Lady Godiva
C. Brown
Conqueror. This is not the same Godiva that took the famous ride.
Thanks,
Carisa Brown
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Looking for info on Lady Godiva, supposedly sister to William the
> Conqueror. This is not the same Godiva that took the famous ride.
William the Conqueror had no such sister, nor would this be
likely, as William's ancestry was exclusively non-English, while
Godgifu (the actual name, for which Godiva is a corruption) is an
exclusively English name. What source claims such a sibling
existed?
taf
Lynda
I have just been visiting numerous sites, all declaring a sibling
relationship between William the Conqueror and Lady Godiva.
Todd A. Farmerie <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3B2EEC60...@interfold.com...
D. Spencer Hines
William The Conqueror did not have a sister named Godiva.
He did have a first cousin, once removed, named Godgifu, daughter of
Aethelred II 'The Redeless' ---- King of England and his wife, Emma of
Normandy.
----
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two
thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to
the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into
the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals]
(1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"C. Brown" <oima...@ttcu.com> wrote in message
news:3B2EE892...@ttcu.com...
Stewart, Peter
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2001 16:09
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
>
> "C. Brown" wrote:
> >
> > Looking for info on Lady Godiva, supposedly sister to William the
> > Conqueror. This is not the same Godiva that took the famous ride.
>
This is perhaps a mistaken association with Godiva of Envermeu - her father
Hugo was a brother of Turold, bishop of Bayeux ca 1100, who may have become
confused with his predeccessor, William the Conqueror's half brother.
Peter Stewart
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda <ly...@internetromance.org>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> If this is not so, then many genealogists are barking up the wrong tree,
as
> I have just been visiting numerous sites, all declaring a sibling
> relationship between William the Conqueror and Lady Godiva.
>
Dear Linda,
Yes, with Brigitte Gastel Lloyd I make Internet Genealogical sites
and we try to be as correct as possible. We invite comments for corrections
and additions, and we receive both.
Having said that, do not accept what you see on the Internet, always try to
obtain confirmation elsewhere, preferably from printed sources. Use the
Internet as a guideline but not as gospel.
According to ES Volume II Tafel 79, Robert the Devil, Duke of Normandy had
two children by Harlette (here called Henriette)
1.William the Conqueror
2.Adelaide/Adela who died circa 1081/84
she married (1) Enguerrand II Count of Ponthieu
she married (2) Lambert de Boulogne, Count of Lens
she married (3) Eudes III Count of Champagne
According to ES Volme III/4 Tafel 694B
Harlette/Herleva/Henriette married Herluin Vicomte de Conteville,
and they had three (perhaps four) children
1.Odo, Earl of Kent, Regent of England, Bishop of Bayeux
2.Robert, Count of Mortain, Earl of Cornwall
3.Emma married Richard Le Goz, Vicomte d'Avranches
and the next child is maried under (II) presuming her to be by the second
wife of Herluin de Conteville, but not certain
an unnamed daughter who married Guillaume, Seigneur de La Ferte-Mace
Turton (be careful with this source)
gives "the" Lady Godiva no parents, and has her married to Leofric Earl of
Mercia
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (Michael Swanton) mentions the death of Leofric
but nothing about Godiva.
Frederick Lewis Weiss "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who
came to America before 1700" 7th Edition,
page 151 :
Leofric, d.Bromley co.Stafford (snip) married probably by 1030 (possibly as
her second husband) Godgifu (or Godiva), born probably ca.1010, sister of
Thorold of Buckingham, sheriff of Lincolnshire. Godgifu's ancestry is
uncertain, but she was evidently of an old, noble family. She is the "Lady
Godiva" of legend.
I hope this is more reliable than what you see on the Internet.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Tracy Scarpino
Godgifu/Godgyfu (Godiva) was a common name in the eleventh century.
Edward the Confessor's sister was named Godgifu. I have seen several
web sites mention "the" Lady Godiva as William the Conqueror's sister
but it's not the case - I don't think she would have been very
pleased about being called a Norman.
Tracy
betty.owen
do feel certain they are wrong, but I would like to see what they have to
say .
