Programming the Apple IIe via the cassette in
John Syer
I have just resurected my Base48 (Apple IIe clone) and found that my
entire collection of 5.25" floppies have passed on. I remember in the past
one of my apple user friends booted his machine via the cassette in (and a
tape player). Has anyone thought of connecting the audio output of a Mac or
PC to the cassette input of the Apple II and sending instructions that way?
I do not have a serial card for the Apple so I cannot get an operating
system to the machine using ADT.
If this has not been done, I would be interested in exploring the
possibilities although I would need an image of dos3.3 or prodos, and
information about the cassette interface.
Kind regards,
John Syer (jsy...@SPAMlabyrinth.net.au)
[remove the NO SPAM from my email address]
Simon Williams
I've succeeded in using my Mac as a very expensive tape recorder. It is
very slow, and takes a bit of fiddling with the levels, but it will
work. I only bothered to save and load some quick BASIC progs, so I'm
not at all sure how you'd go about getting DOS on tape, but I'm sure I
read something about saving binary files to tape....
I've actually been meaning to figure this out so I can post a .wav file
of DOS 3.3 and ProDOS on my site (for exactly this purpose), but I
somehow keep getting sidetracked... perhaps I'm just worried about what
Apple's lawyers would do to me ;-)
-simon
--
=LUDDITE ENTERPRISES=
http://www.luddite.ca
Bill Garber
> somehow keep getting sidetracked... perhaps I'm just worried about what
> Apple's lawyers would do to me ;-)
Having had enough of hearing about Apple Corporation's lawyers,
let me say this. If they really cared, they would still be selling their
wares and supporting the Apple II line. Geez, just go ahead and do
it. They don't care, trust me.
Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises
http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
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Eric Smith
>> Apple's lawyers would do to me ;-)
"Bill Garber" <will...@comcast.net> writes:
> Having had enough of hearing about Apple Corporation's lawyers,
> let me say this. If they really cared, they would still be selling their
> wares and supporting the Apple II line. Geez, just go ahead and do
> it. They don't care, trust me.
You apparently don't understand lawyers or business.
Lawyers are paid to care. They do care, because that's how they make
money. But they aren't going to send out a Cease and Desist letter
unless they notice, and they're not being paid to sniff around Usenet
groups looking for people to pounce on. However, if something is
brought to their attention, you can believe that a C&D will be sent.
This also has *nothing* to do with whether the vendor cares enough to
continue making the product. That decision is based on how much profit
it generates. Sure, they could sell a few thousand new Apple II
computers every year if they brought it back. But for the same
resources that would require, they can build new products instead, that
will sell hundreds of thousands of units and thus bring in a profit
rather than a loss. It's a simple matter of ROI (Return On Investment).
The fact that you *could* sell something doesn't mean that you would
make any money on it, or that you wouldn't make more money doing
something else instead.
The real problem is that copyright law as it currently exists in the
US fails in its mission "To promote the Progress of Science and useful
Arts", in that the copyright term is so long that most works will no
longer exist by the time they are elgible to enter the public domain.
And thanks to the brain-damaged Supreme Court decision in the Eldred
case, Congress can continue to extend the term of copyright indefinitely
(and even retroactively).
Simon Williams
> > somehow keep getting sidetracked... perhaps I'm just worried about what
> > Apple's lawyers would do to me ;-)
>
> Having had enough of hearing about Apple Corporation's lawyers,
> let me say this. If they really cared, they would still be selling their
> wares and supporting the Apple II line. Geez, just go ahead and do
> it. They don't care, trust me.
I don't know about Apple II stuff, but I've seen a few classic Mac sites
that have been dinged by Apple's lawyers. That said, I'm not really too
worried about the matter since they're not likely to do much more than
say "stop doing that please"...
It's a bit moot since the only thing that's _really_ stopping me is that
I don't have a long enough 1/8" patch cord, and so far I've been too
lazy to move the II closer to the Mac.
John Syer
I had checked the FAQ for information on the cassette interface and not
found any mention (perhaps I didn't look hard enough). The idea of
connecting via the cassette interface occured to me as a conceptual
exercise,
a "Can this be done?" type of thing. It's nice to know that I'm not the
only
one to have thought of doing this.
The logical extension of this is - instead of saving images from the apple
then
reloading, generating code off machine and loading into the apple.
Kind regards,
John Syer (jsy...@SPAMlabyrinth.net.au)
[remove the NO SPAM from my email address]
"Simon Williams" <em...@luddite.ca> wrote in message
news:1fw758r.6gwq4x1x13xhmN%em...@luddite.ca...
Bill Garber
Sorry for the top-posting but this is brief.
