Golden-Age Groundbreakers
SKY
culture, and I'd like to find out how other children of the Golden Age
rank the following coin-op classics based on originality and influence:
Title (U.S. Manufacturer, Year Released)
Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
Defender (Williams, 1980)
Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
Please include the country in which you live and your age as of
the end of 1985. Those born after 1985 are welcome to use negative
numbers. :)
All relevant comments are encouraged.
Thanks,
Kurt
Micky Green
Based on Originality and Influence, I would say that #'s 1 & 2 would
have to be Pac-Man and Dragons Lair.
Both transcended video games and became staples of pop culture,
Pac-Man more so than Dragons Lair admittedly.
Pac-Man spawned an industry unto itself with collectibles of every
type imaginable.
Pac-Man themed games are still being made for every home console to
date.
Dragons Lair was trully an original.
It spawned successive titles in its genre as well as a Cartoon, Game
Show, a board game and a new incarnation on the newest game platforms
as well.
Furthermore, DL and Pac-Man are two of only 3 coin-op arcade machines
on display at the Smithsonian, testament to their influence.
Next on the list I would say Mario Bros. only because it would become
the foundation upon which Nintendo would ressurect inerest in the home
video game market.
The others, I think are interchangeable.
Just my .02
Shane Shaffer
news:2175334b.03021...@posting.google.com:
> * I'm working on a book about coin-operated video games in American
> culture, and I'd like to find out how other children of the Golden Age
> rank the following coin-op classics based on originality and influence:
>
>
> Title (U.S. Manufacturer, Year Released)
>
> Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
The isometric perspective wowed everyone, but the game itself wasn't ground
breaking. The graphics and the joystick carried the game to its success.
> Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
Given that you are interested in the impact of the games in American
culture greatly changes how this game should be looked at. If we were
talking about Japan, this would be the game that had all the impact -
nothing else really matters compared to Space Invaders. In the US, it was
big, but didn't have nearly the impact it did in Japan. The biggest impact
it had in the US was saving the Atari 2600, as it wasn't until Space
Invaders that the system took off.
> Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
Probably had a bigger impact than most realize, as the "cute" character
helped the game appeal to both sexes, something that outside of Pac-Man
isn't too common. As for influence, while there were a few clones, there
really wasn't a ton you could do with the concept.
> Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
Clearly the most important game in the US. It is to the US what Space
Invaders is to Japan, and more. Though the video game industry had been
around for years and was growing, it was Pac-Man that established the
industry as a cultural and economic player.
> Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
Doesn't even belong in a discussion with these other games. Wasn't a
spectacular hit, didn't do anything new. A pretty generic game.
Nintendo's game that mattered is later in the list.
> Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
After Dragon's Lair, graphics mattered. Opened up a lot of eyes of the
Hollywood types.
> Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
Without this, there would be no Nintendo today. This game saved the
company. In retrospect, probably not quite deserving of all the success it
had. All it did was popularize what had been done in a few other games.
> Defender (Williams, 1980)
Perhaps the first case of a game being made for gamers, not for everyone.
Defined what a shooter should be.
> Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
Though a neat game, with the 3D geometry being fun, it didn't change the
world.
> Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
Probably the first game to separate the general public from the gamers.
Before this, there really weren't any games which made stars out of the
best players in the local arcade, but Asteroids allowed for the development
and demonstration of skill that impressed all the kiddies.
> Please include the country in which you live and your age as of
> the end of 1985. Those born after 1985 are welcome to use negative
> numbers. :)
US, 10.
David Winter
I'm born in december 1974, and have seen Pac-Man and Donkey Kong almost
everywhere since the very early 1980s. Some parisian game rooms still happen
to have a Pac-Man, which definitely shows how popular this game is.
Personally, I preferred Donkey Kong in the early 1980s. This game was more a
challenge since in France we also had the Game & Watch version. Thus, we
played at home on G&W or table-tops, and with the G&W at school during
recreaction time. The obvious goal was to break the scores on the G&Ws to
practice and bring better "arcade scores" when we had the opportunity of
playing "for real".
Some time later, I discovered Zaxxon on the ColecoVision. While I had a
woodgrain 2600 in 1981 (first year of release in France), a friend of mine
got a Coleco in 1982 (his father loved modern stuff, so bought several
machines: 2600, ColecoVision, Vextrex, Videopac N60, and so on).
Guys, while I was playing Combat, Starmaster, Chopper Command and others,
Zaxxon kicked major ass at that time. I simply couldn't understand why my
2600 wasn't as good as a CV.
Anyhow... Back to the arcades: I always remember Pac-Man and Donkey Kong.
However, Pole Position was another "top classic". We always saw that one.
However, I can't really remember Space Invaders on the arcades. Maybe I
didn't fancy that game for some reasons, or the places where I used to play
with arcades during holidays didn't have that game.
I also remember other games as well, but since you wanted some stories
around the games you mention, I just wanted to tell you how much we enjoyed
Donkey Kong and Pac-Man. These are the two games I'll never forget since I
grew up with them. Of course, I played other games, but they were not
comparable. Even if some were better, these two classics were so popular
that we preferred them.