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Scarpino" <sca...@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
> At 12:52 AM -0500 6/19/01, C. Brown wrote:
betty.owen
this quote I believe comes from the domesday book that Thorold sheriff of
Lincolnshire... was her brother.... If I remember correctly the book does
quote it and I was curious a while back about her ancestry. Just a
note.... her sons followed Heward the Wake in the rebellion and he was from
Lincolnshire.I wanted to point out that he did not follow them... .. So I
think they at least knew each other's families... And her husband's nephew
Leofric (not to be confused with Leofric himself) was abbot over the
Petersbrough Abbey. After he died it was Brand who replaced him which by the
way was the Uncle of Hereward.... Mistakenly many have tried to put
Hereward as her son but he was not. His father was named Leofric of Bourne
(all which is not far from Petersburg and in Lincolnshire) his mother was
something like Avefiu (misspelled) In one book I have about hereward..... it
talks about the mistaken believe Hereward being the son of Leofric and
Godiva....
Supposedly his father was the grandson or son of Robert the
Staller...(which is Norman) I find that some what hard to believe but a
grandson removed might be possible. and his mother was suppose to e the
Great -grand daughter of the Duke of Oslac....... which I can find nothing
on!!!! Except he was exiled from something well that does fit the family
there Since poor Hereward seemed to get exiled all his life. I would like
to know who this Oslac was and what he did in history....Back to Godiva....
I do think there was a friendship or a relationship between these 2
families, I feel that both come from the same area. And I do think that
Godiva comes from that area. She also gave the Abbot of Ely donated a
convent a building. before she was married.(I feel certain that she came
from a well to do family which may have been why Leofric married her) Or it
was given in her name supposedly for thanking god for her recovery of an
illness that none thought she would survive from ---the story so goes she
even at one point had called off her marriage because she was so sick. but
later recovered and married... Now if you remember Ely was the place they
were held up during the rebellion..
Just food for thought.....
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leov...@iinet.net.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 2:59 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lynda <ly...@internetromance.org>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Tracy Scarpino
research into Godgyfu and Leofric of Mercia and didn't bookmark them
but somebody else mentioned they've seen them recently. -- Tracy
C. Brown
of Robert I "The Magnificent" Duke of Normandy, and Harlette de
Falaise. Godiva supposedly married Sir Knight Estmond of Bristol,
Gloucestershire, England. I have not taken this to be absolute truth,
as in historical texts I have not read anything of her. Therefore I
asked the group for any information.
On the other hand, whoever she is, she is found in many genealogies.
This is the way the genealogies go:
Godiva of Normandy m. Sir Knight of Estmond (Normandy; and
Gloucestershire, England)
daughter (Prioress) Eve Fitzestmond (abt 1099-1170) m. Robert "The
Devout" Fitzharding (abt 1095-1170) (who is also listed as the son of
Prince Harding of Denmark, m. to Livida) (Gloucestershire, Eng)
son Maurice "The Make Peace" Fitzrobert Fitzharding, (abt 1120-1190), m.
Alice de Berkeley, (abt 1135-1190) (Bristol, Gloucestershire; Berkeley,
Gloucestershire, England)
daughter Maud Fitzharding de Berkeley (abt 1160 - ), m. Elias Helias
Giffard (abt 1145-1177) (Brimsfield, Glocestershire, Eng)
son Osbert Giffard (abt 1188-1237), m. Isabel de Bokland (abt 1211 -
1242) (Brimsfield, Gloucestershire, Eng)
son John Giffard (abt 1235 - 1300), m. unknown (Twyford,
Buckinghamshire, Eng)
son John Giffard, (abt 1270-1328), m. Alexandra de (Lahaye) Gardinis
(abt 1279-1328) (Twyford, Buckinghamshire, Eng)
son John Giffard (abt 1301-1368), m. Lucy de (Elmbrugge) Morteyn (abt
1305-1361) (Twyford, Buckinghamshire, Eng; and Tillsworth, Bedfordshire,
Eng)
son Thomas Giffard (abt 1345-1394), m. Elizabeth de Missenden (abt
1339-1367) (Twyford, Buckinghamshire, Eng)
son Roger Giffard (abt 1367-1409), m. Elizabeth Seyton (abt 1372- )
