The Revised Quote Book
ShyDavid
Thu 5 Mar 98 7:28
The Revised Quote Book
Dr. Marty Leipzig
Hello, gang.
Just yesterday in the mail, I received from the Australian bunch the
"Creation Research Foundation" a copy of Laurlie's [Appletoon]
favorite OOC pamphlet. I thought that in order to cut down on wasted
bandwidth, I'd post the whole thing and that way Laurlie can just
quote which number of which reference he's taking out of context;
although he'd probably cite #130 as #1 0.
This is copied exactly from the original (it was scanned in), so all
typos, error and such are noted as the appear in the original. The
"book" is by one A. A. Snelling, a schizophrenic Aussie geologist
(about more later) and is a pinnacle of "Creation Science". (Note:
there's no note about copyright and permission is granted for
electronic disemmination. So there.)
Without further ado...the Revised Quote Book:
1. "Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to
the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly
and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made
necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the
rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away
the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer that died for
our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is
nothing."
G. Richard Bozarth, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Atheist, 20
Sept. 1979, p. 30
2. "I would advise no one to send his child where the Holy Scriptures
are not supreme. Every institution that does not unceasingly pursue
the study of God's word becomes corrupt. Because of this we can see
what kind of people they become in the universities and what they are
like now. Nobody is to blame for this except the pope, the bishops,
and the prelates, who are all charged with training young people. The
universities only ought to turn out men who are experts in the Holy
Scriptures, men who can become bishops and priests, and stand in the
front line against heretics, the devil, and all the world. But where
do you find that? I greatly fear that the universities, unless they
teach the Holy Scriptures diligently and impress them on the young
students, are wide gates to hell."
Martin Luther, "To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation
Concerning the Reform of the Christian Estate, 1520," trans. Charles
M. Jacobs, rev. James Atkinson, The Christian in Society, I (Luther's
Works, ed. James Atkinson, vol. 44), p. 207 (196 6)
3. "Now that the tide has turned, I hope you will be with us once
again as we seize the opportunity in Washington, D.C., while Battling
the reemergence of the grassroots forces of darkness."
Ira Glasser, executive director of the ACLU (American Civil Liberties
Union), "Internal memorandum"
4. "I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be
waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly
perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of
humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians
call divinity in every human being. Thess [sic] teachers must embody
the same selfless dedicationas the most rabid fundamentalist
preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a
classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever
subject they teach, regardless of the educational level -- preschool
day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become
an arena of conflict between the old and the new -- the rotting corpse
of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and
the new faith of humanism."
John Dunphy, A Religion for a New Age, Humanist, Jan.-Feb. 1983, p. 26
5. "The atheist realizes that there must not only be an acceptance of
his right to hold his opinion, but that ultimately his is the job to
turn his culture from religion, to eliminate those irrational ideas
which have held the human race in intellectual slavery."
"The atheist must abandon his defensive positions, take up the cudgels
and go forward, rather than into the retreat of apathy."
Madalyn Murray O'Hair, founder of the American Atheists Organization.
Quotes from her speech at their annual convention in Sacramento,
California, on April 10, 1993 (from C-SPAN)
6. "Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at
conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the
origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin
at conception: it is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of
our species, tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human
sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not
human beings of course. However it could be argued that neither is a
fertilized egg."
Carl Sagan, "Is It Possible To Be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice". Parade
Magazine, 22 April 1990, p. 5
7. "Every one of us began from a dot. A fertilized egg is roughly the
size of the period at the end of this sentence . The momentous meeting
of sperm and egg generally occurs in one of the two fallopian tubes.
One cell becomes two, two becomes four, and by the sixth day the
fertilized egg has become a kind of hollow sphere wandering off to
another realm: the womb. It destroys tissue in its path. It sucks
blood from the capillaries. It establishes itself as a kind of
parasite on the walls of the uterus."
Carl Sagan, "Is It Possible To Be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice". Parade
Magazine, 22 April 1990, p. 6
8. "* By the third week, around the time of the first missed menstrual
period, the forming embryo is about 2 millimeters long and is
developing various body parts. But it looks a little like a segmented
worm."
"* By the end of the fourth week, it's approximately 5 millimeters
(about 1/5 inch) long. It's recognizable as a vertebrate, its
tube-shaped heart is beginning to beat, something like the gill-arches
of a fish or an amphibian have become conspicuous, and there is a
pronounced tail. It looks something like a newt or a tadpole. This is
the end of the first month after conception."
Carl Sagan, "Is It Possible To Be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice". Parade
Magazine, 22 April 1990, p. 6
9. "* By the fifth week, the gross divisions of the brain can be
distinguished. What will later develop into eyes is apparent, and
little buds appear --on their way to becoming arms and legs."
"* By the sixth week, the embryo is 13 millimeters (about 1/2 inch)
long. The eyes are still on the side of the head, as in most animals
and the reptilian face has connected slits where the mouth and nose
eventually will be."
10. "* By the end of the seventh week, the tail is almost gone, and
sexual characteristics can be discerned (although both sexes look
female). The face is mammalian, but somewhat pig-like."
"* By the end of the eighth week, the face resembles a primate, but is
still not quite human."
Carl Sagan, "Is It Possible To Be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice". Parade
Magazine, 22 April 1990, p. 6
11. "Why has it taken 100 years to learn that one of the largest of
all dinosaurs Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus of the school book) has been
wearing the wrong head? That seems rather basic. How did this mix-up
occur; and where has the old fellow's head been all of this time? The
answer to the last question is, of course, that its true head has been
in the museum's research collection for all these many years,
patiently waiting for research to catch up to reality."
Taken from the display notebook at Dinosaur National Park Museum,
Vernal Utah.
12. "At any rate, almost everything in Hawking's book is based on his
fertile imagination and logical speculation, with almost no visible
evidence or proof. This appears to differentiate his work from
fiction, which is almost always based on obvious, demonstrable fact.
In another way, however, physics is a lot like fiction or income tax
calculating, in that when there is a conflict between the world and an
intellectual construct, the author adjusts the world to fit an
imagined plot."
Roger L. Welsch, "Astrophys Ed", Natural History, February 1994, pp.
24, 25
13. "Take black matter, for example. As fate would have it, the most
recent and popular theories in physics just don't work. It's not as if
there are some loose threads around the edges; the theories don't work
at all. If they did, the universe would instantaneously fall in on
itself or fly apart. Now those of us who are not astrophysicists would
probably do something like discard the theories. Not astrophysicists.
They readjust the uncooperative universe to fit their theories,
postulating a gig antic quantity of invisible gravity-producing stuff
they call black matter, even though it's not black and maybe not even
matter. And there you are. Just like that, the modern, popular
theories are back in business.
I can imagine that readers new to physics and its way of doing things
might be skeptical, but those of us who are higher up in the world of
science feel nothing but anticipation in all this theorizing. It
could, after all, be a step toward a newer and even sillier putty."
Roger L. Welsch, "Astrophys Ed", Natural History, February 1994, p. 25
14. "The secrets of evolution are time and death. Time for the slow
accumulations of favorable mutations, and death to make room for new
species."
Carl Sagan, "Cosmos", program entitled "One Voice in the Cosmic
Fugue."
