mood & otherworld journeys
Searles O'Dubhain
Involuntary Otherworldly journeys are not affected by your mood but the
impact of the journey on you and your interactions with the Otherworld will
certainly be affected by your mood. What affect would mood have on mundane
journeys for you? Extrapolate that into a very different and more volatile
world such as the many parts of the Otherworld are known to be.
I think it is dangerous for anyone to go into an altered state of
consciousness if they do not have a firm anchor on who they are in waking
(normal) consciousness. The danger of becoming confused, fixated or
outright hypnotized in such a shift in consciousness varies from person to
person and psyche to psyche. How do you handle strange visions? What would
you do if you encountered your worst fear or enemy? Visualize yourself in a
variety of unusual or outlandish circumstances. What effect would they have
on you? The long and short of these answers is to know yourself and anyone
who advises you specifically should be a professional in terms of dealing
with psychology and personalities, as well as knowing you almost as well as
you know yourself. I think the results would be greatly affected by any
drugs you were taking. Again, reactions vary from individual to individual
but the drugs would tend to make good trips better and bad trips worse IMO.
I know these things about myself and I do not lightly undertake to journey
within the Otherworld unless my need outweighs both the effort and the
possible side effects that such a journey could have on me and my life.
Almost every journey I've made has had lingering psychology side effects, as
well as psychic effects on me. On some of my journeys I have encountered
beings who became bound to me in this life causing all manner of unusual
occurrences around the house (such as poltergeist types of phenomena) or
runs of bad luck. Dreams afterwards were also affected and more prone to
intrusions. Energy drains happened. People around me were also affected by
things like anxiety and strange visions.
In the literature and the traditions, people rarely undertake a deep journey
into the Otherworld as the dangers of being stuck or trapped there were
greatly feared. They also considered that the Otherworldly beings had more
power over them while in these strange lands. Keeping one's wits and not
accepting food or gifts while there were considered to be wise actions as
well. There's much more to be learned by reading the Ectraí (wondrous
adventures) and Imramma (voyages) taken by heroes and others in the Irish
and Welsh tales as well as the Aisling (dreams) type of tales.
Searles
"Seeker" <no...@at.all> wrote in message
news:zXni6.1269$Jp2....@news6.giganews.com...
> i have a couple of serious questions and i hope someone can give me some
serious
> answers.
>
> what effect does mood have on otherworld journeys?
>
> is it dangerous for a person on antidepressants or other prescription
> psychiatric drugs to attempt journeys to the otherworld?
>
> thanks in advance.
HeyokaBear
<no...@at.all> wrote:
> i have a couple of serious questions and i hope someone can give me some serious
> answers.
>
> what effect does mood have on otherworld journeys?
Pretty much the same as it has on day to day life: you get what you
give. A balanced and centered approach to both this and otherworld is
the beginning of mature experience, learning, and the ability to
actually contribute something (rather than just going along running into
mirrors/self-created and self-oriented lessons.
>
> is it dangerous for a person on antidepressants or other prescription
> psychiatric drugs to attempt journeys to the otherworld?
I've sampled only a couple such drugs (and anti-seizure ones) and found
they cut the otherworld off from my perception. I don't know if I would
say they cut it off totally, but thoroughly enough...
peace
bear
>
> thanks in advance
--
==================================================================
Democracy is three wolves and one sheep deciding what's for dinner
to reply remove one "x" from poboxx
==================================================================
macademiagrov
you're depressed or down prior, it is difficult to access anything too
useful or true. I suggest very rigourously whitelighting / chakra cleansing
and strengthening exercises prior, and be very diligent in "closing down"
and earthing afterwards. A "protection" statement asking for assistance (eg
from guides / spirit) prior may also be effective. Regards the drugs - I
can't answer you fully! the apple
"Seeker" <no...@at.all> wrote in message
news:zXni6.1269$Jp2....@news6.giganews.com...
serious
> answers.
>
> what effect does mood have on otherworld journeys?
>
> psychiatric drugs to attempt journeys to the otherworld?
>
Osric
Seeker <no...@at.all> wrote in message
news:zXni6.1269$Jp2....@news6.giganews.com...
> i have a couple of serious questions and i hope someone can give me some
serious
> answers.
>
> what effect does mood have on otherworld journeys?
>
> is it dangerous for a person on antidepressants or other prescription
> psychiatric drugs to attempt journeys to the otherworld?
>
> thanks in advance.
I don't think the drugs are the potential danger, but the reason for the
prescription in the first place. If existence in a world that you are
familiar with requires anti-depressants or anti-psychotics, I would suggest
that the sort of psychological turmoil that can result from such a journey
would be best avoided, especially as such a journey can resemble a psychotic
episode. If you asked a psychologist you would probably be told that such a
journey is in fact a self-induced psychotic episode. Searles is right, such
journeys can have long lasting consequences, so that even if you can
compartmentalise the journey itself, it is likely to spill over into real
life afterwards. My advice would be to leave well alone unless you ae very,
very certain that you can deal with the potential exta pressure on your
psyche when you return.
--
OSRIC
THE BORDERS OF MY COUNTRY
RUN AROUND THE SOLES OF MY FEET
Erynn
> i have a couple of serious questions and i hope someone can give me some
> serious
> answers.
>
> what effect does mood have on otherworld journeys?
>
> is it dangerous for a person on antidepressants or other prescription
> psychiatric drugs to attempt journeys to the otherworld?
Mood can certainly have an effect on journeying, but that effect depends
entirely upon the person and upon the circumstances and contents of the
journey itself.
As to the question about being dangerous while on antidepressants or other
prescription psych meds, I can speak from many years of personal experience
as a person who has been living on antidepressants for a long time.
For me, it has been a very healing thing, particularly that part of the
journeywork being done in dreamtime. But my psychiatric issues are
depression, anxiety, panic, a bit of mild paranoia, and disabling
post-traumatic stress disorder. I have not been diagnosed with, for
instance, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorders, extreme paranoia,
seizure-related problems or psychoses.
I do hear the spirits sometimes, and I listen to them and do what they tell
me when it appears to be rational and reasonably safe. I have told my
doctors this, and also that within the context of my religion this is not
only acceptable, but in some cases a deeply sought after talent to be
cultivated. My VA shrinks have no problem with this whatsoever, and most
counselors who use new age methodology and approaches are extremely open to
these things.
Yes, journeying can be dangerous to the unprepared -- and ANYONE can be
unprepared. But people on psychiatric medications are ALSO capable of being
completely prepared and at ease in the Otherworld. It depends largely on the
individual, and their level of general functionality in the world. Someone
who is hospitalized and hallucinating won't be asking those questions.