(Twyford, Buckinghamshire, Eng)
daughter Catherine Giffard (abt 1399-1479), m. Thomas Billing (abt
1395-1481) (Twyford, Buckinghamshire; and Northamptonshire, Eng; then
Westminster, Middlesex, Eng)
son Nicholas Billing (abt 1429-1512), m. Agnes Gilbert (abt 1433- )
(Middleton Malzar, Northamptonshire, Eng)
son John Billings (abt 1500-1526), m. Agnes Bodgenve (abt 1502- )
(Middleton Malzar, Northamptonshire, Eng)
son William Billings (abt 1519-1557), m. Joan (abt 1508-1557) (Middleton
Malzar, Northamptonshire, Eng)
son Roger Billing or Billings (abt 1535-1546), m. Katherine (abt
1537-1566) (Middleton Malzar, Northamptonshire, Eng; and Taunton,
Somersetshire, Eng; then Baltonsborough, Somersetshire, Eng)
son Richard Billing or Billings (abt 1550-1604), m. Elizabeth Strong
(abt 1564- ) (Baltonsborough, Somersetshire, Eng; Taunton,
Somersetshire, Eng)
son William Billing or Billings (abt 1601- ), m. Mary (abt 1601- )
(Taunton, Somersetshire, Eng; Dorchester, Suffolk, Massachusetts)
son William Billings (abt 1628-1713), m. Mary Atherton (1636-1718)
(Taunton, Somersetshire, Eng; Dorchester, Suffolk, Mass; and Stonington,
New London, Connecticut)
son Ebenezer Billings (abt 1662-1727), m. Hannah Main (abt 1675 - )
(Connecticut)
daughter Judah Billings, abt 1683-1763), m. Jonathan Spalding
(1688-1761) (Connecticut)
daughter Dinah Spalding (1723-1812), m. Lt. Elijah Cady (1720-1812)
(Connecticut/New Hampshire)
daughter Priscilla Cady (1752-1793), m. Andrew Herrick (1752-1827)
(Connecticut)
and so on in the Colonies.
So my next question is, can any of this be authenticated? Once they
made it to the Colonies, the Cady's and the Herrick's are documented
well. I would not be surpised if much of this cannot be documented, as
I was initially surprised to even have a lineage back this far. Any
input is appreciated.
Thanks,
Carisa Brown
D. Spencer Hines
"Sir Knight Estmond" ????
Invention.
Blarney.
Guillaume, duc de Normandie did NOT have a sister named Godiva ---- or
Godgifu. He had a first cousin, once removed, named Godgifu
[c.1015-c.1056] ---- a daughter of Aethelred II 'The Unready' and a
sister of Edward 'The Confessor'. Godgifu married Dreux de Mantes,
comtes de Mantes et de Vexin, who died in the Holy Land at about 23, in
June 1035.
Guillaume had but one sister, Adelaide of Normandy [c.1030-c.1090],
Countess of Aumale.
Perhaps some pogue has screwed up and assigned Godgifu as a sister to
the wrong King of England ---- William instead of Edward.
Don't Trust Websites.
Just Use Them As Finding Aids ---- And Even Then *Very* Cautiously.
Confirm In Validated Print Sources.
----
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two
thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to
the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into
the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals]
(1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"C. Brown" <oima...@ttcu.com> wrote in message
news:3B2F80BB...@ttcu.com...
Chris Phillips
> This is the way the genealogies go:
> Godiva of Normandy m. Sir Knight of Estmond (Normandy; and
> Gloucestershire, England)
> daughter (Prioress) Eve Fitzestmond (abt 1099-1170) m. Robert "The
> Devout" Fitzharding (abt 1095-1170) (who is also listed as the son of
> Prince Harding of Denmark, m. to Livida) (Gloucestershire, Eng)
These people do appear on a number of web sites, as a quick search shows.
(In some, "Estmond" is described as Earl of Mercia.)
At any rate, Robert fitz Harding was a real person. His father, Harding fitz
Alnod (sadly, no Prince of Denmark) is discussed in Katherine Keats-Rohan's
"Domesday People" (p.244). She says that he was an Englishman, a young man
in 1086, and that his principal holding was the manor of Merriott (from
which he is called Harding de Meriet in a Somerset tax return) - he had lost
most of the lands that had been held by his father, Alnoth or Ednoth the
Constable.
She says nothing of his wife, but lists children Nicholas; Robert (who lived
until the 1170s); Cecilia; a daughter who was a nun of Shaftesbury; and
probably a son Baldwin.
She cites an article "Robert fitz Harding of Bristol..." by R. Patterson
(Haskins Society Journal vol.1, 1989), which would probably be the best
place to look for reliable information about Robert's wife (and to check
whether she was called Eve, and whether her parents were really called
Estmond and Godiva?).