14. "Atheism is the philosophy, both moral and ethical, most perfectly
suited for a scientific civilization. If we work for the American
Atheists today, Atheism will be ready to fill the void of
Christianity's demise when science and evolution triumph.
Without a doubt, humans and civilization are in sore need of the
intellectual cleanness and mental health of Atheism."
G. Richard Bozarth, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Atheist, 20
Sept. 1979, p. 30
15. "These "creation-science" textbooks, if allowed in our schools,
can only serve to increase that mental anguish by teaching that the
Genesis gibberish is a legitimate scientific theory."
G. Richard Bozarth, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Atheist, 20
Sept. 1979, p. 19
16. "Christianity is - must be! totally committed to the special
creation as described in Genesis, and Christianity must fight with its
full might, fair or foul against the theory of evolution."
G. Richard Bozarth, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Atheist, 20
Sept. 1979, p. 19
17. "The day will come when the evidence constantly accumulating
around the evolutionary theory becomes so massively persuasive that
even the last and most fundamental Christian warriors will have to lay
down their arms and surrender unconditionally. I believe that day will
be the end of Christianity."
G. Richard Bozarth, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Atheist, 20
Sept. 1979, p. 30
18. "It becomes clear now that the whole justification of Jesus' life
and death is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden
fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be
redeemed? Without Adam's fall into a life of constant sin terminated
by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None."
G. Richard Bozarth, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Atheist, 20
Sept. 1979, p. 30
19. " That's why the present "religious war" isn't between any forces
of "Good" and "Evil." It is being waged between Media (the State) vs.
Churches (Catholic and otherwise) who are tying up millions of dollars
of valuable property and assets. As Satanists, we have the advantage
of realizing this early in the game. It has never been enough for us
to be atheistic -- we have learned how to smash religious ignorance by
beating them at their own game, using the Christian's own manufactured
fears to destroy them."
Anton Szandor LaVey, "The Devil's Notebook", p. 85
20. "We can use TV as a potent propaganda machine. The stage is set
for the infusion of true Satanic philosophy and potent (emotionally
inspiring) music to accompany the inverted crosses and pentagrams.
Instead of holding our rituals in chambers designed for a few dozen
people, we are moving into auditoriums crowded with ecstatic Satanists
thrusting their fists forward in the sign of the horns."
Anton Szandor LaVey, "The Devil's Notebook", p. 85
41. "It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute
degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their
imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from
continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory
vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes."
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), p.
205
42. "Forget bubbles, comets or ocean vents. Scientists should be
looking at pizza for the answer. I can remember when my college
roommates and I routinely created life every week in our refrigerator.
My theory is that around 4.5 billion years ago, the earth was
bombarded by intergalactic pizzas. These then provided the ideal
breeding ground in which early organisms could thrive and later
evolve."
Mark D. Greene, "How Life Began," Time, 142:8, November 1, 1993
43. "It cannot be accidental, one is tempted to conclude, that the
percentage of salt in our bloodstreams is roughly the same as the
percentage of salt in the oceans of the world. The long and intricate
process by which evolution helped to shape the complex
interrelationship of all living and nonliving things may be explicable
in purely scientific terms, but the simple fact of the living world
and our place on it evokes awe, wonder, a sense of mystery--a
spiritual response when one reflects on its deeper meaning."
Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance", p. 264
44. "Human beings are made up mostly of water, in roughly the same
percentage as water is to the surface of the earth. Our tissues and
membranes, our brains and hearts, our sweat and tears--all reflect the
same recipe for life, in which efficient use is made of those
ingredients available on the surface of the earth..."
"But above all we are oxygen (61 percent) and hydrogen (10 percent),
fused together in the unique molecular combination known as water,
which makes up 71 percent of the human body.
So when environmentalists assert that we are, after all, part of the
earth, it is no mere rhetorical flourish. Our blood even contains
roughly the same percentage of salt as the ocean, where the first life
forms evolved. They eventually brought onto the land a self-contained
store of the sea water to which we are still connected chemically and
biologically. Little wonder, then, that water carries such great
spiritual significance in most religions, from the water of Christian
baptism to Hinduism 's sacred water of life."
Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance", pp. 99-100
45. "The major global cooling period that gradually took place more
than 5 million years ago corresponds with the appearance of the first
hominids, called australopithecines. It happened because--in the view
of many scientists--at least one species o f tree-dwelling ape was
able to adapt to the disappearance of its forest habitat by learning
to forage on the ground and walk on two legs, leaving hands--which had
evolved to grasp tree limbs- -free to hold and carry food and objects,
some of which later became tools."
"The new discoveries relating the emergence of Homo sapiens to global
climate changes have solved one of the mysteries in the human story by
providing, at least in ecological terms, the missing link in the
history of evolution."
Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance", p. 63
46. "Human evolution, of course, is responsible for our very long
period of childhood, during much of which we are almost completely
dependent on our parents. As Ashley Montagu first pointed out decades
ago, evolution encouraged the development of larger and larger human
brains, but our origins in the primate family placed a limit on the
ability of the birth canal to accommodate babies with ever-larger
heads. Nature's solution was to encourage an extremely long period of
dependence on the nurturing parent during infancy and childhood,
allowing both mind and body to continue developing in an almost
gestational way long after birth."
Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance", p. 229
47. "I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it.
I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was
intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it
assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say
one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a
creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist.
I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so
strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
Isaac Asimov, "Free Inquiry", Spring 1982, vol. 2 no. 2, p. 9
48. "Everybody knows fossils are fickle; bones will sing any song you
want to hear." J. Shreeve, "Argument over a woman", 1990, Discover,
Vol. 11 (8), p. 58
49. "Imaginations run riot in conjuring up an image of our most
ancient ancestor--the creature that gave rise to both apes and humans.
This ancestor is not apparent in ape or human anatomy nor in the
fossil record."
"...anatomy and the fossil record cannot be relied upon for
evolutionary lineages. Yet palaeontologists persist in doing just
this."
J. Lowenstein and A. Zihlman, "The invisible ape", New Scientist, Vol.
120 (1641), pp. 56, 57, 1988
50. "Hind limbs of Basilosaurus appear to have been too small relative
to body size...to have assisted in swimming, and they could not
possibly have supported the body on land. However, maintenance of some
function is likely...The pelvis of modern whales serves to anchor
reproductive organs, even though functional hind limbs are lacking.
Thus hind limbs of Basilosaurus are most plausibly interpreted as
accessories facilitating reproduction."
Philip D. Gingerich, B. Holly Smith, Elwyn L. Simons, "Hind limbs of
Eocene Basilosaurus: evidence of feet in whales", Science, Vol. 249,
13 July 1990, p. 156
61. "Actually, there is superabundant evidence for animals evolving
under our eyes: British moths becoming darker since the Industrial
Revolution (industrial melanization [sic]), insects evolving DDT
resistance since World War II, malaria parasites evolving chloroquine
resistance in the last two decades, and new strains of flu virus
evolving every few years to infect us."
Jared Diamond, "Who Are the Jews?", Natural History Vol. 102, No. 11,
November 1993. p. 19,
62. "According to one recent estimate, nearly 80 percent of all
four-legged land animals disappeared at the end of the Permian."
"Fading slowly, the amphibians were then almost knocked out of the
evolutionary race: Only one out of the four existing orders of these
animals survived through the end of the Permian to see the dawn of the
next geologic period, the Triassic."
