AN OPEN LETTER TO REV APPLEGATE
Kenneth R. Belferman
> Frequently Asked Questions on Alt.Messianic
> [Last Change: Date: 2/9/95 Revision: 1.00]
> [Last Post: 2/9/95 20:07:23]
>
Rev. Applegate:
I am sorry to say that this FAQ does not have my support, for a number
of reasons.
1) The section titled "How did alt.messianic originate" appears to be
inaccurate based on the postings I have seen, which include
correspondence involving Andrew Burt, and Mr. Burt's original
announcement for the group.
2) "The purpose of alt.messianic" is not as you have stated. I believe
you are deliberately denying the original intent of this group in order
to serve your own goals and purposes. It is not that I would not
support those goals and purposes in another forum - but they are not
relevant to alt.messianic.
3) The FAQ may reflect frequently asked questions about Messianic
Judaism but does not serve its intended purpose of addressing the
frequently asked questions on alt.messianic. This would *require* the
input of those people who have been involved in the group and who
represent and are knowledgeable about the Torah/Rabbinic perspective.
As I have written to you previously, alt.messianic is a place for the
*free* exchange of ideas among Jews (and Gentiles) who happen to have
(quite often) opposing views. There is nothing wrong with this.
Granted, there are some people who enjoy indulging in meaningless
rhetoric and personal attacks. This is to be expected but not
something that should be encouraged or condoned.
The bottom line for me is that I believe alt.messianic has dealt with
issues that *need* to be addressed. I cannot at this time support any
move to significantly alter this.
Your FAQ is, on the whole, not too bad. It just isn't the right one for
alt.messianic.
Shalom.
Ken B.
JRAPPLEGA
time to vote. However....
>1) The section titled "How did alt.messianic originate" appears to be
>inaccurate based on the postings I have seen, which include
>correspondence involving Andrew Burt, and Mr. Burt's original
>announcement for the group.
They have posted one message taken out of context... the dispute that
originated that message was not over the newsgroup but over the name... I
wanted alt.messianic.jewish, the Pharisees wanted
alt.messianic.christian... Dr. Burt decided to avoid the conflict under
the premise that Jews would be allowed to enter the discussion... there is
nothing in the FAQ that denies their right of participation, only their
right to use it as a forum for their vehement and groundless attacks on
our Jewish heritage and roots, our personal lives, and our access to the
net. It sets ground rules for peacful discourse without the hatemongering
so previlent amongst these persons. The reason for the group was the
discussion of Messianic Judaism and the identity of Messiah... not a place
to insult and attack true and completed Jews by those who have lost touch
with the faith of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, and David, and rejected
the promised seed of Meshiach.
>2) "The purpose of alt.messianic" is not as you have stated. I believe
>you are deliberately denying the original intent of this group in order
>to serve your own goals and purposes. It is not that I would not
>support those goals and purposes in another forum - but they are not
>relevant to alt.messianic.
Several weeks ago a new Messianic wandered into alt.messianic with
questions pertaining to the location of a shule. He was attacked and told
that such questions do not belong here. The bigots who have murdered true
and completed Jews for two thousand years have driven us out of the nets
Jewish community and now would drive us out of our own. Sounds like an
Internet KristallNacht to me...
>3) The FAQ may reflect frequently asked questions about Messianic
>Judaism but does not serve its intended purpose of addressing the
>frequently asked questions on alt.messianic. This would *require* the
>input of those people who have been involved in the group and who
>represent and are knowledgeable about the Torah/Rabbinic perspective.
They can place those items in their own FAQ... they have
soc.culture.jewish and have driven us from there... this is alt.messianic
not alt.persecute.true.jews
>As I have written to you previously, alt.messianic is a place for the
>*free* exchange of ideas among Jews (and Gentiles) who happen to have
>(quite often) opposing views. There is nothing wrong with this.
>Granted, there are some people who enjoy indulging in meaningless
>rhetoric and personal attacks. This is to be expected but not
>something that should be encouraged or condoned.
None of those concepts are forbidden by the FAQ in question. Only the
attempt to turn it into another Rabbinic Jewish forum and exclude
Messianics are being halted.
