Adobe versus Mozilla SVG
Paul Prescod
likely to work in Mozilla in the future? Obviously one issue is the
Adobe extensions.
Another issue might be grey areas of the specification where Adobe
chose one implementation and someone else might choose another one.
Often I've found that the boundaries between specifications (e.g.
XLink and SVG) are grey areas also. But I don't know enough about SVG
to spot these danger areas yet. Perhaps Mozilla will copy Adobe when
there are grey areas (as IE copied Netscape in the early days). Or
perhaps there are just very few grey areas to worry about. Or maybe
there are lots of places where Adobe is known to deviate from the
specification and perhaps Mozilla will consciously not follow them
down those paths.
I would appreciate any opinions.
tobi
> If I build an application today that works in the Adobe plugin, is it
> likely to work in Mozilla in the future?
Mainly, yes (if you mean a Mozilla in the future with full support for
SVG). You can also test it in Squiggle, KSVG, etc. I think there might
be more issues if you use script.
> Obviously one issue is the
> Adobe extensions.
Yes; don't use them, if your app is to work in more than one viewer.
> Another issue might be grey areas of the specification where Adobe
> chose one implementation and someone else might choose another one.
> Often I've found that the boundaries between specifications (e.g.
> XLink and SVG) are grey areas also. But I don't know enough about SVG
> to spot these danger areas yet. Perhaps Mozilla will copy Adobe when
> there are grey areas (as IE copied Netscape in the early days). Or
> perhaps there are just very few grey areas to worry about.
The probably are some grey areas, but since there's a test suite, and
every single feature has to be implemented correctly in some
viewer/player before the spec goes rec, there aren't so many. If you
spot any, please post them at www...@w3.org
> Or maybe
> there are lots of places where Adobe is known to deviate from the
> specification
not too many
> and perhaps Mozilla will consciously not follow them
> down those paths.
The ASV follows the spec quite closely. Mozilla does and will do the
same AFAICS.
I think the main issue is that without many more developers and $s,
Mozilla will not be a conformimg dynamic SVG viewer before 2010 rr even
later.
Tobi
Robert McKinnon
tobi wrote:
> Paul Prescod wrote:
>
> > If I build an application today that works in the Adobe plugin, is
> > it likely to work in Mozilla in the future?
>
> Mainly, yes (if you mean a Mozilla in the future with full support for
> SVG). You can also test it in Squiggle, KSVG, etc. I think there might
> be more issues if you use script.
Paul, in case you don't know, Squiggle is an SVG browser implemented on
top of Apache's Batik SVG Toolkit. It's available at:
http://xml.apache.org/batik
I found, when moving from the Adobe SVG Viewer to Squiggle, that
Squiggle complained about some errors in my generated SVG that the ASV
was happy to ignore. So I recommend that you test your SVG on Squiggle
as well as ASV.
Paul, do you have some cool SVG REST based service up your sleeve? :)
I myself have implemented an open source REST based SVG genealogy
visualization tool, it's a sourceforge project at:
http://atavi.sourceforge.net
There is a slow live demo running that is linked to from that site,
though I haven't done a release yet.
tobi wrote:
> I think the main issue is that without many more developers and $s,
> Mozilla will not be a conformimg dynamic SVG viewer before 2010 rr
> even later.
Tobi, your opinions on this matter cause me to feel concerned. The
adoption of the SVG format on the web is going to be seriously hindered
if Mozilla doesn't have a native conforming dynamic SVG viewer. Forgive
me for my ignorance, I have a question, if Mozilla is open source why
are there $s involved? Is Netscape funding some Mozilla development
using their own developers?
Is there anything I can do to help, besides emails to the lists you
mention on your site? It is a shame Mozilla isn't in Java, then I might
be able to offer a hand with the code.
I have been trying to raise the profile of SVG where possible. I gave a
presentation on 'Visualizing Data using SVG & XSLT' to the June meeting
of the New York XML Special Interest Group, which was well received. I
also was the one who nominated SVG (and REST) in the XML-Journal 2002
Reader's Choice Awards. ;)
Regards,
Robert
tobi
>> I think the main issue is that without many more developers and $s,
>> Mozilla will not be a conformimg dynamic SVG viewer before 2010 rr
>> even later.
>
> Tobi, your opinions on this matter cause me to feel concerned. The
> adoption of the SVG format on the web is going to be seriously hindered
> if Mozilla doesn't have a native conforming dynamic SVG viewer.
I agree on the importance of a timely, full, conforming, dynamic, and
native SVG implementation in Mozilla.
> Forgive
> me for my ignorance, I have a question, if Mozilla is open source why
> are there $s involved?
Why not? Some OSS/FS developers in some projects are paid, some are not.