"...the mammal-like reptiles, fared no better. Of the 50 genera of
these creatures that lived during the Permian period, only one, the
genus, Dicynodon made it into the Triassic."
Joseph Alper, "Earth's Near-Death Experience", Earth Vol. 3, No. 1,
January 1994, p. 44
63. "...it was even worse for life in the sea."
"An estimated 96 percent of all marine species disappeared forever."
"The Permian crisis was so overwhelming it struck down entire groups
of sea creatures. For example, all of the many species of tabulate and
rugose corals went extinct. Also gone for good were the three existing
orders of crinoids, or sea lilies-- flowerlike invertebrate animals
that attached themselves to the seafloor with slender stalks and
gathered food with outstretched tentacles. The ammonoids, elegant
spiral-shelled creatures whose bodies resembled those of modern-day
squid, nearly disappeared forever. And the brachiopods, a phylum of
marine invertebrates comprising numerous species of creatures with
clamlike shells, similarly came within a hair's breadth of oblivion."
Joseph Alper, "Earth's Near-Death Experience", Earth Vol. 3, No. 1,
January 1994, p. 44
64. ""When paleontologists see Archaeopteryx, they see an earth-bound
dinosaur that somehow mysteriously sprouted feathers for swatting
insects or some other purpose, and they say flight originated from the
ground up." Feduccia says. "However, when most ornithologists see
Archaeopteryx, they see a flying bird because everything about
feathers says flight to them. The conclusion we have drawn is that
flight originated from trees down, which makes a lot more sense.""
Alan Feduccia, Professor of biology at University of North Carolina,
Chapel Hill, "News Notes". Geotimes. April 1993: p. 6
65. "Many animals which are well-known and accepted were once
controversial -- or at least "unexpected." Some of the more
interesting of these cryptozoological precedents are:
* The gorilla, largest of all the primates, discovered in Central
Africa in 1847;
* Baird's tapir, discovered in Central America in 1863;
* The giant panda, discovered in China in 1869, but not collected
alive until 1936;
* Przewalski's horse, discovered in Mongolia in 1881;
* The mountain gorilla, a subspecies, discovered in East Africa in
1902;
* The okapi, a fossil giraffid, discovered in Zaire in 1901;
* The pygmy chimpanzee, described in 1929, but not brought back to
Europe from Zaire until the late 1930's;
* The coelacanth, a 6-foot Mesozoic fish (a true "living fossil"),
discovered in South Africa in 1938;
* The Chacoan peccary, a Pleistocene fossil form, discovered alive in
Paraguay in 1975;
* Megamouth, a 15-foot shark, representing a completely new species,
genus, and family, discovered in 1976."
International Society of Cryptozoology Invitation For Membership
66. "Today we are confronted with a wide variety of reports of such
"unexpected" animals -- often appearing under the popular label of
"monster." Some of those which the Society is concerned with are:
* Reports of unusual felids, such as "big cats" in Britain,
continental Europe, and Australia, and large, unknown cats reported in
Africa and South America:
* Reports of living thylacines in Tasmania ("Tasmanian tigers") and
mainland Australian, and possibly other thought-extinct marsupials,
such as Thylacoleo ;
* Reports of giant individuals of known species, such as giant great
white sharks and giant anaconda snakes in South America;
* Reports of giant octopuses spanning 50-100 feet or more;
* Reports of "sea serpents" in many global marine environments, which
may represent unknown species of large seals or supposedly extinct
primitive whales known as archaeocetes;
* Reports of northern latitude "lake monsters" in Loch Ness, and
several other Scottish lochs, and in Irish, Swedish, Soviet, Canadian
and U.S.A. lakes;
* Reports of large, long-necked animals in the swamps of Central
Africa (Mokele-Mbembe) said to resemble Mesozoic sauropod dinosaurs,
and flying animals resembling Mesozoic pterosaurs;
* Reports of surviving Pleistocene megafauna, such as mammoths in
Siberia and giant ground sloths in South America;
* Reports of large hominoids in the Himalayan region (Yeti), Soviet
Union and Mongolia (Almas), China (Wildman), and North America
(Sasquatch)."
International Society of Cryptozoology Invitation For Membership
67. "Insect resistance to a pesticide was first reported in 1947 for
the Housefly (Musca domestica) with respect to DDT. Since then
resistance to one or more pesticides has been reported in at least 225
species of insects and other arthropods. The genetic variants required
for resistance to the most diverse kinds of pesticides were apparently
present in every one of the populations exposed to these man-made
compounds."
Francisco J. Ayala. "The Mechanisms of Evolution", Scientific
American, Sept. 1978, p. 65
68. "Scientists at the University of Alberta have revived bacteria
from members of the historic Franklin expedition who mysteriously
perished in the Arctic nearly 150 years ago. Not only are the six
strains of bacteria almost certainly the oldest eve r revived, says
medical microbiologist Dr. Kinga Kowalewska-Grochowska, Three of them
also happen to be resistant to antibiotics,'...
"In this case, the antibiotics clindamycin and cefoxitin, both of
which developed more than a century after the men died, were among
those used."
Ed Struzik, Dr. Kinga Kowalewska-Grochowska, "Ancient bacteria
revived", Sunday Herald, 16 Sept. 1990
69. "Darwin calculated that at the rate of one baby elephant per
breeding couple every 10 years, starting with a single pair, there
would be 15 million elephants in only 500 years."
Niles Eldredge, "Speculations: Is Evolution Progress?", Science
Digest, Sept. 1983, p. 40
70. "But the reports of Eve's death may have been greatly exaggerated.
Indeed, no one argues with the idea that all modern humans inherited
their mitochondrial DNA from one common female ancestor. But what is
in dispute is the hypothesis first put forth in 1987 by molecular
anthropologist Allan Wilson of University of California, Berkeley who
claimed to know Eve's age and whereabouts-that she lived about 200,000
years ago in Africa."
Ann Gibbons, "Mitochondrial Eve: Wounded, But Not Dead Yet", Science,
Vol. 257, 14 August 1992, p. 873
91. "But it was the chief object of the lecturer to the congregation
gathered in St. Mary's, Oxford, thirty-one years ago, to prove to
them, by evidence gathered with no little labour and marshalled with
much skill, that one group of historical works was exempt from the
general rule; and that the narratives contained in the canonical
Scriptures are free from any admixture of error. With justice and
candour [sic], the lecturer impresses upon his hearers that the
special distinction of Christianity, among the religions of the world,
lies in its claim to be historical; to be surely rounded upon events
which have happened, exactly as they are declared to have happened in
its sacred books; which are true, that is, in the sense that the
statement about the execution of Charles the First is true."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897, p. 206
92. "Further, it is affirmed that the New Testament presupposes the
historical exactness of the Old Testament; that the points of contact
of "sacred" and "profane" history are innumerable; and that the
demonstrations of the falsity of the Hebrew records, especially in
regard to those narratives which are assumed to be true in the New
Testament, would be fatal to Christian theology."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897, pp.
206, 207
93. "My utmost ingenuity does not enable me to discover a flaw in the
argument thus briefly summarised. I am fairly at a loss to comprehend
how any one, for a moment, can doubt that Christian theology must
stand or fall with the historical trustworthiness of the Jewish
Scriptures. The very conception of the Messiah, or Christ, is
inextricably interwoven with Jewish history; the identification of
Jesus of Nazareth with that Messiah rests upon the interpretation of
passages of the Hebrew Scripture s which have no evidential value
unless they possess the historical character assigned to them."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897, pp.