Rev. J. R. Applegate
Lily of the Valley Ministries
Jack Nadelman 906
JRAPPLEGA <jrap...@aol.com> wrote:
>The bigots who have murdered true
>and completed Jews for two thousand years have driven us out of the nets
>Jewish community and now would drive us out of our own. Sounds like an
>Internet KristallNacht to me...
All you need is a nice rubber room. Jews have never murdered Xians.
And I have many born again fundamentalist Xian friends that I love.
Why do you try to stir up hatred between Jews and Xians? Certainly
you know KristallNacht was inspired by the writings of the great Xian
leader Luther. And you are following in his footsteps. Do you think
that if you tell a big enough lie it will be believed? I used to find
your rantings and paranoia humorous. But you are beginning to
frighten me. I probably shouldn't be talking to you.
Jack
--
Jack.N...@telematics.com
Telematics International Inc
1201 West Cypress Creek Road
Ft Lauderdale, FL 33309 USA
Moshe Shulman
>We alloted one whole month for comments... that time is past... now is the
>time to vote. However....
The grammer is wrong here Rev. It should be "I alloted one month", there is no
one here who seems to agree with ypour method of imposing your will.
>>As I have written to you previously, alt.messianic is a place for the
>>*free* exchange of ideas among Jews (and Gentiles) who happen to have
>>(quite often) opposing views. There is nothing wrong with this.
>>Granted, there are some people who enjoy indulging in meaningless
>>rhetoric and personal attacks. This is to be expected but not
>>something that should be encouraged or condoned.
>None of those concepts are forbidden by the FAQ in question. Only the
>attempt to turn it into another Rabbinic Jewish forum and exclude
>Messianics are being halted.
Considering how little time you spend here, and how much less of that time is
spent in discussions with other people, your comments are absurd. I am the most
vocal expositor of the halacha that excludes MJ's from the Jewish people, but I
don't think any of the MJ's here think I mean it as part of personnal animosity.
I would say the same thing to a Hindu-Jew. Quite frankly, if there wouldbe a
moderator here, you would NOT be qualified to do the job. You do not have the
temprement to deal with other people.
JRAPPLEGA
Oh, lets see, who tried the Messiah and turned him over to the Romans?
Who stood in the streets calling for his death?
Who stoned Stephen, and then placed his bloodied robes at Saul's feet?
What sect did Saul belong to before becoming a Messianic?
Who sought to kill Saul in Jerusalem, causing his to proclaim his Ramon
citizenship as protection?
Who (according to 2nd century writers) divided James with a sword?
And these are only the recorded events...
All those who continue to promulgate the lie that Christianity is
anti-Semitic should consider what the Jews of 1st century Palestine did to
those who accepted Y'shua as Messiah!
The world is filled with fanatics who will kill without reason claiming
that they are defending their faith... but their hands, no matter what
their claimed faith are just as dirty as the hands of Cain.. filthy with
the blood of their brethren!
H...@icf.hrb.com
> >All you need is a nice rubber room. Jews have never murdered Xians.
>
> Oh, lets see, who tried the Messiah and turned him over to the Romans?
As far as I know, Rabbi Schneerson was never in Italy. It was a previous
Lubavitcher Rebbe who had been arrested and that was by the Tsar in
Russia, not by the Italians in Rome.
> Who stood in the streets calling for his death?
Obviously, the Christians who wanted to have the prophesy they believed
in fulfilled.
> Who stoned Stephen, and then placed his bloodied robes at Saul's feet?
Was this Stephen an adulterer who had been condemned by the court? I
thought that by the time Saul (is this the same as Paul the con man?)
lived, the Roman Empire controlled all executions and they used crucifixion.
> What sect did Saul belong to before becoming a Messianic?
Wasn't he supposed to have been a tax collector (in those days often the
same profession as highway robbery). Isn't he supposed to have claimed
membership in any group he was talking to in order to con them into
listening to him?
Actually, every group has people they are ashamed to say claimed
membership. Saul may have been ours, but you certainly seem to be the
SCMJ's.