There is no contradiction; OS/FSS is about open source, copyleft etc.
The development, and even the software, can be commercial. (where did
you get the ides that OSS/FS dev != $ ?)
> Is Netscape funding some Mozilla development
> using their own developers?
I don't know.
I meant that for a full implementation release in the near future, there
either need to be many more developers, paid or not, best developers
*and* $s.
BTW, the the SVG In Mozilla work of the main developer, Alex, is AFAIK
sponsored by his employer.
Not all OSS/FS development is done without $s; see all he ibm people @
Apache SF etc.
> Is there anything I can do to help,
Since you say you can't C++, not directly. But ask Alex how you can help.
Tobi
Paul Prescod
> Paul Prescod wrote:
>
> > If I build an application today that works in the Adobe plugin, is it
> > likely to work in Mozilla in the future?
>
>
> Mainly, yes (if you mean a Mozilla in the future with full support for
> SVG). You can also test it in Squiggle, KSVG, etc. I think there might
> be more issues if you use script.
Sorry I wasn't more clear. Yes, I am thinking specifically about full
applications: perhaps SVG-based GUIs using heavy scripting. That's
what makes me nervous. It is a good start that Adobe and Mozilla use
the same Javascript engine. And much of the interaction between
Javascript and SVG is defined by the SVG specification (though I
wonder if the test cases handle that?).
Paul Prescod
Paul Prescod
> Hi Tobi and Paul,
>
> ...
>
> I found, when moving from the Adobe SVG Viewer to Squiggle, that
> Squiggle complained about some errors in my generated SVG that the ASV
> was happy to ignore. So I recommend that you test your SVG on Squiggle
> as well as ASV.
Thanks. I'll do that when I can, but I anticipate using Javascript
quite a bit and I presume those parts aren't portable to Squiggle.
> Paul, do you have some cool SVG REST based service up your sleeve? :)
Not anytime soon. ;) I'm just experimenting. But of course SVG and
REST go together like peas in a pod. For example, SVG uses GET URLs
all over the place in very innovative ways.
> I myself have implemented an open source REST based SVG genealogy
> visualization tool, it's a sourceforge project at:
> http://atavi.sourceforge.net
> There is a slow live demo running that is linked to from that site,
> though I haven't done a release yet.
This is REALLY COOL. You should talk to genealogy services to help
them build some kind of online service. It could be a way of getting
recurring membership fees out of their customers (which is always nice
for a software company) and their members could build a huge web of
related geneologies. I don't know anything about the domain so I don't
know if this is already being done but it is an ideal use of Web and
SVG features!
>...
> Tobi, your opinions on this matter cause me to feel concerned. The
> adoption of the SVG format on the web is going to be seriously hindered
> if Mozilla doesn't have a native conforming dynamic SVG viewer.
I'm not sure if I agree. Adobe does a good job and I've heard rumours
of another big-name company releasing a plugin viewer.
> ... Forgive
> me for my ignorance, I have a question, if Mozilla is open source why
> are there $s involved? Is Netscape funding some Mozilla development
> using their own developers?
Yes, Netscape/AOL/Time-Warner is still doing a huge chunk of the
Mozilla work. Probably the large majority. But that doesn't mean that
the project could never be completed purely on a volunteer basis. I
think the point is you need either more volunteers or more cash (to
hire people). You could do it all one way or all the other way or a
mix, but you need progress on one of those two fronts.
> Is there anything I can do to help, besides emails to the lists you
> mention on your site? It is a shame Mozilla isn't in Java, then I might
> be able to offer a hand with the code.
The more people vote for the SVG "bug" in Bugzilla, the more Netscape
will consider pitching in. And of course you could help with testing
and evangelism. ;)
> I have been trying to raise the profile of SVG where possible. I gave a
> presentation on 'Visualizing Data using SVG & XSLT' to the June meeting
> of the New York XML Special Interest Group, which was well received. I
> also was the one who nominated SVG (and REST) in the XML-Journal 2002
> Reader's Choice Awards. ;)
Cool! Long live the revolution. ;)
Paul Prescod
tobi
> Not anytime soon. ;) I'm just experimenting. But of course SVG and
> REST go together like peas in a pod. For example, SVG uses GET URLs
> all over the place in very innovative ways.
Can you give URLs to examples? Some of the scripting features used for
that is in no standard IIRC, so watch out, since you are concerned about
your SVG working in all players (which is great!).
> I'm not sure if I agree. Adobe does a good job
It's a great player, high quality. But it's not yet a full
implementation, there hasn't been an update in a long time, and it
doesn't work properly in Mozilla1/Netscape 7; that also means it's not
really usable on Linux. They might work on improving all that.