207, 208
94. "Thus, in view, not, I repeat, of the recondite speculations of
infidel philosophers, but in the face of the plainest and most
commonplace of ascertained physical facts, the story of the Noachian
Deluge has no more claim to credit than has that of Deucalion; and
whether it was, or was not, suggested by the familiar acquaintance of
its originators with the effects of unusually great overflows of the
Tigris and Euphrates, it is utterly devoid of historical truth."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897, p. 226
95. "The only way of escape, if it be a way of escape, from the
conclusions which I have just indicated, is the supposition that all
these different equine forms have been created separately at separate
epochs of time; and, I repeat, that of such an hypothesis as this
there neither is, for can be, any scientific evidence; and, assuredly,
so far as I know, there is none which is supported, or pretends to be
supported, by evidence or authority of any other kind."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897, p. 133
96. "I can but think that the time will come when such suggestions as
these, such obvious attempts to escape the force of demonstration,
will be put upon the same footing as the supposition made by some
writers, who are I believe not completely extinct at present, that
fossils are mere simulacra, are not indications of the former
existence of the animals to which they seem to belong; but that they
are either sports of Nature, or special creations, intended--as I
heard suggested the other day--to test our faith."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897
97. "If the Gospels truly report that which an incarnation of the God
of Truth communicated to the world, then it surely is absurd to attend
to any other evidence touching matters about which he made any clear
statement, or the truth of which is distinctly implied by his words.
If the exact historical truth of the Gospels is an axiom of
Christianity, it is as just and right for a Christian to say, Let us
"close our ears against suggestions" of scientific critics, as it is
for the man of science to refuse to waste his time upon
circle-squarers and flat-earth fanatics."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897, p. 230
98. "Now, whatever imperfections may yet obscure the full value of the
Mesopotamian records, everything that has been clearly ascertained
tends to the conclusion that the assignment of no more than 4000 years
to the period between the time of the origin of mankind and that of
Augustus Caesar, is wholly inadmissible. Therefore the Biblical
chronology, which Canon Rawlinson trusted so implicitly in 1859, is
relegated by all serious critics to the domain of fable."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", 1897, pp.
211, 212
99. "...I can but admire the courage and clear foresight of the
Anglican divine who tells us that we must be prepared to choose
between the trustworthiness of scientific method and the
trustworthiness of that which the Church declares to be Divine
authority. For, to my mind, this declaration of war to the knife
against secular science, even in its most elementary form this
rejection, without a moment's hesitation, of any and all evidence
which conflicts with theological dogma--is the only position which is
logically reconcilable with the axioms of orthodoxy."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", pp. 229, 230
100. " That is what I mean by demonstrative evidence of evolution. An
inductive hypothesis is said to be demonstrated when the facts are
shown to be in entire accordance with it. If that is not scientific
proof, there are no merely inductive conclusions which can be said to
be proved. And the doctrine of evolution, at the present time, rests
upon exactly as secure a foundation as the Copernican theory of the
motions of the heavenly bodies did at the time of its promulgation.
Its logical basis is precisely of the same character--the coincidence
of the observed facts with theoretical requirements."
Thomas H. Huxley , "Science And Hebrew Tradition Essays", pp. 132, 133
121. "Could it be that God's purposes are somehow fulfilled through
our experiencing the "random, wasteful, inefficiencies" of the natural
realm He created?
Were conditions significantly different in the past? Is the suffering
and death of grasses, leaves, and protozoa that must have occurred
before Adam and Eve sinned (even in Morris's system of theology)
totally tragic, meaningless, and without any purpose?"
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 88
122. "Such creationists brand day-age proponents, like myself, who
deny any significant biological evolution over time scales long or
short, as evolutionists, while they themselves seem to concede
substantial biological evolution over very short time scales."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 83
123. "Worship is the key evidence of the spiritual quality of the
human race, and the universality of worship is evidenced in altars,
temples, and religious relics of all kinds. Burial of dead, use of
tools, or even painting do not qualify as evidence of the spirit, for
non-spirit beings such as bower birds, elephants, and chimpanzees
engage in such activities to a limited extent.
Bipedal, tool-using, large-brained primates (called hominids by
anthropologists) may have roamed the earth as long ago as one million
years, but religious relics and altars date back only 8,000 to 24,000
years. Thus, the secular archaeological date f or the first spirit
creatures is in complete agreement with the biblical date.
Some differences, however, between the Bible and secular anthropology
remain. By the biblical definition, these hominids may have been
intelligent mammals, but they were not humans."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 141
124. "Much as circumcision divided the first-century church, I see the
creation date issue dividing the church of this century. As
circumcision distorted the gospel and hampered evangelism, so, too,
does young-universe creationism."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 162
125. "For example, God certainly had the power to alter the laws of
physics at the instant that Adam sinned against God. But we can be
confident that He did not since the astronomical record shows no
evidence of such an alteration."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 55
126. "Since the Bible declares that only God and His Word are truth,
these creationists consider information from any source outside the
Bible as inferior and suspect."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 55
127. "...we can say that carnivorous activity results from the laws of
thermodynamics, not from sin."
"But even plants suffer when they are eaten. They experience bleeding,
bruising, scarring, and death. Why is the suffering of plants
acceptable and not that of animals? Consider, too, how little concern
we feel over the death of insects. Why?"
..."we cannot realistically compare the suffering and death of animals
to the suffering and death of humans."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 63
128. "Since they believe that all of today's land animals are
descended from the creatures on Noah's ark, and since they recognize
the ark as too small and the caretakers on board too few to preserve
all the land animals on the earth today, they conclude Noah took two
of every order, genus, or subgenus rather than two of every species.
The many species of today are presumed to arise through biological
evolution from the orders and genera on Noah's ark!"
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos"
129. "On the other hand, God's revelation through nature provides
overwhelming evidence that all these aspects indeed did exist for a
long time period previous to God's creating Adam."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 69
130. "The most reliable and conservative Hebrew scholarship I have
read places the biblical date for the creation of Adam and Eve between
about 10,000 and 35,000 years ago (with the outside limits at about
6,000 and 60,000 years)."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 140
131. "This denial of physical reality is not limited to reinterpreting
astronomical bodies and phenomena. According to young-universe
creationists, the fossils do not represent ancient creatures; nor are
coal, oil, gas, and top soil the remains of thousand of previous
generations of life; nor do the stratified layers of the earth's crust
testify of rocks subjected to past pressures, erosions, and stresses;
nor do tree rings, coral banding, and ice layers represent real years
past; nor does the erosion of craters and mountains on the earth and
on the planets and moons result from ongoing natural processes."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 123
132. "Few christians [sic] are yet aware of the anti-physical tendency
within young-universe creationism. Most creationists are unaware of it
themselves. As an example, young-universe creationists deny the
reality of the universe astronomers observe and me asure [sic]."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 122
133. "An old-earth perspective is also depicted as a fundamental
challenge to the authority of the Bible. Referring to Christians who
accept "billions of years," Ham says, "They have put man in judgment
of God. Man becomes the authority." He continue s with this emotional
appeal: "For me to accept an old age (billions of years) for the earth
is to accept that fallible man's fallible methods are in authority
over God's infallible Word. I can't do that!"."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 85
134. "...a beginning not in the extreme distant past but only a few
billion years ago. Thus, when I encountered the six creation days of
Genesis, it seemed possible that the word day could refer to longer
periods than twenty-four hours. But I wasn't sure."
Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 145
135. "I see no reason for attributing to man a significance in kind
different from that which belongs to a baboon or a grain of sand."
Oliver Wendell Holmes, "Abortion A Rational Look At An Emotional
Issue", R. C. Sproul, p. 39
- 30 -
Well, gang, there you have it. Quite a compilation, isn't it? Looks
like they got all those vicious Xtian boogeymen like Satanists,
atheists and even Oliver Wendell Holmes.
Maybe some day, they'll actually pen something original themselves and
not have to rely on ripping others from context.
* Origin: LIVE! from the K/T Impact Point. <m...@qatar.net.qa>
(1:140/12.102)
Harlequin
news:70fedc0c.04030...@posting.google.com:
> The Revised Quote Book
> Thu 5 Mar 98 7:28
>
> The Revised Quote Book
> Dr. Marty Leipzig
>
> Hello, gang.
>
> Just yesterday in the mail, I received from the Australian bunch the
> "Creation Research Foundation" a copy of Laurlie's [Appletoon]
> favorite OOC pamphlet. I thought that in order to cut down on wasted
> bandwidth, I'd post the whole thing and that way Laurlie can just
> quote which number of which reference he's taking out of context;
> although he'd probably cite #130 as #1 0.
This is Answers in Genesis.
> This is copied exactly from the original (it was scanned in), so all
> typos, error and such are noted as the appear in the original. The
> "book" is by one A. A. Snelling, a schizophrenic Aussie geologist
> (about more later) and is a pinnacle of "Creation Science". (Note:
> there's no note about copyright
No note about copyright is required. It is _automatically_ copyrighted.
> and permission is granted for
> electronic disemmination. So there.)
An explicate note that allows it to be copied would allow it to be
copied. Though I think that one could also go for fair use
if it is used for criticism. Hint Hint.
> Without further ado...the Revised Quote Book:
Comments aimed at AiG's book and not Desertphile.
> 1. "Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to
> the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly
> and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made
> necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the
> rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away
> the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer that died for
> our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is
> nothing."
>
> G. Richard Bozarth, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Atheist, 20
> Sept. 1979, p. 30
I guess that just because one can quote a radical atheist means that
that the theistic evolutionists are wrong....
> 2. "I would advise no one to send his child where the Holy Scriptures
> are not supreme. Every institution that does not unceasingly pursue
> the study of God's word becomes corrupt. Because of this we can see
> what kind of people they become in the universities and what they are
> like now. Nobody is to blame for this except the pope, the bishops,
> and the prelates, who are all charged with training young people. The
> universities only ought to turn out men who are experts in the Holy
> Scriptures, men who can become bishops and priests, and stand in the
> front line against heretics, the devil, and all the world. But where
> do you find that? I greatly fear that the universities, unless they
> teach the Holy Scriptures diligently and impress them on the young
> students, are wide gates to hell."
>
> Martin Luther, "To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation
> Concerning the Reform of the Christian Estate, 1520," trans. Charles
> M. Jacobs, rev. James Atkinson, The Christian in Society, I (Luther's
> Works, ed. James Atkinson, vol. 44), p. 207 (196 6)
I think a few nice Luther quotes about the Jews, the Sun going around
the Earth, etc. would be nice here.
> 3. "Now that the tide has turned, I hope you will be with us once
> again as we seize the opportunity in Washington, D.C., while Battling
> the reemergence of the grassroots forces of darkness."
>
> Ira Glasser, executive director of the ACLU (American Civil Liberties
> Union), "Internal memorandum"
I don't see that point of this quote...
> 4. "I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be
> waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly
> perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of
> humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians
> call divinity in every human being. Thess [sic] teachers must embody
> the same selfless dedicationas the most rabid fundamentalist
> preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a
> classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever
> subject they teach, regardless of the educational level -- preschool
> day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become
> an arena of conflict between the old and the new -- the rotting corpse
> of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and
> the new faith of humanism."
>
> John Dunphy, A Religion for a New Age, Humanist, Jan.-Feb. 1983, p. 26
>
> 5. "The atheist realizes that there must not only be an acceptance of
> his right to hold his opinion, but that ultimately his is the job to
> turn his culture from religion, to eliminate those irrational ideas
> which have held the human race in intellectual slavery."
>
> "The atheist must abandon his defensive positions, take up the cudgels
> and go forward, rather than into the retreat of apathy."
>
> Madalyn Murray O'Hair, founder of the American Atheists Organization.
> Quotes from her speech at their annual convention in Sacramento,
> California, on April 10, 1993 (from C-SPAN)
Might be hard to verify and this individual was know as being a bit
of a radical. If she is fair game to quote that how about radical
YECs who have stuck their feet into their mouths.
> 6. "Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at
> conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the
> origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin
> at conception: it is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of
> our species, tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human
> sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not
> human beings of course. However it could be argued that neither is a
> fertilized egg."
>
> Carl Sagan, "Is It Possible To Be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice". Parade
> Magazine, 22 April 1990, p. 5
What does this have to do with evolution. This reasoning could be applied
even in a YEC universe.
[snip more Sagan]
> 11. "Why has it taken 100 years to learn that one of the largest of
> all dinosaurs Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus of the school book) has been
> wearing the wrong head? That seems rather basic. How did this mix-up
> occur; and where has the old fellow's head been all of this time? The
> answer to the last question is, of course, that its true head has been
> in the museum's research collection for all these many years,
> patiently waiting for research to catch up to reality."
>
> Taken from the display notebook at Dinosaur National Park Museum,
> Vernal Utah.
What does this have to so with evolution?
Cosmology has nothing to do with evolution or even the origin of the
Solar System.
> 14. "The secrets of evolution are time and death. Time for the slow
> accumulations of favorable mutations, and death to make room for new
> species."
>
> Carl Sagan, "Cosmos", program entitled "One Voice in the Cosmic
> Fugue."
>
> 14. "Atheism is the philosophy, both moral and ethical, most perfectly
> suited for a scientific civilization. If we work for the American
> Atheists today, Atheism will be ready to fill the void of
> Christianity's demise when science and evolution triumph.
>
> Without a doubt, humans and civilization are in sore need of the
> intellectual cleanness and mental health of Atheism."
[snip more Bozarth from American Atheist]
> 19. " That's why the present "religious war" isn't between any forces
> of "Good" and "Evil." It is being waged between Media (the State) vs.
> Churches (Catholic and otherwise) who are tying up millions of dollars
> of valuable property and assets. As Satanists, we have the advantage
> of realizing this early in the game. It has never been enough for us
> to be atheistic -- we have learned how to smash religious ignorance by
> beating them at their own game, using the Christian's own manufactured
> fears to destroy them."
>
> Anton Szandor LaVey, "The Devil's Notebook", p. 85
What is the point for quoting such a fringe figure who represents
the views of practically no one.
> 20. "We can use TV as a potent propaganda machine. The stage is set
> for the infusion of true Satanic philosophy and potent (emotionally
> inspiring) music to accompany the inverted crosses and pentagrams.