> Who sought to kill Saul in Jerusalem, causing his to proclaim his Ramon
> citizenship as protection?
Isn't Ramon a Spanish name? I thought the Spanish inquisitition was
1300 years later about.
> Who (according to 2nd century writers) divided James with a sword?
Wasn't it Julius Caesar who came up with the Gaul bladder operation?
(Gaul is divided in three parts). Are you saying that the real name of
the country was James?
>
> And these are only the recorded events...
Since we don't accept the source of the documents, it doesn't really
matter what you claim.
The previous "answers" are given in the same spirit of "truth" as your
alleged "FAQ" (Foolish assinine quotation list).
>
> All those who continue to promulgate the lie that Christianity is
> anti-Semitic should consider what the Jews of 1st century Palestine did to
> those who accepted Y'shua as Messiah!
Actually, if they behaved as you do, I can understand why their message
was rejected by the people who knew enough to understand what they were
saying.
>
> The world is filled with fanatics who will kill without reason claiming
> that they are defending their faith... but their hands, no matter what
> their claimed faith are just as dirty as the hands of Cain.. filthy with
> the blood of their brethren!
Then shouldn't you wash your hands? (Or do you consider that Pilate did
it for you)
>
> Rev. J. R. Applegate
> Lily of the Valley Ministries
Why name a church after a cologne?
>
__________________________________________________________________________
| Hillel Eli Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore" |
| H.E.Ma...@hrb.com | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water. |
|__________________________|_____________________________________________|
Joe Halpin
>On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, JRAPPLEGA wrote:
>Actually, every group has people they are ashamed to say claimed
>membership. Saul may have been ours, but you certainly seem to be the
>SCMJ's.
I'm afraid I'm making myself look foolish by asking this, but what
does SCMJ mean?
Joe
--
Joe Halpin
jha...@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
xan...@uctvms.uct.ac.za
> The bigots who have murdered true
> and completed Jews for two thousand years have driven us out of the nets
> Jewish community and now would drive us out of our own. Sounds like an
> Internet KristallNacht to me...
>
How dare you! You who know nothing of Judaism, the Tenach, G-d or anything else
for that matter. You want to call us "bigots who have murdered true and
completed "Jews"" - show me one instance you bigot! If had mudered your stupid
god we would have done a better job of it! Jews do not have a history of going
around killing other Jews no matter what their persuation is. We might try and
show him the TRUTH and not the pack of lies that you try to show them.
And who do you think started KristallNacht - you blood worshipping xtians. It
was Luthers interpretation of the NT that brought about KristallNacht. It was
your stupid god that brought about Kristallnacht by having his disciple say
that the Jews are the sons of the Devil. Nothing more need to be said about
your hate breeding religion.
If there are any people causing a "KristallNacht" on the Jews now - it is the
likes of you who try to destroy Jewish souls and burn them on the alters of a
pagan unrighteous religion.
I do not perticulary care why or how this newgroup came about - but if there
are going to be people distorting the Torah and saying disgusting things about
our Living G-d, then you are going to get a response.
I have yet to meet such a *true* and/or *completed* Jew that believes in your
twaddle. They have all had problems in the past - and they now just cover those
problems now in some false belief.
The *t *true* Jews are those Jews that died with the Shma on their lips in the
gas chambers that you xtians built for them. The *completed* Jews are those
Jews who now stand up against you who have perfected the gas chamber into
xtian "love" and soul saving.
> They can place those items in their own FAQ... they have
> soc.culture.jewish and have driven us from there... this is alt.messianic
> not alt.persecute.true.jews
right - so why don't you get off!
> None of those concepts are forbidden by the FAQ in question. Only the
> attempt to turn it into another Rabbinic Jewish forum and exclude
> Messianics are being halted.
exclude messianics from what! There seems to be sufficient debate here between
those who purport to be "messianic" and *true* Jews. Why are you using your own
terminology here? What's this about Rabbinic Jews and True Jews to me and most
Jews they are the same. If there is anyone spreading falsehood here - that is
you and your like!
> Rev. J. R. Applegate
> Lily of the Valley Ministries
Alex Goodman
(I hope I have removed all the expletives!)