Chris Phillips
GRHa...@cs.com
ly...@internetromance.org writes:
> I have just been visiting numerous sites, all declaring a sibling
> relationship between William the Conqueror and Lady Godiva.
>
>
>
>
Tell us which sites Lynda and perhaps someone can help you.
Gordon Reid Hale
D. Spencer Hines
| ly...@internetromance.org writes:
|
|
| > I have just been visiting numerous sites, all declaring a sibling
| > relationship between William the Conqueror and Lady Godiva.
So, What?
Lynda
Hi Gordon,
I wasn't seeking any help. Just wanted to bring to attention that Carisa
had likely gotten such a concept from the many sites on the internet
declaring such a relationship existed. I'm sorry if you read more into my
comment. I'm only new here and I guess it will take me some time to learn
just how touchy people can be with what you say.
Lynda
<GRHa...@cs.com> wrote in message news:112.87a50...@cs.com...
D. Spencer Hines
None of us here are mindreaders.
Cheers,
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two
thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to
the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into
the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals]
(1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"Lynda" <ly...@internetromance.org> wrote in message
news:3b2fd8d5$0$25472$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> If this is not so, then many genealogists are barking up the wrong tree, as
> I have just been visiting numerous sites, all declaring a sibling
> relationship between William the Conqueror and Lady Godiva.
That they are. Unfortunately, there is a longstanding tradition
of forging genealogical relationships to famous people, and this
would appear to be the product of just such an invention.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
And there are always supine fools to believe them.
Caveat Lector.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two
thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to
the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into
the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals]
(1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3B300347...@interfold.com...
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I have found many sites which lists Godiva of Normandy as the daughter
> of Robert I "The Magnificent" Duke of Normandy, and Harlette de
> Falaise.
That is unfortunate, but not unexpected, as the internet is full
of such misinformation.
> Godiva supposedly married Sir Knight Estmond of Bristol,
> Gloucestershire, England. I have not taken this to be absolute truth,
> as in historical texts I have not read anything of her. Therefore I
> asked the group for any information.
That was a prudent approach. As a word of warning, any time you
see "Sir Knight" in a genealogical source, it should be viewed
with extreme caution, as it demonstrates a lack of understanding
of the use of such titles, and by implication, of the period
being related. It is almost always a tip-off of bad genealogy.
> On the other hand, whoever she is, she is found in many genealogies.
Unfortunate, isn't it.
> This is the way the genealogies go:
> Godiva of Normandy m. Sir Knight of Estmond (Normandy; and
> Gloucestershire, England)
I have never seen Estmond as a name from this period - I suspect
some corruption has crept in here. As to Godiva, as I said
before, this is a name that never would have been used by the
dukes of Normandy. Not being familiar with the intricacies of
the Berkeley origins, I cannot say whether Godiva existed as
mother-in-law of Robert Fitz Harding but not sister of William,
or if her was entirely invented.
> daughter (Prioress) Eve Fitzestmond (abt 1099-1170) m. Robert "The
> Devout" Fitzharding (abt 1095-1170) (who is also listed as the son of
> Prince Harding of Denmark, m. to Livida) (Gloucestershire, Eng)
Harding was not prince of Denmark, but instead son of a
reasonably well documented Englishman.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> This is perhaps a mistaken association with Godiva of Envermeu - her father
> Hugo was a brother of Turold, bishop of Bayeux ca 1100, who may have become
> confused with his predeccessor, William the Conqueror's half brother.
This Hugo is the claimed son-in-law of Hereward the Wake?
taf
Kay Allen AG
FitzHarding did marry a Berkeley and assume the Berkeley name. But what
goes before is what is generally called a crock. :-)
Kay Allen AG
"C. Brown" wrote:
> I have found many sites which lists Godiva of Normandy as the daughter
> of Robert I "The Magnificent" Duke of Normandy, and Harlette de
> Falaise. Godiva supposedly married Sir Knight Estmond of Bristol,
> Gloucestershire, England. I have not taken this to be absolute truth,
> as in historical texts I have not read anything of her. Therefore I
> asked the group for any information.
> On the other hand, whoever she is, she is found in many genealogies.