Someone spending time in voluntary inpatient treatment, and who has
experience and training in various forms of magic, meditation, and occultism
would probably want to concentrate more on the meditational and devotional
aspects of their practice while an inpatient, because the idea is to focus
on mundane world issues of coping and solving immediate problems. Talking to
the spirits and making requests would, in my opinion, be natural, but
journeying under those circumstances is probably not the best idea.
Someone who is outpatient, in regular counseling that is going reasonably
well and taking medication, or taking medication and having regular
(quarterly or so) consults with the prescribing psychiatrist but not in
active need of counseling really shouldn't have any more problems, danger or
issues than any other human being who is doing journeywork. That, of course,
speaks to my experience both as a PTSD inpatient, as someone on
anti-depressants in very bad shape, as someone in active counseling, as
someone taking medications while coping well outside of a counseling
environment -- AND as someone who had many years of training and practice in
many forms of meditation and occult arts, several years of serious work with
a Siberian shaman as my teacher, and who used a devotional/metitational as
her primary focus during my inpatient tenure at the Veteran's Administration
hospital.
The thing is, sometimes the spirit world shoves you into these things to
tell you that you are different and that you NEED to explore this to be
right with the world. In some cases, what heals you from something looking a
lot like a psychosis or some other form of serious "mental" or emotional
"disturbance" is giving in to that call to journey. This is what some people
might refer to as the "shamanic crisis".
I think that part of what needs to be done if you have questions like this
is to turn to spiritual elders in your community who are able to speak to
you IN PERSON and talk things over with you -- where your head is at, why
you want to journey, which spirits are speaking most strongly to you -- that
kind of thing. I would also suggest that if at all possible, you make it
someone outside the NeoPagan community (a sympathetic Native spiritual
leader, if they're open to that, or at least someone trained by a person
like that), or failing that, someone who is a licensed psychologist with an
open mind and a willingness to be open to the spiritual, rather than a
"spiritual counselor" -- they will have much more awareness of issues like
medications and actual mental/emotional disorders than your street-corner
psychic Tarot reader. (I'm not slamming Tarot readers -- I've done that
professionally before.) All I'm saying is that nobody can advise you
thoroughly online. You need to talk to people in person, so that the person
can see who and how you are in order to offer a valid perspective.
Hope this helps.
Erynn
Poet-terrorist for a better society
HeyokaBear
<inis...@seanet.com> wrote:
(snip)
> I would also suggest that if at all possible, you make it
> someone outside the NeoPagan community (a sympathetic Native spiritual
> leader, if they're open to that, or at least someone trained by a person
> like that), or failing that, someone who is a licensed psychologist with an
> open mind and a willingness to be open to the spiritual, rather than a
> "spiritual counselor" -- they will have much more awareness of issues like
> medications and actual mental/emotional disorders than your street-corner
> psychic Tarot reader. (I'm not slamming Tarot readers -- I've done that
> professionally before.) All I'm saying is that nobody can advise you
> thoroughly online. You need to talk to people in person, so that the person
> can see who and how you are in order to offer a valid perspective.
I tend to agree with the face to face preference, but i do wonder about
the 'licensed' need. Perhaps this can lead to another topic, but my
opinion of psychologists and psychology is not as beneficent as yours -
and i find licensing to be a form of control of economic resources, not
an attempt at patient concern.
Reputation is, of course, different from a license - and makes sense. I
wonder how much we pay (and have paid, in many ways) from taking healing
away from the grass roots and putting it into the hands of self
interested beaurocrats.
My experience has been the most healing and wise people in my life would
no more attempt to seek societal permission to ply their talent and
craft as would a shaman seek congressional approval to act shamanically.
I think we mostly agree... just opening up another avenue for
discussion...
peace
bear
Erynn
Bear said
> In article <B6B077D6.E79F%inis...@seanet.com>, Erynn
> <inis...@seanet.com> wrote:
> (snip)
>
>> I would also suggest that if at all possible, you make it
>> someone outside the NeoPagan community (a sympathetic Native spiritual
>> leader, if they're open to that, or at least someone trained by a person
>> like that), or failing that, someone who is a licensed psychologist with an
>> open mind and a willingness to be open to the spiritual, rather than a
>> "spiritual counselor" -- they will have much more awareness of issues like
>> medications and actual mental/emotional disorders than your street-corner
>> psychic Tarot reader. (I'm not slamming Tarot readers -- I've done that
>> professionally before.) All I'm saying is that nobody can advise you
>> thoroughly online. You need to talk to people in person, so that the person
>> can see who and how you are in order to offer a valid perspective.
>
> I tend to agree with the face to face preference, but i do wonder about
> the 'licensed' need. Perhaps this can lead to another topic, but my
> opinion of psychologists and psychology is not as beneficent as yours -
> and i find licensing to be a form of control of economic resources, not
> an attempt at patient concern.
My sole reason for talking about a person with a license is this: they are
usually the ONLY people who actually know anything about working with people
who are on serious medications for mental or emotional disorders or
dysfunctions. Your average counselor on the street is NOT knowledgeable
enough about drugs and their interactions, NOR with how these things might
effect a person who wants to do Otherworld work, to be able to advise
someone in that position.
Particularly when one wants to do Otherworld work that involves
mind-altering substances along the lines of LSD, DMT/ayahuasca, mushrooms of
varying sorts, or other things of that nature, it is VITAL (as in could cost
you your life if you're clueless) that you know how the various active
constituents of these things interact with selective seritonin reuptake
inhibitors, or with each other. If you are on any one of a wide variety of
SSRI's, for instance, any drug that contains and MAO inhibitor may be fatal.
This would include Amanita muscaria, Persian Rue, Ayahuasca brews, Ecstasy
or almost any form of herbal X, and a variety of other things.
People who do intensive work with entheogenic drugs might have experience
with people who are coping with depression, ptsd, or other medically treated
mental/emotional problems, but there are professional programs in other
countries where substances like LSD are used specifically to treat
mental/emotional problems in a very careful and controlled way. There's no
guarantee that your local ayahuascuero, or your local stoner dude, is going
to have a clue about how to deal with people who are not "normal" and are
taking drugs that deliberately change brain chemistry.
If it is possible to find a psychologist or psychiatrist who knows and
respects alternate spiritualities, you have a gem on your hands. If you have
a spiritual leader, elder or counselor who knows psychiatric drugs,
likewise, you have a gem on your hands. The two talents DO NOT come together
very often, and it's much more likely you'll find a professional shrink
using new age methods than a new age guru who knows and understands
psychiatric meds.
Don't imagine that all my experiences with professionals have been good.