Amos Wittenberg
In article <jhalpinD...@netcom.com> jha...@netcom.com "Joe Halpin" writes:
>I'm afraid I'm making myself look foolish by asking this, but what
>does SCMJ mean?
So-called "Messianic Jews".
It's a FLA (Four-Lettered Acronym).
--
Amos Wittenberg
... am...@metallia.demon.co.uk ...
Warren Burstein
>The bigots who have murdered true
>and completed Jews for two thousand years have driven us out of the nets
>Jewish community and now would drive us out of our own. Sounds like an
>Internet KristallNacht to me...
Sounds like Serdar Argic to me, now that it's no longer cool to be a
persecutor, he doesn't just deny that any persecution took place (or
that he wasn't responsible, which would be a reasonable claim), but
that he's the victim.
> this is alt.messianic not alt.persecute.true.jews
The definition of "True Jew" is precisely the question this newsgroup
was set up to debate.
--
/|/-\/-\ A lot of antipasto,
|__/__/_/ you didn't get it
|warren@
/ nysernet.org
YaNeice Frias
with you, from one jew to another! these anti semitics(?) that are always
trying to use REPLACEMENT of the church for the jews, will never be able to do
it! Saul was a rabbi, and never turned away from his jewishness, and the first
people to be callled christians in Antioch, were not jews, but gentiles...yes
even they can get saved! most mj's know better than to go around and called
themselvs annointed ones! we are only saved by grace so we remain believing
jews till Messiach comes, and we are not saints(oh thank G_D) we are elected
ones, and that too was done before the foundation of the earth was laid! about
the mormans, they built their university on the top of the mt. of olives, but
they don't always read ALL scriptures, for the mt.will cleave in half Isa. so
good-bye university, and Arafats hotel..yeck! yes unbelievers can live in
Israel, heathens, and what nots(but there still is hope) but not a believing
jew who believes in YESHUA. now turn to the book of Amos 8:11 and read what
these people are helping to bring to pass Baruch Ha SHEM!!!
1Shalom from YaNeice Frias
--
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Joe Slater
>BS"D
>In article <jhalpinD...@netcom.com> jha...@netcom.com "Joe Halpin" writes:
>>I'm afraid I'm making myself look foolish by asking this, but what
>>does SCMJ mean?
>So-called "Messianic Jews".
>It's a FLA (Four-Lettered Acronym).
Not quite. It's an ETLA - Expanded Three Letter Acronym.
jds
Amos Wittenberg
In article <3idpcc$gro$1...@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au>
j...@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au "Joe Slater" writes:
>am...@metallia.demon.co.uk (Amos Wittenberg) writes:
>>In article <jhalpinD...@netcom.com> jha...@netcom.com "Joe Halpin"
> writes:
>>>I'm afraid I'm making myself look foolish by asking this, but what
>>>does SCMJ mean?
>>So-called "Messianic Jews".
>>It's a FLA (Four-Lettered Acronym).
>Not quite. It's an ETLA - Expanded Three Letter Acronym.
Errr, thinking about this a bit more, I would say that it is really a
QTLA - a Qualified Two Letter Acronym ;-)
Moshe Shulman
> MS> vocal expositor of the halacha that
> MS> excludes MJ's from the Jewish people,
> MS> but I
> MS> don't think any of the MJ's here think I
> MS> mean it as part of personnal animosity.
>Huh? You do not have personal animosity? come on Moshe, i cannot agree to
>that. You regularly flame MJ's and you especially have personally called me a
>liar, and many other names...
Please learn to read Harvey, the comment was made with regards to the halachic
implications of your apostacy. However, I have never denied that I do not think
highly of you. Need we discuss 'Rabbi' Harvey Smith? BTW you have not yet told
me what this thing called Shmeechah is that your church gave you.
>Are you now going to moderate your position? I don't buy into your camaflouge
>for one minute. You have offended us over and over, but then
>Moshe, we always turn the other cheek and you depend on this... don't you?
I speak as my namesake in the Torah, Moshe Rabbani did.