> Instead of holding our rituals in chambers designed for a few dozen
> people, we are moving into auditoriums crowded with ecstatic Satanists
> thrusting their fists forward in the sign of the horns."
>
> Anton Szandor LaVey, "The Devil's Notebook", p. 85
I doubt that he has any media power or assets.
> 41. "It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute
> degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their
> imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from
> continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory
> vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes."
>
> Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), p.
> 205
>
> 42. "Forget bubbles, comets or ocean vents. Scientists should be
> looking at pizza for the answer. I can remember when my college
> roommates and I routinely created life every week in our refrigerator.
> My theory is that around 4.5 billion years ago, the earth was
> bombarded by intergalactic pizzas. These then provided the ideal
> breeding ground in which early organisms could thrive and later
> evolve."
>
> Mark D. Greene, "How Life Began," Time, 142:8, November 1, 1993
Clearly an analogy....
> 43. "It cannot be accidental, one is tempted to conclude, that the
> percentage of salt in our bloodstreams is roughly the same as the
> percentage of salt in the oceans of the world. The long and intricate
> process by which evolution helped to shape the complex
> interrelationship of all living and nonliving things may be explicable
> in purely scientific terms, but the simple fact of the living world
> and our place on it evokes awe, wonder, a sense of mystery--a
> spiritual response when one reflects on its deeper meaning."
>
> Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance", p. 264
Gore is not a biologist. And he is wrong.
[Snip Al Gore]
> 47. "I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it.
> I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was
> intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it
> assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say
> one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a
> creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist.
> I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so
> strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
>
> Isaac Asimov, "Free Inquiry", Spring 1982, vol. 2 no. 2, p. 9
What does a chemically trained science fiction/pop science writer
have to due with evolution.
This actually _hurts_ the YEC case.
> 63. "...it was even worse for life in the sea."
>
> "An estimated 96 percent of all marine species disappeared forever."
>
> "The Permian crisis was so overwhelming it struck down entire groups
> of sea creatures. For example, all of the many species of tabulate and
> rugose corals went extinct. Also gone for good were the three existing
> orders of crinoids, or sea lilies-- flowerlike invertebrate animals
> that attached themselves to the seafloor with slender stalks and
> gathered food with outstretched tentacles. The ammonoids, elegant
> spiral-shelled creatures whose bodies resembled those of modern-day
> squid, nearly disappeared forever. And the brachiopods, a phylum of
> marine invertebrates comprising numerous species of creatures with
> clamlike shells, similarly came within a hair's breadth of oblivion."
>
> Joseph Alper, "Earth's Near-Death Experience", Earth Vol. 3, No. 1,
> January 1994, p. 44
>
> 64. ""When paleontologists see Archaeopteryx, they see an earth-bound
> dinosaur that somehow mysteriously sprouted feathers for swatting
> insects or some other purpose, and they say flight originated from the
> ground up." Feduccia says. "However, when most ornithologists see
> Archaeopteryx, they see a flying bird because everything about
> feathers says flight to them. The conclusion we have drawn is that
> flight originated from trees down, which makes a lot more sense.""
>
> Alan Feduccia, Professor of biology at University of North Carolina,
> Chapel Hill, "News Notes". Geotimes. April 1993: p. 6
Feduccia is a fringe viewpoint.
> 65. "Many animals which are well-known and accepted were once
> controversial -- or at least "unexpected." Some of the more
> interesting of these cryptozoological precedents are:
>
> * The gorilla, largest of all the primates, discovered in Central
> Africa in 1847;
>
> * Baird's tapir, discovered in Central America in 1863;
>
> * The giant panda, discovered in China in 1869, but not collected
> alive until 1936;
>
> * Przewalski's horse, discovered in Mongolia in 1881;
>
> * The mountain gorilla, a subspecies, discovered in East Africa in
> 1902;
>
> * The okapi, a fossil giraffid, discovered in Zaire in 1901;
>
> * The pygmy chimpanzee, described in 1929, but not brought back to
> Europe from Zaire until the late 1930's;
>
> * The coelacanth, a 6-foot Mesozoic fish (a true "living fossil"),
> discovered in South Africa in 1938;
>
> * The Chacoan peccary, a Pleistocene fossil form, discovered alive in
> Paraguay in 1975;
>
> * Megamouth, a 15-foot shark, representing a completely new species,
> genus, and family, discovered in 1976."
>
> International Society of Cryptozoology Invitation For Membership
The point of this is? Maybe they think we will discover a T-Rex?
Quack science ahoy!
Again that does not help creationism...
> 70. "But the reports of Eve's death may have been greatly exaggerated.
> Indeed, no one argues with the idea that all modern humans inherited
> their mitochondrial DNA from one common female ancestor. But what is
> in dispute is the hypothesis first put forth in 1987 by molecular
> anthropologist Allan Wilson of University of California, Berkeley who
> claimed to know Eve's age and whereabouts-that she lived about 200,000
> years ago in Africa."
>
> Ann Gibbons, "Mitochondrial Eve: Wounded, But Not Dead Yet", Science,
> Vol. 257, 14 August 1992, p. 873
Obviously they want it appear that the Biblical Eve was discovered.
[snip T.H. Huxley]
> 121. "Could it be that God's purposes are somehow fulfilled through
> our experiencing the "random, wasteful, inefficiencies" of the natural
> realm He created?
>
> Were conditions significantly different in the past? Is the suffering
> and death of grasses, leaves, and protozoa that must have occurred
> before Adam and Eve sinned (even in Morris's system of theology)
> totally tragic, meaningless, and without any purpose?"
>
> Hugh Ross, "The Creator and the Cosmos", p. 88
A creationist.
[snip more Ross]
> Well, gang, there you have it. Quite a compilation, isn't it? Looks
> like they got all those vicious Xtian boogeymen like Satanists,
> atheists and even Oliver Wendell Holmes.
>
> Maybe some day, they'll actually pen something original themselves and
> not have to rely on ripping others from context.
Yep. Quotes are the replacement for evidence.
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"
I am Mike and I approve this message.
david ford
> The Revised Quote Book
> Thu 5 Mar 98 7:28
>
> The Revised Quote Book
> Dr. Marty Leipzig
>
> Hello, gang.
>
> Just yesterday in the mail, I received from the Australian bunch the
> "Creation Research Foundation" a copy of Laurlie's [Appletoon]
> favorite OOC pamphlet. I thought that in order to cut down on wasted
> bandwidth, I'd post the whole thing and that way Laurlie can just
> quote which number of which reference he's taking out of context;
> although he'd probably cite #130 as #1 0.
>
> This is copied exactly from the original (it was scanned in), so all
> typos, error and such are noted as the appear in the original. The
> "book" is by one A. A. Snelling, a schizophrenic Aussie geologist
> (about more later) and is a pinnacle of "Creation Science". (Note:
> there's no note about copyright and permission is granted for
> electronic disemmination. So there.)
>
> Without further ado...the Revised Quote Book:
Quotes 21-40 are missing.
david ford
> to body size...to have assisted in swimming, and they could not
> possibly have supported the body on land. However, maintenance of some
> function is likely...The pelvis of modern whales serves to anchor
> reproductive organs, even though functional hind limbs are lacking.
> Thus hind limbs of Basilosaurus are most plausibly interpreted as
> accessories facilitating reproduction."