I've been totally traumatized by some alleged professionals, largely within
the VA system. But there ARE good people out there, and there are also
things like referral systems, people charging on a sliding-scale fee, and
community-funded mental health providers. There are a lot of options, but
without knowing something about the system(s), there's no way to find the
right kind of help.
Far too many of the people I've met who hang out counselor shingles in the
Pagan community do it not because they know a lot about the complexities of
professional treatment and medications, but because their friends have
always told them that they're good at helping, and maybe they got a
certificate as a hypnotherapist, or they're good Tarot readers, or they took
some workshops on interpersonal communications and group dynamics. It isn't
that they can't be helpful, it's just that people on psychiatric medications
are an entirely different kettle of fish than someone who's not on meds and
is having trouble finding direction in life, or having issues with family of
origin or with Coven dynamics.
> My experience has been the most healing and wise people in my life would
> no more attempt to seek societal permission to ply their talent and
> craft as would a shaman seek congressional approval to act shamanically.
It isn't the same, because the shaman isn't going to prescribe an ongoing
dosage of psychiatric medications that are intended to permanently alter
your brain chemistry. They deal in short-term dosing of shamanic plants and
substances (and if they don't know their client is on psych medications,
they might just kill their client accidentally), and with solutions bound up
in lifestyle changes and Otherworld work. I'm not questioning intent or
wisdom, I'm pointing out that only some people are qualified and understand
psychiatric medication. And that is the heart of the issue here.
While I would be perfectly happy to go to Nadyezhda, my Siberian teacher,
for advice on how to deal with the spirits, I would never ask her for advice
on my antidepressants. While I would go to my VA meds doctor if I were
having side effects from my antidepressants, I wouldn't ask her to journey
for me to help me deal with a series of power dreams, either. But I'd
definitely talk to her about the possible interactions of my antidepressant
with any potential entheogen I wanted to explore as a spiritual tool.
HeyokaBear
<inis...@seanet.com> wrote:
(snip)
>
> My sole reason for talking about a person with a license is this: they are
> usually the ONLY people who actually know anything about working with people
> who are on serious medications for mental or emotional disorders or
> dysfunctions. Your average counselor on the street is NOT knowledgeable
> enough about drugs and their interactions, NOR with how these things might
> effect a person who wants to do Otherworld work, to be able to advise
> someone in that position.
Agreed, especially since they are the ones who initiate such treatments
usually.
>
> Particularly when one wants to do Otherworld work that involves
> mind-altering substances along the lines of LSD, DMT/ayahuasca, mushrooms of
> varying sorts, or other things of that nature, it is VITAL (as in could cost
> you your life if you're clueless) that you know how the various active
> constituents of these things interact with selective seritonin reuptake
> inhibitors, or with each other. If you are on any one of a wide variety of
> SSRI's, for instance, any drug that contains and MAO inhibitor may be fatal.
> This would include Amanita muscaria, Persian Rue, Ayahuasca brews, Ecstasy
> or almost any form of herbal X, and a variety of other things.
Let me go on record as one who feels under most circumstances that drugs
of any kind are shortcuts, and all shortcuts are paid for in the long
run. There can be exceptions, under exceptional circumstances...
>
> People who do intensive work with entheogenic drugs might have experience
> with people who are coping with depression, ptsd, or other medically treated
> mental/emotional problems, but there are professional programs in other
> countries where substances like LSD are used specifically to treat
> mental/emotional problems in a very careful and controlled way. There's no
> guarantee that your local ayahuascuero, or your local stoner dude, is going
> to have a clue about how to deal with people who are not "normal" and are
> taking drugs that deliberately change brain chemistry.
Isn't that a scary thought...deliberately changing brain chemistry.
>
> If it is possible to find a psychologist or psychiatrist who knows and
> respects alternate spiritualities, you have a gem on your hands. If you have
> a spiritual leader, elder or counselor who knows psychiatric drugs,
> likewise, you have a gem on your hands. The two talents DO NOT come together
> very often, and it's much more likely you'll find a professional shrink
> using new age methods than a new age guru who knows and understands
> psychiatric meds.
I'm not sure I find the world views so placid in terms of the venn
diagram you imply - to be effective it seems you must go deeper than
technique or potion or medication. But I could be wrong.
>
> Don't imagine that all my experiences with professionals have been good.
> I've been totally traumatized by some alleged professionals, largely within
> the VA system. But there ARE good people out there, and there are also
> things like referral systems, people charging on a sliding-scale fee, and
> community-funded mental health providers. There are a lot of options, but
> without knowing something about the system(s), there's no way to find the
> right kind of help.
Agreed
>
> Far too many of the people I've met who hang out counselor shingles in the
> Pagan community do it not because they know a lot about the complexities of
> professional treatment and medications, but because their friends have
> always told them that they're good at helping, and maybe they got a
> certificate as a hypnotherapist, or they're good Tarot readers, or they took
> some workshops on interpersonal communications and group dynamics. It isn't
> that they can't be helpful, it's just that people on psychiatric medications
> are an entirely different kettle of fish than someone who's not on meds and
> is having trouble finding direction in life, or having issues with family of
> origin or with Coven dynamics.
Hard to argue with this, tho it does seem the "new age" people you
reference are rather mediocre (by definition?).
>
> > My experience has been the most healing and wise people in my life would
> > no more attempt to seek societal permission to ply their talent and
> > craft as would a shaman seek congressional approval to act shamanically.
>
> It isn't the same, because the shaman isn't going to prescribe an ongoing
> dosage of psychiatric medications that are intended to permanently alter
> your brain chemistry. They deal in short-term dosing of shamanic plants and
> substances (and if they don't know their client is on psych medications,
> they might just kill their client accidentally), and with solutions bound up
> in lifestyle changes and Otherworld work. I'm not questioning intent or
> wisdom, I'm pointing out that only some people are qualified and understand
> psychiatric medication. And that is the heart of the issue here.
Yes, psychiatric medication as a permanent and long term therapy is a
profound act of faith.
>
> While I would be perfectly happy to go to Nadyezhda, my Siberian teacher,
> for advice on how to deal with the spirits, I would never ask her for advice
> on my antidepressants. While I would go to my VA meds doctor if I were
> having side effects from my antidepressants, I wouldn't ask her to journey
> for me to help me deal with a series of power dreams, either. But I'd
> definitely talk to her about the possible interactions of my antidepressant
> with any potential entheogen I wanted to explore as a spiritual tool.