>Your animosity is certain and it certainly can be construed to be of a personal
>nature. Not only that Moshe, we don't have any cares about what you think
>about us anyway... And guess what, no matter how you hollar,
>We are ethnic Jews.
Maybe ti you and others like you, but that is not true with regards to all the
poor souls who have decided to leave the Jewish people as you have.
>You guys are just too much. First you attempt to denigrate us, you and JL,
>that we never were Jews, and that we are pretenders and don't even have Jewish
>mothers, etc.... You insult our integrity, our heritage, and our
>faith.
I never said that you were NEVER a Jew, I said that the halacha no longer
considers you as one. You have lost all the rewards of membership in the Jewish
people. You will be buried with the goyim to whom you have joined yourself. No
Kaddish will be said for your poor soul after it leaves your body. And you will
be forever rejected from that reward which should have been yours by birth.
>Now you want to say that MJ's are no longer Jews. But guess what. You are not
>the last say in the matter. I will be dancing the Hora during the Kingdom age,
>and i hope i will see you there... It is G-d who says who is and who isn't..
I have heard that from Mormons, and many others. Just hopeful thinking.
> MS> I would say the same thing to a
> MS> Hindu-Jew.
>But do you? Do you say it to the Jewish witches, Do you say it to the Jewish,
>Scientologists, Do you say it to all the Jews who practice Hinduism, namely
>Transcendental Meditation, or who follow gurus??
Yes, and I think you have read me say such things on your Bible conerence in
FIDO.
>come on Moshe, you know that the Rabbis turn their heads at all these things
>that the Jewish community is involved in. In fact you can go to your local
>JCCA, and get involved in Hinduism..
I don't even know what a JCCA is, and I doubt that there is even one in my
community.
>Nope your bias is only against your Messiah. And I will gladly go outside the
>camp, and bear His reproach with Him. I count it a pleasure to be listed as an
>outcast with my Messiah....
ROTFL.
>Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
That should be Rabbi Rev. Harvey Smith.
--
/\ /\
____/_ \____ ____/_ \____
\ ___\ \ / Moshe Shulman \ ___\ \ /
\/ / \/ / \/ / \/ /
/ /\__/_/\ mshu...@ix.netcom.com / /\__/_/\
/__\ \_____\ /__\ \_____\
\ / \ /
\/ \/
Kenneth R. Belferman
A.. by Amos Wittenberg@metallia
Actually, it's not an acronym at all - just an abbreviation.
:^)
Amos Wittenberg
In article <kjGyw5_00...@andrew.cmu.edu> kb...@andrew.cmu.edu
"Kenneth R. Belferman" writes:
>>In article <3idpcc$gro$1...@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au>
>>j...@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au "Joe Slater" writes:
>>>am...@metallia.demon.co.uk (Amos Wittenberg) writes:
>>>>In article <jhalpinD...@netcom.com> jha...@netcom.com "Joe Halpin"
>>>writes:
>>>>>I'm afraid I'm making myself look foolish by asking this, but what
>>>>>does SCMJ mean?
>>>>So-called "Messianic Jews".
>>>>It's a FLA (Four-Lettered Acronym).
>>>Not quite. It's an ETLA - Expanded Three Letter Acronym.
>>Errr, thinking about this a bit more, I would say that it is really a
>>QTLA - a Qualified Two Letter Acronym ;-)
>Actually, it's not an acronym at all - just an abbreviation.
>:^)
You are right. But I hope you agree that FLA is a TLA and ETLA and QTLA
are FLA's ;-)
xan...@uctvms.uct.ac.za
> You regularly flame MJ's and you especially have personally called me a
> liar, and many other names...
So do I, Harvey, but what else do you call someone who misrepresents Judaism,
mistranslates Hebrew verses, misinforms people of what Judaism believes. I
think in a court of law that would constitute lying and some other things.
But are you not doing the same to us. We are also receiving flame mail, etc.
Gee I have been given lots of one-way tickets to Hell already. Nu Nu that's the
price of having your say here in alt.messianic.