>
> This is the way the genealogies go:
> Godiva of Normandy m. Sir Knight of Estmond (Normandy; and
> Gloucestershire, England)
> daughter (Prioress) Eve Fitzestmond (abt 1099-1170) m. Robert "The
> Devout" Fitzharding (abt 1095-1170) (who is also listed as the son of
> Prince Harding of Denmark, m. to Livida) (Gloucestershire, Eng)
> > > Looking for info on Lady Godiva, supposedly sister to William the
> > > Conqueror. This is not the same Godiva that took the famous ride.
> >
Stewart, Peter
> From: Chris Phillips [mailto:cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2001 4:28
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
> father, Harding fitz Alnod (sadly, no Prince of Denmark)
> is discussed in Katherine Keats-Rohan's "Domesday
> People" (p.244). She says that he was an Englishman, a
> young man in 1086, and that his principal holding was the
> manor of Merriott (from which he is called Harding de
> Meriet in a Somerset tax return) - he had lost most of the
> lands that had been held by his father, Alnoth or Ednoth
> the Constable.
>
> She says nothing of his wife, but lists children Nicholas;
> Robert (who lived until the 1170s); Cecilia; a daughter who
> was a nun of Shaftesbury; and probably a son Baldwin.
>
> She cites an article "Robert fitz Harding of Bristol..." by
> R. Patterson (Haskins Society Journal vol.1, 1989), which
> would probably be the best place to look for reliable
> information about Robert's wife (and to check whether she
> was called Eve, and whether her parents were really called
> Estmond and Godiva?).
Robert Patterson's article in the "Haskins Society Journal* 1 (1989) was
fully titled "Robert Fitz Harding of Bristol: Profile of an Early Angevin
Burgess-Baron Patrician and his Family's Urban Involvement". It's well worth
reading.
The subject reportedly died on 5 February 1171 and his wife Eve on 12 March
the same year, as prioress of St Michael's, Bristol. Her parents are
unknown.
Peter Stewart
Stewart, Peter
Yes - there appears to have been a nexus of marriages (at least claimed
ones) between English nobility in Lincolnshire connected to Hereward the
Outlaw & Normans who could be related to Turold the Sheriff (and/or whoever
was father of the Countess Lucy, as I'm not convinced it was the man
identified by Katherine Keats-Rohan).
Peter Stewart
Suzanne Doig
wrote:
>This is the way the genealogies go:
>Godiva of Normandy m. Sir Knight of Estmond (Normandy; and
>Gloucestershire, England)
>daughter (Prioress) Eve Fitzestmond (abt 1099-1170) m. Robert "The
>Devout" Fitzharding (abt 1095-1170) (who is also listed as the son of
>Prince Harding of Denmark, m. to Livida) (Gloucestershire, Eng)
You can break the genealogy at the above generation. According to the
'Complete Peerage' vol II pp 124-129, which is pretty reliable,
Maurice de Berkeley's parents were:
Robert fitz Harding, lord of Berkeley (c1095-5 Feb 1170/71), who was
possibly a merchant of Bristol, and Eve, Prioress of St Michael's
Hill, Bristol (?-12 Mar 1170).
CP gives no parentage for Eve (and the one above looks incredibly
dodgy) and says Robert was the son of Harding (as the name suggests),
but nowhere mentions that he was a prince (also unlikely). CP does say
that Harding might have been son of Eadnoth the Staller, who was
killed in 1068.
(Chris Phillips's message elsewhere in the thread refers to more
recent research on Robert).
>son Maurice "The Make Peace" Fitzrobert Fitzharding, (abt 1120-1190), m.
>Alice de Berkeley, (abt 1135-1190) (Bristol, Gloucestershire; Berkeley,
>Gloucestershire, England)
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
Suzanne Doig - sm...@it.canterbury.ac.nz
http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/
Chris Phillips
> According to the
> 'Complete Peerage' vol II pp 124-129, which is pretty reliable,
> Maurice de Berkeley's parents were:
>
> Robert fitz Harding, lord of Berkeley (c1095-5 Feb 1170/71), who was
> possibly a merchant of Bristol, and Eve, Prioress of St Michael's
> Hill, Bristol (?-12 Mar 1170).
>
> CP gives no parentage for Eve (and the one above looks incredibly
> dodgy) and says Robert was the son of Harding (as the name suggests),
> but nowhere mentions that he was a prince (also unlikely). CP does say
> that Harding might have been son of Eadnoth the Staller, who was
> killed in 1068.