I think its always difficult to mix world views, and caution is indeed
the best advice.
peace
bear
>
> Erynn
> Poet-terrorist for a better society
>
--
Erynn
>
> In article <B6B35265.EA99%inis...@seanet.com>, Erynn
> <inis...@seanet.com> wrote:
>
> (snip)
>> Particularly when one wants to do Otherworld work that involves
>> mind-altering substances along the lines of LSD, DMT/ayahuasca, mushrooms of
>> varying sorts, or other things of that nature, it is VITAL (as in could cost
>> you your life if you're clueless) that you know how the various active
>> constituents of these things interact with selective seritonin reuptake
>> inhibitors, or with each other. If you are on any one of a wide variety of
>> SSRI's, for instance, any drug that contains and MAO inhibitor may be fatal.
>> This would include Amanita muscaria, Persian Rue, Ayahuasca brews, Ecstasy
>> or almost any form of herbal X, and a variety of other things.
>
> Let me go on record as one who feels under most circumstances that drugs
> of any kind are shortcuts, and all shortcuts are paid for in the long
> run. There can be exceptions, under exceptional circumstances...
I will counter with the argument that shamans have for millennia been using
many of these substances as integral parts of their work. Some people (like
the late Terrance McKenna and others) even suggest that we evolved in part
through the agency of psilocybe mushrooms as part of the early human
mystical and spiritual experience. I don't believe that we humans have
evolved to the point where we can point to our ancestors three thousand
years ago and say "well, they considered these things integral to some
aspects of their spirituality, but we've gone so far past that phase that we
don't need that crutch any more." I don't think of it as a crutch. I don't
believe it's the only path, but I do believe that the interactions of
different entheogens (and the different spirits of those plants/fungi/etc)
can bring us to somewhat different places than where we may end up with
meditations. They open different doors, as it were.
I believe also that our western culture (particularly in the USA, but in
other nations as well) has a very anti-drug, anti-pleasure, anti-ecstasy
bias that predisposes people who have grown up under its influence to
believe that any use of a substance that hasn't been dispensed by a medical
doctor is somehow wrong or bad. This is the same reason, in my opinion, that
many of the so-called Celtic Reconstructionist groups reject mysticism,
saying that it's "dangerous." Personally, I believe that the early Druids
and Filidh may in fact have used various kinds of mushrooms as a part of
some of their rituals. Timothy White and I presented some evidence for this
several years ago in Shaman's Drum magazine.
Certainly none of this is a practice that everyone should indulge in, but
for some people it is a useful, perhaps even necessary path.
>> People who do intensive work with entheogenic drugs might have experience
>> with people who are coping with depression, ptsd, or other medically treated
>> mental/emotional problems, but there are professional programs in other
>> countries where substances like LSD are used specifically to treat
>> mental/emotional problems in a very careful and controlled way. There's no
>> guarantee that your local ayahuascuero, or your local stoner dude, is going
>> to have a clue about how to deal with people who are not "normal" and are
>> taking drugs that deliberately change brain chemistry.
>
> Isn't that a scary thought...deliberately changing brain chemistry.
You deliberately change your brain chemistry every time you have a cup of
tea or coffee, every time you eat a piece of chocolate, every time you take
cold medicine or or pain medication, or put pretty much anything else in
your body. Psychiatric medications are a controlled effort to change a
particular type of brain chemistry in an attempt to regulate a potentially
life-threatening imbalance. For some, that intervention works (it does for
me), for others, the side effects are too problematic, or poisonous, or the
particular medication or dose being used simply is not the correct one for
that person's basic body chemistry.
>> If it is possible to find a psychologist or psychiatrist who knows and
>> respects alternate spiritualities, you have a gem on your hands. If you have
>> a spiritual leader, elder or counselor who knows psychiatric drugs,
>> likewise, you have a gem on your hands. The two talents DO NOT come together
>> very often, and it's much more likely you'll find a professional shrink
>> using new age methods than a new age guru who knows and understands
>> psychiatric meds.
>
> I'm not sure I find the world views so placid in terms of the venn
> diagram you imply - to be effective it seems you must go deeper than
> technique or potion or medication. But I could be wrong.
Placid?
I've never ever once said that any technique or potion or medication was the
only answer. Where have I ever implied this? I think you're oversimplifying.
>> Far too many of the people I've met who hang out counselor shingles in the
>> Pagan community do it not because they know a lot about the complexities of
>> professional treatment and medications, but because their friends have
>> always told them that they're good at helping, and maybe they got a
>> certificate as a hypnotherapist, or they're good Tarot readers, or they took
>> some workshops on interpersonal communications and group dynamics. It isn't
>> that they can't be helpful, it's just that people on psychiatric medications
>> are an entirely different kettle of fish than someone who's not on meds and
>> is having trouble finding direction in life, or having issues with family of
>> origin or with Coven dynamics.
>
> Hard to argue with this, tho it does seem the "new age" people you
> reference are rather mediocre (by definition?).
I know a few who are very, very good at what they do. But I think that (was
it Clarke's Law?) 99% of everything is bullshit is probably a pretty good
summation. There will always be some good ones and some bad ones and a lot
of mediocre ones.
>>> My experience has been the most healing and wise people in my life would
>>> no more attempt to seek societal permission to ply their talent and
>>> craft as would a shaman seek congressional approval to act shamanically.
>>
>> It isn't the same, because the shaman isn't going to prescribe an ongoing
>> dosage of psychiatric medications that are intended to permanently alter
>> your brain chemistry. They deal in short-term dosing of shamanic plants and
>> substances (and if they don't know their client is on psych medications,
>> they might just kill their client accidentally), and with solutions bound up
>> in lifestyle changes and Otherworld work. I'm not questioning intent or
>> wisdom, I'm pointing out that only some people are qualified and understand
>> psychiatric medication. And that is the heart of the issue here.
>
> Yes, psychiatric medication as a permanent and long term therapy is a
> profound act of faith.
And after going through a series of drugs that did not work, or whose side
effects were too problematic for me to continue on them, I am finally on a
drug that treats my suicidal depression and helps with the symptoms of my
ptsd. It may be faith, but whatever it is, it works and my life is much
better than it ever has been. But it is not just the medication that has
done this. It is also my years of study and practice and work with teachers
and companions that have helped me to be able to bring about the change, to
make use of the opportunities it presented. Is it faith? Sure. It's not like
having faith is a bad thing.
Reiki works for some people. Medications work for others. Some people might
need elements of both, used together with wisdom. Why shut the door on an
allopathic choice that might save a life? Is it so frightening that it
becomes unacceptable to use one methodology because it isn't alternative
enough?
> I think its always difficult to mix world views, and caution is indeed
> the best advice.