You have made my point very well. There ain't no money in it,
so therefore, why should Apple care if we keep the Apple II
alive with a few simple products, mods, varations in what is
already a dying computer to make our hobby a bit more fun.
If the income vs. entertainment question is the problem, then
why would Apple Corp. lawyers bother. There is no money
to be made here, by them OR us. Point taken and case closed.
Thank you,
Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises
http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
> You apparently don't understand lawyers or business.
>
> Lawyers are paid to care. They do care, because that's how they make
> money. But they aren't going to send out a Cease and Desist letter
> unless they notice, and they're not being paid to sniff around Usenet
> groups looking for people to pounce on. However, if something is
> brought to their attention, you can believe that a C&D will be sent.
>
> This also has *nothing* to do with whether the vendor cares enough to
> continue making the product. That decision is based on how much profit
> it generates. Sure, they could sell a few thousand new Apple II
> computers every year if they brought it back. But for the same
> resources that would require, they can build new products instead, that
> will sell hundreds of thousands of units and thus bring in a profit
> rather than a loss. It's a simple matter of ROI (Return On Investment).
> The fact that you *could* sell something doesn't mean that you would
> make any money on it, or that you wouldn't make more money doing
> something else instead.
>
> The real problem is that copyright law as it currently exists in the
> US fails in its mission "To promote the Progress of Science and useful
> Arts", in that the copyright term is so long that most works will no
> longer exist by the time they are elgible to enter the public domain.
> And thanks to the brain-damaged Supreme Court decision in the Eldred
> case, Congress can continue to extend the term of copyright indefinitely
> (and even retroactively).
Bill Garber
> I don't know about Apple II stuff, but I've seen a few classic Mac sites
> that have been dinged by Apple's lawyers. That said, I'm not really too
> worried about the matter since they're not likely to do much more than
> say "stop doing that please"...
>
> It's a bit moot since the only thing that's _really_ stopping me is that
> I don't have a long enough 1/8" patch cord, and so far I've been too
> lazy to move the II closer to the Mac.
Another good point brought out by Simon is, people are generally
not interested in improving something where there is no gain to
be made. Also, that where vintage technology is concerned, we can
expect nothing more than a "slap on the wrist".
Thanks Simon,
Marsha
news:lgudnfczyM7...@comcast.com:
> There ain't no money in it,
> so therefore, why should Apple care if we keep the Apple II
> alive with a few simple products, mods, varations in what is
> already a dying computer to make our hobby a bit more fun.
>
Products, variations and mods are one thing;
but posting Apple's software without authorization is another...
True all one would probably get is a C&D letter, but it can still be a
souce of concern.
I've figured out how, with a bridge, to boot an Apple II from a Linux box
w/netatalk, but I haven't figured out a simple set of directions to get the
needed files from Apple's posted .HQX file into Linux. I could just post a
gzipped Linux file, but am just paranoid enough not to. The same with the
allegeldy dis/reassembled Appleshare CDEV, the DCMA could be used against
people.
Marsha
news:qhisrhm...@ruckus.brouhaha.com:
> And thanks to the brain-damaged Supreme Court decision in the Eldred
> case, Congress can continue to extend the term of copyright indefinitely
> (and even retroactively).
One of the stupid things this means, the copyright on the contents of a
patent, would last longer than the paptent itself.
Marsha
Sheldon Simms
> "Bill Garber" <will...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:lgudnfczyM7...@comcast.com:
>
>> There ain't no money in it,
>> so therefore, why should Apple care if we keep the Apple II
>> alive with a few simple products, mods, varations in what is
>> already a dying computer to make our hobby a bit more fun.
>>
>
> Products, variations and mods are one thing;
> but posting Apple's software without authorization is another...
> True all one would probably get is a C&D letter, but it can still be a
> souce of concern.
This kind of discussion has been going on in this group
for at least 10 years. There is a lot of ancient commercial
software freely available out there on the internet and I
have never heard of anyone taking any action except for self-
appointed guardians of copyright morality.
Anyone who needs Apple II software should first take a look
at Asimov, if you haven't already.
ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II
-Sheldon
Michael J. Mahon
>Thanks for the responses.
Thanks for an interesting question. ;-)
> I had checked the FAQ for information on the cassette interface and not
>found any mention (perhaps I didn't look hard enough). The idea of
>connecting via the cassette interface occured to me as a conceptual
>exercise,
>a "Can this be done?" type of thing. It's nice to know that I'm not the only
>one to have thought of doing this.
Yes, it can be done.
The reason that more people haven't bothered is that it is: 1) slow,
2) tricky to get the levels right, 3) likely to generate .wav files that
are more than ten times larger than the data that they represent,
and 4) slow--did I mention that? ;-)
>The logical extension of this is - instead of saving images from the apple
then
>reloading, generating code off machine and loading into the apple.