Actually, there are a couple of comments on this tucked away in the
footnotes of CP. On p.124, note (d) says "The parentage of this Harding ...
has been hotly disputed. He has been termed "son of the King of Denmark" (as
in the petition of 1661), "Mayor of Bristol" and so forth." It then goes on
to mention as probable the theory that he was son of Eadnoth (as Keats-Rohan
says).
On p.125, note (c), by Vicary Gibbs, says that Eve, the wife of Robert "is
alleged to have been sister of Durand, da. of Sir Estmond, by Godiva, his
wife, a pedigree which J.H. Round denounces as "obviously absurd"."
Sadly, the losing side in this 19th-century controversy - as in others - has
been given a new lease of life by the Internet.
Chris Phillips
betty.owen
Okay I have a question is Turold a norman name or a Saxon name. My
perception is that The Lady Godiva was VERY Saxon.... If he is son in law of
Hereward then do u know who he married ? Or are u asking the question? I
have not heard of that one but I have no doubt with the way the rebellion
came off that two families had some sort of relationship as taf states
theorist seem to always want to match up or create relationships between
famous people... Hereward was not her son but was there some sort of
relationship between these families? So are you saying the sheriff is not
the brother of Lady Godiva the area is right for it
Betty
----- Original Message -----
betty.owen
Okay I have a question is Turold a norman name or a Saxon name. My
perception is that The Lady Godiva was VERY Saxon.... If he is son in law of
Hereward then do u know who he married ? Or are u asking the question? I
have not heard of that one but I have no doubt with the way the rebellion
came off that two families had some sort of relationship as taf states
theorist seem to always want to match up or create relationships between
famous people... Hereward was not her son but was there some sort of
relationship between these families? So are you saying the sheriff is not
the brother of Lady Godiva the area is right for it
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart, Peter" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 1:08 AM
Subject: RE: Lady Godiva
D. Spencer Hines
This is a wide occurrence.
Genealogies that have been thoroughly discredited in print years
ago ---- have now appeared on the Internet ---- and the slack, the
gullible, the lazy and the untutored are lapping them up like caviar.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two
thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to
the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into
the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals]
(1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"Chris Phillips" <cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk> wrote in message
news:003601c0f9ac$2193cf40$3c1a9fd4@oemcomputer...
C. Brown
use all of the sources cited to continue my research.
Thanks
Carisa
"C. Brown" wrote:
> Looking for info on Lady Godiva, supposedly sister to William the
> Conqueror. This is not the same Godiva that took the famous ride.
>
> Thanks,
> Carisa Brown
Stewart, Peter
> From: betty.owen [mailto:betty...@worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2001 3:22
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
>
> Okay I have a question is Turold a norman name or a Saxon name.
> My perception is that The Lady Godiva was VERY Saxon.... If he
> is son in law of Hereward then do u know who he married ? Or
> are u asking the question? I have not heard of that one but I have
> no doubt with the way the rebellion came off that two families
> had some sort of relationship as taf states
> theorist seem to always want to match up or create relationships
> between famous people... Hereward was not her son but was there
> some sort of relationship between these families? So are you saying
> the sheriff is not the brother of Lady Godiva the area is right for it
Godiva de Evermer (d'Envermeu), the wife of Richard de Rullos, chamberlain
to King Henry I, was a daughter of Hugo & supposedly a woman named Turfrida,
who may have been a daughter of, or otherwise related to, Hereward - I
haven't studied the lineage & maybe Todd or someone else can correct this.
Thorald, Turold & Thoraldr are variations on a name borne by several Normans
at the time of the conquest, which I suppose was originally Scandinavian -
it wasn't Saxon.
The relationship between Turold the Sheriff and the naked equestrienne Lady
Godiva can't be established for certain. For what it's worth, my hunch is
that he was a Norman with an English mother, and was possibly established in
Lincolnshire before the conquest, becoming sheriff very soon after October
1066. It seems arbitrary to reject the early statements that he was closely
related to Godiva, as her nephew or perhaps even her half-brother (uterine
if so, I guess). But that can't be proven and others would argue against it.
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Okay I have a question is Turold a norman name or a Saxon name.