And yes, back in the early 1980s my father offered a mechanical Canada Drive
pinball to my mother, who never really played it, opposed to my brothers and
I. The seller knew us quite well, and since I was already in electronics
(well, dismantling stuff, trying to understand how it works, reading related
press, etc), the guy eventually told my parents I could have an old arcade
game in working order. Guess what ? Those folks refused the game, saying
that I would put my hands in it and risk high voltage electrocution. Well,
that was not false, but when I recall them that story nowadays, they always
refuse to admit what they did.
Anyhow, I still played Pac-Mac and Donkey-Kong wherever I could play them
during the holidays, and guys, these are just great memories. I never had an
opportunity to play Atari Vector games at that time, I don't know why. Maybe
they were there but I didn't fancy them. Maybe they weren't available. Some
friends remember Asteroids and say it's one of the best they ever played
with. But I have a different opinion and saw different games.
Anything else ? Feel free to ask.
David Winter - http://www.pong-story.com
"SKY" <pacman...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
2175334b.03021...@posting.google.com...
Christianscott27
big hit.
i'd put xevious on there, i'm not certain it was the first overhead
fighter/bomber game but it was a standout in the arcades. this was the first
game i used the "next game reservation" quarter on the corner of the glass
system on.
although it was a big hit i hated q*bert and i still do, i always found myself
falling off the block pile. i think a lot of people felt this way, it was a
quarter stealing rip off.
>>> New England Classic Gamers Group <<<
http://www.gis.net/~bertulli/
bringing geeks and their games together!
LaFlamme
> Title (U.S. Manufacturer, Year Released) 1 being the most influential/
original
>
1) Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
2) Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
3) Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
4) Defender (Williams, 1980)
5) Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
6) Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
7) Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
8) Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
9) Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
10) Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
>
>
> Please include the country in which you live and your age as of
> the end of 1985. Those born after 1985 are welcome to use negative
> numbers. :)
>
Canada - Age 15
salmoneous
defined what a video game should be. No timer, multiple lives, waves
of enemies, bonus targets, free ships, different possible goals
(highest score? most levels cleared?), high scores, secrects and
special tricks for the acrade masters, etc. Before SI, no one really
knew what a video games should be like. Afterward, almost every game
followed the SI mold.
Of course, there have been a few other genres that surived. Racing
games have always been big, so maybe Night Driver needs to be on any
list. Ditto for PvP sports games, so something like Atari football
should be included. And of course, the big genre that started in the
golden-age, but didn't become big until later, PvP fighting games. Not
sure what the key game here would be. Karate Champ? Although these
games were both fun and innovative, they didn't come close to what SI
did. SI was not only innovative, it was wildy popular and brought
video games out of seedy arcards and into the mass public eye.
Of the other games on your list, Pac Man is probably the most
significant. Like SI, it's place in histroy is defined not only by
it's influence on future video games, but on it's role in bringing
video games into popular culture.
The rest are all good to great games, but most had very little
influence in the long run.
Oh, and I was 17 in 1985
SKY
>> ... I'd like to find out how other children of the
>>Golden Age rank the following coin-op classics based
LaFlamme <curly...@hotmailspamcentral.com> wrote:
> Title (U.S. Manufacturer, Year Released)
> 1 being the most influential/original
>
> 1) Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
> 2) Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
> 3) Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
> 4) Defender (Williams, 1980)
> 5) Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
> 6) Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
> 7) Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
> 8) Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
> 9) Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
> 10) Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
Sincere thanks to everyone who replied, both here
and through email.
Kurt
Bruce Tomlin
pacman...@hotmail.com (SKY) wrote:
Sounds pretty good, but I'd swap Joust for Mario Brothers on that list
up there. They were both early games that let two players play at the
same time, but Joust had a lot better physics, and I never saw a Super
Mario arcade until years after it came out.
And Joust had Gladiator Waves.
SKY
>>> ... I'd like to find out how other children of the
>>>Golden Age rank the following coin-op classics based
>>>on originality and influence...
LaFlamme <curly...@hotmailspamcentral.com> wrote:
>> Title (U.S. Manufacturer, Year Released)
>> 1 being the most influential/original
>>
>> 1) Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
>> 2) Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
>> 3) Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
>> 4) Defender (Williams, 1980)
>> 5) Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
>> 6) Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
>> 7) Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
>> 8) Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
>> 9) Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
>> 10) Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
Bruce Tomlin <bruceNS+...@fanboy.net> wrote:
>Sounds pretty good, but I'd swap Joust for Mario Brothers on that
>list up there. They were both early games that let two players
>play at the same time, but Joust had a lot better physics, and I
>never saw a Super Mario arcade until years after it came out.
The original game allowing cooperative team play is Rip Off,
a Cinematronics vector game designed by Tim Skelly in 1979. Another
is Midway's Wizard of Wor (1981). Both were moderate hits, and if
it hadn't been preempted by Asteroids, Rip Off might have dominated
the summer of 1980.
http://klov.com/R/Rip_Off.html
http://klov.com/W/Wizard_Of_Wor.html
I'm not sure why there weren't more cooperative games than there
were, and I'm a little mystified by the fact that, to my knowledge, no
one ever developed a cooperative version of Pac-Man or Space Invaders.
But that's all beside the main point of this message.