Yes, of course. But when someone asks me questions about the practical
aspects of doing Otherworld work while on psychiatric medications, I can
only speak from my personal experience. I offered answers that worked for
me, with cautions and suggestions based on my own experience. Each person's
mileage is going to vary, and each person will require different approaches
to fit with the type and dose of medication they are on. That people who are
on medications will want to use Otherworld techniques is inevitable. But we
face prejudices within not just mundane society, but within the Pagan
community as well. I was reading one Wiccan discussion list where people
were suggesting that NO ONE who was "mentally ill" should EVER be trained or
offered initiations because they're too "unstable." The truth is, this
training and group work could conceivably provide the discipline and
experience that person needs to heal themselves, to become whole. The
community has no right to judge us by the fact we are on medication. We,
like everyone else, should be judged by our actions and the results of our
work. If someone is dangerous, obviously they should be turned away. If a
person who is helped by medication but becomes unstable and dangerous when
not taking it, they should only be trained if they agree to stay on the
medication that's helping them cope and stay stable. If someone acts like a
normal human being, just like most anybody else in the Pagan community, why
is it a problem?
My work and training in the Pagan community, combined with the use of
antidepressants, have given me my life. They've enabled me to be a
functional, useful, and sometimes even an influential person in my
community. I have served the local Pagan community over a course of many
years as teacher, Priestess, facilitator, project and festival coordinator,
author and speaker. Had I been judged by my "mental illness" or use of
psychiatric medications and rejected on that basis, I would probably be
dead, and no one would have had my services. From where I stand, it's been a
benefit to everyone.
Whether or not other occultists or Pagans approve of the use of these
medications as somehow spiritually incorrect is irrelevant. I don't see the
use of these medications as any different than splinting a broken leg or
using glasses to correct vision. I (and other people like me) have a medical
problem, and there are medications that help us live normal lives. It should
not exclude us from our spiritual lives and work, nor should we allow the
misunderstandings of others to guide us into possibly dangerous or fatal
choices.
HeyokaBear
Erynn and Bear are talking:
> > Let me go on record as one who feels under most circumstances that drugs
> > of any kind are shortcuts, and all shortcuts are paid for in the long
> > run. There can be exceptions, under exceptional circumstances...
>
> I will counter with the argument that shamans have for millennia been using
> many of these substances as integral parts of their work.(snip)
>
> I believe also that our western culture (particularly in the USA, but in
> other nations as well) has a very anti-drug, anti-pleasure, anti-ecstasy
> bias that predisposes people who have grown up under its influence to
> believe that any use of a substance that hasn't been dispensed by a medical
> doctor is somehow wrong or bad.(snip)
I think the statements above and below are interrelated and interesting.
Yes, everything we do, think, ingest, feel affects us, often in a
scientifically measureable way. Is it awareness changing chemistry, or
chemistry changing awareness? Both? When ill, are we first ill in the
spirit/soul/mind, or ill in the body (chemistry)? Many writers have
addressed these different approaches.
Noone is questioning individual responsibility and choice. For some,
taking a drug (or ingesting a psychotropic fungi) and then making sense
of the experience, if possible, is a valid choice. For others, changing
awareness becomes the method. Perhaps the end, if successfully
integrated, is similar. As someone who has walked down both paths it has
been my experience that the price of dramatic drug induced vision-states
is high in terms of lost or fragile integration - often without knowing
it - whereas the price of a more mind-centered approach is less likely a
loss of balance, but does present frustrations and can lead to a
conservative view of mystery. Interesting that usually I adocate
Experience here, yet in this case am the conservative!
There's a time and a place to get tossed into a river, when no amount of
technique or discussion will get you wet...
As for cultural inhibitions towards ecstacy - another good thread. Might
I add to it that the disparity generally between healers and "medical
doctors" is another glaring example of cultural illness. I think this
comes from approaching people as assemblages of chemicals rather than a
more balanced, holistic view. Lastly, using "new age" and "shaman" in
the manner you do (very new age) dusts the dialogue with fluff -
although I would agree much that has made its way into the "new age" and
modern shamanism is indeed, fluff.
> You deliberately change your brain chemistry every time you have a cup of
> tea or coffee, every time you eat a piece of chocolate, every time you take
> cold medicine or or pain medication, or put pretty much anything else in
> your body. Psychiatric medications are a controlled effort to change a
> particular type of brain chemistry in an attempt to regulate a potentially
> life-threatening imbalance. For some, that intervention works (it does for
> me), for others, the side effects are too problematic, or poisonous, or the
> particular medication or dose being used simply is not the correct one for
> that person's basic body chemistry.
>
(snip)
>
> And after going through a series of drugs that did not work, or whose side
> effects were too problematic for me to continue on them, I am finally on a
> drug that treats my suicidal depression and helps with the symptoms of my
> ptsd. It may be faith, but whatever it is, it works and my life is much
> better than it ever has been. But it is not just the medication that has
> done this. It is also my years of study and practice and work with teachers
> and companions that have helped me to be able to bring about the change, to
> make use of the opportunities it presented. Is it faith? Sure. It's not like
> having faith is a bad thing.
>
> Reiki works for some people. Medications work for others. Some people might
> need elements of both, used together with wisdom. Why shut the door on an
> allopathic choice that might save a life? Is it so frightening that it
> becomes unacceptable to use one methodology because it isn't alternative
> enough?
By all means, use what works. I'm glad you are doing well; I am not
suggesting we throw away aspirin or any drug - although I have concerns
about anything that "must" be taken all the time, concerns are not the
same as prejudices or antipathy. Again, looking at people as chemical
stew, or DNA strands, or any one way (to me) is like closing one eye. Of
course, we would no more throw drug treatment away as we explore other
ways of perceiving health and the return to health of a person than we
would throw a chainsaw away if we had a dead tree to remove.
>
> > I think its always difficult to mix world views, and caution is indeed
> > the best advice.
>
> Yes, of course. But when someone asks me questions about the practical
> aspects of doing Otherworld work while on psychiatric medications, I can
> only speak from my personal experience. I offered answers that worked for
> me, with cautions and suggestions based on my own experience. Each person's
> mileage is going to vary, and each person will require different approaches
> to fit with the type and dose of medication they are on. That people who are
> on medications will want to use Otherworld techniques is inevitable. But we
> face prejudices within not just mundane society, but within the Pagan
> community as well. I was reading one Wiccan discussion list where people
> were suggesting that NO ONE who was "mentally ill" should EVER be trained or
> offered initiations because they're too "unstable." The truth is, this
> training and group work could conceivably provide the discipline and
> experience that person needs to heal themselves, to become whole. The
> community has no right to judge us by the fact we are on medication. We,
> like everyone else, should be judged by our actions and the results of our
> work. If someone is dangerous, obviously they should be turned away. If a
> person who is helped by medication but becomes unstable and dangerous when
> not taking it, they should only be trained if they agree to stay on the
> medication that's helping them cope and stay stable. If someone acts like a
> normal human being, just like most anybody else in the Pagan community, why
> is it a problem?