It can certainly be done, but see above.
There are much better ways of moving data, in _almost_ every case,
than using the cassette port. A bootstrap without a serial card is
one. But as soon as the bootstrap is completed, the user is likely
to want to move a lot more data, and the minimal investment in a
serial card ($5 on eBay, + $5 postage) is well justified--unless your
time isn't worth anything. ;-)
-michael
Check out amazing quality 8-bit Apple sound on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Dosius
That would be leet as a test case, that could be used to implement
cassette support in emulators. :)
-uso.
Matthew Russotto
John Syer <js...@labyrinth.net.au> wrote:
>Hi all,
> I have just resurected my Base48 (Apple IIe clone) and found that my
>entire collection of 5.25" floppies have passed on.
More likely your drive has. Floppies do fail with age, but an entire
collection?
Programming the thing via the sound-in port is certainly possible,
though.
--
Matthew T. Russotto mrus...@speakeasy.net
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of
a modicum of security is a very expensive vice.
Bill Garber
Hey, let me send you a drive. I have Disk II and Apple 5.25
drives. Take your pick. $10 shipped to USA. ;-)
Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises
http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Matthew Russotto <russ...@grace.speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:KoSdndS0d_I...@speakeasy.net...
Simon Williams
<snip>
> That would be leet as a test case, that could be used to implement
> cassette support in emulators. :)
As a matter of fact I just "discovered" Virtual ][ for Mac OSX that
darned well has cassette port emulation built-in. Actually it's a very
nice little emulator (][ and ][+ only).
The cassette port reads and writes aiff files which are rather large
compared to disk images, but it does actually work.
Don't recall the URL offhand, but I'm sure google can help with that.
-Simon
Dosius
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gp/VirtualII/
Looks nice! Only thing is I don't think I will be able to glean
anything from it as it is shareware *sigh*
-uso.
Bill Garber
> > Don't recall the URL offhand, but I'm sure google can help with that.
> > -Simon
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~gp/VirtualII/
>
> Looks nice! Only thing is I don't think I will be able to glean
> anything from it as it is shareware *sigh*
Go ahead and glean all you like, I donated to it and I
don't even have a Mac running OS X. ;-)
Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises
http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
---
Dosius
> > > Don't recall the URL offhand, but I'm sure google can help with that.
> > > -Simon
> >
> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~gp/VirtualII/
> >
> > Looks nice! Only thing is I don't think I will be able to glean
> > anything from it as it is shareware *sigh*
>
> Go ahead and glean all you like, I donated to it and I
> don't even have a Mac running OS X. ;-)
>
I mean that I can only use the info from an emulator if it's open source.
-uso.
Greg Buchner
st...@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius) wrote:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~gp/VirtualII/
>
> Looks nice! Only thing is I don't think I will be able to glean
> anything from it as it is shareware *sigh*
Here's an OS X Apple IIe emulator...
<http://apple2.intergalactic.de/>
Hasn't been updated in a while though...works good enough for the little
bit I've played with it.
Greg B.
--
There's just one 2 in my e-mail address, so delete one to e-mail me.
Bill Garber
> > Go ahead and glean all you like, I donated to it and I
> > don't even have a Mac running OS X. ;-)
> >
>
> I mean that I can only use the info from an emulator if it's open source.
Aw, what kind of pirate are you? ;-)
Dosius
> > > Go ahead and glean all you like, I donated to it and I
> > > don't even have a Mac running OS X. ;-)
> > >
> >
> > I mean that I can only use the info from an emulator if it's open source.
>
> Aw, what kind of pirate are you? ;-)
>
> Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises
> http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
>
Hey, I don't want to get sued over EMU][ :)
Besides, the only disassemblers I have are for 6502 (Disasm65, mine)
and 8086 (ndisasm and objdump).
-uso.
Michael Pender
argument) to load and save programs from cassette.
The DOS 3.3 and ProDOS operating systems both 'replace' the LOAD and SAVE
commands to access the disk device. You'll need to chose one or the other;
you can have either cassette access or disk access, but not both.
Sorry,
Michael Pender
John Syer <js...@labyrinth.net.au> wrote in message
news:bbst2p$1ll0$1...@arachne.labyrinth.net.au...
Matthew Russotto
Michael Pender <mpe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The cassette interface uses the 'LOAD' and 'SAVE' commands (without an
>argument) to load and save programs from cassette.
>
>The DOS 3.3 and ProDOS operating systems both 'replace' the LOAD and SAVE
>commands to access the disk device. You'll need to chose one or the other;
>you can have either cassette access or disk access, but not both.