Shane Shaffer (sdshaf...@yahoooooo.com) wrote:
>Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
>
>Doesn't even belong in a discussion with these other games. Wasn't
>a spectacular hit, didn't do anything new. A pretty generic game.
I'm not trying to start an argument, but the biggest reason I
consider Mario Brothers groundbreaking is that it was the first game
to include the jump-strike maneuver, which (in slightly modified forms)
swept the world through later games like Super Mario Brothers and Sonic.
I've been trying to think of other pre-Sonic games that featured
a jump-strike, but I'm drawing a blank. Any help out there?
Sincerely,
Kurt
Kirk Is
> * I'm working on a book about coin-operated video games in American
> culture, and I'd like to find out how other children of the Golden Age
> rank the following coin-op classics based on originality and influence:
1 Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
2 Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
3 Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
4 Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
5 Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
6 Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
7 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
8 Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
9 Defender (Williams, 1980)
10 Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
USA, Turned 9 in 1985
Originality *and* Influence is tough; they don't always
go together.
--
QUOTEBLOG: http://kisrael.com SKEPTIC MORTALITY: http://kisrael.com/mortal
"God or somebody save us from any society founded on Darwinian principles."
--Richard Dawkins
woods01
1 Pac-Man - this was THE game for me in the 80s. I loved it. Can't really
say why though.
2 Donkey Kong - I attribute a lot of my interest in this game do to the
success of the Colecovision. I think this game has a clear
line to the development of Super Mario Bros.
3 Space Invaders - This game is more important to me because of its
popularity on the Atari 2600. But I probably played more
clones of the game on the home systems than the original.
It certainly laid it out for Galaga and Centipede which I
played far more of.
I can't really rank the others. Mario Bros was a game that I never
heard of until many years after the SMB craze when I played it on
a pirate NES multi cart. Asteroids was great but vector graphics did
not last. Q-bert I know more of as a cutesy character than as an
influential game.
John
pacman...@hotmail.com (SKY) wrote in message news:<2175334b.03021...@posting.google.com>...
Kirk Is
> SKY <pacman...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I decided to indulge myself and comment on my previous ordering
> 1 Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
I think people forget how earth shattering this game was.
It really put arcade games on the map in a way Pong didn't.
> 2 Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
Hmmm, you know what? Maybe I'd swap this with Pac-Man
right now, if it's not 'too late'. Still, this did to
Space Invaders what Space Invaders did to Pong.
> 3 Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
But Pac-Man, with its amazing cross gender appeal,
was really something. It even caused novelty records
for crying out loud. And the visual design holds
up today.
> 4 Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
Like someone said, greatly advanced the art of character design,
bringing "cute" to the fore.
> 5 Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
Second only to Pac-Man in terms of cultural recognition.
Also one of the first games to have multiple screens that
were great different in their mechanic.
Hell, swap 4 and 5 too, along with 2 and 3. (Sorry)
> 6 Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
Innovative as all heck but not that ground breaking.
> 7 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
I, Robot did shaded Polygons later, but this really made 3D happen--
in a way Red Baron didn't. Not terribly inflential. But actually,
one of the very first "2D to 3D" conversions, considering it was
thought of as a 3D translation of the pervious generation "Tank".
> 8 Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
Good two player action. But really I think it was the last
2 player simultaneous Mario game. (I mean heck, on the GBA remake
they only have this to go back to for minigames.) Like someone
mentioned an interesting companion to Joust.
> 9 Defender (Williams, 1980)
Ehh, I dunno. With its high difficulty and needlessly complex
control scheme, never did much for me. The Radar was innovative though.
> 10 Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
Great Graphics, so-so gameplay. Maybe I'm underrating isometric coolness.
And some games copied that, like congo bong perhaps.
> USA, Turned 9 in 1985
> Originality *and* Influence is tough; they don't always
> go together.
--
QUOTEBLOG: http://kisrael.com SKEPTIC MORTALITY: http://kisrael.com/mortal
"An art form based on the computer should be impossible without it."
--Myron Krueger
SKY
>>I'm working on a book about coin-operated video games in
>>American culture, and I'd like to find out how other children
>>of the Golden Age rank the following coin-op classics based
>>on originality and influence:
The book was a pipe dream. I'm going to be in serious
trouble if I don't find a real job soon.
But someone should write a book called *Pac-Man's Legacy:
Coin-Operated Video Games In American Culture* to be published
in conjunction with the 25th anniversary of Pac-Man's release.
Then send me royalties. :)
Kirk <kirk...@alienbill.com> wrote:
>Originality *and* Influence is tough; they don't always go
>together.
Excellent point. (This thread probably would have gotten
more replies in RGVA, but on average, they probably wouldn't
have been as intelligent.)
>1 Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
>
>I think people forget how earth shattering this game was.
>It really put arcade games on the map in a way Pong didn't.
Outside bars and arcades. I agree.
http://klov.com/S/Space_Invaders.html
>2 Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
>
>Hmmm, you know what? Maybe I'd swap this with Pac-Man right
>now, if it's not 'too late'. Still, this did to Space Invaders
>what Space Invaders did to Pong.