I'm not sure where this came from in the context of our discussion -
assuredly I read and value your words and perspective. Whoever may have
called you mentally ill is the person I would be upset with - if anyone.
There are many ways to assess individual in this world - psychiatry and
its language is just one, and young. (Jung...lol). Ahem.
A tangent... if every language, culturally, professionally, and
colloquially is a completely different perspective on the world, and the
world is shaped by our perceptions, then the ability to speak in
different languages becomes a way to add depth to a world that cannot be
pinned down by any one or set of languages...
>
> My work and training in the Pagan community, combined with the use of
> antidepressants, have given me my life. They've enabled me to be a
> functional, useful, and sometimes even an influential person in my
> community. I have served the local Pagan community over a course of many
> years as teacher, Priestess, facilitator, project and festival coordinator,
> author and speaker. Had I been judged by my "mental illness" or use of
> psychiatric medications and rejected on that basis, I would probably be
> dead, and no one would have had my services. From where I stand, it's been a
> benefit to everyone.
>
> Whether or not other occultists or Pagans approve of the use of these
> medications as somehow spiritually incorrect is irrelevant. I don't see the
> use of these medications as any different than splinting a broken leg or
> using glasses to correct vision. I (and other people like me) have a medical
> problem, and there are medications that help us live normal lives. It should
> not exclude us from our spiritual lives and work, nor should we allow the
> misunderstandings of others to guide us into possibly dangerous or fatal
> choices.
How anything could exclude you from your spiritual side is beyond me.
Noone can take that from you (except, perhaps, you). Nor can anyone take
your world view. That it works for you is all that matters.
Glad for the discussioning
peace
bear
>
> Erynn
> Poet-terrorist for a better society
>
>
--
Erynn
> Erynn and Bear are talking:
>
>
> Yes, everything we do, think, ingest, feel affects us, often in a
> scientifically measureable way. Is it awareness changing chemistry, or
> chemistry changing awareness? Both? When ill, are we first ill in the
> spirit/soul/mind, or ill in the body (chemistry)? Many writers have
> addressed these different approaches.
Ah, the old chicken or the egg argument ;)
> Noone is questioning individual responsibility and choice. For some,
> taking a drug (or ingesting a psychotropic fungi) and then making sense
> of the experience, if possible, is a valid choice. For others, changing
> awareness becomes the method. Perhaps the end, if successfully
> integrated, is similar.
I believe that the integrated effects are, in fact, similar. I have had very
profound experiences while using LSD in a ritual context. I believe that
context has an incredible amount to do with how one copes with the changes
in awareness.
It is my belief that people who use entheogens in a totally secular, merely
pleasure-seeking capacity are not as likely to be able to integrate a
spiritual experience as those who use the same substances in a controlled,
ritual and spiritual context. Preparation has a great deal to with that, as
has the level of respect for the substance. Someone using it in ritual is
much more likely to treat the experience with respect and place their
experiences within a spiritual context than someone who is going for a metal
joyride.
> There's a time and a place to get tossed into a river, when no amount of
> technique or discussion will get you wet...
Quite true.
> As for cultural inhibitions towards ecstacy - another good thread. Might
> I add to it that the disparity generally between healers and "medical
> doctors" is another glaring example of cultural illness. I think this
> comes from approaching people as assemblages of chemicals rather than a
> more balanced, holistic view. Lastly, using "new age" and "shaman" in
> the manner you do (very new age) dusts the dialogue with fluff -
> although I would agree much that has made its way into the "new age" and
> modern shamanism is indeed, fluff.
Unfortunately, most of the "new age" I've been exposed to has consisted
almost entirely of fluff. For every genuine, deep and useful insight, there
are a thousand fluff bunnies to whom a real, in depth encounter with a
spirit would be terrifying, for whom the idea of ritual means lighting a
stick of incense and arranging your room to look pretty, for whom the mere
mention of a Pagan history for some of their practices sends them into a
tailspin of white-light Jesus talk.
When I use "shamanism" in that derogatory way, I'm primarily referring to
the buy a book and become a shaman types, who might go to a Harner workshop
and learn to do a mind-numbingly boring drumbeat and imagine that this and
daydreaming are the essence of all true shamanism.
It's been said, and not untruthfully, that the difference between Pagans and
New Agers is a decimal point -- a $30 workshop from a Pagan would cost a New
Ager about $300, even if the content were identical.
Now, I know that there are people who are New Age practitioners who have a
real line into their power, and who genuinely understand their own
spirituality. I know genuine shamans and have the utmost respect for them.
But there are far more claimants out there than the real articles.
> By all means, use what works. I'm glad you are doing well; I am not
> suggesting we throw away aspirin or any drug - although I have concerns
> about anything that "must" be taken all the time, concerns are not the
> same as prejudices or antipathy. Again, looking at people as chemical
> stew, or DNA strands, or any one way (to me) is like closing one eye. Of
> course, we would no more throw drug treatment away as we explore other
> ways of perceiving health and the return to health of a person than we
> would throw a chainsaw away if we had a dead tree to remove.
Well, for some of us, we *could* go off our meds, but the inside of my head
would be a much worse place if I did.
I don't think that anyone should look at people as biochemical stews or DNA
strands. There's a lot more to us than some chemicals and a vat of water.
It was, I'll admit, a knee-jerk and defensive answer based on the discussion
mentioned above. Not aimed at you in particular, but at anyone out there who
might share those opinions, as a voice from inside.
> A tangent... if every language, culturally, professionally, and
> colloquially is a completely different perspective on the world, and the
> world is shaped by our perceptions, then the ability to speak in
> different languages becomes a way to add depth to a world that cannot be
> pinned down by any one or set of languages...
I strongly believe that every language is a world.
>> Whether or not other occultists or Pagans approve of the use of these
>> medications as somehow spiritually incorrect is irrelevant. I don't see the
>> use of these medications as any different than splinting a broken leg or
>> using glasses to correct vision. I (and other people like me) have a medical
>> problem, and there are medications that help us live normal lives. It should
>> not exclude us from our spiritual lives and work, nor should we allow the
>> misunderstandings of others to guide us into possibly dangerous or fatal
>> choices.
>
> How anything could exclude you from your spiritual side is beyond me.
> Noone can take that from you (except, perhaps, you). Nor can anyone take
> your world view. That it works for you is all that matters.
Of course no one can, but it's easy enough to exclude people from learning
environments, Covens, communities, and access to teachers, and these things
certainly do happen. For a new seeker, it can be devastating. Particularly
with people suffering from depression, neuroses, anxiety, or other similiar
disorders, it's very easy to slide into the illusion that being excluded
from something because we're "mentally ill" (or even because someone doesn't
like us) can distract us from our focus on the spiritual. If people in the
community know the techniques and have the information and insight that we
seek, but don't deem us "worthy," where will we learn? It takes a lot of
strength to do things independently under the best of circumstances. For one
who is struggling with depression, the discouragement can become crushing.