>
> Are you now going to moderate your position? I don't buy into your camaflouge
> for one minute. You have offended us over and over, but then
> Moshe, we always turn the other cheek and you depend on this... don't you?
And when you bastardise the Torah - that must not offend us. We must turn the
other cheek. That is not what Moshe is saying here.
> We are ethnic Jews.
Ok, I have never claimed that anyone who is born from a identifiable Jewish
mother is not Jewish based on what he or she believes. In fact if that was the
case then there would be absolutely no reason to respond on this forum as we
Jews would say - well you not Jewish - you do not fall under the Law anymore
and so why bother. Obviously we *do* bother, we do recognise that you are Jews
and we want to teach you the truth in the Torah. We want to do this so that we
can bring about the Messianic Era before it's appointed time. This is
attainable if all Jews do things that proper Jews are supposed to. If xtianity
was the way then something should have happened in the last 2000 years.
But there is a de'ah that says that if a Jew follows another god or practices
another religion other than the one dictated by the Torah - that these Jews
have to undergo a processes which is *similar* to conversion to return to
Judaism. This includes renouncing anything non-Jewish that was believed before
and going to the Mikveh. This shows how much believing in something not Jewish
can affect one's status as a Jew. But the accepted position is that all are
Jews and that can never be changed.
This has it's own ramifications as well. Because G-d will judge you as a Jew
and not as a Gentile. He gave the Torah to you and not to the Gentile. So there
is much more to loose as a Jew than a Gentile believing that some guy that died
2000 years ago was/is god.
> But do you? Do you say it to the Jewish witches, Do you say it to the Jewish,
> Scientologists, Do you say it to all the Jews who practice Hinduism, namely
> Transcendental Meditation, or who follow gurus??
I do - I cannot speak to Moshe - but yes, anything that is not Torah Judaism
will get the same message from me. But there is one major difference. The
witches, scientologists, hindus, TMs, or whatever do not try to justify their
beliefs on our Torah. They do not mistranslate verses to prove their veracity.
> come on Moshe, you know that the Rabbis turn their heads at all these things
> that the Jewish community is involved in. In fact you can go to your local
> JCCA, and get involved in Hinduism..
Really - my Rabbi was knocking people for going to movies on Saturday Night
after Shabbat. Most Rabbis that I know do not "turn" their heads at other
things and go against xtianity exclusively. There are those that turn a blind
eye - but they do that to everything and there are those that oppose Jews
leaving their path for some foolishness.
> Nope your bias is only against your Messiah. And I will gladly go outside the
> camp, and bear His reproach with Him. I count it a pleasure to be listed as an
> outcast with my Messiah....
I love my Messiah. He is going to be the king of Israel. He is going to bring
about a revelation of G-dliness in this world.
You are an outcast - but a Jewish outcast - and you do not have a messiah of
any sort because the true Messiah will show the True G-d.
Cheers Harvey
Alex Goodman
Michel Cromwell
Do you honestly think that G_d (who is the creator of us ALL)
really cares what we label ourselves??? Whether our blood is mixed, or
pure, He loves us all...and a name, culture and nationality don't mean a
thing to Him. Why all the concern about whether we're Jewish or not
Jewish...shouldn't we be more concerned with our relationship to G_d?
G_d separated the Jews to have a unique relationship with Him...not to
exclude others from knowing Him.
Joe Halpin
>
> Do you honestly think that G_d (who is the creator of us ALL)
>really cares what we label ourselves??? Whether our blood is mixed, or
>pure, He loves us all...and a name, culture and nationality don't mean a
>thing to Him. Why all the concern about whether we're Jewish or not
>Jewish...shouldn't we be more concerned with our relationship to G_d?
>G_d separated the Jews to have a unique relationship with Him...not to
>exclude others from knowing Him.
Well, both the Tanach and the NT make quite a point of asserting that
G-d does indeed make a distinction between Jew and Gentile, and that
He has requirements for Jews that do not apply to Gentiles.
Certainly He loves us all, and we should all be concerned with our
relationship to Him. However, that relationship involves us being
obedient to what He's told us to do. What kind of concern for our
relationship with Him would allow us to be apathetic about His wishes?
joe