That might be a bit of an overstatement. Asteroids may
have outperformed Space Invaders in the United States, but
it did so in a subculture Space Invaders largely created.
http://klov.com/A/Asteroids.html
>3 Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
>
>But Pac-Man, with its amazing cross gender appeal, was really
>something. It even caused novelty records for crying out loud.
>And the visual design holds up today.
Brought video games out of the subculture and into the
American mainstream.
http://klov.com/P/Pac-Man.html
>4 Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
>
>Like someone said, greatly advanced the art of character design,
>bringing "cute" to the fore.
Another case where many people don't seem to remember
what a cultural phenomenon the game was when it hit.
>5 Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
>
>Second only to Pac-Man in terms of cultural recognition. Also
>one of the first games to have multiple screens that were greatly
>different in their mechanic.
Good observations.
http://klov.com/D/Donkey_Kong.html
> ... swap 4 and 5 too, along with 2 and 3. (Sorry)
No need to apologize for improvement. :)
>6 Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
>
>Innovative as all heck but not that ground breaking.
More original than influential, you mean? I'd tend to
agree based on the way laser disc coin-ops flashed and faded.
That's not to say MACH 3 didn't rock (Gottlieb, dba Mylstar,
1983).
http://klov.com/D/Dragon's_Lair.html
http://klov.com/M/M.A.C.H._3.html
>7 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
>
>I, Robot did shaded Polygons later, but this really made 3D
>happen--in a way Red Baron didn't. Not terribly inflential.
>But actually, one of the very first "2D to 3D" conversions,
>considering it was thought of as a 3D translation of the previous
>generation "Tank".
Okay, you're just showing off now, but I've got to call
you on the issue of influence. I'm generally not a big fan
of movie tie-ins, but I'd rank Star Wars at the top of that
list, and Star Wars was clearly a descendant of Battlezone.
http://klov.com/B/Battlezone.html
http://klov.com/S/Star_Wars.html
By the way, if I remember correctly, Leonard Herman's
*Phoenix* says over 70,000 Battlezone units were distributed.
Can anyone here verify or refute this?
>8 Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
>
>Good two player action. But really I think it was the last
>2 player simultaneous Mario game. (I mean heck, on the GBA
>remake they only have this to go back to for minigames.) Like
>someone mentioned an interesting companion to Joust.
As I said in another message, I consider Mario Brothers
groundbreaking mainly because its jump-strike maneuver was
a forerunner to Super Mario Brothers and Sonic.
http://klov.com/M/Mario_Bros..html
>9 Defender (Williams, 1980)
>
>Ehh, I dunno. With its high difficulty and needlessly complex
>control scheme, never did much for me. The Radar was innovative
>though.
Definitely an allowance eater. :)
http://klov.com/D/Defender.html
>10 Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
>
>Great Graphics, so-so gameplay. Maybe I'm underrating isometric
>coolness. And some games copied that, like congo bongo perhaps.
At age 12, I quickly learned that Zaxxon was more fun
to watch than it was to play, but this is another case where
I think people forget how amazing the graphics were at the
time the game was released.
Bruce Tomlin <bruceNS+...@fanboy.net> wrote:
>Subject: Re: Your first arcade videogame
>
> ... BTW, ICBW. HTH, HAND. IHGUTPOAFW. (that last one
>separates the _real_ usenetters from the posers)
"I have greatly underestimated the pain of arcade fever
withdrawal"? :)
Kurt
SKY
>Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
>
>http://klov.com/Q/Q*bert.html
Here's a link with marquee, cabinet and screenshots:
http://klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=2460
>Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
>
>http://klov.com/D/Donkey_Kong.html
"This game appeared in an episode of Mister Rogers'
Neighborhood where a young boy explains a little to Fred
Rogers what the game is about and how it is played."
Now *that's* cultural impact! :)
Kurt
Kirk Is
> The book was a pipe dream. I'm going to be in serious
> trouble if I don't find a real job soon.
Ay, I feel for ya. It's a jungle out there.
At least it brought up some decent commentary...I'm enjoying our little
subthread here.
> Excellent point. (This thread probably would have gotten
> more replies in RGVA, but on average, they probably wouldn't
> have been as intelligent.)
Well, I'm more of a BS-ing gaming philosopher-historian than a collector,
so this is some really neat stuff.
>>1 Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
>>
>>I think people forget how earth shattering this game was.
>>It really put arcade games on the map in a way Pong didn't.
> Outside bars and arcades. I agree.
Yeah, to be fair I was young for this and Asteroids, but I was reading
about it not too too long ago, forget what book though.
>>2 Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
>>
>>Hmmm, you know what? Maybe I'd swap this with Pac-Man right
>>now, if it's not 'too late'. Still, this did to Space Invaders
>>what Space Invaders did to Pong.
> That might be a bit of an overstatement. Asteroids may
> have outperformed Space Invaders in the United States, but
> it did so in a subculture Space Invaders largely created.
Hrrm, I guess I was mostly going by what the book said.
though I think I saw Asteroids around more than Space Invaders.
>>5 Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
>>
>>Second only to Pac-Man in terms of cultural recognition. Also
>>one of the first games to have multiple screens that were greatly
>>different in their mechanic.
> Good observations.
Thanks. It started to hit me when I was playing through DK64.