I argue for inclusiveness, and for enough strength and independence of
spirit to overcome the obsticals.
> Glad for the discussioning
It's been interesting, hasn't it?
namaste
HeyokaBear
It's not the lighting of the sage that is the prayer
The act of burning the sage
Is the prayer's response.
~
The wind shook free a rain of spiders
Falling at my feet
Frozen, stunned
A momentary snapshot
Capturing my maddening
Released
The weave unwound
And meaning scurried for the safety
Of darker places
Unseen
Or so it appeared
For me, me
Me, I could stand up
And track each spider trail
Maddening
A blur of motion shifting
Your eyes appear
The thoughts laying gentle on the surface
Buoyed true to your longings
And the irony
Of this closeness
Is the distance
It resounds
Do you hear and see the echoes you have left
Here
Maddening
The inevitable movement
Unbound
The blind woman broke off a piece of bark
And dropped it in the water
I had boiling upon the fire
I search her sightless eyes for understanding
I see you there
So far away
Farther
With every word
Scratched
Upon leaves
That speak
With my voice
Maddening
In the wood there are trees
(they are everywhere, really)
That pair together
Portaled
My labyrinthed vision...
Nevermind
(there is a point...
It is just a painted one
My words
Stretch
For you...)
How is it that sprinting
Full force
To madness
Brings you nearer?
On the streetcorner
Almost dawn
The child
Painted
Spits out her $50 fare
Hungry
You see?
Maddening
Ablaze
For?
The portaled trees
Ivy crossed
Glow
I know this
(Shhh)
Everything is perfect
Maddening
"Fine!" her legs cross
Shades on
Cigarette in her left hand
Blowing smoke
"Fine."
"So what of it?"
What of what I wonder?
(am I making any sense?)
Spiders rain, and scurry for darkness
She walks through the portal and blinks
Coming or going?
I see her
The canopy of leaves is strung with webs
Glistening bridges
Traversed by brave
Travelers
Hand over hand
Some leap
From constellated homes
And fly winged
Galaxy to galaxy
Carrying mysteries
Across space
There are predators
And prey
Battleships
And scouts
Entire families
Leaving the known
For no apparent reason
Maddening
She looks at me and smiles
Catlike
Alien
And I feel at home
She has nothing I think I want
I have nothing she needs
We smile
Maddening
The child tosses on the urine soaked mattress
Shaking with need
Nightmares
Memories
These are her blessings
The radiator hisses in sympathy
Catlike
Aware of only threat
We are one in the fields of the lord
Maddening
Grin
In the Fenway
In Boston
There is a stand of birches
Living where men go to meet men
And drop
Their $50 fares
It was there I learned
How hawks hunt
The sun is behind them
They watch fierce
Not on treetops exposed
But in branches hidden
And take
Their food
As it comes
I take a sip of the broth
Scalding my tongue
She cackles
Knitting her blanket
Mine
And you
God!
You
(A heavy sigh)
Please...
Come sit with me
I am lonely here
For you
"So what's the point?"
She ground out her cigarette
"Waiter...check"
Mate?
Maddening
?
(C) 2000 Heyok...@aol.com , all rights reserved
Stacey
A Druid's lot is a lonely one.
Stacey
"HeyokaBear" <drmn...@poboxx.com> wrote in message
news:drmngbear-F47B3...@news.ne.mediaone.net...
Silvan
of comments.
There are two questions here: the use of drugs to induce an altered state of
awareness, and their use to help sustain a normal emotional state.
HeyokaBear wrote:
> Erynn and Bear are talking:
>
> > > Let me go on record as one who feels under most circumstances that drugs
> > > of any kind are shortcuts, and all shortcuts are paid for in the long
> > > run. There can be exceptions, under exceptional circumstances...
> >
> > I will counter with the argument that shamans have for millennia been using
> > many of these substances as integral parts of their work.(snip)
Brittanica.com has interesting groups of articles on mysticism and shamanism and I
believe it is there I read that drug-induced states seem to ressemble the state of
higher awareness described my mystics, but that drug-induced experiences do not
seem to promote long-term change of mental state (e.g. a healthier response to
stress, or dealing with anger) to the extent that non-drug-induced meditation can
achieve.
From other reading I have done, and to some extent from my own experience, I will
speculate about the cause of this. Using drugs to alter one's consciousness
doesn't require the concentration of other forms of meditation. And concentration
seems to be a key to sustained cognitive growth.
> Noone is questioning individual responsibility and choice. For some,
> taking a drug (or ingesting a psychotropic fungi) and then making sense
> of the experience, if possible, is a valid choice. For others, changing
> awareness becomes the method. Perhaps the end, if successfully
> integrated, is similar. As someone who has walked down both paths it has
> been my experience that the price of dramatic drug induced vision-states
> is high in terms of lost or fragile integration - often without knowing
> it - whereas the price of a more mind-centered approach is less likely a
> loss of balance, but does present frustrations and can lead to a
> conservative view of mystery.
My previous conclusion is probably another way of expressing this same thing.
(snip)
> > And after going through a series of drugs that did not work, or whose side
> > effects were too problematic for me to continue on them, I am finally on a
> > drug that treats my suicidal depression and helps with the symptoms of my
> > ptsd. It may be faith, but whatever it is, it works and my life is much
> > better than it ever has been. But it is not just the medication that has
> > done this. It is also my years of study and practice and work with teachers
> > and companions that have helped me to be able to bring about the change, to
> > make use of the opportunities it presented. Is it faith? Sure. It's not like
> > having faith is a bad thing.
I think mental health is a bit like swimming. Most of us learn to do it when we
are children. Some just swim briefly on occasion, others are extremely good at it.
But for most, swimming is a relatively pleasant experience. It's hard for us to
understand how another adult has never learned to swim or to enjoy being in the
water.
But many of us went through formative experiences which somehow interfered with
our learning how to cope with the basic problems of life. Another person who may
have received adequate training from their parents for a particular lifestyle, may
not have the ability to cope with the demands of a different culture, career
environment or sexual orientation. And just as an experienced swimmer can drown
when thrown into the wrong water conditions, or when suffering a neck injury, a
normally well-balanced person can succomb to depression under abnormal stress, or
due to a physical illness of some kind.
I see anti-depressant medication as a bouyancy pill, like a life jacket. It will
not teach you how to swim, and in fact it can give you a false sense of security.