Not true. Under DOS 3.3 "LOAD" and "SAVE" with no file name still access
the tape.
Dosius
> The cassette interface uses the 'LOAD' and 'SAVE' commands (without an
> argument) to load and save programs from cassette.
>
> The DOS 3.3 and ProDOS operating systems both 'replace' the LOAD and SAVE
> commands to access the disk device. You'll need to chose one or the other;
> you can have either cassette access or disk access, but not both.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Michael Pender
>
Not quite!
Try ":LOAD" or ":SAVE".
-uso.
Michael Pender
> In article <QetMa.9236$JY1....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> Michael Pender <mpe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >The cassette interface uses the 'LOAD' and 'SAVE' commands (without an
> >argument) to load and save programs from cassette.
> >
> >The DOS 3.3 and ProDOS operating systems both 'replace' the LOAD and SAVE
> >commands to access the disk device. You'll need to chose one or the
other;
> >you can have either cassette access or disk access, but not both.
>
> Not true. Under DOS 3.3 "LOAD" and "SAVE" with no file name still access
> the tape.
Perhaps they 'should' work; but they didn't back in the day. Although I did
notice a later post that suggests using ':load' or ':save' -- that might
work.
DOS 3.3 and ProDOS both intercept the entire command line when the word
'LOAD' or 'SAVE' is typed in immediate mode.
Sorry, but I'm pretty sure what I stated originally is correct--I remember
trying it.
- Mike
Charlie
Just to add a little more confusion to this thread, there are also monitor
commands for accessing a tape. For saving a range of memory "{start}.{end}W"
and for loading "{start}.{end}R". There was also a way to make the program on
the tape "auto run" when it was loaded but I'll be darned if I remember what it
was.
Charlie
ground.ecn AppleII Librarian
>argument) to load and save programs from cassette.
>
>The DOS 3.3 and ProDOS operating systems both 'replace' the LOAD and SAVE
>commands to access the disk device. You'll need to chose one or the other;
>you can have either cassette access or disk access, but not both.
>
I disagree. I think both work. print chr$(4);"load xxx" invokes the disk
access. load (without the print chr$(4)) invokes the monitor cassette
access. If I remember correctly (and it gets harder everyday, but I meet
lots of new people :-)) one can do both disk and cassette load/save in one
pgm (basic or assem). load/save doesn't get replaced, the calling
sequence determines which is used.
$0.02
--Steve
--
--Steve (appl...@ground.ecn.uiowa.edu)
John
> news:bbst2p$1ll0$1...@arachne.labyrinth.net.au...
> > Hi all,
> > I have just resurected my Base48 (Apple IIe clone) and found that my
> > entire collection of 5.25" floppies have passed on. I remember in the
> past
> > one of my apple user friends booted his machine via the cassette in (and
a
> > tape player). Has anyone thought of connecting the audio output of a
Mac
> or
> > PC to the cassette input of the Apple II and sending instructions that
> way?
> >
> > I do not have a serial card for the Apple so I cannot get an
operating
> > system to the machine using ADT.
> >
> > If this has not been done, I would be interested in exploring the
> > possibilities although I would need an image of dos3.3 or prodos, and
> > information about the cassette interface.
Seems like I just read a post about this, so I apoligize if this has been
answered.
There is another way ... there is something like ADT which uses (forget
which), the joystick port or cassette (think it's the joysteck). Search this
newsground via google if you can't find it. A fellow just posted something
about it.
I think it starts with A2222?????, and is found "near" ADT on either Ground
or Asimov. I saw it long ago before I decided to buy a serial card. You have
to make a cable but what the hay.
Bill Garber
> Seems like I just read a post about this, so I apoligize if this has been
> answered.
>
> There is another way ... there is something like ADT which uses (forget
> which), the joystick port or cassette (think it's the joysteck). Search
this
> newsground via google if you can't find it. A fellow just posted something
> about it.
>
> I think it starts with A2222?????, and is found "near" ADT on either
Ground
> or Asimov. I saw it long ago before I decided to buy a serial card. You
have
> to make a cable but what the hay.
It's http://garberstreet.netfirms.com/AppleCD/ap2222pc.zip
and is now on my web site's download page. Click link above.
Good Luck!
Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprises };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - will...@comcast.net
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Michael Pender
message news:bdusvl$1pi$1...@server05.icaen.uiowa.edu...
It sounds like the trick in 'immediate' mode is to avoid the DOS 3.3
intercept routine by making it into an AppleSoft command, i.e.:
] LOAD Doesn't work
versus
] :LOAD Works
In 'run' mode:
100 print chr$(4)"LOAD" Doesn't work
versus
100 LOAD Works
Nifty.
- Mike