It hit me that there was a strong similarity in the modern 3D platformers
"different miniworlds" and the various boards of the original DK.
>>Innovative as all heck but not that ground breaking.
> More original than influential, you mean? I'd tend to
Er, yeah. Space Ace, Thayer's Question, (and MACH 3 like you say). A few
others. That's about it.
Err, unless you count that "Captain Power" kind of thing...though I guess
interaction with TVs has a pre-videogame history (like that one where you
put the plastic on the screen and drew on it) that has a strong
connection.
>>7 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
>>
>>I, Robot did shaded Polygons later, but this really made 3D
>>happen--in a way Red Baron didn't. Not terribly inflential.
>>But actually, one of the very first "2D to 3D" conversions,
>>considering it was thought of as a 3D translation of the previous
>>generation "Tank".
> Okay, you're just showing off now,
Heh. Yeah, a little...but I was fascinated by the stuff
at http://www.safestuff.com/doclibrary.htm
> but I've got to call
> you on the issue of influence. I'm generally not a big fan
> of movie tie-ins, but I'd rank Star Wars at the top of that
> list, and Star Wars was clearly a descendant of Battlezone.
Hrrm. Maybe...3D Perspective, Funky Controller.
>>8 Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
>>
>>Good two player action. But really I think it was the last
>>2 player simultaneous Mario game. (I mean heck, on the GBA
>>remake they only have this to go back to for minigames.) Like
>>someone mentioned an interesting companion to Joust.
> As I said in another message, I consider Mario Brothers
> groundbreaking mainly because its jump-strike maneuver was
> a forerunner to Super Mario Brothers and Sonic.
I dunno. SMB had the same hit from below mechanic, but you couldn't jump
on top of non-stunned creatures, right? To me, that's the critical part of
SMB. And Sonic didn't even have hit from below? I dunno. It was
important in getting Mario away from DK, but...
--
QUOTEBLOG: http://kisrael.com SKEPTIC MORTALITY: http://kisrael.com/mortal
"Whoa, like, lay off my headbone, daddy-o."
The Onion's Our Dumb Century, "Area Beat Beaten"
Kirk Is
> "This game appeared in an episode of Mister Rogers'
> Neighborhood where a young boy explains a little to Fred
> Rogers what the game is about and how it is played."
> Now *that's* cultural impact! :)
Didn't I see Fred Rogers being shown a "new" Star Wars cabinet?
I'm not sure if it was on that show though. I think it maybe have
been some kind of news or specialty show...
--
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This site was made possible by a grant from Atlantic Puppy-Grinding Company.
"It may be cruel, but think of the jobs!"
SKY
> ... I'm enjoying our little subthread here.
So am I. Like you, I'd say I'm more historian than
collector. So far my collecting consists of reacquiring
systems I played as a kid. :)
>1 Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
>
>Yeah, to be fair I was young for this and Asteroids, but
>I was reading about it not too too long ago ...
>2 Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
>
> ... I was mostly going by what the book said, though I
>think I saw Asteroids around more than Space Invaders.
If I remember correctly, about 60,000 units of Space
Invaders and 70,000 units of Asteroids were distributed in
the United States (while Space Invaders was significantly
more successful than Asteroids overseas).
My position is that Space Invaders did much of the
heavy lifting to create the U.S. market for Asteroids.
http://klov.com/S/Space_Invaders.html
http://klov.com/A/Asteroids.html
>6 Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
>
> ... Space Ace, Thayer's Question, (and MACH 3 like you
>say). A few others. That's about it.
You mean Thayer's Quest. :)
There are quite a few others, but no major hits:
http://dragons-lair-project.com/games/
>7 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
>
> ... I was fascinated by the stuff at
>http://www.safestuff.com/doclibrary.htm
Thanks for the link.
I wrote:
>> ... Star Wars was clearly a descendant of Battlezone.
Kirk wrote:
> ... Maybe...3D Perspective, Funky Controller.
Battlezone was programmed by Ed Rotberg, who was then
assigned to help create another version of the game for the
U.S. Army to use in training.
Rotberg had been working on the project that eventually
became Star Wars before he left Atari. Besides the graphical
similarities, the controller for Star Wars was originally
developed for the Army version of Battlezone.
http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/atari/misc/Army-Battlezone-QA.html
http://klov.com/B/Battlezone.html
http://klov.com/S/Star_Wars.html
Me:
>Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
>
> ... I consider Mario Brothers groundbreaking mainly because
>its jump-strike maneuver was a forerunner to Super Mario
>Brothers and Sonic.
Kirk:
> ... SMB had the same hit from below mechanic, but you couldn't
>jump on top of non-stunned creatures, right? To me, that's the
>critical part of SMB.
Well, no, but you could kick them after they were stunned.
Isn't that good enough?!! :)
>And Sonic didn't even have hit from below? I dunno.
Sonic rolls himself up into a pinball when he jumps
and can strike from any direction for as long as he remains
airborne:
hedgehog--1a : any of a subfamily (Erinaceinae) of Old World
nocturnal insectivores that have both hair and spines which
they present outwardly by rolling themselves up when threatened
You make good points, but I still say these maneuvers
are ultimately derived from the original Mario Brothers.