Tobi
Jim Ley
>Robert McKinnon <robmc...@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in message news:<3DB2A191...@users.sourceforge.net>...
>> Hi Tobi and Paul,
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I found, when moving from the Adobe SVG Viewer to Squiggle, that
>> Squiggle complained about some errors in my generated SVG that the ASV
>> was happy to ignore. So I recommend that you test your SVG on Squiggle
>> as well as ASV.
>
>Thanks. I'll do that when I can, but I anticipate using Javascript
>quite a bit and I presume those parts aren't portable to Squiggle.
Squiggle has very good javascript support, SMIL animations are the
main missing feature. Porting should be no problem just different
bugs to address.
>> I myself have implemented an open source REST based SVG genealogy
>> visualization tool, it's a sourceforge project at:
>> http://atavi.sourceforge.net
>> There is a slow live demo running that is linked to from that site,
>> though I haven't done a release yet.
>
>This is REALLY COOL. You should talk to genealogy services to help
>them build some kind of online service. It could be a way of getting
>recurring membership fees out of their customers (which is always nice
>for a software company) and their members could build a huge web of
>related geneologies.
There's a couple of other interesting geneology SVG cross overs, the
first one that springs to mind is Eric Vitello's
http://www.vitiello.org/family.asp .
I've also got an early demo of
http://jibbering.com/codepiction/foaf-knows.svg which uses foaf knows
information and co-depiction data (see http://rdfweb.org/ in quite
interesting ways. (Thanks to Dean Jackson for the interface!)
Jim.
Jim Ley
>tobi <tobia...@pinkjuice.com> wrote in message news:<3DAD1FC4...@pinkjuice.com>...
>> Paul Prescod wrote:
>>
>> > If I build an application today that works in the Adobe plugin, is it
>> > likely to work in Mozilla in the future?
>>
>> Mainly, yes (if you mean a Mozilla in the future with full support for
>> SVG). You can also test it in Squiggle, KSVG, etc. I think there might
>> be more issues if you use script.
>
>Sorry I wasn't more clear. Yes, I am thinking specifically about full
>applications: perhaps SVG-based GUIs using heavy scripting.
SVG isn't ready for full GUI's, it has no "forms", current full
applications in SVG generally use a number of ASV extensions, you'd
have to assume that Mozilla decides to follow these extensions (getURL
for example exists in KSVG/Squiggle/Adobe - but not mozilla. )
>That's
>what makes me nervous. It is a good start that Adobe and Mozilla use
>the same Javascript engine. And much of the interaction between
>Javascript and SVG is defined by the SVG specification (though I
>wonder if the test cases handle that?).
The core javascript engine is pretty irrelevant, and I actually have
more javascript bugs between the Linux Adobe SVG Viewer, than I do
between, IE's javascript and ASV's javascript support (ASV in IE uses
the browser engine - and it's faster than the internal one.)
Jim.
Ben M
news:3db3c66c...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On 20 Oct 2002 14:42:54 -0700, pa...@prescod.net (Paul Prescod) wrote:
>
> >tobi <tobia...@pinkjuice.com> wrote in message
news:<3DAD1FC4...@pinkjuice.com>...
> >> Paul Prescod wrote:
> >>
> >> > If I build an application today that works in the Adobe plugin, is it
> >> > likely to work in Mozilla in the future?
> >>
> >> Mainly, yes (if you mean a Mozilla in the future with full support for
> >> SVG). You can also test it in Squiggle, KSVG, etc. I think there might
> >> be more issues if you use script.
> >
> >Sorry I wasn't more clear. Yes, I am thinking specifically about full
> >applications: perhaps SVG-based GUIs using heavy scripting.
>
> SVG isn't ready for full GUI's, it has no "forms", current full
> applications in SVG generally use a number of ASV extensions, you'd
> have to assume that Mozilla decides to follow these extensions (getURL
> for example exists in KSVG/Squiggle/Adobe - but not mozilla. )
Just a quick question, could SVG conceptually be used with XForms (or XHTML
Forms via the XHTML namespace)?
Is Mozilla progressing in this direction or in the same direction as the
other viewers?
regards,
BenM
http://www.benmeadowcroft.com
Jim Ley
wrote:
>Just a quick question, could SVG conceptually be used with XForms (or XHTML
>Forms via the XHTML namespace)?
Yep!
>Is Mozilla progressing in this direction or in the same direction as the
>other viewers?
I don't think any viewers are progressive in this direction yet, at
least not in public, we should probably wait at least until the
Working Group publish their thoughts on the subject, which they say
they're working on.
Jim.
tobi
> I don't think any viewers are progressive in this direction yet,
X-Smiles did many months ago; experimentally, but demos work AFAIK.
Tobi