In this case, it was probably viking. In some parts of England,
there had been scandinavian settlement for a couple of centuries,
and names of the two cultures can be found in the same families
(i.e. Leofric, Godiva's husband, had a brother Northman).
> My perception is that The Lady Godiva was VERY Saxon....
Actually, we know little of her family, other than guesses. What
we can say is that the name Godgifu was VERY Saxon.
> If he is son in law of Hereward then do u know who he married ?
Hugh of Evermue is said to have married the daughter of Hereward.
> Hereward was not her son but was there some sort of
> relationship between these families?
I don't think there is sufficient evidence to address this
question, one way or the other.
> So are you saying the sheriff is not
> the brother of Lady Godiva the area is right for it
No. He was saying he is not sure the Sheriff was father of
Lucy. This is a different man than either the supposed brother
of Godiva or the documented relative of Hereward.
taf
betty.owen
thanks for your response
This to my hidden passion this era and Heward is a favorite of mine.
> >
> > Hum,
> > Okay I have a question is Turold a norman name or a Saxon name.
> > My perception is that The Lady Godiva was VERY Saxon.... If he
> > is son in law of Hereward then do u know who he married ? Or
> > are u asking the question? I have not heard of that one but I have
> > no doubt with the way the rebellion came off that two families
> > had some sort of relationship as taf states
> > theorist seem to always want to match up or create relationships
> > between famous people... Hereward was not her son but was there
> > some sort of relationship between these families? So are you saying
> > the sheriff is not the brother of Lady Godiva the area is right for it
You said:
> Godiva de Evermer (d'Envermeu), the wife of Richard de Rullos, chamberlain
> to King Henry I, was a daughter of Hugo & supposedly a woman named
Turfrida,
I said:
Turfrida as legion goes was supposedly Hereward's Wife and was not Norman
but Flanders.There was some sort of relation ship between his family and
Flanders. BTW his godfather was suppose to be Gisebert of Ghent in
Northumberland (i guess my question is here is Ghent up that way not sure
about this statement) is suspected that she died fairly young as he also
picked up a reputation of being a womanizer.
> who may have been a daughter of, or otherwise related to, Hereward - I
> haven't studied the lineage & maybe Todd or someone else can correct this.
> You said:
> Thorald, Turold & Thoraldr are variations on a name borne by several
Normans
> at the time of the conquest, which I suppose was originally Scandinavian -
> it wasn't Saxon.
I said:
True but there were some strong relations between some of the saxon's
(prehaps a bad word) at the time I think they used English... and the
Scandinavian the Danish... Some spots were very Scandianvian and some
nobility was related to some of the Danish etc (scandianvian) the
Domesdays states he was her brother and Sheriff. That is the area it
appears she comes from or close to it. I guess the name is a wash here as it
would be possible for both norman or the English to have that name in there
culture.
> You said:
> The relationship between Turold the Sheriff and the naked equestrienne
Lady
> Godiva can't be established for certain. For what it's worth, my hunch is
> that he was a Norman with an English mother, and was possibly established
in
> Lincolnshire before the conquest, becoming sheriff very soon after October
> 1066. It seems arbitrary to reject the early statements that he was
closely
> related to Godiva, as her nephew or perhaps even her half-brother
I said: Well thank you for your hunch sometimes they are very important not
very docu. worthy prehaps but good to be able to hear someone elses oponion
and view point and to keep an open mind. Much is not documented very well
so it does make it hard. William and many wanted to make it appear that they
were not replacing the saxon noblity (which they were doing) making a saxon
(an Englishmen Sheriff from a well to do family) may not be such a
sacrrifice and keep some peace.
>
>
>
> > Betty
>
Tracy Scarpino
Stewart, Peter
> From: Tracy Scarpino [mailto:sca...@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Friday, 22 June 2001 2:40
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
>
>
> father, no?
We don't know how (if indeed at all) they were related, but Thorold the
Sheriff has been called Godiva's nephew or brother - on what evidence do you
think he might have been her father?
Peter Stewart
Tracy Scarpino
I've been researching Lady Godiva for a work of fiction I'm writing.
Many of the websites I've seen have said he was her father but I
think many said he could have been her father or brother... I'll try
and find some later when I get home and post the URLs here. I'm sure
it doesn't matter since nobody knows what her relation to him was -
these web sites were probably just guessing.
Tracy
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Sheriff Thorold of Lincoln might also have been Lady Godiva's father, no?