By the way, contrary to a widely held belief among
New World youth, hedgehogs are generally not blue:
http://m-w.com/mw/art/hedgehog.htm
Kurt
Kirk Is
> * Kirk <kirk...@alienbill.com> wrote:
> My position is that Space Invaders did much of the
> heavy lifting to create the U.S. market for Asteroids.
I think you might well be right.
>> ... Space Ace, Thayer's Question, (and MACH 3 like you
>>say). A few others. That's about it.
> You mean Thayer's Quest. :)
Yeah...man, I swear I'm getting adult onset dyslexia sometimes.
(Made worse by recently learning to more or less touch type
a few years ago...some times the phonetic part of my brain
can run wild.)
> There are quite a few others, but no major hits:
> http://dragons-lair-project.com/games/
Oh yeah...Cobra Command, that was one I was trying to think of.
My arcade had that, and I found it quite enthralling, though I don't
think I ever got very good at it.
In terms of influence, the laserdisc format was selflimiting...
either the format would dominate the industry (maybe creating
a rennaisance for animation?) or it would remain a smallish niche,
which is more or less what happened. I suppose you could see if
the gameplay itself had much of an influence, but really, tap
or move the right way at just the right time wasn't the the
greatest, the genre was usually animation driven, though some
games used overlays to add some complexity.
>>7 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
>>
>> ... I was fascinated by the stuff at
>>http://www.safestuff.com/doclibrary.htm
> Thanks for the link.
Yeah, it's pretty cool. http://www.safestuff.com/
has some other links as well.
> Kirk wrote:
>> ... Maybe...3D Perspective, Funky Controller.
> Battlezone was programmed by Ed Rotberg, who was then
> assigned to help create another version of the game for the
> U.S. Army to use in training.
> Rotberg had been working on the project that eventually
> became Star Wars before he left Atari. Besides the graphical
> similarities, the controller for Star Wars was originally
> developed for the Army version of Battlezone.
Ok. I'll buy it...though it was a pretty small genre, so
I don't know how wide you can say the influence was.
Star Wars really stood on its own for quite some time.
>> ... I consider Mario Brothers groundbreaking mainly because
>>its jump-strike maneuver was a forerunner to Super Mario
>>Brothers and Sonic.
> Kirk:
>> ... SMB had the same hit from below mechanic, but you couldn't
>>jump on top of non-stunned creatures, right? To me, that's the
>>critical part of SMB.
> Well, no, but you could kick them after they were stunned.
> Isn't that good enough?!! :)
>>And Sonic didn't even have hit from below? I dunno.
> Sonic rolls himself up into a pinball when he jumps
> and can strike from any direction for as long as he remains
> airborne:
> You make good points, but I still say these maneuvers
> are ultimately derived from the original Mario Brothers.
Well, I guess we can agree to disagree, or something...
I was trying to think of other possible precurors to "it's ok
to jump *on* enemies" that SMB popularized...and what I came
up with was, heh, Joust, which previously came up in comparison
to Mario Bros. I still think Mario Bros was all about the
"hit from below" aspect, and SMB had that but was much more
about "jump on top"....but MB->SMB is a *lot* tighter than
Joust->SMB, despite the "who's on top" mechanic.
--
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SKY
>I was trying to think of other possible precursors to
>"it's ok to jump *on* enemies" that SMB popularized...
>and what I came up with was, heh, Joust, which previously
>came up in comparison to Mario Bros.
The only precipitation from my brainstorm is the
(three?) jump-strike maneuvers in the coin-op version
of Karate Champ (Data East, 1984).
http://klov.com/K/Karate_Champ.html
Wait a minute. Speaking of Data East, there's also
Tag Team Wrestling (also 1984). Besides the drop kick,
you jumped on your oppenent when attempting a pin, and
I'm pretty sure there was a difficult and rarely used
move in which you could jump on him from the top rope.
http://klov.com/T/Tag_Team_Wrestling.html
>I still think Mario Bros was all about the "hit from
>below" aspect, and SMB had that but was much more about
>"jump on top"... but MB->SMB is a *lot* tighter than
>Joust->SMB, despite the "who's on top" mechanic.
Yeah, Karate Champ or Tag Team Wrestling to Super
Mario Brothers probably isn't especially tight either.
But Karate Champ and Tag Team Wrestling are clearly
direct descendants of the original Mario Brothers.
**DISCLAIMER: The sentence above is an attempt at humor
and should not be taken literally.**
http://m-w.com/mw/art/hedgehog.htm
Kurt
Kirk Is
> Yeah, Karate Champ or Tag Team Wrestling to Super
> Mario Brothers probably isn't especially tight either.
> But Karate Champ and Tag Team Wrestling are clearly
> direct descendants of the original Mario Brothers.
> **DISCLAIMER: The sentence above is an attempt at humor
> and should not be taken literally.**
Oy, I gotta stop reading news right before bedtime,
My joke detectors are way desensitized, I would have really thought
about what you said if you hadn't put in the disclaimer...
