obasan (fill in the blanks)
Mark Crispin
>So it sounds like the sex/age chart fills out to something like this,
>_within_ a family:
No. These words are terms of address, and terms of reference for people
outside of your family in-group. There are entirely different terms
of reference for members of your family in-group when talking to an
out-group memeber..
Forget the `honorable' stuff for the `o-' prefix.
> Male Female
>------ ------
>ojisan obasan Honorable Grandfather/Grandmother (Uncle/Aunt)
ojisan is `uncle/older man'.
obasan is `aunt/woman old enough to be my mother'.
ojiisan is `grandfather/elderly man'.
obaasan is `grandmother/elderly woman'.
Long vowels are *very* important!!
>otosan okasan Honorable Father/Mother
otousan (oto^san) is `father'.
okasan is `mother'.
`otosan' would be `Mr. Oto'.
>onisan oneisan Honorable Big Brother/Sister
oniisan is `elder brother'.
oneesan is `elder sister'.
`onisan' is `Mr. Devil'.
`oneisan' is something like `Mr. Flatterer'.
> ?? ojo^san Honorable Little Brother/Sister
otoutosan is `younger brother'.
imoutosan is `younger sister'.
These are generally used only in reference to someone else's brother
or sister (that is, out-group) and not to address your own younger
brother or sister. Since you are in a higher position, you adjust
your language accordingly.
>Outside of a family, person X referring to a male person Y would use
>the age-appropriate title ("otosan" being considered a bit too
>familiar?).
If his name is Oto, then `Oto-san' would be proper. But to answer
your real question, no, you don't address strange men as `father',
unless in the context of addressing someone else's father. That is,
you may address your father-in-law as `otosan', or your friend's
father, etc.
>If person Y is an unrelated female, "oneisan" is also a bit too
>familiar, unless X is a child;
`oneesan' implies some amount of in-group status.
>"obasan" implies that Y is fairly
>old---it's inappropriate unless Y _is_ obviously old, and even then
>it's best to be polite.
Old enough to be your mother. Generally, adults don't use this except
as an insult. Old ladies are not well-considered in Japan. Consider
the adult male word for mother, `ofukuro' (literally, an honorific of
`bag').
>"Ojo^san" is acceptible for a younger Y (say,
>an adult talking to a Junior High student?), but the safest bet is the
>nonspecific "okusan".
You don't call an unmarried woman `okusan'. Think of `okusan' as
being `Mrs' and `ojo^san' as `Miss'.
>"Okasan", like "otosan", is not used outside of
>the family. Corrections, anyone?
Again, it depends. If this person is the father of someone associated
with you who is of equal status, then it may be appropriate to use it
as a form of address or reference as a title.
>Is "okasan" (within the family) actually "okusan", and I just mis-hear
>what they're saying?
`okasan' is the title `mother'. `okusan' is not used within the
family in-group; it is *always* an external reference.
>What is the male parallel for "ojo^san"?
There really isn't one for `ojo^san' in the context of `Miss'.
Perhaps `oi! omae!' ;-)
Consult Jorden for more than you ever wanted to know about family
relation words.
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Mark Crispin
>>Long vowels are *very* important!!
You should listen very carefully. Screwing up long vowels is the
biggest mistake that foreigners make when studying Japanese. Remember
that Japanese is spoken at a more or less constant rhythm, almost like
a machine gun. All mora, both the second part of a long vowel and a
syllabic n, have a constant duration.
>I'll have to check some of my tapes. A friend of mine (Okinawan-born,
>Japanese student) had told me that "ojisan" could mean "grandfather"
>or "uncle". I'll have to talk with her about this.
That's somewhat like asking someone from rural Alabama about American
English. Yes, educated people from Okinawa understand and can speak
standard Japanese, but there is a strong regional dialect.
>Speaking of Ranma, a lot of the time, he calls his father something
>along the lines of "oyaji". What does this mean?
It means `my father'. It's somewhat of a rough masculine word, almost
like `my old man'. Ranma speaks in a very rough boy's language, noted
by impolite forms, impolite words, and various pronunciation
modifications. The most obvious of this is To^kyo^-ben, changing
trailing `-ai' to `-ei' in verbs/adjectives, and trailing `ae' to to
`ei' or `e^' in nouns. For example, a typical Ranma insult at Akane:
ome^ ga kawaikunei...iroke ga nei
which in standard Japanese is
omae ga kawaikunai...iroke ga nai
`you are not cute...have no sex appeal'
Derek Upham
But anyway...
m...@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:
>ojiisan is `grandfather/elderly man'.
>obaasan is `grandmother/elderly woman'.
>Long vowels are *very* important!!
I don't think I've EVER heard the long vowels used with these forms.
I'll have to check some of my tapes. A friend of mine (Okinawan-born,
Japanese student) had told me that "ojisan" could mean "grandfather"
or "uncle". I'll have to talk with her about this.
>oniisan is `elder brother'.
>oneesan is `elder sister'.
In the second Fuschicho^gan episode in Ranma 1/2, there's that
"oniisan"/"oneesan" exchange. I'll have to see if they lengthen the
vowels here, as well.
Speaking of Ranma, a lot of the time, he calls his father something
along the lines of "oyaji". What does this mean?
Derek
--
Derek Lynn Upham University of Washington
sa...@u.washington.edu University Computing Services Operations
=============================================================================
"Ha! Your Leaping Tiger Kung Fu is no match for my Frightened Piglet Style!"
chan Janin)
>But anyway...
>
>
Definitely YES, there are some ! I'm living here, you can thrust me.
>Japanese student) had told me that "ojisan" could mean "grandfather"
>or "uncle". I'll have to talk with her about this.
"ojiisan" means "grandfather" (or "silly old man" if you're talking
to a not-old guy...)
"ojisan" means "uncle"
...as far as I can remember to have used it.
>
>>oniisan is `elder brother'.
>>oneesan is `elder sister'.
That's true.
>
>In the second Fuschicho^gan episode in Ranma 1/2, there's that
>"oniisan"/"oneesan" exchange. I'll have to see if they lengthen the
>vowels here, as well.
Akane lengthens the vowels when she's speaking to her old sisters
(Nabiki oneEchan, kasumi oneEchan).
But the doubled vowels aren't very easy to hear...
>
>Speaking of Ranma, a lot of the time, he calls his father something
>along the lines of "oyaji". What does this mean?
>
"oyaji" is a very familiar word for "otoosan" (daddy).
Maybe, sometimes it can be taken as "silly/stupid father" when
Ranma used to shout it loudly !
>Derek
>--
>Derek Lynn Upham University of Washington
Hope this helps.
P-chan.
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