No. He was still living close to a century after the time of her
marriage.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Sheriff Thorold of Lincoln might also have been Lady Godiva's father, no?
No. He was still living close to a century after the time of her
marriage.
taf
Stewart, Peter
This is a mystery to me - Thorold the Sheriff was apparently dead in or
before 1079, and we don't know at what age he died.
If Godiva married Leofric of Mercia nearly a century before this, she must
have been very young indeed at the time or have lived to a great age, since
she seems to have died within a year or so of Hastings by most accounts. I
have seen a very long lifespan credited to her husband (ca 968-1057), though
I haven't checked on any evidence for this.
Can you enlighten us?
Peter Stewart
P A MagLOCHLAINN
really IS used - here in Northern Ireland. It is, in fact, the correct
style for members of the Royal Black Preceptory, one of the many weird and
wonderful semi-secret religio-political groups and organisations developed
by my Protestant and Presbyterian fellow Ulstermen.
The public parts of meetings of the many local chapters of this group
regularly take up many column inches of Northern Ireland's local newspapers,
consisting mostly of such items as "Sir Knight Willie McClatchie then
proposed a vote of thanks to the visiting speaker, ably seconded by Sir
Knight Samuel McCrea and Sir Knight Fred Cooke."
As Monty Python so aptly phrases it: "Nobody EVER expects the Spanish
Inquisition!"
Truly, there is no end to human silliness.
Yours cordially,
P A MagLOCHLAINN
in Belfast, Northern Ireland
====================
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message ...
>Hilarious!
>
>"Sir Knight Estmond" ????
>
>Invention.
>
>Blarney.
>
>Guillaume, duc de Normandie did NOT have a sister named Godiva ---- or
>Godgifu. He had a first cousin, once removed, named Godgifu
>[c.1015-c.1056] ---- a daughter of Aethelred II 'The Unready' and a
>sister of Edward 'The Confessor'. Godgifu married Dreux de Mantes,
>comtes de Mantes et de Vexin, who died in the Holy Land at about 23, in
>June 1035.
>
>Guillaume had but one sister, Adelaide of Normandy [c.1030-c.1090],
>Countess of Aumale.
>
>Perhaps some pogue has screwed up and assigned Godgifu as a sister to
>the wrong King of England ---- William instead of Edward.
>
>Don't Trust Websites.
>
>Just Use Them As Finding Aids ---- And Even Then *Very* Cautiously.
>
>Confirm In Validated Print Sources.
>----
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>"It may be said that, thanks to the 'clercs', humanity did evil for two
>thousand years, but honoured good. This contradiction was an honour to
>the human species, and formed the rift whereby civilisation slipped into
>the world." "La Trahison des clercs" [The Treason of the Intellectuals]
>(1927) Julien Benda (1867-1956)
>
>All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
>All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
>author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
>attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
>given, in writing.
>
>Vires et Honor.
>
>"C. Brown" <oima...@ttcu.com> wrote in message
>news:3B2F80BB...@ttcu.com...
>| I have found many sites which lists Godiva of Normandy as the daughter
>| of Robert I "The Magnificent" Duke of Normandy, and Harlette de
>| Falaise. Godiva supposedly married Sir Knight Estmond of Bristol,
>| Gloucestershire, England. I have not taken this to be absolute truth,
>| as in historical texts I have not read anything of her. Therefore I
>| asked the group for any information.
>| On the other hand, whoever she is, she is found in many genealogies.
>|
>| This is the way the genealogies go:
>| Godiva of Normandy m. Sir Knight of Estmond (Normandy; and
>| Gloucestershire, England)
>| daughter (Prioress) Eve Fitzestmond (abt 1099-1170) m. Robert "The
>| Devout" Fitzharding (abt 1095-1170) (who is also listed as the son of
>| Prince Harding of Denmark, m. to Livida) (Gloucestershire, Eng)
>| son Maurice "The Make Peace" Fitzrobert Fitzharding, (abt 1120-1190),
>m.
>| Alice de Berkeley, (abt 1135-1190) (Bristol, Gloucestershire;
>Berkeley,
>| Gloucestershire, England)
>| > "C. Brown" wrote:
>| > >
>| > > Looking for info on Lady Godiva, supposedly sister to William the
>| > > Conqueror. This is not the same Godiva that took the famous ride.
>| >