--
QUOTEBLOG: http://kisrael.com SKEPTIC MORTALITY: http://kisrael.com/mortal
"Aww Kate, nothing's corny if it gets you some." --Drew Carey
SKY
>>I was trying to think of other possible precursors to
>>"it's ok to jump *on* enemies" that SMB popularized...
>>and what I came up with was, heh, Joust, which previously
>>came up in comparison to Mario Bros.
I wrote:
>The only precipitation from my brainstorm is the (three?)
>jump-strike maneuvers in the coin-op version of Karate Champ
>(Data East, 1984).
>
>http://klov.com/K/Karate_Champ.html
After further review, there may be only two jump-strike
maneuvers in Karate Champ, the jumping side kick (left up and
right right) and the jumping back kick (left up and right left).
I'm thinking any jumping move would have to be left up.
If I remember correctly, left up and right down is a front
flip, and both up is a back flip, which would leave the two
moves above as the only jump-strikes.
I wrote:
>Wait a minute. Speaking of Data East, there's also Tag Team
>Wrestling (also 1984). Besides the drop kick, you jumped on
>your oppenent when attempting a pin, and I'm pretty sure there
>was a difficult and rarely used move in which you could jump
>on him from the top rope.
>
>http://klov.com/T/Tag_Team_Wrestling.html
After further review, I may be remembering the move in
which you can jump on your opponent from the top rope from
Mat Mania (Memetron, 1985). Apparently Tag Team Wrestling
and Mat Mania were both licensed by Technos. They're very
similar, and I've played them both quite a bit, but I'm not
sure you can jump from the ropes in Tag Team.
http://www.klov.com/M/Mat_Mania.html
Kurt
SKY
>>But Karate Champ and Tag Team Wrestling are clearly
>>direct descendants of the original Mario Brothers.
>>
>>**DISCLAIMER: The sentence above is an attempt at humor
>>and should not be taken literally.**
Kirk <kirk...@alienbill.com> wrote:
>Oy, I gotta stop reading news right before bedtime,
>My joke detectors are way desensitized, I would have
>really thought about what you said if you hadn't put
>in the disclaimer...
Well, there are similarities, but I was poking
fun at myself for defending Mario Brothers as one of
the most groundbreaking games of the Golden Age when
no one here seems to agree with me.
Incidentally, I was sorting through my briefcase
today and found my original ranking of the ten games
that started this thread. (I didn't even remember
doing this.)
There were several scribbles and changes, but
here's how it looked when I gave up:
1 Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
2 Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
3 Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
4 Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
5 Defender (Williams, 1980)
6 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
7 Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
8 Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
9 Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
10 Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
My thought after looking this over was that it
seems to be a pretty good composite of the opinions
expressed here (and through email).
The selection of games for the list was biased
against driving games, sports simulations, sequels and
pop culture tie-ins, which seem to me to be inherently
unoriginal--though not necessarily bad games.
Games like Galaga and Centipede, while not strictly
sequels, are in my opinion based on the same concept and
goals as the original vertical bug shooter, Space Invaders,
and their significance is reflected in that game's ranking,
just as the significance of Ms. Pac-Man is reflected in
the ranking of Pac-Man.
As usual, any comments are welcome. :)
Kurt
Dane L. Galden
and deserves to take that spot on the list.
Dane.
"SKY" <pacman...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2175334b.03030...@posting.google.com...
SKY
>>Incidentally, I ... found my original ranking
>>of the ten games that started this thread...
>>
>>1 Pac-Man (Midway, 1980)
>>2 Space Invaders (Midway, 1978)
>>3 Donkey Kong (Nintendo, 1981)
>>4 Asteroids (Atari, 1979)
>>5 Defender (Williams, 1980)
>>6 Battlezone (Atari, 1980)
>>7 Dragon's Lair (Cinematronics, 1983)
>>8 Zaxxon (Sega, 1982)
>>9 Q-Bert (Gottlieb, 1982)
>>10 Mario Brothers (Nintendo, 1983)
Dane <chig...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>IMO, Super Mario Bros. is much more influential than
>regular Mario Bros., and deserves to take that spot
>on the list.
I agree that the game Super Mario Brothers has been
much more influential than the original Mario Brothers,
and although the selection of games for the list was
consciously biased against sequels, I'd say Super Mario
Brothers has more than enough conceptual originality
to get a separate listing.
One reason it didn't is that the coin-op version
made only a small fraction of the game's impact.
My younger brother was a coin-op Super Mario shark,
but most people weren't into the game before the NES
version started to take off. (My brother's reaction
after watching a friend play the NES version: "What
a joke! There are extra lives everywhere!")
The other main reason it wasn't listed is that
even the impact of the coin-op version came after the
Golden Age was pretty much over.
As I've mentioned in other messages, the elements
of Super Mario that are derived from the original Mario
Brothers are the main reason the original made the list.
Thanks for giving me a chance to explain. :)
Kurt
Dane L. Galden
I will concede all of your points, understand them, and see that you put
some thought into it. My only point is that if there were no SMB, I don't
think that the original Mario Bros. would even make a top 25 list. It's not
a bad game, but only stood out in retrospect because of the phenomenal
success of SMB (mostly in the home arena, though, as you rightly point out).
Of course, I think that perhaps SMB success in the home arena may also be a
plus for its inclusion on the list, because it represented the transition to
home consoles as a dominant force in video games.