>
> Philip D. Gingerich, B. Holly Smith, Elwyn L. Simons, "Hind limbs of
> Eocene Basilosaurus: evidence of feet in whales", Science, Vol. 249,
> 13 July 1990, p. 156
_Basilosaurus_'s purported vestigial leg
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970709233733.17288H-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
Bogus 'Vestigial Leg' Claims
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.9910142302001.6397-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
Tracy Hamilton
"david ford" <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.04030...@posting.google.com...
> > 50. "Hind limbs of Basilosaurus appear to have been too small relative
> > to body size...to have assisted in swimming, and they could not
> > possibly have supported the body on land. However, maintenance of some
> > function is likely...The pelvis of modern whales serves to anchor
> > reproductive organs, even though functional hind limbs are lacking.
> > Thus hind limbs of Basilosaurus are most plausibly interpreted as
> > accessories facilitating reproduction."
> >
> > Philip D. Gingerich, B. Holly Smith, Elwyn L. Simons, "Hind limbs of
> > Eocene Basilosaurus: evidence of feet in whales", Science, Vol. 249,
> > 13 July 1990, p. 156
>
> _Basilosaurus_'s purported vestigial leg
A better heading would be David Ford makes a stupid argument.
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970709233733.17288H-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
Let me instead take the vestigial wings of an ostrich, and see where the
bogosities are introduced into the argument:
<Begin bogosity>
_Assuming_, as an evolutionist might like to _assume_, that they were
wings to begin with, then yes, they are vestigial wings:
Statement: Evolution is true.
Q: How do you know evolution is true?
A: We have evidence for evolution's truth from this vestigial wing,
showing that the organism evolved from a predecessor having full-
length wings.
Q: How do you know that it is a vestigial wing?
A: We know that it is a vestigial wing because the thing the thing no
longer functions as a wing.
Q: How do you know that it originally was a wing?
A: We know that it was originally a wing because it evolved from a
predecessor with wings.
Questioner: Stop right there. You're attempting to prove evolution's
truth by saying that this thing evolved. In other words, in
attempting to prove that evolution is true, you make use of the
assumption that evolution has happened. You are assuming the
truth of your conclusion in an attempt to prove your conclusion.
This is illogical and very poor reasoning. Are _all_ your
arguments for the blind watchmaker thesis this rotten?
<End bogosity>
Now, even a child could identify that an ostrich had wings
and that they do no use them to fly. Even a child can tell you
what a kneecap is found on, as well as a femur.
From the arguments made by creationists,
creationism introduces mental and/or moral deficiencies
I can ill afford.
> Bogus 'Vestigial Leg' Claims
>
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.9910142302001.6397-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
Yes, your claims there were.
Tracy P. Hamilton
Eros
> deser...@hotmail.com (ShyDavid) wrote in
> news:70fedc0c.04030...@posting.google.com:
>
> > The Revised Quote Book
> > Thu 5 Mar 98 7:28
> >
> > The Revised Quote Book
> > Dr. Marty Leipzig
> >
> > Hello, gang.
> >
> > Just yesterday in the mail, I received from the Australian bunch the
> > "Creation Research Foundation" a copy of Laurlie's [Appletoon]
> > favorite OOC pamphlet. I thought that in order to cut down on wasted
> > bandwidth, I'd post the whole thing and that way Laurlie can just
> > quote which number of which reference he's taking out of context;
> > although he'd probably cite #130 as #1 0.
>
> This is Answers in Genesis.
Yes, in a way. "The Revised Quote Book" was published in 1990 by the
Creation Science Foundation, who changed their name on 10th November
1997 to "Answers in Genesis". (some say due to veiled threats of a
class action by the scientific community in Australia over the use of
the word "science" in their name. AiG of course deny this.)
The original "Quote Book" had so many errors (not even counting the
out-of-context material) that the CSF was forced by revise it after a
number of irate, misquoted scientists/authors responded publicly,
making the CSF look like total fools.
[snip tired old quotes]
EROS.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Scientific" Creationism:- A pseudo-scientific framework of increasing
complexity and ingenuity used to explain away all available empirical
evidence so that it fits the dogma of Biblical Literalism.
david ford
What are the 3 immediately-preceding ancestors of the ostrich?
What are the 3 immediately-following descendents of the ostrich, if
any?
Do you agree that [Gingerich et al.]"hind limbs of _Basilosaurus_ are
most plausibly interpreted as accessories facilitating reproduction"?
Do you think that _Basilosaurus_'s hind limbs provide evidence for
evolution?
Which of the following provide evidence for evolution?:
human brain
human lung
human blood vessel
human liver
human kidney
human femur
human fingers
human toes
human eyes
human tongue
> From the arguments made by creationists,
> creationism introduces mental and/or moral deficiencies
> I can ill afford.
Perhaps you could get someone else to pay for them, then.
Rodjk
I don't know. Why don't you look it up?
>
> Do you agree that [Gingerich et al.]"hind limbs of _Basilosaurus_ are
> most plausibly interpreted as accessories facilitating reproduction"?
See no reason to disagree.
So do you think that hind legs are always used as "accessories
facilitating reproduction", with no other noted use?
>
> Do you think that _Basilosaurus_'s hind limbs provide evidence for
> evolution?
Yes.
> Which of the following provide evidence for evolution?:
> human brain
> human lung
> human blood vessel
> human liver
> human kidney
> human femur
> human fingers
> human toes
> human eyes
> human tongue
All of them.
>
> > From the arguments made by creationists,
> > creationism introduces mental and/or moral deficiencies
> > I can ill afford.
>
> Perhaps you could get someone else to pay for them, then.
Why would he bother? So you can play more games?
>
> > > Bogus 'Vestigial Leg' Claims
> > >
> > > http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.9910142302001.6397-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
> >
> > Yes, your claims there were.
Got anything new? Or are you still peddling the same old bullshit?
You don't need to answer that one, we know the answer.
Rodjk #613
gen2rev
wrote in <b1c67abe.04030...@posting.google.com>:
> > 50. "Hind limbs of Basilosaurus appear to have been too small relative
> > to body size...to have assisted in swimming, and they could not
> > possibly have supported the body on land. However, maintenance of some
> > function is likely...The pelvis of modern whales serves to anchor
> > reproductive organs, even though functional hind limbs are lacking.
> > Thus hind limbs of Basilosaurus are most plausibly interpreted as
> > accessories facilitating reproduction."
A more complete quote:
Hind limbs of _Basilosaurus_ appear to have been too small relative
to body size to have assisted in swimming, and they could not
possibly have supported the body on land. However, maintenance of
some function is likely for several reasons: most bones are
present; some elements are fused, but remaining joints are well
formed with little suggestion of degeneracy; the patella and
calcaneal tuber are large for insertion of powerful muscles; and
the knee has a complex locking mechanism. The pelvis in generalized
mammals supports reproductive organs in addition to its common use
in locomotion. The pelvis of modern whales serves to anchor
reproductive organs, even though functional hind limbs are lacking.
Thus hind limbs of _Basilosaurus_ are most plausibly interpreted as
accessories facilitating reproduction. Abduction of the femur an
plantar flexion of the foot, with the knee locked in extension,
probably enabled hind limbs to be used as guides during copulation,
which may otherwise have been difficult in a serpentine aquatic
mammal.