A life jacket doesn't always prevent people from drowning. But in most cases, it
will keep you alive long enough to get out of dangerous water. It might help you
learn how to swim.
Some people who don't learn until late in life may never develop the proficiency
or self-confidence to go into the water without a life jacket.
> By all means, use what works. I'm glad you are doing well; I am not
> suggesting we throw away aspirin or any drug - although I have concerns
> about anything that "must" be taken all the time, concerns are not the
> same as prejudices or antipathy. (snip)
What about insulin? I've always liked this analogy because diabetes and depression
can both be induced by long-term abuse of body chemistry, but once the system is
damaged, correcting one's diet, lifestyle or thought processes won't necessarily
heal the illness. Some diabetics can manage without insulin, others cannot. The
same is true of depression. And various genetic or environmental factors may
predispose certain people to diabetes or depression. I don't think many people
would question that insulin is a beneficial drug, but antidepressants are poorly
understood.
Cheers
Silvan Bear
> peace
> bear
> >
> > Erynn
> > Poet-terrorist for a better society
> >
> >
>
--
vwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvw
Silvan's Quote of the day for February 20, 2001:
"There will be, in each of our hearts, a little oasis of
peace and 'sweet dreams' where the other is."
~Rachel Carson to Dorothy Freeman, 1954, in: Constance
Jones, **The Love of Friends: An Anthology of Gay and
Lesbian Letters to Lovers and Freinds** (1997)
Homepage: Silvan's Glade
http://www.geocities.com/vwaffle/
Van Waffle
Contributing Editor, Living With Nature
Suite101.com, Inc.
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/living_with_nature
Index of themestream articles:
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C. Leigh Nic Fhionghaile
"Silvan" <vwa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3A92BF60...@yahoo.co.uk...
> but antidepressants are poorly
> understood.
And often prescribed unnecessarily, especially to women.
Owl
--
**********************************************
I understand the unicorn's song,
And my own is made of owls and flowers,
I have made my voice of night and time,
My shadow goes before me like a spear.
-- from "Taliesin and the Dark"
***********************************************
HeyokaBear
an Fhilidh <nort...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I know you mean well, however ...
>
> This is an extremely generalized view of mental illness, specifically
> depression. Sure, there are folks out there who may use anti-depressants as a
> crutch, and sure, sometimes these drugs are unnecessarily prescribed.
>
> But there is in fact a real condition called "depression" which is a chemical
> imbalance in the brain. This cannot and should not be chalked up to being the
> fault of some outside influence, such as parental failure as you suggest.
> "Mental health" is not something that is learned, like swimming. Suggesting
> that it might be is like suggesting that cancer victims are the people who never
> learned not to get cancer.
>
> For someone with severe clinical depression, a course of psychiatric medication
> might just be the difference between living and dying - literally.
This goes back to the "chicken or the egg" that Erynn and I were
speaking of... just because psychology now names a certain chemical
condition an "illness" (just as cancer is named an illness) doesn't
necessarily mean it is out of the hands (mind/awareness) of the person
with that measureable condition. Am I arguing that cancer and depression
should be looked at as self-induced, or induced by environment (rather
than by chance or genetics)? Maybe... more likely I am wondering aloud
if it is beneficial to have the mind set that we are victims of chance
and chemistry and genetics - or perhaps should we question the pill that
psychiatry offers us today, which by the way seems very self-interested
and disempowering to me. The truth likely lies in the balance, that some
illnesses are triggered for unknown reasons and must be dealt with one
way or another, and medicine is definately one way to deal with illness.
It seems to me that attempting to find other true ways of understanding
illnesses of all kinds is a useful thing.
It may be a matter of perspective, and likely a matter of multiple
perspectives at once. It seems to me what works is the most important
thing - for instance some people who have problems with alcohol use are
able to control their behavior by understanding themselves as
"alcoholics", with a clinical disease that isn't their fault, while
others succeed by the reverse: facing their dependence on alcohol as a
personal choice - and they tend to resent the suggestion that drinking,
or not, is anything *but* a personal choice.
This could lead to a discussion about "Attitude" - something I think is
not given the primacy it deserves from a health, magical, and plain old
mundane perspective. My feeling is that attitude is cultivated, and as
such is a choice - and one of the basic choices we have that is almost
entirely (if not entirely) within our control. It has a tremendous
effect on our lives and perception and interactions, and as a magical
tool (or spiritual focus) is one of the great levers of reality...
thoughts?
peace
bear
Silvan
Aine Nic an Fhilidh wrote:
> In article <3A92BF60...@yahoo.co.uk>, vwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
(clip)
> > I see anti-depressant medication as a bouyancy pill, like a life jacket. It will
> > not teach you how to swim, and in fact it can give you a false sense of
> > security. A life jacket doesn't always prevent people from drowning. But in most
> > cases, it will keep you alive long enough to get out of dangerous water. It might
> > help you learn how to swim.
> >
> > Some people who don't learn until late in life may never develop the
> > proficiency or self-confidence to go into the water without a life jacket.
>
> I know you mean well, however ...
>
> This is an extremely generalized view of mental illness, specifically
> depression. Sure, there are folks out there who may use anti-depressants as a
> crutch, and sure, sometimes these drugs are unnecessarily prescribed.
Actually, you have totally misunderstood my meaning. I didn't use the analogy of a crutch,
but of a life jacket. There is a world of difference.
> But there is in fact a real condition called "depression" which is a chemical
> imbalance in the brain. This cannot and should not be chalked up to being the
> fault of some outside influence, such as parental failure as you suggest.
> "Mental health" is not something that is learned, like swimming. Suggesting
> that it might be is like suggesting that cancer victims are the people who never
> learned not to get cancer.
Are you arguing that there is no point to cognitive therapy to develop and reinforce
healthy thought patterns? This is just as unreasonable as suggesting that antidepressants
are unnecessary. Without cognitive therapy, many more people would be condemned to
recurring, chronic symptoms and/or a life-long dependency on medication.
> For someone with severe clinical depression, a course of psychiatric medication
> might just be the difference between living and dying - literally.
>
> --
> dnorthcutt at risinghawk dot net
Proper diagnosis and treatment, involving combined cognitive and drug therapies, usually
results in recovery. Personally I am well-acquainted with severe and disabling clinical
depression. I attribute my recovery so far to difficult changes in my belief system and
lifestyle. This cognitive process could not have been achieved without support from
psychiatric medication.
In the context of this previous discussion, I was arguing that antidepressants are not a
shortcut, just as insulin is not a shortcut. Some medications like these are necessary and
beneficial (whether or not any drugs can offer a benefit in heightening spiritual
awareness--otherworld journeys--I am not qualified to say). For some reason you
interpreted my argument in the reverse.
Silvan Bear