I think that MB is even less innovative than DK with its decidedly
non-varied levels, and its cooperative gameplay was nice but had been done
before (ala Joust, Armor Attach, etc.). Don't get me wrong, I really think
its a decent game, but the jumping on things to kill them aspect of the game
is a little thin, I think, for it to join such illustrious company as the
other games on the list.
Anyway, I really don't care which games are chose, but I am just trying to
point out some objective observations. I like the rest of the list, and
think that your logic for not wanting to include SMB is sound given the
criteria and reasoning that you cite. I just think it is specious to
include MB as a consolation or make-up for really wanting to acknowledge the
contributions of SMB.
Just my $.02
Dane.
Kirk Is
> I will concede all of your points, understand them, and see that you put
> some thought into it. My only point is that if there were no SMB, I don't
> think that the original Mario Bros. would even make a top 25 list. It's not
Actually, I'm not sure if it was supposed to be a "all time top ten list".
Part of the fun was that it was a little arbitrary, and it was kind of
interesting thinking within that context (and easier than straining my
brain to come up with an "all time top ten"...)
--
QUOTEBLOG: http://kisrael.com SKEPTIC MORTALITY: http://kisrael.com/mortal
"My stomach says no but my sick carny sense of humor says yes..."
--Mr. Wick (The Drew Carey Show)
Dane L. Galden
news:C39ba.37$fj7....@news.tufts.edu...
Well then I misunderstood the original intent of your post and the meaning
of choosing "groundbreakers." It was still fun, though. :)
Dane.
SKY
>>I will concede all of your points, understand them, and
>>see that you put some thought into it. My only point is
>>that if there were no SMB, I don't think that the original
Kirk <kirk...@alienbill.com> wrote:
>Actually, I'm not sure if it was supposed to be an "all time
>top ten list". Part of the fun was that it was a little
>arbitrary, and it was kind of interesting thinking within
>that context (and easier than straining my brain to come
>up with an "all time top ten"...)
It was supposed to be a top ten of coin-op's Golden Age,
which might be broadly identified as 1978-1985. Of course,
a "top ten" list can be based on any number of possible
criteria, and I'll be the first to admit that "groundbreaking"
(based on originality and influence) involves a combination
of highly subjective criteria.
After reading Dane's most recent message, I think we
just honestly disagree about the originality and influence
of the first Mario Brothers coin-op, and that's fine. I
give weight to his opinion because he clearly knows what
he's talking about.
In fact, I can strengthen his case by admitting I've
thought of a jump-strike maneuver that may actually be a
direct predecessor to that of Mario Brothers--namely jumping
from the top floor to hit the punching bag and release the
bucket in Popeye (Nintendo, 1982).
By the way, can anyone here tell me how to find out
how many original Mario Brothers units were distributed?
Kurt
Kirk Is
but I only barely consider SMB a proper arcade game...
I mean it kinda maybe was, but was so eclipsed by its role
as *the* NES game that I don't think our video game history
would be that different if it hadn't been in the arcades.
--
QUOTEBLOG: http://kisrael.com SKEPTIC MORTALITY: http://kisrael.com/mortal
"The Wonder Twins had the right idea. I defy you to think of any crisis
situation that would not be vastly improved by the presence of a gorilla
with a bucket of water." --Maraud
A. Hershey
kirk...@alienbill.com wrote on 3/10/03 11:00 PM:
> You know, Mario Bros possibly wasn't too influential,
> but I only barely consider SMB a proper arcade game...
> I mean it kinda maybe was, but was so eclipsed by its role
> as *the* NES game that I don't think our video game history
> would be that different if it hadn't been in the arcades.
>
>
Vs. Super Mario bros was released after the NES version. The first couple of
levels are the same as on the Nintendo but with some changes here and there
but later on the game morphs into Super mario Bros 2 (the game not released
in the US.)
Try it and Vs. Duck Hunt if you can. Both are emulated in MAME.
SKY
>>> ... My only point is that if there were no SMB, I
>>>don't think that the original Mario Bros. would even
Kirk <kirk...@alienbill.com> wrote:
>>Actually, I'm not sure if it was supposed to be a
>>"all time top ten list"...
Dane wrote:
>Well then I misunderstood the original intent of your
>post and the meaning of choosing "groundbreakers"...
**CONFUSION ALERT: That reply was from Kirk, not me.**
Kurt ("SKY")
SKY
> ... I only barely consider SMB a proper arcade game...
>I mean it kinda maybe was, but was so eclipsed by
>its role as *the* NES game that I don't think our
>video game history would be that different if it
>hadn't been in the arcades.
Well, my brother's video game history would
definitely be different.
Come to think of it, so would his financial
history. :)
Kurt
SKY
>Vs. Super Mario bros was released after the NES version...
I'm pretty sure the regular (non-Vs.) Super Mario
Brothers coin-op was released before either of them.
Maybe you knew this. I'm just trying to clarify.
Kurt
Robert Morgan
>Brothers coin-op was released before either of them.
>
> Maybe you knew this. I'm just trying to clarify.
I was under the impression that the first version was the FDS release in Japan.