It should be obvious now why the hind limbs of _Basilosaurus_ are
considered to be evidence for evolution: because they have virtually all
the bones that a land based animal has, yet they couldn't possibly be
used on land. But the hind limb probably had a new function in
_Basilosaurus_: that of a copulatory guide. This is how evolution
usually works, by co-opting old structures for new functions.
> > Philip D. Gingerich, B. Holly Smith, Elwyn L. Simons, "Hind limbs of
> > Eocene Basilosaurus: evidence of feet in whales", Science, Vol. 249,
> > 13 July 1990, p. 156
The complete paper is on pages 154 to 156.
> _Basilosaurus_'s purported vestigial leg
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970709233733.17288H-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
Which can easily be refuted with the argument presented above.
> Bogus 'Vestigial Leg' Claims
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.9910142302001.6397-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
Which makes no mention of vestigial legs, except in reference to another
article, the link to which no longer works (although it's probably to
the first article above).
Matt Silberstein
(david ford):
[snip]
>What are the 3 immediately-preceding ancestors of the ostrich?
Ostriches. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by
"immediately-preceding ancestors" in a way that we can use?
>What are the 3 immediately-following descendents of the ostrich, if
>any?
When it happens they will be ostriches.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Donate to the C.A.N.D.L.E.S. Museum, burnt down by arsonists who wrote
"Remember Timothy McVeigh" on the wall.
C.A.N.D.L.E.S. stands for Children of Auschwitz Nazi Deadly Lab Experiments
Survivors.
www.candles-museum.com
Tracy Hamilton
What does this have to do with whether the ostrich has wings?
And whether they are vestigial? Do you think
that wings are NOT the flight organs of birds, bats and insects?
Nobody identifies the structure in Basilosaurus as a femur because
it evolved from a femur. It IS a femur.
Femurs are part of legs (which are used for walking).
Wings are used for flying. This is not an argument from ignorance,
but from rather basic knowledge. Some organisms have
subsequently *lost* those uses.
> Do you agree that [Gingerich et al.]"hind limbs of _Basilosaurus_ are
> most plausibly interpreted as accessories facilitating reproduction"?
In other words, not useful for walking, AKA vestigial.
> Do you think that _Basilosaurus_'s hind limbs provide evidence for
> evolution?
Yup.
> Which of the following provide evidence for evolution?:
> human brain
> human lung
> human blood vessel
> human liver
> human kidney
> human femur
> human fingers
> human toes
> human eyes
> human tongue
Every one, especially taken in toto. None of them vestigial, as far as I
know.
Perhaps the big toe opposable vs. non-opposable, although that may be
a derived condition.
A real good one you missed: the human pelvis.
And the good old appendix - a vestigial cecum.
[snip]
Tracy P. Hamilton
Hank
<html>
Rodjk wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>dfo...@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message
news:<b1c67abe.04030...@posting.google.com>...
<br>> "Tracy Hamilton" <DontSpam...@uab.edu> wrote in message news:<c2kvv7$8bv$1...@SonOfMaze.dpo.uab.edu>...
<br>> > "david ford" <dfo...@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
<br>> > <a href="news:b1c67abe.04030...@posting.google.com">news:b1c67abe.04030...@posting.google.com</a>...
<br>> > > > 50. "Hind limbs of Basilosaurus appear to have been too small
relative
<br>> > > > to body size...to have assisted in swimming, and they could
not
<br>> > > > possibly have supported the body on land. However, maintenance
of some
<br>> > > > function is likely...The pelvis of modern whales serves to
anchor
<br>> > > > reproductive organs, even though functional hind limbs are
lacking.
<br>> > > > Thus hind limbs of Basilosaurus are most plausibly interpreted
as
<br>> > > > accessories facilitating reproduction."
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > Philip D. Gingerich, B. Holly Smith, Elwyn L. Simons, "Hind
limbs of
<br>> > > > Eocene Basilosaurus: evidence of feet in whales", Science,
Vol. 249,
<br>> > > > 13 July 1990, p. 156
<br>> > >
<br>> > > _Basilosaurus_'s purported vestigial leg
<br>> >
<br>> > A better heading would be David Ford makes a stupid argument.
<br>> >
<br>> > > <a href="http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970709233733.17288H-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu">http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970709233733.17288H-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu</a>
<br>> >
<br>> > Let me instead take the vestigial wings of an ostrich, and see
where the
<br>> > bogosities are introduced into the argument:
<br>> >
<br>> > <Begin bogosity>
<br>> > _Assuming_, as an evolutionist might like to _assume_, that they
were
<br>> > wings to begin with, then yes, they are vestigial wings:
<br>> >
<br>> > Statement: Evolution is true.
<br>> > Q: How do you know evolution is true?
<br>> > A: We have evidence for evolution's truth from this vestigial wing,
<br>> > showing that the organism
evolved from a predecessor having full-
<br>> > Q: How do you know that it is a vestigial wing?
<br>> > A: We know that it is a vestigial wing because the thing the thing
no
<br>> > longer functions as a
wing.
<br>> > Q: How do you know that it originally was a wing?
<br>> > A: We know that it was originally a wing because it evolved from
a
<br>> > predecessor with wings.
<br>> > Questioner: Stop right there. You're attempting to prove
evolution's
<br>> > truth by saying that
this thing evolved. In other words, in
<br>> > attempting to prove that
evolution is true, you make use of the
has happened. You are assuming the
<br>> > truth of your conclusion
in an attempt to prove your conclusion.
very poor reasoning. Are _all_ your
<br>> > arguments for the blind
watchmaker thesis this rotten?
<br>> > <End bogosity>
<br>> >
<br>> > Now, even a child could identify that an ostrich had wings
<br>> > and that they do no use them to fly. Even a child can tell
you
<br>> > what a kneecap is found on, as well as a femur.
<br>>
<br>> What are the 3 immediately-preceding ancestors of the ostrich?
<br>> What are the 3 immediately-following descendents of the ostrich,
if
<br>> any?
<p>I don't know. Why don't you look it up?
<p>>
<br>> Do you agree that [Gingerich et al.]"hind limbs of _Basilosaurus_
are
<br>> most plausibly interpreted as accessories facilitating reproduction"?
<p>See no reason to disagree.
<br>So do you think that hind legs are always used as "accessories
<br>facilitating reproduction", with no other noted use?
<p>>
<br>> Do you think that _Basilosaurus_'s hind limbs provide evidence for
<br>> evolution?
<p>Yes.
<p>> Which of the following provide evidence for evolution?:
<br>> human brain
<br>> human lung
<br>> human blood vessel
<br>> human liver
<br>> human kidney
<br>> human femur
<br>> human fingers
<br>> human toes
<br>> human eyes
<br>> human tongue
<p>All of them.
<br> </blockquote>
And I for one would like to file a complaint with the management concerning
poor design of some of my parts:
<ul>
<li>
Kidney stones - ever passed one? Get Mike Tyson to give you a kidney
punch to simulate it. Beyone painful, lasts for days.</li>
<li>
Gall stones - Had it not been for modern medicine, this little thing would
have killed me. (BTW, the modern gall bladder is rapidly approaching
the usefulness of the appendix.)</li>
</ul>
<p><br>--
<br>Assimilate a pitiful little species like you? I think not! -
Q of Borg
<br> </html>