensive collection of same prior to early 1963; but it
>seems very unlikely to me that those writers did not hit upon this
>possibility.
<snip>
>So How Come No (One Loves Me)
>
>The VII is found in the turnaround at the end of each verse, where it goes
>G-F-C-G. Note the interesting key of G here, the same as the three prime
>first uses mentioned above. While these can be viewed as passing chords,
>it's notable that the whole band does this little lick with full support,
>both guitars play the chords all the way through.
<snip>
>The song is from a 1961 Everly Brothers album which clearly predates AHDN.
The Everly Brothers often used the flat-side chords to color a song or
an intro. The Beatles' G-A-B-E lick in "Please Please Me" is certainly
inspired by the Everly Bros.
I chased down the recording information for "Gloria" and "The Last
Time", two early rock songs to clearly use the bVII-IV-I sequence.
Here's what I came up with:
Session Release
Apr64 Jul64 A Hard Day's Night
Jul64 Nov64 Gloria
Jan65 Feb65 The Last Time
But "Gloria" had been part of the Them's set before they played the
Maritime pub in Belfast in April 1964 (a certain Billy Harrison is
said to have come up with the riff). So, as with many ideas whose time
has simply come, we have parallel discovery. "Gloria" was the B-side
of "Baby Please Don't Go".
"The Last Time" was recorded while "Gloria" was still in the charts.
As I said, it is based on a Staple Singers song of the same name. But
I ain't heard that one so far.
But, to take your idea a little further. Its not really the isolated
use of the chord here or there that's important. Anyone, including
Beethoven and Brahms, can use the subtonic. What matters is when the
chord is it becomes an essential ingredient of a genre. In other
words, it's when you come up with the Pizza.
That's what we sense Lennon being responsible for, to a significant
degree. Its the manner in which he explored the chords use in many
different situations. "Gloria" and "The Last Time" don't vary the use.
Lennon tries it everywhere. He uses it in rock songs, folk songs,
ballads. He experiments with the equivalence bVII and v. He tries on
pedal notes.
"Help!" has it as a cadential chord in the verse, as a color chord in
the chorus (like Beethoven's use). Additionally, Lennon has an
unresolved I7 in a plain major diatonic setting at the end of the
chorus, which is, IMO, a related chord.
By _Revolver_ it has been thoroughly integrated into his style and his
Beatle brethren are up to speed. Other people take the idea further.
IV of IV becomes IV of IV of IV and so on.
These days the chord is (still) de rigueur. Its got a bit boring
unless used really well. Lennon's use on "Dear Yoko" was pretty lame.
Its all over Morrisette's first album and used very well.
I spent a year exploring the chord and its ramifications around 1992.
That was fun. There's lots of other consequences. Modulations are
affected. There's a book in it.
Historically it takes on other dimensions. The emphasis on the
sub-dominant in the blues can be seen as part of a general shift
toward the flat-side of the tonic. The crowning glory are the songs
around Peppertime which have nothing that even looks remotely like a
dominant.
Songs like "Hey Joe" and "Maybe I'm Amazed" or "Jumping Jack Flash"
that use cycles of fourths are another boundary of the condition.
Its a very fundamental shift. Probably the first lasting major change
to our western sense of tonality in the last few hundred years. Not
that that matters much. Well, not to me.
Its a plague.
Lennon always was plagal.
ian
Maurizio Codogno
ian hammond <i...@hammo.com> wrote:
Ian:
% Its a plague.
%
% Lennon always was plagal.
Paul was actually semiplagal.
Or at least I don't know how to define the gimmick he often used, ie
I IV (6/4) I
(_Jet_ is the more prominent example which comes to my mind)
ciao, .mau.
ian hammond
wrote:
>In article <36d49766...@news.supernews.com>,
>ian hammond <i...@hammo.com> wrote:
>
>Ian:
>
>% Its a plague.
>%
>% Lennon always was plagal.
>
>Paul was actually semiplagal.
>Or at least I don't know how to define the gimmick he often used, ie
>
>I IV (6/4) I
>
>(_Jet_ is the more prominent example which comes to my mind)
Macca was no flat-side couch potato :-)
"Getting Better" uses that Gospel idiom you mention really well. The
cymbal-to-hand-clap thing in the verse out the [G C/g] movement very
well. The song is so plagal that it drifts in and out of the
sub-dominant to the point that the key center becomes uncertain.
Amazingly, the song has an extraordinarily strong close.
McCartney is inspired herE in part, if not in whole, by the exhaustive
treatment of the idiom given by the Beach Boys.
I think Lennon wrote the last verse of "Getting Better" ("I used to
get mad at my woman"). He drops the pattern G-C-G-C, converting the
verse into a long decorated Indian drone.
McCartney liked to use bVII and bVI as short cadential chords. "For No
One" and "Hello Goodbye" demonstrate these short cadences. Lennon's
"Help!" (verse D-G-A) and "I Don't Want To Spoil The Party" used
similar closing bVII-I chords.
Though the chord works well in all those songs I think that only "I
Don't Want To Spoil The Party" really achieves a cadential feel out of
the subtonic.
For the others, the affect is more of a harmless passing chord. Lennon
gets a similar affect on the demo version of "Bungalow Bill" where he
uses bIV as a cadence (i.e. Ab-D). The chord can be ignored because
the movement to the tonic is already so strong.
McCartney's "Maybe I'm Amazed" uses the Bb-F-C-G-D sequence to express
his plagal amazement in chords. "Oh that magic feeling" (Bb-F-C)
sounds like a sketch for that song. "Hey Jude" was his epic plagal
piece. He plucked the golden apple award with the outro of that little
number.